Apple Delays Leopard to October

SuperMog2002 writes "Apple Insider has the sad news that Mac OS X Leopard has been delayed until October. Apparantly software engineers and QA had to be reassigned to the iPhone in order to get it out on time, costing Leopard its release at WWDC. For now the original press release from Apple can be found on the 'Hot News' part of their site, though Apple did not provide a permanent link to the story. 'While Leopard's features will be complete by June, the Cupertino-based company said it cannot deliver the quality release expected by its customers within that time. Apple now plans to show its developers a near final version of Leopard at the conference, give them a beta copy to take home so they can do their final testing, and ship the software in October.'"

Comments

October?

[WrongSizeGlass]

I guess I'll be dressing up as a Leopard for Halloween this year. I sure hop Flanders it's handing out toothbrushes again.


warning: The above content may test positive for sarcasm and/or could be a failed attempt at humor and as such should be taken with a pound of salt.

Re:October?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. Two and a half years after Tiger was released. Anyone remember when Apple was putting out a major release every year?

Personally, I wouldn't give up one millisecond of developer time from Leopard to iPhone, but that's because I preferred Apple when it was a computer company, not a "consumer electronic lifestyle" company.

Re:October?

[Sam Ritchie]

I remember when people were complaining about Apple putting out a full-priced major release every year.

I probably would have made the same call. Leopard will be a good product - a competent, incremental improvement on an existing product - but it won't open up any vast new revenue streams like the iPhone (hopefully) will.

Re:October?

[McFadden]

I preferred Apple when it was a computer company

You and me both. It's one thing to announce a delay in the OS (shit happens) but to then go on to state that the reason is because developers have been shifted to the iPhone, is nothing more than a big "Fuck You!" to pretty much every one of their loyal customer base that supported them through leaner times and stayed faithful to the Macintosh.

I can't blame Apple for going down this road, because clearly they're hoping for another iPod style success. But, it's a crying shame, that just when they're perfectly positioned to take customer share away from Microsoft's crumbling OS empire, they turn their attention elsewhere. (And I'm no MS hater).

Re:October?

[limecat4eva]

C'mon, Apple has never been a computer company, especially not the same way as a Dell or a Gateway, or a Commodore or IBM back in the day. It's always been focused on the end-user experience, that which you so casually dismiss as the "consumer electronic lifestyle."

Re:October?

[gig]

> Indeed. This is one more reason to hate iPhone. I have a Core 2 Duo MacBook.

The iPhone is not to blame. They just wanted to say "iPhone NOT delayed" at the same time as they announce that Leopard is delayed. The first thing I thought when I saw Leopard in October was does that mean iPhone in October, also? It is running OS X Leopard one would assume, not Tiger. So they are saying don't worry you'll get your iPhone.

You could more easily make the case that the Intel switch caused the Leopard delay. Didn't releasing an entirely separate clone of Tiger on Intel architecture tax their Mac OS X team and QA resources more than building software for the iPhone?

Anyway, iPhone is going to be nothing but good for OS X. It may double the user base in five years leading to more development money and also greater compatibility. For example, every iPhone user is a WebKit user, so if CEO's are demanding iPhone compatibility from their corporate Web sites then they are demanding Mac compatibility and indeed W3C compatibility also. Right now they want to see it run in Explorer that is not good for anyone.

> BTW: anyone think this is a way to head off the "Mac nano" aka Apple TV running Mac OS X?

The CPU in the AppleTV is an Intel Pentium M 1 GHz that has been under clocked so it runs cool because it is the GPU that does all the work in AppleTV, displaying swoopy graphics and decoding an H.264 video stream. You also can't upgrade the RAM, there are many other problems with making this into a Mac. It is only half a Mac at best.

If you have a copy of Mac OS X and all you have in your Mac hardware budget is $300 then you are better on eBay. Any Power Mac G4 is a faster Mac with many other features also, like Gigabit Ethernet, FireWire 400/800, multiple USB busses, PCI, optical drive, 2 GB or more RAM capacity, space for four hard disks.

Re:October?

[limecat4eva]

No, even the Apple II was the product of a company focused on user experience. To call Apple of any era a "computer company" is like calling AT&T a telephone and telegraph company--technically accurate, but in a way revealing of a mindset that completely misses the point.

Re:October?

[noewun]

I have a Core 2 Duo MacBook. It would benefit from native 64-bit Intel code.

I'm curious how a machine with a 2 gigabyte limit on RAM will benefit from 64-bit code, since the main benefit of 64-bit code is to allow your machine to address more than 4 gigabytes of RAM. Seems to be you're never going to have that issue. Now, while I am being snarky, I'm also asking a serious question. It's possible that you know more than I do about this stuff and that there are some benefits to 64-bit code which do not have to do with memory addressing and of which I am not aware. If that's not the case, then it seems to be that you're not losing anything from having to wait for Leopard, other than a reason to complain.

Re:October?

[RedBear]

Two and a half years after Tiger was released. Anyone remember when Apple was putting out a major release every year?

Sure do. I think that was about the same time when users kept complaining about having to buy another Mac OS X upgrade every year, and when the developers were complaining about having to keep up with Apple's breakneck development pace. Right about the same time I seem to recall Apple announcing that they would be slowing the pace of development to give everyone breathing room from here on out. Let's see, yes I do believe that was right around the time Panther came out or shortly thereafter.

Leopard will have some neat stuff and a little performance boost on 64-bit machines, but I'm pretty sure you won't die from being forced to use Tiger for another couple of months. I (for one) applaud them for making the decision to finish a proper QA cycle on the software that's going to run my computer, rather than pawning off some barely-out-of-beta crap on us at the last minute.

Call me when Apple sits on their asses for six years straight without bothering to bring out a single innovation, upgraded hardware or major OS release, while simultaneously attempting to foist a subscription licensing model on you that has you paying a yearly fee for the privilege of getting a "free" upgrade to a new product that doesn't materialize for over half a decade. Call me when Apple puts out a major OS release that isn't faster/better/more feature packed than the last one and doesn't continue to add value for owners of older Apple hardware going all the way back to the first iMac with a Firewire port (1999, that's eight years of Mac models that are officially supported by Apple's most current OS right now).

Anyway, I'd bet that Apple are just giving themselves some breathing room and we'll probably get a surprise announcement about Leopard being already done and available along with some new Mac models, hmmm, just in time for the new school year to start. Wouldn't surprise me one bit either way.

Re:October?

[hcdejong]

Oh please. You're making it sound as if Tiger will stop working on 1-May-07 and you'll be without a computer for 4 months. Tiger's still a perfectly serviceable OS. Get some perspective.

They've released 10.1-10.4 on time, and pulled off the Intel transition months ahead of schedule.

And let's be honest, it's not as if Tiger doesn't stack up favorably to Vista, and Apple desperately needs Leopard to convince people to switch.

Re:October?

[squiggleslash]

Well, sure it was, just like the Commodore PET (a self contained, off-the-shelf computer that had everything you needed to start with) was a product of a company focussed on user experience...

I think actually the PET has a better claim to that. The Apple-II's only "user experience" innovation was the decision by Steve Jobs to put it in a "professional" case. Otherwise it was no less complicated (indeed, in some ways it was worse) than the majority of computers developed beforehand, and it certainly didn't present a significantly better experience than those that came around the same time. Customers even had to open the thing up immediately on buying it to add a third party TV modulator just to get video.

It really wasn't until Lisa that Apple started seriously thinking about "user experience" in any way.

Re:October?

[byjove]

My thought was that, since Vista is such a dog, Apple has the luxury of not rushing Leopard. At least, I think that's played a role in their decision. Rather than overtax the developer and delivery and not quite smooth release, they can take a breath, because Vista is no great shakes.

Re:October?

[Uncle Kadigan]

Any Power Mac G4 is a faster Mac with many other features also, like Gigabit Ethernet, FireWire 400/800, multiple USB busses, PCI, optical drive, 2 GB or more RAM capacity, space for four hard disks.

Not to diss the PMG4, since I've owned several and enjoyed them all, but there are a lot of things you're missing.

1) The first two PMG4 models (Yikes! and Sawtooth) didn't have Gigabit Ethernet. They also had rather weak power supplies that didn't comfortably accomodate significant expansion (upgraded CPU, upgraded video, four drives, etc.)

2) Only the 100MHz-bus AGP PMG4s (Sawtooth and GigE) supported 2GB of RAM, and only 1.5 of it was accessible under OS9. Every other AGP PMG4 capped out at 1.5GB.

3) Only the very last revision or two of the PMG4 had FW800 built-in.

4) I'm pretty sure no PMG4 shipped with USB2.0. Who cares if you have multiple busses if they're all 1.1?

5) In practical terms, the ATV CPU is probably about as fast as a dual-cpu 867MHz PMG4, due to the abysmal FSB of the latter.

6) The later-model PMG4s are still commanding $700-$1K+ with largely stock equipment.

7) The ATV has a decent GPU that is significantly better than anything that shipped with any PMG4. It also has BlueTooth and 802.11a/b/g/n.

8) Based on the above, to match the ATV, you'd need a PMG4 with dual 867s or single 1.4 CPU and a host of upgrades that would probably put you well over $1K (Although you would have much better RAM and HDD capacity as well as an optical drive. The PCI slots would be filled with the upgrades.).

9) Your resultant uber-PMG4 would still be enormous, loud, and energy-hungry compared to the ATV.

Now, of course this isn't quite a valid comparison, because the two systems aren't really designed for the same purposes. But, if you have a need for a very small, very quiet, very energy-efficient computer, that doesn't need a lot of RAM or CPU power, the ATV looks like a winner. Put its capabilities in perspective: you would have sold an organ for it 10 years ago, or willingly paid $1K-$2K five years ago. It's a pretty neat piece of equipment for only $300.

Re:October?

[TheNetAvenger]

I'm curious how a machine with a 2 gigabyte limit on RAM will benefit from 64-bit code, since the main benefit of 64-bit code is to allow your machine to address more than 4 gigabytes of RAM. Seems to be you're never going to have that issue. Now, while I am being snarky, I'm also asking a serious question. It's possible that you know more than I do about this stuff and that there are some benefits to 64-bit code which do not have to do with memory addressing and of which I am not aware. If that's not the case, then it seems to be that you're not losing anything from having to wait for Leopard, other than a reason to complain.

Well there are several questions and factors to be considered here.

How good is the x64 implementation of OSX. Past versions of OSX's x64 support are barely funtional beyond a developer's point of view, as the OS doesn't use the important aspects of the x64 architecture to gain performance.

If Leopard does provide an outstanding 'fully' implemented x64 version of OSX and not a hybrid as it appears it is going to be, there would be many benefits beyond extended RAM addressing.

The x64 architecture has many things that open the door for increased performance. There are many modes that doesn't cater to x32 legacy routes that are performance bottlenecks.

Even though applications running 64bit would in theory consume a bit more RAM, in number crunching applications, jamming 64bits together at a time is far more efficient than jamming two chunks of 32bits together.

If you look at other OSes with 'good' 64bit implementation, performance is increased for all applications because the OS itself is performing faster. Vista x64 or XP x64 are good examples of this. Even when running old 32bit applications, they perform faster than running the x32bit version of the OSes on the same hardware. And as applications ship in 64bit versions, the performance will continue to increase.

Everything thinks that the jump from 16bit to 32bit was better because of the RAM addresses and the modes the 386 CPUs offered over the 286 CPUS, but there was a lot of performance gains in just the pure math of dealing with one 32bit chunk instead of two 16bit chunks. I can still remember the debates from back then saying that 32bit was going to be slower even though it offered more features. However, the increase in the amount of data being shoved around easier proved this to be incorrect.

It is also worth reading up on the x64 extensions in both the Intel and AMD CPUs, as there are many changes when running in native x64 bit mode at the OS level that are very significant when it comes to performance.

Re:October?

[RedBear]

Damn! I'm a switcher in waiting and am planning on moving all of my Rock and Roll Report stuff to a Mac (blog, podcast, production for radio show, etc). I figured I would pick up my MacBook in June with the brand new iLife suite but now I suppose I will get it sooner rather than later. As a non-geek Windows user currently, how straight forward (or not) will it be for me to upgrade from one version of OS-X to another when the time comes?

Insert install DVD.
Restart.
Hold down C key after the chime to boot from disc.
Wait.
Select "Archive & Install".
Start installation.
Wait.
Reboot.
Live happily ever after.
The End.

Apple introduced the "Archive & Install" feature with version 10.2 (Jaguar), I think. It does basically what the older Mac OS installers did, renames your current system folder and installs the new version. I personally have never actually used it yet, what with being OCD about system entropy after years of traumatization at the hands of a certain other operating system that used to require reinstallation every six months in order to maintain performance. I prefer to start from scratch whenever possible, but that's just me.

From the comments I have encountered online over the last few years it seems that a great many people have used this feature with great success. Many people appear to have upgraded from 10.2 to 10.3 to 10.4 or from 10.2 straight to 10.4 without any trouble at all. It is also touted as an easy way to recover from bad system updates. I've read many accounts from people who nonchalantly Archive & Install all the time, anytime they encounter an issue like that. Apparently it's very fast and doesn't break everything, unlike when you're forced to reinstall Windows which usually wipes out your registry and turns into a nightmare. Fortunately all the user data and configuration information is properly separated from the main system folder and they don't use anything as monstrous as the delicate monolithic Windows registry, so things usually don't get broken just because you reinstalled the OS.

But, more importantly, what is so great about Mac OS X and Mac hardware is that it's so easy to make a complete bootable backup of your entire drive, a clone, onto an external FireWire or USB drive. Then even if something were to go horribly wrong with your upgrade you can just boot from that external drive and clone it back. Voila, you're right back where you started, happy as a clam and ready to try again after you figure out what you did wrong. Try that with a Windows upgrade.

Also I think that when you use Archive & Install you have the option of going to the Startup Disk preferences and choosing to reboot into the previous system folder. This can be done from any restore or install disc in case the machine won't even boot to the desktop for some reason. It's not a complete reversion since a lot of new applications will be installed with the new OS that may not be compatible with the older OS, but it can be useful.

In short, I don't think you'll have any trouble upgrading, although I would wait until the first update comes out. There are always a few issues that never show up until a new OS gets installed by millions of people, no matter how much beta testing and QA cycles you go through. Believe me, there will be plenty of people happy to blaze a trail for you and be the first to find any potential issues and help Apple fix them quickly. Even if you do have an issue, if you follow my advice and always do a backup clone on an external drive it is almost impossible to be unable to quickly recover from anything up to and including total hard drive failure, and go on about your business. AFAIC this ability to recover from almost any possible situation without being forced to reinstall applications, reset hundreds of personal preferences or restore user data piecemeal is one of the best features of owning a Mac, and a big reason that I recommend them to most of my clients (I'm a freelance computer tech).

Damn

[inKubus]

I was just bragging to the office MS pundit that Leopard would be out soon. Then I get Vista'd (tm) by APPLE.

Vista'd- to be up a creek without a paddle

Re:Damn

[OrangeTide]

If you're up a creek you should be able to drift down a creek. but if you're down a creek you'd have to paddle to go up stream.

Shouldn't it be more like:
going upstream without a paddle?

I often wondered if these sayings are correct, if they were corrupted somehow or if just the definitions of things changed over time.

Re:Damn

[MrShaggy]

Isn't that what applecare is for?? I think that is bound to happen on any system. You would hope less so, however doa is still doa. There are more because there are more peeps who own them.

Re:Damn

[644bd346996]

You seem to have a very tame definition of "creek." For many of us, a creek is not worth paddling on unless there are deadly rapids. When that is the case, floating down the creek can result in getting caught in formations with a strong resemblance to a front-loading clothes washer. That is an easy way to drown and/or break bones.

Re:Damn

[YU Nicks NE Way]

Being at the bottom of shit creek, however, would entail being submerged in shit. Your tastes may vary, of course -- and, of course, there's nothing wrong with that -- but I'd prefer to remain floating on top of the creek, if that's the alternative.

Of course, my preference would be to stay away completely, all things considered.

Re:Damn

[ktappe]

1. Apple does not manufacture hard drives. Be mad at Seagate or Hitachi or whoever made your failed drive. 2. "Destroyed" is an odd term. Just what happened to your iPod? 3. 6 months is within warranty. Didn't Apple replace/fix the problems?

Re:Damn

[OrangeTide]

Well I'd call that a torrent or a river. But even a tame creek needs a paddle if you want to go up it.

Ideally you'd want a paddle either way you go, but at least floating down stream is possible, although somewhat dangerous.

Also sounds like you've never gone tubing. float on a tube with a cooler floating with you and you don't have to paddle or push yourself off rocks or nothing. just drink beer.

obviously you pick a flowing body of water that isn't full of whirlpools and torrents crashing against rocks. pretty much any sort of river that a sane person doesn't feel like they need to wear a helmet and vest for.

Re:Damn

[Aqua OS X]

For this to be properly Vista'd Apple would need to delay this one more time... ideally a year or more. Then on that third release date they should release a public beta and use that as an excuse to delay the OS another 6 months. Finally, when it's actually released, it should have a ton of problems and Apple should force it upon everyone by making it a minimum system requirement something arbitrary like a new iPod.

Not delayed, same time as always

[Rosyna]

Saying it was delayed it slightly inaccurate since Apple has been saying Spring '07.

Re:Not delayed, same time as always

[SuperMog2002]

October's in spring?

Re:Not delayed, same time as always

[sokoban]

Seasons are opposite in the southern hemisphere.

Re:Not delayed, same time as always

[cyfer2000]

I checked the weather channel several minutes ago, snow tomorrow, so I think October maybe at the end of the spring.

Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[JimXugle]

Screw the iPhone... I'd rather have updated Macs and a shiny new OS.

Less pieces of shit, more big cats!

Re:Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[winkydink]

The operating system named after pussies that runs on computers used prodominately by men who love cock.

Well, I have to admit, my cock has grown on me over time.

Re:Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[Overly Critical Guy]

That was my initial reaction, but then I remembered that awesome keynote and was reminded of how damn useful the iPhone would be to me. Let's face it, the iPhone will be the hot device of 2007 along with the Wii, and it will sell millions more than Leopard will.

Steve Jobs will be demoing a "feature complete" Leapard at WWDC, so we'll know what we're getting and finally get to see the "top secret features." Already, the new dev build that was released today has abolished all brushed metal--every app looks like iTunes 7, even Mail. I don't mind a few months of polish to get everything right. Lord knows Vista could have used it.

And before the Windows trolls come out of the woodwork to defend the flop that is Vista, a four month delay is a major difference from a four year delay. And Apple is actually releasing successful products in the meantime. :) The iPhone is going to dominate this summer, so may as well give Leopard the fall.

Re:Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[anaesthetica]

You'd rather have a new OS. But Apple Inc? They're making money hand-over-foot with their "pieces of shit" iPods. A huge amount of revenue. If they can add another huge stream of revenue with their iPhones they'll have expanded their market reach once again. A new OS isn't an expanding market, it doesn't bring in millions of new Apple users. Sure, it's a revenue shot in the arm, as people upgrade and buy new computers. But it's not a real expansion of Apple's business. iPhone = real growth. I'm willing to wait for Leopard to be ready.

Re:Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[serviscope_minor]

Quoting the above post:

> > The operating system named after pussies that runs on computers used prodominately by men who love cock.
> Well, I have to admit, my cock has grown on me over time.

Seriously, who the hell modded that informative?!

Re:Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[puddpunk]

Too Much Informative?

Re:Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[autophile]

Informative gives you karma. Funny doesn't. :/

--Rob

Re:Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[313373_bot]

Hey, your post is informative. Funny should give people some karma, too, maybe 1/10th of a point or something...

Re:Mod Me down, but I have something to say:

[djdavetrouble]

Better late than buggy.

Unlike Vista which was late AND buggy.

Tiger is at 10.4.9 because of bug fixes, not features......

So apple is guilty too.

Leopard Delay - no big deal for most users

[wnknisely]

Leopard's delay isn't that big a deal for most of Apple's regular users. Tiger works well enough. There isn't all that much in Leopard that I'm really looking forward to having.

I can wait comfortably for another quarter if it means that Leopard will be released as a better operating system than was Tiger when it was released initially.

The bigger concern would seem to me to be the developers who've pegged their next release on feature that are Leopard only. They're going to lose out on four months worth of income. Hopefully the new features in Leopard, especially the under-the-hood suff makes developing so much easier that it's going to be worth it for them.

In the meantime, I'll download a nightly of webkit (safari is the only real annoyance I have on my Mac) and get on with my work.

Re:Leopard Delay - no big deal for most users

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of when my boss starts yelling at me for missing a deadline and I let them know it's no big deal because what I was working on really sucked...

New Finder...

[goodcow]

They'd better use this delay to implement a new Finder given how absolutely terrible the current one is.

Re:New Finder...

[Blakey Rat]

Sorry, I'm new to mac .... what is so crummy about the Finder in Tiger? I've had some difficulties using it, but always penned it as user error. What was good about previous implementations?

It has terrible usability design, with two "modes" (a Windows-esque 'browser' mode, and a Mac Classic 'spatial' mode), neither of which work correctly. The Spotlight UI, in particular, is almost criminally complex and quirky... a Linux/Windows user might not notice it, but to a Mac Classic user it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. People used to Classic are driven spare by the Command-N keyboard shortcut that used to create a new folder, but now creates a new window-- even in Spatial mode (which makes no sense.)

If you have make the horrible error of trying to open a network drive when the network it's on is no longer available (you know, like the huge number of people who use wifi on their laptops), Finder will freeze for minutes at a time. Finder will also freeze for several minutes if you have the audacity to drag-and-drop files to the desktop from some applications. DotMac will also freeze Finder for several minutes if it attempts to sync itself while on an un-reliable network. There's no multi-threading whatsoever.

Opening a window with a large number of images will frequently crash Finder as it creates thumbnails. And no, it's not a corrupt image file, because if I do the same view in Windows, Windows will create the thumbnails in seconds with no errors. When Finder's image previews do work, generating them is super-slow.

It's still missing features that were in Mac Classic, like tabbed folders. (Although to be fair, they have added Labels back in and Pop-Open drag&drop.) Text clippings are nearly useless, as you can no longer drag them directly into a word processor/edit field (like in OS 9), nor can you select and Copy text from them. Oh, and Finder will silently delete the contents of old Mac Classic text clippings, so I hope you didn't have a bunch of important passwords in one or anything... oops!

If you create a new file on the CLI, it still won't show up right away in Finder. You frequently have to 'prod' Finder into showing it, by closing and re-opening the window, or creating a new folder and then deleting it.

It's just bad. Given, a bad Macintosh file browser is still as good as the average Linux or Windows file browser, but that's not much of an excuse, especially for us old-school Mac users. I'd be happy if they fixed some of the more blatant bugs and added tabbed folders, even if it's not a total re-write.

Re:New Finder...

[chebucto]

Good list. I would add:

- No way to force Finder to use a single view mode (eg, open all windows in list view)
- Clicking & holding the mouse while using list view:
- - If you click over top of a file, and then move the mouse, you will drag the file
- - If you click in the whitespace directly to the right of the file, and then move the mouse, you will select whatever file's whitespace the cursor passes over
- The 'show disk size / free space' on the desktop only seems to update itself when you reboot
- Finder will try and generate previews of movies, if you are stupid enough to click on them while in column view. If you click on a +700mb file, this can take awhile. Oh, and it makes you wait until it finishes
- As far as I can tell, it is impossible to force finder to always calculate folder sizes. This is related to the list-view problem: the scheme for defining how a folder is presented is exceedingly complicated, and there is _no_ way to force global settings on all folders.
- The rules defining how windows are ordered (from 'top' to 'bottom') are broken. One of two things _should_ happen: either all windows owned by the active application should sit on top of whatever else is being drawn (the macos classic way); or, individual windows should remain disconnected from other windows owned by their application. Instead, the current macos has a cumbersome mix of these two methods, resulting in behavior that is infrequent yet infuriating.

That about all I can think of now

Re:New Finder...

[Paperkirin]

I'll agree with most of that, but the cmd-N = new window, not new folder is just the Finder fitting in with the rest of the OS, where it almost universally performs this action. I admit that it doesn't make much sense in the pseudo-spatial mode, but then, what does?

(Hint: Open Apple Menu > System Preferences...; Click Keyboard & Mouse; Switch to the Keyboard Shortcuts tab; click the + button below the list; choose Finder for the application, type 'New Folder' in the Menu Title box, and press cmd-N in Keyboard Shortcut. Lather, rinse and repeat for 'New Window' (note lack of the word 'Finder', the only difficult thing about this) and shift-cmd-N.

Re:New Finder...

[diamondsw]

Let me sum up:

1. The Finder opens new windows in browser mode, which upsets those of us (myself included) who prefer spatial browsing. However, in day-to-day use I don't find it to be a problem. There simply aren't that many folders I'm still opening for the first time.
   
2. Networking in the Finder just sucks - I have no idea why it's not spun off into a separate thread or process, but it can bring down the UI if it disconnects.
   
3. No problems with thumbnails here, and I go through a LOT of them. For... research purposes, yeah. Even partial or corrupt ones have no effect (although until 10.4, they could crash the Finder, so this may be old information). Windows is snappier because it caches the thumbnails, and can end up with them being out of date. Thumbs.db, anyone?
   
4. Tabbed folders - missed them for about 5 minutes, then discovered the Dock. Could you dig down through multiple levels of folders with a click like you can with the Dock? No. And with Leopard, they're spring loaded finally.
   
5. Clipping support. Yes, they were useful, but this is the best you've got?
   
6. You most certainly do NOT have to "prod" the Finder to show new files. Kernel file notifications were added in 10.4 and work fine. Go ahead, open a window then "touch foo" in the terminal - the file will appear as soon as you hit enter.

So, it has some networking issues, and it really shouldn't default to opening new windows in browser mode. Otherwise, it's just fine. Despite the whining, it has made a lot of progress since 10.0.

Re:New Finder...

[appleprophet]

Try using it for accessing network resources...

Re:New Finder...

[TheRaven64]

Sadly that's not the finders' fault. It has more to do with insisting on having drives mounted as kernel devices when all I wanted to do was copy one damn file from one damn machine. There is nothing wrong with having drives mounted by the kernel. The problem is that the disconnection mechanism in XNU sucks. If a drive disappears while there are no open file descriptors pointing to it, then the disconnection should not matter at all. There are three situations that can occur when a device underlying a mounted filesystem disappears that can occur:

1. No file descriptors open. In which case, just silently unmount it. If the user tries to access it again, then a userspace app (e.g. The Finder) can try to re-mount it.
2. File descriptors open read-only. In which case, unmount it and return an error the next time an app tries to read from the file descriptor. This can then be handled in userspace (e.g. trying to re-mount, and notifying the user if it fails).
3. File descriptors open read-write. In this case, you should retain the cached copy of the file. Try to re-mount. If this succeeds, replay the journal and then finish writes if you are in a consistent state. If you are not in a consistent state, you have a problem, so notify the user and let them try to fix it (save elsewhere, etc).

OS X does none of these right.

The real reason for the delay - I totally swear!

[Anonymous Coward]

iPhone delays are just an excuse; the REAL reason is that Apple needs a bit more time to finish implementing their new super-secret killer OS features...

... Palladium ! ... UEFI support ! ... Monad ! ...and finally, WinFS !

Once these features are in place, Vista will pale before Apple's new code-named-Leopard OS, secret-code-named-Longhorn OS! Mwuahahaaaa!

Better late than buggy

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone following news of recent developer builds of Leopard could have predicted that it wasn't near being ready. No sign of the announced "top secret" features, and mile-long bug lists. Good that they're willing to take the PR hit (oops! they jabbed Microsoft about delaying Vista, didn't they?) instead of release a pile of crap in June.

Interesting that they had to pull engineers off OS X to the iPhone. Most likely, they needed to get the iPhone done in time to meet contractual requirements with Cingular, and there wasn't enough time to hire new staff and train them. It can take months to get even the brightest new hires up to speed and productive, so this is understandable. Especially when training new hires means some of your existing staff is dedicated to that instead of real work. So, in keeping with the dropping of "Computer" from their name, Apple just put the computer stuff on the backburner and took the quick route of using existing, knowledgeable engineers.

Too bad they didn't do better long range forecasting for staffing needs a year or two ago...

Wonder what this'll do to Mac sales, as many people were waiting for a Leopard release before buying? Will people still wait 6 more months, or will they buy now? Will they go PC to spite Apple for the delay?

No surprise, really...

[Y-Crate]

This was pretty obvious from as early as Mid-March. We knew there would be "secret features" coming, and none of them have thus far appeared in any of the betas.

Apple isn't retarded, and it is highly unlikely that they would have dumped them in the laps of developers a matter of weeks prior to the final release. That being said, I will go into nerd rage spasms if they don't fix Finder this time around and spend their efforts doing some stupid .Mac integration or comparable bullshit feature that ignores the rotting elephant in the room.

Re:No surprise, really...

[Blakey Rat]

They've gone, what, 5 releases without fixing (much) in Finder; what makes you think they'll fix it this time around? Wasn't it 10.3 where Apple claimed they were re-writing Finder from scratch, and we ended up with almost the exact same mess of poor usability and terrible bugs we were using before? Hell, I'd be happy if it just didn't utterly freeze for minutes at a time when your network got disconnected-- it's like the Finder programmers never heard of wifi!

It's sad when the one application that is hard-coded to run on every boot for every user is the worst application Apple makes.

Re:No surprise, really...

[blibbler]

I don't want to defend the Finder in 10.4, but the Finder included in 10.0 sucked so much harder than the current version. On a G4, when resizing a "column-view" window, it would only refresh every couple of seconds or so. IIRC, this wasn't fixed until 10.2. There are still large complaints with the Finder (especially the networking one you mentioned) but it is unfair to say there haven't been improvements.

Re:No surprise, really...

[Blakey Rat]

Maybe I'm just an old dog who's no good and new tricks, but I hate the "browser"-type stuff. I want a 100% fully spatial Finder, like we had in every single version of Mac OS until 10. It wasn't broken, and it shouldn't have been "fixed."

If they wanted to add a browser mode in addition to the normal Finder mode, that would be fine with me-- as long as they didn't break the normal Finder mode in the process.

Considering the secret features aren't in yet...

[artifex2004]

I don't see how anyone thought past December or January that it would be ready for June.
Assuming there really are big new secret features, like Jobs promised, anyway, they would require extensive testing including all kinds of real world testing in developers' systems, new SDKs, etc. Guess what we've seen so far?

Hi, I'm a Mac

[davidwr]

Hi, I'm a Mac.
And I'm a PC.

<squeaky kid voice> I'm an iPhone play with me watch this oh I got a boo-boo make it better daddy let's play catch can I have some ice cream can I can I huh huh oh look a kite I wanna kite mommieee!

Steve Jobs: Damn I forgot how much attention new products need.

I wonder....

[BigCanOfTuna]

I wonder how much of an influencing factor in Apple's delay was due to the slow market uptake of Vista. Would Apple still have delayed the release if MS was seeing more sales in their new product? I'd like to think Apple is above that, but business is business.

Re:I wonder....

[BlowChunx]

It works both ways you know. If they thought it was good enough, they would push Leopard out trying to put a stake through the heart of the undead OS named Vista. Market share counts in pushing share price up. Software delays don't.

Marketing Ploy... and a good one!

[jhfry]

I am willing to bet that the June developer release, with it's "top secret" new features will give users something to lust over for a few months while Steve Jobs talks it up in the media. Possibly giving users pause over buying their new Vista machine in favor of waiting for a new Mac.

Have you ever noticed how well this works for movies, and music for that matter? Release a movie/song to a small segment of the market (critics, private screenings, etc) in order to create some buzz... then talk about it for a few months... finally releasing it to the consumer and watch it sell like hotcakes on the day it's released. Then they will use the skewed release figures to further market it, saying it was the fastest selling OS of all time, or some bullshit like that, making everyone think that they need to have it since everyone else is getting it too.

You will constantly be thinking about how great it will be to finally get your grubby hands on this OS for months... salivating over reviews and screen shots on any number of review sites until finally you see a rack full of it at your local computer store. Where you will buy it up, take it home, and do nothing more than your doing today with your computer, but it will look prettier.

This all hinges on the idea that Leopard is truly the huge improvement that it's claimed to be... but even if it's not, Apple is a marketing machine and the average user will buy into the hype.

To summarize, Apple could release in June, and probably release a damn fine piece of software. But they want to make us wait, make us want it more, have it consume us... then we will actually think we are getting something so much better than we have today!

Re:Sounds a lot like Vista

[largesnike]

The thing I've found about development is that you can't just throw more at a product. This is Microsoft's problem. They have hundreds and hundreds of developers. Every 5 developers needs a team leader, every couple of team leaders need analysts and project managers, project managers need to have meetings to discuss release schedules, then there's compatability concerns and merging issues. The whole thing becomes an incredibly hard-to-steer buraucracy, where five or six dedicated developers would have sufficed.

Companies can only really focus on a few products, regardless of size, you just can't be everything to everybody, because the friction of beuracracy will just slow to standstill.

I think Apple are right to stagger development like this, it shows patience, understanding and maturity.

Re:phuck

[Paradise Pete]

Aaaaaarrrrggghhhh! I was really looking forward to it.

Why so glum? Now you can look forward to it even longer.

This must be fake

[GerMac Addict]

Seems to me the "Leopard Delay" (as also reported by AppleInsider.com http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/04/12/appl e_delays_leopard_release_until_october.html and gizmondo.com http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/official-apple- delays-leopard-iphone-is-priority-1-251911.php) is merely a hack of Apple's site. I took these screenshots recently: http://home.arcor.de/gitsax/Bilder/Bildschirmfotos /Bild%203.jpg http://home.arcor.de/gitsax/Bilder/Bildschirmfotos /Bild%204.jpg http://home.arcor.de/gitsax/Bilder/Bildschirmfotos /Bild%205.jpg Only one shows this "news".

Re:This must be fake

[slashwritr]

is merely a hack of Apple's site. You do realize what you're saying, don't you? That Apple's site got hacked? Wouldn't that be even more embarrassing than Leopard being delayed?

Re:This must be fake

[slashwritr]

Except it's not phishing when the URL reads: http://www.apple.com/hotnews, and when you get to said URL via a link on www.apple.com. Seriously, though, why try proving it fake? So Leopard is delayed. It's not the end of the world.

Apple lags behind Microsoft, AGAIN

[The Breeze]

Apple just can't seem to match Microsofts's superior delay history. Microsoft has already astounded the world by an amazing THREE YEAR delay in the original Vista release date and the actual delay; this impressive delay is one of the longest delays for a product that actually eventually made it out of the front door instead of dying...

And here's Apple, trying to out-do Microsoft, and the best then can do is delay Leopard for three lousy months - and technically speaking, it's not much of a delay since the original release date was "Spring 07".

I mean, come on, Apple. Surely you can break something in Leopard to force a longer delay. Microsoft wins, hands down. Apple still lags way behind MS on viruses, as well. With my Windows machine, unpatched, I have THOUSANDS of viruses that can infect my machine if I want to. Apple just doesn't give me that ability. Maybe they just don't care.

Apple's Shift

[vertigoCiel]

Apple really meant it when they removed "Computer" from their name. So far, they've released the AppleTV, the corresponding 802.11n base station, and are holding back OS X for the iPhone. The only computer update was the rather delayed 4 Core/Processor Mac Pro. Looks like Apple's focus is now firmly on multimedia and entertainment devices rather than computers

Re:Apple's Shift

[heraclitus23]

AppleTV is a computer---it even has a perl plugin. And the iPhone runs OS X. It is less that Apple has abandoned computers and more that Apple has generalized what computers can do and how they fit into peoples lives. Call them computing devices rather than computers if you like, but they all use OS X which is why there was the delay. They pulled OS X softwarae engineers away from Leopard development to work on the iPhone.

Re:Apple's Shift

[timster]

Why do you refer to the iPhone as a "multimedia and entertainment device"? And most people would agree that a wireless networking product is a "computing" thing.

Honestly, I think Apple wants to push computing a little more -- give us better computers in our pockets and our living rooms, not just better computers on our desks. Sure, a living room computer will be optimized for living room stuff, like watching shows and movies, and a pocket computer will naturally be very different from a Mac Pro.

But it's still computing, even if you call it a phone. I think they dropped the "Computer" because they want people to think beyond the box-on-a-desk.

Re:What's that huge sigh of relief ...

[bky1701]

What's that huge sigh of relief that I hear coming from the direction of Redmond?

Bill Gates had beans today. Nothing for you to see here, move along.

Windows fan reaction

[Overly Critical Guy]

Windows fans everywhere, admiring the pretty Macs in the window: "If only our biggest complaint was having to wait two and a half years instead of just two years for a new OS release."

Re:It is nice to see...

[rilister]

hmmm. remember OSX 10.0? Quoth Wiki:

"The initial version was slow, not feature complete, and had very few applications available at the time of its launch, mostly from independent developers. Many critics suggested that while the OS was not ready for mainstream adoption, they recognized the importance of its initial launch as a base on which to improve."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSX

I also seem to remember a total absence of a DVD player...

I'm actually happy with this announcement.

[rizzo320]

As a person who works in higher ed, I hate the fact that lots of new things are announced around the WWDC during the summer. The demand is there from the customers (professors, students), but not enough testing time. I know the world doesn't revolve around higher-ed, but its still a pain.

With a release date of October, I'll have many months to test and play around with things before rolling it out. And since we only buy computers in the July/August timeframe, I won't be taken by surprise when they come with Leopard pre-installed. Heck, they'll be at 10.5.1 or 10.5.2 by Fall 2008.

I don't believe they will loose a lot of sales because of this announcement. A lot of students are getting Macs at the back-to-school time of year specifically because of Leopard- they are getting them because of the total package and the "it just works" mentality. That's not going to change despite the delay. And for those who were going to wait, they now have to make the choice continuing until the October release or biting the bullet and getting a new computer before then.

I'm sure many are cursing up a storm because of this, but at the same time, I bet a lot of support folks like myself are breathing a sigh of relief. Besides, we now know EXACTLY when it will be released (October), not just a general esitmate (like Spring 2007). That's ALOT coming from Apple.

Will this run on AMD?

[Alaria Phrozen]

So I see my OS choices in the next five years as: Windows Vista, Mac's OS X, or some Linux variant.

I don't really want to do another Windows. As long as the Mac has Blizzard's support with games like WoW, I may actually be able to abandon Windows. I've tried Debian, Red Hat, Fedora, and Ubuntu. Let's just say I'm an idiot and I'm good at breaking X without knowing how to fix it. I've got a stable, backed up Linux virtual machine that I'm very happy with, and I can use that to write papers in TeX and do assignments for my uni courses; but I don't really feel comfortable with performing any kind of minor or even cosmetic surgery on Linux. I'd really like to, but after breaking each distro with minor config changes...

Anyway! The actual question!

I read in other articles and on Wiki that Leopard will run on x86 Intel style CPUs, and that this particular version you're actually allowed to run on non-Apple specific hardware. I also read that it wouldn't be running on AMD. That doesn't make sense as I thought deep down the only difference was optimizations, and even AMD gets to have those if it's old enough. MMX, SSE1&2, etc.

Can someone please clarify this? Will I be able to run Leopard on my OEM self-built AMD 64 3000+ based machine?

Re:Sounds a lot like Vista

[rizzo320]

I hate that Apple announces the same kind of delays Microsoft had with Vista.

Same kind??? Your math is a little off. 4 months (Leopard) does not equal 3 years (Vista). :-)

Bugs me

[pavon]

Tiger works well enough. There isn't all that much in Leopard that I'm really looking forward to having.

See I'm the opposite. I passed on Tiger because it all seemed fairly ho-hum to me. I didn't really care about Spotlight, Dashboard or Automator, and while the new developer API's looked cool, I realized that between school and work I wouldn't have much time to play with them.

On the otherhand Leopard has had me excited. I have been wanting virtual desktops on OS X since it came out, the the third party implementations have all be lacking, so I am very excited about Spaces. I am also quite interested in Time Machine as I have never seen a backup system easy enough for my parents to use, and have never seen any backup system that makes it as slick and easy to find the correct revision of a backed up documents.

In addition, several of the apps I use are getting outdated as the developers no longer support Panther (including some Apple ones). And to top it all off, I'd like to get a new machine and was naturally waiting for Leopard to come out so I don't have to pay another $150 dollars in 6 months. So the delay is somewhat of a big deal to me. That said I would much rather have stable software than an early release date. That goes for anyone, not just Apple.

Apple's priorities are no longer the mac (sigh)...

[ernest.cunningham]

Apple Inc was renamed in January from Apple Computer Inc to Apple Inc to signal Apple's migration from just a computer company to a digital lifestyle device company.

The prioritising of getting the iPhone out over getting Leopard to its loyal fan base is not only a slap in the face of Apple's computer users, but I think a mistake on their behalf.

Reason 1.
There are a heap of people out there holding off mac purchases until leopard is released. I know my old work (I just left 2 weeks ago) are holding off buying a new suit of macs until Leopard is released because they do not want to have to purchase leopard separately for every machine, then have to roll out etc. This would be disruptive. There is also a couple people at work who are holding off buying new machines for their personal use until leopard is released.

Reason 2.
iPhone will only be launched initially in the US. Leopard is released worldwide, and therefor a larger userbase to satisfy.

Remember, the press release says that the OS has been delayed to deploy the engineers on the iPhone project. So if they had not done so the iPhone would have been delayed, but Leopard would have been finished earlier. it is not about quality control on the OS for the delay. I just hope this is not a trend where the computer business lags/stagnates because of a focus on getting their lifestyle devices out the door.

Re:Welcome To The New Apple

[linguae]

1. Apple didn't piss off IBM. IBM wasn't able to keep up with its schedule for PowerPC G5 chips (we were promised 3.0GHz PowerPC G5 chips by 2004, but to this day, they never materialized and the fastest the G5 went was 2.7GHz). Plus, notebook computers are a major source of Apple's marketshare, yet IBM wasn't able to produce a G5 for them. The G4 was also starting to get quite long in the tooth. I'd still lust over a PowerBook G5, but it is impossible to stick a G5 in a notebook barring an incredible change in architecture.
   I'm personally also not too fond of the Intel switch, myself. Don't get me started on the x86 (little endian, lack of registers, CISC instruction set, etc.). However, Apple had very little choice but to switch. Besides, Intel's Pentium M and Core chips were getting very great performance for their power consumption, which is another factor. Plus, my complaints of the x86 comes from an architectural standpoint. But they do the job, and I like my Core Duo in my MacBook, thank you very much.
2. I emphasize with you here. However, I am not opposed to Apple branching out into other products. Apple's experience with usability and quality can go wonders in other electronics. Now if only they'd release an RPN calculator....
3. Apple's OS development pace is slowing because much of the low-hanging fruit of removing OS 9 and improving OS X has already been complete. Apple now has to work harder with each release because all of the major issues in OS X have been solved. We've came a long way since OS X 10.0. However, I agree that Apple better not rest on their laurels. Apple has rested on their laurels before in the mid-90s (*cough* Pink *cough* Copland *cough* Gershwin *cough*), which led to Microsoft's 95% marketshare.
4. Now, this is where I agree. I, as well as many other OS X users, could (or couldn't, in Britain) care less about a phone, media center box (iTV), or even a portable music player. I'm not interested in a "digital lifestyle." I want to buy high quality tools that allow me to do my work as a computer science student. They're the only place where you can buy a laptop loaded with an easy to use Unix with support for certain required proprietary software packages. That is why I am a Mac user. Apple already has the technical lead, and a spring release of Leopard would have made Vista look bad. But by waiting another six months, this gives Microsoft some time for Vista to get used more and even release a service pack that allows them to take the lead. Why would Apple sacrifice its flagship product over a phone that has nothing to do with what Apple is known for?

Once again, I have no problem with Apple branching out to consumer electronics. However, I seriously hope that Apple doesn't forget about the Macintosh platform, which is the impression that I'm starting to get. At MacWorld, there were no Mac announcements. The only hardware update that we've received since November was the new 8-core Mac Pros. Where is iWork 2007 (or even iLife 2007 for that matter)? I don't want the Mac to go the way of the old pre-Fiorina HP calculators; heavily demanded, great quality products that are no longer made (of the same quality) simply because the company wanted to rebrand itself. I've seen these trends in the technology industry before. The Mac is the heart of Apple. I know it's wrong to be attached to products, but I like my Mac a lot. It makes my job much easier, and I can't imagine having to go back to Windows, Linux, and BSD. Where will I go if something happened to my Mac and you can't get another new one? I think this is the sentiment of some of us Mac users.

Re:distributed computing

[chris234]

Xgrid. Next question?

Re:Welcome To The New Apple

[LionMage]

Piss off IBM so much they dump Apple as a customer and force Apple to run to PASemi, AMD, and then finally Intel

I realize this has already been modded flamebait, but I just had to point out that Apple dumped IBM, not the other way around. I challenge anyone to cite a credible source that says otherwise. IBM wouldn't deliver the kind of chips Apple wanted (G5 chips usable in mobile applications) without Apple forking over a substantial amount of money to help IBM finish the development cycle. That's assuming IBM ever made much headway on that effort to begin with.

(In fairness to IBM, they couldn't justify making the G5 a high priority and soak up all the R&D costs to make it low-power and fit within a laptop-appropriate thermal envelope. They couldn't justify that because the volume of systems that Apple ships is simply not large enough for IBM.)

Also, while it's true that Apple shopped around to both AMD and Intel, they never sourced processors from AMD, so it's a bit misleading to say that they ran "to [...] AMD, and then finally Intel."

As for delaying the OS because of the iPhone, I don't see that as a major problem. OS X 10.4 is still competitive with Windows, even Vista. There's no reason to rush Leopard (10.5) to market, and the users wouldn't stand for a rushed OS product since, you know, they tend to rely on the stability of their Macs for productivity and so forth. The company has finite engineering and QA resources, and since they pre-announced the iPhone, the clock is ticking on that product. They don't dare slip the iPhone schedule or the competition will eat their lunch, and the iPhone will be stillborn. The consequences of this logic should be obvious.

As a general rule, the buying public is more tolerant of software delays than hardware delays.

Re:It is nice to see...

[Petra_von_Kant]

OK, it will still work just fine, still be supported by Apple with free updates for security problems. Additionally, in all probability (if Apple's past behaviour is anything to go by) you will be eligible for a cheap upgrade (anywhere from free to half price) depending on the window around which you purchase the Mac and the OS release date.

I'm a little concerned that you feel that you are going to be charged $300 (where did you get this price from?) for the OS. Apple has never charged that for an OS (apart from their server software). Besides, you, as a student, are eligble for student discount on all of Apple's products.

The US education price for Single User OSX is $69, for a Family Pack (5), it is $199. Go to the Apple website and check the store.

"You've got a chart filling a whole wall with interlocking pathways
and reactions to shock and the researcher says "If I can just control
this one molecule/enzyme/compound I'll stop the whole negative
physiologic cascade of post haemorrhagic shock." Yeah, right."

Date

[Anonymous Coward]

It's obviusly the marketing guys who's delaying it. They just want to release it 10/5.

Re:What's that huge sigh of relief ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look into it, Vista is a grossly superior operating system to Leopard. I can't even believe they're going to release this if they plan on competing, they're years behind.

Re:It is nice to see...

[Petra_von_Kant]

OK, so, let's just get this $300 clear. When you buy a Mac, you are NOT given a 5 user Family Pack for free, you get a single user licence. If someone is saying that when you buy a Mac, you get a 5 user licence for free, they really shouldn't be buying that cheap 7/11 ice, it just isn't worth it. Make the trip to kids playground, the man there is just so much more aware.

"You've got a chart filling a whole wall with interlocking pathways
and reactions to shock and the researcher says "If I can just control
this one molecule/enzyme/compound I'll stop the whole negative
physiologic cascade of post haemorrhagic shock." Yeah, right."

Re:Welcome To The New Apple

[MightyYar]

I have no idea which of you is right, but I can tell you who is "foaming at the mouth". Do you have a mirror handy?

Re:You know what this means...

[Ilgaz]

:hint: Get a free developer account from Apple at http://developer.apple.com/

You need it to report OS X/Apple Software bugs anyway.

It is a preview release btw. Don't forget to send the reports and respect Apple NDA.

Re:It is nice to see...

[Ilgaz]

hmmm. remember OSX 10.0? Quoth Wiki:

"The initial version was slow, not feature complete, and had very few applications available at the time of its launch, mostly from independent developers. Many critics suggested that while the OS was not ready for mainstream adoption, they recognized the importance of its initial launch as a base on which to improve."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSX

I also seem to remember a total absence of a DVD player... There are people in professional World who still has questions about OS X in their minds because of 10.0 horrible,incomplete release. They saw it and never looked again. I really think Apple got their lesson.

I always see half of the reason behind those evil, paranoid Apple NDA stuff is the 10.0 preview experience too.

Mac users need iPhone more than Leopard

[skingers6894]

I want Leopard, I really do, but honestly Tiger is a great OS and I can live a few months more with it.

The IPhone however, we need to be great.

For those of you that think iPods, AppleTVs, and iPhones are supplanting the Mac for Apple, you clearly weren't listening to Jobs from the early days of his return.

He said that digital lifestyle was the future and the Mac was the centre of that.

Every time someone buys one of these digital lifestyle devices and find they work better on the Mac, they will consider a Mac for their next computer.

Back in the 90s Microsoft effectively killed the Mac in enterprise by releasing good Windows Office and bad Mac Office.

Digital lifestyle is Apple's MS Office.

Don't sweat it - the Mac stays.

I hope SOMEONE does

[davidwr]

Anyone? Anyone?

Difference Engine...

[argent]

Pity Babbage's customers. He delayed the Difference Engine to get the Analytical Engine out, and it never shipped!

Re:Welcome To The New Apple

[Frumious Wombat]

On the really Big Iron, IBM doesn't care either, because they have AIX. Yes those machines will run Linux, but they'll run other, more tightly-controlled, highly-optimized, technologies as well. It's all scale, and at the low end, Intel/AMD has the scale. At the higher-end, then Power + proprietary OS + services becomes competitive. Home desktop is uninteresting because the margins are too thin, product cycles short, and the after-market services non-existant.

The other side is that they still have low-end, 1-4 core Linux-compatible systems, which clock in starting at $3K each. Most of these compete nicely against Itanium or late Alpha systems, and outpace Opterons. In the HPC arena, nothing else has the floating-point chops except the IA-64, and it's not clear that Intel/HP have the guts to push it hard enough to compete. The Power systems are not going to wither away, especially as they gain an increasing foothold in High-performance systems, as well as being the core of IBM's Z-series main-frames and smaller systems. IBM has decided on the customer size it wants to deal with, and unsurprisingly, that size is large, with margins. They're returning to their roots. You'll probably see Sparc and IA-64 dropped long before Power is.

Re:It is nice to see...

[dal20402]

Usually about a month to a month and a half out, Apple announces a specific release date for the new OS. Their practice has been to announce, that same day, that anyone who buys a Mac after that day gets the OS upgrade for nominal cost (like $10). You just need to wait for that announcement, which may very well be before or in September for Leopard.

I bought a PowerBook in April 2005, about three weeks before Tiger came out. A five-minute phone call to Apple got me the new OS for ~$10. Being a cheap bastard I then also installed it on the Power Mac G5 I bought two months earlier (which was not eligible for the upgrade).

When Leopard comes out I will mend my felonious ways and buy a family pack...

Re:What's that huge sigh of relief ...

[toejam316]

You KNOW that the moderator system is failing when things like the parent get moderated Insightful.

Re:What's that huge sigh of relief ...

[rm69990]

Exactly. From my experience, most "normal" Mac users don't know the difference between a CPU and Powersupply. I upgraded a friend's Mac from Panther to Tiger and it took me a full 20 minutes to explain to her what I was doing because she thought Panther was built-into the Mac and couldn't comprehend how it could be replaced. She actually asked me if I ripped open the computer while she was in the bathroom!

You bring the average smugness back up.

[HornWumpus]

Keep up the good work.

But lets face facts. Discerning users never used MacOS prior to OSX. It sucked worse then Windows 3.0 in every way.

Re:It is nice to see...

[Achromatic1978]

Is it? For all people bitch about Vista, PCs sold for up to SIX months before it came out were getting "free upgrade certificates".

Re:You know what this means...

[Cochonou]

To be more explicit: you can download Java 6 preview for Mac OS X releases with a free developer account.

Re:Welcome To The New Apple

[Junior J. Junior III]

I agree with almost all of your points, but with a few minor quibbles toward the end:

a spring release of Leopard would have made Vista look bad.

Apple doesn't have to do anything for Microsoft to look bad with Vista. Microsoft is doing a great job of making themselves look bad all on their own. XP was released in 2001. Since then, Apple's released 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4... and 10.4 is already technically superior to Vista, XP, and every other OS that's come out of Redmond. Microsoft delayed Vista numerous times over a span of something like FOUR YEARS, and delivered a stillborn, feature-gutted, annoying, buggy turd that they have to force people to buy by withdrawing XP off the market. How's Apple need to do anything to make Microsoft look bad?

by waiting another six months, this gives Microsoft some time for Vista to get used more and even release a service pack that allows them to take the lead.

OK, first, Microsoft already has the lead... in marketshare, if not in technical merit. Microsoft isn't worried about whether Vista will allow them to take the lead, they're worried about if Vista will allow them to continue to keep a stranglehold on the commodity x86 desktop OS market. Unfortunately, Apple's not competing against Microsoft directly. Apple insists on allowing their OS to run only on Apple hardware. If you don't have Apple hardware, your choices are Microsoft, or Linux/BSD, (discounting something more obscure and perpetually incomplete, like BeOS or ReactOS). If you have Apple hardware, your choice expands slightly to include the above + OS X, and you'd be pretty silly to buy Apple hardware and not run OS X on it.

Apple marketing loves to make digs at Microsoft because the only difference at this point other than chassis veneer is the operating system, but really Apple competes with other OEMs who sell complete systems, ie hardware with a preinstalled OS -- Dell, HP, etc., not really against Microsoft. It's just that the only basis these days for Apple's differentiation with the Wintel OEMs is what OS the hardware comes bundled with. So while it looks like Apple and Microsoft compete against each other, it's more like they compete in parallel markets -- like track and field runners keeping to separate lanes on a track, not like boxers going head to head beating on each other. But in any event, the current release of OS X already beats the pants off of Windows on technical merits.

Leopard failing to release in 1Q07 doesn't make me any more or less likely to wipe Tiger from my Apple hardware so I can switch to Vista, and it doesn't make me any more likely to go out and buy Leopard to install on my HP laptop. If I buy new hardware from an OEM vendor this year, my choice is likely to be between buying Apple/OS X and building a whitebox and running Ubuntu, as I simply won't consider buying a Vista system at this time, if ever.

However, I seriously hope that Apple doesn't forget about the Macintosh platform, which is the impression that I'm starting to get. At MacWorld, there were no Mac announcements.

Well, the thing is, iPhone and AppleTV do both run OS X. And who do you get to develop OS X for these platforms but OS X developers? It's not a question of abandoning the Mac platform, it's a question of expanding the OS X installation base to encompass appliances and smartphones as well as traditional desktop systems and servers.

The only hardware update that we've received since November was the new 8-core Mac Pros.

The 8-core Mac Pro is stupendous -- you can't even run XP on an 8-core system, period -- you'd need Windows Server Enterprise Edition for that. OS X runs happily on 8 cores without any special uber-expensive edition license... as long as those 8 cores reside in hardware that came from Cupertino, of course.

The other product lines are all running Core 2 Duos at speeds which haven't changed much because clock speeds have stagnated around 3GHz for the last 3 years. So what's there to complain about? What do you envision going into the next revs for the iMac, Mini, and MacBooks that's ready go to today and anything more than a CPU speed stepping right now?

You say lies.

[solios]

Mac Office was - and IS - always ahead of the Windows version. Mac Office was - and is - feature-complete and (in my exprience) full compatible with its most recent Mac equivalent. For f*cks SAKE, it was released on the Mac FIRST. Before Windows ever shipped.

What killed the Mac in enterprise is interoperability. Mac Office only "sucked" in that respect because it followed MacOS developer guidelines - filetype and creator code in the resource fork, no .tla. So even IF a Mac user was smart enough to format a floppy for Windows (or worse, pony up the cash for a DAVE license), they still had to manually pin a .doc onto their Mac Office document for the windows version to read it. I've gone through Hand-hold The Cognitively Impaired User HELL on this point alone at least a dozen times before OS X hit. Combine that with the fact that you can buy/build a basic Data Entry Box that'll run Windows and Excel for half the price of a Mac that'll do the same thing (NOW - more like 4-8x the price back in the day), and you can see where this is going.

Office suite interoperability was hindered more by adherence to platform APIs than anything else - it wasn't until OS X that Apple said "f*ck it, let's ADAPT" and went to great lengths to make interoperating with Windows as much of a non-issue as possible.

The OMFGOFFICE "problem" (which is really one of user education - yourself emphatically included) aside, I'm tickled pink that TextEdit (the Mac equivalent of notepad) can read every .doc I've ever thrown at it.

If I may quote Steve Jobs

[ablaze]

"If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for all it's worth - and get busy on the next great thing. The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago." (Fortune, 1996-02-19) - http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steven_Jobs

That's exactly what happens at the moment. I think it's sad, nevertheless, you can't say Mr. Jobs doesn't keep his promises. The iPhone, iPod, and Apple TV are obviously the next great things.

Re:ITYM AppleTV on regular screens...

[gig]

> The iPhone is about $350 too much to be a killer product

It is the same price as a $299 smart phone plus $199 iPod nano. At $299 that is a very cheap smart phone, and the iPhone has the whole nano built-in plus free video playback. The service will also be cheaper than other phones because there is no hardware discount as with other phones.

The thing that people keep skipping over is the Web browser. It's a full desktop Web browser with Web applications support in the palm of your hand. To get that kind of Web browsing you have to go to a MacBook at $1100. Maybe it is only current WebKit users who can appreciate how good this is.

The biggest thing is the software, though. Where other phones have Flash Lite the iPhone has OS X. They can add features painlessly that other phone and handheld computer manufacturers can only dream of.

> AppleTV is priced to sell a lot of units, but there's a hidden cost to it - most people will need to buy a new TV for it.

First, that hidden cost is the cost of TV in 2008. Everybody needs a new TV. It has nothing to do with AppleTV. If you buy a Blu-Ray or HD DVD you will need the same new TV.

> It needs to work well on regular screens without a hack to really take off

Second, it has component outs. These are "DVD era" video outputs, and they work on any TV that has component inputs, which is most everything from the 21st century. This is just downplayed because this kind of "old TV" picture looks so much worse than newer systems which are "computer-ready".

Re:32 legs good, 64 legs - get slip-on shoes

[Guy Harris]

AMD64? But the Core 2 Duo is an Intel chip. Or is there something I am not understanding?

You're not understanding that wild_berry meant "EM64T", err, sorry, "Intel 64" rather than "AMD64", or meant "x86-64" rather than either of them. :-)

Speaking of 64-bit x86, has anybody tested any real-world applications to see whether the extra space taken by 64-bit pointers (and longs) ever outweighs the extra registers you get in 64-bit mode?

Re: 32 legs good, 64 legs - get slip-on shoes

[kangasloth]

It's usually not the register width that gives you the boost, but the register count. AMD doubled both the width and the number of general purpose registers when they designed x86_64 (aka AMD64, aka IA32e). Arstechnica has a detailed overview (jump to page 3 for relevant slide and it's accompanying explanation). You are right about the larger pointers being a liability when it comes to memory bandwidth, but the size of your basic C99 "int" remains unchanged. If you want a 64-bit integer, you'll have to ask for a "long int" on x86_64, or a "long long int" on modern i386, or better yet, an "int64_t" on any architecture that supports it.

Ignorance is cross-platform

[Cybrex]

Mac users are no worse than Windows users. I say this as someone who just yesterday had to explain to a supposed MCSE how to click and drag to select a group of items on his XP desktop.

No, I'm not bullshitting, lying, or exaggerating. I'm also not leaving out any extenuating details. The guy is really that dumb, and half of our users are as bad or worse. In my experience a "normal" computer user, PC or Mac, refers to their computer as either "the hard drive" or "the box part", and thinks that if you replace their monitor they'll lose all of their desktop icons.

The iPhone Is The Computer

[Gary W. Longsine]

The iPhone is probably running a version of Leopard, as effective use of its 160-dpi screen probably needs the resolution independent display technology from Leopard. Apple's strategy of using Mac OS X on their appliances like the Apple TV, and on the iPhone, as well as on their computers will serve them very well over the next decade as computing devices evolve. I'm actually quite excited by the likely evolution of the Macintosh that will be made possible by the development of the iPhone. This minor bump in the road doesn't represent anything more significant. The iPhone isn't a grand conspiracy to abandon the Macintosh platform, it's the first installment of the future of really truly remarkable computing devices. The iPhone is the computer.

What is this "advanced availability club"? Are you referring to ADC? Not really all that expensive. ADC memberships. In any case, your timing arguments are just silly. If you were planning to wait until June (e.g. for the final Leopard release) to "develop for Leopard" then Leopard timing obviously isn't critical to your plans, just just wait until October to buy your 8 core machine. Maybe RAM prices will come down a bit by then even and you'll come out ahead.

Re:The iPhone Is The Computer

[Douglas Goodall]

I don't think the iPhone is a conspiracy to abandon the Macintosh. I do think that right now, with the release of Microsoft's flagshit operating system (Vista), doing a good job on the desktop is important. I am more convinced of that than I am that the iPhone is the computer. I am an operating system guy, and I recognize the value of portable Mac OS X. I do think though that the iPhone is missing crucial features/benefits and costs too much. Without 3G, the connectivity speed doesn't meet my needs. I think it costs too much, by several hundred dollars. ATT/cingular just spent a ton of money rolling out 3G that the phone doesn't support. What's with that? The market place may prove me wrong, and it won't be the first time :-)

That's just great...

[IntergalacticWalrus]

The next version of OS X is being delayed because of a fucking cellphone. That's only going to be released in the fucking USA.

And people ask me why I hate cellphones...