Turbo Tax Melts Down on Tax Day

Raven17 writes "Turbo Tax by Intuit completely melted down under the load from last minute filers. Some people have been having problems as long as 24 hours already. I surrendered 2 hours before the East Coast deadline and schlepped on down to the Post Office."

Comments

Back up at the wire

[kannibal_klown]

My mom used TurboTax (I got stuck w/ TaxCut this year). Anyway, she said it came back up just a few minutes before midnight. People were flipping out.

Personally, I did mine back in February.

Re:Back up at the wire

[metlin]

I just find it way easier to pay an tax preparer to do it for me.

Easier and less of a headache. Besides, they tend to get you more savings than you would by yourself.

Re:Back up at the wire

[profplump]

Who the f*** decided that sentences on the Internet shall no longer be formatted with two spaces after a period?! The doubled space after after a period rule was a hack to deal with the hard-to-read mono-spaced fonts on old computer and typewriters. Set type never used a double space after a period, before or after typewriters -- they used 1.5 spaces. And if your fonts are worth anything, they should approximate that 1.5 spaces with a full stop and a single space.

Re:Back up at the wire

[Mortanius]

NPR had a longer on-air piece about this, but unfortunately all I could dig up on their website was this brief (though the Listen link provides the whole story).

NPR : IRS Urges E-filing - But by Vendors Only, Please

Basically, Intuit (and presumably H&R Block and any other tax software producers) lobby long and hard to make sure the public can't e-file directly to the IRS, only by proxy. So your $16.95 is presumably going entirely to Intuit. Plus the $44.95 (or more, or less if you're lucky) you paid for the software. Plus the additional $29.95 if you have to file to two states.

It's a pretty nice gig.

Re:Back up at the wire

[ThosLives]

Except that's not at all how the government controls money supply: The Federal Reserve is the source/sink of dollars, not the IRS.

Money supply is controlled by the sale and purchase of bonds and the interest rate, not through taxes. This is why the Fed uses the interest rate to affect inflation. It's the effect on the amount of cash the Fed has to pay out to 'buy back' its bonds. Basically, if the Fed wants more cash in the market, it buys bonds more than it sells them; if it wants to curtail the money supply, it buys fewer bonds back than it sells. Note that the Fed target interest rate is based on the supply and demand for the notes. Also note that it's a target rate - the media and literature always calls it "the target federal funds rate". Because to get that rate, the Fed has to buy or sell its bonds. To increase the rate and "slow down" the economy, the Fed sells more bonds. The reason this increases the rate is because to sell more bonds, it has to make them more lucrative to the purchaser which means a higher interest rate. What happens then is the buyer gives dollars to the Fed in exchange for a bond. Note that a bond is not money, so money has effectively left the money supply.

When the Fed wants to reduce the interest rate, it starts selling fewer and fewer bonds (or buying bonds back). This reduces the supply of bonds so, for a given demand, the "price" the buyers are willing to pay (a lower interest rate) increases. Either way, this either puts dollars directly back into the economy via a buy-back, or indirectly because fewer people are buying the bonds so their cash stays in the system. Buying back takes bonds out of the free market and replaces them with dollars.

This mechanism, while not perfect, also helps adjust the money supply to a larger economy, because when real wealth is created in the economy, the creator of that wealth gets more dollars and more bonds are purchased. When those bonds are purchased back or redeemed for face value plus interest, there is an increase in available dollars. Inflation happens when the market guesses wrong at the interest rate, and more dollars are paid out during redemption than is representative of the current actual wealth. Similarly, if the economy contracts the money supply can also contract because eventually the interest rates on the bonds will fall and less additional money is required to redeem the notes; this will reduce the money supply relative to the amount of wealth. Stagflation happens when the nasty effect of a shrinking economy is paired with increasing inflation. (Yay for basic macroeconomic theory).

Another key thing to remember is that the Fed and money supply only control the tokens representing value in the US; they don't directly control wealth (and, as is important to note, value and wealth are not the same thing).

Re:Back up at the wire

[gnuman99]

This is the "haha" factor for you! Government *prints* money. As much as they want. And US is probably one of the worst countries in that regard. IT just hasn't cought up with them yet.

Money is viewed as a money supply. M1, M2 and M3. US doesn't even publish M3 money supply!!!

For more information about M1,M2 and M3 money supplies,
    http://economics.about.com/cs/money/a/money_supply .htm
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/M3SL.txt
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/M2SL.txt
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M2

Regardless, money supply is increasing now faster than before. How? Gov't is printing money. It is preferable that the money supply is representative of some real value, but it is not. US has been running a huge trade deficit now for a number of years, yet the currency has not devalued as much as needed. The reason is that other countries like China and Japan are storing their USD and not buying stuff with it. So it should be clear that money just represents a perceived value, not a real value.

When gov't "borrows" money, it may mean A LOT of things. In the US, they just transfered the money from the retirement plan (whatever it is called - social security?) which is currently overpaid, and spend the money. Now that they'll need to dip into the retirement funds, well, there's nothing in that "account" so they'll just move it from elsewhere. To get money you can issue bonds, increase taxes or just print money. The problem with printing money is inflation (devaluation of the fiat (or paper only, like USD) currency). They more you print, the less a single unit is worth. So essentially inflation caused by money printing is exactly the same as a flat tax.. Right now the inflation in the US could be lowered by slowing down of the money printing. *But* US can't do that because they have to pay for the deficits. So instead of increasing taxes, they just print money. The result is exactly the same (less purchasing power for people), but when you increase taxes the politicians get blamed, but when they print money the "economy" gets blamed. Another problem with printing money is that countries that hold huge amount of USD will start to see their stockpile decrease in value. So they will start to spend. And this will drive inflation in the US.

The US economy may be nearing a tipping point where the USD will be devalued by as much as 50%. For example, USD lost 30% with respect to CND (Canadian $) in the last 2 or 3 years. It used to be 1.6 CND/USD, but now it is 1.12 CND/USD. If a US person got a CND savings account that got them NO return at all (0% interest rate) they would have gained 43% in 2-3 years. An investment of 100,000 USD to canadian currency would result in 160,000 CND. Today, 160,000 CND is worth about 143,000 USD. This is all because of devaluation of USD due to US trade deficit. And the US trade deficit is NOT yet accounted for because China and Japan hold over 1 trillion USD!! They spend that, and USD is devalued further.

The GP probably described the tax system as best as one possibly can. You are just a little ignorant that the value of fiat currencies is arbitrary.

PS. Gov't does actually need to *print* money. They just punch in a number and that's how much money is lend out. It only takes a fraction of a second to create another billion and thereby decrease the value of current money.

Re:Back up at the wire

[mutterc]

One needn't wait... one can spec on one's tax forms a date to direct-debit the amount owed, anytime up to 4/15.

for those of us that done speak Yiddish

[otacon]

schlep : to drag or haul (an object); to make a tedious journey (from Yiddish shlepn; cf. German schleppen)

Re:for those of us that done speak Yiddish

[elrous0]

...and pronounced like someone with pneumonia would pronounce "slept"

IRS did offer an extended deadline for some

[Anonymous Coward]

For people in the recent storms, IRS is allowing an additional 48 hours. Also, the TurboTax site says they're working with the IRS so people have their returns counted as on-time.

I'm just glad I did my taxes weeks ago when the system worked, and when it was cheaper.

Re:Only Fools Wait Until The Last Minute

[Mr. Underbridge]

It was basically a manual DNS attack. With so many waiting until the last minute, what do people expect? File at least a day before the deadline. What difference does a day's worth of interest make on the average IRS tax bill? And if people are so concerned about a day's worth of interest, print the damn return and mail it with a check. That way you get a few more days of interest.

All true, but the fact that people wait until the deadline is not news. If you're going to get into the online tax-prep business, you'd better have a stout server. This kind of failure can kill a business.

Turbotax Issues

[mwilliamson]

I had royal problems when I got to the very last step on turbotax, right where you click to submit to the IRS. After a good 15 second wait, I got an error about being overloaded, and to try again later. What really sucked is that I couldn't start from that point again, but instead had to re-visit the last bunch of questions I had already answered. Being their Website is so format heavy, each screen took a good 10-15 seconds to draw on this 1.8 Ghz box, so the entire process was quite annoying. After 3 tries and some minor sheet-rock damage, I had to print the whole damn thing out and drive across town to our main post office. To add insult to injury, turbotax took my money before this last step was available. This sucks. I got ripped off, and I wont't get my tax refund in the usual week and 1/2 since I had to mail it. (at least a got a refund though...albeit little bitty)

Re:same as in real life

[tha_mink]

In real life, and online, you can get much better results by filing a day earlier. Not true with Turbo Tax, they were melted on Monday too. The meltdown's been reported on the boards since Monday morning.

Re:Turbo Tax: Pain in the rear

[CastrTroy]

Wow, that's expensive. I'm using uFile in Canada, and it's $16 to fill in your return, and submit it electronically. All inclusive.

Re:Netcraft confirms

[__aaanwh8370]

TurboTax.com does not host the online TurboTax application - that's the brochure-ware for turbotax. Those servers also do not host Intuit's electronic filing services (which are hosted indenpendently from turbo tax online as well).

The TurboTax web app is hosted @ www.turbotaxonline.com and still runs on Solaris (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.turb otaxonline.com)

Extended IRS deadline for East Coast Filers

[mumbaiyaa]

Procastinators rejoice!
The IRS website says:

R-2007-89, April 16, 2007 WASHINGTON -- Victims of the major storm affecting several Northeastern states on Monday, April 16 will have two additional days to file their tax returns beyond the April 17 tax deadline, the Internal Revenue Service announced today. Taxpayers directly impacted by the storm have until midnight April 19 to meet their tax filing obligations without incurring late filing and payment penalties.

Re:Only Fools Wait Until The Last Minute

[Agelmar]

There's a problem with your argument... you say that if one pays now, one can start saving up for next year now and wind up with the same amount of interest gain. The problem is that you assume the two are exclusive.

There's no reason I can't start saving up now *and still* keep the $10k in the bank until 4/17. Assuming you're making some non-zero return off of your money, it hurts you to give it away any sooner than you have to. No matter when you start saving for next years taxes (or whatever other confounding factors you care to throw in), you are going to lose two months' interest on $10k by filing in February rather than April, and although it's not going to make a huge difference, it's rather pointless to throw that money away.

Re:Only Fools Wait Until The Last Minute

[pla]

What difference does a day's worth of interest make on the average IRS tax bill?

Just for those who never thought about this, what you suggest works the other way, as well... As long as they owe you a refund, nothing bad happens if you file a day late.

The IRS bases all its penalties on how much you owe. Don't owe anything? No penalties for filing a day late.



The government cares that it gets your money. It doesn't care so much if you don't get your money.

2-day Extension

[flamingnight]

If you were affected by the storm that hit parts of the East Coast over the weekend, the IRS has granted a 2-day tax extension. Just write "April 16 Storm" on your return.

EULA

[Wisconsingod]

TurboTax online has a few key points in their EULA that will protect thiem from these fiascos.

to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, intuit and its suppliers are not liable for any indirect, special, incidental, exemplary or consequential damages or for damages relating to loss of business, telecommunication failures, loss, corruption, security or theft of data, viruses, spyware, loss of profits or investment, tax positions taken by you, inability to file your return, or the like, whether based in contract, tort (including negligence), strict liability, product liability or otherwise, even if intuit or its suppliers have been advised of the possibility of such damages and even if a remedy set forth herein is found to have failed of its essential purpose.

the software and services are provided "as-is" and, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, intuit, its affiliates, licensors, participating financial institutions, third-party content or service providers, retailers, distributors, dealers and suppliers (collectively, "suppliers") disclaim all guarantees and warranties, express or implied, regarding the software or services, including any warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, title, merchantability, and non-infringement. intuit does not warrant that software or services are secure, free from bugs, viruses, interruption, errors, or other program limitations or my personal favorite, don't buy the software until you print clause....

you may use the software without charge up to the point you decide to print or electronically file your tax return. printing or electronically filing your return reflects your satisfaction with software, at which time you will be required to pay or register for the product.

Re:Only Fools Wait Until The Last Minute

[Peter Mork]

As long as they owe you a refund, nothing bad happens if you file a day late.

My gut reaction was that you still have to file on time. But, I stand corrected and I think you for the information.

Re:It's so unfair

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, certain tax forms (such as certain Schedule K-1 forms) do not have to be sent to individuals until the end of March. I didn't have all the necessary forms to file my taxes until the first week of April.

Nothing inherently wrong with fiat currency

[ccmay]

So we all agree instead that a dollar represents an abstract concept of value.

It may be abstract in some sense, but it does have a very practical value: It makes tax collectors go away if you give some of it to them, without stealing your cows or chickens, or ejecting you from your home at gunpoint, or clapping you in prison. This is a great advancement in the history of civilization.

Fiat currency does not have to be inflationary, if the government has the discipline not to increase the money supply by a greater percentage than the national economy's increase in productivity. Theoretically, it can even undergo deflation, which you might remember being discussed in worried tones about seven or eight years ago at the height of the tech bubble.

Conversely, the buying power of commodity-backed money can fluctuate wildly. Spain had dreadful inflation after conquering the gold and silver mining regions of the Americas. In the late 1800s, the question of whether to use gold or silver for backing the currency was a matter of great dispute, because with the discovery of the Comstock Lode and other great silver deposits, farmers and other debtors clamored for a silver-backed currency in full knowledge that it would be inflationary.

Gold-backed currency would not be a good idea for a modern economy. If technology increases the efficiency of gold extraction, a gold note loses value and inflation results. If the mines play out, money becomes more valuable and the nation suffers deflation, even if there is no good reason for it in the economy as a whole.

So long as the government accepts its own greenbacks for payment of taxes owed, and prudently manages the money supply, there is no need for concern about "fiat" money. The best thing we can do to ensure this is the case is to demand transparency from the Federal Reserve, and closely scrutinize the qualifications and good judgment of those persons appointed to its governing board.

-ccm