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Ohio University Blocks P2P File Sharing

After receiving the highest number of notices from the RIAA about P2P file sharing, Ohio University has announced a policy that restricts all fire sharing on the campus network. Some file-sharing programs that could trigger action are Ares, Azureus, BitTorrent, BitLord, KaZaA, LimeWire, Shareaza and uTorrent. Claiming that this effort is 'to ensure that every student, faculty member and researcher has access to the computer resources they need,' is this another nail in the coffin of internet freedom in American universities or a needed step to prevent illegal fire sharing?

81 of 425 comments (clear)

  1. I wonder what level they are blocking? by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wonder what level are they blocking?

    If its at the wall, won't internal sharing continue?
    Just because you can stop the data coming in via p2p means doesn't mean the data won't be there (waste/DC can exist in a private garden without ever touching the real net).

    Or is this an active process which does a portscans your machine continuously?

    Failing everything else, there is always sneakernet. Expect a rise in blanks in the area.

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:I wonder what level they are blocking? by Jim+Hall · · Score: 4, Informative

      I wonder what level are they blocking?
      If its at the wall, won't internal sharing continue?

      From the article, I guess they are blocking at the port level. That is, if Network Security discovers you have P2P traffic coming from your network jack, they turn off the port that serves that jack (possibly for 24hrs, or until you talk to them.) That means you can't even do P2P inside the local network.

      We do this at the University I work for, unless you have a research need to use P2P (or some other legitimate need that has been reviewed.) I imagine they will by default disable P2P through their wireless network - but doing P2P over an 802.11 network would seem silly anyway.

    2. Re:I wonder what level they are blocking? by CannonballHead · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Seems silly to do it on an 802.11 but people do it; my school is basically all wireless since the campus is spread out, and P2P can really bog down a wireless network. So bandwidth is now limited in general... I don't think we have torrents actually banned, though.

    3. Re:I wonder what level they are blocking? by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I try to use torrents and similar p2p applications to download operating system releases. Then put in a request with your university's IT department to mirror those releases on the university LAN.
    4. Re:I wonder what level they are blocking? by goodtim · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At the university I attended, P2P file sharing was blocked using Packeteer. Which essentially scanned every packet to/from the Internet and cross referenced them with a list known P2P protocol packets. It was highly effective. That was until some enterprising students set up SSL tunnels to remote machines. The reason that the university cited for blocking P2P was of course bandwidth utilization, but as I remember there was an issue where the University holds some liability for students who violate copyright laws by downloading pirated content. However I am not familiar with the laws regarding this. Overall, P2P file sharing was tolerated on the internal network as long as it wasn't obvious. Meaning that anonymous FTP servers with 100GB of movies would attract attention. However setting up and FTP server with a password that was given out to friends went by unnoticed.

      --
      "Flee at once, all is discovered."
    5. Re:I wonder what level they are blocking? by heffeque · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Good thing it's still legal in Europe and that... they've just passed the vote that said that there should be protection for copyright material _except_ for private users with no lucrative intentions and for personal use.

    6. Re:I wonder what level they are blocking? by blackicye · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "So you block some legitimate use... There are typically other ways of getting those materials anyway, so no major harm done."


      Well some places you block port 80, or better still entirely remove internet access. there are typically other ways of getting those materials anyway, going to libraries, out to do field research, traveling to foreign countries, making long distance phone calls..so no major harm.

      Same premise, where do you draw the line though?
    7. Re:I wonder what level they are blocking? by blackicye · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "If you can't figure out a way around this, then i think i speak for most of the linux/bsd community when i say that we don't want you in our club anyway. This is really only going to serve to block people that shouldn't be using bittorrent. If you have a legit purpose for it, then this really shouldn't effect you."


      I don't know if you were joking or half-joking, but sentiments and statements like this only serve to reinforce the sense of elitism and exclusivity of the linux community in the minds of joe public. This what is holding back the growth of the linux community and the general acceptance of linux and OSS among the general computing public, as well as aiding the perpetuation of companies like MS and Apple.

      How does one determine who should and shouldn't be allowed to use a particular protocol or software? Less peers on bittorrent means shorter TTLs and less bandwidth on torrents, how is that a good thing?

    8. Re:I wonder what level they are blocking? by Gonarat · · Score: 3, Informative

      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 500 GB USB drive. Even a burned DVD can hold around 4 GB of music/video/software. Another possibility is an ad-hoc wireless network or a wireless router not hooked to the internet. Never underestimate the ability of college students to solve a problem like this.

      --
      Beware of Sleestak
  2. WOW players will be pissed by Akaihiryuu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Blizzard downloader uses Bittorrent to download patches.

    1. Re:WOW players will be pissed by Lesrahpem · · Score: 3, Insightful

      BitTorrent is also used for a lot of other 100% legitimate things. OSU has a sizeable computer science department and offers a lot of courses related to UNIX/Linux. I wonder if they realize that these days the most common way to get ISO's for Linux is BitTorrent?

      Aside from all that, this effort is somewhat futile since many clients support encrypted/tunneled transfers and/or using Tor. From my experience, Tor traffic is nearly impossible to reliably classify (and therefore block).

    2. Re:WOW players will be pissed by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A university will already have a fileserver with the required linux ISOs on it, for download internally. The same with all other required software. No bittorrent needed (and it's far from the most common way to get it.. it's still much faster to go to the ftp site and download it directly).

      The Linux ISO excuse has been used so much now that it's used as code for Warez/Porn, as in 'I went over my bandwidth cap downloading Linux ISOs'.

      Bittorrent has legitimate uses in the same way an Uzi does. Sure, I could use it to shoot ducks, but...

  3. Nail in the coffin? by DogDude · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not a "nail in the coffin" of anything. If college kids have to pay a bit for their own connection, they will. Hell, I bet most college kids these days all have cable TV. What's another $20/month on a $100/month cable bill? They call their cable company, tack on the service, and it's over. No controversy.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Nail in the coffin? by Volante3192 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They don't always get that option. Back when I was at Berkeley in 2000, bandwidth was getting hammered hard. Some people even thought of getting their own service, but phone and cable co.s don't have the necessary access to the dorm network that they would need to put that in place, and rescomp wouldn't give it to them anyway.

      Course, it has been 6 years, things may have changed, but I doubt it...

    2. Re:Nail in the coffin? by postmortem · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I pay $200 /semester for computer use. And all I use is their bandwidth.

    3. Re:Nail in the coffin? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Doesn't that kinda depend on being able to use the bandwidth for something useful, though?

      If the university is offering high-speed Internet access for free to students, then restricting it to ensure it's properly available for academic use is one thing. If they're actually charging for it at a market rate, then restricting it is completely out of line. If the students start doing illegal stuff with it, sure, kick 'em off if it's causing problems, but don't block stuff by default even for those who are using those technologies for constructive purposes when those people are paying for the privilege.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  4. Bandwidth? by CannonballHead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My college, which is private, doesn't allow even iTunes sharing amongst the students, because the bandwidth usage slows everything down significantly. Now, this is a private school and we aren't rolling in money, but it's still an issue.

    1. Re:Bandwidth? by vertinox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My college, which is private, doesn't allow even iTunes sharing amongst the students

      I went to a state college in the 90's and they kept the dorm networks completely separate from the school networks. I don't know if it was foresight or not, but they appeared to keep the college system up and running all the time, but the dorm network often slowed to a crawl (and this was before Napster) and you had to foot it out to a lab if you needed something off the network.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  5. Illegal Fire Sharing? by MarqueeMoon · · Score: 2, Funny

    I think water would do just fine

    1. Re:Illegal Fire Sharing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      ROR. That's irregal too!

    2. Re:Illegal Fire Sharing? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper [(candle)] at mine, receives light without darkening me.

      That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation.
      -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Isaac McPherson, 13 August 1813

      That is the basis of both "information wants to be free" and "copyright infringement is not theft [in the literal sense]".

      Jefferson's works make me wish Amnesty International hadn't already appropriated the candle-and-barbed-wire logo for themselves.
      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  6. Not because of RIAA alone ? by cyberianpan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Peer-to-peer file-sharing consumes a disproportionate amount of resources, both in bandwidth and human technical support." "Left unchecked, P2P applications can consume all available network bandwidth," The bandwidth is an ok reason.

    It also initiated "John Doe" lawsuits against users of computers on Ohio University's network. The university estimates staff members have spent nearly 120 hours dealing with the prelitigation letters from the RIAA. That's not a good reason. How are we to know which is the "real" reason?
    1. Re:Not because of RIAA alone ? by Score+Whore · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why would you say the second isn't a good reason? Responding to properly submitted legal papers is a requirement of such an organization. Even if it turns out that the RIAA ends up unable to make their case, the university still has to bear the cost of responding to subpoenas.

    2. Re:Not because of RIAA alone ? by Sancho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly. I bet the same people complaining that that "isn't a good reason" would be up-in-arms about a tuitition increase intended to address the issue (by hiring more staff, cleaning up the infrastructure to make dealing with the complaints easier, etc).

  7. Re:Freedom is not about theft by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 4, Informative

    file sharing != copyright infringement != stealing

  8. It's not about speech by winkydink · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's about controlling bandwidth costs that have soared as a result of the explosive growth of p2p traffic. I have spoken with several large ISP's in the past year and most of them quote numbers like 65-75% of their total traffic is p2p. Given the demographic makeup of most universities, I'd bet their percentage is even higher. Those big fiber pipes cost big bucks.

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

    1. Re:It's not about speech by Rakishi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then put god damn bandwidth limits on students in both gb/month and kb/s with an easy to use system to apply for exceptions.

    2. Re:It's not about speech by TheSkyIsPurple · · Score: 2, Informative

      Lets say you have an 4 OC-12s (no idea what they'd actually have)
      That's about 2400mbps of bandwidth. (4&~600 mbps payload)

      Lets say you have 24,000 students, and 10% of them are doing p2p => 2,400 sharers
      That's 1mbps per sharer to saturate your connection which is not really a large amount.

      In this scenario, unless you bring your cap below that, you won't affect existing sharing.
      And if you drop it below that, you really start to impact real work/research.

      Doing an across the board limit just doesn't work well, and even if you factor in exceptions.. you're still going to have a large chunk that use their excepted connection for p2p.

      Fine... so restrict p2p only on the "excepted" connections? But now you're playing the same game just on a smaller field, and that field will keep growing as well. You've just put the problem off a bit.

      I dont' know how to solve the problem, but bandwidth limits don't strike me as a good approach. /twiddle those numbers all you want... I bet there's only a small cosm in which limiting bandwidth will make sense, and I doubt that will map to many major universities.

    3. Re:It's not about speech by KillerCow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then put god damn bandwidth limits on students in both gb/month and kb/s with an easy to use system to apply for exceptions.


      No no no! This will actually solve the problem while maintaining the neutrality of the network!

      By telling students what they can and can't do, the University maintains its mommy/daddy role to the students, and further leaves themselves open to more legal actions, allowing them to parent the students more in the future.

      The goal is to have as much administration involved as possible (administrators only exist to create more administration) and to control the students as overtly as possible!
  9. Higher learning by Reason58 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In addition to consuming bandwidth and technological resources, P2P file-sharing also exposes the university network to viruses, spyware and other attacks. It also is frequently used for illegally distributing copyrighted works. Replace "P2P file-sharing" in that statement with "the internet" and it is just as valid. This has nothing to do with any of the reasons they have listed and everything to do with them preemptively caving in to legal pressure from the RIAA.
  10. Oh No! by Rebelgecko · · Score: 3, Funny

    Ohio University has announced a policy that restricts all fire sharing on the campus network
    ... is this another nail in the coffin of internet freedom in American universities or a needed step to prevent illegal fire sharing? >
    Oh No! How will pyromaniacs share now? But seriously, it's kind of sad that a major error like that can slip through... twice.

    --
    CATS/Diebold '08- All your vote are belong to us!
  11. Makes sense by MrCawfee · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've worked at a college, in an average week we would get 10-15 riaa letters (with our seemly small number of 3000 residents), and responding to them gets to be a huge chore. Most campuses are taking the "we don't want to get sued, so we will not put ourselves in that position" approach, so ignoring those letters is not an option.

    At the place i worked at, for a while we did try to block kazaa and the like, the problem was that there would always be a new protocol that would pop up to take it's place. We eventually gave up on blocking it because of this.

    This story is really not a new thing in the university world, most have a policy of limiting the student's ability to fileshare (some through innocent means like NAT routing, others through throttling the bandwidth for those services).

    So before we all get up in arms that people are limiting access, you'd think again when you have to call 20 people in a day, tell them why their access has been shut off, and have every one of them claim that they've never file shared in their lives. Only to get the call the next day where they complain that their their myspace is too slow.

    1. Re:Makes sense by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 4, Informative

      You have two problems, they can be handled separately.

      First, you get RIAA letters. The appropriate response is a form letter saying that "Our school privacy policy prohibits us from releasing user information without a subpoena or court order" (obviously you'll want to verify that with a lawyer, but you shouldn't be sending out user information based on random letters). If you do get a legit subpoena or court order, send them the info if it's still available.

      Second, you have excess bandwidth usage. This is really simple: Charge the students a reasonable fee for bandwidth overages - this will encourage users to conserve without unduly constraining people who actually are willing to pay for their bandwidth. It also has the advantage that as demand increases you automatically have the money to pay for upgrades.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    2. Re:Makes sense by MrCawfee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your first point: we don't give out that information to them, we do the "cover our ass" paper trail in case we get sued. so no, that information is never given out

      Second point: Actually we are implementing pay for service very soon (mainly to cover the cost of re-wiring our older buildings as well as wiring newly purchased properties).. sooo... you're right about this one ;)

  12. Re:give me a break by Pantero+Blanco · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They stop file sharing because it's clogging the network and people can't use it for real work. Please stop bitching about your perceived birth-right of file sharing.


    If that was the reason, they'd just throttle it to a reasonable level. Also, if you would RTFA, that's not the reason that they give for blocking it; they just give it a mention after talking about all of the RIAA threats.
  13. Knee jerk by hansamurai · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So a few weeks back, everyone finds out that Ohio University leads the country in file sharing. Now instead of taking steps to try to curb this, they just announce they'll cut it off all together. I'm sure they felt pretty embarrassed being on top of the list, but there are other options.

  14. Applause by arivanov · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Applause to the BOFH that has pushed it through, though I would have done it differently.

    Most university IPs are real on a really high speed connected LAN. As a result they get elected to supernode status by most modern P2P applications. As a result the university network becomes a jump point for NAT traversal for all leaches within 30-60ms rtt around it. As a result the resource usage is clearly disproportional to the actual on-campus usage. Essentially all small and medium corporates and home users sitting behind firewalls in the immediate vicinity live off that resource and steal a significant portion of the Ohio University network capacity.

    Personally, if I was the admin, I would have tried to QoS P2P down (and net neutrality be damned) to the point where the campus is made equivalent to the rest of the world.

    Unfortunately even if the protocols were easier to isolate, that may be quite difficult for a network the size of Ohio State. Most network equipment used at the bandwidths in question cannot do selective delays and probability drops very well. The P2P applications nowdays make the "if the protocols are easier to isolate" statement false anyway. All the developers know that they are committing a resource theft and they go way beyond what is considered spyware tactics to achieve their aims (current Skype is a fine example of this).

    So on the balance of things, just banning them to hell is probably the most cost effective options. Congrats and applause. Can we have more of that please. A few more and the net economics will go back to where they belong so people actually start looking at things like multicast and frontline in-local-loop delivery instead emulating it through resource theft.

    --
    Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
    http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    1. Re:Applause by mmurphy000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Personally, if I was the admin, I would have tried to QoS P2P down (and net neutrality be damned) to the point where the campus is made equivalent to the rest of the world.

      Applying QoS across the board on all known P2P applications would not be a violation of net neutrality. Arguably, neither would applying QoS for a single standard (de facto or de jure) protocol, like BitTorrent.

      What would be a violation of net neutrality would be if they applied QoS to BitTorrent, except to certain sites that paid the university a fee.

  15. Medium vs Message by SiliconEntity · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem I have with these kinds of regulations is the confusion between the medium which is used to transport the data, and the message, the specific data being transported. If the Uni is unhappy about copyright violations, that's one thing; or if they have bandwidth problems, that's legit; but restricting specific protocols and programs does not accurately target the problem behavior. They seem to adopt the maxim that "the Medium is the Message"; that is, if something is being transferred by Bittorrent, it is a copyright violation. And granted, that is the case much of the time.

    But it is not a perfect correlation. Banning Bittorrent will hamper downloading Linux ISOs and other high traffic, legitimate materials. There is no justification for saying that file sharing as a whole is illegal, any more than you could say that using the Internet is illegal even if it turns out that much traffic violates the law.

  16. Against the grain by trisweb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Everyone else is going to be "OMG lamerz teh MAFIAAAAA won because of retard schoolz like u" but seriously, why is this not a good idea? It's the school's network, the RIAA is actually on their tails trying (however illegally or immorally) to punish their students, and they have every right to restrict the use of file sharing services on their network.

    Yes, I know that there are great legal uses for BitTorrent, but do you really think 95% of the students are using it to legally download Ubuntu or something? Yeah right. Get real and be honest with yourselves, this is probably a smart thing for the school to be doing. If the students want to download whatever they want, then they need to pay for their own DSL or move out of the dorms and be responsible for their own actions (gee, what a thought), but while they're using the school's network and the school is somewhat responsible for them, I think it's perfectly reasonable to restrict their illegal file sharing.

    It's a whole other argument whether the RIAA sucks (they do) and whether file sharing positively impacts the recording industry (it might) but for a school, come on, it's their right, and probably the right thing for them to do. Get over it.

    --
    "!"
    1. Re:Against the grain by TheGreatHegemon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Their network? Last time I checked my housing payments go towards paying for it. (Yes, I know it does, I've seen the budget). I'm paying for something I can't use freely... Thank god for encryption and VPNs. (Secure IX is pretty handy, albeit has some bandwidth limitations)

    2. Re:Against the grain by bark · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, it is *their* network whether or not you pay for a portion of it.

      If you pay a doctor for the use of their CAT scanner, do you suddenly get to "own" a piece of it and can come in afterhours to use the equipment to do cat scans of your dog?

      You pay for stuff that you don't use freely all the time. Why should this be any different?

  17. How can you block file sharing? by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You can tunnel just about any service over any other on a TCP/IP network. Do they plan on blocking http? email? ssh? ping? If so, why offer any network access at all? If not, I'm sure the students are already at work with various stegenographic and tunneling techniques that let your share files over unconventional services. Also, when I share with my college peers, I generally just do so using a usb disk drive that I carry with me. I can move tens of gigs of data in just a few minutes. Does the university plan on doing a full cavity search of all students to make sure that they don't possess any readable/writable media? This is the information age. You can't stop people from sharing information! (fucking Luddites)

    --
    ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
    1. Re:How can you block file sharing? by element-o.p. · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, but there's got to be something on the other side of that tunnel. IOW, you aren't just tunneling from the students' PCs to the Bit Torrent/KaZaA/gnutella/whatever host -- you have to have an intermediate endpoint outside the university network to be the other side of your tunnel, which then connects to your torrent. At that point, the RIAA complaints are no longer the University's problem (although bandwidth still is).

      Add to that the fact that most people don't even know how to update their computers, and the fact remains that while all the CS majors might still be able to download their mp3s^H^H^H^HLinux ISOs, they make up a relatively small portion of the population, and therefore both the bandwidth usage and RIAA complaints are reduced.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  18. Unsurprising by shogarth · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Nail in the coffin of internet freedom" is a bit of an overstatement. There's no free lunch. Dealing with DMCA takedown notices is a huge burden on campus IT staff (our campus has a network security officer who has spent most of his tenure chasing movies and music) which cannot be ignored without the risk of losing the campus's protection under the DMCA safe-harbor provisions. Further, campuses don't have a magically free internet connection. Most pay into a state-wide consortium for Internet2 access then pay an additional, metered rate for commercial internet traffic. Why should universities spend limited resources to subsidize torrent traffic?

    Now before anyone talks about the legitimate p2p use, even that is a questionable use of university resources. Ideally p2p shares bandwidth costs so that everyone gets something for a minor contribution. This doesn't necessarily work out to the benefit of universities since their fat, low-latency pipes take priority over the narrow, slow-upload-speed DSL and cable-folks. Ultimately, the universities have to allocate resources to support university business and this policy must be seen as a business decision. If it is necessary for an aspect of university business, I suspect an exception will be allowed as soon as a faculty member makes the request. If the students are miffed, they can pay for commercial wireless access (like most cell phone companies offer) for on campus or use xDSL or cable at home.

    1. Re:Unsurprising by yar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's no free lunch, but there are certainly legitimate uses. I've had students use peer to peer applications in my course. I've also had to deal with DMCA notices that students receive in the course of my work in IT at a university. Universities might very well need to make business decisions, but the business of universities is not necessarily the same thing as a commercial endeavor, nor should it be treated as such.

      Policing content, though, is another road to losing DMCA safe harbor protections, which are partly based on the OSP not being responsible for user actions- you certainly have to respond to DMCA notices, but beyond that it gets dicey. If you find obvious infringement in the course of your work you are obligated to deal with it, but other than that I'd find that particular business decision questionable for various reasons, ethical and legal.

      I'd have less a problem with the situation if students who lived in dorms had the option of paying for comparable service. Although I'd personally still have concerns.

  19. isp's crying about having to provide what they say by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have spoken with several large ISP's in the past year and most of them quote numbers like 65-75% of their total traffic is p2p. Given the demographic makeup of most universities, I'd bet their percentage is even higher. Those big fiber pipes cost big bucks.


    and both isp subscribers and students pay big bucks, or is 5 figures a year not enough for them?

    its one thing to apply qos to manage bandwidth, its quite another to start making student's choices for them and refusing to provide "internet" service.

    especially for isp's.. if they cant provide the bandwidth they sold to their customers then they should be sued for fraud, not allowed to strip down and hobble what they advertised as "unlimited". Lesson to learn: don't oversell your bandwidth.
    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  20. Yes it is by Weaselmancer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Freedom is about being able to do what you want. Responsibility is knowing what to do with your freedom.

    Port blocking, while it will restrict copyright violations - is a restriction of freedom.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  21. Re:Congrats for caving to corporate terrorism UOH by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I went through those problems living in a dorm, then they blocked p2p using the completely bogus "to stop viruses" excuse.

    for the next 2 years the network was crawling even slower than it was before.

    as for "non-school related activities": people live there. Its their home. I suppose university students are just supposed to be machines who do nothing but eat sleep and work, and of course obey whatever nanny-school tells them?

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  22. In related news.... by crhylove · · Score: 3, Funny

    Applications by incoming freshman has dropped by 50%!!

    --
    I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
  23. Re:Completely untrue! by trisweb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Funny how the same baseless arguments are playing over and over like a broken record.

    Face it-- downloading music is probably wrong, regardless of what you personally believe, unless you go out and buy an equal number of CDs for every album you download. Yes, it is a free non-rival good, but you should still be paying for it in some sense if you're getting something out of it. Anything less is just lying to yourself about the morality of the issue. There's no guaranteed "right to free music" for you or anyone else, nor should there be; try thinking about it that way.

    Of course it's extremely complex -- for instance, I prefer to balance the RIAA and friends amorality by buying Indie CDs instead of big labels to pay for my "illegal" downloads. Yes, I know I'm a hypocrite, but who isn't? I know it's wrong, and I'm not pretending otherwise, but I am trying to realize the balance of "wrongness" and trying to work the free market toward supporting those who need it most.

    But to stick to this incessant rambling about "it's not stealing you idiots, I'm not depriving anyone of anything" -- yes, we get it, how about a new tune? What's the next step? How do we support artists instead of using their music without paying? or, how do we support the artists themselves instead of letting 90% of the profit go to the RIAA? There are bigger fish to fry than protecting your own (non-existent) right to free music, so try putting all that brainpower to good use. We're gonna need it.

    --
    "!"
  24. No Servers! by Spazmania · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Didn't Ohio University already have a policy against students placing servers on the Internet? Hello! When you run P2P, you're running a server!

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:No Servers! by Glowing+Fish · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem with a "no servers" policy is that "server" doesn't really mean anything. A server is a computer that somehow serves information to another computer. Which includes every computer on the internet. There is no actual difference between a "client" and a "server". Even if a client computer is just sending a request to an e-Mail server, it is still serving data.

      And it is not just a pedantic point. While it might seem like a computer that is only sending e-Mails is clearly a client, and not a server, what if you set up your e-Mail client so that it could automatically return e-Mails when it got them? And what if those e-Mails had attachments of files? You've just set yourself up as a "server".

      I don't think there is any good technical or legal definition of what a "client" and "server" computer are.

      --
      Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
    2. Re:No Servers! by Spazmania · · Score: 3, Informative

      And it is not just a pedantic point.

      Yeah, it really is. And your email example is bogus too: if I return those emails, I do it by connecting back to an email server. The email server doesn't connect to me.

      I don't think there is any good technical or legal definition of what a "client" and "server" computer are.

      Try this one: If I can remotely connect to your computer and induce it to perform a non-trivial function at my convenience, its a server.

      We firewall jockeys even have a precise technical definition: If your machine accepts a SYN packet and responds with a SYN/ACK, or if your machine expects to receive the first in a series of UDP packets on a particular port, its a server.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
  25. You can't by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Generally, universities own all rights of way on their campuses. That's certainly the case here. All data, telephone, cable, water, electricity, all provided by the university to all buildings on campus proper, which includes the dorms. Thus you have no option but the provided dorm service. Here that's not a problem for most students, as we aren't dicks about it and provide pretty good service. However if they don't like it, there's nothing they can do. They cannot order other service, it simply is not available.

    What may happen, and should happen to universities that restrict it like this, is they should get sued. There are limits to a public university's ability to compete with and to keep out private companies. This would be more than enough to insist that they need to be let in. Massive problem for the university to make that happen though.

    1. Re:You can't by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's a public institution so there's some fairly strict rules on competition with, and exclusion of, private industry. Since they have a government granted monopoly in many ways, there's rules on how they can use it. Also, there's simple rules relating to housing. A dorm room is your home, and it is protected by the same rules. Police need a search warrant to enter, for example, they can't just go over your head and ask the university. Thus you have rights to get services there, and competitive ones at that. The school can't force you to pay $100/month to use their special phone service any more than an apartment could.

      So if the school is going to severely limit their net access, especially in a way that will affect things you'd normally do (WoW uses BT for updates for example) the students would have a real good anti-competition case.

      Our network people on campus have had to put thought in to this since we don't want it here.

  26. Re:BitTorrent by yakumo.unr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've said it before and I'll say it again.

    Pirates use something because it's the BEST way to do something.

    Why? because they have total freedom to choose the best, because, due to their nature, they don't pay for anything.

    Thus, outlawing something because pirates use it is shooting yourself (or at least technical progress itself) in the foot.

    Sony's views on the xvid codec originally brought this thought to my mind when they prevented sony vegas 5 or 6 from working with it, under that same logic I'd say ban sony vegas itself, I hear it's still incredibly popular with pirates.

    While your at it you'd better do something to shut down Maya, 3dstudio and Photoshop.

  27. Sure, cost effective by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Until the school gets sued, and the courts rule that they have to now allow students to purchase third part services. It's real likely they would in a case like this and it'll be expensive as hell for the university to implement. When you are a public university, you have to be careful what restrictions you implement. Dorms are people's residences and there are rights that come with that. For example you could make a rule saying that employees can enter a room at any time for any reason, and you could give them keys to do so. You'd quickly find out, however, that the police disagreed with that view and those responsible would be in trouble, possibly jail.

    Remember: Nearly all university students are adults, with all the rights it implies. Universities don't get to take those away just because they feel it is convenient. Dorms in many ways have to be treated like apartments: Just because you own them, doesn't mean you have unlimited rights to them.

  28. Mexican universities... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've talked with some people in a couple of colleges in Mexico city. Here in Mexico filesharing isn't prosecuted as much as it is in the US - and yet I've seen bans in filesharing. Reason? Bandwidth. In one particular college, P2P activity covered around 99% of network activity, and webbrowsing became as slow as molasses until filesharing applications (napster at that time) were prohibited.

  29. Monopolizing student's internet by sycomonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While this horribly draconian, stupid, pointless, and a fine example of educational institutions once again bending to the whim of content industry cartels, if they are going to be like that, they should treat dorms like every other apartment building in the world and allow the students to purchase their own internet connection if the ToS for the campus internet isn't acceptable (I would consider the inability to use Bittorrent completely unacceptable and barely worth being called "internet"). Chances are a student at this university will not only not be able to use the internet they pay for properly, it's not likely they'll be able to find an alternative ISP. Which should be illegal.

    --
    --The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
  30. Re:doesn't matter, this will fail in a year or les by Sancho · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First of all, accounting is a pain in the ass. Billing is problematic, and tacking it onto the fee statement tends to get irate parents calling once the bill comes due. "What do you mean Johnny racked up $1000 in bandwidth usage this semester?!"

    Also, dealing with copyright complaints is time-consuming. The requirements in dealing with these notices include not only determining the name of the user who allegedly infringed, but also removing the infringing content. In the case of a university network, this means contacting the student regarding the incident, and telling them to stop sharing.

    Blocking en masse means that word will spread quickly. You'll get a lot of complaints at first, but they'll trickle off once it becomes the norm. I don't necessarily agree with their decision, but it certainly means less work for the university staff in the long run.

  31. Re:Freedom is not about theft by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not to mention the number of legitimate things you might be downloading for educational purposes via BitTorrent (Ubuntu ISO, anyone?). Why haven't you asked your university's IT department to mirror Ubuntu for the university's computer science program?
  32. HTTP tunnel by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    Why not implement quality of service on the network and give priority to web, email and FTP traffic? Because other protocols can impersonate HTTP.
  33. Re:is that legal? by CannonballHead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    would it be legal for them to prevent me from doing so?

    Yes. As legal as it is legal to force you to wear clothing while on their campus, and as legal as preventing you from pointing a gun at someone and shooting. There's no federal or state right to being allowed to use torrents while on university campuses. The prevailing thought among a "me" centered generation, however, is that we have a RIGHT to do whatever we want. Well, do somethings and you get punished; in order to do some things, you might have to move. Want to use torrents? Don't go to Ohio State. Not a complex logical problem.

  34. Paying for bandwidth by JavaCodeGuy · · Score: 2, Informative

    I completely agree with many of the people who have said that the universities should charge for bandwidth. I go to Cornell University and this is in fact what is done here on campus. In the newer dorms you can buy TV connections and therefore get cable internet, or you can use the on campus internet. For anyone who uses the on campus internet service, ResNet, their usage is monitored. We are given 5 GB/month and each additional GB is $1.50. This is only for off campus traffic however so there is still a lot of on campus P2P sharing. But, I think this is a much better step than completely stopping traffic outright. Students are free to do what they want and the university is reimbursed if someone goes crazy with bandwidth.

  35. Re:So drop a Layer-7 filter on it by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That changes nothing. Especially if you want to try to make the argument that if a given percentage of something is used for illegal activity, the whole thing should be outlawed. You'd be surprised at the things you'd be talking about banning in that case. The original argument still stands: Simply get an application layer filter. They are not expensive in relation to other high end networking gear, and it will solve the problem without resorting to a ban. I speak as someone who works at a university with just such systems in place.

    When new technology develops and taxes the available systems, the answer is to work out a better system, not to start banning new technology.

  36. But saving money is about saving upstream by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yes because those Ubuntu and Debian ISO's I downloaded with Azeureus were just so illegal and evil! Why didn't you download them via HTTP from your university IT department's mirror? Unlike multiple students downloading ISOs from the Internet, multiple students downloading from a mirror on the LAN do not make upstream bandwidth unavailable for use by other students.
    1. Re:But saving money is about saving upstream by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why didn't you download them via HTTP from your university IT department's mirror?

      If it's anything like the Linux mirror at my school, you won't find anything released within the last two years on the IT department's servers. It's a decent idea in theory, but in practice I think that between the frequent releases and various distributions it probably doesn't save much bandwidth over individual downloads. Sure, you save a bit when multiple people want the same file; on the other hand, you have to maintain up-to-date versions of all the different versions, even if no one wants that particular release. (Note, however, that I've never actually seen the statistics. I'm basing this on the fact the our IT department didn't bother keeping their mirror up-to-date.)

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  37. Re:Completely untrue! by plasmacutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Without the exclusivity, copyright is worthless... it may as well be public domain.


    ahh the classic black and white approach.

    people have been recording radio and copying tapes for decades, and that "violation of exclusivity" didn't do anything to the bottom line.

    if you want to start defining that as theft, then i say turn about's fair play:

    what did the RIAA companies steal?
    1 - the public domain: they've extended copyright from 17 years to life+70, assuring only quaint anachronisms will be in the public domain from now on.
    2 - competition in the tech sector: their government granted priviledge(not right) of exclusivity did not cover carte blanch regulatory control over all electronics through sneaky leverage of DMCA section 1201. it's been stated over and over again this was unintended, but it only takes one corrupt politician to prevent a law being repealed.
    3 - fair use and individual property/privacy rights: once you've purchased a copy you have the right to do anything with it short of distribution. They have used DRM and the DMCA to stop that.

    so they "stole" 3 times, and we're "stealing" it back.

    theyre reaping what they sow, and i have no sympathy for them as they receive their recompence full circle.
    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  38. Re:Much easier, better solution by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ahh yes, just fall back to the old "child porn" argument. I mean anyone should be willing to do anything to stop child porn! Wrong. Changes nothing. That's a real crime, investigated by the real cops. So what happens is they get a wiretap warrant, because simply having an IP number wouldn't be enough for criminal court. They then get real, admissible, evidence and bust the person. This isn't a problem when you are a legit law enforcement entity trying to track down a real criminal. It is just a problem to an industry association that likes to spray out lawsuit threats, without any good standard of evidentiary checking.

  39. Re:my point is, blocking won't be effective by Sancho · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That can be addressed, too, by requiring proxies to access actual Internet services. Don't like it? Move off-campus and get your own connection, where we won't have to deal with the complaints.

    Since the problem is typically providing the copyrighted material (rather than simply downloading it), this would solve a lot of those problems. People would bitch, and the university would point to the p2p problem and explain that it was their fellow students who caused the lockdown.

    The whole thing irritates me, but there doesn't appear to be an end in sight. You're corresponding with someone who deals with this problem daily, and with 8-10 complaints per day, it's a pain in the ass. I'd love a solution that doesn't involve restricting the students, allows us to maintain reasonably long logs, and doesn't cause our bandwidth to spike all day long. Right now, my best idea is to outsource the dorm network. I don't think my bosses will go for that, though.

  40. Re:Freedom is not about theft by Travelsonic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    IF stealing a car and copying a song are different, why are you saying they are the same? Why are you contradicting yourself? Logically, legally, they are not and for good reason. One = deprival of somebody's property or whatnot without permission and importantly, removing it from their posession. The other you are looking for, copyright infringement, is making a copy of data that violates the applicable restrictions, "rights," without depriving the owner of anything they had before, or of any property, though a breach of rights has occured alone this is different from theft. You also fail to back up your claim with little reasoning more than "it is, it is, it is, repeat argument, repeat argument". I also like how you lump all music downloading as one, broad big bad act, when many musicians would disagree with your stance quite strongly.

    --
    If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
  41. My Experience at OU by chocolatetrumpet · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When I went to OU, I lived in dorms for 3 years. Every room is provided with at least one school computer/monitor/printer, and often more, not to mention that IT would lend you a hub for free if you needed more ports, plus free wifi for students nearly campus-wide, and plenty of empty, air conditioned computer labs (rarely used because most people were using their computers in their rooms or their laptops on wifi... Beowulf, anyone?). So even the poorest student has PLENTY of accessibility.

    Back then, there was a lot of port throttling going on. Trying to serve anything from inside campus was nearly impossible due to the bandwidth being quickly throttled down, even on port 80. As for getting information from outside the campus network, only port 80 worked with any reasonable speed. Other ports were throttled back to the extreme, so much that watching a streaming video was often impossible. If you think academic information only comes in the form of text on a web page, you're mistaken - as a music major, there were tons of video and audio resources made unavailable by draconian bandwidth throttling. And no, I'm not going to send a special request to IT for each instance; that's impractical.

    While it is obvious that many students choose to infringe on copyright law, the true problem I believe is bandwidth usage. College is so expensive that I don't think any student would bat an eye at an extra $100/month in bandwidth expenses, to say the least. That's about the cost of books, though internet access provides enormous academic and social benefits.

    The best way to handle the situation is to provide more than enough bandwidth for academic and social needs, and try students who infringe on copyright law in school court. If they're found guilty, they get kicked out of school for a year.

    Add on to all this that OU subscribes to CDigix for all students - even if you live off campus. This company provides students with tons of cd quality music, entire albums, etc., of not only popular but also obscure artists, and it's completely legal, and many students are very happy with the content it provides.

    Because of the quick pace of technology change, banning p2p seems unwise to me. However, OU is a business, and like any business, it will do whatever the directors feel it needs to in order to make as much money as quickly as possible.

    --
    Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
  42. Re:isp's crying about having to provide what they by dircha · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "and both isp subscribers and students pay big bucks, or is 5 figures a year not enough for them?"

    NO, students do not pay big bucks. Students pay a small fraction of the highly subsidized costs of their education - tuition, facilities, infrastructure, salaries - at a TAXPAYER funded public institution such as Ohio University.

    And I assure you, the taxpayers of Ohio have much better things to do with their money than to foot enormous bandwidth bills so that students can illegally download copyrighted music, movies, and porn faster. I'd like to see them take that argument to the floor of their state legislature.

    "Hay guys, I used to download movies and porn really quick, but now it's slowed to a trickle. Please increase the property tax levy to PIMP MY P2P!"

    That's why people who aren't 20 year old college students don't give two shits about your "plight".

  43. Re:isp's crying about having to provide what they by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    if they cant provide the bandwidth they sold to their customers then they should be sued for fraud, not allowed to strip down and hobble what they advertised as "unlimited".

    The ISPs contend that unlimited meant always-connected, not always maxed-out. I wish they didn't put that bit in the fine print of an ad, but I've seen it there.

    Lesson to learn: don't oversell your bandwidth.

    Bandwidth overselling is one way that that ISPs can give you an affordable rate. I've heard of ISP techs saying that they use as much as a 50:1 oversell rate and only very rarely does anyone notice. They aren't providing a guaranteed bandwidth, for that, they want more money, such as providing a more expensive service such as what they sell to businesses.

  44. Blizzard Downloader by Z34107 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The Blizzard downloader uses a form of the Bittorrent protocol - a broken, noncompliant, single purpose form of the protocol - to download patches. It doesn't actually use a Bittorrent client, or any of the same ports.

    It's the margarine of the 'torrent world.

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
    1. Re:Blizzard Downloader by FiniteElementalist · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes and no. The Blizzard downloader has an http seed to download from in addition to the swarm, in large part due to the fact that not everyone can use P2P with their connection. However, it still has the P2P section which is bittorrent. I'm not sure if this holds true for current version, but I believe that the .torrent file was extracted from older versions of the downloader (through "unofficial" means) and people used other clients to download the patches.

      And what do you mean about ports, are you talking about the tracker's ports? uTorrent has the option to randomize which port it uses for incoming connections, and the Blizzard downloader seems to use port 3724.

  45. Judical Extortion and Free Speech. by twitter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The RIAA almost always has a very strong case.

    No they don't. They have an IP address and an accusation, many of which have been proved false. What they have is the strength of bad laws that allow them to take everything you own or waste it all with court motions, both of which are better called "judicial extortion" than justice.

    1) Sending someone else's creative work to ten thousand of your best friends is not speech.

    Keeping me from publishing my own work on the network I pay for is a violation of free speech.

    If you want to publish your own content via p2p, go ahead and do so on a network that isn't subsidized by the rest of your community.

    First, because the networks are highly regulated all of them are publically subsidized. The network operators may not be living up to their obligations and might have wasted two hundred billion of your dollars, but they are ultimately yours and can be ordered to perform.

    Second, how can I share by P2P when idiot operators block my traffic? I can buy all the hardware and service I want, but I won't be able to use it if it's censored at the receiving end.

    Make no mistake, the big publishers want to make the internet look like cable TV and they are almost there. Unless you fight for your rights, you will play no further part than as a "consumer" and others will continue to own your culture.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  46. Re:isp's crying about having to provide what they by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 2, Informative

    Students pay a small fraction of the highly subsidized costs of their education - tuition, facilities, infrastructure, salaries - at a TAXPAYER funded public institution such as Ohio University.


    You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Of Ohio State's $3.76 billion 2006/2007 budget, only $510 million (13.5%) came from state appropriations.

    Considerably more money ($921 million / 24.5%) came from students. And even more than that came from the hospital that Ohio State operates.

    Is this information hard to find? No! It's right on the Ohio State site, right here.

    The fact is, at Ohio State, students funding is twice as big a factor as state funding. And student funding isn't a "small fraction" - it's nearly a quarter of the entire budget.

    I go to a "state funded" school (University of Colorado at Boulder), but Colorado only contributes 8.1% of the funding for my university. Student fees and tuition contribute 39% of the budget - almost five times as much as state funding.

    I am so sick and tired about this "what are my tax dollars doing" bullshit with regards to educational institutions. There are 26,000 people who attend my university. That's larger than most of the cities in Wyoming.

    If a city offered municipal internet access (as many Slashdot users would like), would it be OK if the city decided that you shouldn't be allowed to use? What if the city prevented other providers from offering services on their premises?

    And I assure you, the taxpayers of Ohio have much better things to do with their money than to foot enormous bandwidth bills so that students can illegally download copyrighted music, movies, and porn faster.


    Here we go again. Because, if someone is using BitTorrent, they must be a dirty criminal. Give me a break. There are so many legitimite uses for P2P that it's not even funny. I downloaded an Ubuntu CD when 7.04 came out using BitTorrent. Public domain and educational materials - including videos - are distributed with BitTorrent. There are even professors on campus who use BitTorrent to distribute video lectures.

    Maybe you are too short-sighted to see the many uses of P2P technology. Guess what? The vast majority of email sent today is spam. That doesn't mean that email isn't a valuable tool.

    I remember when Bill Owens made an incredibly stupid statement about how CU should dismiss a particular professor. Owens didn't seem to understand that universities have a large degree of autonomy - it's not the Governor who selects the Regents, it's the voters. If you don't like what's happening at Ohio State, elect different representatives. But don't go pretending that the State legislature should make policy decisions. Ohio doesn't like it when the Federal Government decides to interfere. Your City Council doesn't like it when the State interferes.
  47. I don't think that's true by EkimAW · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to Wikipedia the .torrent file can be extract from the blizzard downloader and used with another bittorrent client. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blizzard_Downloader If a normal client can exchange data with peers using the Blizzard downloader then how, broken, non-compliant can it be? Also what difference does the port in use have to do with compliance? I use uTorrent and it seems to work fine on whatever port I feel like using.

  48. Re:Bandwith is Already Paid. by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bandwidth isn't unlimited, there's only so much of it. Buying more capacity costs money.

    Faced with more bandwidth demand than supply and no income from bandwidth charges, a University IT department (or an ISP selling "Unlimited Internet") will tend to look at their bandwidth usage and make calls like "60% of our bandwidth usage is coming from these 8 guys running servers. If we just ban servers we won't need to upgrade". So they implement that policy by blocking incoming TCP connections with a firewall and it buys them a couple months - at the horrific hidden cost of turning what was previously a general internet connection into a "consume only" connection. The first google servers were in Larry Paige's dorm room - who knows how college students might take advantage of having a general purpose internet connection...

    Eventually, bandwidth usage will rise again and the IT department will be faced with the same situation: "60% of our bandwidth usage is coming from users doing P2P file sharing". But they can't fix this with a single firewall rule - so they're faced with the decision of buying active traffic shaping hardware or upgrading their bandwidth. Traffic shaping is cheaper than adding capacity, so they do that. They think they're only hurting "a couple students claiming to download Linux distros", but they're really killing ideas like blogtorrent. Basically, this is the same as the server block - it just costs more money in hardware.

    If, instead, the school just charged for bandwidth - perhaps $0.25 for each gig after the first 5 gigs/month - this would play out completely differently. There would be an incentive for users to not outright waste bandwidth, and when it came time to chose between upgrading and degrading the school internet connection it would always be better to upgrade.

    --
    -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.