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ISPs Fight To Keep Broadband Gaps Secret
Aaron writes "Broadband Reports notes how Maryland was working on a law that would force ISPs to show exactly where they offer service and at what speed. The goal was to help map coverage gaps, since FCC broadband data is worthless for this purpose. Cable and phone company lobbyists have scuttled the plan, convincing state leaders the plan would bring 'competitive harm,' 'stifle innovation,' and even close local coffee shops. Of course the real reason is they don't want the public to know what criteria they use to determine the financial viability of your neighborhood — as they cherry-pick only the most lucrative areas for next-generation services. The Center for Public Integrity is trying to obtain the unreleased raw FCC penetration data, but these companies are also fighting this tooth and nail."
Provide some "test your download speed here" app, collect zip code & ISP of person testing, map results. If one can garner enough mindshare, one could build this map without forcing the ISP's to disclose anything. Reverse engineering, in a manner of speaking.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Shouldn't the ISPs roll out innovative service in areas where it is likely to catch on, and not areas where it is likely to be unused? I'm all for the ISPs having to commit to/document the speeds they're offering, however. Furthermore, can't you call an ISP and ask if they have service in a certain area at the moment?
Good thing we gave them $200 Billion http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060131/2021240_ F.shtml
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I am sure once more "City Folk" move out by where I live, broadband will come flying in and those poeple will only have waited maybe a year and think it is "Amazing how fast broadband came here!"
You're sitting outside the broadband donut, but the same problem exists inside the donut hole. We're apparently never going to have our lines upgraded to support DSL, etc.
Apparently, our subdivision is too close to low-income areas. We were among the very last in town to get cable internet access, and we were literally right across the street from the cable company's center of operations. (I could have run ethernet through the storm drains and not been out of spec!)
This only covers the companies that already have penetration down to a partcular user, so it hides newer companies (especially since a lot of loyalty tends to accrue in this unless you're referring strictly to dialup-to-DSL conversion).
I wish that people wouldn't be such leftist nidjits (but I repeat myself). The way that technology becomes available is that it is first offered to the rich. The rich pay huge prices to get the latest and greatest technology, which of course signals how rich they are. For example, the Tesla Roadster. The company uses those high prices to pay back the R&D. Unfortunately (for them) they soon run out of rich people to sell to. They then accept lower profit margins (but higher sales) by selling to the middle class and then the poor, in turn.
If you interrupt this process by forcing them to sell at lower profit margins to a wider population earlier, they won't be able to pay for the R&D costs, so they won't bother creating new technologies.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Has anybody here successfully negotiated a franchise agreement which specifies universal coverage, especially in more rural communities?
A friend pointed out to me that the companies running these networks only have so much money to invest, so to the extent that they're allowed to, they will *always* invest money in areas with higher returns over areas with lower returns, which means there's *never* going to be rural investment while they have other opportunities and no requirements. Phone service and electric service are everywhere because they have to be and that's good for society. This is one case where the guiding hand seems to be important.
I know innumerable folks around here who would happily pay the monthly bill, if only the [cable/phone] company would run a cable up the street. The streets aren't that long, the population isn't that sparse, and the net is short-term profitable -- only it's less profitable than running FiOS in urban centers.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
You cant really determine a set area dependant on a location speed test, The big they they seem to be after would be the gaps in broadband not exactly the connecting speed. I know of a few outer lying areas in my town where if you lived 50feet to the left or right you would be able to get service. I would find the best user submission would be done through rural and outer lying areas of a city.
Welcome to capitalism. Every corporation does that. That's why you don't see a "The Sharper Image" in the middle of Compton. You sell your product in markets that are going to buy it.
Believe it or not, companies are out to make money. That means not providing residential fiber to nowheresville, UT.
Can you tell me a business that doesn't place a target on certain demographics, can't see GAP putting
a store in the middle of an Amish community. Why on earth would an ISP spend capital to offer the latest
and greatest tech based services to a community where they have 100 ADSL/Cable clients versus the area
that has 10,000?
There are only two steps in the gathering of ultimate knowledge. Open your eyes and, RTFM!
And how is any of this "leftist"?
This may be news to you, but the technology is rather old. Look at other countries that have deployed better tech than this YEARS ago.
This is all about squeezing the maximum profit from the minimum investment
I live in a blue collar neighborhood in Anne Arundel County, MD. I just had FIOS installed about a month ago.
When I am at home I can surf the web with Verizon's 15/2MBps service. And yes, speed tests show it is true.
The neighborhood is decent, but not where I would have thought Verizon to 'target' for higher level of service if that was their plan. I think it came down to the cost of the old copper phone and DSL network costing money to run. Sure the upgrade to fiber isn't cheap, but it should save them in the long-run when everyone is operating off of fiber. Add on top of that the money that Verizon can now make by selling TV service and I doubt they are intentionally keeping it away from anywhere.
I suspect my neighborhood was just easy to install to (near a CO or whatever).
Hopefully, some of the cost savings will come back to the customer over time and as Verizon gets their backbone infrastructure upgraded to support it the bandwidth to your house should skyrocket.
Glad to see the world is still convinced that universal broadband is a) cheap, and b) a right. Got news for you, it is neither, and this bill is such a complete and utter waste of time. Want to know why you can't get broadband? Because you live in the middle of nowhere! Here is how it works.
DSL only goes so far along the copper wire from the DSLAM in the phone company central office. If you are past 11-12000 feet, you can kiss ADSL goodbye, past 18000 ft, you can forget about SDSL. If you live further than that, no amount of, "we are expanding into your area" is going to happen. Unless the LEC builds a new CO, closer to you, and has all of your copper terminate there instead of the old place, then, you might be able to get DSL. But for the most part, if you can't get DSL now, you can't get DSL ever.
Cable costs thousands of dollars to grant access to an entire street, whether it has houses on it, or not. Generally, cable companies, in this area at least, have always been willing to build out for any customer with the cash in hand. If it is rural, they want you to help cover the installation cost. Buckeye Cable in NW ohio generally says, "if it is not a densely populated area for us, we need $10,000 up front to guarantee a return on our investment." Heaven forbid they make money, heaven forbid they not build out for one customer, at huge expense to themselves, so they can earn 69.95/month for basic cable and inet service off of one, maybe two customers.
If you live in the middle of nowhere, either find a solid WISP, fork over the cash for expensive telecom, or quit your bitching. It is not the faceless phone company's fault that you can't get the same internet as someone in the burbs can. No amount of putting all this data on a map is going to change any of this.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
The fight in the modding reflects the truth in the comment - the reality of wealth is uncomfortable.
If broadband providers were able to openly and fairly compete on quality of service alone? If everyone had equal access to multiple providers at high speeds without any reference to where they were physically located or how affluent their neighbors were?
Wouldn't it be nice if the services were completely open and yet blocked spam, viruses, and malware? With just a little bit of intelligence so that ports were blocked for bad things and open for good things?
Wouldn't it be nice if this service cost no more than it actually cost to provide the service, perhaps with a minimal profit for the provider but not too much?
How about if the Canadian government (always better than the US at social programs) came in and provided broadband internet service to everyone in the US?
Yup, it would be nice. Take another toke and dream on.
The cable company told my father that they'd sell him a cable modem if he could arrange to pay the cost to run the cable up the road he lives on. Even splitting the cost over all the houses on the road, it was still not reasonable. Of course, this also explained why the cable company hadn't run it itself.
The joys of living in rural areas.
the unreleased raw FCC penetration data
I just snagged a torrent of Unreleased Raw Penetration Data 7. It was amazing.
Unless you want to charge for access based on how many people sign up for it.
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We have water, sewer, gas, electricity coming into our houses.
Internet is just another pipe.
Verizon and Comcast make themselves out to be technological wizards, but they are no different from the water and sewer. Give it a break. Stop playing with rates and speeds and just hook everyone up.
I don't want to hear about the technology challenges. Any fool can set out boxes and string wires between them. Problems with lightning, etc. have been solved. Running water and sewer is much more technologically challenging, getting the pressure right, ensuring capacity, etc. The Internet doesn't have to worry about gravity.
I think the point might have eluded you.
No one is saying that broadband providers CANNOT send an ad to people who make over $100,000. That would be an example of targeting a specific market. That is why your attempt at flippancy missed.
What is actually happening is that someone making over $100,000 is trying to find where he can purchase a specific product. And that information is being denied to him. By the companies providing product. And those companies are also trying legal maneuvers to prevent him from finding the product via other channels.
That's very strange behaviour for a company. Usually companies WANT to sell their products.
That behaviour becomes understandable when you look at it from the perspective of trying to extract as much money as possible from the existing infrastructure.
We're supposed to believe in competition and bringing more/better/cheaper products to the consumer. That's not what is happening here.
Secondly, ISPs have no business restricting what can be published about what is provided. Actually, it would be good if we could see not only the performance of the network provided but also how the downstream performance compares with the upstream pipes. (Are they at capacity? Are they oversubscribed, and if so, by how much? What do customers really get for their money? What services or benefits do the ISP get that are NOT passed on to consumers?)
This information can't possibly put them at risk. What puts ISPs at risk is incompetency so great that if anyone actually knew the details, the ISP's customers and possibly shareholders would launch an all-out rebellion. Secrecy for an established service - as opposed to one that is new and vulnerable to the unreasonable and unreasoning excesses of the market - exists only to hide the skeletons in the closet and brush the mountains of dirt under the carpet. It has no legitimate basis.
Now, that's very different from publishing internal documents on why certain decisions were made or other internal matters. Those things probably should stay confidential within the corporation. I think it would be a mistake to confuse information that is of genuine value in making a sensible decision with information that is only useful in slamming others for making what they believe to be sensible decisions.
(Having said that, if a newspaper's investigative reporter digs up such information as part of an investigation into fraud, abuse of consumers, or something similar, then that should be entirely fair game. Companies that use reasonable protections in an seriously unreasonable way - concealing anti-competitive actions, price-gouging, illegal wiretaps, unreasonable denial of service, etc. - then the company's interests should be secondary to the needs and rights of consumers and authorities alike.)
You'll notice I specifically mentioned what the ISP gets versus what the customers get - not just bandwidth but any service or benefit. If the ISP is passing on the costs of their upstream line(s) to their consumers, but the sum total of what the customers get is significantly worse than the sum total of what the ISP gets - whether that is protocols, service guarantees, bandwidth, latency, capabilities, fault-tolerance, or whatever - then the customer should have the right to know that what they are getting is substandard. The customer should not have the automatic right to know why - that should be a private matter for the ISP, unless the ISP decides otherwise. But customers cannot compare two options if they have no metrics by which to make such a comparison, which means there is no real market, no real customers - consumers, yes, but not customers, there are only smoke and mirrors.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The goal was to help map coverage gaps, since FCC broadband data is worthless for this purpose. Cable and phone company lobbyists have scuttled the plan, convincing state leaders the plan would bring 'competitive harm,'
hehehe. "You see, senator, perfect information is a fundamental underpinning of efficient capitalism. That is because perfect information supports perfect competition. That perfect competition, while great for the consumer, would harm us. That is, it would bring competitive harm, to us, the people who buy you boats."
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
So Comcast (and Charter Cable) want to be able to cherrypick where they provide internet service (and upgrade it/provide new services), but want to legally prevent AT&T from doing the same by providing a new service: IPTV.
It wouldn't bother me so much if corporations weren't such hypocrites. So much for being good corporate citizens.
I like how the article author uses the phrase "cherry pick the most lucrative areas" as if that is a bad thing. I might have used the phrase "compete in the most viable markets".
On the surface, this seems like a reasonable suggestion ... until you consider that any number of factors (like seeding BitTorrents or playing WoW) will skew the results.
Also, this method only provides a measure of what you're paying for. It can't provide any insight into what the service provider's network is capable of, or what packages/plans they're offering. If they're offering 3Mbps DSL, but you only contracted for 768k, your 768k "measurement" only indicates what you paid for. You can't extrapolate the rate-coverage details from the billing records.
The best you could do is make some inferences, with a healthy disclaimer about "nn-percent confidence level in the results." Credibility of the results would always be an issue.
Wow. Have a slice of bitter pie.
I've spent more than a decade running ISP services for residential customers. Both big metro and extremely rural areas.
These maps would be a *boon* to the ISP's who want customers, and are willing to invest for them. We had nothing but problems trying to figure out where we COULD find customers, because the rural telco was actually doing well running lines. But they were extremely poor with giving out that information. Heck, I would have taken the information just to know where they put their DSLAMS so I could target OTHER areas they weren't.
Bottom line, rural does not mean "more than 20 miles between humans" - there are areas that have the density to support expansion. The problem is, it is tough to justify.
THAT is the real reason you don't see it going rural. It is indeed a situation of "Hmm I can pay $10k to drop a DSLAM and equipment to service a potential of $20k a month, --OR-- I can drop that SAME equipment, in an area that will support $75k/mo".
The equipment is under-powered and will need to be upgraded, but in every case that situation is a potential I was told: "Well hell my boy, we would LOVE to have that problem"... and when they DID have that problem it took a while to actually fix it.. profits ruled the roost.
As far as I am concerned, compel them to publicly post the information. Without it, there will be nobody providing service in those areas. There is no reason the public has to suffer and wait until they are "ready" (ready in this context means: "we have exploited all of the higher margin areas, time to start scraping the sides & bottom of the barrel")
-bs
I have to say I'm ashamed to be from and live in the state of Maryland. I would have loved to see this bill pass, where I am (MD/DE line) I am lucky to have cable. Unfortunately it's only been around for 2 - 2.5 years, what sucks is just over the state line in Delaware, Verizon is rolling out FIOS.
First, you have a pipe going to an end node; it has a top-end, given protocols, in each direction, else it's symmetrical.
Then you have a neighborhood. Each home/business can be serviced by BoPL, FTTP, cable data, DSL, satellite (think HughesNet), or even simply tip-and-ring. Go ahead and assay *that*. Take each provider, then assay what their actual aggregate non-cached throughput is (or does cache count?), then assay the community, region, political subdivisions, etc.
This isn't easy. A few have proposed taxonomies to describe what it all means, but so far, with the US DOC and the NTIA shrinking in budget and size, it's unlikely to be able to be accurately assessed-- even if there wasn't pressure from ISPs and others to prevent this.
The devil of the details, even if it can be accurately described, then could easily become the basis to make inarticulate marketing observations about the 'competition'. Best the bold face lies we have now that now one believes, rather than the subtely ambiguous yet still inaccurate ones that might ensue.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I've never really run into problems until we've started to look at buying a house. Both the missus and I want to live "out in the country", ie, not in a subdivision, with some land for ourselves. We want some room to stretch. But as we're looking at places, house after house has a small satellite dish, and one place I called the cable company about they said they didn't go out that far. DSLReports has some mapping info, but it's far from complete and useful.
How is it 2006 and we still have widespread tech gaps in mid-Michigan? I mean, we're not in *that much* BFE. We're 20-30 minutes from major towns. If cable's not here yet, how long will it be before Fiber and the like? Of course DSL doesn't work out here, either. After broadband in college, and apartments I've lived in, I'm supposed to go back to dialup???
We really should be more understanding of the hardship this would cause ISPs...
c ompensation.html?.v=3
...it is a small wonder as to why I cannot get better than 768kbps/384kbps (down/up) with my Verizon ADSL in Southern California.
i.e. Verizon CEO Pay Valued at $20.2M in '06
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070319/verizon_executive_
The keen will notice from the article that Verizon's shares rose 24 percent during 2006.
The keener will can google that Verizon's shares FELL 26 percent during 2005 wherein the CEO made around $19M.
Ahh, but I can b**ch all day about 10 year old ADSL technology. This article highlights that I should be grateful for my measly kbps.
The FCC isn't asking for much, but if they really gave a damn (read: had any power) then what would be necessary is a minimum broadband requirement and a commitment for funding from the gov't for blanket coverage at a standard rate.
I am living in Japan at the moment, and the Japanese gov't currently has a "100% fiber coverage" policy in place that requires that any customer that desires to have fiber-to-home service pays $0 before the fiber enters their property. You can have 100mbps symmetric fiber anywhere in Japan for about $150 (installation and terminating the raw fiber into the equipment) and $60 a month there after.
Are we supposed to be mad that broadband providers don't install their services in areas where they're not likely to sell?
Seems to me that *not* setting up shop in those areas is the smart move.
Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
I am so fed up with high speed internet!
I am ready for a choice! For those that think that 2 high speed internet providers == choice, check this out. I had 2 providers of high speed (Southwestern Bell (SBC) and Comcast)
SBC Bought AT&T (Now AT&T.)
Time Warner bought Comcast. (At least in my area)
AT&T and Time Warner are partners!
So my two choices are AT&T (DSL) or Time Warner (Cable) and they are in bed with each other. Look it up...
I hope they get them to open the records. Let the light of day in and let us see just where they are and how they have struck "Deals" to divvy up the markets!
You mean...if you interrupt this process...by creating a free market, where companies must compete against each other...and information is available to the public about the costs and benefits of each companies' service, so that consumers may make informed decisions...
Make no mistake. American broadband is not a free market. The telcos like it that way.
:(){
Why wouldn't they cherry pick lucrative areas?
Would you rather try and sell something to a few people that you know won't buy it, or to a lot of people that probably will?
Question everything
My parents live a very rural part of Idaho. 22 miles from the nearest town (and by town, I mean one of 700 people. The next closest is 36 miles in the other direction. Albion telephone provides the phone service to the area. I figured he would never see broadband before 2010... and even then it would have to be in some wireless/satellite form. The good folks of Albion telephone spent some serious time putting on and taking off various things in the phone switching boxes in the path to the house. Long story short, they figured out how to get DSL broadband stretched several miles beyond the normal limit. And the cost? Same as if he had been in town. Where he used to be lucky to get a 26.4k connection, it's nearly 500k.
The small companies know how to treat small customers. They know you personally and care. To Verizon/Sprint/AT&T - you're just a number with a dollar sign behind.
The FCC is a tax funded entity. With the exception of data that would compromise national security, they should be obligated to make all data publically available.
Too bad if the data makes the cable companies look bad. It's their fault for making (obstensibly) smart business decisions, now they'll have to defend their decisions.
It would be nice if just once they'd come out and say "Look, that block is a ghetto full of poor people who're on welfare, do you really think we're going to get a return on investment by wiring the whole place? At best we'll end up with tons of people who'll get service and never pay their bills!"
It's not fair and possibly it might not be right, but in a market driven economy, you live by the blade, but die by the bullet.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
Well, what your saying is actually the cause. The reason we allow them to do this is because we believe that you have a right to conduct business any way you see fit within legal limits. The fact that its also profitable is just clear sign that the free market works. The ISP's should stand up and say "Yes we do offer higher speeds to more wealthy areas and we are going to continue to do this until the poorer areas can afford our services." instead of hiding behind the stupid reasons they are giving.
I don't see this as being different than wanting to build a shop on nice downtown real estate rather than the ghetto slums.
I hate how some people today think there is something wrong with making money.
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
Considering I live in MD, Southern MD, to be specific, I would LOVE to know what broadband providers are nearby. Comcast has an exclusive lock on my region, and to make things worse, we have an ongoing return-path/upstream signal issue that has, so far, been traced back to the main tap that they've grudgingly done a few tweaks to. Likely just to get us to shut up. Yet the problem keeps coming back. Verizon and their vaunted Fios service is no where to be found. Hell, we don't even have DSL from Verizon available. When I actually called them up on this, the decision was made to avoid upgrading our local CO and go straight to a fiber upgrade in another few years.
Really, Verizon could come down here and own Comcast simply because it'd give people a choice for once. Choice is a GoodThing(TM). So what are they waiting for?
Guess I'll have to write my reps on this one...
If I'm Verizon and I'm having to put a $1000+ worth of fiber terminating equipment on the outside of a house I'm going to put it in markets where I have a chance to make the money back not have it stolen.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
A round-about way of saying that some people value some things above broadband.
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It makes perfect business sense if you're a DSL or a cable outfit to ignore less-populated areas. The cost of developing wired broadband is very high - digging fiber, installing DSLAMs or cable concentrators. DSL and cable have an approximate 5 mile radius (wire distance, not line of sight) per pop. Doing this in rural areas will eat your lunch, since potential customer density is low, unless you count internet-savvy livestock.
Wireless broadband companies on the other hand can make a killing in rural areas because equipment costs are much lower, and your typical range per pop is 15-20 miles.
--- sig moved for great justice.
"Big Corporations Can Do No Wrong. Big Corporations Can Do No Wrong. Big Corporations Can Do No Wrong. At least 'til I cash in my 401(K)."
If they map it, the WiFi guys know where to drop in a next-gen WiFi (WiMax?) node for a couple hundred bucks and take 100% of the market.
:)
And if you need to know before buying a house (something noone with a brain would do until the housing market bottoms out in 3 years) just goto the local school, ask the science teacher if they teach creationism. If they do, you're NEVER GETTING BROADBAND.
Everything else should be OK
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
I don't understand why everyone is concentrating on the economic factors and nothing else. Watching Canadian society change in the last 10 years as our regulated telcos and cable companies rolled out thousands of Gbps in bandwidth across the country to all but the most rural farms has been simply amazing. The Internet is a medium. Just like it's a benefit to a government to have televisions and radios in every house in the country, it's a benefit to have high-speed Internet as well.
My lifestyle has changed significantly. Other than the time my employer pays me to be in the office, I do what I want when I want. I don't have to worry about remembering to record a television program I'm not around to watch; someone else will do it and I can download it later. Or go to the video store and rent it on DVD. I don't tune into the evening news; RSS feeds come straight to my desktop. The CBC has become the same Juggernaut on the Internet as it remains on public airwaves. Public transit is filled with people texting and e-mailing each other on the way to work: even commuting time is productive now. Our society truly does work smarter, not harder. Using my PC and network and a few automated tasks has made keeping current a natural state, not something you need to work at.
But American society seems stuck in it's rut of being a TV Nation. Sorry, but television is too slow and prescriptive. I need to watch the show at the same time as everyone else and be exposed to the same mind-numbing advertising (or remember to set up my recording device). Political campaigns stick to traditional media, as do the pollsters who monitor the results of the campaign. Plus, there's no good search feature. There's a whole new medium to conquer for the government who's progressive. Ours already owns our Internet and the results have been truly beneficial, IMO. America as a whole can certainly afford to catch up with the rest of the world in a big hurry. Unfortunately, your wealthy have decided to bicker and negotiate for top dollar rather than take the opportunity to provide a new opiate to the masses.
"Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
My father in-law-lives in a densely populated, if not particularly affluent, Baltimore neighborhood. Not long after he moved in, he got DSL through Verizon (the local phone company). After a few weeks, it suddenly cut out. When he called their tech support, they informed him that Verizon did not offer DSL in his neighborhood, and never had.
After quite a bit of runaround, eventually, he got someone who said they'd fix it, and the it came back on again (without anyone ever coming out to the site, mind you). A few weeks later the same thing happened. And the same response -- "Oh, sir, we won't have DSL in that area until next year."
Came back eventually and stayed back, but it was a good illustration of perhaps one of the reasons they don't advertise their real coverage -- because they don't even understand it themselves.
jf
All telcos have corporate value statements. My contract has been bought by 1 of them with a statement that says, "mean what you say, say what you mean and be honest, especially with our customers."
Hiding facts doesn't seem so honest to me, but I'm simple that way. Perhaps one of their lawyers could explain it to me?
Creating a Broadband Map of America that clearly shows what is available, what speeds, at what costs in every part of American is a crucial FIRST step to providing high speed internet to all Americans (we also need to increase the FCC definition of high speed from the ridiculously low 200 kbps). We also need Public Policy to make it happen. Of course companies will cherry-pick the most profitable areas. That's why we need tax incentives, public/private partnership and other programs to make sure there is build out everywhere. We already have the Universal Service Fund. It could be redirected to help fund high speed broadband in communities that are not "high profit." The internet is becoming a necessity, not a luxury. So much education and so many government services require the internet that it no one should be left out. For more proposals on this check out http://www.speedmatters.org./