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First AACS Blu-Ray/HD-DVD Key Revoked
Thomas Charron writes "An update posted for Intervideo WinDVD 8 confirms that it's AACS key has been possibly revoked. WinDVD 8 is the software which had its device key compromised, allowing unfettered access to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD content, resulting in HD movies being made available via many torrent sites online. This is possibly the first known key revocation which has taken place, and little is known of the actual process used for key revocation. According to the release, 'Please be aware that failure to apply the update will result in AACS-protected HD DVD and BD playback being disabled,' which pretty much confirms that the key revocation has already taken place for all newly released Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs."
I don't completely understand what's going on here. And that's exactly my point. I don't want to understand. Does this breach disable any user's player until they update their hardware? Will some disks play and others not? (I'm kind of making this up, but I'm role-playing what most consumers are experiencing based on my limited anecdotal observations).
I don't want to know the ins and outs of the security of the media. I want it to work like the old CD players. I insert a disk, I watch a movie. Simple. Easy. Done.
I think above and beyond the hurdle of introducing a new format, ahem, two new formats, for DVDs this kind of hiccup could be fatal to the rollout. People are annoyed enough with little things (cables plugged in wrong way, audio/video receivers improperly configured, etc.), when it comes to having to update firmware to be able to play stuff they've paid for, they're going to be mad. And maybe some, maybe many are going to rethink their upgrade plans and find regular DVD okay enough. And maybe people who have been considering HD DVD will stay away in droves. Fingers crossed.
No one can deny how convenient this is for the customers. The companies love us.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
How many of you like to have your computers controlled by media corporations and Microsoft? Voting time is now. http://defectivebydesign.org/
so if WinDVD 8's AACS key gets banned, basically all WinDVD 8 has to do is issue a patch to give it a new key, so that future discs will work? seems like that would be something that would be hackable and exploitable... especially if other aacs keys are known, i imagine hacks would come out to change the program's aacs key to any known unblocked aacs key...
it's entirely possible that i have this all wrong.
this is what's more curious to me.. when/if a hardware player ever is compromised, what are you gonna do then? the content owner denies your access to their content.. you think the manufacturer will step up with an "oops, our bad; here's a new unit to play stuff.." har.
.. that might actually be one class-action suit i could hop on and enjoy, just to watch potential legal fallout. :)
i don't even know if this has happened with dvd or how possible it is.. but i have to think the potential is out there, and unless the unit has some sort of design foresight to resolve some issue (firmware updates to my bluRay player? and what kinda new 'security' hole is that?!?) i'd think you could be toast.
-r
-'fester
Update your software now because you are may be guilty of a crime.
What are the implications for hardware players? Will they now need to be updated, or does this key revocation only apply for WinDVD in particular. If so, does this mean that it would be possible to hack apart a hardware HDDVD/Bluray player and take its key? This doesn't seem like a very secure system if that kind of attack is possible.
Soo, what if PS3s key gets revoked? Would all the owners have to return their machine?
Particles, stuff that matters.
And the update must have the new key in it!
And we know how smart InterVideo have been about protecting the keys so far...
The fact of the matter is that if it can be decrypted and the user has physical access, there is *no way* to make "unbreakable" DRM. None. At all.
Especially on most modern CPU architectures where memory and the bus are unencrypted. The data *has* to go through RAM and over the bus.
Therefore there *is no protection*
It takes *one* decrypt to defeat their supposed purpose "keeping them dirty pirates from getting it" and this decrypt will *always* happen. But yet they waste millions in R+D money making ridiculously bad systems to try to prevent something that's physically impossible to prevent.
Spam a bunch of new disks with an update patch?
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
This is another new "Upgrade Cycle" that the (legit) consumer has to pay for in the end. How so? How long is WinDVD 8 going to be supported; aka how many patches are going to be issued for said software, also for how long.
It should be a lot more difficult to get the keys for a hardware player than for a software player. WinDVD made an easy target because it is running on a general-purpose computer, which means that the key is sitting there in memory at some point to be snooped out. It's not easy, I'm sure, to find that key among the many megabytes of code, but it's there.
A hardware player isn't a general purpose computer. I'm sure it's possible for somebody with the right hardware to snoop inside its memory (say, inserting a special thingamabob between the memory and the mother board that allows you to read all reads/writes as they go past), but it's not going to be readily available.
Presumably somebody will be the first one to do this, and that is sure going to be a bad day for both formats. People are prepared to upgrade their software; it happens all the time and it's a relatively painless process for most people. Upgrading your hardware is not going to be easy, and it may not even be possible. (I used to own a DVD player which was "upgraded" by downloading a patch, burning it onto a CD, and putting that in the machine, but I don't know if every DVD player supports that.)
If they start denying keys on hardware players, there will be a world of pain, but I don't expect this to shatter the world. They'll just advise everybody to download a patch with a new key.
Does anyone seriously doubt that there will be a day-zero crack of the new keys?
...and certainly not the last. Beware, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray consumers, you're in for a bumby road of software patches and exploits that move twice as fast!
(firmware updates to my bluRay player? and what kinda new 'security' hole is that?!?)
You may gawk at the idea, and though you are correct that it would probably present a security hole for hardware and networks aren't well protected, with more and more of the home becoming wired/wireless (TVs, toasters, media centers, stereo systems, the Wii/360/PS3) it won't be long before your cutting edge Blu-Ray players are also on-line 24/7, getting firmware updates while you sleep.
Thank you for using the word "customers" instead of "consumers." Consumers are force-fed; customers have a choice.
But therein lies the problem with this situation. The **AA cartels have purchased the necessary legislation to reinforce their monopolies. When they revoke a DRM key that effectively bricks your hardware player for future media releases, what are you going to do? They've cost-shifted the upgrade burden onto you, and since they own the entire distribution chain, you can't take your business elsewhere. I'm quite surprised that the media cartels haven't tried to mandate use of Scrip to purchase a lease for their items-that-shall-not-be-owned-by-the-customer. Long live the Company Store!
This is a perfect example of why monopolies are bad. This will resonate all the way down to Joe Sixpack in a form that he'll understand - "Damned 'new' movies don't play in my DVD player." He may not understand the ins and outs of DRM legislation, but he sure as hell knows what getting screwed by the establishment means.
"confirms that it's AACS key has been possibly revoked"
Well, I'm glad that's been confirmed...
If anyone really wants to piss off Sony, start a PS3 Linux project to build a PS3-based supercomputer that can be used to crack all of the Blu-Ray keys.
and if people just refuse to buy the product, they'll but legislation that gives them a hefty subsidy to 'protect a core intellectual property industry'. Meaning we all pay, but now don't get a product either. Ah corruption - can't beat it (literally).
FGD 135
If the player was already hacked once, the probability only goes up that it would be hacked again. Especially if a hardware level flaw was uncovered (i.e. a physical attack which was able to intercept the key as it is being read/used would make any new key given the device just as exposed as the last key).
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
The industry will never listen/read a bunch of slashdot posts and change. Now if every /. reader went out and bought a few Blu-Ray/HD-DVD's then returned them as unplayable and asked for money back--now that might start to get the industry's attention.
Well I would call the rattling of candybags, popcorn boxes and snickering of all those thai kids in the audience protection enough. Because that's what you get when you buy a crappy camcorded dvd on the black market. (okay so telesync removes distracting audience noises but please, the video quality..)
It's not so much a question of "how soon it will be available on the net and/or thai market", rather than "how soon it will be available on the net/and or thai market in a format that you can actually watch without having your eyes and ears bleed."
Oh and a simple point: a hardware drive was already hacked, it was actually the first method used to retrieve the hd/bluray-keys (check older news for the doom9 link). It doesn't matter how many updates the companies push out, the old hacked drive can still be used to retrieve keys from the new discs.
I don't know if it's done, but if they give each individual hardware player its own key, then there should not be any problem. The only system won't be able to play vids anymore is the one that was used to hack the key.
You'd be surprised, but AACS uses a pretty clever system for key revocation which can revoke a single key without having to change anything in players with a different set of keys.
The keys are nodes of a binary tree where the leaves are the individual keys per player. Each player has the keys from itself to the root node.
The movie itself is encrypted with a symmetric key which is then encrypted as follows:
Initially, it is encrypted using the root key. Every player can play it because it they all have the root node in their "key path".
When a player is to be revoked, the symmetric key is then encrypted log(n) times with the keys just not the revoked key's path.
It includes the key neighboring the revoked key so it doesn't get hurt, it includes the key neighboring the revoked key's parent so keys on that side don't get hurt and so on.
^_^
So when the key of your Samsung BD-P1000 is revoked, your player will no longer play any new disks that you buy. You will have to go out and buy a new player.
...VideoCipher II?
As quick as the satellite broadcasters changed keys, the hackers would crack and distribute them.
Cloned foods give the statement "We had that last week!" a whole new meaning.
This entire thread is complete bullshit. Keys are not revoked via a network jack. Keys are revoked by the simple act of releasing new discs that don't support them.
At least we'd be getting free movies out of the deal, and thereby completely defeating the point of the copy protection. I doubt spammers would be nearly as successful as they are if you had to pay thirty bucks a message.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
What happens when they release a new version of the software that you have to pay for? Say someone then cracks V8 again, will they release a free update or will everyone be expected to pay for V9 in order to watch new movies?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Even if it's not part of their job description to "install a camcorder where it can film the screen from above the heads of patrons and use a Y-cable to patch the sound directly to the camcorder", I can't imagine how anyone can pretend it's impossible for someone to arrange a special screening with the projectionist at one of the tens of thousands of movie theaters available worldwide.
Of course, this is not the case; there are likely other ways of updating firmware on "real" HD-DVD players, but they're likely to be less transparent to consumers.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Unfortunately, you're assuming that the memory holding the key is in a separate chip from the processor which will use it. These days, it's common for chips to have internal non-volatile storage (Flash). I bet (note: speculation) one of the design goals for AACS was to ensure that the key was never in-flight on a PCB trace. You can't probe a signal if it's routed internally in the silicon, never leaving the chip.
:(){
Oh, thats #$%#$% great, I can just see it now.
... ever. Honestly, I really don't want one of these things at all. With the cracking of CSS I have total rights to use the content I own on DVD. I won't quickly give that up for a few more lines of resolution and their draconian changable key system. Screw em'.
Instructions for continuing to be able to use your (friken expensive) player.
1) Use your computer to download the latest firmware.
2) Burn a CD/DVD (you sure as hell had better not need to burn a blu-ray or hd dvd disk!!)
3) Insert in you player and power cycle and hope the upgrade works and doesn't leave you with a brick.
4) Continue to pay a premium for content for your player knowing that you'll probably have to do this firmware shuffle at least twice a year.
or
Don't by a blu-ray or hd dvd player
I think the recording industry is going to be shocked, SHOCKED! at how well DRM free music it going to do on iTunes. Its the beginning of the end for DRM...
But what about the people who can't get high speed internet and only have dial up?
Or update some firmware, perhaps by disc? In any case, while updating a software player is trivial, therefore low cost, I'm really curious about how the manufacturers will deal with the logistical nightmare of updating thousands of hardware players.
^[:q!
I know that Microsoft has the Xbox 360 with the HD-DVD add-on drive, but surely they might have a bit of incentive to be in the "media centre" market where Vista is the focus of an HD home theatre? If there are only "hardware" solutions, they would be shut out. Could Microsoft afford that?
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
I was wondering, what if you bought a commercial disk and made a copy without protection (via copy circumvention in a country where fair use isn't demolished by the dmca, like in sweden), and then destroyed the original, and resold it as a "drm-free" version? No one can argue the content has changed... so doesn't this then fall under the right of first sale, which was upheld by the supreme court some time ago?
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of PS3 driven botnets.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
Having a network port is a mandatory feature for all HD DVD players, so updated keys and other updates can be easily delivered. It's mainly there for downloadable content (like adding subtitles in a new langauge for an existing disc).
Blu-ray, however, has networking optional, and most Blu-ray players don't have a port.
Yet another way in which the baseline functionality in HD DVD is much higher than Blu-ray.
My video compression blog
I mean, it makes sense. And while doing it many times, it probably helps to do it to many different chips, so you have differences to compare.
I can imagine this being very difficult, especially if the crypto engine is a small part of a much larger chip (like, an FPGA or something).
:(){
It still isn't a problem if you choose to run Vista. Turns out that the DRM in Vista isn't composed of little DRM gremlins that go and encrypt your media when you sleep. If you don't get media that is DRM'd, you aren't aware of it at all. Monitors without HDCP work just fine, HD video works just fine, MP3 encoding works just fine, etc. I'm sure that there might be issues if I decided to get media protected by the new DRM, but I'm also sure that it is my option not to. I can continue to use what I always have.
I really think that people on Slashdot don't understand what DRM actually is. To them, it is just a bad word. DRM=bad, and that's all there is they know about it. I certainly agree that DRM isn't useful, but it doesn't matter to me if people want to go and release DRM'd shit. I am free to not buy it. Thus far, I haven't seen an OS that forces DRM on all media, so it is a non-issue.
A few more lines of resolution?
720x480 interlaced video.
1920x1080 progressive video.
A few more lines?
Suppose it'd be even easier for you just to go cower into a small hole and ONLY support pre Macrovision VHS.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Yeah - for some reason, the security through obscurity on BSkyB's encryption seems to have mostly worked. I think there may be a softcam to allow people to use their valid cards and subscriptions on non-Sky hardware now, but it certainly seemed to take a long time to do...
Remember that players have individual keys. If a hardware player is revoked, it is only one specific physical player which is affected.
five ...
four
three
what? already? I didn't even finish the countdown.
Umm, they do NOT have to update every user. It simply means that players, worst case, cannot play any NEWLY manufactured movies. They 'mark' that key as bad, and remove its ability to decrypt newer content.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
AFAIK you are right. The VC II wasn't decryption-algorithm-hacked - the hackers simply found a flaw in the decryption processor architecture (a TMS7500 series, I think) that allowed the secret keys to be "tricked" out of memory. Something to do with a command to "check old key block segment against proposed new one" boo-boo. If you are allowed to ask all the questions you like about a secret number - one byte at a time -it doesn't take long to deduce it.
Old war stories....gotta love 'em.
Cloned foods give the statement "We had that last week!" a whole new meaning.
Or am I, like a Circuit City DIVX disk owner, just dropped, while the smiling business face smugly tells me to open my wallet again and buy another?
I need to know this kind of stuff BEFORE I open my wallet at the cash register. If its finicky technology, I had just as soon spend my hard-earned cash on something else.
I would rather spend my money on a day fishing rather than buying some piece of crap that gives me problems.
Life is just too short to have to deal with all these synthetically manufactured problems, deliberately designed into a product from the get-go.
When I actually spend my hard-earned money to buy thorns in my side, I consider myself even more idiotic than the folks who design and market such crappy stuff.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
Yep, just a few more lines. The original poster was correct. It's not a big deal like VHS->DVD was (random access, media doesn't degrade with repeated viewings, far better sound, menus and special features, no rewinding...). If you don't have a big screen TV, HD is absolutely worthless. My 27" TV is just fine with regular DVD and I don't need a theatre-sized screen in my living room.
Depends on the player, I'd suppose. Any that can have their firmware updated will more then likely, be able to be 'hot fixed' with a new key. However, a 99$ walmart special, could very well leave you with a DiVX player. But generally, I doubt a company would let it happen.
Basically, they punish the company who made the player be able to be compromised.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
Actually, why not? A key revocation doesn't render your player unable to play blue-ray or hd-dvd discs, and any of the disks that were made before the key revocation should continue to work. Unencrypted discs will be able to play indefinitely.
All current standalone HD DVD and Blu-Ray players are firmware updateable via CD.
You download the firmware update, burn it to a CD, and go. Or they mail you one, like Toshiba did with the numerous updates they've released.
Buh? I think the gp was alluding to the fact that no one except a few uber geeks have bluray or hddvd burners on their computers, and thus no one but aforementioned uber geeks would be able to burn a bluray or hddvd, and thus would be royaly fucked.
What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
Now if this statement is correct "An AACS licensed drive shall retain in non-volatile storage, the most recent Host Revocation List (HRL) data which it encounters and has verified."
So obviously there is an set ammount of memory for this, anyone know just how much this is on common consumer drives?
Basically my marijuana induced thought is... How long before that memory gets full?
And then what happens?
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
You do realize, I hope, that only the 0.1% of consumers who are technically savvy actually care about the actual resolution. Hell, I understand it, but I also know that DVDs look great on my 32" widescreen, and that's through a PS2. Progressive scan and a more natural aspect ratio do wonders, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay more money for slightly higher res and a content protection scheme so strict I'll be lucky to be allowed to play the discs I buy on any hardware I own. The extra resolution really isn't worth it. If the started doing HDMI or something, then maybe.
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
Why do you think that the use will have to do this "twice a year"? Do you really think that the people will hack a particular version of a particular BR/HDDVD player twice a year? Hacking WinDVD isn't that hard, it is probably harder today than it was before it was patched, but it is still probably possible given time and patience. How do you expect "the community" hack the Samsung DVD players? Twice a year?
Well, perhaps we are just seeing your ignorance here...
This is a perfect example of why monopolies are bad. This will resonate all the way down to Joe Sixpack in a form that he'll understand - "Damned 'new' movies don't play in my DVD player." He may not understand the ins and outs of DRM legislation, but he sure as hell knows what getting screwed by the establishment means.
And the establishment will respond thus:
Yeah, that copy protection sure is painful, huh? Goddamn those freedom hating movie pirates for making us put it on there. You know those guys fund terrorists? It's true. The 911 hijackers paid for their flight training with funds made hawking pirate copies of the Phantom Menace. You want to help fight terrorists, don't you Joe? So you don't mind this anti-piracy/anti-terror stuff, do you? Great. Here's a flag. Go back to sleep. [/channeling inner hicks]
"I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
Ok, I'm assuming most people who would care would have HDMI on a HDTV, since HDMI is pretty much required to play it. I could understand why you wouldn't purchase a higher def capable media, if your stuck with a non HD capable TV. Instead, considering spending the money on a TV which has a higher resolution then, say, a pre VGA monitor.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
So when the key of your Samsung BD-P1000 is revoked, your player will no longer play any new disks that you buy. You will have to go out and buy a new player.
This entire thread is complete bullshit. Keys are not revoked via a network jack. Keys are revoked by the simple act of releasing new discs that don't support them.
So this bit is pretty well established
1. Player gets compromised (keys extracted somehow)
2. All new content no longer has a key for the compromised player.
a. Your player cannot play these new disks
b. The new content cannot be decrypted by hackers either.
c. Anything currently released will still play fine.
Now the interesting bit is how to update the players. The key system on Blu-Ray is very clever, and allows enough keys that they will never run out, at least in practice. It was designed to allow revocation of multiple compromised players, hundreds of times over.
The real issue is that you don't want a legitimate player to stop working. A software player can easily be updated on the internet. But a hardware player cannot assume an internet connection. And consumers are going to get angry if their player stops working because someone somewhere managed to figure out its keys.
However, there is no reason why a firmware update for the hardware player cannot be included on all new titles released. There is plenty of space on a Blu-Ray disk to hold thousands of firmware patches, for every compromised hardware player. So the end users will get updated.
Which doesn't mean that a real hacker couldn't "upgrade" their program too, but its a world of difference between figuring out a single key and emulating the system through an upgrade.
However, the biggest reason for this system is that of forcing a delay.
If you stop keys being released for a few months you capture most of the sales market
Sure, you may lose the long tail of marketing, but if you can just keep the decryption keys out of circulation for a few months plenty enough people will buy the disks anyway.
And they can play this cat and mouse game for a long time to come....
My 2c worth,
Michael
There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
None of that matters for hardware players, because each individual player can be revoked independently, without affecting the one that came off the line immediately before it, or the one that came right after it. They don't bother issuing unique keyset to each copy of a software player, for obvious reasons, but hardware players all have unique key sets so if the keys in one of them are compromised, and known to be compromised, then that specific player can be revoked so that future disks won't play on it. No updates to other players are required.
What makes this magic possible is a very clever and sophisticated key derivation scheme. Basically, there is an enormous tree of trees of possible keys, and each player is given a carefully-chosen subset of them, which allows that player to derive a large part of the possible keys, but not all of them. To revoke a key essentially just means choosing to encrypt future disks with a key that particular player cannot derive with keys.
The number of key blocks that must be placed on each disk to make this scheme work is linear in the number of revoked players. In fact, it can be shown mathematically that if r players have been revoked, then at most 2r+1 key blocks are required on each disk. Simulations show that assuming a random distribution of revocations, on average only 1.28r blocks are required. Each key block is 16 bytes in length, so they can revoke millions of players without significantly affecting the space available on the disk.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Uh huh. I'm saying I have a 32" LCD HD television, and normal DVD resolution is just fine for me. Yeah, if you pause it and try to count freckles on some guy in the background, HD-DVD is gonna work a lot better, but when you're watching a film from 10-15 feet back and people are moving around on screen, it really doesn't make a difference. The average consumer does not care. Don't get me wrong, HD sets have some advantages. For one, you can use progressive scan to get a brighter image and drop that annoying flicker along line edges. That's a huge improvement. But paying extra for extra resolution that you're not really going to notice, and the privilege of working with a broken protection scheme? Nuh huh.
Here's a couple neat facts for you: 1) many sets currently on the market have a broken implementation of HDMI that causes the authentication to fail. 2) There are literally NO computers which can currently play HD media in full quality. 3) No movies or TV shows are shot in 1080. Many are not shot in 720. The image that you get on an "HD" disc is most likely upscaled during the mastering process, to some degree.
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
HD-DVD is DRM'd, that's just the way it is. Doesn't matter the OS you try to play it on, the disc itself is encrypted. It's not like it'll work, no problems, on Linux but not on Vista.
That's the point here. People seem to have this "DRM in Vista is controlling your system!" attitude. No, it's not. You can choose to play the game or not, but it doesn't force anything on you. You can still use unprotected media just fine. Hell, you can still rip protected media to an unprotected format, if there's software to do so. Vista doesn't care. However if there is something that requires the DRM, well then you can play it if you so choose.
I am not at all supporting the DRMing of HD-DVD, I'm just saying that this trying to act like Vista's DRM gremlins are taking away your computer form you is extremely ignorant at best and outright lying at worst. That's just not the case.
So your saying that people should just accept that their new HD drive will only play the very small selection of movies out now? Of course the majority of users will have to upgrade. The only reason I see for not upgrading would be if you just use your BluRay/HD-DVD drive just as data disks, but then you likely wouldn't have WinDVD installed.
The real genius of this move is that all Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players require a network connection. That way the first time you BUY A NEW MOVIE and it zaps your player, you can go out on the Internet and look for another source of movies.
... that the only capital letter in the parent's entire post was in the middle of "BluRay"?
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
2) Burn a CD/DVD...
Won't the Sony RootKit prevent that?
Offtopic, my friend landed his helicopter on a lighthouse in England, and burned us a DVD of the video. He sent us it, and my stupid Sony DVD player refused to play it here in Canada. Not due to PAL, but it said Region Error. I thought we were a colony?
WinDVD 8 is still actively supported, and it's a software player so it's relatively easy to upgrade the key.
....)
What happens when, in a few years, a HW player is compromised and the manufacturer can't/won't distribute a new key?
(forgot how, can't be bothered, out of business, can't find receipt to prove you're entitled to the key, more interested in selling you a new player
Also, the WinDVD replacement key is free (as in beer). What about a replacement key for a hardware player? Will it be a free ISO to download to flash your player, or will it be a 'free' (plus $39.95 for postage and handling) CD mailout?
I have an 8 year old TV and VCR and a 4 year old DVD player. I doubt I'm going to get ANY support for any of them from the manufacturer.
I doubt I'll get any support for any HW player I buy today in a few years time, and that includes replacement keys.
If I buy a hardware HW player today, and in 3 years someone compromises the key, I'll probably be left with a warm brick!
Even better idea: they crack a player key, and then keep using it to derive all the media keys of present, past and future movie releases. Everyone can watch every movie using its media key, and the DRM losers can't revoke any player key since they don't know which player was cracked.
DOWNSIDES:
1- Less convenient; software to view/rip the media has to either lookup the media keys on an online database or ask the user for the key (who will presumably get it from some forum, torrent, irc channel or whatever).
2- The big boys can sue the group/individual who is giving out the media keys (if they don't hide enough, which they can. Alternatively, they can sue the media keys online database, if it exists.
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
That's the beauty of the free market; people who buy players from hardware makers who can't protect their keys adequately will suffer economical and psychological losses, thus contributing to the evolution of the human species as a whole, in a quasi-intelligent-designed manner. Their next buy will, with a higher probability, be a more "quality" product.
[/sarcasm]
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
That having been said, isn't there a region-setting hack available for your DVD player?
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Not at all. I'm saying that the likelyhood that a company will abandon a player anytime soon is exceptionally low. All players are upgradable, if not over a network, then via a CD-ROM.
Also, if you are using a Microsoft HD-DVD drive, you have to upgrade its driver and firmware anyway, as they idiots didn't properly implement bus level encryption like the standard said they should.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. There are no computers that can play HD media in full quality is BS. I watch them all the time. And as far as movies and shows, you're high. The movies released in 1080 are based on the masters. When you go to the movies, you dont SERIOUSLY think that the huge video on the screen is at a 480i resolution, do you? And most newly released shows are indeed being broadcast in 1080i at least, and no they are not being upscaled.
Your post smells of FUD.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Play that DVD on a new 52" HDTV and it'll look pretty bad. True not everyone will have one that big for a few years but they are coming down in price and soon more people will be buying them. HD-DVD and Blue-Ray problems will still be the same at that time assuming they don't scrap it and go with something else.
Ok, I'm not a huge supporter of DRM but this sort of FUD about key revocation for hardware devices is foolish at best (at worst, it a distraction from more material concerns regarding DRM). Supposing, arguendo, that a hardware key is indeed compromised - an event I think is not very likely considering that crackers will prefer to attack software based system first. A simple (if somewhat multi-pronged) plan will more than satisfy the majority of consumers:
(1) Network enabled players will automatically update - built in WiFi with WPA/WEP support would cover the vast majority of people technically inclined enough to buy a next-gen player. This is the ideal solution but need to be enforced at the player level.
(2) Downloadable ISOs for those without network-enabled players that want it NOW. While they are downloading, offer them to sign up for (3)
(3) A web form and phone number that will (a) send out an upgrade disk to your home and (b) ask if you would like to automatically receive all updates in the future as soon as they are available. Of course, everyone that registered their product for warranty will get the update mailed as well.
(4) Ask/Require retail places that sell players/movies to keep a stock of these disks handy. All these places have sophisticated POS computers that can make sure that anyone buying a disk with a revoked key gets flagged and is given the opportunity to get an update disk.
Now, are there going to be fuckups? Of course but with this plan a vast majority of people would experience failure exactly once, after which they will sign themselves up for the automatic mailings (which will, of course, be timed to arrive before the retail release of the new disks). To make things a little sweeter, put some content on the update disks - an old movie would do very nicely and give the consumer a reason not to think that this is a chore (yes, it is a chore, but, due to the expense and technical difficulty, I can't imagine that hardware keys will be compromised all that often).
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_c ost.html
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
We've watched a bunch of DVDs on a friend's 52" DLP, and no, they still look pretty damn good to me. He's playing it through a 360, so it may be upscaling to 720, I'm not sure. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't grab some HD media if it was JUST higher resolution. But when HDCP is so amazingly broken that a VP of Westinghouse recommends buying an HDCP stripper to bypass protection so you can play your HD media on hardware that is sold as end-to-end compliant, you know something's messed up. I won't pay someone MORE money for LESS rights to the things I buy, no matter how shiny it is. The fact that the improvement doesn't even really matter when you get down to it... well, that's just another reason not to care.
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
One error: DVD supports progressive video.
So 720x480 progressive vs. 1920x1080 progressive.
While that sounds like a huge difference, in reality for most users, it is not. While I can tell the difference between progressive DVDs and HD content, it's rare that the DVD isn't "good enough", and the difference is not that obvious. (For example, the DVD of "Dust to Glory" is very hard to distinguish from the HD version.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I'm not even sure if it is possible to region-lock a burned DVD.
Most likely there was something SERIOUSLY wrong with the way the DVD was burned, and the player got so confused that "Region Error" was the best error it could come up with (even though it was the wrong error.)
Most players just crash or hang in such situations. Some require a powercycle after trying to read a misformatted disc.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
This sounds like a wonderful idea. So, let me get this straight, you want to allow disc manufacturers to be able to rewrite the firmware at any time. This means that anybody that prints a disc can rewrite the firmware to make the player do anything.
"Do you know where that disc has been?"
Even if malicious crackers are not taken into account, what about bugware companies similar to Microsoft? What if there are bugs in the patch due to time pressures at the given disc's manufacturer's office? What if an error in the firmware update causes the machine to behave erratically? Or the update turns the player into a brick? Or the update uses the motors to damage the drive mechanism or even your disc?
What if a permanent commercial was inserted in the firmware and would not go away until the next update?
This corporate remote control crap is the same metality that gave rise to DRM. It is pure stupidity, and it is wrong. Nobody should be replacing anyone's firmware, software, or hardware without the owner's explicit permission (no, copyright holders are NOT software or data "owners"; the person on whose hardware the software or data resides is the owner).
Let us all hope that such firmware updates never come into existence. No one wants to experience another round of Microsoft's now legendary security vulnerabilities.
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
(otherwise hackers who have the compromised key could get the updates).
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Geez, you should read your own signature. 2 & 3 are dead wrong. Any number of movies these days are shot on 1080p24 cameras, http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/dvd/reviews/df/20040204 /107590320000.html?id=1807816319 Once Upon A Time In Mexico, dumbass.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
CSS/AACS :
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- the content of the disc (BD / HD DVD) is encrypted.
- the password of that encryption is stored on the disc BUT not as-is.
- the password to decrypt the disc (Title KEY) is also encrypted.
- in fact it is stored several time, each time encrypted using a different password (Player Key).
- those password for password (player key) aren't on the disc, they're secret.
- each playing program, either the firmware on a standalone driver, or the software running on your box, has its own player key, with which it'll be able to decipher at least one of the copies of the Title key on the disc : that copy that was encrypted and stored using the exact key corresponding to the programm running on the player.
- once the player find a crypted Title key it can decipher with it's player key, the player has the password needed to start decrypting and reading the movie (in fact additional stages occurs, but you got the basic idea).
Revocation
- company stops producing discs that use the corresponding player keys. The new disc is encrypted with some random title key. This title key is encrypted and stored several time, each time with 1 player key corresponding to all players *EXCEPT* the key corresponding to the blocked player.
- all other 'legitimated' users can still view newer movies, because their player can find an entry crypted with its own key and thus can get the password needed to play the movie.
- the blocked player can't : it only has 1 player key. The entry that it used to decrypt the password it needs is gone. And the player's key won't work with any other copy of the password stored on the disc, because all other copies are crypted with other Player Keys that the player doesn't have.
- legitimate users of the blocked player have to either flash a newer firmware or upgrade to a newer version of the software, that will come with a newer Player Key that will be able to extract the password for the movie (from a different entry, that wasn't stopped on newer disc).
What the CSS/AACS creators hoped
- To decrypt movies people need a password.
- We can't keep the movie decrypting key a secret, because once it gets stolen, there won't be a way to make newer movies that won't operate with such pirate players.
- So instead each movie has its own key, and each player has its own mean to find this key.
- If players steal key from player X, we will revoke its keys and force the company that made the player to make a more secure version with a newer key.
Problems with open-source software
- Software needs to know a valid Player Key to play movie.
- Opensource software writers don't have one.
- Disc-makers won't provide one because they fear that, because the software is open source, anyone could get the key and use it for pirating purpose.
What happened with CSS (on DVD discs)
- The crypting algorithm chosen for the whole procedure is just marginally less stupid than a rot13 from a mathematical point of view. Cleverly written brute force algorithm can guess the password to open the movie, without going through the whole key decyphering process.
- libdecss is a library that automates the process : now any opensource software can read DVD's without needing a key.
What happened with AACS (HD DVD and BD)
- muslix64 realised that, once you know the Title key that is used to decrypt a movie is known, you don't need to repeat any effort : just decrypt the movie each time with the known title key.
- muslix64 realised that the title key can be found in the memory used by player software WinDVD.
- muslix64 wrote a program that is able to decrypt a HD DVD disc if you can provide the corresponding Title Key.
- community starts a growing list of such keys.
Revoking key of WinDVD8 won't work because the Player Key isn't what was compromised. This is the procedure
- Choose some random software that can play the disc you want to decrypt.
- Install software inside a virtual machine OR along with a debugger OR along w
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