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Rock Band As the Costly New MTV?
With the announcement of Rock Band, fans of the Guitar Hero series are well and truly pleased. Despite the fact that GH controllers will work with the game, with all the peripherals the game is going to be ridiculously expensive, assuming you want to get an entire band together. "Specifically, the 'Rock Band Wireless Guitar Controller' will retail at $79.99 (40 quid approx), the standard 'Rock Band Guitar Controller' at $59.99 (30 quid approx), the 'Rock Band Drum Set' $79.99 and the 'Rock Band Microphone' at $39.99 (20 quid approx)." Beyond that, though, Kotaku's Brian Crecente takes a look at the game in a broader context, wondering aloud if the game will be a new version of MTV ... or at least, a new version of the way MTV used to be. Introducing new bands, songs, and sounds to consumers via videogames seems like a fairly natural way of trying things.
I don't think this is specific to Guitar Hero. EA has been including/promoting new music in this way for years through their EA TRAX series (Yellowcard, the bravery, etc) which are included in games like the Burnout series.
Videogames and interactive media in general are the new MTV, not just one game.
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you forgot to throw in the $4.99 "Bic" controllers for the audience watching you. When a ballad comes on they need the proper "light and sway" technique!
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So if games will be the new mtv, how long until geeks can get cheap laughs by saying "Thats like guitar hero 8 playing MUSIC"?
Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
Harmonix hasn't confirmed any of the prices posted by EB/Gamestop. Not saying it won't be that expensive, but those prices are "pure speculation".
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Or for an additional $199.99, you put up a webcam and record your band in action, upload to YouTube, and that would be the new MTV.
Virtual Betting on Facebook for non-geeks.
But a retail nightmare.
It looks great on paper, really great, but I don't think people are going to spend 2-300 dollars on a video game. Games with one unique peripheral have trouble catching on.
This may be a huge flop.
I play drums and guitar, and I cannot imagine why anyone who can do so would want to do so "fake" in front of the TV.
Sure, these games are good for the market of people who would normally buy a $50 guitar and never learn... but really...
They're even more pointless than sports games. At least there are physical, social, and weather barriers stopping you from playing real basketball...
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I can't understand the excitement over these games either. If you're going to put hours and hours and hours into pretending to play an instrument, why not put those hours into actually learning to play the instrument?
On the other hand, pretending to play an instrument and "is this the new MTV" really are a couple sentiments that belong together.
Until you can include a box of vapid, angst ridden 20-somethings whining about themselves this will simply be unable to compete with the quality entertainment that is MTV.
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Never underestimate the apathy of consumers! Your customers, however, are more likely to enjoy learning about new bands they can listen to and perhaps go to concerts of and purchase albums of.
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Let's all settle in for a couple hundred comments telling people to just learn the instruments! Every article I've ever read on Guitar Hero, etc. has been laden with that sort of drivel... Come on, the purpose of this game is to jump right into the experience without stumbling over "Mary Had A Little Lamb".
Tell me something...it's still "We, the people"... right?
In today's Penny Arcade, Tycho shared some similar thoughts about the game being a venue for new talent. http://www.penny-arcade.com/
I don't think it's very likely that Rock Band will include tools of a high enough quality to create serious music, especially since its a console game. Allowing people to upload their own songs requires tons of regulation (for obscenity, copyright infringement). It seems far too early to tout this game as the Next Big Thing for music. It'll be like Guitar Hero, with more instruments.
Personally, I think the new MTV already exists in MySpace (and to a lesser extent YouTube). There have already been numerous artists whose popularity on these sites has landed them record deals. Its a better breeding ground for new bands: there is much more infrastructure for rated and discovering related talent to what you like, especially when you factor in that all the legitimate rock stars have MySpace pages for their bands. New music videos are premiered there. Concerts are announced "secretly" for MySpace fans, with tickets only purchasable via the site. And since MTV (and now MTV2) almost never show music videos any more, this is where people go to see them.
I can't wait to see someone hack a Real Doll into a USB Groupie.
There is a war going on for your mind.
On the other hand, it's a way for someone like me (who is tone deaf) to pretend to play a guitar and not sound completely horrible. If 4 years of band practice didn't solve my tin ear, but I can still rock out in Guitar Hero.
I read the internet for the articles.
Ok, two things.
Number one: You KNOW that they're not going to allow midi hookups. Or at least I feel you should know, if you're thinking about it much. Given the history of gaming and peripherals, I'd rate that as VERY wistful thinking.
But on to your other point, of hoping it is more "real"... How "real" is it exactly that you want? That you have to actually play a real instrument well? (Which is what it sounds like you're moving towards?) If you are a person capable of doing that (which it sounds like you are) then you don't NEED THIS as a game.
The purpose of most games is for a chance to pretend that you are something you're not, and act under a different set of rules than normal. Counterstrike, you get to pretend to be a swat-team member or a terrorist. Normally society frowns on people running around with guns and shooting each other. But here's a make-believe way we can try it out and have fun!
Well, guitar hero is for people to pretend that they can play guitars and are rock stars. It serves its purpose remarkably well. It is SQUARELY aimed at people who can't play guitar, but enjoy the fantasy of being on a stage, "wailing" on their "axe". I think it is safe money that "Band" will be similar, allowing some game-mechanic that maps well onto music, so that people can pretend to be playing in a band. (The only toss up is the vocal, which I'm expecting will be sharing a lot of technology from kareoke machines.)
The thing though is... The fact that its not more "real" isn't its weakness, but its strength. It puts a plausible, rock-feeling experience into the hands of a bunch of people who wouldn't otherwise get one.
If you actually ARE one of the people who can play drums and guitar, then you don't NEED this game to be more real. If you want the next level up for reality, then all you have to do is go find a couple of similar people and make a REAL band, which as people seem to never tire of pointing out, is far more rewarding anyway.
Bonus points for yelling "Freebird!" Even more bonus points if the track currently playing is not by Skynyrd.
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That's not what I said at all, and I even addressed the point you make, but nice flame AC! Keep up the good work!
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That's sorta what I was aiming for - GH1 was really sorta braindead. If the band one is a step up (not really towards reality, but more actual fun like GH2 is) I'm all for it.
Like some people keep saying "why play guitar hero when you can play guitar" it's one of those "why play gran turismo when you can actually drive" things.
Maybe because it's a game?
Games are fun?
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
Well, today, sure, but, back "in the day"...they actually did play music videos, and they were often pretty trend setting.
Ah...the good old days of "I want my MTV..."
*sigh*
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
You have some valid points there -
:D
I know midi is way out there - but it would be fun
I'm looking for something that's more like the experience of playing Tekken at an arcade, less the experience of playing it at home. The GH controller is cheesy, but still sorta gets the idea going. Like the duckhunt gun, it gets the job done and it's sorta fun. Playing FPS games with a standard controller is really lame. I just have this dread thinking of the rockband drum kit. What, is it a little controller with 4 or 5 brightly colored buttons, ala Simon or Mastermind? That would suck.
Does that help? I'm not looking for an electronic drum kit here (have one, thanks), I'm looking for a decent interface that allows you to "play" and doesn't pull you completely out of the game. Race games with a wheel totally beat the hell out of race games with a standard controller, ya know?
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
As a musician who plays in bands (and, admittedly, sucks at Guitar Hero despite being able to blaze a few sweet solos on my real axe), this is kinda sad. The amount of money totalled to buy this game, console and peripherals could just be spent on buying cheapo instruments (like most musicians begin with) and forming a real band where the songs you play aren't controlled by a game. It's much more rewarding and has just done so much for me. Imagine forming a console-based band, it's the musical version of cyber sex.
See, there's that too. I mean, I play guitar ok, but I certainly can't play Aces High, Killer Queen, or Howl at the Moon :D (though I drum better than I play guitar). The game aspect is just like anything else - it's there to expand your horizons for fun's sake.
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
This whole scheme assumes anyone interested in this has what, at least 4 friends who would be interested in coming over to play this with him.
Pfftt. LOOOOL
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
*Bark at the moon - my bad lol
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
I play 'real' bass, but I like guitar hero because I find it's a really good way to work on timing and rhythm without having to worry about the rest of the physics of the guitar. And it's fun too.
There are plenty of tone deaf guitar players out there. We call ourselves punk rockers.
Note to self: No more arguing with the faithful.
Actually it's exactly what you said when you addressed the point. Maybe you'd like to clarify what you meant?
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What, is it a little controller with 4 or 5 brightly colored buttons, ala Simon or Mastermind? That would suck.
I have trouble imagining it being much more, maybe something as sophisticated as the Donkey Kong Konga bongos with one little drum as the snare and a couple toms little bass drum. I have a hard time believing it would even resemble a drum kit's true diversity at only $80.
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I tend to agree...GH seems like more of an exercise in reflexes set to music, but if you are either 1. not a guitar player or 2. are, but don't consider this an extension of playing guitar, then I can see how it could be enjoyable (caveat: this opinion was formed playing GH at Best Buy for 10 minutes).
There was a game a decade or so ago called, I think, Mr Bones? It had 6 or 7 stock riffs that you controlled with the keypad, and you had to hit the buttons in a sequence that was musically 'pleasing' (the timing seemed right, the riffs seemed to flow together)...that was fun in a similar way...the music seemed more 'real' since you weren't playing along to a track, but it was more limited in what you could play (since there really weren't notes...just collections of riffs). I think there was a drum bit too, but I never got that far...stupid ice lake.
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The thing about Guitar Hero is that you are just matching buttons to elements on a screen. That is what makes it not really very "real"...
But if you played earlier games from Harmonix like Frequency, they supported modes that really did let you create music. You had fewer options note-wise than with a full keyboard, but many tracks of instruments - you could come up with some really different stuff that way. That's what I expect to see out of Rock Band, and even if it's fewer notes than you could get out of a real guitar if you are choosing among several notes and choosing when they play, along with what instruments play when... that is real.
I'm sure playing the game will be the same, but people creating remixes which are essentially whole new songs is what excites me.
Freezepop even had a remix contest where fans did remixes on a Freezepop song "Science Genius Girl" in Frequency and submitted it to the bad for evaluation, the winning track was included on a CD with some of their other music.
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Maybe because it's a game?
Games are fun? Well, Guitar Hero is a far cry from a simulation (at the level that games like Flight Sim, Gran Turismo, and the like try to get to) of guitar playing. I'm fine if you want to say "It's a fun game," in the same way that arcade-style racing games are fun. But if someone is playing guitar hero "to get better at guitar" I think they'll likely find very few skills they develop in the game will transfer over.
Also, I'd just like to point out that the difference in cost between "buying a video game + accessory (GH controller)" and "buying a guitar and some sheet music" are quite a bit lower then the differences between "buying a video game + accessory (Steering wheel)" and "Buying a [insert a/multiple $100k+ cars here] and a day at a race track." And don't forget that the potential risks of misusing a high-end car in a race situation have far more repercussions then misusing a guitar.
Those are the two big points of simulations, really. Let you try something you can't or won't normally do because of financial reasons or potential risks. Guitar Hero only has a (relatively, compared to GT/etc) small financial incentive compared to getting a low-end guitar and practicing on that (if a guitar simulation is your goal).
1. I don't see why anyone who knows how to play these instruments would want to play fake instruments. That was my main point.
2. I can only understand playing fake instrument games if you are the type who wouldn't want to learn the real thing. Inferred from #1.
3. I explicitly pointed out the difference between other games and instrument games.
That was my original post in a nutshell.
If you're going to sit indoors moving your hands on a fake guitar, why not do the real thing? To play paintball or do kung fu you need physical stamina, you need to get off your fat ass, and you need to find people (aka friends) to partake in the activity with you. You need absolutely none of that to learn an instrument.
To further illustrate what I'm saying, pretend there is a video game for virtual masturbation. Now, virtual sex makes sense, because you'd need to find a partner and get all sweaty. For virtual masturbation, you need to do pretty much the same amount of work as real masturbation.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
Here's where I disagree with you.
I play the guitar and I play Guitar Hero. It has nothing to do with it being a fake instrument, since it's just a controller. It's about the competition and the cooperation. It's a game, so it's a whole different type of stimulation from playing an instrument. There is actually very little overlap, aside from some manual dexterity requirements. It also happens to be a very good game.
If they made a game about masturbation and it happened to be a good game, I would play it. I wouldn't expect an orgasm from it, just like I don't expect to make music by playing Guitar Hero.
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You could probably get at least a basic drum kit going at that price using the cheap parts they use already. Three toms, a snare, a bass, high-hat, and crash and ride cymbals. Just think along the style of electronic drums except they won't be as extendable obviously.
:D
Now if they did allow extensions or at least a MIDI input, us musicians could plug in and have even more fun!
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Many of us who play guitar still really love Guitar Hero. Yes, it's totally different, but in a ridiculously fun way that allows you to share your hobby with people with no discernible musical talent.
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During much, if not all, of the first five years of MTV, it was not a commercial success, in that advertising revenues did not defray costs. There were also other music video outlets, though the others were weekly programs (90 minutes late Friday nights on NBC) or three hour blocks on Friday and Saturday night (who had Night Flight, was that US Network?). At the time there was this concept of the world premiere video, which really meant that one channel would have it exclusively for a 6-13 week period (the effective life span of a hit). When MTV launched, i arrived at a time when US record companies did not consider making promotional videos, but the English bands and indie artists had been. For the Europeans, I hear that music videos (which were advertising) would play in movie theaters. For US indie artists, it was about mixing avant gard video art with music. Between the lack of videos for current US hits, exclusive deals which denied some hits to MTV when the songs were on the chart and the necessity to fill 24 hours, MTV was playing anything which meant English bands and avant garde (sort of) US artists. What happened was that the weird stuff, which had no prayer of getting of the radio, sold records. And sold records where the cable provider had MTV as a choice. Look up Barnes and Barnes Fish Heads. I also think that except for that cheesy video of the lead singer with the goofy haircut and one finger keyboard technique, there would have been no US hit for Flock of Seagulls' I Ran.
Something else about the first few years of MTV, though I don't have any way to judge whether this had any significance, there was no West Coast feed, so those of us in the Pacific time zone could watch the weirder and low rotation stuff at 10 and 11 at night.
About 1984, the exclusive world premiere deals had faded away; by not committing to 24 hours of video, the other network's programs had fallen by the wayside and MTV was the only game in town. The record companies, seeing proof that videos on MTV sell records, started trying to get their videos onto MTV (instead of trying to figure out how to get MTV to pay them for their videos) and a new generation of pop superstars were created by virtue of the way they wrote good pop hooks and had entertaining videos. Madonna, Michael Jackson, Van Halen, Bruce Springsteen all had breakout records in that time period and due to MTV.
Oh, as for cool bands: MTV was never about cool bands, except for fringe shows that had more personalized programming (though even those folks were, based on the videos I recall, picking the least objectionable from the list of allowed items.)
Well now I just feel obliged to link to today's (technically yesterday's now, where I live) Penny Arcade that discusses just such a lighter peripheral for audience members
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/04/04
As someone who knows how to play various instruments (having been in band/orchestra for many years), I will say that playing an instrument when you're good at it, can be a lot of fun. However, there's also the years upon years of experience of practice that it takes. And even then, it's obvious that most folks just won't ever have the talent that rock stars have.
On the other hand, with much less practice, I can play a video game that simulates the skill involved in playing a musical instrument. It's immersive (crowds cheering for me) and I'm playing actual songs that I like (versus "Row row row your boat" for the first few weeks while learning a real instrument). Furthermore, since it's easy for me to pick up and learn, it's probably easy for my friends as well. So, in short time, my buddy and I can get in some awesome, and fun, guitar duos.
Of course Guitar Hero II should not be an actual replacement for learning guitar, but it was never meant to be. Just because it's impractical in that sense, though, doesn't mean it's a stupid idea of a game.
On a personal note, I have noticed that a lot of my fellow former-musician friends also have taken a liking to Guitar Hero. Your comments seem to imply that we'd be the first to realize that a game like Guitar Hero is a waste of time. It's actually the opposite. Since we've all understand how much time and energy it took to master our respective instruments (for myself, it was the violin and the trumpet), we know that it can take months, if not years, to get good enough at the guitar to even come close to playing some of the well-known rock songs. The decision ultimately becomes quite simple. I'll take rocking with Van Halen in only a few hours, thank-you-very-much.
-- jchenx
Granted, those games don't cost the $200-300 that people are estimating that the entire Rock Band set will cost, but I think that's pretty weird thinking in the first place. I have a bunch of friends who are excited about the game. We'll probably end up buying just the one edition of the game with the instrument that we want to focus on. It also helps that the game will be compatible with existing guitar controllers, so that actually reduces the cost quite a bit if you already have them.
-- jchenx
So yeah, if you're already good enough to be in a band, more power to you. Then Guitar Hero is just a cheap imitation. But for the rest of us, who don't have the time to learn guitar (especially enough to play these rock songs), I'll take the cheap imitation gladly, thankyouverymuch
-- jchenx
'Rock Band Wireless Guitar Controller' will retail at $79.99 (40 quid approx)
Cheap wireless guitar system: $99 plus the cost of the guitar below.
'Rock Band Guitar Controller' at $59.99 (30 quid approx)
Cheap real guitar: $99
Decent: Several hundred
'Rock Band Drum Set' $79.99
Cheap real drum kit: $200
Decent: Half a grand plus.
'Rock Band Microphone' at $39.99 (20 quid approx)."
Cheap mic: $20
With the exception of the mic, every piece is cheaper than the traditional version.
Total, to put a complete band together, for a pair of wired guitars, a drum set and mic, it's $240. That buys one starter guitar/amp set. To put those same real instruments together would set you back a thousand dollars plus by the time you added amps.
Granted, it's comparing apples to oranges:
You can't be as creative with the game as you can with real instruments - but then most people will never sound as good on a real instrument as they will in game and certainly won't get the instant reward.
The game looks likely to require microtransactions to add new songs - but then again, tab books are $19.99 each in many cases).
The game will likely never get you a record deal - but then how many people play instruments vs. actually get deals?
Real instruments don't let you play with people across the country and across the world - though some hardware/software solutions somewhat let you do that.
Neither is necessarily better or worse, different rewards for different value sets. If it's just about having fun, chasing the fantasy of being in a band even though you know it's just a fantasy, the controllers are a hell of a lot cheaper than any other option (besides air guitar).
If it still seems expensive, try getting in to hardcore flight simulations: $149 for basic pedals, $149 for a yoke, $199 for a throttle quadrant, $179 for head tracking.
I have difficulty with the solo - but yes, it is of course possible. I don't know that I'd call it "trivial" though. :) "I Love Rock and Roll" is trivial hehehe.
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
My wiimote and nanchuck can be a guitar, a set of drums, a banjo, a violin, hell some tamboreens, a cymbal, a screaming baby or just about any other batshit crazy instrument you could think up. Why bother designing a crap load of overpriced yet cheap instrument peripherals when they can just plop the game down on a Wii with a few inexpensive plastic apparatuses into which I plug my own already purchased wiimote/nanchuck and call it good for a fraction of the price.
I'm surprised I don't see more people defending the incredibly fun multiplayer mode. It's an addictive game and the more you play the better you can get. So battles between high level heroes are fun and intense. It doesn't matter that the game has little representation of actual guitar, it makes it easier to have high levels of competition. Sports games like Madden have huge cult followings, especially in terms of multiplayer tournaments (ESPN filmed a Madden Tournament), but it doesn't matter to them that hitting the square button doesn't fully represent tackling a 230 pound running back. As to the level of difficulty of the pretend instrument, that's what makes for closer, more intense finishes. Look at the success of Fusion Frenzy. I've been playing the game myself for a few months now and am a passable Expert player. However, I would love to see someone hit some of the songs on there perfect. While it's a easy (addicting) learning curve, there's not much of a ceiling. I only hope that Rock Band can bring the same ease of a learning curve and enjoyable addicting gameplay. I question as to how much room is needed for the game - Guitar Hero is a hit in the dorms, but can Rock Band fit? I imagine the aim is for a team satisfaction for getting perfect scores. GH2 tried this a bit with the institution of cooperative mode with one player taking lead and the other taking rhythm or bass. It was cool at first, but eventually the non-lead role was significantly less entertaining. Unfortunately I can't see how that could be changed, music needs a rhythm and bass position, but can Rock Band make those roles entertaining? That's one of my biggest questions, but I will forever be a firm supporter of Guitar Hero.