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The Math of Text Readability

An anonymous reader writes "Wired magazine has an article that explains The Law of Optical Volumes, a formula for spacing the letters on a printed page that results in maximum readability. Wired's new logo (did anyone notice?) obeys the law. Unfortunately, Web fonts don't allow custom kerning pairs, so you can't work the same magic online as in print. Could this be why some people still prefer newspapers and magazines to the Web?"

282 comments

  1. Volumes not areas? by jakosc · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It's basically kerning pairs, but instead of just a few pairs, it's generalized to maintain the area between all combinations of letters:

    The Law of Optical Volumes states that the area between any two letters in a word must be of equal measure throughout the word, and remain consistent throughout the body of text. So why 'Volumes', not 'Areas'?

    If Scott were more of a geometry wonk, he'd have dubbed it the Law of Optical Areas rather than volumes, but that doesn't sound as imposing. Why stop there? A Law of Optical Hyperspace would be even better...
    1. Re:Volumes not areas? by paeanblack · · Score: 5, Funny

      So why 'Volumes', not 'Areas'?

      It looked better in print.

    2. Re:Volumes not areas? by Ahnteis · · Score: 1

      Correct me if I'm forgetting my geometry, but volume is usually a 3-dimensional measure while area is for 2 dimensions.

    3. Re:Volumes not areas? by catbutt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Volume" also has more general meanings such as "amount, bulk, mass" (according to Websters). I imagine this meaning is much older than the one used in math to refer specifically to 3 dimensional geometry.

      "Area" also has general meanings that go beyond 2d geometery (example: "area of expertise"). If looking at all meanings of the words, I think "volume" is really the better word.

    4. Re:Volumes not areas? by AvitarX · · Score: 1, Redundant

      RTFA.

      It is explained and really short too.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    5. Re:Volumes not areas? by roscivs · · Score: 1

      RTFComment. He quotes the part of the article where it is explained, and makes a joke about it.

      --
      ~ roscivs
    6. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm very confused...

      In the article it explains that 'kerning' is spacing letters based on their shape and stuff, for example, V and A together, VA, are spaced more closely. They it goes on to explain that kerning doesn't exist with computers, but it only exists in print. Maybe I'm just running an incredibly modern-futuristic computer here, but my computer arranges letter closer together and further apart depending on their shapes... is that different from 'kerning'?

    7. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erm...RTFP?

      He's quoted that section in the post, so I would guess maybe he did read it?

    8. Re:Volumes not areas? by DTemp · · Score: 1

      First off... if you add up the series 25+24+23+...+3+2+1, its equal to 325. So theres 325 combinations of two letters, not 10000. But I'm not an expert on kerning.

      I HAVE spent 2000+ hours using Adobe InDesign in the past year, and I do use optical kerning on almost every body of text I deal with. I'm guessing this is what they are talking about (although optical kerning would work much better with fonts with good kerning pairs).

      Something else that improves visibility on justified text is optical margin alignment, where punctuation marks go outside of the margins so that the actual words can line up along the gutter.

      As far as web fonts go... we have much bigger fish to fry before we start worrying about optical kerning. Such as character encoding, and non-compliant browsers.

    9. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent comment away. I read the post and then the article. I missed the last line between the two.

    10. Re:Volumes not areas? by coopex · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting uppercase/lowercase combination, and the fact that ab needs to be different than ba, so the actual numbers needed would seems to be in the thousands, but I'm too lazy to check English letter pairings and do the math.

      --
      The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    11. Re:Volumes not areas? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't there be 25 combinations per letter? ab and ba have one combination per letter. abc has two per letter, and so on. Throw in numbers, caps, bold, italic and punctuation and you are at least a little closer than 325.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    12. Re:Volumes not areas? by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      First, a capital-lowercase pair has a different kearning than a cap-cap pair or a lowercase-lowercase pair, so that's 51+50+49+...+2+1. Then, there are ligatures such as fi, and letter-number combinations (1st), and punctuation marks, and non-English characters such as eth, and non-Latin alphabets, and...

      I can't say that 10,000 kerning pairs is surprising.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    13. Re:Volumes not areas? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Say what now? Add the series? why would you do that?

      There are 676 possible combinations of two letters (26)^2. But that doesn't include punctuation or capitals, or numbers. Including all the numbers (10), commas, quotes, periods, and colons and all the punction above the number keys yields 2*26+10+10+5 = 77, or about 6,000 possible two-glyph combinations. And that's just with most of the standard English glyphs.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    14. Re:Volumes not areas? by BlowChunx · · Score: 1

      I guess I missed the math class that covered this, and since I am trying to correct you, I in turn will make a mistake ( think of the grammar nazis...). But here goes:

      I have the choice of 26 letters for the first letter, and 26 letters for the second. To me that's not a series, it's just 26*26 = 676. Still not 10000, but double your number...

    15. Re:Volumes not areas? by dierdorf · · Score: 1

      First off... if you add up the series 25+24+23+...+3+2+1, its equal to 325. So theres 325 combinations of two letters, not 10000. But I'm not an expert on kerning.

      It's 26..., not 25, because a letter can be paired with itself.

      It's 200..., not 26, because upper and lower case letters, numbers, punctuation, etc. are all kerned.

      I have to admit I don't know how many kerning rules there are once one has added in Greek, Arabic, Hebrew, Devanagari, Hangul, Cyrillic, Cherokee, Katakana, and Hieroglyphic, but I think 10,000 would be low. Anybody know the kerning rules for Chinese?

      Any total has to be basically doubled, because order is important -- the kerning rule for "LT", for example, is not the same as that for "TL".

      Your third sentence is perfectly correct, though.

      --
      -- John Dierdorf, Austin TX
    16. Re:Volumes not areas? by servognome · · Score: 4, Funny

      So why 'Volumes', not 'Areas'?
      Because 'Volumes' let you go up to 11.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    17. Re:Volumes not areas? by twistedcubic · · Score: 2, Informative

      This probably isn't the reason, but in math, the general term used for the capacity of an object, regardless of its dimension, is "volume". And so "length" refers to the volume of a 1-dimensional object, and "area" refers to the volume of a 2-D object.

    18. Re:Volumes not areas? by Hewligan · · Score: 1

      I HAVE spent 2000+ hours using Adobe InDesign in the past year, and I do use optical kerning on almost every body of text I deal with. I'm guessing this is what they are talking about (although optical kerning would work much better with fonts with good kerning pairs).

      Really? You shouldn't.

      If you're using decent fonts, they come with kerning pairs which will work at the size for which they're intended (so body fonts should not need optical kerning at body copy sizes). Optical kerning is for those times when, for example, you run Gill Sans at 60 points. Then it's default kerning pairs will be far too wide, and optical kerning will provide better kerning pairs.

      Still, none of that beats properly done manual kerning, but you only ever expect to do that on a headline. Even then, it's better to start with something that's close to right.

      --

      "If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated"

    19. Re:Volumes not areas? by fractoid · · Score: 1

      So why 'Volumes', not 'Areas'? Everyone seems to think volume refers to length^3... what they're really saying is how LOUD the text looks. Obviously.
      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    20. Re:Volumes not areas? by OECD · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm just running an incredibly modern-futuristic computer here, but my computer arranges letter closer together and further apart depending on their shapes... is that different from 'kerning'?

      Related, but more different than not.

      There are monospaced fonts, where each letter takes up the same amount of space regardless of shape, so xxx and iii are the same width. Then there are proportional fonts, where the letters are as wide as the rectangle it takes to contain them, so xxx is much wider than iii. This is what you're thinking of.

      Kerning takes it a step further. A proportional font that doesn't have some kind of hinting (and a program that can read/implement that) will still put too much space between the letters VA, while one that does will allow the V and A to 'invade' each other's rectangle. It can get quite complex with all the different glyphs (letterforms) that have to work with each other.

      I'm mystified as to who would say computers can't do this, since I use them to do exactly that every day. It really has more to do with the fonts and applications (and possibly the OS) you are using.

      --
      One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
    21. Re:Volumes not areas? by pyite · · Score: 1

      I HAVE spent 2000+ hours using Adobe InDesign in the past year, and I do use optical kerning on almost every body of text I deal with.

      Ah, which is why I'm so happy I use TeX. Knuth et al. really perfected computerized kerning. Visit here for some examples of the beauty of TeX.

      --

      "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

    22. Re:Volumes not areas? by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 1
      right, which is why tfa says

      If Scott were more of a geometry wonk, he'd have dubbed it the Law of Optical Areas rather than volumes, but that doesn't sound as imposing.
      --
      blah blah blah
    23. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point I was trying to make is that (on my screen) the V and the A DO invade each others' "rectangle" VA VA... the A goes under the V.

    24. Re:Volumes not areas? by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 5, Informative

      AAAAAAAAAA
      VVVVVVVVVV
      VAVAVAVAVA

      no it doesn't. It looks like it might when you just look at the two letters together... but it's just an illusion. (see above example).

    25. Re:Volumes not areas? by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 1

      So why 'Volumes', not 'Areas'?


      It's also an issue of contrast. For black text on a white background a kerning space of a darker grey would appear smaller than one of a bright white even if the areas are the same. Add color to this and determining what the contrast ratio actually is becomes much more difficult. There is for example no such thing as a 'dark yellow'.

      'Volume' seems more appropriate since it is a bit ambigous; much as the subject matter at hand. A whole subsection of graphical design is devoted to it.
      --
      All rites reversed 2010
    26. Re:Volumes not areas? by tsa · · Score: 1

      In a two-dimensional world, everything has one dimension less than in a 3D world. So a volume in the two-d world has only two dimensions. Because we live in a 3D world we can look at the 2D world 'from the top', so we can see area, but the 2D people have no concept of that.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    27. Re:Volumes not areas? by Andrew+Kismet · · Score: 1

      Chinese and Japanese are typically monospaced, since they have no " " space characters in their alphabets, and each character roughly takes up the same square block. Only calligraphy does without this monospacing, prefer the aesthetic look as well as the meaning of the characters to their standard form.

    28. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Dude..
      VA
      Highlight one and look at the other.. unless you're drunk (like me) :P

      If you're using lynx you're SOL :P Maybe?

    29. Re:Volumes not areas? by Pieroxy · · Score: 3, Informative

      The parent's point is that a line of 10 Vs is as wide as a line of 10 As. So if a line of 5 "VA" is as wide, it basically means they don't invade each other. Do you mean to say those three lines are not the same width on your system ?

      Then it just means one thing: You might look at two different fonts... Because your systems (OS, Browser) might just be different...

    30. Re:Volumes not areas? by nitroamos · · Score: 1

      Because it speaks volumes, that's why.

    31. Re:Volumes not areas? by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      Also on mine the VV and AA join at the top of the V and the bottom of the A, where a font with proper kerning would leave a gap.

    32. Re:Volumes not areas? by suffe · · Score: 1

      One could argue that an area is just a volume with a 0 length size and thus that area is just a subset of volumes. Or one could conclude that this is Wired and they wanted it to sound cool.

      --

      Karma: 2.71828182846 (Mostly due to small, fun pills)
    33. Re:Volumes not areas? by OmnipotentEntity · · Score: 1

      On my screen it does. Some fonts have kerning. The most common fonts in Windows don't. The most common fonts in Linux do. Hmm...

      --
      "Build a man a fire warm him for a day, set a man on fire and warm him for the rest of his life."
    34. Re:Volumes not areas? by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the article is codswallop.

      Look at the colophon example:
          http://blog.wired.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/u ncategorized/2007/04/17/lov.jpg
      which they insist has equal volumes of yellow between each letter.
      Then look at the 2nd and 3rd yellow areas - vastly different.

      This reduces the credibility of the author to approximately zero.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    35. Re:Volumes not areas? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say they are "vastly" different. If you extended the yellow area up to the top of the 'l' they probably would be equal in area.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    36. Re:Volumes not areas? by bogado · · Score: 1

      Some browsers do kerning while others do not and you can't prove that by putting V and A's together because what you see in your browser is not what the same that I am seeing in my. Fact is that mine here (at work, but shhh) does not do the kerning dance while my computer at home does. To test, if you are using firefox in linux (not sure about others), simply select a line with the VA up to V if the spacing changes you had kerning before the selection was made (the selection border does not follow the kerning).

      The kerning information is stored in the font file, that's why you can't change it within the browser easily. My wife is a book designer and this is one of the thing she hate about the internet, the other is the fact that browsers don't do hyphenation, without this you can't properly justify a text.

      --
      []'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins

      ^[:wq

    37. Re:Volumes not areas? by podperson · · Score: 1

      It's a web-browser thing. The same text in the same font (on Mac OS X) in TextEdit will be pair-kerned correctly.

    38. Re:Volumes not areas? by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      Which actually kind of interests me. If I select part of the text, I can clearly see the line of division between the two letters. I wonder what text selection would look like with a font obeying these rules. Seems it'd be kind of ugly.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    39. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Looks fine on my system. But then I'm on an OS with competent font rendering. If you want to see what well-rendered "web fonts" (a thorougly bogus term) look like, see these three screengrabs I've just taken:

      http://www.simon-smith.org/images/kerning1.png
      http://www.simon-smith.org/images/kerning2.png
      http://www.simon-smith.org/images/kerning3.png

      It's particularly noticeable for the word 'Lyrid' in 'Lyrid Meteor Shower', and the VAVAVA line in the second post. Oh look, it's even kerning it correctly in this text box as I type.

      I run at 1360x1024 on a 17" display, by the way. The first grab appears to me at about 3" by 5", the second at about 2.5" by 6". Give it another 5 years or so, other OSes should have caught up by then . . .

    40. Re:Volumes not areas? by rabidGoat · · Score: 1

      In one-dimensional space, volume is called length. In two-dimensional space, it's called area. In dimensions higher than three, it's still called volume. IANA geometer, but the mathematicians I know wouldn't hesitate to use the word volume for two-dimensional area. In common English, the word area often refers to what mathematicians might call a region. A region is a collection of points, while the volume of a region is just a number. So the word volume can be used for disambiguation.

    41. Re:Volumes not areas? by pz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, you're wrong. On the screen font you happen to be using, under the OS you happen to be using, on the browser you happen to be using, using the rendering engine you happen to be using, it might or might not support kerning. So, you might or might not see the effect.

      To a great extent, the resolutions available for computer screens sufficient to even think about kerning have only recently become available to the mainstream. Kerning is a subtle, but important, effet that most screen fonts are designed to not require (because of the limited rendering resolution).

      You can, however, easily tell the difference between a properly hinted font where the hints have been correctly used and one where things are just wrong by printing out some text on a decent printer (ie, nearly anything manufactured in the last 2 years). If you typeset, for example "VA" on a kerned font, and very very carefully compare where the "V" ends and the "A" begins, you'll see they overlap just a hair. As in 1/72nd of an inch. The difference between a properly typeset font and one that's lacking kerning is the difference between a beautifully drawn pen-and-ink illustration and something hacked together with Powerpoint.

      --

      Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
    42. Re:Volumes not areas? by Duggeek · · Score: 1

      But I'm not an expert on kerning.

      Somehow, that doesn't stop you from expounding on it... why?

      I HAVE spent 2000+ hours [...] and I do use optical kerning on almost every body of text I deal with.

      OMG... I'm terribly sorry. Who told you to use kerning on body text!? No wonder you've spent so much time with InDesign.

      Someone with the experience should have told you to use tracking on body text and reserve kerning for just the larger headlines. You might have saved some time with that.

      Something else that improves visibility on justified text is optical margin alignment, where punctuation marks go outside of the margins so that the actual words can line up along the gutter.

      I'm sorry... is this a comment on the current state of typography? I don't know about others, but optical margin alignment is only truly relevant to block-quotes, bulleted lists and sometimes numbered lists (but only when aligned to the mark and not the digits; something MS Word still doesn't do) and is otherwise a rather irrelevant factoid. The last thing I want is having my commas and periods hanging outside the paragraph.

      I'm with a number of other posters on the point that any form of automated kerning for web content or other on-screen content is just about irrelevant. We can read the screen, often with near-100% certainty, and communication is the result. Looks like we may already have it right.

      In the readability department, there are much more important matters:

      • A visibly clear difference between lowercase ‘l’, uppercase ‘i’ and the number ‘1’ (some of you may have more trouble than others to understand this, depending on your browsers font... which is exactly the point)
      • A visibly clear difference between uppercase ‘O’ and number ‘0’. (I prefer bitmapped fonts where a dot appears inside a zero; it's how I hand-write them, and IMHO it should be mandated)
      • Whether ClearType or TrueType or OpenType or PostScript-font or whatever... just keep the text readable with or without anti-aliasing at smaller sizes on-screen. (or just make it “greek” when it's small enough—past the point of being legible anyway)
      • Why does it seem that only Firefox lets me set a Minimum Font Size? Brilliant!
      • Unfortunately, pages that are affected by that setting often have text spilling from the layout.
      • It's never easy to tell the difference between ‘rn’ and ‘m’ (except in monospace)
      • I've found a bunch of domains that sound real funny as “dot-corn” sites. (next round of TLDs, anyone?)

      FYI, my screen font is the highly underrated Trebuchet MS. (also the namesake of my favorite unit in AoE2) It addresses most of the concerns I put in the list above and is entirely readable down to 6pt (8px) size... er- with ClearType enabled, that is. ;)

      --
      This post © Copyrite Duggeek, all rights reversed.
    43. Re:Volumes not areas? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Even ancient word processing software could do kerning. (Frex, WordPerfect 5.1 and possibly before that.) But kerning tends to be proprietary to the *printer driver*, and can't be implemented if the actual file is plain text and the medium is not a printer. Good example -- my laser printer can print kerned text; my old inkjet could not, it came out the same as unkerned text.

      I suppose kerning could be handled for the web *in the browser*, but I suspect would be very slow on most machines; however, that's probably the most reliable route, since it would behave the same with ALL text (and remember that what's rendered in the browser starts life mostly as plain text).

      If it were done in the HTML (pretending for the moment that HTML could do kerning) each letter would have to be coded as if it were an image to be placed relative to those around it, and the browser would have to grok "text placement". Imagine how much larger an average webpage would become, or if done with something more "economical" like CSS, all the bazillion ways it could go worng due to variances in implementation!

      It's an interesting problem, regardless.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    44. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      with utmost repsect, may i point out that i'm not so sure that your example shows quiet what you think it does... please accept this following example, which may illustrate your point somewhat more clearly.

      if your system / current font is not rendering with kerning, then then following lines will have equal lengths:

      AAAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVVV
      AVAVAVAVAVAVAVAVAVAV

      best wishes,

    45. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would seem to me that the printing industry in fact utilizes computers to create printed material following said law.

    46. Re:Volumes not areas? by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      Even ancient word processing software could do kerning. (Frex, WordPerfect 5.1 and possibly before that.) But kerning tends to be proprietary to the *printer driver*, and can't be implemented if the actual file is plain text and the medium is not a printer. Good example -- my laser printer can print kerned text; my old inkjet could not, it came out the same as unkerned text.

      There is nothing propietary about doing kerning! The application just needs to correctly put the characters in the page. A TeX file will print kerned on even a dot-matrix printer (assuming you have a dot-matrix printer with a dpi good enough for you to notice, of course)

      If it were done in the HTML (pretending for the moment that HTML could do kerning) each letter would have to be coded as if it were an image to be placed relative to those around it, and the browser would have to grok "text placement". Imagine how much larger an average webpage would become, or if done with something more "economical" like CSS, all the bazillion ways it could go worng due to variances in implementation!

      Modern graphical browsers already grok text placement.

    47. Re:Volumes not areas? by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      Thank you. That is a much better example.

    48. Re:Volumes not areas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With a bit of logic, the first example shows exactly what the original poster "thinks it does." Just think about it. The only reason the first example wouldn't work would be if A or V was wider than the other... which isn't the case with every font I have ever seen.

  2. Web Volumes??? by Slugster · · Score: 2, Informative

    Well there IS pdf's, if you wanna be that picky......
    ~

    1. Re:Web Volumes??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There ARE PDFs.

      Yes, I want to be picky.

  3. The only thing I noticed about Wired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  4. Hinting distorts kerning by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    True, PDF documents have kerning in them, but the hinting used to display glyphs in PDF documents on a 70 to 120 DPI screen without blurring the crap out of the glyphs distorts the spacing balance.

  5. Not all that important by realmolo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Having all the typefaces look *exactly* right is one of those things that only printers really care about. Don't get me wrong, it's worth the trouble, for the *printed page*.

    But on the web? I don't think anyone would really notice or care that much. Plus, it'd be hard to achieve, since you can't rely on all machines rendering fonts at the same resolution, and you can't rely on fonts actually being present on all machines, and you can't rely on all the *versions* of a typeface actually being the same across different platforms. None of this is news. The web was designed to sort-of deal with these problems. Or at least, ignore them.
    Someday, when we're all running ultra-high-res displays, and someone releases a shitload of completey free (as in beer and freedom), high-quality fonts (I think this is the biggest issue, personally), then we'll all see the same nice fonts on our computers.

    1. Re:Not all that important by Itninja · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the point of the article wasn't about how important the quality of typefaces and fonts are, but some reasoning behind why some people get more fatigued than others reading text from a computer screen.

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    2. Re:Not all that important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > But on the web? I don't think anyone would really notice or care that much.

      The publishers care. People notice good typography even when they can't quantify it, and they're more likely to come back to the site that "just looks good".

      Of course content is still king: the New York Times got through most of the 20th century with typography from the last one -- a veritable typeface soup -- but no one was about to switch to the Post over it.

    3. Re:Not all that important by Purity+Of+Essence · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Having all the typefaces look *exactly* right is one of those things that only printers really care about. Don't get me wrong, it's worth the trouble, for the *printed page*.


      Look at the Slashdot banner at the top of the page. What do you see? Kerning. And if it wasn't kerned, it would look like crap. All designers care about kerning, not just those in the print world.
      --
      +0 Meh
    4. Re:Not all that important by QuantumG · · Score: 1, Troll

      I just put it down to them being cry babies.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    5. Re:Not all that important by whit3 · · Score: 1

      While there aren't any ligatures, my screen is rendered with display
      PostScript, and has all the same kerning and font capability of most print
      software. I enjoy the capability of selecting fonts and sizes on-screen,
      and wouldn't want those decisions made by others. As my vision
      ages, I'm making the fonts bigger. None of your business HOW big.

      Metafont/TeX/LaTeX has kerning and ligatures and makes pretty good print.

      Display PostScript is the imaging model for Macintosh OS X unless you
      choose to fire up Xwindows.

    6. Re:Not all that important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having all the typefaces look *exactly* right is one of those things that only printers really care about. Don't get me wrong, it's worth the trouble, for the *printed page*.


      Look at the Slashdot banner at the top of the page. What do you see? Kerning. And if it wasn't kerned, it would look like crap. All designers care about kerning, not just those in the print world. Not really proving much of a point with by using the slashdot logo of all things...
    7. Re:Not all that important by Swampwulf · · Score: 1

      Kearning or no, the Wired logo still makes my eyes bleed.

      --
      -On the internet, no one cares if you're a dog.-
    8. Re:Not all that important by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

      Look at the Slashdot banner at the top of the page. What do you see? Kerning. And if it wasn't kerned, it would look like crap.

      On the other hand, look at the Wired logo in the article, in which they brag about how it follows their law of readability. It looks like unreadable crap.

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    9. Re:Not all that important by samkass · · Score: 1

      While it's actually something akin to "Display PDF", your point is valid. It's pretty trippy turning on cursive Zapfino in an IM application and having it get all the ligatures right, including the ending y that flows under the preceeding word. You could even set a font with ligatures for web sites, eliminating the complaint posed here, but since most web sites these days specify an explicit font and depend on it for sizing, it would be frustrating.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    10. Re:Not all that important by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 1

      Right. Even if we could get the kerning right, I'd bet we would still retain more by reading from the printed page rather than from the computer screen. That's why books and newspapers will never go away.

      Really, other than on blogs and news sites, if you are presenting on the web you should write for the web. That means writing something clear and coherent and then paring it down as far as you can. News sites and blogs should just use a good serif font on the web and move on. If someone really wants to nitpick, let them get the hard copy.

      --
      blah blah blah
    11. Re:Not all that important by Chief+Camel+Breeder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, and in that context the bit in the GP post about high-res displays is relevant. We can't fairly compare print and screen readability until the screen can display text with about 300 pixels per inch and with an entire page on display at once.

      The other advantage in print is the lack of distractions. The page isn't cluttered with navigation aids.

    12. Re:Not all that important by MozillaMike · · Score: 0

      And maybe more people would adopt the electronic news systems as oposed to printed ones. With that sort of a change, there is less wasted paper. Though I don't think that fonts are a majority of the problem. Fonts could be adding to the problem, but the fact that screens omit light, as oposed to paper that reflects light to your eyes. In other words, the screens are the main reason for eye fatigue, not the fonts. Very interesting to see what will come up about this in the future.

      --
      GCS/MU d- s: a--- C++ W+++ w+ M-- PS--- PE++ t+ R+ tv b+ DI++ G e- h! !y
    13. Re:Not all that important by Aqua+OS+X · · Score: 1

      Bah. This is an important thing. Moreover, it's constantly ignored because these conversations are commonly dictated by too many know-it-alls with little knowledge about typography.

      Quite frankly, the minor details of typography are not something people are -aware- of, but that does not mean proper typography doesn't significant effect readability, usability, comprehension, information architecture, and even the development process.

      This is a problem that could be solved if people simply acknowledged that it was an important problem that needed to be solved.

      --
      "Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
  6. A Magazine is better... by ShaggyBOFH · · Score: 2, Funny
    ...because the web is just too big to fit in my bathroom.

    --
    --- Just say no to negativity.
    1. Re:A Magazine is better... by wolrahnaes · · Score: 1

      The IEEE 802.11 working group would like to have a word with you.

      --
      I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
    2. Re:A Magazine is better... by Overkill+Nbuta · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...because the web is just too big to fit in my bathroom.

      You already got the tubes in there. How much work can it be?
  7. I'm not so sure... by anss123 · · Score: 1

    So they basically put some letters closer together when possible. Personally I've noted that Magazines and Papers put a good bit of thought into layout, but I've never found them easier to read. On the contrary, screen fonts are bigger and are easier on the eyes than letters on glossy paper.

    The most readable text I've seen is what is output from a common Laser printer, and I do not believe they use 'kerning' fonts.

    1. Re:I'm not so sure... by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 5, Funny

      Personally I've noted that Magazines and Papers put a good bit of thought into layout, but I've never found them easier to read.

      Yeah, I agree, though I think that has more to do with their dumbed-down slang phrasings than the typography.

      8-year-old: "6 divided by 3 is 2."

      Time magazine: "Okay, take the number six. You're all familiar with it, yes? It's a half-dozen. Now, imagine it divvied up into little chunklets -- three, specifically -- and each chunklet has the same number that math professor Gregory Beckens at Overinflated Ego University calls a 'quotient'. The so-called 'quotient' in this case? Dos."

    2. Re:I'm not so sure... by Strilanc · · Score: 1

      and then they screw it up with those big bold quotes ten times the size of
      | IT'S RETARDED - Strilanc. | the rest of the text, and all it does is state
      a sentence you'll see later. It's retarded.

    3. Re:I'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course they do. Many if not most true type fonts have at least some kerning pairs for the most obvious cases like AW and AV for example.

    4. Re:I'm not so sure... by camperdave · · Score: 1

      If I'm being paid by the word, I know which version I'm submitting.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  8. My biggest CSS gripe by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 1

    Is the lack of good font control. Lack of kerning is one thing. Another is you can't have font sizes for each individual fallback font - fonts can vary in size so much that you have to write for the most common font or risk throwing the design for everyone else.

    1. Re:My biggest CSS gripe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How about just write the damn page so it works with the font size a user wants.

    2. Re:My biggest CSS gripe by interiot · · Score: 1

      So work in TeX or PDF or PS, or any of the other formats that are designed to be used with a single specific font and a specific page size, that can be tweaked endlessly.

    3. Re:My biggest CSS gripe by afidel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think you miss the point of this HTML thing. It's a markup language, not a display language. For that we have PDF and Display Postscript. I don't want that much font controll in the language because your exacting layout isn't going to work on my 320*240 (or smaller) portable display anyways.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    4. Re:My biggest CSS gripe by DuckWizard · · Score: 1

      font-size-adjust does this to some degree (the fallback font sizes). You specify the x-height/em-width ratio of the font you are using for your layout, and the user-agent will (or should) scale the resulting font by the ratio of the font-size-adjust property to its x/em ratio. Theoretically, this will help you ensure that the text is at least legible if a fallback font is used (although you don't have fine control over the font size).

    5. Re:My biggest CSS gripe by cloudmaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you miss the point of this CSS thing. It's a style defining syntax, not a markup language. It exists to put a Style - you know, the "middle S" - on top of a generic markup language. Your tiny device should a) treat styles in a way appropriate for its capabilities, or b) suck it.

      Now, if people would just use HTML as intended, and use CSS as intended, my tiny little devices can ignore the web browser CSS and render the HTML in a way appropriate for their screens. Some people will know aobut tiny little devices, and will design CSS to help make things readable on tiny little devices, because they care about such things. I'll turn that crap off, because I think web designers with a print graphics background should not be allowed near my computer. And we'll all be happy, because separating content from presentation is a good thing.

    6. Re:My biggest CSS gripe by suv4x4 · · Score: 1

      Is the lack of good font control. Lack of kerning is one thing.

      Kerning is a domain of the font definition, not CSS. Don't be stupid: would you really supply endless number of kenring pairs in your CSS for every page you do, if CSS had that?

      Do you have any idea how much time it takes to create a properly kerned font? More time than it might take you to do your site.

      The whole article on Wired is pointless, and wrong. Most new fonts shipped today, and the default fonts shipped with Mac and Windows, have and make use of, kerning information.

      I'm happy, however, that Wired discovered something that's mainstream on computers for quite some years now.

    7. Re:My biggest CSS gripe by jsoderba · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The point of the article is that current fonts don't have enough kerning, not thar there is none at all.

  9. Buy the magazine to see the kerning in action! by Headcase88 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To see and appreciate the Law in action beyond our logo, you'll need to pick up a copy of the magazine.
    Well I guess that would be more profitable than just offering a .gif sample.
    --
    "When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
  10. Isn't it OS' responsibility? by saikou · · Score: 1

    I always thought that kerning of installed (and injected) fonts is pretty much OS responsibility. So if you have kerning enabled (see, for example, Typography.Kerning in .NET, as we're talking mostly about Windows) adjustments of the font will be done automatically. So I guess if you force browser to download font via CSS2 that has kerning information it should "just work".

    Alas, I always thought that forcing downloading of custom font is a bad idea (jut like forcing user to use some fixed font size) as not everyone may be a big fan of new fancy font.
    Oh well.

    1. Re:Isn't it OS' responsibility? by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      This web page best viewed with TeX?
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    2. Re:Isn't it OS' responsibility? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The operating system (or various installed libraries) process the fonts and provide the kerning information, but it's up to the individual application (or its widget set) to actually use the kerning information in the font. I wrote a FreeType-based font renderer for OpenGL (since the existing ones didn't support FreeType 2, rendering to alpha textures like I wanted), and I had to deal with these issues when laying out characters from the font.

  11. Print vs Digital by Reason58 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Could this be why some people still prefer newspapers and magazines to the Web? Intrusive ads, popup windows, flash animations and audio come to mind as reasons. Also the simple fact that many people like the freedom of being able to actually hold and move around the thing they are looking at. Kerning adjustments seem pretty low on the list of reasons IMHO.
    1. Re:Print vs Digital by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      I personally think that people prefer to read some things in paper form because it isn't convenient to use a laptop in the toilet. Not trying to be funny, as most people DO read in the toilet, and it just isn't easy, or particularly sanitary to do so with a computer.

      Also, people read on planes, in lobbies, while waiting in line, and other places that a computer isn't as convenient. Either use a paper book, or a Gameboy.

      More important to me, paper is more intuitive for casual reading. Computers are better for research, search and find, copy and paste, and quick and dirty fact finding, but paper is still the most enjoyable way to read, particularly when I want to read simply because I just want to read. It's comfortable, familiar, and wonderfully analog.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    2. Re:Print vs Digital by Ambush+Commander · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Kerning adjustments seem pretty low on the list of reasons IMHO.

      You are partially correct. Kerning alone won't make print more attractive than web documents. However, kerning is only one part out of many things one can do to text (justification, hyphenation, smaller line-lengths, line-spacing, judicious use of emphasis, indentation, ligatures, etc.) to make it more readable, i.e. typography. The sum of all these adjustments, while not consciously visible to the reader, most definitely has an effect on the overall desirability of print media.

    3. Re:Print vs Digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I personally think that people prefer to read some things in paper form because it isn't convenient to use a laptop in the toilet. Not trying to be funny, as most people DO read in the toilet, and it just isn't easy, or particularly sanitary to do so with a computer.

      If you've got enough time to read a magazine or newspaper while on the toilet, you are in serious need of some fiber in your diet!

    4. Re:Print vs Digital by fossa · · Score: 1

      I think the biggie is vastly higher resolution. Typical screens are what, 72-100 ppi? It's simply tiring to keep scrolling about. Letter size paper or a larger newspaper fits more information and lets the reader scan about without much effort.

      Also, something about being able to easily add color seems to make everyone want to do it. Those thick, darkly colored bars of slashdot headings sharply contrast with the black-on-white text and in many cases activate the negative space between the bars.

    5. Re:Print vs Digital by JonathanR · · Score: 1

      Read? On the toilet? It's not the space between letters that counts, it's the space between other, er... geometric elements.

    6. Re:Print vs Digital by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      The sum of all these adjustments, while not consciously visible to the reader, most definitely has an effect on the overall desirability of print media.
      And on a related note, I really, really want to design a LaTeX template for eBooks, so someone can request a PDF version of a book, and that PDF would look great. You know, like real eBooks which have had typesetting performed on them do.

      While I understand the people who release pirated versions of books online (e.g. any eBook version of Harry Potter) care more about getting the release out and less about the beauty of the release, I can't believe there isn't a group out there wanting to release a "proper" of the Harry Potter books in better typesetting.

      Hell, I have the "unofficial" eBook versions of all six books (own the hardcopies as well), and I'm tempted to run the documents through some Python and then LaTeX just to make them better looking and more readable.
    7. Re:Print vs Digital by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      And on a related note, I really, really want to design a LaTeX template for eBooks, so someone can request a PDF version of a book, and that PDF would look great. You know, like real eBooks which have had typesetting performed on them do.
      Wow, I completely forgot to mention that I wanted this to be a feature on Project Gutenberg. That was the initial point of my post and I forgot to mention it :\
    8. Re:Print vs Digital by dajak · · Score: 1

      Mark up the books with XSL-FO, or some XML language that translates to it, and use Apache Cocoon or FOP or something like that to generate the XHTML for the web and the PDF version for download. Many websites already work like this. Even when you insist on taking a detour via LaTeX (for mathematical stuff, or diagrams, for instance) I would start with XSL-FO and transform with XSL. LaTeX cannot be properly validated.

    9. Re:Print vs Digital by Geminii · · Score: 1

      I switched to online news from newspapers precisely to _decrease_ the amount of ads I was subjected to. A properly configured browser, DNS lookup table and firewall will kill 99% of online ads, including popups, flash and audio. Browsing in text mode is also an interestingly useful and fast method, as is assorted Firefox/Greasemonkey script combinations for your favorite news sites, not to mention RSS. The best bit is that after a few visits, bookmarks, and scripts, I only get the news that's interesting. I'm not subjected to screeds on psuedo-celebrities or what happened in sport, I can give overcovered stories lesser priority, and I can have items like the roundup of local entertainment events sitting off to one side as an unobtrusive blob of pixels until I feel like seeing a movie or concert. I can get the full stories on interesting developments in science or geektoys, summaries of national politics which I can expand if I feel like it, and quick headlines for everything else. Try doing _that_ with a physical newspaper. Best of all, I don't have to fight to extract my screen from plastic clingwrap every morning, wring rain or sprinkler runoff out of its ends, spend five minutes trying to unroll it, and eventually have to settle for reading it while the edges are held down by heavy objects.

    10. Re:Print vs Digital by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      I think I'll stick with LaTeX.

      If the examples on Wikipedia of output generated using XSL-FO and Apache are anything to judge by, LaTeX is far superior. I noticed many instances where a "t" and "i" were not properly formed into a ligature, and I think there was no kerning! LaTeX, on the other hand, is the product of decades of work by a brilliant man dedicated to making this product the absolute greatest typesetting program it can be.

      LaTeX can also create HTML. The only thing is that LaTeX cannot be "validated," as you claim, but when I use MikTeX, it always tells me when I have an error. That's validation enough for me.

    11. Re:Print vs Digital by dajak · · Score: 1

      Cocoon can do kerning and ligatures, but it has to be switched on and the right fonts must be used. There are also alternatives, like XEP.

      I would use for instance TEI as source and XSL-FO for transforming to output formats if you manage a large online repository of generic text. LaTeX is very useful as an additional output format, but inconvenient as an input to your own transformations and validations. I have experience managing a body of legislation with Cocoon, and we use XSL for verifying constraints on dates, on citations, etc. The XML source also makes it easy to generate PDFs of excerpts of a document (for instance relevant articles in search results, or a specific chapter), or multi-version consolidations, or annotated versions, on the fly.

      I agree LaTeX is brilliant. I write papers and reports in it. But it doesn't work well for content management in my opinion.

  12. Since when was WIRED interested in readability? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The concept of WIRED magazine and its associated web site being interested in readability seems ludicrous.

    Consider their track record of using tiny type, garish color schemes, and layouts that I find difficult to characterize, making it nearly impossible for anyone with any of a number of (even slight) impairments to their eyesight (including especially presbyopia - the lack of accommodation that accompanies middle age) to read their publications comfortably - or even at all.

    I've often thought that this was done deliberately, to repell all but young readers, as part of targeting their circulation on the perceived avant-garde youth of gen-Y and beyond.

    Now they're modifying their logo for readability. ORLY? Is their target demographic aging enough that this is now a problem? Are readers deserting them due to headaches just as they graduate into serious spending money? Or are they just playing around with another art/layout fad?

    If they were really serious about readability I'd expect them to be modifying other aspects of their magazine and site layout. But TFA shows that is not happening. So I'll go with "fad".

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Since when was WIRED interested in readability? by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      I agree. While I haven't paid any attention to WIRED for a number of years, I remember that their magazine was harder to read than anything I'd seen before.

    2. Re:Since when was WIRED interested in readability? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      They've improved it considerably since then. Five years ago the typography and design were actively offensive. These days it's much more conservative. Still a bit edgy, and not always wonderful, but almost always readable.

      The content is pretty much the same as before: a lot of tech hype with a very low probability of ever seeing the light of day, but with a few reasonable articles.

    3. Re:Since when was WIRED interested in readability? by Generic+Guy · · Score: 1

      Now they're modifying their logo for readability. ORLY? Is their target demographic aging enough that this is now a problem? Are readers deserting them due to headaches just as they graduate into serious spending money?

      I get the print version, and for a few years WIRED actually improved the readability of their magazine quite a bit. I'm surprised they're now promoting this "Law of Optical Volumes" crap when they've recently gone ahead and trashed the readability of the rest of the magazine with those new horrific fonts, often many mixed on the same page for short articles. I'm letting my subscription lapse this year because it gives me headaches trying to read WIRED these days.

      --
      { - Generic Guy - }
    4. Re:Since when was WIRED interested in readability? by hedleyroos · · Score: 1

      I hear you.

      I still love Wired for its content, but their new layout sucks. It seems as though there are just too many fonts on a single page. This is a fad I've noticed on many websites. Hopefully this passes real soon.

    5. Re:Since when was WIRED interested in readability? by Pope · · Score: 1

      I suggest you track down some old issues of David Carson's "Ray Gun" magazine. Now THAT was all about style over substance, taken to such an extreme that I wondered why they bothered even trying to write articles when their legibility was hovering close to nil at points.

      You have to wonder at the ego of a man who tries to prove that the world is at "the end of print" by starting a magazine. Oh well, the pictures were often pretty, I guess that might count for something.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    6. Re:Since when was WIRED interested in readability? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Wired isn't and never has been interested in *readability*. They are interested in attracting eyeballs, and if spouting about how "readable" they are does it, that's what they'll do. (It worked, didn't it? :)

      Magazines, online or otherwise, are seldom actually interested in their own content. Their true interest lies in attracting advertising dollars, and their only interest in their audience is what demographics that audience can present to potential advertisers.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    7. Re:Since when was WIRED interested in readability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember being in my twenties, standing in the supermarket trying to read an article by tilting the page back and forth. Why? Because the damned thing was printed in silver ink on a bright yellow page. I could tell that there was something written there because I could see the different reflectivity (or refractive index or something) of the paper gloss vs. the ink. I suspect that you were supposed to read it under blacklight or something.

  13. no i didn't notice by hurfy · · Score: 1

    hehe

    The new one is just the opposite of the old one, very interesting. I don't really see how this umm law applies more to one than the other tho.

    I do see what they are saying tho. A good sample is the button below for Plain Old Text. In that font it looks like the sans-serif T wants to get away altho in this font the seriffed T looks fine cause of a extra dot.

    1. Re:no i didn't notice by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      San Serif "Text"
      Serif "Text"
      I liked your example, but you should have previewed.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  14. Not all that important-Digital. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "Someday, when we're all running ultra-high-res displays, and someone releases a shitload of completey free (as in beer and freedom), high-quality fonts (I think this is the biggest issue, personally), then we'll all see the same nice fonts on our computers."

    Welcome to slashdot were doing anything that goes on the internet isn't really "work".

    "Traditional fonts usually included several hundred kerning pairs. Hoefler & Frere-Jones' fonts are super-fussy - they can include 10,000 pairs to get every combo of letters exactly right. "

    That's work, and that's only a small part of what's known as typography.

    1. Re:Not all that important-Digital. by hazem · · Score: 1

      "Traditional fonts usually included several hundred kerning pairs. Hoefler & Frere-Jones' fonts are super-fussy - they can include 10,000 pairs to get every combo of letters exactly right. "

      That's work, and that's only a small part of what's known as typography.


      Consider this:

      "Linux operating systems usually include several hundred additional programs. The Slackware is particularly fussy - as it an include more than 10,000 different programs just to get every combo of installations correct"

      That's work, and it's only a small part of what's known as operating system construction.

      I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but building high-quality fonts is EXACTLY the kind of thing that the open source movement should be able to handle well. I know a couple typographers (well, 1 now.. one committed suicide) and they're both computer geeks too. I'm sure there have to be more than a handful of them that would be interested in contributing to the commons that way.

      The instructions and standards would be fairly easy to lay out and a small handful of people could handle quality control of the finished product.

      I say all this without looking to see if there is an open source font project...

    2. Re:Not all that important-Digital. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's not purely a matter of numbers. It's a matter of skill and experience (read scarcity of talent). And yes, if one truely wants quality fonts, it takes lots of work (especially a "shitload"). Read up on the history of some of the more popular fonts. While some company or organization may donate some fonts, that in no way mitigates my argument. And yes it does bother me (hence my reply) that slashdot has little to no understanding of how much work goes into anything digital. You're not going to hear a post were someone says "a shitload of houses are suddenly going to appear" because most people understand physical goods. They don't understand digital, and it shows. e.g. piracy.

    3. Re:Not all that important-Digital. by hazem · · Score: 1

      I'm definitely not saying it would be easy. But this is exactly the kind of thing that could be done with the OSS model. I'm guessing there are more than a few people who know how to build a font who might be interested in helping teach others how to do this work and help ensure the quality. A talented project leader could help tie it all together.

      Easy? No. Hard work? Yes. But that's true of any substantial project.

      With your example of houses, consider projects like Habitat for Humanity. Here you have many volunteers working on building a house. Most of them are unskilled laborers. A few are experts in different aspects of house building. Fewer yet are actually architects and project planners. But with the right combination of workers willing to learn and leaders able to teach and lead, you could very well end up with some interesting, useful, and quality results.

      As for fonts, I personally have some hobby experience and know that it's no easy task. I tried to develop an Arabic true-type font for an Arabic program I once wrote. It was not easy (Fontographer was not the easiest to use) and the results weren't terrific.

  15. print density by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Current screens of any usable size still have about 1/3 to 1/2 the dot density of a printed page. Until we can get screens up above 300dpi, print will continue to win. And that's not even mentioning things like kerning and manually adjusting word spacing--an area that takes a lot of experience and time to do well.

  16. Kerning is not an exact science by Temeraire · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have actually written software to kern text (for the sign-making industry) and can testify that kerning is not an exact science. Yes, one needs to even up the areas of white space between letter, but then one needs to bias the calculations in favour of the tops of the letters. And then make some allowance for any white space inside the letters, and .... and .... and ..... Spacing that is correct for 12-point type on paper would be quite wrong for a huge 3D sign on the side of a building, and so on.
          For perfection, there is no substitute for the human eye. The algorithms used by our brains to unscramble text are very complex.

    1. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by rossz · · Score: 1

      A long time a go I worked for a company that made fonts. From my experience, trying to kern mathematically just didn't work. The only way you can properly create kerning is to have a table for every possible character combination (at that time, 256x256 characters, minus the 32 control characters) with the kerning value. You needed a table for each font, face, and size. Thus, Times Roman 10pt Normal was entirely different from Times Roman 12pt Bold. Kerning mixed fonts was not even considered. For printed text (as opposed to giant building signs), a short int (single byte, signed) per character pair was sufficient since -127 to +127 was way overkill. However, that's a 64k table for each and every font. At the time, that was a big deal. An alternative system was to assume zero kerning as the default, but have a table for the exceptions, e.g. 'v' and 'o' (being a common pair needing negative kerning).

      Even if you produced a perfectly good kerning system, it was tossed out the window when someone printed "fully justified".

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    2. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by alexhs · · Score: 1

      Does anyone know how it works for (La)TeX ? Do they also use tables, or is there some generic algorithm ?

      --
      I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    3. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " For perfection, there is no substitute for the human eye."

      ever try to put up a 100 foot long, 12 foot high cinder block wall using just your eye?

      No for perfaction there are measureing tools.They are a hell of a lot better then anyones eye.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you're referring to METAFONT-style fonts, then there is some supplementary information you can encode in the font file to indicate kerning between specific pairs, and also some moderately flexible ligature support. It's nowhere near as powerful as what you can do with Opentype, but suffices for reasonable quality when setting Roman alphabet languages. It can also be adapted, if you try hard enough, to support more complicated scripts like Devanagari. The nastiest limitations for that sort of work usually involved the number 256, IIRC.

      The TeX engine itself does some spacing work as well, but more in the areas of punctuation and whitespace for justification than inter-letter spacing. (This is why you have to be careful when using a . character as something other than a full stop, if you want typographically correct results.) If you want something interesting built on top of TeX, look up Han The Thanh's thesis on microtypography and have a play with PDF(La)TeX.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    5. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      You should be able to visually roll a ball of a consistent diameter between the rightmost edge of the left character and the leftmost edge of the right character. Does that make sense?

    6. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by rumblin'rabbit · · Score: 2, Funny

      ever try to put up a 100 foot long, 12 foot high cinder block wall using just your eye?
      I'm trying to imagine that. You would need strong eyes, I think.

      But I take your point. Might I also suggest that using an automatic spell checker is better than trying to compose on the fly.
    7. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by gatzke · · Score: 1


      Doesn't LaTeX do kerning? Couldn't it make big signs as well?

    8. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by jd · · Score: 1
      Is this the pdf(la)tex you mean?

      I do wish the LaTeX group could pull up their socks. Version 3 is being "worked on" (read: the mailing list occasionally has sparks of life), but the need for an underlying engine that does all of this properly seems clear to me.

      Adding layers on top of LaTeX only goes so far, if the underlying engine has flaws. If TeX can't do kerning adequately any more, then fixes above it will simply be implementation-dependent - which is largely what happened when LaTex 2 broke down and splintered into a billion variants. LaTeX 2e was a hack to glue the splinters back on.

      To be honest, if TeX could be brought up to speed on typesetting needs and font requirements, I think a lot of people would consider taking it up again. Modern wordprocessors suck at true DTP, are generally memory hogs, and demand significant horsepower from the machine to work at a decent speed. Demands on what can be produced have gone up, yes. Demands on flexibility and capability have gone up, yes. Demands on clippy have most definitely gone down.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    9. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Knetzar · · Score: 1

      I can see that for some examples (NE) but I have no idea how it would work with DC

    10. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      It's a typesetting/manual Letraset layout-kind of thing (art-ish) that most people probably don't bother noticing, and I'm not a professional text layout person. For computer screen display it's not worth the effort for a variety of reasons, mostly technological.

      FWIW (probably not much), for laying-out structures like pumps, tanks, etc. in a refinery, I use the same rule: if a 30" diameter circle can pass by/through adjacent equipment, the equipment is accessible from all sides by a large maintenance guy wearing a toolbelt.

      I've actually used this rule-of-thumb to lay out my smallish living space and it works OK. The only problem I've noticed as I get older is that I'd probably prefer a more direct path to the bathroom (possibly with runway-type, subtle LED lighting) and wider circle tolerances.

    11. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by zsau · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you want OpenType goodness in LaTeX, use XeTeX. Apparently it's in Debian/Sid[*] now that Etch has been released, via TeXLive 2007; I've been using it manually compiled against TeXLive 2005 for some time now. It has far and away the best OpenType font support I've seen on anything running on GNU/Linux; it's somewhat at the level of Mac OS X's stuff (except it uses backslashes instead of mice and OpenType instead of AAT or ATSUI or whatever Apple calls their font format).

      [*]: (Of course, you can run it on other operating systems; it's developed for Mac OS X so you can get binaries from the developer, and other distros may or may not include TeXLive 2007 now that teTeX is being phased out.)

      Of course, if you use XeTeX it means you don't get pdfTeX's microtypography thing. So we come back full circle: I want something that does both! (Apparently the working version of pdfTeX, called luaTeX, is meant to add OpenType font support to pdfTeX (eventually), but because it'll be done in a completely different way from XeTeX, whether special font features will be supported automatically is a different matter.)

      Oh, also, you're getting it backwards. LaTeX sits on top of XeTeX and pdfTeX, not the other way around. XeTeX and pdfTeX can do wonderous things with or without LaTeX as plain (pdf|Xe)TeX or (pdf|Xe)ConTeXt. LaTeX needs an update so that modern packages can do modern things.

      Gosh! Confusing.

      --
      Look out!
    12. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by bronney · · Score: 1

      For perfection, there is no substitute for the human eye.

      Exactly man. Else my job is just select the text, type a -50 in the kerning in illustrator and I can go home. Different fonts requires different treatment. Even using the word "require" is fishy.

    13. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid I've long since given up on the LaTeX3 effort. There doesn't seem to be any driving force, and progress has been tending to zero for many years.

      I think the problem is that while the TeX family of tools provided high quality typesetting that was basically a cut above the rest when they were written, that was several decades ago. Today we have Opentype font technology starting to enter mainstream applications, and at least the high-end DTP programs take advantage of that and are starting to offer serious typography in terms of things like H&J. Things like automatic ligatures and using the right dash are nice to have, but hardly earth-shattering, and everyone else has them now, too. That rules out typography as a major advantage for TeX.

      The second big advantage it has always had is typesetting mathematics. Again, it seems a matter of time before the big boys can play that game too. As always, the limitation here is mostly that there are (and probably always will be) few high-quality fonts available that are suitable for setting mathematics.

      The third advantage of TeX, particularly the LaTeX family, and perhaps the most relevant today, is the support for long documents. Things like cross-references and bibliographies actually work and provide enough functionality to get useful results, albeit only if you jump through the right hoops to set them up. The same cannot be said of any word processor I have used, and many DTP packages are lacking in this area, but this seems to be improving (at least in DTP land).

      The fourth and final traditional advantage of TeX is extensibility. However, in a world that has scripting languages and that understands modularity and plug-in architectures, the idea of writing document classes and extension packages using the obscure and awkward TeX primitives looks its age. The LaTeX community in particular has done a remarkable job of maintaining spaghetti packages and adding compatibility features to get this package to work with that one, but it's still spaghetti. Compare and contrast with a more modern application designed with that kind of simple core and easy extensibility in mind, such as Firefox.

      And of course, TeX and its derivatives have always had some major disadvantages. It is a curious irony that TeX had the best paragraph justification algorithm in town — something that even now is only being equalled in a few high-end DTP programs — yet one of the worst approaches to setting pages ever conceived. Even today's low-end DTP software blows away the most advanced page-setting algorithms in any TeX derivative. (There are, after all, some advantages to having computers that measure RAM in GB not KB.)

      I think it is about time we consigned TeX to a place of honour in the history books. Now if only someone would write a decent DTP package that could cope with long documents and setting mathematics to a high standard...

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    14. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Inda · · Score: 1

      "ever try to put up a 100 foot long, 12 foot high cinder block wall using just your eye?"

      Well, I used to build models to an accuracy of 0.04mm and we had a saying in the workshop: "Your eyes are the straightest tool in the shop" and that we true 99% of the time.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    15. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I think it's a skill that goes along with being naturally good at space relations (which in my observation tends to go along with a good sense of direction and of where you are in realspace).

      Frex, I never get lost, I have good space relations, and can also eyeball something and be reasonably accurate. In meatspace, that means I can pack stuff tightly without measuring, get a 2x4 of the desired length from the scrap pile on the first try, pick a loose nut that will fit the random bolt w/o having to check size, etc. On a computer screen, I can crop two files to the same size by eyeball and not be more than one or two pixels off.

      Coversely, I know several people with an abysmal sense of direction and location, and the other trait they all share is that they have absolutely no idea "how big" anything is, let alone whether it's aligned as desired or will fit into XX space. They're the epitome of "I cut it three times, and it's STILL too short!"

      Occurs to me to wonder if this trait is what really separates engineers, designers, and people who successfully work with their hands, from other types of skills and professions.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    16. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Reziac · · Score: 1

      [laughing] Your "roll a ball between the letters" explanation not only makes sense, it took me from "I get it" to "Oh, now I *understand* it". Nice.

      Good explanation from an engineering/layout POV, too. Very practical.

      But what was so funny was applying it to the route to the bathroom... yeah, I grok that -- as I get older, I too have less and less tolerance for indirect routes, I just want point A to be adjacent to point B, with no side trips to 72 other points between! But I'm fortunate in that I don't need wider tolerances. ;)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    17. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Well, the LaTeX3 folks did take time out to finish documenting LaTeX2e (the 2nd edition of _The LaTeX Companion_ is _excellent_).

      There aren't that many tools competing w/ TeX in the layout field:

      ANT - ant is not text --- http://ant.berlios.de/ --- or at least that's where it was. Site's not responding now, hopefully temporary. Needs the ability to place a .pdf as a graphic, then I could start trying it out in some real-world cases

      LOUT - http://lout.sourceforge.net/ --- I can never get past the really rough-looking example files

      InDesign --- while it's getting better, it's still got a long way to go.

      Quark --- the less said the better.

      SoftMagic's MLayout --- www.softmagic.com - needs better H&J, but one of the more interesting efforts.

      The big issue w/ the graphical tools is that they're limited by available labour, which can be an issue for jobs which can't be divided up for parallel work at multiple stations and their featuresets --- multiple-line run-in heads are _not_ easily automated in InDesign so have to be handled on an individual basis, parts of index entries or portions of section marks in a running head can't be tagged w/ character styles &c.

      And of course there are TeX successors, and a continuing improvement in related tools --- LyX, http://www.lyx.org/ is one of the most innovative of these.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    18. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm not familiar with all of the tools you mentioned there, but with something I am a little familiar with — InDesign — the overall power and convenience is now well ahead of LateX IME. As you say, there are some gaps. There are also some things it's much better at. But unless I really need TeX-style equations, I'd rather use a tool like InDesign for most things these days.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    19. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Convenience I'll grant, for smaller publications which fit w/in ID's featureset, power, well, my first composition job out of college was a 2,200 pg. directory, and a big part of what I do now is phone books and government looseleaf publications or specialty journals which have formatting requirements (run-in heads, complex running heads, indexes w/ multiple character styles) which ID simply doesn't handle.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    20. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I'd guess your requirements are beyond any of the typical DTP packages today, and I know there are some pretty major limitations on what InDesign can do yet in this area so far. Personally, the idea of trying to produce that sort of document using (La)TeX fills me with horror, but maybe your particular requirements don't hit any of the areas where the TeX family are completely screwed up (use of any sort of colour or floating figures, for example).

      I suspect we can all agree that no-one has yet produced typesetting/DTP software with the kind of power and flexibility we'd like, but also the ease of use and efficiency. :-(

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    21. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Colour is easy. Either use C or M or Y and K (trivial) or use specific colours and post-process w/ PitStop to force given spot colour(s). Look at Sandefur:

      http://www.atlis.com/services/composition/samples/ TeX%20Sample%20Pages/

      as an example. ConTeXt allows one to do arbitrary named spot colours though of course, it doesn't include any licensed colour libraries:

      http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Colors

      One of these days I'm going to look into making use of its technique for this in LaTeX.

      Placed graphics usually ``just work'' and of course, one can handle things programmatically --- although the Sandefur example above doesn't show it, there were two different ways graphics could be placed, dependent on the horizontal size, naturally there was only one macro to place a graphic, it measured the graphic and placed it appropriately. Granted when floats don't fall out properly there's a bit of wrestling involved, but at least in LaTeX everything re-flows and all one's references, ToC, index &c. update automagically.

      Doing this sort of thing in InDesign and the like fills me with absolute boredom and tedium. Far better to solve things in a macro once and for all.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    22. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Colour is easy.

      In theory, yes it is. Unfortunately, in practice it doesn't work, at least in the LaTeX family. I've seen plenty of cases where a page break being emitted at an unfortunate point resulted in the first text at the top of the following page incorrectly picking up a colour used somewhere else in the vicinity, for example. The unpredictable nature of page breaks in the LaTeX model seems to make this unavoidable; the 'net is full of people with the same problem, but I never found a reliable solution.

      Placed graphics usually ``just work'' and of course, one can handle things programmatically

      Sure, but again they only “just work” if the behaviour you want fits into the very limited categories offered by LaTeX. I have lost track of the number of friends I've helped to hack a LaTeX source file for a paper or thesis because it was doing outright stupid things with float placement. If you're intimately familiar with all the rules used to determine here-placement and the various tolerances you can configure for the whitespace areas around a float with the different placement options, you might be able to get good results first time most of the time, but it's far too much like hard work.

      You're right that programmatic handling is highly desirable for a lot of things when you are, effectively, building a document template into which you can flow content. This possibility is obviously one of the big strengths of the TeX-based systems. But it should always be easy to override those rules when the results of following them dogmatically are undesirable, and this is difficult to almost impossible for a typical LaTeX project. And speaking as a professional software developer, the prospect of trying to write new logic using the TeX programming primitives is enough to dampen my will to live...

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    23. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      pdftex now has a colour stack (see v1.40 features), so one can push on a new colour to process a running head for example, then pop back to what was being used.

      Take a look at some of the othe examples in that ftp directory --- one of my co-workers at ATLIS regularly (re)wrote output routines at need. I'm still wrapping my mind around source2e.pdf, and while I hope latex3 is out before I'm done, I'm sure I'll continue to learn enough to churn out pages profitably.

      As I alluded to before, InDesign and its ilk are limited by available man-hours and workstations/licenses and featureset --- the only limits to (La)TeX are processing power and human ingenuity and I've yet to plumb the latter.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    24. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, you'd said:
      >If you're intimately familiar with all the rules used to determine
      >here-placement and the various tolerances you can configure
      >for the whitespace areas around a float with the different
      >placement options, you might be able to get good results
      >first time most of the time, but it's far too much like hard work.

      And placing graphics and dragging them into place in Quark or InDesign isn't?

      William
      (who has worked on projects where the graphics would take up multiple CDs or a DVD)

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    25. Re:Kerning is not an exact science by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Just because I claim one thing is far too much like hard work, please don't think I'm implying the other isn't. :-)

      It's definitely an advantage to have some sort of worthwhile programming/macro facilities when you're building a document template, but it's also useful to be able to override such things and tweak manually when the situation warrants it. The problem today is that with the TeX family, the programming is there (albeit using obscure black magic known only to about three witch doctors in the world) but overriding it when it doesn't give a good result is a royal PITA. The typical DTP approach is at the opposite extreme: you can position everything by hand if you want to... and if you don't want to, that's tough, because you're probably going to have to anyway.

      I do a fair amount of document production, formal technical things at work, publicity for local clubs, that sort of thing, but nothing really on the scale you're talking about as a professional. I know I've found it frustrating to be torn between these two ways of getting results — made worse by the fact that once you've committed to one, it's very hard to change to the other without starting from scratch — so I certainly sympathise with those of you who have to deal with this on an "industrial" scale!

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  17. TiReD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The very notion of Wired magazine talking about the readability of fonts is, in itself, hilarious and full of irony.

  18. Web Site Readability by hattig · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Unfortunately the WIRED headline "underwire" doesn't obey those rules.

    I'm generally unhappy with kerning on websites, unless they use certain fonts (sorry, I've never cared enough to look them up, although oddly enough they were serif fonts whereas I like sans-serif on websites).

    The biggest issue for readability was:

    - not too small
    - decent line spacing
    - NOT black on white. Dark grey on white, or black on pale grey
    - Nice margins to other content

    (aside, remember when people used to call them founts back in the 80s?)

    I've actually found the Wii Opera browser quite readable even on a 576i PAL TV (once zoomed in on the content anyway), and I attribute that to decent fonts and colours.

    1. Re:Web Site Readability by rs79 · · Score: 1

      "aside, remember when people used to call them founts back in the 80s?"

      I created comp.fonts in the 80s and I can't ever recall seeing that spelling.

      I do live under a rock though. So maybe it's just me.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    2. Re:Web Site Readability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect that, being in the UK, the word 'fonts' came from the US, and someone added a 'u' back into the equation, hence founts, said Frenchlike. I still have the magazines that reference 'founts' ...

    3. Re:Web Site Readability by kalidasa · · Score: 1

      Founts is more obviously etymologically related to foundry (a place that cuts fonts - from lead). That leads me to believe it is the original spelling. Fonts is a later spelling, though I believe it is the standard now on both sides of the Atlantic.

  19. I Care But by tknd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The main reason why it is much harder to produce a good looking font on a screen is due to the low dpi factor of screens. In print, you can get a much higher dpi and as such some fonts like Times look great. But on the screen they look like crap because the screen only has so much resolution. You can play a few tricks with current lcd technology and anti-aliasing but compare it to anything in print and there's no comparison.

    I certainly wouldn't mind higher resolution displays to display crisper fonts. And no, I'm not talking about running Windows at 3200x2400 so I can fit 4 1600x1200 browser windows on the screen, but rather so that my 10pt font looks much sharper. Then, maybe then I wouldn't have to read a blurry pdf on the screen or be forced to zoom in so the fonts render clearer.

    1. Re:I Care But by GunFodder · · Score: 3, Funny

      What kind of geek are you? I would think the biggest advantage of running 3200x2400 is the ability to fit at least 16 reasonably sized fixed-font xterms onscreen AT THE SAME TIME!

    2. Re:I Care But by EvanED · · Score: 1

      The main reason why it is much harder to produce a good looking font on a screen is due to the low dpi factor of screens. In print, you can get a much higher dpi and as such some fonts like Times look great. But on the screen they look like crap because the screen only has so much resolution. You can play a few tricks with current lcd technology and anti-aliasing but compare it to anything in print and there's no comparison.

      I also put the fact that the monitor is a pretty bright light source, instead of the reflected light of paper, as a big reason. (Actually, I think this is the bigger reason personally. I would say (1) light, (2) resolution, (3) text quality at a distant third. Though I do notice things like letter spacing and such very acutely when looking at the printed page, which is why I think LaTeX produces much better output than any word processor, so maybe if you improve (1) and (2) then I would start to notice (3).)

  20. The term you're looking for by michaelmalak · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Also the simple fact that many people like the freedom of being able to actually hold and move around the thing they are looking at.
    The term you're looking for is Picard's Syndrome.
    1. Re:The term you're looking for by WeblionX · · Score: 1

      Or it could be the lack of desire to stare at a lightbulb... Though there is "e-ink," but I'm not sure if it's come down in price. The last time I saw an ebook reader it was at least $150, which probably put people off as not everyone buys a ton of books.

      --
      (\(\
      (=_=) Bani!
      (")")
    2. Re:The term you're looking for by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Or it could be the lack of desire to stare at a lightbulb...

      This is one of my pet peeves in web design... the idea that black-on-white would be great for screens since it works so well with paper. There are much more comfortable color schemes for reading text on LCD/CRT, though none quite as good as paper.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    3. Re:The term you're looking for by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      afaict the dominance of black on white for screen text is a side effect of the whole wysiwyg craze and long predates the web.

      I much preffer light on dark but its very awkward to set up a modern system that way because so many app designers fix one color but not both, forcing a foreground without forcing a background or vice-versa really screws those with unusual color schemes.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  21. Um, no. by iabervon · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That law can't be right, because it would mean that the correct kerning wouldn't depend on the letters at all. Give each letter a nominal bounding box, and use this box for spacing. The "before" area is the area between the letter and the left edge; the "after" area is on the right. The area between two letters is the total of the first one's "after" area and the second one's "before" area. If you want the area to be a particular constant, adjust all the left edges so that all of the letters have half that constant as their "before" areas, and adjust the right edges so all the letters also have half that constant as their "after" areas. Obviously, then, all of the spacing is perfect by the law, regardless of the letters involved. (Okay, so I'm ignoring different heights of adjacent space; there's more height in the area in "ll" than "mm", but that translates to constant space removals between adjacent right and left ascenders or descenders.)

    But correct kerning depends on the letter pairs, with some examples mattering a lot, and some being less important. So this law, as stated, is clearly wrong. Correct kerning takes into account the fact that "AV" has room to overlap vertically, while "VV" and "AA" don't, so the particular shapes actually matter. Any possible good rule has to be non-linear to account for this, and certainly trickier than the rule given. I suspect that there isn't a good rule known (other than "get sombody with a good eye to adjust it"), or fonts would just have a "crowdedness" parameter, and the rendering engine would use the rule and the parameter to generate ideal kernings for all pairs of characters on the fly.

    1. Re:Um, no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kerning is overrated
      cæsar

    2. Re:Um, no. by kevinadi · · Score: 1

      I think there's more to it than that. After I stare at the A and V for a while, I realize that what matters is probably the "weight" of the letters. By weight, I mean how complicated a letter look, and how that complexity is distributed throughout the text. So you're correct, this is not as simple as it sounds.

      We humans like things regular. I would tend to think that what makes a text legible is that they have regular spacing on the whole, hence the kerning theory Wired made. However, that doesn't take into account about the complexity of each character. I remember I've read somewhere that serifs are supposed to make texts easier to read, arguably because the serifs made all letters look about the same in complexity. Notice that in a serif font, the serifs are not the same size. "I" and "X" have different lengths. Not to mention that they make a suggested line on top and bottom of words, and between letters. In other words, the serifs make the letters look more uniform. This unexplained "weight" is most likely why the new Wired logo have serifs in the I and E, and none on the other letters. It's not just the kerning; without the serif in the "I", their same-spacing theory wouldn't work since the "I" would look out of place even when the spacing are the same.

      It's more complex if a font doesn't have serifs. That means that you can't artificially inflate a letter's complexity, and have to depend on individual letter's original complexity and play around with the kerning to get the complexity evenly distributed.

      A more interesting research is when one looks at complex scripts like Chinese and Korean. They have complex "letters" and most of them are approximately square. I believe this "volume" thing is universal, and much more insight can be gained from Chinese scripts and comparing their readability against western fonts. This got a promising research value, as the original theory sounds so simple it couldn't possibly be true, and as you think a little more about it, more interesting facts start to emerge.

    3. Re:Um, no. by porpnorber · · Score: 2, Informative

      The thing I find amazing about this discussion is that the Slashdot audience, often (in part if not in whole) so well-informed, appears here so utterly ignorant. Folks, to take a random example, twenty years ago I used to subscribe to a journal called Visible Language. Google tells me that it's still there, at http://www.id.iit.edu/visiblelanguage . It's far from the only source on such information. Yes, there is a research community on these topics. The research has been done. It was done, for print, centuries ago; it was done, for the screen, decades ago. It is something that matters, sure, to nerds as to anyone who reads. But how quite does it get to be news, now? Because someone at Wired recently half-remembered what he learned in a typography class at school?

      So ja, sure, 'equal areas' is just an informal approximation, it's what you remember of the idea, informally, once your school days (or whatever other days they were when you read up on typography) are somewhere in the distant past. It doesn't mean there's no theory to it; it doesn't mean there's no well-researched and well-documented theory of it. It just means that it's one of those, OMG, pre-Internet topics that's tricky to Google for, and nobody, either here or at Wired, dropped by their local library recently to check it out in detail. Or, equally possibly, that it didn't seem worth the effort to explain in more depth when the purpose of tfa was, frankly, just to be cute.

      As to why our on-screen typography pays little attention to such well-known ideas, I somehow suspect it's a combination of the cowboy programmer syndrome so pandemic in web technology and the distinct possibility that some corporate baboon somewhere has a patent-lock on 'text that doesn't look like crap'....

    4. Re:Um, no. by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

      That's a ligature, not kerning.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    5. Re:Um, no. by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

      The thing I find amazing about this discussion is that the Slashdot audience, often (in part if not in whole) so well-informed, appears here so utterly ignorant.

      Actually, if you're dealing with a topic that isn't totally geeky, you'll find that this is frequently the case around here. I'm not incredibly versed in typography, but I certainly know more than the average bear on the subject, and I'm disturbed by how many of the posts here have been modded up when it's clear that the authors have no idea what they're talking about. Thankfully, there are also a handful of knowledgeable posts that have been modded up, too.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    6. Re:Um, no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, your assumptions that the equal inter-letter area mechanism degenerates into simple before/after spacing is simply not true, unless you define the inter-letter area to be very small. For example, in the AV case, once you bring the letters close enough so that a single vertical line passes though both at once, your assumptions that the inter-letter area can be divided into a part attached to the first letter, and one to the second, breaks down. At that point the actual shape (for example the angle of the two lines) begins to have an effect. Take for example LV and AV. Now once you bring them close enough to 'overlap' vertically, the change in area per change in distance in no longer consitant between the two pairs.

    7. Re:Um, no. by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      I'm not incredibly versed in typography, but I certainly know more than the average bear on the subject, and I'm disturbed by how many of the posts here have been modded up when it's clear that the authors have no idea what they're talking about.

      Yeah, they probably pronounce leading as 'leeding', too. And when they say 'kerning' they probably actually mean tracking half the time.

      Snicker :-)

  22. Screens stink for long texts by yusing · · Score: 2, Insightful

    White space, fonts and text density are minor concerns to me (intense reader for decades). Computers are fine for relaxed reads, but for long texts, the medium's just wrong: I prefer paper books.

    Computers breaks my study habits ... intense focus and keeping my circulation moving ... and so I find PDF manuals distasteful. Books: Grab, flip open, crawl inside... quickly, wherever. Maybe it's long habit, but considering the e-book flop, I 'spect I'm part of a majority.

    --

    "You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson

    1. Re:Screens stink for long texts by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      so I find PDF manuals distasteful. Books: Grab, flip open, crawl inside... quickly, wherever

      I find books distasteful. PDFs: Double click, ctrl-f, put in some text, click next a few times...done.

      To be somewhat less sarcastic, perhaps you should look into a widescreen monitor that you can swivel and put into portrait mode. I find that makes reading PDFs and web pages much more natural.

      Maybe it's long habit, but considering the e-book flop, I 'spect I'm part of a majority.

      I would say e-books flopped because DRM sucks. For example, it prevented engineers from being able to make a decent portable reader; if the DRM can't be stripped (ala DMCA), then you can't move it onto the portable device, and this negates the reason for attempting to design such a device.

      Imagine a Tablet-PC sized portrait-style monitor, which you can load books on to. It has a natural interface, say...a touch-based slider along one edge, so you can scroll text. I think that would be pretty sexy, actually...
      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    2. Re:Screens stink for long texts by geek · · Score: 1

      People will always prefer books. As an English major I highlight, note, underline all day long in books. I can bunny ear it and leave it for later. I don't have to recharge it, plug it in, deal with it heating up my lap. I don't need to upgrade it every 6 months. I can site it in MLA in my papers if I so choose.

      eBooks failed for all the above reasons and more. It has nothing to do with a widescreen monitor. Real readers, people who read for enjoyment, not just to ctrl-f something in a PDF about the latest hardware upgrade, enjoying relaxing under the sun with a good book, or sitting in a quiet place with something they can read and doesn't make noise.

      Spin it however you like, eBooks flopped hard.

    3. Re:Screens stink for long texts by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      White space, fonts and text density are minor concerns to me (intense reader for decades). Computers are fine for relaxed reads, but for long texts, the medium's just wrong: I prefer paper books.

      They are minor concerns for you because printers, graphic artists, font creators, and typographers have spent decades (centuries) perfecting their art - to the point to which it is now invisible to you even as you enjoy the benefits.
    4. Re:Screens stink for long texts by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I've noticed that people who prefer ebooks, as a rule are not *readers*, or at most are casual readers only of short material. Whereas people who are lifelong heavy readers, who are accustomed to long reading sessions, usually prefer paper books.

      I think it's not the medium, it's the typeface fatigue factor on both brain and eyes. I go into that more somewhere above, where I expound on discovering that reading SCANNED ACTUAL PAGES online was exactly the same as reading a REAL BOOK, quite unlike how an eBook fatigues both mind and eyes.

      Even so, the realbook is a whole lot more portable and flexible than pictures of its pages confined to a computer screen. And it's kinda tough to curl up with a CRT for an evening in front of the fire with a good book. ;)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  23. Does this really apply to screen-rendered fonts? by Entropius · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The space between letters on my screen generally has a lot of anti-alias grey pixels, and even subpixel-rendering-derived colored pixels, in it. It's not empty.

    One approach would be to apply this sort of kerning logic to a font in a completely analog way (like one would in print), assuming an infinite-resolution display, and then use antialiasing and subpixel-level antialiasing to squeeze more resolution out of the screen.

    Nonetheless, text looks better when lines fall evenly on a pixel boundary -- if a line is one pixel wide, for instance, I'd rather have column 10 illuminated fully than a mix of columns 10 and 11 dictated by the kerning algorithm and provided by the antialiasing code.

    Zelaous application of the kerning rules would result in nearly all characters falling halfway between two pixels. Antialiasing makes diagonal lines look smooth, and it's wonderful for that, but I don't want all my text looking like it's displayed on an LCD at non-native resolution.

    Interestingly, The GIMP has two modes for its text tool -- one that makes some compromises on "the exact shape and spacing dictated by the font" in order to *improve* readability once you quantize distance by sticking the characters in pixels. I find this mode is far more readable for small characters than the one that doesn't.

  24. Disappointing by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I thought someone might finally have come up with some serious research showing how to objectively improve readability, but it's just a summary of kerning.

    Why is this area so bare of real scientific results? There have been a few studies into on-screen readability, typically measuring things like reading speed, accuracy of recollection afterwards, and subjective approval of the document by the reader. However, there are so many variables that people don't seem to control that it's hard to see any general patterns. For example, changing the font from 10pt to 12pt on screen may well not just scale the size by 120%, but also make the dominant strokes two pixels wide rather than one. There is little consistency among conclusions about optimal font size for reading across fonts or whether serif or sans-serif fonts are more readable, perhaps because there are so many variables.

    Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait a bit longer for comprehensive research.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:Disappointing by advid.net · · Score: 1
      I felt exactly the same disappointment. I'm also interested in scientific study of text readability.


      Concerning on screen vs paper readability: much of us underestimate the impact of resolution we have on screen. It's very low compared to paper, even for a 17" screen at 1280x1024. We get used to pixeled characters or slightly blurred ones if anti-aliasing is on (and yes I'm aware of inner pixel anti-aliasing improvements). We get used to it but, please, try to read on screen and then on paper with the same character size, from the same distance. The difference is striking.

      Talking about serif and sans-serif: serif fonts are much more readable on paper (it helps brain to disambiguate many letters), but due to the pixel size on screen the serif fonts are often worse than sans-serif. More straight lines display better.

    2. Re:Disappointing by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Talking about serif and sans-serif: serif fonts are much more readable on paper (it helps brain to disambiguate many letters), but due to the pixel size on screen the serif fonts are often worse than sans-serif.

      The problem with this debate, IMHO, is that an awful lot of "accepted wisdom" simply isn't backed up by evidence. In some cases, even explanations that have long since been debunked are still quoted in "scientific" papers. The one about serifs helping the eye to track along a line of text is a favourite, which bizarrely persists despite eye-tracking studies long ago demonstrating that humans do not read a continuous line of text straight through from left to right anyway.

      I don't recall seeing any research specifically considering the disambiguation properties of serifs, but whatever we do do when we read, it definitely isn't looking at each letter separately. This must make suspect any argument about the readability of extended bodies of text that is based on disambiguation of character shapes. (Obviously in other contexts, for example when viewing source code in an editor, different conclusions might apply.)

      The argument that pixellation and serifs don't mix is another old chestnut. In readability studies, Times New Roman and Georgia hold their own against the likes of Arial and Verdana, with the font size also being a big influence on how effectively text is read and how well it is perceived subjectively. Throw in issues like anti-aliasing, and whatever conclusions we can draw, it's certainly not clear on the evidence to date that sans fonts are more readable just because they have no serifs.

      Hey, I wonder whether we can set up a typographic version of Snopes. :-)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re:Disappointing by advid.net · · Score: 1

      serifs helping the eye to track along a line of text is a [legend that] persists despite eye-tracking studies long ago demonstrating that humans do not read a continuous line of text straight

      I know eyes makes only three jumps to read a text line in a pocket book, three or four sight spots are enough to catch words and read the line. (this is for people who read fast, without mental vocalisation).
      I agree with that. But I didn't say that serif help tracking the line.

      According to my personal and subjective experience, serif fonts are more readable because it add more information, especially to disambiguate those groups of letters: {m,n,u} and {p,q,b,d,h,g}. I guess many of you will find it strange because letters don't look confusing, maybe some will think I have a kind of dyslexia (I really don't). In fact the issue arises at high speed reading, when the brain guess a group of words rather than actually reading it.

      May I suggest you to try an experiment:

      1. Choose 8 pages of an unknown text (from a downloadable novel, standard vocabulary).
      2. Print 4 pages in Arial font (or worse Arial Narrow), 4 pages in Times font (or better Bookman Old Style). Adjust the font size for a fair comparison, and make short lines as in pocket books.
      3. How many time do you need to read each set of pages ? Compare.
      4. Repeat with fast reading friends.
      5. Write an accurate scientific article.
      6. Profit. ( no, this is a /. joke, sorry )
    4. Re:Disappointing by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      According to my personal and subjective experience, serif fonts are more readable because it add more information, especially to disambiguate those groups of letters: {m,n,u} and {p,q,b,d,h,g}. I guess many of you will find it strange because letters don't look confusing, maybe some will think I have a kind of dyslexia (I really don't). In fact the issue arises at high speed reading, when the brain guess a group of words rather than actually reading it.

      Sure, but it seems to me that the interesting question is whether it's the subtle changes in letter forms created by using serifs that disambiguate otherwise similar-looking letters, or whether it's something else like context. If you read a word like "turning" in a serifed font, is it the serifs that prevent you reading it as "tuming", or is it the fact that you have learned that "tuming" isn't a word in English and "turning" is?

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    5. Re:Disappointing by advid.net · · Score: 1

      Sure, but it seems to me that the interesting question is whether it's the subtle changes in letter forms created by using serifs that disambiguate otherwise similar-looking letters, or whether it's something else like context. Brain uses both to quickly guess: shape + language (vocabulary and phrase context).

      If you read a word like "turning" in a serifed font, is it the serifs that prevent you reading it as "tuming", or is it the fact that you have learned that "tuming" isn't a word in English and "turning" is? Again both are important and serif improves performance. The experiment I described (see my GP post) will answer the question if you want to compare fonts only, with equal help from the linguistic factor.

      Conversely, "tuming" with sans serif fonts will easily read "turning" (if read fast enough and with a matching context in the phrase). Whereas serif fonts will help you to spot the misspelled word and let you read others faster and with a lower error rate.

      Something else: damaged prints are more resilient with serif: you can read a faded, distorted, "noisy" text better with serif fonts. You can also try this: read a printed line (some new text to you) with a sheet of paper on either the lower or higher part of the characters' main body. Hide one fifth (it reads fine), one half (still not that bad). Try with serif and sans serif with the same percentage hidden. Difference is obvious.

  25. Non-uniform heights by teoryn · · Score: 1

    How does this law apply to punctuation and multi-part characters like i and j? Does the area to left of the space between the dot and stroke of the i count towards the 'volume'? Does all small punctuation have to be exceedingly far away from everything to maintain that space, or does the law just not apply in such cases (in which case, what is the generalized law?). Cool idea none the less, but it'd be nice if it were better specified.

    1. Re:Non-uniform heights by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      How does this law apply to punctuation and multi-part characters like i and j? Does the area to left of the space between the dot and stroke of the i count towards the 'volume'? There is often special handling for letters such as i, j, f. In essence, some combinations are not kerned, but combined into ligatures. A ligature is a single glyph of two or more joined characters. Take a look for combinations "fi", "fl", "ff", "ffl", "ffi", "ij" in properly typeset books (or even in your web browser). You may notice that the letters are joined, and not exactly the same shape as just cramming two single letters together. In fact, the "i" is often undotted.

      The "ij" combination is uncommon in English, but occurs often in some other languages, such as Dutch and Finnish. Arguably, the word "Fiji" deserves its own special ligature or special kerning.

      Since ligatures are themselves glyphs, kerning of ligatures with other letters needs to be defined for proper typesetting. For instance the space between "fi" and the following letter is not necessarily the same in "field" as in "fill".
      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  26. It's Maths by Wiseman1024 · · Score: 1, Funny

    It's Maths, with an S.

    --
    I was about to say 13256278887989457651018865901401704640, but it appears this number is private property.
    1. Re:It's Maths by geekoid · · Score: 2, Informative

      No,its Math.
      Deal.
      oh wait, this contradicts me:

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/math

      wait, no it doesn't.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:It's Maths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except in the US, and you're reading a US-centric site written by US citizens and maintained in the US. Sorry.

    3. Re:It's Maths by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      written by US citizens

      Darn it, I never realised submitters and commenters had to be from the US.

      Wait, am I allowed to be here?

      Unless your contention is that the slashdot editors write the site. In which case, allow me to stop laughing to pause for breath :-)

    4. Re:It's Maths by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

      Slashdot editers cant right to save there lifes.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
  27. But have you noticed... by M-RES · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Have you noticed that Wired's 'NEW' logo uses an almost monospaced font (ie: the kind used on old manual typewriters aka 'Courier' - where every character was the same width, hence the lowercase i with very large serifs to take up the space effectively)? Only the W is of a different width, but they've balanced it by using a slab-serif I and then balanced the useage of that amongst the sans-serif face by also including a slab-serif E so that it doesn't stand out in your subconcious. Such is the way of kerning... it's not mathematical at all, it's all in the 'feeling'. It's a purely aesthetic exercise and as has been quite rightly pointed out in the comments, a font that is perfectly kerned at 12pt becomes odd-looking when scaled up to a display size (even scaling to something like 120pt would show it) - hence some type families including a 'display' version specifically kerned for use at larger sizes. Typography... it's all in the whitespace y'know ;)

  28. latex by dheera · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is exactly why MS Word sucks and LaTeX is awesome, at least in terms of readability. Try reading a LaTeX'ed documunt on the screen, it is extremely pleasant.

    1. Re:latex by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Informative

      The irony, of course, is that the latest versions of Windows support Opentype pretty comprehensively, the latest fonts from MS support some Opentype features, pretty much all of the serious, commercial, professional-grade fonts you can buy these days come as Opentype (at least from sources like Adobe), Opentype features are far more powerful than anything in the TeX/METAFONT world, yet Microsoft were too busy revamping their UI again to add support for these features in Word 2007. So much for BillG's claims about readability on the screen being important.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:latex by doti · · Score: 1

      Exactly! Mr. Knuth devoted many years of his life studying fonts and character spacing.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeX#History

      --
      factor 966971: 966971
    3. Re:latex by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      Er, most TeX-generated PS/PDF documents that I've seen print fine but look horrible on screen. IIRC, it's got something to do with them using an unusual font format.

    4. Re:latex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone using some of the more modern font packages, like mathpazo or times, should produce a standard PDF with good on-screen fonts. Computer Modern, the original font, does look beautiful in print but leaves much to be desired on a screen.

    5. Re:latex by vonFinkelstien · · Score: 1

      The ones I make look beautiful. Nothing wrong with the fonts. Of course I use pdfLaTeX to create the PDFs directly, instead of LaTeX - dvi - ps - pdf. You can type \usepackage[T1]{fontenc} to fix things if you don't use pdfLaTeX.

    6. Re:latex by CRCulver · · Score: 0, Redundant

      The lmodern package provides the Latin alphabet portions of Computer Modern in a nice-looking Type 1 format.

    7. Re:latex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LaTeX is my favorite too. I think it rocks... I started writing my thesis in M$ Word and after a week I dropped it and started learning LaTeX. In less than a week I was up and running. And I was one of them who couldn't stand to write code to produce a document!!!

      LaTeX gurus here knows how it handles text, references, etc. How it manages to place referenced images so you can see them in the same or facing page when you meet the reference, and many, many more... That's why I like it.

      You just can't resist to something which is made keeping in mind the rules of typography...

    8. Re:latex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I switched from Mac to Linux. Thing is, in the Gnome PDF viewer LaTeX (yes, pdflatex) fonts don't look that good (so I view all documents at 150%). Most other fonts do look good, though.

    9. Re:latex by mauddib~ · · Score: 1

      And I can't understand why you take solace with things obviously broken. You adopt your way of working (eg. watching your document in 150% instead of 100%) because of errors in the PDF viewer. Did you file a bug-report?

      --
      This is a replacement signature.
    10. Re:latex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think it's a bug. The fonts just don't look too great in small, so I make them bigger... It's the font's fault, I guess.

  29. Web fonts don't have custom kerning pairs - hmmmm by rh2600 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Web fonts don't have custom kerning pairs

    Whilst true, this is a bit misguided.

    First things first - web fonts, and print fonts are the same. Fonts are fonts. Some are better than others and include more default kerning pairs than others. But rest assured, Georgia, Arial etc have got kerning pairs (for print and screen) and hinting information (for screen).

    Type rendering engines *do* support kerning pairs, that the typographer who designed the font decided to create and embed in the font file. There are a bunch of patterns that are used to expose badly spaced pairs that typographers use when checking these spaces and fixing them.

    Custom kerning for print is actually font independent and is done in the print design app of choice. Print design uses these same font files and their kerning pairs, and print designers won't custom kern large blocks of text, unless of course they want to spend 3 days per page of content. Print designers do often kern large headings and logotypes where any subtle problems are (literally) magnified and are obvious to the reader. Online designers do this in a number of ways, but typically resort to using an image (because the logotype font isn't likely to be on the end users computer anyway). CSS does give you the ability to create custom kerning pairs if you would want it, through a mixture of text-indents, spans and margins but its not very clean.

    So the author if this piece is correct, but a little misguided and not being particularly fair on "the web". ;)

  30. FWIW by Dausha · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://webtypography.net/ This link goes to a way of implementing Elements of Typology online; which is supposed to improve readability. Its interesting in that it sort of goes against the common idea with screen size and web text. The common idea, as I understand it, is that we should not worry about the 800X600 and use as much screen real estate as possible. Then, text columns can stretch as wide as my 19" monitor will let them. The problem is, that works against readability. The "optimal" is about 4.5". I use 37em for text body width, and that seems to work.

    --
    What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
    1. Re:FWIW by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Actually, the optimal line length for extended reading has more to do with the angle through which yours eyes must rotate to get back to the start of each line from the end of the one preceding it. It happens that for typical typefaces, text sizes and reading distances, this works out at around 4–5", or 1.5 alphabets, or whatever your preferred practical rule of thumb is.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:FWIW by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      Here's a radical idea: if you don't want your web site to be the full width of your 19" monitor, don't restrict your entire readership to your preference, which may not translate to their display device well anyway. Instead don't make your fucking browser window full-screen.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    3. Re:FWIW by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

      The funny thing about that site is that it only covers the first 20 or so pages of a 400 page book. Far far far from complete.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
  31. Dont mess up the ascii art !! by droopycom · · Score: 1

    Come on, nobody should ever need anything but a 80 columns ascii terminal.

    Kerning is a scam to destroy ascii artists !!

  32. No kerning? You're full of crap. by pclminion · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, Web fonts don't allow custom kerning pairs, so you can't work the same magic online as in print.

    They don't? What the hell are you talking about? A TrueType font contains a kerning table. If the font rendering does not kern properly, it just means the rendering engine is a piece of shit. There is nothing about "web fonts" (what the hell does that mean?) that preclude proper kerning. It just means that the fonts which are typically installed have shitty kerning tables.

  33. Wired's Logo is still really ugly by cruff · · Score: 1

    I took a look at the Wired web site expecting to see something nice and elegant, but was met with something I consider to be really ugly. They seem to have missed out on applying it and having something pleasing to look at.

    1. Re:Wired's Logo is still really ugly by mshurpik · · Score: 1

      Irnoically enough, their website's font size and screen width assumes the desktop is set to exactly 1024, which are two things HTML was never intended to force on its users.

  34. Why some people still prefer newspapers & mags by mnemotronic · · Score: 1
    • I can roll up a magazine and beat the dog
    • I can fold a newpaper and whack flies
    • If I sit on the train and scan through Penthouse, people will think I'm an crude, insensitive, misogynistic lout. If I do the same thing with the Penthouse hidden inside a copy of Roll Call, people know I'm a crude, insensitive, misogynistic and powerful lout, and they'll fear and respect me.
    • Newspapers are good for concealing the bottle of booze
    • Paper needs dead trees - lots of 'em. Extensive tree cutting decreases the ability of the ecosphere to scrub CO2. It employees unionized workers who use fossil-fuel powered tools, contributing to CO2 levels. Used paper either takes up landfill space or requires recycling, both of which employ more unionized workers using dead-dino juice. I could go on and on, but as you can see, there's nothing but upside as far as the eye can see.
    • The petro-fuel and paper-based media organizations have got the "campaign contribution" process down to an art form. These "new-media" internet companies just do not understand how to grease the wheels of justice. ("justice". Ha! I love that one)
    • Newspapers make good fans for the underprivileged women in church on a hot Sunday morning.
    • Exactly which end of the mouse are you going to wipe your a** with?
    --
    The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
  35. maximum readability??? by nanosquid · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, all I could find on that page is a lot of designer mumbo-jumbo and pseudo-science.

    Where is the actual evidence that this "maximizes readability"?

    1. Re:maximum readability??? by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      Wired: Making stuff up

      Tired: Science and fact-checking

    2. Re:maximum readability??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  36. Screen and font is a complex issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    When come to font and screen, very few people gets it. Even in the article, "Web fonts in 2007 still don't have kerning pairs", what does it means? Anyone care to exlain? As far as I know, quite a number of fonts in my machine do have kerning pairs, and web browsers rendered them nicely. There are exceptions, of course, but that does not mean Web fonts don't have kerning pairs. I know this, I have done more complex work than just kerning (like mark positiong,ligatures, contextual alternatives etc).

    One thing that the article fails to explain is, when comes to screen reading, kerning is just one facter. The other VERY important factor is how well the glyph is rendered. In truetype fonts, this is achieved through proper hinting, and I really mean PROPER. As far as I can tell, there are very limited fonts that are properly hinted, even the commercial ones. To make matter worse, part of hinting are patented, make it more difficult to be available on platform like Linux (without using the patent, that is).
    Freetype has done a termendous job on getting their "autohinter" working, but it will never be the same as font hinting. This is because when a font is hinted, the designer decides how it will exactly look like at specified resolution, while with autohinter, the program have to "figure out" how it suppose to look like. You know which one will produce a better output. Of course, all this does not apply to printed material where the printers are high resolution.
    So far, even though truetype hinting is aging, it seems like there is no better substitude in the pipeline.

    1. Re:Screen and font is a complex issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just FYI, xpdf *disables* auto-hinting when using freetype. This is why it looks as good as Acrobat. If you *enable* it (hack the source) you'll see that it makes pdfs just horrible.

      Your friendly AC coworker.

  37. Courier (or courier new) by cmburns69 · · Score: 1

    It seems to me that this could be a reason why programmers generally seem to like monospaced fonts. Not only do things line up in columns, but each letter is easier to pick out and read (due to the singular widths of letters).

    For example, this sentence takes up more space, but is easier to read.

    --
    Online Starcraft RPG? At
    Dietary fiber is like asynchronous IO-- Non-blocking!
    1. Re:Courier (or courier new) by Sique · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The main difference between normal text and programs is that in texts the smallest semantic unit is the morphem (which is mostly a syllable), while in programs the smallest semantic unit is the single character (or symbol). It thus makes sense for programs to use monospaced fonts, because then every semantic unit has the same size.

      But we read text by reading morphems, and the reader even can easily be confused by hyphenation through morphems (re-adi-ng is difficult to read compared to read-ing), and morphems don't map to symbols in the letter based alphabets anyway, so each morphem has its individual size to begin with. Monospaced fonts don't help spotting morphems in letter based alphabets.

      It's different in Chinese or Korean though, where each morphem has its own character, and those languages use - monospaced fonts!

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    2. Re:Courier (or courier new) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just a nitpick, but if you're going to write several paragraphs about a term, you might want to spell it right. The correct spelling is morpheme.

    3. Re:Courier (or courier new) by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Also makes Spot The Typo easier -- cuz something just won't line up right. I use this when chasing the invisible bugaroo in HTML.

      ==========

      Momentary weirdness: sometimes my fingers will type a homonym without bothering to consult my brain -- "one" and "won" being a common swaperoo here. But now it's gone a step too far -- I just tried to type "one't" instead of "won't"!!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    4. Re:Courier (or courier new) by Sique · · Score: 1

      Sorry. I am German, and we write "Morphem".

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
  38. don't forget ligatures... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good typesetting/layout programs allow to make nice ligatures (I've "typeset" books using Quark XPress and... LaTeX [yay!] and they both support typographical ligatures). Honestly I've seen some CS paper produced with LaTeX that were, to me, piece of art. When I read a document where the "fi" is not correctly ligatured, I see it immediately (but admittedly I've got trained eyes).

    Another thing is that a printer working, say, at 1200 dpi, is still one order of magnitude more precise than a screen. Not too mention that some people find it less tiring to read a book/magazine/newspaper than on a computer screen.

    Besides that, I'm programming using a monospaced "programmer font" (non-aliased, "pixel perfect" font) and I don't want ligature to appear in my editor anytime soon...

  39. Sage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wonky mathematics.
    Factually inaccurate.
    Speculation.
    No news.

    Please Slashdot, it's not the volume of articles that matters to anyone. It's the quality of articles that matters. If you prune articles like this, other, better articles will be easier to spot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio

  40. Print Volumes by twitter · · Score: 1

    It looked better in print.

    Yes, back in 1940 you could see the thickness of lead in the linotype output, which was indeed a volume. That sounds good, but it might not be right because I just made it up. I do, however have a jar of old lead letters about that old for fun and props. No linotype blocks though.

    If you want to get really hoary, I'll bust out my old IBM typewriter, hook it up to WP 4.x and show you proportional fonts that are all about areas instead of volumes. Then we can party like it's 1989.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  41. God, I know we don't talk much, but... by arclyte · · Score: 1

    Please, please, please don't put a kerning attribute into the hands of people who consider fixing up their MySpace profile "web design".

    Welcometomysite.IhavealottosaysoIturnedthekerningd ownsoIcouldfititallin.

  42. The biggest problem with readability on the web... by yellowstone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...is that nobody seems to care about margins.

    In so many websites (and yeah, Slashdot, I'm lookin' at you) every square inch of screen space seems to be cram-jam full of content, pictures, navigation menus, adds, sidebars, logos...

    Stop. Please... just stop.

    --
    150 Opening BINARY mode data connection for slashdot.sig (129323052 bytes).
  43. Re:Web fonts don't have custom kerning pairs - hmm by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

    I don't get where they pulled that "web fonts don't kern" from. I can see the kerning differences between Vera Sans and DejaVu Sans in my browser, even though they use identical letter shapes.
    Which one looks better is largely a matter of opinion, though I like the way DejaVu has funny spacing between T and small letters.

  44. its just kerning by catmistake · · Score: 1

    This isn't anything new. Its not the "math" or the "science" or the "law" of anything. Its just kerning. Along with ligatures, built into most fonts.

  45. Does kerning mean guys in kilts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I get them confused. Is kerning the one where guys in kilts toss trees, or is it the one where they push a rock on ice and use tiny brooms to make it stop?

    1. Re:Does kerning mean guys in kilts? by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Tossing the caber, and curling, respectively. I'm surprised you didn't associate it with kernalling, as performed by many core Linux developers.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    2. Re:Does kerning mean guys in kilts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No that is "software masturbation".

  46. logo by counterfriction · · Score: 1

    looks like it was ripped from ICTCM.

    --
    Sig free's the way to be.
  47. Too simplistic by WillAdams · · Score: 3, Informative

    As David Kindersley's experiments have shown, it's more about the interplay of light and dark as perceived by the human eye than mere physical measurements.

    See his _Optical Letter Spacing For new printing systems_ for a more detailed system and account --- but as Dr. Charles Bigelow has stated, no system fully accounts for all subtleties of all designs and the perceptions of the human eye. Co-designer of the Lucida superfamily, and having worked out the spacing system used for the Optima capitals sandblasted into Maya Lin's Vietnam Veterans' Memorial and newly placed as a profesor at RIT he's well-worth pying attention to.

    William

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  48. Mod parent up by tknd · · Score: 1

    This is a real complaint and is often a key element to good usability: the correct use of whitespace and grouping. One of my complaints when slashdot was trying to pick a new theme for the website was that the current theme doesn't use whitespace effectively and relies too much on unnecessary lines and gradients.

    Looking at the comment form there's already an issue. The current comment form looks something like:

    Name

    tknd

    Subject

    Mod parent up

    Of course the bolding helps but the whitespace use is incorrect. A better layout would be:

    Name:
    tknd

    Subject:
    Mod parent up

    Another big beef I have with the comment layout is when you're reading comments there is no consideration outside of the styling for whitespace. So if you just glance at the page, your eye gets confused because things aren't grouped well or separated by whitespace. You have to train yourself that the green bar denotes the top and the gray bar denotes the bottom and the stuff in between is the comment. This could easily be fixed if there was whitespace.

    For example, the current comments look like this:

    - - - - - - - -
    A Comment Title
    - - - - - - - -
    Some other comment meta information
    - - - - - - - -
    Finally the comment text.
    Which hopefully is more than one line.
    So you can actually identify it quickly.
    - - - - - - - -
    Reply
    _ _ _ _ _ _
    - - - - - - - -
    Another Comment Title
    - - - - - - - -
    Some other comment meta information
    - - - - - - - -
    Finally the comment text.
    Which hopefully is more than one line.
    So you can actually identify it quickly.
    - - - - - - - -
    Reply
    _ _ _ _ _ _

    (Unfortunately the lines don't show up well because slashdot complains when I use too many of those characters) But why so much need for the styling? It looks cluttered in my opinion. You can easily get by with whitespace and grouping instead of adding more styling. I don't want to see your lines and gradients. I want to read the comment. Something much easier to read would be like the following:

    A Comment Title
    [small font meta information]
    Finally the comment text.
    Which hopefully is more than one line.
    So you can actually identify it quickly.
    Reply

    A Comment Title
    [small font meta information]

    Finally the comment text.
    Which hopefully is more than one line.
    So you can actually identify it quickly.
    Reply

    Obviously I have limited tools available with the allowed html but I would put a little more spacing above and below the comment body to allow the body to be more defined. But I'd certainly get rid of all of the backgrounds except maybe the title bars like how the old slashdot had it. In the current layout I even get confused trying to understand which comment is a parent/child when there are many responses. There's simply too many lines and backgrounds, it's annoying.

    1. Re:Mod parent up by mshurpik · · Score: 1

      Sure, line breaks are the most important thing. When writing HTML, you have to start with the assumption that it's an ASCII document where the only formatting options you have are tabs and line breaks. If I were to teach someone HTML today, I'd start by grilling them on the use of 1, 2, and 3 BR's at a time.

  49. Re:The biggest problem with readability on the web by Ranger · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...is that nobody seems to care about margins.

    I agree. Whitespace is very important. I prefer to have decent margins and padding when I create web pages and I tend to use san-serif fonts for readablity. Also fixed-width is very important too. It's harder to read wide columns. Another good place to start is A List Apart, but there are other good resources as well.

    --
    "You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
  50. Re:Web fonts don't have custom kerning pairs - hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't get where they pulled that "web fonts don't kern" from.
    Well, it must be true. Otherwise, WiReD wouldn't have printed it, and Slashdot wouldn't have included it in the summary.
  51. Probably a bad idea. by hedora · · Score: 2, Informative

    Personally, I'd be upset if web designers had precise control over font rendering. I've overridden Firefox's default fonts with ones that I prefer, and regularly use ctrl + and ctrl - to adjust font sizes. It's better to have a fluid, customizable presentation layer for on-screen reading. Otherwise, we'd probably be using PDF instead of HTML.

    Also, I feel like we already have plenty of free (freedom) fonts, and high quality renderers; kerning for desktop computers was solved in the 80's. (Antialiasing was huge and recent though.) Anyway, I'd like a 300 dpi display, and resolution independent rendering will make them practical. Today's models have the resolution of a dot matrix printer in draft mode... No mater how good the font renderer, it's going to look lousy compared to a modern printer or a book.

    1. Re:Probably a bad idea. by kasperd · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'd be upset if web designers had precise control over font rendering. I've overridden Firefox's default fonts with ones that I prefer, and regularly use ctrl + and ctrl - to adjust font sizes.
      I completely agree with that. Originally all text layout decissions were left to the browser, and it probably would have been better if it had stayed that way. Obviously the current situation doesn't work. Browsers do a fairly good job by default, but web designers don't like the result and make hacks to change the look of the page, which happens to only work with few browsers and only if you stick with the default settings. In reallity I find that very often a page made by somebody who wouldn't call themselves designers ends up looking a lot better than what a web designer produces.

      The comment that better font designs won't work online is ridiculous though. You can view online content with a nice font, if your browser uses a nice font. It is not the job of a web designer to choose a good font - let alone design one. If they want to produce nice looking fonts for web pages, they should be designing browsers.
      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  52. Re:The biggest problem with readability on the web by Petrushka · · Score: 1

    Who's forcing you to have your web browser filling the whole screen? Just make the window narrower. Works fine for me. If you start adding five-centimetre margins to every chunk of text on the web, that's just going to piss off those who are looking at a different-sized window.

  53. Slashdot even blocks what HTML allows by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 1

    In the print world, a sentence break is wider than a word break, for superior legibility. Standard HTML rendering compresses any string of spaces down to a single en-space sized blank. But there are ways around that. When I write for the web, I always add an extra space after a full-stop using the non-breaking space escape:  

    But I can't do that here. Slashdot prevents posters from using non-breaking spaces, among many other things (I can't use standard physics or trigonometric notation, because Slashdot blocks the Greek characters Δ, θ, etc. I can't even use π).

    What's truly sad is that non-breaking spaces USED to work here, but they got filtered out sometime in the past few years. And, despite my complaints, nobody ever put the capability back.

    1. Re:Slashdot even blocks what HTML allows by MoUsY+spell-checker · · Score: 1

      They were probably filtered out for a reason. To prevent trolls from using them to cause page-widening, may be?

      --
      ~The MoUsY spell-checker: so balanced that I'm unbalanced.~
    2. Re:Slashdot even blocks what HTML allows by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 1

      It would be trivial to require non-breaking spaces to have a regular space on one side or the other. I can write the regular expression substitution without even thinking hard:

      s/\([^ ]\)\([^ ]\)/\1 \2/g

      Don't tell me that a bunch of expert Perl hackers can't come up with something that simple.

    3. Re:Slashdot even blocks what HTML allows by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You seem to be using non breaking spaces for a purpose different from its intended one. Non-breaking spaces are designed to be used—well...—when you want to disallow a line break at a space, in situations like "A. U. Thor" or to keep words together where it'd be awkward to have them separated—a good typographer will not let a short word like 'a' be left alone at the end of a line but join it with a non-breaking space to the word following it, for example.

      You probably want U+2001 EM QUAD and friends.

    4. Re:Slashdot even blocks what HTML allows by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Erm... Yes. But that would kinda defeat the point of using a non-breaking space, wouldn't it?

      A more sensible approach to preventing the page-widening trolls from having their fun would simply be to insert a (breaking) space if there is a continuous string of n characters without one, as IIRC Slashdot already does if you type things like long URLs in a post.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  54. Online vs. print by Phroggy · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure the problem isn't fonts and kerning.

    When they come up with a practical way to display text online that isn't backlit, I'll be interested. Paper reflects ambient light from the room. Computer displays don't (with occasional exceptions where the background is usually a medium gray, not white). Solve that, and e-books will take off.

    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    1. Re:Online vs. print by advid.net · · Score: 1
      I agree with you, I would say the main problem isn't fonts and kerning.

      But it don't think that it's backlit either, even if it's an other important issue.

      It's resolution, as I've replied here.

    2. Re:Online vs. print by kalidasa · · Score: 1

      E-ink isn't backlit, it uses ambient light. It's also higher res than most LCDs. The problem is, it's slow and usually monochrome (color is very expensive), and the only devices that are widely available which use it are saddled with mediocre software (the Sony Reader is especially handicapped by the Connect software and bookstore).

  55. Nah, nah, you're all wrong... by gondwannabe · · Score: 1
    ...take a straight edge and lay it across a line of type, covering the midline of each lowercase letter and the descenders (tails on 'y's and 'ps' , etc).

    If the font has serifs, you'll be able to read it just about as well as if the entire line is exposed. This is important (he said, puffing himself up) because when we read, we generally scan letter shapes and word shapes that are familiar - it's unconscious - but has been demonstrated in the lab umpteen years ago by so-and-so as well as whosit (you in the back, pay attention!).

    Try it without serifs - you can still read, but you're working a bit harder, eh?

    This has been implicitly understood since the time of Caxton and is the reason why these font standards have evolved ever since.

    There's a term for this, uh legibility.

    --
    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people!
    1. Re:Nah, nah, you're all wrong... by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Legibility is markedly different from readability. For a lengthy discussion of this sort of thing there's Tinkel, et. al. Also see Dr. Asaf Degani's research for NASA, I've links to it on my web pages:

      http://members.aol.com/willadams/books-free-type.h tml

      Or, ``Univers is readable, Helvetica is legible (or decipherable).''

      Interestingly, there was a phonetic letterform design which took advantage of the characteristic you note though, creating variant forms for letters w/ differing pronunciations, changing only the bottom half (in such a way that it resembled the letter which normally made that sound ``gh'' in ``tough'' had the lower part of ``g'' and ``h'' altered to resemble ``f''), the idea being that using the system to learn to read would allow a person to continue reading more normal letterforms w/ minimal interruption.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  56. 'Scuse, forgot to escape filtered content by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 1

    That expression was supposed to read s/\([^ ]\) \([^ ]\)/\1 \2/g

  57. Road Signs by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

    Same tech is used on road signs; swhy the letters are different sizes.

  58. Sometimes a book is nicer. by n1hilist · · Score: 1

    Some people just like the smell of old books, some folk want to feel they're holding the actual copy and it's a real thing - and books don't have 'issues' like popups, spyware and hassles, a book is just text with sometimes a few unidentifiable things stuck to the pages.

    I, for one, prefer eBooks, I have -20 diopters of sucky myopia (short sightedness) in both eyes and I prefer reading on the screen, I can change the fonts, manipulate the text until I'm happy with it and read more or less comfortably. However, I really miss lying in the bath/bed reading.

    Don't suggest Audio books, I can't stand audio books 99% of the time.

    Now if someone could make a cheap, lightweight eBook reader with a large (I'm talking somewhere between A4 and A5 size) and I can set the fonts to white on black, I would sell all three of my nuts.

    Good day.

  59. Re:The biggest problem with readability on the web by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Who's forcing you to have your web browser filling the whole screen? Just make the window narrower.
    A lot of sites stick a banner in somewhere that imposes a minimum page width. If you make the browser window narrower it doesn't make the content narrower, it just makes it so you have to scroll horizontally.

    If you start adding five-centimetre margins to every chunk of text on the web, that's just going to piss off those who are looking at a different-sized window.
    The key is to not define the size of the margin but the size of the block of text. Readability is dependent on the relationship between the width of the block of text and the vertical spacing between lines. Wider lines need wider gaps to keep your eyes from getting lost on "carriage returns." (of course there are other aspects as well, but this is big until your lines get absurdly wide)
  60. Re:The biggest problem with readability on the web by iangoldby · · Score: 1

    Also fixed-width is very important too. It's harder to read wide columns.
    Better is max-width. Reading wide columns is tiring, but sideways scrolling to read a fixed width column on a very narrow screen is much worse.

    Most browsers accept a max-width CSS rule. For IE you can either write a special fixed-width rule, or use a tiny bit of Javascript:

    // This script makes the 'page' element have a maximum width
    // of 55ems. We use this instead of max-width because
    // Internet Explorer doesn't yet support max-width.
    var d = document;
    function resizeBox()
    {
      sObj = d.getElementById("page").style;
      wem = d.getElementById("em").offsetWidth;
      if (d.body.clientWidth) (d.body.clientWidth/wem>55) ? sObj.width="53em" : sObj.width="96%";
    }
    // Gecko-based browsers understand max-width, so don't need this.
    if (navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf("gecko" )==-1)
    {
      onload = resizeBox;
      onresize = resizeBox;
    }
    (Sorry, my JavaScript skills are minimal to say the least. All suggested improvements very welcome.)
  61. Re:The biggest problem with readability on the web by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Also fixed-width is very important too. It's harder to read wide columns.
    In print: yes. On computers: no.
  62. mmmk by cky625 · · Score: 1

    Could this be why some people still prefer newspapers and magazines to the Web?" world wide web or spider web? UFO applies too.
  63. Re:Does this really apply to screen-rendered fonts by imsabbel · · Score: 1

    Sorry, if thats true, than you are misusing your font rendering.
    If your fontsize is so small that you get subpixel letter distances, you obviously dont care about either screen DPI or general readablility, so you dont apply to their target group.

    --
    HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  64. did anyone notice this? by Gearoid_Murphy · · Score: 1

    of course, first thing that occured to me, I said, by george, dosen't the new logo of wired obey the laws of optical volumes. I, for one, welcome our new optical overlords.

    --
    prepare the survey weasels.
  65. Re:Web fonts don't have custom kerning pairs - hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once again /. is on crack. Btw the difference in kerning between Vera and DejaVu is a font shaper bug.

  66. It's OS dependant, damn. by DrYak · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure your stupid Windows box with bloody stupid font handling doesn't.

    Some people just happen to use other softwares.
    I can almost bet that there are several publish surfing on their work's Mac with all font beautifying extension turned on who see a different result than you.

    On Linux web browser tend to not use kerning (Firefox, Konqueror - in their default settings) and text processors (OpenWriter) tend to use kerning if information provided by the font (I don't know if FreeType has an auto-kerning mode for fonts without kerning mode, though it has an-auto hinting mode for fonts without or with patent-protected hinting)

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:It's OS dependant, damn. by kalidasa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Windows can do it in some applications. Actually, the one thing you can't fault Microsoft on is their work on fonts, typesetting, and encoding. Security? They're idiots. Usability? They're at best semicompetent. But in the NT/2K/XP/Vista line, they've done as much with OpenType, Uncode compability, and readability as any other OS vendor/group.

    2. Re:It's OS dependant, damn. by quis · · Score: 1

      Safari and Camino (Gecko) on OS X. Both blocks of text are the same length.

      If you think about it, this is probably the desired result, otherwise there would be a small area of space between VA and much more space between AA or VV. Which would then look unbalanced.

      This is the centuries-old practice that the article seems to be trying to reinvent. Adobe InDesign has had "optical" kerning for a while now.

    3. Re:It's OS dependant, damn. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good lord, you must be kidding! The one thing I do fault MS for, and the reason I used to avoid their systems if at all possible and now do again is precisely because they don't know the first thing about fonts and typesetting.

      When a formatted multi-page document changes layout merely because you print to a different printer, even within the same brand (HP III to HP II for instance) it indicates serious problems with how you're handling fonts and layouts. Yes a pure text document will change layout under certain circumstances under windows with an application that handles fonts, like, say, Word.

      This is extremely annoying when you're creating a document for publishing on blue-line paper.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    4. Re:It's OS dependant, damn. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That's why you print to PDF and convert all fonts to outlines. You don't have to embed them, and the resulting document should print the same on all devices. Of course, you have to shell out for Acrobat for that. Unless you're on Linux :D But then you need your program to support PDF. Unless someone knows of a PDF creator. I've heard of doing it in various ways but none of them resulted in a document appearing on the desktop, but that may have changed by now.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:It's OS dependant, damn. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      If you're going to go as far as to print to PDF (or PostScript which will also fix the issue) why bother with MS apps at all? That's the approach I'm taking. :)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    6. Re:It's OS dependant, damn. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well, I agree wholeheartedly. And sure, postscript will also fix the issue, but PDF is more apprehensible. Lots of people out there don't know what to do with a postscript file and a lot of printers (people/businesses, not devices) won't accept them (!) even though Acrobat will convert PS to PDF.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:It's OS dependant, damn. by rstarg · · Score: 1

      To find a PDF Writer for Windoze - goto http://www.cutepdf.com/

  67. Ironic that Wired's web font IS kerned AV by bWareiWare.co.uk · · Score: 1

    It is a bit of a stretch that kerning is news. But at least it is funny, because Wired's web font (Verdana) IS kerned at least for me (Gentoo). Though a better example is something like 'Trebuchet MS' which is heavily kerned. (which in another irony ./ uses where it specifies a font (why is the subject entry box font specified when the comment entry box is simply the browser default?))

  68. That's because the web is backwards by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

    But on the web? I don't think anyone would really notice or care that much. Plus, it'd be hard to achieve, since you can't rely on all machines rendering fonts at the same resolution, and you can't rely on fonts actually being present on all machines, and you can't rely on all the *versions* of a typeface actually being the same across different platforms. None of this is news. The web was designed to sort-of deal with these problems.


    Which is what the experts knew and designed for all along. Unfortunately the "web designers" thought they knew more about design than the typographers who've been designing text for millenia, and the developers who knew enough to know what they didn't know.
  69. Well spotted! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone please mod that up. Yes, this "equal area" thing is rubbish. With no kerning at all, "AA", "VV", "AV" and "VA" all have exactly the same *area* between them. When they are correctly kerned, "AA" and "VV" have more area between them than "AV" and "VA".

  70. Re:The biggest problem with readability on the web by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

    I'd disagree on not using the screen width (I can resize* my windows, you know), but at least you measured your space owith 'em'. I can't really handle people that sets maxwidth (or even worse, the placement of text) with pixels.

    * In fact, I didn't notice that before, but my first reaction to full screen text is to increase the font size. I don't do that when there is a left menu. I still like full width + big fonts better.

  71. One disadvantage of Kerning by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    Kerning, by decreasing the space between characters, can make OCR more dificult. For example, the difference between % and O/o can be hard enough to tell in certain fonts without kerning. Throw Kerning in, and they can become impossible to tell.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  72. Irony by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

    I can't believe that Wired, the most typographically-challenged magazine in print, is printing an article about readability. Is this a case of "Do as I say, not as I do", or just basic couldn't-find-a-clue-with-both-hands-and-Google?

    Or maybe they've gotten better. I think I stopped reading them after about their seventh issue, their "fresh and edgy" layout seemed more "fucked-up and annoying" to me...

    --
    Just junk food for thought...
    1. Re:Irony by Fritz+T.+Coyote · · Score: 1

      Thank You! I thought I was just getting old and crotchety, or just old, when I found that reading Wired gave me a headache. I especially appreciate their use of oddball text and background color combinations to make passages almost unreadable. Of course much of their drivel isn't worth reading anyway, so there it is.

  73. Geeks not nerds? by Duggeek · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'd use mod points, but I'm a designer (Web and print) and this has to be set straight. Besides, who on /. actually reads TFA to comprehend these posts?

    Waa-aay back on the early printing presses, characters were steel/pewter “shots” and held together with molten lead. The shots were lead-alloy and would break-away from melting the pure lead once the print-run was complete.

    The letters each occupied a rectangular space, since the shots were forged from rectangular molds. When the shots were fitted together on a line, they would have a specific amount of space between them which was largely based on their overall size. (the shots were three-dimensional, and therefore, actually had volume)

    For the common, body-text type, the rectangular spaces (proportional to a letter's width) were enough to make the type readable. However, with larger type in the masthead, headline or other large type, the space between letters could sometimes lead to a confusing appearance. The larger letters were often made of wood, not metal, so the spaces would be cut-away near the corners. The notches that resulted made the angular letters (e.g., like ‘VA’ or ‘WAY”) fit-together more closely, and yet would not lose any space when placed next to letters that occupy the full rectangle. (such as with ‘AMV’, ‘MAN’, or ‘OMG’)

    Since only the corners of certain letters were trimmed-away, it came to be known as “cornering”, which in-time became the vernacular we know today, kerning. Presumably, some Northern European dialect gives us the word we now use.

    So many people confuse kerning with a system called tracking and think the two are one and the same... NOT so! While each is a name for a system to determine the visible space between letters, they do it in fully different ways. In a nutshell, tracking applies to a full typeface and is applied to all text at the same time. (as if to increase/decrease the size of the letter-shots themselves) Whereas kerning only applies to the space between two, specific letters.

    In that light, you may have already guessed that kerning is not widely used with body-text (like the text you're reading now) and tracking is used instead. For instance, the next time you read a fully-justified column, (aligned both left and right sides) notice how some lines appear “stretched” or “compressed” when compared to others. Tracking is the mechanism for making justified text.

    Where you'll find kerning most often is in mastheads, corporate logos, and occasionally in article headlines. Working with only two letters at a time is a tedious process, so it's generally reserved for when fewer letters are displayed at a larger size.

    The very logo for Slashdot (top of this page) is a fair example of kerning; the letters are almost touching, but the same effect can not be done so precisely by simply adjusting the tracking of the same text. (even the slogan, “NEWS FOR NERDS, STUFF THAT MATTERS” is kerned just a bit)

    What amuses me the most in this thread is the number of people claiming they can compare the effects of tracking or kerning from one poster to the next. Are you all using the exact-same font on your browser? (Slashdot posts appear in the default font for your browser--go ahead, test it!)

    With the obvious variety of platforms represented here, I'd safely say “no”. Unless you're in the same room, looking at the same PC monitor, you can't make any comparisons. While the page reads the same, I'm sure it appears just-a-bit-different on my screen than it does on yours. There's no proof there.

    Besides “Optical Volumes” does sound just a bit cooler than “Optical Areas”.

    --
    This post © Copyrite Duggeek, all rights reversed.
  74. Re:The biggest problem with readability on the web by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

    For sites you visit frequently, use greasemonkey (firefox extention) to rewrite the html/css yourself.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  75. Web Browser with kerning pairs fonts from 1994 by Brit_in_the_USA · · Score: 1

    It constantly amazes me how advanced technologies get lost and ignored.

    The Acorn (later ARM) range of RISC workstations (popular int eh UK) had an operating system RISC OS.

    From version 1 it had a vector based font system that was pushed as the standard for all applications (open API).
    From Version 2 all window text was drawn using the system (with anti-aliasing and hinting).
    From Version 3.5 (1994) the RISC OS came with a web browser that used this font system.

    The font system used vector fonts, supported full sub-pixel antialiasing and hinting and kerning pairs.
    Here we are 14 years later and most implementations of font renderings on GUI's and Web Browsers look smudgy and kerning pairs are still missing.

    links:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS

  76. I didn't RTFA by ai3 · · Score: 1

    Is this mathematical proof that Comic Sans is the worst font ever?

  77. Typeface vs Ease of Reading/Comprehension by Reziac · · Score: 1

    I think you're absolutely right. Here are two examples:

    ==========

    I just got done reading a long book as an eBook.

    I then noticed a hardcopy at the library, checked it out, and started re-reading it -- and I definitely am getting more comprehension and retention out of it. In fact, it's almost as if I had not not read the book at all, rather than having just finished reading the book only one day before!!

    Not to mention that the print copy is easier on the eyes. But it's not just because it's not on the computer screen:

    ===========

    Couple weeks ago, at archive.org's new OpenLibrary project, I read an entire book online in one sitting. OpenLibrary shows you actual scanned pages as images, so you're seeing the exact same thing as you would if you held the paper book in your hands.

    Amazingly, MY EYES *AND BRAIN* DID NOT GET TIRED the way they do with regular eBooks (and that's even tho I use an eBook reader that emulates a slightly yellowed paper book, and can use any font). As with any paper book, I could read as long as I wished. Conversely, with eBooks, I've found that after an hour or so I have *got* to go do something else.

    After some thought, and a side-by-side comparison, I concluded that the entire reason was because the realbook's typeface was EFFORTLESS to read, whereas the computer font required work from both my eyes AND my brain (despite 13 years of experience with reading from computer screens). Compared to a visually-similar eBook display, the scanned actual pages were *restful* to read, and caused no eye or brain fatigue.

    ==========

    So if I have a choice -- give me print from a real printing press. My eyes and brain will thank you.

    One also has to wonder what computerized teaching is *failing* to get into kids' heads -- both by unduly fatiguing their eyes and brains, and by information not being as well comprehended and/or retained (which probably goes right along with the fatigue factor).

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    1. Re:Typeface vs Ease of Reading/Comprehension by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 1

      One also has to wonder what computerized teaching is *failing* to get into kids' heads -- both by unduly fatiguing their eyes and brains, and by information not being as well comprehended and/or retained (which probably goes right along with the fatigue factor).

      Yes! I don't mind online manuals for programming languages, etc. I retain these things as I use them, not as I read them. But you are right -- what about schoolchildren reading encyclopedias online, on cd-rom, etc? What about online college correspondence courses? You just have to wonder how much benefit there actually is. I guess it depends on the subject matter. Computer programming stuff, you essentially repeat that by using it. But what about literature, theory (of various disciplines), history? I dunno, books just seem to have it.
      --
      blah blah blah
    2. Re:Typeface vs Ease of Reading/Comprehension by Reziac · · Score: 1

      There have been a few studies that showed computers are a negative factor wrt learning in the classroom, and while there are other factors at work, one has to wonder if this eye/brain fatigue, especially in a young brain that is still LEARNING HOW TO LEARN, could cause long-term damage to the child's ability to comprehend and retain knowledge.

      Programming, as you say, is almost purely learn-by-doing, which probably uses an entirely different set of brain pathways.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  78. Cool! A Minnie Driver/Anne Hathaway love scene. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    READ MY .SIG!*

    * Ok, I know that .sig is a Unix thing and, as such, should be in lower case as it's a case-sensitive filesystem.

    Now's the time to jump on it! Get it fixed!

    Oh, and by the way, there's no reason "web fonts" can't have custom kerning -- it's supposed to be an abstract description language with the browser doing a local version of a "proper layout", whatever that means, and thus could include kerning. Programmers are lazy.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  79. Free PDF Creator by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Unless someone knows of a PDF creator.


    Free support to create PDF in non-supporting application is simply "printing to PDF" type of converters (to print an application must be able to generate Postscript. Instead of sending the postscript down the USB cable like a normal laser printer, these exporter pack it inside a PDF file along with the other things needed - like embedding fonts and compressing images).

    For Linux : most modern distribution automatically create such a filter as a possible printing target next to the actual hardware printers.

    For Windows : There's a software called PDF Creator that creates such a virtual printing target. It's open source and free (and uses ghostscript as a PostScript engine).
    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  80. custom kerning pairs isn't the problem ... by kmaclean · · Score: 1

    >Could this be why some people still prefer newspapers and magazines to the Web?" To answer the question ... I prefer newspapers to the Web because the size of articles (and their position in relation to the front page) gives me a sense of the importance of a story. With Web articles, you can have an almost unlimited amount of information attached to a topic - some/most of it of questionable value. Because newspaper real estate costs so much, reporters are required to get to the point succinctly, otherwise the newspaper would go out of business. If a story is worthy, it gets more room. And as a reader, you can decide at a glance whether you want to read the whole thing. You don't get that sense with web articles.

  81. An Amazing (Re)Discovery by DynaSoar · · Score: 1

    Monospaced, ragged right. That's the formula prescribed by Writer's Digest for the most successful submissions to editors, circa 1980. The easiest read (on the eyes and brain) is the most likely to be read, and so accepted. Having spent almost 5 years as an editor, reading way too much compared to what was good enough to print, I can tell you for a fact it's true. When you have 100 pages to read before bed, and you run across a manuscript that has
    wordsruntogetherononeline
    a n d t o o m u c h s p a c e
    on the next, it slows you down, annoys you, and you trash it. Kerning is just one component, and one of proportional fonts. A such, the point is lost compared to the evidence, except there's precious little consideration given to web page readers, and so proportional fonts rule the bitwaves.

    The problem makes more sense, paradoxically, when you consider that we don't read letters at a time, but rather words at a time. If we read letters at a time, the spacing between letters would be a significant factor for understanding a single word at a time. But we read 4 or so words at a time, and the spacing problem accumulates. Losing track of comphrehension because of this problem makes us have to stop and read those words in series (one at a time) instead of parallel (a phrase at a time). The cognitive effort involved bothers us. The brain is lazy and revolts at extra work.

    If TFA says this, tough. I didn't read much of it. I've known this for a quarter century, from practical experience as well as studying language use as a cognitive psychologist.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  82. My personal preference... by jd · · Score: 1
    ...would be to take what has been learned in all the different arenas (TeX/LaTeX, Postscript, OpenDocument, OpenType, OpenOffice, etc) and to say "Ok, the applications suck at some things, the languages suck at others, the fonts suck at whatever's left over - how do we improve on what we have to fix all this?"

    It should not be impossible to create a font language that borrows the strengths of Metafonts and OpenType. You want a language, because shapes don't necessarily scale uniformly and may be context-sensitive, but you want the language simple enough that fonts can be generated by mere mortals. Interpreters for fonts shouldn't be too bad - most modern machines are happy with interpreters for entire applications, so we're easily at the point where just-in-time font generation should not be an issue.

    OpenDocument is a markup language. TeX and LaTeX are markup languages, albeit of a slightly different kind. Since there's a push to standardize on OpenDocument, it only makes sense for OpenDocument to be equal in power and versatility to TeX. No point in having a standard for documents if not all documents can be translated to that standard. (This doesn't mean OpenDocument should be used for all things, only that if there exist TeX documents that cannot be mapped into the OpenDocument format, we will outgrow OpenDocument too quickly. A standard should never be so constrained that people start to break it in order to do what they need to do.)

    OpenOffice, KOffice, and all these other office packages, all have to have an engine for some of the core DTP functions. Web browsers used to have this problem, but there are now a few popular core engines and usually some sort of support for Mozilla plugins for non-Mozilla-based browsers. I don't see why the same method couldn't be used to solve DTP problems - perhaps have TeX or something similar as a plugin for regular wordprocessors to add the DTP functions. (That eliminates the need for wordprocessors to support DTP functions directly, which they usually do very badly at.)

    Another option would be to get a group of real hardcore TeX hackers together to crunch out what should be LaTeX 3 and basically shock the typesetting community into getting off its collective backside. Shouldn't be too hard - it's not like it requires actually debugging LaTeX, it only requires producing a parser that can read LaTeX and write TeX. Which isn't horrible. Anything that's a macro is expanded, anything else is copied through. The expander should be trivial, the only difficult part would be to actually re-implement the macros - and that's only because there are so many of them.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  83. You missed my point by Engineer-Poet · · Score: 1

    that would kinda defeat the point of using a non-breaking space, wouldn't it?
    Not for sentence breaks. All I want is to guarantee that if the line doesn't split, I get a sentence-space bigger than a word-space. Requiring a (regular) space on one side or the other of a non-breaking space does that, and does not create problems with page-widening, etc.
  84. And then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'll do a report on how varying levels of background contrast effect the decision to adjust font weighting. Then they might consider leading and word spacing upon clarity vs. scanning, and maybe some word grouping and margin justification... Then they might realize that the alternating background thing may require some additional kerning they didn't think of before because of positive/negative spatial relationships.