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New Motherboards Disallowing IDE Booting?
wattsup asks: "It seems that bootable IDE ports are disappearing on newer motherboards. I recently purchased an
MSI G965M-FI motherboard for a system upgrade. Overall the board is pretty good with lots of features, but it had one unexpected 'feature' that I didn't know about when I bought it. The PATA100 IDE port won't allow you to install an operating system from an attached CD-ROM. Does anybody know if this is an issue that can be fixed by
upgrading the BIOS, or is this hard-wired into the IDE controller?"
"While its on their website, MSI doesn't tell you this on the retail packaging, until you break the seal on the static wrap and look at the motherboard. There, with a tiny label placed over the IDE connector, they inform you 'This IDE
does not support OS installation in hard drive'.
This made my out-of-box experience rather maddening, as I had to get a USB based CD-ROM to install a fresh copy of XP. This seems like a pretty lame way to save money, disabling functionality on an IDE port that's included. Some research shows me that other manufacturers are doing the same thing. Why?"
This made my out-of-box experience rather maddening, as I had to get a USB based CD-ROM to install a fresh copy of XP. This seems like a pretty lame way to save money, disabling functionality on an IDE port that's included. Some research shows me that other manufacturers are doing the same thing. Why?"
Yeah, I've yet to hear a 100% success story -- on Windows or Linux -- with those JMicron IDE controllers. They are absolute pieces of shit, and the drivers are even worse than the controllers.
Motherboards based on the intel 965 chipset do not have ide (pata) ports unless the mb maker adds a discrete chip. It then becomes a matter of cost to add simple ide support or a full blown ide host akin to a full scsi type host that supports booting.
As most boards are configured, the bios could boot off of an ide based DVD drive, but when the modern OS gets control, it will not see the ide ports since it isn't part of the chipset. Just like scsi needs drivers (or modules) loaded, the new ide will need these too. Ultimately, intel made the decision to use the pins needed for 2 separate ide ports for many more sata ports.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
On the MSI site you linked, it states "On-Board IDE (USB to IDE)
1 IDE port by JMicron JMB20335."
You can locate that part on JMicron's website
I haven't found a datasheet on it yet, but my assumption would be that chip doesn't allow booting. Essentially what you have is an MSI board without IDE support. Because that sucks, they integrated the JM20335, a USB to PATA bridge chip, much like what's likely used inside your USB CD-Rom drive. Unfortunately, it would seem this USB chip is non-bootable, like many USB Flash drives... Remember, I'm speculating on that outcome as I haven't found a datasheet.
To save a nickel a unit of course.
(Which is understandable given that they need to maximise profit and removing features that are almost unused in their target market is a good way to do it. Real engineers don't overspec!)
Beep beep.
Your mom selected my cable just last night and it was definitely enabled.
Firstly, should this really be posted on /. ? This is a support/hardware forum posting.
The answer is simply that the P965 chipset has no native PATA controllers in it and so motherboard manufactures provide support for these legacy interfaces (decided as legacy by Intel) through a 3rd party controller chip which is not controlled by the BIOS and requires device drivers to be used. Motherboard manufactures have realised the continued need for PATA ports which is why they are kind enough to provide the extra chip. So no BIOS update will fix this and yes it is a trend, pushed by Intel (and potentially other chipset manufacturers), which will continue. It could be considered that Intel's decision to drop PATA was a little premature due to the relative lack of SATA DVD drives, but DVD drive manufactures have said that the majority sold with finally be SATA by the second half of 07.
SATA optical drives have been around for a while, newegg has 15 different drives listed. Burners starting about $35US.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
I know it's still stupid having to do it in the first place, but couldn't you just use an internal drive with a PATA-to-SATA connector?
which is the same thing the posted indicated was on the sticker.
MSI didn't just update because of a
Just remember - if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off.
I wanted to add a 5.25" floppy B drive to my new Intel Core 2 Duo system, and the bios doesn't even recognize it! What will I do now if I need to read something from a 5.25" floppy?
Why not pick up a SATA CD/DVD drive? You can probably get an unboxed OEM for about $30. You might also be able to get a SATA -> IDE adaptor, but I don't have any experience with them.
It's very difficult to be backwards compatible with everything. Ignoring cost, it adds complexity and difficulty to the development process; and could potentially reduce reliability. As another poster in the thread added, Intel decided to go for more SATA ports in the chipset.
Let's face it, it's 2007, and IDE is quickly on its way out. Why should we hamper a chipset with functionality needed so that you can save $30?
I do empasize with you. This weekend I picked up a Mac Pro, and much to my surprise, I can't run dual monitors unless both are digital. (I can't bear to part with my 17" CRT.) I tried transfering my PCI video card from my old desktop, but it seems that the Mac Pro doesn't use PCI.
Now if I could only get Windows Vista to run on my P100!
No, I will not work for your startup
I've had something similar on an IBM xSeries (quite an old bit of kit) which was designed for SCSI drives. A small copy of lilo or grub on a boot floppy set to chainboot hd(0,0)/hda5 sorted it out, though.
Well, it's not entirely MSI's fault as Intel dropped PATA from the chipset--which saves a LOT of pins that can be used for other things or make the Southbridge a lot smaller. MSI probably should have used an IDE to SATA bridge chip instead of an IDE to USB bridge chip, though, as that could have been transparent to the rest of the system, though it would have wasted probably 2 SATA ports. It's a trade off...
Yeah, I've yet to hear a 100% success story -- on Windows or Linux -- with those JMicron IDE controllers. They are absolute pieces of shit, and the drivers are even worse than the controllers.
I recently tossed a pair of USB external HD enclosures, with JMicron chips on the bridge boards, in the trash. Under heavy load the USB device would just drop off the bus. Warning: JMicron inside.
Me, throwing away hardware - that's pretty rare (ask my wife - the one time I throw away hardware it's because they hosed her photo album - she can't win). Also, lesson learned: don't run RAID on two of the same bridge chips - they're likely to fail at the same time.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The cost?
Roughly $30 to $40 for the low end models and around $100 for the high end.
Not only are SATA drives cheap, but IDE->SATA adapters can be had online for $4. Additionally, using SATA optical drives bypasses the worst offenders of CD based DRM like Starforce.
Regardless, MSI should have put this warning right on the front of the box in large type. People don't look in the fine print for confirmation of what is considered basic functionality.
Many games nowadays block all non-IDE CD-ROMs, as VirtualCDs tend to be all SCSI drives.
Well SATA CDs are SCSI too (IIRC). What happens as games refuse to recognize your perfectly normal SATA DVD drive? And, of course, the game publishers response will be to go F' yourself
I mean, I've had this 20 meg MFD drive for like 15 years now, why can't modern computers keep up with something so simple!?
Honestly here, IDE(PATA) is a dieing format. It has a competitor that is just as cheap and even better performing. A new 250GB SATA hard drive and SATA CD/DVD burner can be yours for just over $100.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Alternatively, go grab Smart Boot Manager and avoid messing with configuring lilo/grub/whatever.
SBM pulls up a nice list of every bootable device on your system (including ones that aren't supported by the BIOS), and lets you boot from them.
I've looked around on newegg a bit and didn't find anything, but are there any ATX boards with a socket AM2 that have NO PATA ports? The only thing I have that uses them is a CD-ROM, which I can quite easily convert/replace with an SATA. I'd really like to find a board that lacks any PATA ports to simplify my cabling. :)
bork bork bork!
'Well, given that, it's only offensive and not horribly stupid. One of the best things about PC hardware is the amazing backwards compatibility...'
It's still horribly stupid. There are SATA optical drives but there is no particular reason for a normal pc user to use them. Or to use SATA for that matter. Most people only have one HDD and one optical drive, you don't really benefit from SATA under those conditions. It's especially annoying because most boards only give you two SATA ports.
You've got back-ups on audio cassette, right? Try those.
Just, not in the floppy drive.
If you're willing to pay more the $14 I'm guessing you could find a better drive. It's not like the cheapest drive Lite-On makes is your only choice -- I'm guessing most people buying an SATA optical drive would at least buy a DVD-ROM drive for the $3 price difference.
8 2E16812206001
Or for a whopping $9.99 you could buy an adapter and use whatever IDE drive you like:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N
This may not work with your board, but might be worth a try.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
PATA: wide flat cable that supports two device per cable.
SATA: small, narrow cable that supports one device per cable.