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MS Urges Antitrust Scuttling of DoubleClick Deal

Microsoft contends that Google's $3.1 billion deal to buy DoubleClick would hurt competition in the online advertising market. And Microsoft expects AT&T, Yahoo, and other companies to join them next week in protesting the proposed sale.

177 of 234 comments (clear)

  1. MS knows what it is talking about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    After all, it takes a convicted monopolist to spot another one in the making.

    1. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by catwh0re · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Google buying double click is no worst than Microsoft buying it.. after all MSN & Messenger alone is an elaborate portal of advertising.

    2. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Informative

      MS certainly advertise on some of thier own sites and apps but i don't think they are in the advertising space resale buisness like google and doubleclick are.

      imho there is a major difference between being a producer of advertising space and a reseller of it just like there is between being a farmer and being a food wholesaler.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    3. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why not ask your power company? After all, they are the ultimate monopolists -- their market share is enforced by law.

    4. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, MS is in that space. The problem is that MS is not very sophisticated and they are WAY behind. They are hoping that by buying double click that they can compete head-on with google. Not sure that I really want Google to buy them, but I KNOW that MS buying them will be a far worse event.

      MS will have the ability to control it all via windows and MSIE (whereas Google does not have the ability to control except via natural). And while Google is tied in with firefox, MSIE still occupies 85% of the market. And with MS's past history, it should be obvious that they will tie all this together and kill off google. So what if they have to pay a later fine of 10-20 Billion? They will have created another monopolistic market that will earn them 2-10x that amount each year.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    5. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It strikes me, however, that even if this would constitute some sort of monopoly, it doesn't touch Microsoft in terms of harm to the consumer. First, I'm still not sure how Google can really abuse the market, even if they do control a large portion of it. People will still be able to use different search engines and different ad services. Plus, if Google somehow ruins the online ad market, it harms... well.... the online ad market. Am I the only one who's not entirely scared by that? I guess I don't buy the idea that, absent of ads, people would simply stop putting content on the web.

      Maybe I'm screwy, but I care much more about the OS and Office Suite markets. I'm not expert enough to know whether they should take action to stop this deal with Doubleclick, but Microsoft appealing to anti-trust laws means they accept the validity of the principle.

    6. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by init100 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They are hoping that by buying double click that they can compete head-on with google.

      So they want to stop Google from buying DoubleClick so that they could buy it themselves? Will they ensure that competition will remain vibrant if they buy it, or is competition just important when Microsoft is not involved?

    7. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I did another post elsewhere where I suggest that MS, Google, AND yahoo should be prevented from buying Double Click. There is too much ability to tie all this together. But by far, MS is the worse one.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    8. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Zerth · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, actually, they are in the ad business, and I say you can't be a trust in an industry where MS is a competitor:)

      They recently stopped using Yahoo's ad service and started their own. And it sucks.

      You'd think being johnny-come-lately that they'd, you know, copy the good features of the other big 2 and support things like being able to upload entire campaigns for large #'s of keywords and ads. Nope, the best they can do is single ad groups, one at a time, in two sheets, one for words and one for ads, which isn't really faster than cutting and pasting them into a web form.

      I recently had to change the text on several hundred ads and instead of merely importing a spreadsheet of the changes, perhaps generated for my by Google or Yahoo (which they do, despite the fact that it lets their customers try other ad sellers that support such a feature:) It took me about 10 minutes each on google and yahoo. I won't be done with MS adcenter for at least 2 days.

    9. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ok, I like how this assumption exists that if Microsoft owned a sophisticated low-end to high-end advertising service, as Google now does with DoubleClick's acquisition, that Microsoft would immediately turn it into an abusive monopoly and Google won't. What's the difference between the two? Other than the standard "Slashdot hates Microsoft."

      If anything, Google will find it much easier to slip monopolistic abuses past regulators and customers because of the following reason:
      1) For the most part, their 'product' is invisible. It's not something you see on store shelves, and it all exists digitally
      2) Their product is also in a market that's only existed for maybe ten years, because there's no history, people have no comparison of what is 'normal' activity and what is 'monopolistic.'
      3) While Google has many competitors in that marketplace, none of them get a lot of press. Or any press at all, aside from trade journals.

      For the record, Microsoft doesn't really have anything to compete with Google in the advertising space right now. The only part of Google's model they've replicated is providing free services that are ad-supported, but that's all. All of MSN's ads are provided by one of those companies which, while it owns a significant portion of the market, isn't getting any press. (I won't name it for obvious reasons.)

    10. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1

      "it harms... well.... the online ad market. Am I the only one who's not entirely scared by that?"

      Do you own a business? If so, a monopoly controller of online advertising could fsck you just like any other business-critical service/material you buy.

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    11. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by powerlord · · Score: 1

      Actually, MS is in that space. The problem is that MS is not very sophisticated and they are WAY behind. They are hoping that by buying double click that they can compete head-on with google. Not sure that I really want Google to buy them, but I KNOW that MS buying them will be a far worse event.


      This sounds like what a friend of mine who works in the industry also has been saying.
      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    12. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      Do you own a business?
      Yes.

      If so, a monopoly controller of online advertising could fsck you
      Well it could if I bought ads...
      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    13. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by twenex27 · · Score: 1

      You'd think being johnny-come-lately that they'd, you know, copy the good features of the other big 2 and support things like being able to upload entire campaigns for large #'s of keywords and ads. Nope, the best they can do is single ad groups, one at a time, in two sheets, one for words and one for ads, which isn't really faster than cutting and pasting them into a web form. There's a saying in the computer business - those who do not understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, badly. MS has always been good at marketing, but bad at technology, so I think they are an example of those who do not understand technology being condemned to reinvent it, badly.

    14. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by InsaneProcessor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      None of this really matters if you block all of the ads anyway. Does anyone see an ad at the top of this page? I don't.

      --

      Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    15. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by visualight · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For the record, Microsoft doesn't really have anything to compete with Google in the advertising space right now.

      That's the best argument there is for not allowing MS to purchase Doubleclick. Microsofts can leverage it's monopoly on the desktop to then control the online advertising business and then have monopoly on that as well. The way they used the same monopoly to gain monopoly control of the browser market.

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
    16. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by LihTox · · Score: 1

      MS will have the ability to control it all via windows and MSIE (whereas Google does not have the ability to control except via natural). And while Google is tied in with firefox, MSIE still occupies 85% of the market. And with MS's past history, it should be obvious that they will tie all this together and kill off google.


      Could you or someone explain just how Microsoft would go about doing that? I suppose Microsoft might start offering adspace on Windows or on their default browser pages, but they could do that now; what does owning DoubleClick have to do with it?

      I guess I don't really understand what DoubleClick's assets are, other than tracking data and employees.
    17. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by SirTreveyan · · Score: 1

      If so, a monopoly controller of online advertising could fsck you

      Well it could if I bought ads...

      Being a business owner and merely buying ads from a monopoly controller of online advertising can NOT fsck you...relying upon that monopoly controller of online advertising as your business' SOLE advertising outlet can. I do not know of too many businesses that rely upon online advertising as their ONLY/PRIMARY way to get the word out. Online advertising could be a part of any ad campaign, but it should never be the "whole enchilada."

      --

      SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0

      0 rows returned

    18. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by morcego · · Score: 1

      Are we sure about that ? Yahoo has embraced some nasty practices before.
      But I agree Google (based on what we see on AdSense) is the lesser of evils here.

      --
      morcego
    19. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      MS will have the ability to control it all via windows and MSIE (whereas Google does not have the ability to control except via natural).

      Wait a sec... if Microsoft buys DoubleClick, will the ads be changed so that I would have to use Internet Explorer to view them?

      If so, I change my mind: Microsoft CAN buy DoubleClick, please!

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    20. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Locklin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Gooogle's customers are not web users. Thier customers are the purchasers of add space.

      If you are looking to purchase advertising space and there is only one main company you can go to on the internet to see large numbers of hits, then yes, they can abuse you royally.

      As much as I like to see Google do well, and detest MS buisiness strategy, I have to agree with them on this. They should not be allowed to develop a monopoly by purchasing major compeditors.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    21. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by IwantToKeepAnon · · Score: 2, Funny

      I for one welcome ... (we interrupt this comment to remind you of all the excellent products we have concerning "Antitrust Scuttling" at www.spammeintheass.com) ... our benevolent advertising overlords.

      --
      "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
    22. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by nine-times · · Score: 1

      What I mean about Google's ability to abuse the market is, let's say Google mistreats its customers-- where's the vendor lock-in? What's to stop you from using another service? What is going to keep you using Google's services other than "they're the best"?

      I'm not saying that they absolutely can't abuse the market or this purchase must be allowed to happen, but I'm not clear why our government should intervene in this if they aren't doing anything about Microsoft's abuse or the mess of telecommunications going on in this country.

    23. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      Why not ask your power company? After all, they are the ultimate monopolists -- their market share is enforced by law.

      And in return they have to request permission for nearly everything they do.

    24. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1

      Well, I can't argue with that logic.

      In other news, a monopoly on meat is no problem, 'cause if you only eat meat you're not getting a balanced diet.

      Substitute "enchilada" for "meat" if you want...

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    25. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by inode_buddha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is another way to look at it. MS historically has a "win or die at all costs" attitude. In other words, they will do whatever it takes to kill a deal even if they can't get anything out of it. Think "scorched earth" policy. There isn't any "playing nice" in such a scenario. IMHO what needs to happen is for MS to realize that they are no longer a start-up. They no longer need to compete with such a fury that they force entire markets and nations. They no longer need to win everything in sight just on principle. Perhaps it is possible for a corporation to have deep-seated insecurities much like an individual, and I think that is what is happening here.

      --
      C|N>K
    26. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by acvh · · Score: 1

      not to mention that they have to buy my electricity if I generate more than I can use.

    27. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by HermMunster · · Score: 1

      And Microsoft forcing hardware manufacturers to put their DRM scheme into action isn't another monopoly in the making? You must realize, everyone, that DRM equates to market control. All you have to do is look at Apple's DRM and the iPod and then look at how the EU is seeing Apple as very anti-competitive.

      Looking at this from the perspective that DRM is a locking mechanism (e.g., Apple's DRM locks you into the iPod) you have to understand that this is worse than anything Google could do with advertisements. Not only that Microsoft's DRM operates as a spying mechanism and it equates to the fact that they are entering your home and your business to spy on you. It is like purchasing goods at Walmart and then having Walmart enter your home to ensure that the goods you have are actually paid for. You would no more let a Walmart employee enter your home to do this sort of search than you should allow Microsoft to do this. You wouldn't even let the government come in and search your home and most certainly would not let them do it repeatedly. So, why on earth are you letting Microsoft enter your home/computer to search it and then allow them to search it repeatedly?

      This complaint by Microsoft is an utter farce. Google doesn't force you to use their products. You aren't locked into their products. Google isn't acting in an anti-competitive manner by forcing vendors and consumers into little or no choice. Hell, if you don't want to view the ads get an ad blocker. If you don't want to follow through on the ads don't click them.

      Being in a position where you are forced essentially to purchase Microsoft products because you can't use your hardware without it and then to have Microsoft force vendors to do certain things to your desktop or they loose a competitive edge due to having to pay higher costs is a far cry from Google owning a large segment of the market.

      Microsoft is just representing to the world how pathetic they are. They can't compete on a level field. They can't innovate. They can't produce DRM free environments where people are empowered to use their content in any way they wish. This is a sad day when everyone (the government, the corporations, the people) are being led astray by such utter nonsense. Now Microsoft is abusing their relationship with the government powers. The richest men in the world complaining of anti-competitive behavior?

      All we can hope for is that the government sees that companies such as Microsoft grow so large that complaints of this nature will become so commonplace and maybe they'll enact laws that break up companies and/or prohibit companies from growing in this way. If our government doesn't start to understand the true motivation behind Microsoft's complaint then we are truly lost.

      This is not Microsoft being put in a position where they can't compete fairly on a level field. This is a situation where Microsoft chooses not to compete on their own merits and expects the government to come to their aid. We aren't talking about a small company who is being swindled nor are we talking about the fact that other entities can't compete or sell advertisements. We are talking about a company that is envious of another which is capable of doing something they can't.

      Microsoft is lost. This is a loser's tactic. It motions in the beginning of their downfall. To that, we can realize we have a solid company capable of defending itself against such ludicrous accusations.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    28. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      Maybe in your country, here in the UK I can choose my electricity, gas and water suppliers, and switch if I don't like them.

      I'm guessing you're from the USA, for the bastion of the capitalism, you're markets in everything from ISPs to consumer credit, to utilities seem to be very underdeveloped if anecdotes from slashdot are anything to go by. Whereas here in socialist Europe, with our free health care and welfare state; the free market appears to be flourishing. In the UK at least.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    29. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Are we sure about that? Yahoo has embraced some nasty practices before.

      Yahoo may try to be evil, but Microsoft is far more successful at it.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    30. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      They arent but they would like to be. Hence the anti-trust stuff.

    31. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      Corrected:

      After all, it takes a falsely convicted monopolist to falsely spot another one in the making.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    32. Re:MS knows what it is talking about by Locklin · · Score: 1

      exactly my point.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
  2. HAHAHAHAHA by HeX314 · · Score: 1

    Ain't this about as good as it gets. Microsoft hopes companies will band together in anti-trust. Oh the irony!

  3. Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by lordsilence · · Score: 5, Insightful

    one of the bidders for Doubleclick?

    Unhappy loser?

    1. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by clark0r · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sounds like Microsoft have a conflict of interest here and shouldn't be shouting out-loud about this. It just makes it seem as though they want to manipulate the marketplace for their own good. If Microsoft had won the bid, you wouldn't hear them saying "perhaps we shouldn't do this, it makes the market unfair" and dropping their takeover.

    2. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by MoonFog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Let's be fair here, Google is substantially larger in the online ad area than Microsoft, so if Microsoft had won the bid Google would just be a bit smaller. Off course Microsoft wouldn't say "it's unfair", because it wouldn't have been. Now Google is more like the Microsoft of the online ads world. The irony is not lost, but you cannot just turn it around and say it would've been the same thing if MS had won the bid.

    3. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      The real problem with that is that MS can control the market by tieing all this to MSIE (which they are trying to do via live). No doubt MS would be accused and later convicted of wiping out Google by doing this. They may even pay a 10-20 Billion fine. But once Google is gone, MS will OWN that market and will make 2-10x that each and every year. OTH, Google has NO ability to control the market save via a natural monopoly i.e. a superior product. But it would be better if MS, Yahoo, and Google were prevented from buy DC.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    4. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The big idea behind anti trust law is that companies are not allowed to leverage an existing monopoly in one area of the market for competitive advantage another. Google are an online advertiser, that's the business model and although they are the market leader, they don't hold a monopoly position. I'm not sure they even hold a monopoly position on search.

      Obviously Microsoft and their supporters here don't understand the basic concept of anti-trust law.

    5. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Probably not. But they do understand the concept of owning politicians. And since politicians gravitate towards those with money, like mosquitoes to CO2, there is a MONSTER crowd around MS without them even need to buy them. I would have to argue that MS does understand the law, all to well.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    6. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by MoonFog · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A monopoly is still a monopoly, whether or not you choose to call it a "natural monopoly" or not. Would it really be better if Google wiped Yahoo, MS et al off the online ads map? MS could use IE to wipe Google off, but why is it better to have only Google than only Microsoft serving us online ads? You can say "yes, but MS would do this and that", which would probably turn out to be true, but we have to face the fact that it's hypocrisy to cry foul whenever MS does something and just say "phew, at least it's not Microsoft" when Google does something almost just as bad. Remember, IBM was the big bad one during the 80's, not Microsoft, and see where we are now.

    7. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by Chyeld · · Score: 5, Informative

      A monopoly is still a monopoly, whether or not you choose to call it a "natural monopoly" or not. Monopolies are not illegal. Abusing the powers being one gives you, is. MS has, I've yet to see Google do so. So while it doesn't matter what the type of monopoly is, it does matter who it is.

      Would it really be better if Google wiped Yahoo, MS et al off the online ads map?

      Having seen MS and Yahoo's business practices, in a word, YES.

      You can say "yes, but MS would do this and that", which would probably turn out to be true, but we have to face the fact that it's hypocrisy to cry foul whenever MS does something and just say "phew, at least it's not Microsoft" when Google does something almost just as bad. Name one company Google has snuffed out of business using their current position as dominate leader in the search engine business. Name one competitor they've screwed over by pulling dirty tricks like MS has. I've seen none of this, have you?

      Before Microsoft became the god of the OS world, they pulled every trick in the book to try to kill people in the markets they wanted to be in. They killed the DOS market by tying sales of Windows 3.1 to MSDOS. When that was blocked, they released Win95 under the lie that MSDOS was integrated into it and not actually a separate component (which was later proven a lie when people found out how to replace MSDOS with other versions.) Almost the same thing happened in the IE/Netscape war for dominance.

      And when Microsoft entered the system utilities world, they killed of their competitors by outright stealing. Can you honestly say you've seen something like the STAC/Doublespace issue pop up with Google?

      There is a very legitimate excuse to say "at least it's not Microsoft", whatever Google's 'evil' has been, it's been outside their business practices towards their competitors. Their mistakes have been working with people the Western world frowns upon. Not trying to channel the spirits of every robber baron that's ever lived. There is no reason to currently think they would turn into the next Microsoft.
    8. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by MoonFog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So your entire defense for Google is actually "it would've been much worse with Microsoft"? I'm fully aware of the history behind MS, and I don't dispute the fact that it would perhaps BE worse with MS getting the deal instead of Google, at least for now, but think about all the information Google has on you and think about them being in complete control over most information that flows over the net. I would rather have MS, Yahoo and Google compete in the ad arena instead of having a monopoly, even if that monopoly is Google. Having one company knowing that much about a person is somewhat scary, even if the company has a "Do no evil" motto.

    9. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by jlarocco · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Monopolies are not illegal. Abusing the powers being one gives you, is. MS has, I've yet to see Google do so. So while it doesn't matter what the type of monopoly is, it does matter who it is.

      Just because it's not illegal doesn't mean it's a good thing. Illegal or not, monopolies are bad for consumers in almost every case.

      You can go on all day about the evils of Microsoft and Yahoo, and how superior Google is, but it doesn't make a Google monopoly any more desirable.

    10. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by Chyeld · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Having one company knowing that much about a person is somewhat scary, even if the company has a "Do no evil" motto. What Google has on me, it has legitimately through my consent. And contrary to your fears, they don't have "complete control over most the information that flows over the net". They don't have ANY control over what flows over the net. If there were two companies that could claim that it'd be MS and AT&T.

      Fears over what is out there on you are pointless, not because what is out there isn't dangerous. But because Google is not alone in having it, and is far more responsible in handling what they have than anyone else. Google isn't Equifax, the NSA, or even AT&T. They don't have your life in a file. At best, the know where you've been, and what you've told them explicitly about yourself. And frankly, I have NO clue why you are even bringing that up in the context of a monopoly on ads.

      And as far as "it would have been much worse with Microsoft", there is no PERHAPS about it. Microsoft has proven time and again their inability to act ethically in the bounds of the law when it comes to their monopoly powers. There is absolutely NO reason to expect their behavior to be any differnt this time.

      As far as 'prevent them all from getting their hand on Doubleclick'... Yeah that would have been nice. But there is a reason why Doubleclick had a line of people bidding on them, and that isn't going to go away until they go under or are bought up. And guess what, that'll be happening soon one way or another. So my preference is the company that hasn't had a track record of screwing over their customers (and hint, it isn't MS, AT&T, or Yahoo) gets their chance to prove themselves as opposed to the three that already have proven something about their willingness to play dirty to us.
    11. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      monopolies are bad for consumers in almost every case.
      Which is why whenever my wallet's stolen I don't just call the cops - I call Acmecops! Their quick response and friendly trained officers are preferred by as many as 7 out of 10 crime victims.

      [small print or say really quick] Figures totally fictitious. Void where prohibited. Your mileage may vary. [/]
      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    12. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by a_n_d_e_r_s · · Score: 1

      Just because Google is one of the larger companies in the ad-revenue business does not make them a monopoly in any way. There is alot of competition - one of them being Microsoft itself.

      This is just sour grapes from Microsoft side.

      --
      Just saying it like it are.
    13. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by AmigaBen · · Score: 1
      I wish I had mod points today. Yours is the only accurate post I've read on this thread. *Especially* pointing out the monopolies-aren't-illegal thing. Not that I'm a fan of monopolies, but the fact that remains that the big badness comes when you A) gain that monopoly illegally and B) don't follow the different set of rules that exists when you ARE a monopoly.

      Might Google eventually exhibit one or both of those behaviors? Probably. Is this a case of that? No.

      --
      +5 Insightful, really!
    14. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Look, it's this simple:

      Microsoft has been convicted of illegally leveraging a monopoly.

      Google has not.

      Now, which one would you rather own DoubleClick, and why?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    15. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 1

      What Google has on me, it has legitimately through my consent. And contrary to your fears, they don't have "complete control over most the information that flows over the net". They don't have ANY control over what flows over the net. If there were two companies that could claim that it'd be MS and AT&T.

      You gave google consent to use what ever info they have on you? Really? I never emailed google and said "Here is my info, please make it available to all who use you to search" Google and other website do have too much personal info about the average joe. Is is interesting that the high end of the income scale has less info then the low end though.

      I think google's motto is:: Do not evil. . . until it suits us
      everyone stopped at the first period.

    16. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

      The real big idea behind anti-trust law is that monopolies are bad, and everything should be done to prevent someone simply buying one. If it grows on its own strength, not much to be done about it. However, if a monopoly gets bought, government (historically US, currently only the EU), will try to prevent it. Remember GE-Honeywell merger? Neither were monopolies, though after merging they would practically be one. EU said illegal.

    17. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by danpsmith · · Score: 1

      Having one company knowing that much about a person is somewhat scary, even if the company has a "Do no evil" motto.

      That motto always struck me as something prime to become Orwellian double-talk in the future. Evil google? Can't have those two words together.

      --
      Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
    18. Re:Wait... wasn't Microsoft.. by denobug · · Score: 1

      Name one company Google has snuffed out of business using their current position as dominate leader in the search engine business. Name one competitor they've screwed over by pulling dirty tricks like MS has. I've seen none of this, have you?

      I think you forget about the recent admission of Google that their Chinese input interface was an appeareant duplicate of another search engine AFTER IT BECAME PUBLIC NEWS. Google did not confess beforehand and offer apology. It ADMITS its wrong doing after the fact.

      I'm guessing someone will mark me troll for this, but the truth is that Google is a corporation getting big in size. Big corporation will eventually turn evil, period. While CURRENT management can keep Google from the evil, greedy nature of corporation, how much longer can you keep people from unscropulous behavior when the fruit of abusive power tastes so good?

      Bits by bits Google will eventually turn evil. The more business talent Google can attract the faster it will turn and worse it will be. Afterall, the market will demand them to make MORE money and keep up their stock prices. Sooner than later Google will have to face up with that reality in the stock market.
  4. Microsoft concerned about Anti-Trust? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    They must be throwing snowballs in Hell about now....

    1. Re:Microsoft concerned about Anti-Trust? by owlnation · · Score: 4, Funny

      They must be throwing snowballs in Hell about now....
      And chairs too! I bet it's standing room only in Redmond about now.
  5. eBay & PayPal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There's a pairing that could use some looking at before Google & Double Click.

    1. Re:eBay & PayPal by Poruchik · · Score: 1

      Ebay is getting pretty heavy-handed in policing their auctions, and ebay and PayPal customer just sucks.

      Where are my google auctions?

      --
      $signature =~ s/$signature//;
  6. MS Urges Antitrust Scuttling of DoubleClick Deal by Odiumjunkie · · Score: 4, Funny

    No standard web pages containing all your search terms were found.

    Did you mean: MS Urges Scuttling of Antitrust

  7. Hard to argue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's hard to argue in support of this now. Overture or whatever Yahoo's advertising arm calls themselves these days is hardly a competitor, and even Microsoft have admitted their own advertising offering is stillborn at the moment. If Google does get hold of DoubleClick, it means they're literally the only game in town.

    When they can afford to lower costs for advertisers, having no competition means they don't have to bother. When they can afford to pay more to webmasters, no competition means they don't have to bother. Even a consumer can get screwed by this, since it'll be all but impossible to visit a site that isn't covered with DoogleClick ads, making 'voting with your feet' impossible. Very rarely does a corporate merger get to screw two sets of customers *and* the general public in one swoop.

    For those who say "But they did it with YouTube, so no problem, right?"... YouTube isn't really comparable, since there's a lot of other video sharing sites. YouTube was the biggest, but it's by no means unassailable and it's users arent waiting on a cheque.

    Regards,
    -Steve Gray
    -Cobalt Software

    1. Re:Hard to argue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      todo:

      Get myself an account otherwise people might start attributing things to me.

      Finish downloading that midget porn torrent.

      Regards,
      -Steve Gray
      -Cobalt Software

    2. Re:Hard to argue by Aladrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      http://www.google.com/search?q=online%20advertisem ent

      Hmm... Yeah, no competition. I'm going to say it. "But they did it with YouTube, so no problem, right?"

      YouTube IS comparable. DoubleClick is the biggest, just as YouTube was, and DC is NOT the only internet advertising out there. Here, lemme look through my adblock filters. These were all created BY ME, so they aren't just added randomly. I actually saw and was annoyed by these ad companies.

      qksrv.net
      atdmt.com
      bns1.net
      adquest.nl
      atwola.com
      tribalfusion.com
      burstnet.com
      falkag.net
      viewpoint.com
      imgehost.com
      interclick.com
      valueclick.com
      maxserving.com
      interpolis.com
      belnk.com
      zedo.com
      advertserve.com
      netshelter.net
      intellitxt.com
      contextweb.com

      So tell me again how there's no competition in this market?

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    3. Re:Hard to argue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If Google does get hold of DoubleClick, it means they're literally the only game in town.

      So? Becoming and even being a monopoly has never been illegal. Abusing your monopoly position is. As Microsoft of all companies should be well aware of ;)

    4. Re:Hard to argue by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      Ouch, don't put all those domain names in one list all at once like that.
      Now I'll have nightmares of dancing Bonzi buddies again. :-(

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    5. Re:Hard to argue by mixxu · · Score: 1

      Thanks. My adblock filters are now updated.

    6. Re:Hard to argue by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are basically no barriers to entry in the online ad brokering business. "Want to trade linkz dood?" Is a request to show advertising in exchange for compensation. In terms of pricing, it doesn't matter much what Google charges because they have to be a better deal to control the market(because I can go ahead and spend some money on Overture to see how effective it is). There is some possible danger that they become so large that not being allowed to advertise on their network becomes harmful but this deal isn't going to do that.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Hard to argue by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      I didn't include the ones that fit these filters below, because I didn't have the company names on them. You might like them as well. I find they take out a TON of ads, and I've had no problem with them removing real content.

      http:///banners/*
      http://ads./
      http:///adlog/*
      http://ad./
      http://chkpt./
      http://.ads./
      http://advertising/
      */ads?*
      https://ads./
      */adview.php?*
      */ad.*
      http://adzones./
      *?clickTag=*
      */img/ad_*
      http://adserver./
      *-ad?*
      */ad/*
      */bnr/*
      */ads/*
      */AffTrack.*
      http://adserver/
      http://partners./
      */phpAdsNew/*
      */klipmart/campaigns/*
      */advertisers/*
      */adverts/*
      */Adv/*
      */sponsors/*
      */smartserve/*
      */ad_*
      */pagead/show_ads.js
      *mediarevolver*

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    8. Re:Hard to argue by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes but mergers are blocked by the FTC if they would create a monopoly.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    9. Re:Hard to argue by cvd6262 · · Score: 1

      I teach college courses to preservice primary and secondary education teachers on how (if and when) to properly integrate technology into their teaching. One of the issues we cover is online safety, including user tracking by ad companies. I've found the following demonstration effective:

      With each teacher at a computer (we use laptops), walk them through how to view and clear the cookies in Firefox. With the cookies cleared, give them five or ten minutes to browse their favorite websites, check their email, etc. Then go back and check the cookies again.

      What you will find is a list very similar to your list of domains. After another five minutes of explanation, the teachers will ask how they can block the cookies.

      --

      I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.

    10. Re:Hard to argue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I guess, based on that you could argue that MS doesnt really have any chance of having a stranglehold on
      operating systems either?

      OpenBSD
      Linux
      BeOS
      OSX
      Mach
      Minix
      MyNOS
      TinyOS
      Osiris
      GOS
      Solaris
      Desert Springtime

  8. If there ever was... by bmo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...a justification of using the "sourgrapes" tag, this is it.

    I trust Google about as much as I trust any other corp (not much at all) but to see Microsoft crying in its oatmeal is just poetic.

    --
    BMO

  9. Tag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    slashdotters,

    Please join me in tagging this fine article "hahahahaha".

    Thanks,

    -normuser

  10. Re:As the say... by 91degrees · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And Microsoft have been duly punished.

    Should we give another company the chance to do damage the market by abusing monopoly powers?

  11. I have a very bad feeling about this by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Google is not an OSS company. Little of what they do has been released as free software. How much have they changed linux to optimise their operations? Who would benefit from the same patches? Nobody knows.

    Doubleclick was worth more to google because they could multiply it against the adsense data they already own. Microsoft didn't have as much to gain.

    Search is the new DNS. Anybody who owned and controlled all of DNS would control the internet. Most of the search market is controlled by google.

    Google is only limited in size by the fact that they are an internet company, and the internet is finite. But if they wind up owning much of the internet its not going to be good for the rest of us.

    I would love to be able to look forward 10 years and see exactly where this is heading. The don't be evil bit may just be ironic by then.

    1. Re:I have a very bad feeling about this by asninn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most of the search market is controlled by google.

      Is it really? According to Alexa, the top three websites in the world are, in order, 1) Yahoo, 2) msn and 3) Google. Maybe all the people who visit the former two do so for the news, or the groups, or the mail, but I'm not sure your hypothesis is automatically valid. Google sure seems to be the search engine of choice among geeks, but what about Joe Random and Suzie Sixpack? I don't think you can just extrapolate without doing any actual research here.

      But if they wind up owning much of the internet its not going to be good for the rest of us.

      I would love to be able to look forward 10 years and see exactly where this is heading. The don't be evil bit may just be ironic by then.

      Wow, talk about ominous gloom-and-doom prophecies. I'd love to be able to look forward ten years to see where everything's heading, too, but neither of us can. I think the term "FUD" is quite appropriate here: what you're trying to create is fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the absence of any actual arguments.

      Oh yeah, and since I just read your comment again, let me give another example:

      How much have they changed linux to optimise their operations? Who would benefit from the same patches? Nobody knows.

      I'm sorry, but that's FUD, too, although some rather underhanded one. The reason is simple: while the question "how much have they changed Linux" is a valid one, your second question and the answer you give to that not only already implies that the answer to the first one is "a lot" but also implies that others would not only benefit from those alleged patches but also that Google is holding them back for the sole purpose of not contributing back to the community - being evil, in essence.

      And while Google's contributions to the kernel are indeed much smaller than those made by other companies, that's still just FUD until you actually come up with some solid evidence to back up your claims. But then, the fact that you don't actually go ahead and *openly* accuse Google of doing anything unethical is probably evidence that you do not, in fact, have any.

      --
      butter the donkey
    2. Re:I have a very bad feeling about this by Wylfing · · Score: 1, Redundant

      According to Alexa, the top three websites in the world are, in order, 1) Yahoo, 2) msn and 3) Google.

      I thought it was well understood that MSN isn't being "visited" with intentional clicks. It just happens to be the default home page of 100 million people who don't know they can change it. If someone wrote a virus that changed everyone's IE home page to something other than MSN, it would fall out of the top 10 easily, and maybe off the charts altogether. I have never seen anyone try to go to MSN for any reason, or even heard of anyone wanting to.

      Google sure seems to be the search engine of choice among geeks, but what about Joe Random and Suzie Sixpack?

      Ah, yes, Suzie Sixpack. I dated her in college, when she was known as Suzie Kegger. In any case, the point is that although many people will use whatever search box pops up on their screen (see point above; this is why MSN gets any search volume at all), Google has a shocking amount of mindshare among the general public. I am surprised frequently by people I perceive to be non-technical talking about "Googling" things.

      --
      Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
    3. Re:I have a very bad feeling about this by TheCoop1984 · · Score: 1

      its not ironic now??? Google lost the 'don't be evil' a loooooong time ago...

      --
      95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
    4. Re:I have a very bad feeling about this by nbritton · · Score: 1

      Google is not an OSS company. Little of what they do has been released as free software. How much have they changed linux to optimise their operations? Who would benefit from the same patches? Nobody knows.
      Google is a marketing analytics company, they have no intention of pissing off their statistical sample space with obtrusive crap through doubleclick... Gmail, Froogle, Google News and Maps, Youtube, and Doubleclick are just a means to an end. If you still haven't figured it out I'll spell it out for you...

      They want to know everything you do, say, and think so they can sell it to other companies... for a hefty sum.

    5. Re:I have a very bad feeling about this by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 1

      1) Yahoo, 2) msn and 3) Google. Maybe all the people who visit the former two do so for the news, or the groups, or the mail, but I'm not sure your hypothesis is automatically valid.

      That's perfectly valid, and that's exactly what I do. I use Yahoo exclusively for mail, groups, news, etc.. and I use Google exclusively for search and maps and maybe a few other things.

    6. Re:I have a very bad feeling about this by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Anyone who thinks Google aint the number one search site in the world is on crack.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    7. Re:I have a very bad feeling about this by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      If someone wrote a virus that changed everyone's IE home page to something other than MSN, it would fall out of the top 10 easily, and maybe off the charts altogether. There are many such viruses and worms out there already. I've had to clean a few of them off peoples' computers.
    8. Re:I have a very bad feeling about this by Isochrome · · Score: 1

      Google is not an OSS company. Little of what they do has been released as free software. How much have they changed linux to optimise their operations? Who would benefit from the same patches? Nobody knows. It is so backward to imply Google isn't supoprting open source. Check out this article from Linux Journal:
      http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000076

      It's well known that Google runs its vast array of servers using a custom version of GNU/Linux. But this is only one aspect of its support for free software. Others include its Summer of Code, now well established as an incubator of both coding talent and projects, and more recently its open source code repository, which offers a useful alternative to Sourceforge.net. Similarly, in porting Picasa to GNU/Linux, Google has made contributions to Wine, while open source projects in Sri Lanka have been the beneficiaries of more direct help, to the tune of $25,000.

      But Google is also operating behind the scenes to bolster free software in other ways. For example, it came as a surprise for most of us to learn that the Mozilla Foundation was earning some serious money - figures of $72 million were bandied around - from the use of Google search as the default for Firefox's search engine. This deal alone must effectively pay for a good chunk of the Mozilla project.
  12. Horrible premonition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If MS can get Google identified as a monopoly, but then lose the case, they've given themselves a free ride out of any further antitrust proceedings they may find their lizard selves in in the future.

    1. Re:Horrible premonition by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Being a monopoly is not neccessarily a bad thing. The law allows for monopolies to exist. How a monopoly came to be and how it maintains being a monopoly are two things to consider. If a company comes to monopoly power simply by being the best through competitive means, the law usually has no issue with it. If that company does not abuse its monopoly through anti-competitive practices, the law has no issue with that either. One thing that is always considered is the barrier to competition and whether the company does anything to prevent others from competing through such means as predatory pricing, harassment, etc. In terms of online videos, Google and YouTube are not doing anything to prevent others from launching their own services. Same thing with DoubleClick. There are other companies to consider; DoubleClick happens to be the biggest. Contrast that with MS. Sun's Java might be a problem: Threaten Intel not to release a compiler or we will release an AMD optimized version of Windows. Netscape will lessen the dependence on Windows: Lock-in Internet Explorer with exclusive deals with OEMS and tell them we will raise prices if they don't agree.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  13. $3.1B in gif ads? by MLS100 · · Score: 1

    How the hell is Doubleclick worth so much money? I mean.. are that many people clicking ads? I can't remember the last time I clicked on an ad. Ads are an annoyance, the chance that: 1. I know what the ad is for. 2. I could use whatever the ad is for. 3. I can afford to purchase what the ad is for. 4. I feel like actually following through with purchasing what the ad is for. are slim to nil. How many of you are actually enticed by gifs/swfs flashing at you while you're trying to read something? /MLS

    1. Re:$3.1B in gif ads? by TheSpoom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're comparing the Slashdot population to the rest of the internet. There's a difference; we know most of those ads lead to spyware or just don't appeal to us, while many people outside think "ooh, downloadable smileys" and click right through.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    2. Re:$3.1B in gif ads? by vivaoporto · · Score: 1

      Well, to help to elucidate your question, just think: how many people out there are clicking SPAM links and buying their stuff, or getting scammed via shady mass email business? A lot, isn't it? Now think, what is more likely to be bigger, the marketing share and success rate of SPAM and mail scams or of the regular business advertisement, even obnoxious animated gifs and pop over flash, as long it is from reputable business like, for instance, IBM, who is kindly displaying a big ad right now over my comment?

    3. Re:$3.1B in gif ads? by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

      How the hell is Doubleclick worth so much money? I mean.. are that many people clicking ads?

      If that's your question, the relevant one would be how Google is worth so much more than even that, since clicking ads is their entire revenue stream too (give or take 0.1%).

    4. Re:$3.1B in gif ads? by djupedal · · Score: 1

      I can't remember the last time I clicked on an ad

      Click...don't click - both are data points.

      Regardless of your particular response to an ad, the real point is that enough people do click to make data mining a huge industry.

    5. Re:$3.1B in gif ads? by backbyter · · Score: 1

      "How the hell is Doubleclick worth so much money? I mean.. are that many people clicking ads?" It's not so much as you clicking ads that raises doubleclicks value, it's the fact that the ads (and that big ugly url) are on a page you viewed.

  14. Obligatory reality check regarding Google by i_want_you_to_throw_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Google is a publicly traded company and as such here's what's important to them.....

    Making money for their stockholders.

    There's a fluffy bunny love for Google that everyone has but they may as well change their motto from "Do no evil" to "We do less evil than everyone else". A monopolist Google is no better than Microsoft. I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but giving too much control to any company, much less a publicly traded one, is a horrific idea.

    Google is going to do what is best in their corporate interest.
    Surprised? Don't be. It's business

    1. Re:Obligatory reality check regarding Google by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      A monopolist Google is no better than Microsoft.

      Repeat after me: not being convicted of abusing a monopoly is better than being convicted of abusing a monopoly.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  15. Bang goes the hypocrisy meter. by jcr · · Score: 3, Funny

    It didn't just blow up, it's a rapidly expanding cloud of plasma.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:Bang goes the hypocrisy meter. by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      I belive what youre looking for here is "it was mutually annihilated into pure energy"

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:Bang goes the hypocrisy meter. by jcr · · Score: 1

      Ah, that would explain the mushroom cloud.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  16. Re:As the say... by spottedkangaroo · · Score: 5, Informative

    And Microsoft have been duly punished.

    I remember MS being convicted. I do not remember them being punished. IIRC, the administration changed and MS got away nearly unscathed.

    --
    Imagine if you weren't allowed to use roads because a bus company complained about your driving 3 times. --skunkpussy
  17. How big is this market anyways? by Raindeer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Interesting that AT&T joined in. They are moving against Google to support their Net Neutrality position. But let us look at how much money there really is in this market and then see whether an almighty Google might actually be able to hurt AT&T. Google currently makes 10 billion a year from 281 million broadband users worldwide. That's is $35/broadband user/year or $2.90 a month. Just look at the price of AT&T's offering and you can see that Google's ARPU is no more than a few percent of AT&T's ARPU (Average Return per User). Google's ARPU is supporting various content offers through this businessmodel, more than 40% of the ARPU flows to the content owner. So at the moment AT&T can beat up Google for a maximum of $2 per month per customer.

    So how big could Google's ARPU grow? In a country like The Netherlands 5.7 billion a year is spent on advertising to about 7 million households. This makes 67/household/month (and this number isn't growing too much) This is the total advertising expenditure on the national market and includes all major media: Newspapers, television, direct mail, cinema, magazines, billboards, internet etc etc etc. If Google can get part of that on a global scale, it amounts to a major amount of money. But now look at it from ARPU point of view. It would be hard for Google to get more then 10-15% of this market space ($6-$10/household/month) because they would have to replace all the existing ways of doing advertising and these are still powerful and sustain many content business models)

      If a telco can his hands on google's revenues, they might be able to knock a few dollars of the price of a broadband connection. But $6-$10 isn't going to pay for the line and the costly upgrades. Just go and look up the financial information of telco's to see how big they are and how much money they spend on a yearly basis. Google is dwarfed by that. (Broadband reports said that telco's would spend $41 billion on network upgrades just this year, Google made only $10 billion last year) Odlyzko was right when he said: "Content isn't King" and we can add to that "Advertising will never be king".

    So when AT&T says that Google is making money over their networks. We are talking about change compared to what AT&T is charging its customers.

    Will Google get a dominant position? Only if they offer content providers the most money for showing a banner and advertisers the greatest amount of clickthroughs. That is why Microsoft and Yahoo are loosing out. The offer less adviews per day, that generate less clickthroughs per thousand adviews and pay less per click and offer advertisers less conversions. Why would you use them? Nobody in the equation is getting better by using Microsoft and Yahoo not the content provider and not the advertiser.

    Now lets hope Google pays some attention to my pitch for Adsense for Charity. The idea is that anyone using Adsense can designate a percentage of their Adsense revenues for good causes or open source projects. Even if we are only talking about a very small percentage of Adsense users doing this, we still would be talking about millions of dollars per year) So please help out in spreading this idea, by linking to it or spreading it onwards.

    1. Re:How big is this market anyways? by azrider · · Score: 1

      Interesting that AT&T joined in.
      Um...No. According to the summary (I refuse to login to see NYT articles),:

      And Microsoft expects AT&T, Yahoo, and other companies to join them next week in protesting the proposed sale.
      This does not say that they have decided to back Microsoft.
      --
      And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
      John 8:32(King James Version)
    2. Re:How big is this market anyways? by Raindeer · · Score: 1

      Quote from the NYT:
      Microsoft was joined today by AT&T, a company that traces its lineage to the Ma Bell monopoly that was broken up in the mid-1980s. "We think antitrust authorities should take a hard look at this deal and the implications," said Jim Cicconi, senior executive vice president for external affairs at AT&T. "If any one company gets a hammerlock on the online advertising space, as Google seems to be trying to do, that is worrisome."

  18. true, true, but by vaith · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Setting aside the default "screw M$" spinal chord reaction, can't we concede that they do have a point here? The fact that they are guilty of being monopolists themselves doesn't mean they have nothing that's worth saying. Google's latest acquisitions have definitely set them on a monopolistic path as they expand ownership over content providers and now methods of advertising through those providers.

    Sure, Google conspiracy theories may be a bit of an exaggeration, but I think few people would disagree that an internet largely dominated by Google and Google-backed products, generating more Google revenue (positive feedback, anyone?) would entail the typical monopoly shortcomings (less innovation once the market is consolidated, arbitrariness, a bigger buffer zone for failed services, etc.). Right now I can't help but feel that Google is almost administering a utility, like water or electricity. Half of what I do online is powered (or directly coded) by Google -- ensuring a major share of the advertising revenue wouldn't be so different to ensuring they get most of their rightful toll/tax money for providing those basic services. Sure, there's nothing wrong with these services so far, but do we really want one guy centralizing all the cool net stuff? I for one, have to hand this one to our traditional Microsoft overlords.

    1. Re:true, true, but by zappepcs · · Score: 1

      Setting aside the default "screw M$" spinal chord reaction, can't we concede that they do have a point here? The fact that they are guilty of being monopolists themselves doesn't mean they have nothing that's worth saying. Google's latest acquisitions have definitely set them on a monopolistic path as they expand ownership over content providers and now methods of advertising through those providers. I think everyone forgets that MS bought Gator. Yep, that was some serious Internet business savvy.
      MS might well have something to say, but its real difficult for it to not sound like sour grapes. As for AT&T, hell, they are having enough trouble trying to kill Vonage and Skype. Killing off Google is a bit out of their league right now.

      Sure, Google conspiracy theories may be a bit of an exaggeration, but I think few people would disagree that an internet largely dominated by Google and Google-backed products, generating more Google revenue (positive feedback, anyone?) would entail the typical monopoly shortcomings (less innovation once the market is consolidated, arbitrariness, a bigger buffer zone for failed services, etc.). Right now I can't help but feel that Google is almost administering a utility, like water or electricity. Half of what I do online is powered (or directly coded) by Google -- ensuring a major share of the advertising revenue wouldn't be so different to ensuring they get most of their rightful toll/tax money for providing those basic services. Sure, there's nothing wrong with these services so far, but do we really want one guy centralizing all the cool net stuff? I for one, have to hand this one to our traditional Microsoft overlords. There is one simple reason that Google is becoming dominant: They build good products. They apparently are so good, you use them all the time. Google took the incredible risk of buying YouTube when some people said that you would have to be a moron to do so. Google has consistently taken what they have and created good solid products and services that PEOPLE WANT TO USE and this has built their business.

      So some people here want the government to regulate online advertising business? How can that be good? What MS and AT&T want is for the government to stop people (Google) from taking money from them. I don't like monopolies anymore than anyone else, but I can't see the huge danger here. That doesn't mean there is no danger, only that I don't see it. Google has not tried to kill off any of the other 100 or so search engines, they give away much of their products, and even if MS or AT&T bought doubleclick, chances are it would die on the vine in the face of competing with Google. That would still leave the same problems.
  19. Re:I'm glad they lost by Daengbo · · Score: 5, Funny

    This antitrust suit will end in Google being declared a monopoly in the online advertising business. Luckily for Google, they will be allowed to define their own punishment, and offer discount coupons for discounts on B-level keywords only. ;) Yes, some of us learn from history.

  20. Re:Put Words Into Useful Order by jjacksonRIAB · · Score: 2, Funny

    In Soviet Russia, kettle black calling pot the The YOU

    --
    Make a few bad jokes on /. and watch your karma become worthy of Hitler
  21. maket leader, yes, monopoly, no by timmarhy · · Score: 1

    there's a large difference here. google, does not rely on any technological or under the counter pressuring to maintain it's dominance. there's nothing stopping ms from setting up a better ad service. MS relied for years on bullying OEM's into only selling windows, and on IE being mangled into the OS to push out competitors.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:maket leader, yes, monopoly, no by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 1

      I know that it's not fashionable to appear to agree with Microsoft, but it's not exactly fair to maintain control of a market by buying out the competition, is it?

      --
      www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
    2. Re:maket leader, yes, monopoly, no by Stevecrox · · Score: 1

      You have no clear what a monopoly is, a monopoly is when one company has the majority of the market with almost zero competition. It is always bad for the consumer. Lets look at sound cards, Creative own the sound card market (I actually don't know the name of any other sound card manufacturer) is that good for the consumer? Taking a look at the Windows Vista Discussion forums, heck just any of the forums we can see it isn't. Creative use their position to keep prices unnecessarily high, provide the minimum support they can and churn out bad drivers.
      Sure Microsoft got to their monopoly position through some dirty business tactics but we can see the harm a monopolist in the OS market has done, 6 years for Vista? First new version of IE7 in how many years? There are other choices in the OS market and I'm pretty certain in some markets their better options but people don't choose them because "no one got fired for using microsoft". I would argue that Google is entering this realm of thinking, sure there's no technical reason stopping people switching but people don't because they know of Google and have never heard of the rest.

      Monopolies are bad, they can never be good, oligopolys are also bad but can be advantageous if regulated well. It doesn't matter how you became a monopoly or a oligopoly it just matters that you are.

    3. Re:maket leader, yes, monopoly, no by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But what does fair mean in this instance? The owners of DoubleClick no doubt think that the deal is quite fair, and presumably Google does also, so that leaves competitors, customers and content providers(the people that Google and DoubleClick buy ad space from). Ad buyers want the most eyeballs per dollar, and content providers want the most dollars per eyeball. No one can control what prices those people find acceptable, and thus what they are either willing to pay or willing to accept for a given ad or advertising space. So Google gains another chunk of the eyeball-dollar matching market in this deal, but they do not gain any ability to keep other people out of this market(because all I have to do to compete with Google, no matter how big they are, is match space dealers and buyers up more efficiently than they do). There is some danger that they get so big that it is hard for competitors to gain attention, but they can't buy up 100% of what they are selling, since all you have to do to make more of it is start up a website.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:maket leader, yes, monopoly, no by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 1

      I meant "fair in the eyes of the law". That's all that really matters here. I didn't mean to say that Google is gaining an unfair market position by buying DoubleClick. What I meant was that it is possible to create a monopoly without using underhanded tactics.

      --
      www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
  22. potkettleblack is right... by confused+one · · Score: 1

    wasn't Microsoft in the bidding for DoubleClick as well?

  23. Could it not be argued this way? by pandrijeczko · · Score: 5, Interesting
    From the point of we normal mortal users, if Google gets hold of DoubleClick then (as we've seen historically with them) they'll keep to low key advertising that isn't in your face - unlike Microsoft who will no doubt use any means to ram Vista down our throats with Flash-based adverts.

    I do agree that Google isn't necessarily the "sweet-faced cherub" in all of this, but from my own personal perspective as a general computer geek who uses non-Microsoft products (Linux and Open Source) more than Microsoft ones, so far Google have given me free of charge a good search engine with minimal advertising, an email system with almost 3 GB of storage space that (unlike Hotmail) is pretty good at catching spam and doesn't keep emailing me with useless adverts, the very useful Google Earth tool and "Docs and Spreadsheets" which I have found very useful for collaboration and for converting Word docs (albeit simple ones) to PDF. Plus I've not even looked at all the other Google services that I could subscribe to.

    I do accept that MS does give quite a bit away to VB/DotNET/Whatever developers but for me, as an occasional coder in Perl, Python, shell scripts and a little C, there's nothing of any use to me that MS gives away.

    So from my own selfish viewpoint, I'd rather Google was left to get on with it and MS kept their hypocritical noses out of it - and if Google does ever start pulling their monopolistic weight, I'll worry about it then.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    1. Re:Could it not be argued this way? by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1
      But I'm just a simple "Joe Bloke" with no real interest in corporate practices as long as what corporations do doesn't adversely affect me.

      I want the freedom to run what applications and operating systems I choose to run - I'm happy to pay anyone (including Microsoft) for good quality, useful and value for money products but I don't want to be forced into using products from a specific vendor.

      As a computer geek in both my work and hobbies, the biggest fact stopping me from fully choosing what software I can use are proprietary file formats that try to lock me in to specific software packages. Since MS file formats are the most popular (specifically those used in MS Office) then their business practices make what I want to do that much more difficult - whereas what Google does makes what I want to do easier.

      So from my limited view of the world, I have little sympathy for MS anyway - they don't do much for me so why should I care about them?

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    2. Re:Could it not be argued this way? by Xymor · · Score: 1

      It's open standards a monopoly?

    3. Re:Could it not be argued this way? by Xymor · · Score: 1

      Aren't, not it's.

  24. scary cookies by AdrianZ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Ad-serving networks like DoubleClick place tiny programs on personal computers, called cookies, that monitor where an individual user goes online."

    That's the scariest part of the article... that a publication like the NY Times still hasn't figured out what a cookie is, or worse, has but yet misrepresents it to scare people over to their POV.

    1. Re:scary cookies by hexadecimate · · Score: 1

      > that a publication like the NY Times still hasn't figured out what a cookie is, or worse, has but yet misrepresents it to scare people

      I have to imagine the writer is being spoonfed straight from an MS bottle. The NYT uses cookies *itself* to monitor you when you access its site, so any halfway-credible NYT writer would know better than to play this card. Plus, does the writer really not understand that MSN and Windows Live themselves use cookies to monitor a user's activity?

      On Slashdot that comment would get the writer troll-modded to oblivion. What's it doing in a reputable newspaper?

    2. Re:scary cookies by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

      Oh $DEITY if only I had mod points for this guy... saved it to txt anyway.

      --
      C|N>K
  25. Mod parent up. by lilomar · · Score: 1

    Here here! Couldn't have said it better.

    --
    The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
  26. Just wondering by matt328 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is there anyone here who actually allows content from *.doubleclick.* to their PCs?

    --
    Check out the cave on the east side of lake Hylia. Strange and wonderful things live in it.
    1. Re:Just wondering by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 1

      True, I've had them filtered out at the firewall or hosts file level since 1997 or so. In fact now that I think about it, they might be the oldest entry in my current hosts file. I should send them a card!

  27. I wanted MS to buy DoubleClick by GreatDrok · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Am I the only one who was disappointed when Google beat MS to this? I was hoping that MS would buy them and then force all Windows users to view the ads and kill off things like adblock etc for the Windows platform. This would have been the single biggest win for the non-Windows community ever because it would drive everyone who currently blocks DoubleClick etc off the platform.

    Oh well, I can dream can't I?

    --
    "I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
    1. Re:I wanted MS to buy DoubleClick by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one who was disappointed when Google beat MS to this?
      I'm not disappointed.

      I was hoping that MS would buy them and then force all Windows users to view the ads and kill off things like adblock etc for the Windows platform.
      I doubt Microsoft would do such a thing during this period of time.

      it would drive everyone who currently blocks DoubleClick etc off the platform.
      No it wouldn't.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    2. Re:I wanted MS to buy DoubleClick by someone1234 · · Score: 1

      Also it would have provided M$ a revenue stream to compensate their Vista losses and continue their campaign against the free world.

      --
      Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
    3. Re:I wanted MS to buy DoubleClick by oGMo · · Score: 1

      Don't worry... Microsoft losing DoubleClick just means they have to invent their own technology and get their own customers. This pretty much means that not only will people be forced to watch ads, they'll be crap ads and crash the OS regularly. ;-)

      --

      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

  28. I don't know what's funnier.... by Chyeld · · Score: 1

    Microsoft complaining that another company will have a monopoly in an area, or Microsoft expecting AT&T to join in the party.

    I mean really, couldn't they at least rely on a more classy monopoly like DeBeers? Or am I missing it and they want their complaint to be made by companies that have been sanctioned themselves for violations of the anti-trust laws?

  29. LWN.net knows by Craig+Ringer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Google submits a significant number of changes to the mainstream Linux tree, as shown by (among other things) this recent lwn.net article. For 2.6.20 they landed up rougly between Intel and HP ... both of whom have much more reason to be working heavily on the kernel, especially on the server end of the market.

    Of course, there's no way of knowing if they maintain whole new optimised subarches, special file system drivers, etc in-house... but I suspect that anything they do keep private is mostly not released because it won't be very useful outside Google. Perhaps they're limiting access to things that'd only be useful to their direct competition in immense data warehouses - but y'know what, I don't care myself. I wouldn't be surprised if the kernel folks would reject any excessively specialised or over-complex changes anyway.

    That said, as you pointed out little of what they do is releases as OS. More than most companies (at some) - including some nice search and data handling tech and some handy libraries - but hardly the crown jewels. I for one do not find this overly troubling.

    I do, however, share your spine-crawling feelings with regards to the DoubleClick association. I've never been fond of DoubleClick at the best of times, and don't like the thought of their data being combined with Google's.

    1. Re:LWN.net knows by Craig+Ringer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I should however note that:

            - The LWN data is pretty limited (being based on line deltas / number of commits) and a single sample ... not really solid comparison material. Then again, I do cite it only as an example of a broader trend (Google being fairly active in kernel work).

            - My assumptions about what they keep private are exactly that, but based on the fact that they do release more tech than most, and that it's in their interests to get useful things that aren't too critical or specialised merged. Doing so reduces their workload significantly, especially with core (non-FS/driver) changes, isn't bad techie PR, and lets them focus on any specialist stuff they *are* doing. It's speculation, but not baseless or wholly uninformed.

            - AFAIK one of their more basic techs, the Google File System, is done in userspace anyway. Certainly most of their interesting work is.

  30. Re:Microsoft's days as software leader are over... by Dan_Bercell · · Score: 1

    looking at the home, business and web businesses Microsoft still seems like a leader to me, what world are you living in... lol

  31. Can't be all bad by ajs318 · · Score: 1, Offtopic
    If Google buy up DoubleClick, eventually all the doubleclick URLs will change to google URLs. Then I will be able to take a line out of my Squid configuration file!

    acl adverts url_regex doubleclick
    acl adverts url_regex falkag
    acl adverts url_regex googlesyndication\.com
    acl adverts url_regex intellitxt
    ...
    http_access deny adverts
    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  32. Too... much... irony... by brennanw · · Score: 1

    must... counter... irony... with...

    with... ... oh, hell, there IS no counter to irony.

    --
    Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
  33. Bwooo hoooooo uhuhuhuhu huuu uhuhu whoooo by unity100 · · Score: 1

    Its crying time eh ?

    antitrust was not the littlest of concerns for microsoft while it was stamping on the competition back in 90s.

    see, that was what went around, but this, THIS is what comes around. (from scrubs)

  34. Re:As the say... by Chyeld · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And Microsoft have been duly punished. Should we give another company the chance to do damage the market by abusing monopoly powers?
    Since it isn't illegal to be a monopoly, just illegal to abuse the position. And since Google hasn't acted like Microsoft by ever using it's position to wipe out competitors. Yes, lets.

    Those who act responsibly should be allowed positions of responsibility. Those who act selfishly, should be barred from those positions.
  35. Re:Inevitable by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means--oh wait, sorry. Wrong word. :P

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  36. Advertising Monopoly? by RepCentral · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I doubt that anyone can be a monopoly in advertising.
    Ads aren't like fuel oil, precious metals, telephone communication,
    business computers or operating systems. A customer's lack of choice
    in consuming advertisements means less sales for the advertiser.
    The advertiser would then be unwise to continue allocating money towards
    a loosing advertising channel and the problem would correct itself.

    It's hard enough to imagine a monopoly on search with 3 giant companies in
    the market but a monopoly on advertising is just a silly concept to me.

    1. Re:Advertising Monopoly? by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      A customer's lack of choice in consuming advertisements means less sales for the advertiser.
      I have no idea what your point is, but never forget that in advertising the advertiser is the customer. The guy who buys the product is just part of the process.
      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
  37. Re:Pot kettle black. by maxume · · Score: 1

    Why would you ever feel sorry for any corporation?

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  38. If it meant that much to them by Pixel+Rider · · Score: 1

    then why is there a Microsoft ad, through Google, directly below this article? You would think that MS would use their own advertising system, as opposed to pumping money into Google for theirs. Just caught my eye as I was reading.

  39. Re:Microsoft's days as software leader are over... by Jugalator · · Score: 1

    You may need to go remind yourself of how the software market still looks like again...

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  40. MSN by Wilson_6500 · · Score: 1

    You know, people always talk about MSN being one of the top web site in the world. I was given a bit of pause when I realized that IE's default start page is MSN, and that--at this university at least--very few people seem to bother changing it. I, for one, don't, and so every time I log into any public computer on campus and start up IE, it goes straight to msn.com. How many IE users out there in the world just don't bother to change their start page and just use whatever comes up by default?

    1. Re:MSN by LihTox · · Score: 1

      Isn't "google" one of the top searches on MSN's search engine? I've been told that many people type google into MSN's search box, and then do their searching from Google.

  41. Re:Pot kettle black. by neersign · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wouldn't call this "the pot calling the kettle black", it's more like "the kettle calling the pot a kettle."

  42. Double-click Windows Integration by donjefe · · Score: 1

    If ms buys them, we can look forward to adverts being nicely integrated into the OS and browser. Wouldn't that be sweet....

  43. Not a good reader? Last line it all. by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But it would be better if MS, Yahoo, and Google were prevented from buying DC.

    Google is a natural monopoly and has earned their position. Until they tie it to something or pull an illegal act, they should not be regulated (but should be watched to make sure that they do not do a MS). But it is in the consumer's best interest to not allow this.

    MS, OTH, has shown that they are an illegal monopolists (multiple times) and will obviously continue their actions. Always. Why? Because it is FAR cheaper to cheat and pay the trivial penalties that govs. apply, then it is to have to compete fairly. They should also be banned.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  44. Wait, how exactly does this hurt consumers? by Broofa · · Score: 1

    Heaven forbid that Google should actually become a monopoly in online advertising. Why, they could drive the prices through the roof making it difficult or impossible to advertise online. Oh, whatever shall we do!

    Now if they decided to buy the AdBlock plugin for Firefox, then I'd be worried.

  45. The cynical position is usually right. by hey! · · Score: 5, Interesting

    But it's not always right.

    We should be clear on one thing: There's nothing wrong with getting a monopoly by outcompeting or outsmarting others.

    What's bad is using your monopoly position to deny other vendors access to the market. This means not only refraining from things that only a monopolist can do, but refraining from doing things that have uniquely anticompetitive effects when done by a monopolist. The fundamental axiom is that competition is good.

    Google may be a monopolist as far as desktop search is concerned; if so it's probably the most unstable monopoly in history, thanks to net neutrality. We could all simply switch to yahoo tomorrow if we wanted to. The greatest danger relating to Google is in their service APIs, in which they could potentially induce developers to build applications on top of Google services, then crush the developers by the user of secret extensions. But they have shown no sign of doing that yet, because for the time being most of the innovation around Google APIs is coming from Google.

    As odd as it sounds, companies have character, like people have character. Some companies (e.g. Lotus) never seem to be able to come up with a decent user interface, whereas surely all they need to do is hire some HCI experts early in the development cycle. Microsoft got where it was by cunning and aggressive competition. Nobody begrudges the huge windfall they got by snookering IBM over PC-DOS. They saw the potential and were looking farther down the road than IBM. But when they used their power to punish distributors who distributed competitor's products, they were doing something illegal and they knew it. The temptation is stronger for them because of the company's aggressive, strategic character.

    Google is a company with a fundamentally different character. They are much more innovation driven than MS, which is much more focused on reacting to what the competition is doing. The only way to survive in a MS dominated marketplace is continual but disciplined innovation. The problem with companies that tried to compete with Microsoft is that they tried to compete with Microsoft. It's critical not just to think outside the box, but stay far from the box as possible, because MS owns the box.

    Microsoft has forced the industry into a post-postmodernist style of competition. The postmodern strategy exploits niches that are social constructs of the vendor community. The post-postmodern strategy is to fulfill customer needs more effectively. It's back to basics, with a twist; you still have to look at what the competition is doing, but instead of conforming to that, you have to harmonize but not conform. Google builds its services on top of standards, but it builds them with an unique Google style and feel.

    This switch in competition style is why we see so much more major vendor support for open source. Not that putting your thumb in the competition's eye isn't desirable anymore, but it's lower on the chain of values. In an industry dominated by one vendor, there can only be one winner at that game. So cooperation via open source becomes a possibility. Google is not a major player in open source, but the reason they often get lumped in with vendors who are is that they share common characteristics of having a longer term, customer centered strategy.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:The cynical position is usually right. by Sancho · · Score: 1
      Does "snookering IBM over PC-DOS" mean "implementing hidden API calls to prevent Windows from running on PC-DOS" (exactly the sort of anticompetitive behavior you implied would be bad of Google to do?)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS***, most notably:

      • Microsoft QuickC v2.5, a.k.a. Programmer's Workbench and Microsoft C v6.0, modified the program's Program Segment Prefix using undocumented DOS functions, and then checked whether or not the associated value changed in a fixed position within the DOS data segment (also undocumented). [1]
      • The (once infamous) AARD code, a block of code in Windows 3.1's WIN.COM that was XOR encrypted, self-modifying, and deliberately obfuscated, that used various undocumented DOS structures and functions to determine whether or not Windows really was running on MS-DOS. [1]
      • Interrupt routines called by Windows to inform MS-DOS that Windows is starting/exiting, information that MS-DOS retained in an IN_WINDOWS flag, in spite of the fact that MS-DOS and Windows were supposed to be two separate products. [1]
      I, for one, begrudge Microsoft's 'snookering' of IBM's PC-DOS.

      They also used undocumented APIs to make their version of Office out-perform competitors. I'm sure a simple Google search would turn up the relevant facts.

      *** I'm generally loathe to cite Wikipedia, however in this case, it's just regurgitating information that's available elsewhere, and it's doing it all in one place. Also, it has citations.
    2. Re:The cynical position is usually right. by hey! · · Score: 1

      No. It's fooling IBM into thinking they didn't need to have an exclusive on PC-DOS because the hardware was unique.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  46. Re:Inevitable by sharp-bang · · Score: 1

    Dang, if you'd've gone through with it, I was going to reply you keep using that catchphrase, I do not think etc. Been waiting for years to do that. Oh well. Next time. ;-)

    --
    #!
  47. Re:Huh? How CAN you eliminate competition? by aegisalpha · · Score: 1

    You know, switching the words doesn't exactly make your snarky turn-around analogy make sense.

  48. Differences by weston · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft would immediately turn it into an abusive monopoly and Google won't. What's the difference between the two?

    Microsoft is a convicted monopolist and serial abuser of said monopoly power with an operational philosophy/culture that encourages this. Google isn't.

    For the most part, their 'product' is invisible.

    Maybe to the average consumer. Not to those buying online advertising.

    While Google has many competitors in that marketplace, none of them get a lot of press. Or any press at all, aside from trade journals.

    It's because none of Google's competitors have managed to duplicate both sides of their business:

    (a) online advertising
    (b) interesting, useful, highly usable information technology services

    Google has good stuff on both sides of the equation. They sell ads on websites. They create websites that are premeire destinations on the web and sell ads on them. Nobody else really does both of them as well.

    There are many competitors that do online advertising pretty well. And those are invisible to Joe Consumer, but not to those buying online advertising (hence the trade journals).

    1. Re:Differences by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is a convicted monopolist and serial abuser of said monopoly power with an operational philosophy/culture that encourages this. Google isn't.

      With a highly over-inflated share price which they are yet to justify and a lucrative emerging market which they are set to dominate, Google is in an extremely similar position to Microsoft in the early/mid 80's just before they started all their monopolistic practises.

      Remember back then, Microsoft (kinda like Google now) were often seen as "the good guys", challenging IBM and the other Unix vendors' dominance of the IT industry.

      There are many competitors that do online advertising pretty well. And those are invisible to Joe Consumer, but not to those buying online advertising (hence the trade journals).


      And they are?

      I'm no on-line advertising consultant, but I am a professional web developer and so probably one of the more educated amongst the typical on-line advertising consumers. I still could not name another worthwhile online advertising service though besides Google, DoubleClick and Microsoft.

      A Google/Doubleclick alliance would encompass nearly all non-Microsoft affiliated on-line advertising which would certainly give them - coupled with the almost ubiquitous google.com search engine - a monopoly position completely open to abuse.
    2. Re:Differences by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Microsoft is a convicted monopolist...

      Seriously... What the hell does that line mean? There is nothing illegal about being a monopoly. It is illegal to abuse monopoly status, but being a monopoly is not illegal.

      What your use of that phrase implies though is fairly obvious. Your just another MS bashing troll who thinks MS was magically granted all their success by the monopoly fairies.

      Because all of their products have been crap since that first complier written by Bill Gates himself.

      People like you need to wake up to the fact their is NO DIFFERENCE between Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc. They all do everything they can to improve their bottom lines.

      A corporation is a emotionless entity with the sole purpose of creating a return on an investment by shareholders. PERIOD.

      Google and Apple just haven't been caught yet...

      Google will run into legal issues as it becomes a monopoly in the online advertising market.

      I am not sure about Apple though. There may be something special about media. The media companies have abused their complete control over content creation, licensing, distribution, etc. for decades. I honestly can't understand how they have gotten away with it for so long.

    3. Re:Differences by dwpro · · Score: 2, Informative

      Seriously... What the hell does that line mean? Glad you asked. The general connotation is that they are a monopoly that has been convicted for abusing said monopoly status. Google has publically labled Microsoft that way, and Oracle Chief Executive Larry Ellison called them that back in 2004, so its not like the parent invented the term.

      For quick reference United States v Microsoft and European Union Microsoft antitrust case
      note that MS has, in fact, been convicted of monopolistic practices more than once. A repeat offender one might say.

      People like you need to wake up to the fact their is NO DIFFERENCE between Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc. I think that it is quite unfair to stereotype all corporations based on the wort behaved ones. I agree though, that some media corps have gotten/are getting away with murder.
      --
      Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
    4. Re:Differences by Ambidisastrous · · Score: 2, Insightful

      More specifically: Microsoft already has an infrastructure for creating an abusive lock-in situation, and the ability to leverage its monopoly status in one area to gain an unfair advantage in another area. Windows and Internet Explorer have huge market dominance and are completely proprietary, rather than borrowing existing standards -- not that that's evil by itself, but it allows the single vendor of these products to change the infrastructure at will and force the market to follow. Windows Live, Vista and IE7 are being marketed to function as a complete, closed unit controlled by Microsoft. Successfully buying a strong position in the online advertising industry adds another piece to this closed infrastructure and allows Microsoft to essentially force online advertisers to conform to this framework, or risk losing access to the majority of the market. A corporation's sole responsibility is to create value for its stockholders without getting nailed by the SEC, and Microsoft has created its business such that the best way to create this value is by using its monopoly position and lock-in tactics. So that's what they'll do. Google does not have this framework in place, and has no infrastructure to create vendor lock-in. Every one of Google's popular web apps allows an easy out -- Gmail is easy to export, using a different search engine is trivial, and web mapping services are now essentially a commodity. If you don't like AdSense, there are plenty of other ad networks to go with (including Microsoft's fledgling), and there's no significant barrier to joining or leaving. Google succeeds because its search is reliable, its mail client is simple and useful, and AdSense is dead simple to use. There was no passing of the monopoly torch in its early days, no set of proprietary protocols, and no long-time company strategy of creating lock-in as the basis for extracting profit. The strategy instead is to be useful, ubiquitous, and unimposing. The Google empire will collapse as soon as it starts to suck; right now it's far from sucking, and Google benefits most from easy access, open networks and standard protocols. So that's what they'll fight to maintain. And yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as corporate culture. Executives bring aboard managers who think like themselves, and so an organization does tend to resemble its leaders throughout -- at least on the upper half. These folks entrench themselves, and so companies rarely change once the culture's established, until their finances go to hell and they're dismanteled. Microsoft has a predatory leadership that believes very strongly in maintaining closed standards; Google managed to keep a tech-startup mentality in its leadership, so they'll push for easy access and a constant shuffling of other startups and new technologies. I think this recent media-sprawling we've seen of Google is the effect of trying to predict and block Microsoft's strategy of swooping into the content-ownership world and eventually owning all the distribution channels.

  49. Re:As the say... by patiodragon · · Score: 1

    When people say it enough, it becomes an idomatic expression. You cannot make sense of it by putting the parts together, but if you're not an idiomat, then you know what it is referring to.

  50. Obig. simpsons by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    "Microsoft crying in its oatmeal"

    Best summary, ever!

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  51. Let me get this straight by nevali · · Score: 1

    Microsoft wants all of Google's many competitors to get together and complain that Google won't have much competition left if they buy DoubleClick.

    Riiight.

  52. Whining by jshriverWVU · · Score: 1

    Ok I'll use this as my first karma burn. WTF! MS is whining because another company who's kicking their butt is trying to buy another company to make themselves better? Uhm, and how many companies has MS borged? *shakes head*

  53. One... Two... by skia · · Score: 1

    Microsoft expects AT&T, Yahoo, and other companies to join them

    Wait. That's Microsoft, AT&T, Yahoo... one, two, three -- and others!

    Sounds like there's plenty of competition in this space.

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    --

  54. Re:As the say... by mdm-adph · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Nope -- all charges were overturned by the Bush Administration (pretty much). [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1361934.stm]

    --
    It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
  55. Call me crazy... by mdm-adph · · Score: 1

    ...but I see a Google flavor of Linux coming out soon.

    --
    It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
  56. Wow...that means... by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 1

    Flaming chairs, fireballs and online ads everywhere - not a good time to be a microsoft employee.

    --
    I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
  57. sour grapes .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    I understand that MS put in a bid for DoubleClick. Does that mean if the had suceeded, they would have reported themselves for antitrust violations.

    'Online advertising firm DoubleClick Inc. is exploring a sale and is in talks with Microsoft Corp'

    I am sure they are sour

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  58. Sigh... by John+Pfeiffer · · Score: 1



    That is all. (God I'm lazy.)

    --

    Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
  59. Re:As the say... by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Informative

    They had to go through the court procedure, and pretend they were going to play nice in the future. And then buy various politicians.

    All they're asking is that Googleclick are forced to do the same.

  60. intuition tingling by fuliginous · · Score: 1

    I can't put my finger on it but something about advertising being able to be a monopoly sounds absurd. I think it is because to have total control it seems like you would have to own everything that can be used for advertising. Then there is abuse of it. I can see there being simple grounds for seeing abuse, if for example they refused to take adverts for Microsoft Search. But because it would be so easy to police (spot) any such abuse there again doesn't seem to be a problem.

    Finally because your customers will take the advert revenue elsewhere if you stop being attractive it encourages you to be innovative to keep their money coming. That stays true because of the inability to tie people into your service other than by being a top choice for use. Even though you could look at the Google APIs as an attempt to do so?

  61. youtube + doubleclick by null-sRc · · Score: 1

    1) buy youtube video distribution
    2) buy doubleclick advertising distribution
    3) ???
    4) combine the two
    5) ???
    6) profit!

    --
    -judging another only defines yourself
  62. Re:As the say... by mdm-adph · · Score: 1

    Eh? Are all posts that mention the Bush Administration automatically modded down or something? Is what I said not true?

    Please, if someone else is aware of another administration that overturned the Microsoft verdict, please enlighten me, because as far as I knew, it was the Bush Administration.

    --
    It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
  63. Whither Google? by gidds · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Search is the new DNS.

    Indeed. But I reckon that's a very mixed blessing for Google.

    Google's ability to rank the search results is based on links from other pages. Now, when the web was young and blue-eyed and men everywhere were free, they navigated using lists of bookmarks, and by following links. In many cases they published their lists of bookmarks on their web sites, so that others could discover interesting sites. This meant that most interesting sites had lots of links to them, which Google could harvest and use.

    But now, when the main route to finding sites is to use Google, Google itself has less to go on. With fewer people creating links for it to harvest, how can it work out its rankings?

    Of course, it still has lots of links from blogs and automated sources. But are those as relevant, as useful from Google's PoV? Have we reached a point where even the best search algorithms are being starved of data to work from?

    --

    Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

  64. freedom to innovate? by renard · · Score: 1
    Wait a minute! What about Google's "freedom to innovate"?

    Does MS really want the government trampling on that?

    -renard

  65. Question is: by Z00L00K · · Score: 1
    <Flamebait mode ON>

    What does DoubleClick do for me? I only see it as a bandwidth waste together with many other ad servers trying to fill my hard disk with useless cookies.

    Just because a lot of ad companies now are misusing the flash player it has started to get less useful, and not even flashblock helps for all cases.

    <Flamebait mode OFF>

    In reality most of us wouldn't care less if this was going into the ditch or not. A tip to advertisers is to try to avoid intrusive ads and keep them constricted to a reasonable frame. Intrusive ads will just pull down the usability of a web site.

    And M$ shouldn't complain - they have set all the IE browsers to go to MSN by default. So any statistics provided about popularity of MSN should be considered coloured...

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  66. So what it boils down to is really... by Taelron · · Score: 1

    You cant let them buy it!!! We want to buy it!!!

  67. Google contributes lots of kernel patches... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    You wrote:
    "How much have they changed linux to optimise their operations? Who would benefit from the same patches? Nobody knows."

    (Disclaimer: I work there.)

    Seems like we contribute quite a bit back.

    The kernel used in the Google Search Appliance can be downloaded from
    http://code.google.com/patches.html

    Also, here are a couple ongoing, open source, projects at Google to enhance the Linux kernel:
    http://lwn.net/Articles/199643/ - kernel containers - for lightweight virtualization
    http://code.google.com/p/zumastor/ - filesystem snapshots, remote replication

    You can see quite a few patches here:
    http://groups.google.com/group/linux.kernel/search ?q=google+patch&scoring=d

    Heck, the guy two desks down from me is working on removing the command line
    length limit; that's something Google needs internally, and he's going to
    great lengths to get his code upstream (making it work in hppa, for gosh' sakes...)

  68. MS was also upset about Netscape by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    This seems very similar to MS sounding the alarm about Netsape - before msie took over.

    For anybody other than MS to have a monopoly is catostrophic.

  69. "Microsoft contends" by l3v1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft contends...

    Geez, this is so freakin' stupid, I can smell it from the other side of the pond. It's a damn money game, if you want that dblclick so much, pay more, it's so easy ! Why come out in the light with "arguments" which smell so badly and rotten of piles of bullshit that it makes everyone and dog with at least as much brain as a chicken laugh out loud in pain ?

    Of course they don't like the idea of Google taking something away from their nose. Of course they would want a bigger part of the online ad cake. Of course they would do anything to stop Google becoming more powerful in the area. And yet, instead of paying the price, they start antitrust accusations ? Now come on, this behavior is downright ridiculous. And of course they would want yahoo and co. on their part in this case, despite them knowing all too well what would happen to them if MS put their hands on a pig part of the online ad business. Right ?

    It's easy to take away others' lunches while you're the big guy. Thing is, some things aren't meant to last forever. Go figure.
     

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
  70. Seriously... by hitmanWilly1337 · · Score: 1

    Translating this into M$peak:
    competition=M$ and its puppet corporations
    hurt=deprive M$ of its own monopolistic efforts

    Seriously, pot and kettle anyone?

  71. Obviously by microbee · · Score: 1

    M$ is afraid that Google turns into the dark side.

  72. Oh, I tend to agree with you. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    As I said, politicians swim to the money. MS is loaded, but Google is growing fast AND spreading it around. Today, Google is a GOOD company. But so was MS when it first started. Overtime, BG and Balmer showed their true colors. Now, MS is evil. How soon will it be, before Google has the power to turn a well-built natural monopoly into a locked (and illegal) monopoly? I do think about that. The funny thing is that they have interestign opportunities available to them. They are about to lose a number of employees. It would be smart of them, to set up a program to fund spin-offs. These ppl will want to spread their wings and try new and different ideas. Even those ideas that do not use google core technology would be useful.

    Key to MS (and companies like them, such as Google and Yahoo); Power Corrupts. Absolute power Corrupts Absolutely.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  73. Knowledge IS power by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Double click currently tracks us (as does google). That is why they are able to determine what ads to show us. Now, imagine if MS owned them. They could combine this with MSIE so that when a page is displayed, they know which parts are ads and which are not. They could simply cause the ad to be downloaded BUT not displayed. They would then replace it with their OWN targeted ad. That is the power of owning the KNOWLEDGE and the tool.

    Now, with that said, even if MS does not get to buy DC, they are quickly gaining that knowledge. It is only a matter of time before they have the same capabilities (and market share) as DC. At that time, MS will probably do this trick.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.