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The Unauthorized State-Owned Chinese Disneyland
rmnoon writes "Apparently Japanese TV and bloggers have just discovered Disney's theme park in China, where young children can be part of the Magic Kingdom and interact with their favorite characters (like Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, and the Seven Dwarfs). The park's slogan is 'Because Disneyland is Too Far,' and there's even an Epcot-like dome. The only problem? Disney didn't build it, and they didn't authorize it. What's more? It's state-owned!"
Take that Eisner!
Today, Disney. Tomorrow, GM. Get used to it.
..that the war between China and the United States is more of a legislative and economic one fought with dollars and cents. China and the Taliban don't need to take us by force, they simply need to take over our economy. China by manufacturing and selling unauthorized patented and copywritten equipment and now theme parks. We do all of the research and development, and they sell it at cost with no reimbursement, thus destroying our system of innovation, and allowing them to turn the world back into the stone age. The Taliban will take us by causing us to put all of our tax payers dollars into ammo.
Sig: I stole this sig.
Here's a picture from 10 April. Look at #2.
I've heard the Tiananmen Square Tank-Dodgems are really popular, although I think most children go to see the big cuddly cat, Chairman Meow.
Considering Disney has made a big deal about people getting tattoos of Disney characters, I can't imagine this will go over well. Actually, I didn't really believe it until I saw a couple other sources.
Last time I checked, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves was in Grimm's Fairy Tales, a compilation of European folk stories that existed long before Walt Disney or copyright/trademark laws. As the dad of three, it bugs me more than a little when Disney Inc attempts to own childhood fantasy and retroactively copyright/trademark/turn-into-disney-IP all kinds of things that were part of the childhood psyche-scape long before Uncle Walt was even born.
never ask a question you don't want to know the answer to
It *is* a Small World(TM) after all!
In America, Disney owns the government. In Soviet China, the government owns Disney!!!
Or something like that.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
I don't think you understand. China is a country. A large one. Disney is a company, one whose wishes are only enforced because some countries (eg. U.S., European countries) have agreed to use their police and border guards to enforce Disney's wishes. Clearly China doesn't agree to use its police/border guards in that way, and unless a small company has a remote chance of taking on a large country (be it economically or militarily), Disney really doesn't have much say in the matter. (granted, futuristic SciFi novels about corporations having more power than countries are interesting to read, but we're not there yet)
Why is Disney now part of the United States? There are more disneylands around the world than here. They sell more worldwide than in the US. They're an international conglomerate that profits people in many, many countries and many areas.
It's like Ikea. Ikea may have started in Finland, but they employ and enrich a heck of a lot of Americans. Toyota might have started in japan, but the US would take quite a hit if they suddenly wholesale pulled out of here.
The world is not a bunch of governments ruling over these little corporations who spread their tentrils forth for the motherland. Companies superceed governments. Sony exists as much in England and Europe as Japan, and does as much R&D around the world as in their original country. Sega was started by an American in Japan, and whose japanese-sounding name is actually an abbreviation for SErvice and GAmes. We think of Burger King as an amercan company because it started here. In Thailand, they think of Burger King as a Thai company, because the people who work there are Thai, the people who eat there are Thai, the people who make the Thai commercials for Burger King are Thai. Any given piece of electronics is likely to have bits designed in the US, EU, China, India, and many other places.
Companies are not part of a government. They are their own entities in a parallel system.
The ______ Agenda
This is an interesting expression of the saturation of global culture, and how, despite the perceived barriers between easter and western societies, these gaps are slowly dissolving. What i find most interesting is that, as far as i can tell, the park is so popular - legal issues aside, this does imply within the Chinese population some tension between the west and the east has been eased. Although this is perhaps not the best place to find shared cultural values, it is a start, and i think it would do well for Disney not to castigate the government of China, but rather try to reach some sort of compromise or understanding. Unfortunately, being that they are a corporation, it is unlikely that they will see anything but a lawsuit. One can hope, but that hope is likely misplaced.
So, I've heard of bootleg DVDs, bootleg CDs, bootleg Rolex watches... but I think this has to be the world's first bootleg amusement park!
Actually I hope you're already used to it. GM already lost a case - several years ago - where a Chinese manufacturer ripped off, bolt-for-bolt, panel-for-panel, an entire car and then released it to market BEFORE GM did! Brazen as hell. Toyota has also had problems in China for theft and such. I think when foreigners wake up to the fact that there's not really that much money to be made in China they might not be so enthusiastic about jumping in. For instance, huge numbers of cars are made over there, but everyone's killing each other on price. The Chinese are happy about it (they get new factories, trained workers, cars, etc.), but I don't think the foreigners are making any money.
Plus, as I referenced yesterday when commenting on this alarmist post about how the US may soon have "no comparative advantage" - China is not all it's cracked up to be.
Thing is, no one's making money in China, except for a few well-positioned people who can grease the right wheels. Nothing to see here, move along, it's the same old mercantilism and cronyism we find in all non-free markets. The sheer balls of the park manager telling the camerman they "newly invented" the characters ("It's not a mouse, it's a cat with big ears!") is classic.
This guy should be the new Iraqi Information Minister.
--
learnjapanese.poddedcell.net -- Step Up Nihongo, learn Japanese
For how long should disney really have monopoly on Winnie the Pooh for example.
I think it is time that the copyrights from 1920 or so expire for the enjoyment of all.
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
I bet the government built the fake Disney as a way to avoid further international embarrasment related to overcrowding at the real China Disney in Hong Kong.
The crowds swelled beyond belief during the Chinese New Year in 2006. Parents were so distraught that they started throwing their kids over the entry gates. There were some hilarious videos of this floating around out there. Can anyone find a link?
OBL has openly written that they are out to destroy our economy. He wants us in the same boat that Russia was. So far, W. is helping him out.
As to China, they are trying to position themselves to own the world economy and then control countries in manners that they see fit(a MUCH larger USA with a nastier attitude). It is not the stealing of ideas that is doing this. It is the fact that they have tied their money to our money at a fixed rate. If it was allowed to float, then it would have increased in a big way by now. Others have dredged up the typical neo-con argument that this helps the economy. And for a short-term, they are correct. But it destroys the manufacturing (read tax) base. Another argument is that China holds a huge amount of our cash. And they will laugh if it falls, so long as they are in control. In the past, America had large natural resources to fall in during those times. Not anymore. What this means is that when China wants to pull the rug on us, they will be in control. And that is going to happen in about another 15 years (or less).
W.'s going to argue about the copyright and patents is almost akin to chargin Charlie Manson with litter AND making a big deal of it. It totally ignores the real problems.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Of course, the US government is more or less controlled by companies, including Disney. Thus the WTO complaint mentioned in the article. It'll be interesting to see if the US government is willing to actually do anything serious over this though.
I presume you're talking about "them" calling "us" and saying "we've decided not to buy your government-issued debt anymore." Problem is, what would they invest their 1 trillion in government funds in then? It's not like there are that many - if any - safer alternatives? Euro bonds? Uhhh ... what was that long-term growth rate again? Yen? yeah right, the Chinese? Swiss Francs? Uhh ... sure it's a hard currency, but how much of it can you liquidate when you need to? Dollars are still the best place to park savings.
Also, China exports vast quantities to the US - they'd never cause our economy to "crash" if they could help it. It would create massive social unrest over there (and they can barely keep a cap on what they've got happening even right now). China's going to have many, many significant, huge, social problems in the mid-term. Their "one country, two systems" thing is inherently unstable and will fail. If China ever copies the fine pre-handover Hong Kong example which the British left the world, then move over U.S., because we're going to get trounced. In the meantime, China will simply remain a cheap place to manufacture lower-technology goods. I include computers and HDTVs in the "lower-technology goods" category. They've got far to much to lose to damage us that way.
But one of the above posters is totally correct: The real threat - the one thing that could bring us down - is ourselves. FDR was right about fear. If the US goes down, it'll be because we did it to ourselves.
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for more on this topic, check yesterday's post.
-- Step Up Nihongo (learnjapanese.poddedcell.net)
Don't hold your breath.
The United States is so dependent on cheap crap made in China it's not even funny. Take a look around your house and look for "Made in China". There's a good chance you have more stuff made in China than made in all other countries combined. Any serious trade embargos against China would end up hurting us a whole lot more than it would hurt them.
And don't even think about war. China has nukes. Not to mention they can have more people in their army than the U.S. has people. And then there's the fact we're already spread pretty thin in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Maybe not
Get used to it.
Nothing a good, structured tax/tariff structure can't correct with regards to allowing shoddy imports to undercut quality. The idea is to reverse the damage done by that region of the world to our domestic industries (who seem to have done better in terms of quality when allowed to build domestic). Just enough that companies get the hint not to use countries like Mexico and regions of the world such as Asia to undercut domestic labor- which would be used as a retraining fund.
Today, Disney. Today, GM
What do you expect from a part of the world that seems to have forgotten quality, but how to become a large black hole for industries of other regions of the world? Certainly you cannot expect quality for a place like China.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
I don't know what to do when standard anti-socialism and anti-IP /. dogma clash. Who's side are we supposed to be on on this one.
...and unless a small company has a remote chance of taking on a large country (be it economically or militarily), Disney really doesn't have much say in the matter.And this would be a good reason why I laugh at the so called International Court systems. If an American company manages to make a profit through ANY type of help by the government everyone in the world screams. China blatantly rips off a corporation and "nothing can be done." WTF? If the WTO and other organizations are that weak, why the HELL to we keep kowtowing to every stupid little demand they toss our way.
This would be a good time for America to slap huge tariffs on all Chinese products until this type of blatant crap is stopped. If Wallyworld has to pay $500 for that cheaply made American flag, I'm sure they'll find someone else to make them than the Chinese.
Let's just say "Screw China." They've never been our friends and they are working on destroying us economically and eventually politically. That's why they try to buy our politicians. How come everyone gets upset when the US tries to influence an election somewhere else (That's IMPERIALISM!) But when they try to buy the Clinton White House, no one says crap about it. How come THAT isn't Imperialism? Oh, cause they're a Communist country why they couldn't POSSIBLY have any Imperialist plans.
Sigh... Sorry... Button pushed...
- No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades really cramps his style.
My feeling is that any economy built upon intellectual property is a house of cards. Sooner or later, someone just decides not to play. They simply declare themselves as rich as you are. It's like a bubble market: it only has value as long as everyone buys into the delusion that it has value ... then it goes "pop!".
If a country with all the manufacturing infrastructure and a country with all the legal IP rights to that tech have a conflict, is there really any doubt who wins?
There is nothing legally wrong with the Chinese government doing this; they're a sovereign country, they get to decide how much copyright and trademark law they want to have. Now, the US government can say "poor ol' Disney is suffering, we'd like you to stop this, so let's make a deal". But arguments like "it's not right" aren't going to be very convincing.
They're particularly unconvincing given that, by all rights, Mickey Mouse ought to be in the public domain by now. Other nations can have completely reasonable copyright terms and Mickey Mouse would still be in the public domain. It's the US that's unusual and unreasonable by having protected Mickey Mouse for another couple of decades through the Sonny Bono copyright extension act.
The public domain and limited copyright terms, two basic American rights, have been under attack in the US for the past century, and they have been replaced, effectively, with unlimited ownership of intellectual property. That's the real problem we need to address because that's what's really un-American.
Hmm, most Disney characters are based on stories that have been in the public domain for centuries and the ones they did invent, should have been in the public domain decades ago.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
What this means is that when China wants to pull the rug on us, they will be in control. And that is going to happen in about another 15 years (or less).
I doubt it. If there is one good thing that king jr has done in his utterly fucked up administration, is convice the world at large that we are armed and irrational. While china COULD try to screw over the reigning military superpower, is it really wise to poke a stick at the mad dog with all the nukes and carriers? 15 years from now, we might be poorer, but will will still have lots of bombs and missiles. No, they will continue to grow themselves in an ecenomic fashion. They are really a capitalist autocracy, as opposed to anything communist these days.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
In Communist China,..State runs the toons :)
Eclipse PDE and Me
The Shijinshan Amusement Park was built more than 20 years ago. Not sure if the PRC has established diplomatic ties with USA yet, yet alone intellectual property treaties. Also, twenty years ago there was practically not such thing as "intellectual property" in China (ah, the good old days). There was a very famous brand of candy from Shanghai named "Mickymouse", with Disney's Mickymouse as its logo. Later, when China opened its market to the West, Disney realized that in China, the "Mickymouse" trademark was legally owned by the candy factory, so it paid big money and brought it back. It was reported in the newspaper that many Chinese children cried that day as their beloved "Mickymouse" candy was no more (oh, the evil Americans)...
You cannot hoodwink them. They have seen a better margin and a better chance of exploitation. The only thing that can stop a publically listed business from following the scent trail of higher profit in the name of an abstract concept is nuking the stock market. After all it is what drives this in the first place.
The reasons for Chinese imports being cheap are twofold - complete lack of environmental control and use of slave labour. Both can be dealt with by putting the relevant legal frameworks in place.
The framework for the environmental is very similar to the one established for food imports. All it requires is application to all goods. No exemptions. Licensing of importers and mandatory certification. Same as for food.
The labour is actually a comparatively minor addition compared to the rest as far as modern manufacturing is concerned. Badly payed and badly treated labour delivers bad quality product (if that was not the case we would have still be owning slaves like the ancient egyptians).
Once the primary cost factor which is the environment is put on equal footing you can compete with Chinese on quality, efficiency and innovation. Just look at the Wiki page of the same Cheery motors. They do not have any of their own R&D. If it was not for European R&D (and to lesser extent american R&D) they would be dead straight away. Add to that mandatory environmental control to which European (and American) businesses are subjected on a day to day basis and they will fade into their internal market for the next century.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Here's the official English web page for the park:a sp
http://www.bs-amusement-park.com/ChinaIn/about-e.
To be honest, it wouldn't have been to hard to "discover" the park. It's connected to the Beijing subway, it's been open since 1986, and it's rated as a AAAA tourist attraction.
I think it is time that the copyrights from 1920 or so expire for the enjoyment of all.
Yeah, not bloody likely. Disney is the reason no copyright will ever expire again. Since they have "property" that would expire once the latest copyright extension they purchased rolls around, they have no choice but to purchase another one.
And why should these things expire? Since it's your "intellectual property", shouldn't it be yours forever? And when "you" are a company, "forever" can actually mean forever.
sic transit gloria mundi
When I was living in Taiwan, which isn't China but it's close enough, I encountered this sort of thing constantly. It permeates Chinese culture in ways few can imagine. Hell, I think it's just a fact of life all throughout Asia, it's almost the same in Korea, and common Japan, although it's a little more subtle there. It really is just a way of life.
Some shop opens up somewhere selling a particular kind of desert and becomes successful. Within 6 months there are maybe a dozen to be found within that city. Someone designs a particularly striking advertisement and it's only a matter of time because imitators appear. A news agency updates their look and almost over night everyone else does to.
You see it in small things too. My wife corresponds with an online community of Taiwanese living in the States. She has a blog, as many do. She has a fairly distinctive writing style which suits her personality. Inevitably someone came along and started copying her writing style. It got to a point where this particular girl started writing about the very same things my wife had written about previously.
China adds yet another dimension to this absurdity. Most people there are poor. We hear all this talk about the booming economy, the burgeoning middle class and all that. But the fact is that most Chinese are poor. And I mean living in poverty to a point that the so-called poor in the US haven't experienced. What does this mean? They can't afford all the shiny, impressive and absurdly expensive products made by foreign companies. So what have some enterprising Chinese done? They've made cheap, inexpensive knockoffs. Most are pure garbage, but they cost next to nothing and provide some level of the functionality found in the expensive foreign product. Some people may even be fooled into thinking they've purchased the real thing.
This sort of thing used to really frustrate me. Especially when it affect my work directly. At the time I'd think about how great it was that no one could get away with this sort of thing in the US.
But then I realized two things. First, it does happen in the US. Companies here just happen to be more careful about how they go about it. Look at Hollywood, and worse, look at the game industry. It's only logical that when people see something that has led to success they try to emulate it. The easiest way to enjoy some of that success is to resort to copying.
This leads me to the second thing I realized. I've come to think this is a good thing, within limits of course. There's a point at which a company or an individual has just gone too far and measures need to be taken.
Nevertheless, this sort of thing keeps innovators on their toes. It forces them to be competitive. Like I mentioned earlier, copying is a way of life in Asia. It means that people aren't sitting trying to figure out how to go about suing the offending party. They aren't whining to the government that someone has just ripped them off. Instead, their moving on to something else. In some cases, as it was with us, the frame of mind is one of trying to raise the bar further, to stand out from the imitators.
The other advantage here is that the imitators are slowly improving their own skill sets. They're being exposed to new ideas and learning from them, even if they don't realize it at the time. But it's something, over a long period of time that I believe leads to real progress.
The reality is that in most cases the imitations will never be anywhere near as good as the originals. So the ones actually producing something unique will always have the advantage. So as long as they don't get lazy they should be fine. If their in a situation where they're being seriously threatened by those copying it's almost certain they're doing something wrong.
I'm not suggesting a free-for-all where people can copy with impunity. Patents and copyrights are reasonable to a certain extent. I just feel that in some cases things have gotten out of hand. A real free market shouldn't have the absurd level of protectionism some companies seem to expect.
Top Ten Changes At China's "Disneyland":
10: Every conceivable surface is painted red.
9: Skeletons, vampires, and other scary images replaced with pictures of famous American capitalists.
8: The "Mickey Mouseketeer Club" replaced with "Children Of The Chinese Communist Party"
7: Replaced the cars in "Autopia" with T-72 tanks
6: "Rocketship" ride has been replaced with "Nuclear Missile" ride.
5: Replaced the pirates in "Pirates Of The Caribbean" with American Capitalists.
4: Replaced mechanical puppets in "It's A Small World" with brainwashed dissidents singing at bayonet point.
3: Inserted subliminal propaganda messages into the "Tiki Hut" song.
2: Renamed Disnyland restaurant "Mickey Mao's"
1: Doubled the MSG content of the corndogs.
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Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
What the hell is futuristic about this? We have been there for a long time!!
Who the hell do you think conquered India? The British? Well, yes, I grant you they were British, but they sure as hell weren't the British Government. It was the British East India Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plassey), who were big enough at the time to make Ford, Coca Cola and Microsoft look like a crocked hat.
Note in the battle mentioned above, John Company fought against the Indian Princes and the French East India Company.
The equivalent today would be Halliburton fighting in Iraq against the Iraquis and Shell.
Modding this up would introduce Americans to a bit of history!!
I believe Oxford owns the copyright to the King James Version. America pretty much ignored that and it is in the public domain in this country. That would probably be the biggest IP disrespect in the history of mankind.
I think IP respect between countries is necessary for economic ties between countries and for the greater good, but a country doesn't have to abide by another country's laws if they don't want to. However, agreeing to being in the WTO may change responsibilities.
The WTO did not exist in the 1700's when we chucked the copyright of the KJV.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The reason for their extemely low prices is simple supply and demand. Labor is dead-cheap because there is so much of it. I got a beautiful painting about an hour outside of Guangzhou for about a buck twenty five. The painting is a very large, rougly seven-feet wide one. For the record, the painter was not a slave. It's just that that's the price he can charge, since there were literally thousands of others I could have gone to.
Now, I'm not saying that there isn't any slave labor in China. I have no idea; there probably are some instances of it, just like there probably are instances of it here in the US. But it is simply not what drives their economy. It's not even remotely related to their success as an economy.
Pollution is another matter. I've never been to a traditionally smoggy city in the US (say, Houston or LA) but Guangzhou had a blanket of smog a couple hundred feet above the surface at all times... I can actually remember the air being "heavy." It was a releif to get out to countryside, so we could see the sun again.
groupthink: It's good for self-esteem.
No.
But I have been to plenty of places with similar labour costs. In fact, I have lived in one for a while.
While what you are telling is correct for a painting, textiles and other "light industry", labour is only a minor part of the BOM for an heavy industrial product like a car, bicycle or modern toys. Environmental control on the other side is. It may account for 40%+ of the costs of plastics, 30%+ of the costs of metals (those pesky sulfur emissions controls, water quality control, cleanup of land destroyed by open mining, etc), 70%+ for some paints and coatings, 100%+ for some electronic components and so on.
Let's apply that to a pedal cycle - you have around 1 hour labour costs during initial assembly (everything including tires and all components), rest is BOM. The BOM difference between Chinese plastics, metal, tires, etc and _fully_ western Europe makes due to environmental regulations and mandatory acceptance for recycling for a bicycle can be close to 100 pounds (200$) at the moment. Compared to that the labour cost difference is negligible. If we look at any other product that makes heavy use of metal or plastics we get roughly the same proportions.
Further to this, if we look back at "light industry" like clothing the difference in quality between sweatshop labour and labour working in better conditions is also quite apparent. Compare a shirt made in China with one done in Bangladesh, Cambodja or Turkey. The quality difference is striking and these can nowdays often compete on quality alone (if the market is not perverted by "branding").
If China is left to compete on price of labour alone with the BOM costs equalized by mandatory environmental controls it will lose straight away to everyone else on quality alone.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Yes.
Say what you will about the CIA, but their World Factbook rocks. Here is a table with countries according to GDP growth.
China is 12th place (after 11 very small economies) with a 10.5% GDP growth rate.
The US is in 148th place, with a 3.4% growth rate.
But even without taking the relative growth rates into account, China is already too close to the US i size to make economic warfare a realistic option. Washington can huff and puff and maybe make some symbolic gestures, but that's about it when it comes to China.
Or Europe, for that matter, should it ever come to that. See this table. And if you live in the US, please persuade your political leaders never to threaten anybody with economic santions if they haven't read it too. :)
Christian Engström, Former Member of the European Parliament 2009-2014 for The Pirate Party, Sweden
It's the Beijing Shijingshan Amusement Park
t ml
. html
Here's the official website
http://www.bs-amusement-park.com/
Epcot dome
http://www.bs-amusement-park.com/ChinaIn/huanle.h
Castle
http://www.bs-amusement-park.com/ChinaIn/huanle-b
If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_Taitei
And don't forget that this was not an isolated example.
Both the Dutch and British East India Companies issued their own coins - about as much of an indication of sovereignty as there is.
The Hudson Bay Company used to be a slightly larger land owner than it is now - basically half of North America, including big chunks of what is now the US.
The history of these companies is fascinating, check it out some time.
Zapsavings: Simply calculate how much energy efficient bulb
Most interviews I read with insiders (on and off the record) said that no one consciously copied Kimba, but some of the animators quickly realised they were and began making jokes about it in the office. The better question is "Was there corporate mal intent?" I haven't ready any indication there was, and that the animators and writers may have consciously or unconsciously borrowed from Simba putting Disney in an awkward situation.
Straight Dope has the best answer to this (they talked to the animators no longer working for Disney):
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a991224.html
The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
Disclaimer: My wife is a purchaser for a fashion conglomerate, and I have somewhat of an interest in the outsourcing of fashion manufacturing.
If you are implying that Chinese textiles are inferior to those of Bangladesh, Cambodia, or Turkey, then you are incorrect. These places that you mention, often along with the Philippines, India, and Vietnam are contracted for lower-end fashion. (Although Turkey does manufacture very high-quality leather goods). Higher-end fashion now mostly manufacturers in China or Hong Kong (for even higher-end fashion). The quality has improved so much that higher-end fashions have no problems moving their base of manufacturing to China. Sure - China still makes crappy $2 socks for Walmart, but it also makes that $800 cocktail gown at BCBG. The move upwards has a lot to do with Vietnam going into WTO and upping its textiles quotas for the U.S.
What you have said about Chinese textiles was true 5-7 years ago. Not anymore. They no longer don't exclusively make cheap stuff.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.