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Dark Matter Stars in the Early Universe?

OriginalArlen writes "UniverseToday reports new research which suggests dark matter could have condensed to form 'dark stars' in the early universe. These stars would have been very massive and burned very slowly, fueled by non-fusion reactions, they could still be with us. Astronomers hope to better constrain theories of early galaxy and star formation with observations of gravitational lensing events caused by these ghosts of the primordial universe."

168 comments

  1. Packing material by snoyberg · · Score: 3, Funny

    Of course, that's where all of our packing material comes from.

    --
    Thank God for evolution.
  2. Nothing for you to see here. Please move along. by Laebshade · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Nothing for you to see here. Please move along."

    Indeed.

    Hmm... what if we discover a star like the one Asimov described in Nemesis? Yes, I know it wasn't a dark matter star, but they didn't see it, either.

  3. Dark Star by mknewman · · Score: 3, Funny

    So I guess John Carpenter created the universe? http://imdb.com/title/tt0069945/

    1. Re:Dark Star by stoolpigeon · · Score: 2

      i don't know about dark matter - but that was a good flick. a staple of the sci-fi theater on saturday morning when i was a kid.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    2. Re:Dark Star by marcello_dl · · Score: 2, Funny

      I recalled what crosby stills nash and young created a couple years later, too.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    3. Re:Dark Star by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Nope. Scientist confirms that Dark Stars was Lone Starr's Dad instead of Dark Helmet. No comment from Miss Universe on how that happen.

    4. Re:Dark Star by OriginalArlen · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Well goshdarnheckitall - Scuttlebmonkey chop()d my final sentence! My submission originally ended:

      No word yet from John Carpenter on the prospect of solipsistic thermostellar bombs...

      So, hey thanks for posting my submission, man, but enough with the sub-editing, already! Don't I got no artistic rights here? Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Don't give me any of that intelligent life crap... this is Slashdot. Just give me something I can troll. Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!!!

      E_TOO_MUCH_PYTHON

      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    5. Re:Dark Star by sortius_nod · · Score: 0

      are you mad? It may be low budget, but that doesn't make it good... worst story & premis ever.

      It was such a painfully boring movie it's not funny...

    6. Re:Dark Star by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      are you mad?
      i guess i could be - but if so, i'm really the last person qualified to answer the question.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
  4. Jerry Garcia Physics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    The Grateful Dead predicted the existence of Dark Stars about 30 years ago.

  5. interesting by wizardforce · · Score: 2, Interesting

    TFA brings up a good point, all this dark matter had to have condensed into big star-like masses and should still be around but it wouldn't just be pure dark matter there would be hydrogen and helium too and on the other hand stars like our sun should have dark matter in them too so where is it? if this dark matter is indeed doiung what they say why the heck heven't we detected it in some way?

    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    1. Re:interesting by Yetihehe · · Score: 1

      Because it's dark and you can't see it (or detect it). It only interacts with our matter through gravity, but we don't have the precision instruments to detect it.

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    2. Re:interesting by MrFlibbs · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This aspect of dark matter has always been troubling. If dark matter reacts gravitationally with ordinary matter, shouldn't we find the two combined within some sort of object? Everyone talks about how dark matter explains galactic rotation and cluster movement, but no one seems to say anything about what happens when you mix them. Why wouldn't dark matter collapse into a stellar interior along with the ordinary matter? How would this affect the nuclear processes within the star?

      Why would there be "stars" made entirely of dark matter, anyway? What keeps ordinary matter from falling in?

    3. Re:interesting by perturbed1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      As a matter of fact, there are several experiments looking for dark matter from the sun. Yes, there could be some dark matter loosely bound to the sun's gravitational potential. I can not give a comprehensive list here but a good example is CAST . There are other dark matter experiments which may be sensitive to a signal from the sun such as CRESST and CDMS.

    4. Re:interesting by king-manic · · Score: 2, Informative

      dark matter is only special in that we can't "see" it. It not luminous or outputs so little energy that we don't have the equipment to detect it. It may not be anything more special then normal matter that doesn't glow. Perhaps it's just really low albedo matter like black dust.

      There are theories about it being either this or special exotic particles or a mix of both. Your assuming it's all exotic particles.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    5. Re:interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also they say "Particles of dark matter compressed together began to annihilate, generating massive amounts of heat, and overwhelming this molecular hydrogen cooling mechanism. Hydrogen fusion was halted, and a new stellar phase - a "dark star" - began. Massive balls of hydrogen and helium powered by dark matter annihilation, instead of nuclear fusion."

      We don't even know what dark matter is. How the hell do they know it annihilates itself when compressed?

    6. Re:interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basically the whole point of the Big Bang theory is that the amount of matter and energy in the Universe is = 0

      That means for every gram of matter there is a gram of antimatter to offset it. When the two combine they go back to 0. Matter falls into antimatter and vice versa and they cancel each other out. Now that the universe is mature you don't see it anymore since all the matter and antimatter are supposedly far enough away from each other that they don't annihilate anymore. Or at least often.

      Remember: It's still a theory. And as such you either keep proving parts of it or you go back to square one.

    7. Re:interesting by teabaggs · · Score: 1

      There is an interesting article that offers an explanation into this idea at physicswebhereas well as offers ideas into the investigation of dark matter via some 'fifth force'

    8. Re:interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Not quite. You are misunderstanding the theory, which says total energy of the universe = 0. Matter and antimatter are both very compacted forms of energy. You can easily prove this by allowing matter and antimatter to meet. What do you get when this happens? Energy equal to the net mass of antimatter and matter. Which means, with respect to energy balance of the universe, matter and antimatter do not cancel each other out, the belong on 'same side' of the energy balance equation.

    9. Re:interesting by dynamo52 · · Score: 2, Informative

      That is incorrect

      The theory is that immediately after the big bang, matter and antimatter began to annihilate. The asymmetry is explained partially through CP-Violation. There are other theories such as axions (which could be a form of dark matter) that may explain the remainder of the asymmetry.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    10. Re:interesting by LionMage · · Score: 4, Informative
      Pity there's no "-1 Factually Wrong" moderation.

      The idea that the net sum product of the Big Bang is 0 (zero) mass and energy is old, and has been discarded for better theories.

      That means for every gram of matter there is a gram of antimatter to offset it. When the two combine they go back to 0. Matter falls into antimatter and vice versa and they cancel each other out.

      Except that's not exactly right. Matter and antimatter annihilate, true, but they produce energy as the product of that annihilation. So it's not exactly a zero-sum-game as you seem to think. You may be getting confused by vacuum flux (a real phenomenon that has been experimentally observed), in which pairs of virtual particles and anti-particles are spontaneously created in a vacuum, only to disappear without a trace when they collide again. In that case, you end up with nothing (unless you're talking about a region of space arbitrarily close to the event horizon of a black hole -- that's how Hawking radiation works).

      Now that the universe is mature you don't see it anymore since all the matter and antimatter are supposedly far enough away from each other that they don't annihilate anymore. Or at least often.

      Try "never." The current standard model in cosmology posits that matter and antimatter were created in nearly equal quantities which condensed out of the energy of the Big Bang. The resultant mass reacted with itself, and the energy produced by these annihilations generated the next wave of particle creation. Eventually, a very slight bias in the production of matter vs. antimatter led to the overwhelming dominance of "normal" baryonic matter in the visible universe.

      The idea that there are vast pockets of antimatter out there in the universe has been generally discarded. As for why there was a bias toward "normal" matter and against antimatter, I don't think that has ever been adequately explained, although there are several competing theories. It's interesting to note that in quantum mechanics, you can model antimatter interactions as a sort of time-reversal of matter interactions -- leading to the bizarre notion that antimatter is just normal matter that's "backwards" in time. Perhaps entropy provided enough of a "time arrow" to force a bias in the early universe's composition. (Or, as I sometimes muse, there might be some as-yet-unknown force that is responsible for breaking symmetry in time, and entropy as we understand it is just a product of this force.)

      The "antimatter is just matter backwards in time" concept was kind of a shocker to me, taking quantum mechanics classes as a college undergrad. I'd been introduced to the concept by a story or novella that was published in Analog, and had dismissed the idea as hokey... and then one day, I cracked open one of my textbooks and saw a weird little diagram, and asked why there was an electron moving backwards in the time dimension, to which the professor responded, "That's a positron."
    11. Re:interesting by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 1

      Could you point me to a paper on this? What is the negative matter and energy that balances the matter and energy known (visible) universe?

      --
      0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
    12. Re:interesting by chreekat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "It may not be anything more special then normal matter that doesn't glow. "

      But that's just the thing. In some areas of space, say near a star or a galactic core, so much energy is blasting through space that no "normal matter" could not be luminescent. And yet, something in that area, that is *not* luminescent, is exerting a gravitational force.

    13. Re:interesting by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Sure. It's likely that we have dark matter constantly moving through us. But it's weakly interacting, so it doesn't make itself known very often. Sounds far fetched? We know of particles like that, called neutrinos. They're constantly streaming through you without interacting. They're detected by putting the detectors as deep in a mine as you can to shield out anything that's NOT weakly interacting.

      Several experiments are going on at the moment to detect dark matter the same way.

    14. Re:interesting by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      We do actually. Several dark matter observatories have been set up. They need LOTS of data though, because you basically have to wait until a dark matter particle makes a direct hit on an atomic nucleus.

    15. Re:interesting by dido · · Score: 1

      Dark matter is special in that it is capable of interacting with other matter generally only via either the weak nuclear force or gravity. These types of matter cannot interact via electromagnetism, meaning they really can't radiate any form of light, and given that the weak and gravitational interactions are so, ahem, weak, they are extremely difficult to detect, and their interactions with baryonic matter such as stars, planets, and you and me is extremely limited, and their interactions correspondingly feeble. Dark matter of some kind falling into a star or some similar object would probably influence the nuclear reactions only very slightly. Neutrinos are one example of dark matter, and they are the only type that has ever been directly observed to date. It would take lead shielding one light year thick to block off half of the neutrinos emitted by the sun. That should give you an idea of the level of interaction that dark matter has with "ordinary" matter such as that which makes up you and me (actually, it is "ordinary" baryonic matter which is actually extraordinary in the universe, given that dark matter probably makes up at least 85% of the matter in the universe!)

      --
      Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
    16. Re:interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe if you continued to look at your textbooks you'd see that antimatter isn't dark matter.

    17. Re:interesting by andy314159pi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Look at the bottom of this link. Dark matter and antimatter are two separate issues. Antimatter was verified with the observation of the positron that you mention in the 1930's and the existence of antimatter hasn't really been debated since then. Dark matter is something totally different... it's existence is suggested by astrophysical data and not by experimental particle physics. There is no theoretical understanding of dark matter. It's all suggested by observation. Of course, that's the way science is supposed to work, but in a few cases theoretical understanding preceded observation, as was the case with antimatter.

    18. Re:interesting by perturbed1 · · Score: 1

      True. But they dont try to detect it through its gravitational effect, but rather through its proposed weak interactions, as opposed to gravity as the parent would suggest. To detect the effect of one dark matter particle through its gravitational influence is probably next to impossible... but then again, who knows...

    19. Re:interesting by Dan+Hayes · · Score: 1

      The graviational potential energy is expressed as a negative value, which exactly balances the positive value of all of the mass and energy in the Universe. Hence overall, the total energy sums to zero.

    20. Re:interesting by Zoolander · · Score: 1

      Holy didn't read the post carefully, Batman!

      --
      Meep.
    21. Re:interesting by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      If dark matter reacts gravitationally with ordinary matter, shouldn't we find the two combined within some sort of object?

      Not necessarily. Only if (a) there is enough of it around our part of the galaxy to detect, (b) it's possible to detect directly, and (c) it tends to stay around inside objects. Most dark matter would have to be in a spherical halo surrounding our galaxy, not in its disk. It doesn't interact strongly with other matter, so it would tend to pass right through instead of getting stuck inside a rock or something, and similarly passes right through detectors easily without triggering them. (Think of neutrinos and how hard they are to detect.) There might be some trapped gravitationally at the center of the Sun, but for obvious reasons it's hard to check. Nevertheless, there are experiments which attempt to detect dark matter (or its decay products) directly. They might turn up something, but they might not — even if dark matter exists, there are many reasons to believe that it should be very hard to detect.

      Why would there be "stars" made entirely of dark matter, anyway? What keeps ordinary matter from falling in?

      There probably would be some ordinary matter, but they would form from regions of space that primarily consist of dark matter.

    22. Re:interesting by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      That would be like trying to detect the gravitational interaction of a mid sized atom. I don't think that would be much fun.

      On the other hand, I wonder if we'll ever be able to make a gravity wave detector sensitive enough to detect dark matter. There's a lot of it, but it's pretty diffuse.

  6. Missing: Anything Provable by RobertB-DC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole article sounds like a solution in search of a problem. It talks about "Dark Matter" as though the mysterious substance's properties were well-defined, even going as far as positing stars fuelled by "dark matter annihilation, instead of nuclear fusion". And then TFA says "If these dark stars are stable enough, its possible that they could still exist today".

    I propose that dark matter is actually composed of jellybeans and M&M's, and that the first massive objects were stars fuelled by the crushing force of the crunchy shells of the M&Ms piercing the relatively soft outer coating of the jellybeans. Gravitational separation eventually turned the masses into giant Cadbury Creme Eggs.

    Other than being completely silly, am I making any fewer wild guesses than the Dark Matter Annihilation folks?

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
    1. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dark matter, phlogiston, aether ... not too much to differentiate the lot.

    2. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by CaptainPatent · · Score: 1

      I actually kind of took the same viewpoint after reading TFA. Granted there may have been quite a bit of scientific research that went into it at some point. I just take issue when the article says things like

      A team of researchers is proposing that.... or

      that's what astronomers commonly believe. because we don't know about the research, the level of credibility or even the number of people "astronomers" encompasses (quotes like that sometimes mean two astronomers they talked to when writing the article.)

      With that aside I do get the feel that TFA is more assumption than science. If anyone can link the actual research done I'd love to see it

      --
      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
    3. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's not insightful. It's ignorant. While the article is speculative, it does point to work that can be done to create testable predictions. But why is it the sad, incredulous claim, and not insightful? It's the belief that a darkroom should glow when observed, before a lightswitch is engaged to provide illumination. More over, neutrinos, dark matter. Any matter not illuminated by electro magnetic radiation, also dark matter. And measures of the influence of gravity, neatly revealed by more cooperative objects like stars (in their motion), point strongly to dark matter and away from other theories. Given the availability of this information, it's the willful embrace of ignorance, and that's stupid and a small tragedy in it's own right.

    4. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by Excelcia · · Score: 1

      Nobody knows for sure there is dark matter. All dark matter is is the empty space in current theories. It's a placeholder for observations that can't be explained any better. We don't know why galaxies behave like they do, so we'll just invent a substance that takes the place of something that might make them do what we think we're seeing them do. We don't know if dark matter exists, so let's make it into stars? I'm in agreement here, this sounds like someone needed something to publish or perish.

      SETI has more credibility than this - at least we know for a fact that one planet has life.

    5. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by OriginalArlen · · Score: 4, Funny

      I propose that dark matter is actually composed of jellybeans and M&M's, and that the first massive objects were stars fuelled by the crushing force of the crunchy shells of the M&Ms piercing the relatively soft outer coating of the jellybeans. Gravitational separation eventually turned the masses into giant Cadbury Creme Eggs. Now you're just being silly. Imagine sphere with a radius of 1 AU (the size of earth's orbit, remember!) composed of milk chocolate and "fondant filling". The enormous pressures in the core would crush the crude, macroscopic proteins in the chocolate into their component molecules, then heat and pressure would eventually overwhlem the degeneracy pressure, causing the entire gooey mass to break down into a seething mass of elementary particles. This event also causes observable evidence, in the form of a huge burst of massless particles accelerated to relativistic velocities. These are called tic-tacs.
      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    6. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by OriginalArlen · · Score: 1

      (lame to reply to my own post, my apologies) I should have added that some theories suggest that traditional white minty tic-tacs can spontaneously flip state into orange or lime flavoured particles. None of these confectionary items interact with normal baryonic matter; in fact, billions of invisible tic-tacs are streaming through your body this very second. No such state changes have ever been directly observed, although a million-litre capacity corner CTN corner shop filled with sensitive CCTV detectors keeps watch for the tell-tale flash of light caused by a tic-tac changing state, from deep in a Uranium mine beneath a filling station on the A40.

      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    7. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by megaditto · · Score: 4, Informative

      this sounds like someone needed something to publish or perish.

      An Arxiv paper doesn't really "count" as a publication for most purposes and certainly will not prevent you from "perishing" (that's what the peer-reviewed scientific journals are for).

      Publishing in Arxiv is more like posting to a blog or slashdot where you semi-formally share your ideas and try to start up a discussion on the topic of interest to you.

      Of course, some of the papers over there ended up being darn important.
      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    8. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by macraig · · Score: 1

      What you described is a well-known and provable phenomenon in its own right: science as religion.

      Sometimes even scientists make stuff up simply because it lets them sleep easier at night. Making stuff up as simple THEORIES to be challenged is fine, but to become dogmatic about it, as this article suggests some have already become dogmatic about dark matter, is not part of the Scientific Method and process.

    9. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by Iron+Condor · · Score: 1

      dark matter, phlogiston, aether ... not too much to differentiate the lot.

      Lessee:

      dark matter - effects observed
      phlogiston, aether - effects not observed

      That wasn't no hard.

      --
      We're all born with nothing.
      If you die in debt, you're ahead.
    10. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by Ortega-Starfire · · Score: 1

      Actually, Dark Matter is increasing in this galaxy, and will reach a peak point in the Year 2012. When the Dark Tide peaks, the assumption is that everything will hit the fan.

      Department-7 has more information regarding this, but they aren't talking.

      --
      ---- Liquid was a patriot ----
    11. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by frogstar_robot · · Score: 1

      In all silly seriousness, that much low atomic weight matter is either going to ignite into a star of some kind or it is going to explode (what you said....more or less). It wouldn't look like any sort of candy or confection long before that sheer mass of candyball is complete. Once planetary mass is achieved, the core will heat (undoubtedly a tasty caramel layer will form and move outward toward the crust...) and you'll have one hot ball of hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, and a few other things. Large tracts of the surface may remain lickable although it is going to have one nasty atmosphere. At some point it will resemble a Jupiter and as mass increases get downright starlike. With masses like this we just aren't going to have most of these sugars, starches, and carbohydrates staying intact. 1 AU diameter's worth of mostly carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon? Sheeyeeet! This thing would be one tasty blue white supergiant.....assuming it just doesn't blow up at some point in formation.

      In this universe, if you put that much shit in one place SOMETHING is going to happen be it Cadbury Creme filling or horseflops.

    12. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by physburn · · Score: 1
      Actually, its more there otherway round. Having read the article it looks like a more proof that dark matter isn't made of WIMPs.

      Starting with the assumption of standard 1Gev-100Gev http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weakly_interacting_ma ssive_particleWIMPS. The predict that the early universe will be full of these dark star things, that are big, diffuse and don't create heavy element or go supernova, and hang around for as long as 600 Million years. Since no one as seen any of these, and since we need the first stars to go supernova, and inject lots of heavy elements into galaxies, this looks like a big argument against WIMPs as CDM. The authors didn't say as much though, perphaps they they've become to fond of there dark stars while working on them.

      Reading this paper, makes me think its more likely that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_matter Mirror Matter, is the proper dark matter. Mirror matter also makes dark stars, but these ones, don't stop ordinary star formation, and do go boom, possibly explaining gamma ray bursts.

    13. Re:Missing: Anything Provable by fractoid · · Score: 1

      The enormous pressures in the core would crush the crude, macroscopic proteins in the chocolate into their component molecules, then heat and pressure would eventually overwhlem the degeneracy pressure, causing the entire gooey mass to break down into a seething mass of elementary particles. Did anyone else read this as "...break down into a seething molasses..."? :P
      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  7. Burn so slow, they should be called WIMP stars by Palmyst · · Score: 1
  8. Dark Stars? by wiredog · · Score: 2, Funny

    The bastard children of Dark Helmet and Lone Star?

    1. Re:Dark Stars? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's gone from suck to blow!

    2. Re:Dark Stars? by wass · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, we don't yet understand the nature of dark matter, but those dark stars are definitely powered by the Schwartz.

      --

      make world, not war

  9. In strange Eons... by Trent+Hawkins · · Score: 1, Funny

    Damn! You can't find a good Lovecraft Quote when you really need one! ... off to the library!

  10. Wha? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TFA brings up a good point, all this dark matter had to have condensed into big star-like masses and should still be around but it wouldn't just be pure dark matter there would be hydrogen and helium too and on the other hand stars like our sun should have dark matter in them too so where is it?

    wizardforce's Mom: "wizardforce, I have told you a thousand times: take big breaths and speak slowly."

  11. The Early Universe was Hosted on Slackware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Darkstars predominated the early universe. A new tenet for the Church of the Subgenius!

  12. Predicted by Robert Hunter in 1969 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Dark Star crashes...pouring it's light into ashes...reason tatters...the forces tear loose from the axis...

  13. Re:"non-fusion reactions" by l2718 · · Score: 1

    If your car is powered by the annihilation of elementary particles and anti-particles, kudos to you. For myself, I'm not sure to what extent these objects deserve to be called ``stars''.

  14. Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just wondering but if they are are massive and burn slowly wouldn't they tend to collapse into black holes? If they don't put out enough heat to counter their gravitational field they should collapse. If so they may be the cores of the super massive black holes at the center of many galaxies. Just and idea since there where no numbers given in the article.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      no - white holes - it's like bizarro world but in astronomy

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    2. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by perturbed1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What makes normal matter collapse is the "friction" or "interaction" between the charged particles. Dark matter is neutral as far as we know and it does not interact through the EM-forces. Hence the name "dark," meaning it does not interact with light either. It is hard to form models where dark matter "collapses". The reason is that the dark matter particles do not exchange energy/momentum easily, as they interact through the "weak" forces only.

    3. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by secPM_MS · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As matter clouds condenses, gravitational energy is released. This energy has to be radiated away for the collapse to proceed, as the collapse is opposed by the thermal kinetic energy of the matter in the cloud. This was a major problem in the early universe when the abundance of metals was so low that radiation cooling was less efficient. If dark matter interacts very weakly with normal matter and electromagnetic fields, cooling is going to be very slow indeed. We know that dark matter exists and that it forms concentrations on the scale of large galaxies. We do not have strong evidence for the concentration of dark matter in the solar system, where it could result in apparent radial variations in solar or planetary masses. I supect that cooling of stellar mass dark matter clouds is rather difficult. Once somebody figures out how to observe the stuff and its properties, we can better understand what we see and what we should be looking for.

    4. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by king-manic · · Score: 1

      Just wondering but if they are are massive and burn slowly wouldn't they tend to collapse into black holes?

      Only if there is enough mass within a certain radius. Even if it does not burn with nuclear fusion it would need ot have enough mass to bring it's radius down to a predefined number.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    5. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by ls+-la · · Score: 1

      Not unless their mass is large enough for the gravitational potential to overcome the "zero-point energy" which keeps particles from violating Heisenberg's uncertainty principle (more info). Wikipedia has a stub about gravitational collapse which I should expand when I get some free time. The important thing is that no, mass does not collapse into a black hole just because it doesn't give off energy.

    6. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that isn't right at all. what makes normal matter collapse is gravity. this 'friction or interaction' you speak of is what keeps charged particles from collapsing into each other.

      one of the first things you do in a modern physics class is demonstrate via quantum mechanics why an electron exists in a shell outside of the nucleus rather than collapse into it as it is oppositely charged. quantum mechanics shows that essentially the electon cannot under normal circumstances exist in the nucleus and the interaction between the charged particles ensures that.

      however, when gravity gets strong enough it overrides that pressure and the atom collapses and you end up with a neutron, hence a neutron star.

      there's a further stage of degeneracy where a neutron star collapses under the force of gravity. this has nothing to do with charges as neutrons do not carry an electic charge. in this case it is gravity being strong enough to overwhelm an even stronger quantum pressure.

      dark matter interacts through gravity as well. so why wouldn't dark matter have some kind of degeneracy pressure to deal with too?

    7. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by shma · · Score: 1

      There are two mechanisms which prevents stars from collapsing under gravitational attraction. For stars like our sun it is thermal pressure and radiation pressure (for massive stars, this is the larger pressure) caused by nuclear fusion and the massive amount of energy released by it. However, when stars stop fusing and cool down into white dwarfs or neutron stars, they are still supported by what's called a degeneracy pressure. The basic idea is that the laws of quantum mechanics prevent all the particles from occupying the same energy state (this is the Pauli exclusion principle), and as a result, there is a density dependent pressure. Such a mechanism could keep dark matter stars from collapsing, assuming they are fermionic in nature.

      --
      I came here for a good argument
    8. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      I do understand but they are claiming these are massive. But again no numbers on mass just some reference that they could be 1 AU in diameter. I really hate science stories that don't include any useful data. My question is are these above or below the Chandra limit and is the their density limit the same as normal matter?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    9. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by shma · · Score: 1

      Having briefly read through the paper, they state that the dominant mechanism is thermal pressure. They are assuming here that the dark matter is weakly interacting (they say their result is very general, but in the paper they work with a specific candidate for dark matter: neutralinos, the supersymmetric partner of neutrinos. With theoretical bounds, they find that in these DM stars, the heating from neutralino reactions overpower any cooling mechanisms, leading to this giant star. Note that the stars are not entirely made of dark matter. The starting point for these calculations is 85% DM and 15% normal matter.

      --
      I came here for a good argument
    10. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by Rich0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not 100% sure that this is what you're getting at, but for the less physically inclined (including myself) let me try an alternate explanation - please feel free to shoot holes in it.

      Ok, you're a hydrogen atom floating in DEEP space. You feel the tug of a galactic cluster, so you start moving towards it. Then you feel the tug of a galaxy, so you start moving towards it. Then you feel the tug of a random planet like the Earth, so you start moving towards it. All along you have been bumping into other hydrogen atoms, so by the time you get to the earth you are moving fast, but not insanely fast. You hit the earth and get stuck in the dirt.

      Now, picture that you're a particle of dark matter, whatever that is, with a little bit of apparent mass. You start out in DEEP space and happen to fall all the way to the Earth. But, this time you haven't interacted with anything along the way, and so you're still flying along at 99% of the speed of light. You fly through the Earth, out of the galaxy, out of the cluster, and start slowing down until you fall back towards the cluster. So, you're essentially orbiting on a galactic scale or larger.

      So, at any given time there might be dark matter particles within the boundary of the Earth, but they're only transiently present. They don't accumulate on the Earth because most are just orbiting on a galactic scale. That's why you don't see them.

      In order to stay around the Earth objects need to have a similar velocity. Not many particles of dark matter would be likely to have a similar velocity to the Earth, because there isn't any real way for them to clump up - except as just big balls of gas on the galactic scale.

      Is this a decent explanation?

    11. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by StoneTempest · · Score: 1

      What makes normal matter collapse is the "friction" or "interaction" between the charged particles. Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but the interaction between charged particles has nothing to do with gravitational collapse into black holes. The "weak" force of gravity is all that is necessary to form a black hole.
    12. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You're incorrect. Things can't "collapse" through gravitational interaction alone. Some random bits of matter will go into orbit around a common centre. In order to have a collapse you have to have friction or some other interaction to bleed away momentum and cause that orbit to decay.

      Imagine the simplest case -- a clump of matter over here and a clump over there. They're heading straight for each other and accelerating because they're attracted by gravity. If they don't interact in any other way, the two clumps will pass right through each other and keep on going.

    13. Re:Wouldn't they tend to collapse? by StoneTempest · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, you're right, thank you, I was having a brain fart. For completeness I'd like to point out they would radiate gravitational waves, but that wouldn't bleed off enough momentum and energy to make them collapse in any reasonable time.

  15. Science and authors by perturbed1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    On \. OriginalArlen reports the news. I look at the linked website, called Universe Today and I see that there is one "publisher" by the name of Fraser Cain. Following the link there, finally, I get to the article on the arxiv, the definitive source of new physics papers. So to get to the source, it takes three jumps. So what has Fraser Cain done for us? Watered down the content? Couldn't OriginalArlen read the article and write a gist himself/herself? Or is Fraser Cain the same person as OriginalArlen? Reading the original article, I find "some" correlation on what ends up on \. and what is in the article. Or is this not the point? If I had to write a review for this article, I would have said that the last sentence of the abstract is what is most important: "A ..star .. detectable via annihilation products (gamma-rays, neutrinos, anti-matter) possibly in combination with hydrogen lines." The brilliant thing about this article is that these theorists are cooking up something that is actually detectable! Something that can be tested and hopefully will! *Finally* congrats to Douglas Spolyar, Katherine Freese and Paolo Gondolo, who *wrote* the article. (No, I dont know any of them. But isn't it time we cited those whose ideas we regurgitate?)

    1. Re:Science and authors by OriginalArlen · · Score: 1

      Or is Fraser Cain the same person as OriginalArlen? If so, I want my other salary!
      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    2. Re:Science and authors by Fraser+Cain · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you can have the parallel universe salary.

      --
      Publisher, Universe Today - http://www.universetoday.com
    3. Re:Science and authors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Fraser Cain is that psychiatrist with the radio show who likes to go to wine tastings and operas with his brother Niles...

    4. Re:Science and authors by iamlucky13 · · Score: 1

      "A ..star .. detectable via annihilation products (gamma-rays, neutrinos, anti-matter) possibly in combination with hydrogen lines." The brilliant thing about this article is that these theorists are cooking up something that is actually detectable!

      Brilliant except for the fact that, in lieu of any details about what dark matter is and with only a few details about what it isn't, what they are looking for is an almost entirely arbitrary expectation.

      It's good to think outside the box and look for unusual ways to answer tricky questions, but I have a hard time getting excited about this because I'm not understanding how they speculate on the formation, evolution, and anihilation signature of these dark stars without falling back on known properties of classical matter.

    5. Re:Science and authors by hr+raattgift · · Score: 1
      Their DM candidate is a light neutralino. The masses (roughly 0.1-10 TeV) of their candidate bounds the neutralino-antineutralino annihilation products (the two-gluon combinations and two-photon emissions, in particular, are in a well-defined and fairly narrow space). This will lead to both further decay products (some of which are normal matter) and emissions signatures in the gamma ray range.

      This is not especially novel, or especially controversial within the LCDM WIMP space.

      I have a hard time getting excited about this because I'm not understanding how they speculate on the formation, evolution, and anihilation signature of these dark stars without falling back on known properties of classical matter.


      What's "classical matter"?

      Their DM candidate arises from a particular supersymmetry model, and their paper poses a search space for evidence not only of their DM candidate but also of that particular neutrino supersymmetry partner.

      It's not exciting, but it is good science, as if observational searches do not reveal the required emissions signatures, it serves as evidence against that particular supersymmetry model. Being able to disprove that model is a step forward from correspondence between it and current data (which also fits the standard model, and other proposals (like string theory)).

  16. Actual research link by martyb · · Score: 4, Informative

    If anyone can link the actual research done I'd love to see it

    Here is the PDF: Dark matter and the first stars: a new phase of stellar evolution

    Here is the abstract:

    Douglas Spolyar1, Katherine Freese2,3, and Paolo Gondolo4
    1 Physics Dept., University of California, Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    2 Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics, Dept. of Physics, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
    3 Visiting Miller Professor, Miller Institute, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720
    4 Physics Dept., University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112
    dspolyar@physics.ucsc.edu, ktfreese@umich.edu, paolo@physics.utah.edu

    A mechanism is identified whereby dark matter (DM) in protostellar halos dramatically alters the current theoretical framework for the formation of the first stars. Heat from neutralino DM annihilation is shown to overwhelm any cooling mechanism, consequently impeding the star formation process and possibly leading to a new stellar phase. A "dark star" may result: a giant (> 1 AU) hydrogen-helium star powered by DM annihilation instead of nuclear fusion, and detectable via annihilation products (gamma-rays, neutrinos, antimatter) possibly in combination with hydrogen lines. (emphasis added)

  17. What I want to know... by Progman3K · · Score: 1

    I'm just an armchair physicist, but the article talks about dark matter annihilation.
    What exactly is/was the dark matter annihilating with?
    I thought antimatter and matter could annihilate...
    Would the dark matter in fact be the regular matter that antimatter annihilates with in the proposed scenario?

    --
    I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    1. Re:What I want to know... by perturbed1 · · Score: 3, Informative
      In this case, dark matter particles would annihilate with each other. Just like photons can annihilate with each other -- if they have the right helicity/spin. Dark matter particles are neutral and yes, could, annihilate with each other under certain conditions.

      Note that dark matter is *not* regular matter. It is matter which does not interact through the electro-magnetic forces. It does not interact "with charged particles" nor with light! Hence, the name "dark." If light can not scatter from it, then that makes it "dark."

    2. Re:What I want to know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bizarre concept I know, but why not try reading the paper linked to in the article. You know the one that explains all of that (with references even...)

  18. Read the article! by perturbed1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ok, so say you are not a physicist, you can still read the article. It may have equations, but it is still English: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0705/0705.0521 v1.pdf

    The authors say: "The nature of the cold dark matter in the universe is as yet unknown. Weakly Interacting Massive Particles (WIMPs) are possibly the strongest candidates, as WIMPs that were in thermodynamic equilibrium in the early universe automatically provide the appropriate relic abundance to give the observed matter density. More- over, WIMPs have a natural origin in particle physics, e.g. neutralinos in supersymmetric models are excellent DM candidates. [..]T he details of the interactions and masses of the neutralinos depend on a large number of model parameters. In the minimal supergravity model, experimental and observational bounds restrict the neutralino mass m to 50 GeV-2 TeV, while the annihilation cross section v lies within an order of magnitude of h vi = 3 × 10^-26cm3/sec (except at the low end of the mass range where it could be several orders of magnitude smaller). "

    So the authors make it clear that they are working under a set of assumptions, which are now fairly well accepted in the astrophysics community. Yes, maybe, these set of assumptions are wrong and if they are, their nice constructed dark stars would not exist.... If the annihilation cross section was very very high, then all dark matter would have self-annihilated by now. So there are bounds on that. Yes, it is theoretically possible still, I suppose, that dark matter may not self-annihilate! That makes it harder to detect! Most favored particle physics phenomenology would suggest that there should be some annihilation cross-section, on the order of magnitude suggested by the measured strength of the weak-forces. It turns out that this annihilation cross section is low enough that most dark matter would have survived to this day after the ~14billion history of the universe.

  19. Dark Matter == Alien Civilizations by Saeger · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A sufficiently advanced civilization that doesn't destroy itself first will inevitably optimize their environment to the point of harvesting every last drop of energy from their star(s), such that we can't detect anything but the gravitational effects.

    This mysterious "dark matter" structure is termed a Matrioshka Brain (aka: Dyson Sphere).

    I understand that this theory's still a bit too shocking for many to seriously consider, so "exotic particles" - or ANY other explaination - it must surely be.

    --
    Power to the Peaceful
    1. Re:Dark Matter == Alien Civilizations by MacEnvy · · Score: 1

      I hadn't thought of that. And it makes a lot of sense. But to believe it, you'd have to believe that there are a TON of alien societies, or one huge one, or something where a significant portion of the universe appears to be simply missing because of it.
      I'd like to believe that I think, though.

      --


      ***
    2. Re:Dark Matter == Alien Civilizations by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      Nope, all that would be radiated as blackbody radiation; it would be at a lower wavelength than the light from the star and spread over a larger area.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    3. Re:Dark Matter == Alien Civilizations by StoneTempest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, if all of the dark matter were Dyson Spheres around stars, or star systems, they'd still give off black body radiation, which we can easily detect. This is because black body radiation is independent of everything except temperature, which will be above ambient interstellar temperature (thus producing the radiation) in every case, unless this civilization has found a way to reverse entropy.

      Further, recent observations of a pair of colliding galaxies conclusively shows that dark matter absolutely cannot be normal matter, since normal matter interacts with the EM force (which is producing drag on the colliding gas clouds), but dark matter does not (in the collision the dark matter clouds are just sliding past each other). Thus Dyson Sphere-covered stars, or star systems, dark matter is not.

    4. Re:Dark Matter == Alien Civilizations by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      To add to the other comments, a Dyson sphere has many other problems too. A sphere would has no net gravity within itself. There is the issue of dealing with solar wind and the toxic high energy particles that, with Earth's huge magnetic field, mostly slides around. These and many other problems are discussed in the many articles on the subject.

    5. Re:Dark Matter == Alien Civilizations by XchristX · · Score: 1

      An even wackier idea is the possibility of intelligent beings made of dark matter, such as science fiction writer Stephen Baxter's fictitious Photino Birds

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    6. Re:Dark Matter == Alien Civilizations by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      Dark matter can't be "Matrioshka Brains" or anything else made out of ordinary baryonic matter. That ideas has already been tried, in the form of Massive Compact Halo Objects (MACHOs), which could be brown dwarfs or any other dark lump of matter floating around, including a Dyson sphere. Such kinds of dark matter can't be responsible for most of the dark matter in the universe: they don't cluster gravitationally in the right way, they don't seed galaxy formation correctly (and if they were Dyson spheres, probably wouldn't even exist when galaxy-seeding is going on), etc.

    7. Re:Dark Matter == Alien Civilizations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A society with the ability to construct a Dyson Sphere would have no trouble making use of (or constructing) planets *within* the radius of the sphere, with all of the properties you list.

      There are many potential planetary orbits within a sphere of a radius of about 1 AU around a Sol-like star that would be useful for supporting Earth-like life.

      The point of the sphere would likely be to gather up all the star's energy otherwise radiated into space, not to live stuck to the inner or outer surface of it with magnetic boots.

  20. Dark Matter is the new Ether by Leptok · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Does it seem weird to anyone else? Now I haven't stayed up to date with dark matter, but they keep insisting that it MUST be there. It almost seems to be the ether that was claimed to be around us before Einstein blew that one open.

    1. Re:Dark Matter is the new Ether by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be surprised if 98.9% of dark matter/stars research was the result of someone forgetting to take the lens cap off of the telescope.

    2. Re:Dark Matter is the new Ether by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it is NOT the new Ether. Ether was the anchor which would hold us glued to some "space-time" coordinates. Dark matter is not that at all! Actually, physicists would rather do away with it completely, but it is being put back on our dish everytime, with every experiment. By now, it is just too "statistically significant" to be deemed "like ether." Ether was something to save the status-quo of physics. On the contrary, every experiment which is done just confirms its existance and chips away at the status-quo of the standard model. Yes, the standard model of particle physics is dead -- why? Because it has no particles which behave like dark matter particles. How how I wish I could insist that it MUST NOT be there. Alas, I would have been proven wrong a million times over in the past ten years.

    3. Re:Dark Matter is the new Ether by Leptok · · Score: 0

      It just seems so weird. I have a feeling that in 50 years time we'll be laughing that "dark matter" was even brought up as a real theory.

    4. Re:Dark Matter is the new Ether by khallow · · Score: 1

      Neutrinos for starters have the appropriate properties though as I understand it we aren't seeing enough of them to account for more than a small fraction of dark matter.

    5. Re:Dark Matter is the new Ether by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Well, until somebody does "blow open" dark matter, like Einstein did for ether, people will continue to rely on dark matter, because we have a big dark hole in our cosmological model. Dark matter really isn't all that complicated to understand. It's just like the name reads. It says that there is a mass out there that we can't detect at all, but its existence is implied by current theory and calculations.It doesn't really explain what is going on, so much as it just points out what we don't yet completely understand.

      If you add up all the visible, detectable matter in the universe, and calculate how much gravity there is keeping the whole universe together, they don't add up. There isn't enough visible matter for the universe to hold together the way it does. As far as we know, only matter generates gravitational pull, so therefore there must be some matter generating gravity that we can't yet detect.

      It may very well be that the only way to detect 'dark matter' is we measure it in the missing gravity over and above the gavity generated by 'bright', visible, detectable matter. That may be all there is to dark matter -- it it simply a gravity generating phenomena, like other matter, except that it doesn't interact with the universe in any way other than creating gravitational pull.

      If you want people to abandon the 'theory' -- and it isn't really a theory, it's just people describing the gaping hole in the measurement of matter versus the amount of gravity in the universe -- then you have to come up with an alternative explanation that does a better job. Right now dark matter is the best explanation of our observations.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  21. That was illuminating! by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

    Dark matter, dark stars.... next there will be dark light!

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:That was illuminating! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dungeon horrible, on all sides round
      As one great furnace flamed, yet from those flames
      No light, but rather darkness visible

    2. Re:That was illuminating! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Black light is like so 70's

  22. Re:Obligatory... by cesium132 · · Score: 0

    someone beat ya to it by like an hour...

  23. Matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The stars are matter.
    We're matter.
    But it doesn't matter.


    With apologies to Captain Beefheart.

  24. Why I think Dark Matter isn't there. by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

    Dark Matter is something that physicists have used, to explain things that don't add up in calculations about the movement of galaxies and the expanding of the universe.

    I have an alternate explanation that explains the concept that the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing rate, Gamma-ray bursts, and the background noise in the Universe.

    Namely: There wasn't ONE big bang and there isn't just ONE universe. I'm not talking about extra dimensions -- but that the universe that we experience is just one Cluster, or "bubble." Our Big Bang was a regional event, and we can't see beyond the Time/Space distortion of it's shock wave. At some point, billions of years in the future, we may encounter the diluted shockwave of another Big Bang (we'll register it as a large-scale Stretching and contracting of space, as though everything were all of the sudden in a larger gravity well and then in less of one) and then see stars from another "Universe" and their Red-shift will show them coming toward us.

    Galaxies are pushed outward more than they should, because larger objects are affected at a greater distance -- while small objects are much more effected by the closer objects. So any gravity detection, say, on earth or of an earth-sized object, would not detect the massive but distant effect of another Universe pulling on galaxies of our own. Thus, Galaxies are moving outward at a faster rate than is explainable from Big Bang theory.

    The concept of this being an Open, or Closed universe is moot -- we are in a sea of "bubbles." And our Universe -- or Megaverse, is much more massive than anyone can imagine.

    >> However, there may be Neutron clusters of unattached matter. Or "closed-loop" pocket galaxies. And these would be "Neutral" to our Universe.

    --
    >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    1. Re:Why I think Dark Matter isn't there. by jcgam69 · · Score: 1

      How does your idea explain the orbital velocity of stars at the galactic core? These stars are orbiting too fast based on calculations of visible matter alone.

    2. Re:Why I think Dark Matter isn't there. by Verte · · Score: 0

      You're definitely a thinker, but let me explain why I think your Megaverse is unlikely to be our universe. The universe we can see now contains enough matter to completely curve the universe back on itself [which is to say, it must curve back on itself in at least one dimension]. If the remnants from another big bang were to come in contact with our universe, would they do so from inside or outside the universe? In any situation, there would be enough energy in any one area to severely affect the net curvature and effectively make the entire previous universe smaller. Though I agree with you, the big bang theory is too problematic, IMHO because a tiny universe should have a Shwarzchild radius, and consequently shouldn't grow.

      --
      We at slashdot are scientists, specialists and kernel hackers. Your FUD will be found out.
    3. Re:Why I think Dark Matter isn't there. by spike+hay · · Score: 1

      There are actual real physicists who know lots of math and physics who are almost certain dark matter is non-baryonic matter. All that you have here is a bunch of qualitative pop-sci/sci-fi type arguments held together with very airy logic.

      --
      If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
    4. Re:Why I think Dark Matter isn't there. by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      If the Universe is expanding at a greater rate -- then it's Swarzschild radius must stay constant, while the mass gets more dispersed. The assumption that the Universe has enough mass to curve space time -- depends upon the amount of space and the speed of the particles. I'm pretty sure the calculations depended upon how much mass it would take to overcome the current size and speed of the universe -- too little and the square of the distance means that gravity approaches zero, BEFORE it's deceleration of the particles does -- thus, they approach zero forever, with light and particles never curving back.

      If you take the Big Bang at face value -- than the fastest possible moment of the particles that make up the universe would have to have been shortly after it exploded (not immediatly, because there was reaction mass). After that, everything would have to continuously slowed down, a little bit moment after moment, as the continual "pull" of gravity draws everything back together.

      Well, the Universe is accelerationg at an increasing rate. I have three theories (since I was 12) that kind of make sense of that;
      1) There is a more massive MegaVerse (beyond the shock wave of our own and not observeable with conventional means -- because light has a finite limit and the "shock wave" of our space/time would compress all light beyond x-ray that moved into it). The outside mass pulls on our universe. Eventually, parts of these megaverses clump into discrete critical masses at create Big-Bangs. Lots of bubbles going "pop" all the time and would create massive but very distant bursts of Neutrino and Tachyon radiation. Due to gravity, all objects have an upper size limit -- that includes Universes. Has to do with the limit on light speed.
      2) All objects in the Universe are shrinking at the same rate. This is pretty esoteric but is useful in describing electric charge -- which has to do with energy states of past and future time. Nothing in this universe exists in the present. Everything approaches Zero. Being that the MegaVerse is everything, we will never reach Zero -- and it isn't anything to worry about. It just means that you can get something from nothing-- and that's why we are here.
      3) Gravity doesn't pull, it pushes. Objects are attracted to each other, because gravity is pushing away from matter. Gravity streams don't like to push against streams (well, kind of like water flowing to a lower spot -- high energy to low, Gravity spreads out because that creates the least pressure -- thus gravity gets distributed evenly over distances), so it all gets generalized as one general force. But close to the earth, we can create a Gravity Map. Larger objects affect larger objects more than smaller objects. Since it pushes more, everywhere objects are not -- it essentially acts just like pulling, but in esoteric ways, it should allow us to create objects that attract or repell each others gravities by harmonizing gravity waves. It also results in Fusion, and not just collapsing gravity wells.
      >> Note, I'm saying that all three of these theories are what we see in the Universe, and it explains just about everything.

      I'd have to say, in my mad theory -- it is about the Number of particles, not the Schwarzschild radius. Meaning, you can compress the earth into 9 mm and perhaps get fusion-- but not a black hole. What would you be compressing it with to get it to 9 mm? That, perhaps, would require enough matter to CREATE a black hole -- so you aren't going to get a Swcharzschild radius on anything but a massive star -- and a super massive star won't create a black hole -- the Repulsive force of gravity will force space/time to collapse on itself in the explosion, and you won't be left with the "black hole". You'll get a lot of Neutrinos and a really big bang.

      Think about it. It's pretty simple and I don't know why so many just don't see it; if there is a maximum speed to light. And being in a gravity well is equivalent to acceleration. There is a maximum acceleration and therefore a maximum g

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    5. Re:Why I think Dark Matter isn't there. by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      Would non-baryonic mean matter made of Neutrons?

      Since most of the energy of a supernova is supposed to be composed of neutrino emissions, and the Big Bang could definitely be considered a big explosion, they are saying that; a lot of the mass of the universe is basically the "missing mass" or Neutrinos (fast energy) and Neutron matter (cold, slow, not having electrical charge of electrons and protons).

      That said, you could still have a Local, Big Bang, and have a much bigger Universe with more than one big bang. As I've posted above; I think the limit on light speed, also puts an upper limit on the amount of matter in a given area (acceleration from a gravity well being the same as speed). So stars get so big, galaxies get only so big, and Universes get only so big.

      We've increased the size of the universe, becauase we have bigger and better telescopes now. There is a lot of space, dust, and distortion limiting the extent of space we can look at. It is very possible, that one day we will be able to peer farther in the Universe, and see that there is more of it.

      What isn't explained about the Non-baryonic matter (from my quick read), is if it is influenced by gravity. If it's clumps of Neutrons -- it still has mass, so would be making the light from galaxies much more cloudy.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    6. Re:Why I think Dark Matter isn't there. by Verte · · Score: 0

      Heh, that's not quite what I meant about the universe curving back on itself, I meant more like in a hypersphere shape. Energy [and by that I mean mass] curves the universe. It's like this: if you take a piece of paper and bend it in enough places in all the right directions, the edges of the paper will meet. That's effectively what gravity is: where there is mass or energy, the universe is bent. Of course, we can't see it bending, but we can measure it. This deviation from Euclidean geometry is very slight, but on a large scale, it means that distance would essentially be finite and the universe closed- if you travel too far, you come back to where you started. It's a given on any Riemann surface with plenty of points of positive curvature and none of negative curvature.

      In a closed universe such as ours, then, how can it be possible for something to be "outside" the universe? For example, what direction would it be in? If you go that way you will end up where you began.

      If other galaxies and far away stars are observably affected by your megaverse, I put it that the megaverse would be observable. Since we see the movement of galaxies millions of years after it happened, it would take the same ammount of time for the gravity to also reach us. But, it would be possible that the acceleration is very small, and therefore undetectable, but given enough time the acceleration integrates into the velocities we see galaxies moving at. [ie. possible.]

      Gravity pushing actually does make sense, especially if you think in terms of quanta. For momentum to be imparted via gravity, that momentum needs to be sent out as a particle, and must carry with it that momentum. And actually, I think that itself explains why galaxies appear red shifted. Quite simply, photon wave functions grow in standard distribution [as a Green's Function solution of a diffusion equation where the impulse is the mean path of the photon], and because the effect is essentially spread out, its effect is diminished by the curvature itself.

      Gravity is a lot like an ideal fluid. Gravity is a conservative vector field, and energy changes the field, and the field changes the energy, a lot like a liquid flowing. But what you're suggesting requires you break the conservation, including having gravity sinks. The big thing you have standing in your way is harmonising these waves. Gravity does, at least on the nanometre to millions of light year scale, act very predictably. Why it would differ from that is something you're going to have to work out, so you can find a method to test it. That it's not observable probably means that it's not relavant.

      Speed of light being definite doesn't mean that there is a maximum acceleration. You can keep adding momentum to a body and it will keep accelerating proportionally, and yet never reach the speed of light. Crazy, huh? :)

      By the way, you can throw a ball ahead of you if you're on a rocket traveling close to the speed of light. In fact, if you're traveling close to the speed of light, you won't even know it until you look out the window. Relativistic physics says that speed is relative, it doesn't matter how fast your rocket is going, if you're not moving relative to the rocket, things will be essentially the same as normal. If you're on a rocket and I'm not, you could say that I am actually moving at close to the speed of light, and therefore I can't throw a ball in the direction you were coming from.

      I think you will definitely have to write more [I didn't understand a lot of that, sorry]. I've had a number of crazy universe theories myself, though I've mostly debunked them, I'm always looking. I hope you do push your theory further and ask yourself what would happen if... and then look for evidence.

      --
      We at slashdot are scientists, specialists and kernel hackers. Your FUD will be found out.
  25. non-fusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If there was non-fusion going on, would it emit light with a characteristic white-body spectrum?

  26. I'm not sure I understand by AbsoluteXyro · · Score: 1

    How could dark matter form a star made of hydrogen or helium? I was under the impression that dark matter wasn't actually "matter" per se but rather the name assigned to a phenomena that causes gravity where there is no mass. This reads to me more like an anti-matter star... but then again, I'm no scientist here. Just some guy reading slashdot.

    1. Re:I'm not sure I understand by perturbed1 · · Score: 2, Informative
      Yes, dark matter interacts with gravity but not with the electro-magnetic forces.

      No, this is not an anti-matter star. Anti-matter is the "opposite" of particles that we are accustomed to, but still have the same interactions as the normal particles around us. So yes, they interact electro-magnetically. Say, you were a human being made of anti-matter on an anti-matter earth, in the part of the galaxy dominated by anti-matter, all visible physics laws would look the same. (Yes, there are one or two very weird experiments that would yield the opposite results. Feynman discusses this in his books, if you are interested.)

      There are 4 forces, as we know it, in the universe. Gravitational, electro-magnetic, strong and weak. All these forces treat anti-matter pretty much the same way that they treat matter. Dark matter is something completely different. The reason is, it does not interact electro-magnetically. We know this cause we can "see" that it does not interact with photons( light )-- the force carrier of the electro-magnetic force. All observations agree that it does interact gravitationally. And whether or not it interacts weakly or not is under contention.

      The significance of the results of dark matter experiments is very high. So, we pretty much, by now, know that dark matter exists and it does account for a large fraction of the energy budget of our universe, about ~22%. Good old normal matter accounts for about 4% of the energy budget.

      Dark matter particles are probably flowing through you read this. They are around us. They interact only very very weakly and so we dont "feel" them. As their concentration is not very high, they do not contribute to our weight either. But they are around us, that's pretty clear.

      If you think all this dark matter stuff sounds crazy, well, then a little factoid. About a billion neutrinos are passing through your eye-ball per second! They are mostly coming from the sun! And they flow through us, with extremely low probability of interacting, and with no real effect on our daily lives. Actually, the probability that ONE neutrino has interacted in the body of an 80-old person in his life time is about 50%. So that's a pretty rare event. The interaction of dark matter particles are on the same order of magnitude. For sometime, people thought that neutrinos could be dark matter candidates, until experiments showed that neutrinos are not heavy enough to account for ~22% of the energy budget of the universe.

      So what does this whole thing mean? Dark matter particles are heavy particles, which do not like interacting with normal matter particles and mostly go about their own way, but still make their presence be felt, through gravity by structuring the universe through their overwhelming-numbers.

  27. Dark matter = modern phlogiston? by Saberwind · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can't help but see parallels between dark matter and the (al)chemist's Phlogiston theory. Phlogiston was used to account for quantitative errors in chemical reactions. Funny thing was, every (al)chemist had his own measurements for its properties, until our understanding of chemistry improved. I wouldn't be surprised if the dark matter theory were eventually tossed out the window because our understanding of gravity improved.

    1. Re:Dark matter = modern phlogiston? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's because you don't know all the details about dark matter.

      Here's the quick overview:

      On large scales the matter in the universe doesn't seem to behave as it should. We can explain this by hypothesizing extra matter we can't see. Others have attempted to explain it by hypothesizing that gravity doesn't work the way we think it should, AND that there's matter we can't see.

      For various reasons it seems very likely that there are a set of very massive particles with certain properties. This is according to one of the most wildly successful theories of all time. It's been used to predict the (later confirmed) existence and properties of several other particles. The properties of these particles are quite like what is needed to explain all that matter we can't see. Moreover, these particles should have been created in the big bang in amounts that are suspiciously like the amount of that unseen matter we need.

      So here are the major alternatives. One, dark matter exists and consists mainly of massive, weakly interacting particles. Two, we're wrong about gravity, particle physics and the big bang. Oh, and we still need dark matter anyway.

  28. No More Thought Experiments by pln2bz · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The purpose of dark matter is to explain why spiral galaxies can rotate as a fixed plate. Until you can actually observe the particles or somehow conclude that they do indeed exist (and speculative NASA press releases with colorized images do not count), we should avoid further speculation about their role.

    We cannot prove that dark matter exists with thought experiments. It requires the construction of equipment or laboratory work, or possibly even careful interpretation of observations. But, regardless of how many astrophysicists need PhD's, we should not encourage any further speculation about dark matter until it is demonstrated to exist -- for everything these new theories touch will themselves turn into speculation, and we will confuse ourselves more than we already have about the level of confidence we can place in our theories. What if we do decide to invest lots of astrophysicists into thought experiments about dark matter's role in the universe? Then, you will have effectively created a group that will lobby for the existence of dark matter even when the weight of the evidence is against it.

    In other words, speculations should be based upon some sort of observation. Dropping hints about what a dark matter star might look like is just a clever way of trying to stake out terrain within the astrophysics community.

    --
    "A man cannot begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows." --Epictetus, 1st Century A.D.
    1. Re:No More Thought Experiments by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 2, Informative
      > The purpose of dark matter is to explain why spiral galaxies can rotate as a fixed plate.

      No it isn't. Spiral galaxies don't rotate like fixed plates. The spiral arms are density waves moving around galaxies and the rotation period of a star around the center of a galaxy varies with distance from the center of the galaxy. I don't know what astrophysicists need to do, but I do know that /. readers could do without people just making stuff up and trying to pass it off as science.

      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    2. Re:No More Thought Experiments by perturbed1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The purpose of dark matter is not just to explain spiral galaxy rotational curves. The bigger problem is the energy budget of the universe.

      If you ONLY read the NASA press releases with colorized images, that is, I am afraid your problem. There is over-whelming evidence for the existance of dark matter and what are scientists to do if the only thing that puts dark matter on a \.er's mind is just a pretty picture. If you are interested, go to arxiv.org and search for results from dark matter experiments and read the papers. Yes, they are technical. Yes, it produced many PhDs -- not a bad thing, last time I checked. And yes, the experimental evidence is overwhelming.

      The number of people working on dark matter experiments, greatly exceeds the number of dark matter theorists, probably by an order of magnitude actually. This is *the* one field in astro-particle physics, where there is great wealth of data and that data is driving the evolution of the field. In particle physics, this is not the case! There is no data on particles which might form dark matter! There are too many theories! Hopefully, the tables will turn when the LHC at CERN turns on next year!

      I should also point out that this is one of the "nicest" sort of theoretical astrophysics papers there is. It suggests a possible phenomena that produces an experimental signature in space experiments like or AMS.

  29. Dark matter does not exist. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "missing mass" of the universe is energy stored and utilised by intelligence. This knowledge will not stop the funding drive in our tiny corner of the universe however.

  30. Besides Dark Matter by reezle · · Score: 1

    Besides Dark Matter, isn't a change to the laws of gravity a bit more elegant solution to why galaxy's don't fly apart? Gravity doesn't obey Newton's laws on the very small scale (atomic), so why should they be expected to on the very large scale (galactic)?

    Every time I see this stuff I'm always curious if there is a dark matter explanation of why Voyager is slowing down more than Newtonian gravity would predict. If not, is some physicist going to come up with some more imaginary unsee-able stuff to explain that away, too?

    1. Re:Besides Dark Matter by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > Besides Dark Matter, isn't a change to the laws of gravity a bit more elegant solution to
      > why galaxy's don't fly apart?

      No. General relativity isn't a set of heuristic equations that can be patched by adding some terms or jiggering some coefficients.

      > Gravity doesn't obey Newton's laws on the very small scale (atomic)...

      What gives you that idea?

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:Besides Dark Matter by reezle · · Score: 3, Informative

      >> Gravity doesn't obey Newton's laws on the very small scale (atomic)...
      >
      >What gives you that idea?

      Quantum Gravity
      "the first quantum-mechanical corrections to graviton-graviton scattering and Newton's law of gravitation have been explicitly computed (although they are so astronomically small that we may never be able to measure them)"

    3. Re:Besides Dark Matter by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Sure is. Except that nobody's proposed a reasonable alternation to the laws of gravity that explain what we see without including dark matter. Less of it, but dark matter nonetheless. Changing the laws of gravity AND including dark matter isn't elegant at all.

      Plus then you still have the problem of where all the supersymmetric particles went in the big bang. Dark matter solves that one nicely too. Solving two problems, one in cosmology and one in particle physics, with one hypothesis is pretty elegant.

  31. When will this blind alley end? by The+Mighty+Gerkin · · Score: 1

    Plasma physics has better explanations and models for all this crap. www.thunderbolts.info www.holoscience.com - this one is by a nobel prize winner, so shut up.

    1. Re:When will this blind alley end? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pfftt. I heard a Nobel prize winner speak on how cell phones are making everyone stupid so the government could control them. This was in 94.

      So..Nobel Prize winner doesn't exactly make me think 'Her's a sharp mind' anymore.

      "From 1850 to 1970, we see an almost linear relationship with Solar variability; not CO2."
      Funny he fails to mention the contiue rise in temperature during 'cool' sun periods.
      Ignores the fact that they average temperature over time has risen. Yes some year are 'cooler' then others, but that explains exactly nothing.

      OTOH, maybe 98% of scientists who have studied Global Warming are in some sort of conspiracy.

      What do I know.

    2. Re:When will this blind alley end? by PermanentMarker · · Score: 1

      And so your goverment does.....
      And for sure if your an american, also europe, and probaply in other countries to.
      We also keep track of where you have been with a celphone location, those records are kept for more then one year, for possible backtracking of people in criminal cases.

      So these Nobel price winners aren' that stupid as you wrote.

      Also you seam to deny that there is something wrong with our global warming knowledge.
      It seams to me that people just want to reject the idea that we spoil nature.
      To keep their cars driving and get cheap energy. The sun has become more active indeed, combined with the effect of global warming CO2 this is becoming a huge problem.
      So what happened after 1970 ?

      If you think CO2 is a normal thing to breath you're a bit wrong.
      Also check out the years when suddenly acid rain apeared in the news.
      (causing building concrete stone problems..)

      So earth isn't something like a mcdonalds store, a place where you consume to grow fat.
      It's something we have live always and to take care of..

      --
      I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
  32. Supporting cast? by Telepathetic+Man · · Score: 1

    Sure, Dark Matter is the star of the show, but we all know he would be nothing if it weren't for the supporting cast, and the great script.

    --
    Just because you can, does not mean you should.
  33. Subliminal messages... by Vexler · · Score: 2, Funny
    From the /. entry:

    "'dark stars'... 'they could still be with us'... 'ghosts'"

    Geez, with Lucas announcing that more Star Wars movies are coming, it's sad that /. has been infiltrated by the Sith.

    These are not the sequels you are looking for.

  34. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  35. DM was observed unambigously last year by ynotds · · Score: 3, Informative

    See Clowe, Douglas et al (2006). "A Direct Empirical Proof of the Existence of Dark Matter," The Astrophysical Journal, ISSN 0004-637X, 648 (September 10): L109-L113.

    It was big news at the time so Google will find you plenty of commentary online.

    My own instincts suggest that we will eventually come to realise that dark matter and "dark energy" are as close as we will ever get to the main game in town and that baryonic matter will come to be seen as just the scum on the pond.

    --
    -- Our systemic servants do not good masters make.
  36. Re:"non-fusion reactions" by StrahdVZ · · Score: 1

    If your car is powered by the annihilation of elementary particles and anti-particles, kudos to you. For myself, I'm not sure to what extent these objects deserve to be called ``stars''. Its an interesting idea actually. Dark cars?
  37. Woah. by sexybomber · · Score: 1

    You just blew my mind.

  38. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by wass · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The moon--as in, Earth's moon--is just normal matter that doesn't glow. Oh, and Earth is too! Neither are dark matter.

    That's not true. Earth does glow, quite strongly, in the infrared. The moon glows too, although at a slightly lower temperature (and thus longer wavelengths) due to lack of greenhouse effect.

    However, Earth's infrared glowing is of course due to the sun's fusion output. Ie, Earth is in equilibrium, where it radiates as a blackbody the same amount of energy it that it absorbs from the sun.

    So (as far as I know) a dark-matter planetoid at the same distance from the sun as Earth wouldn't have this infrared glow, because it wouldn't absorb solar photons. It would just exert a gravitational pull (or maybe have some other exotic effects). So you are correct, though, about dark matter being different from non-glowing (ie cold) 'regular' matter.

    --

    make world, not war

  39. Parallel universes by orkysoft · · Score: 1

    I'm probably talking out of my own dark star here, but can the additional gravity observed not be caused by parallel universes? That way, the dark matter exists (possibly as normal matter we just can't see) in parallel universes, and we observe the effects of its gravity on the visible matter in our universe.

    --

    I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    1. Re:Parallel universes by perturbed1 · · Score: 1
      Yey! This was actually suggested as a cause sometime ago, in some paper, but I can't find it for the life of me.

      Actually, this parallel universe theory is mostly used explaining why gravity is so weak as opposed to the other 3 physical forces. If gravity acts in many dimensions (more than 3) it could be that it is weaker cause it has to divide up its force among so many dimensions. Lisa Randall is the main propogator of this theory, so look up her papers if you are interested in this one.

  40. Light doesn't seem to interact with dark matter by MadRat · · Score: 1

    I wonder if somehow the dark matter isn't so much dark mass, but perhaps its purely electromagnetic in nature. We know photons have mass because they interact within gravitational influences. Do modern predictions about the universe take into any account all of this "mass" within transitory electromagnetic radiation? I would think it is measurable to some degree and therefore its influence predictable. And due to the doppler effect the gravitational effects of light should not necessarily be in a linear direction to their origin.

  41. antimatter is matter backwards in time by MadRat · · Score: 1

    Could that mean excited antimatter might form some sort of an anti-photon, too? It would be intrigueing to think that an anti-photon pair comes from the nether to collapse upon its own origin the reverse that a photon pair spreads out from its origin and reaches out to infinity.

  42. Coalescence of matter by oblivion95 · · Score: 1

    that isn't right at all. what makes normal matter collapse is gravity. this 'friction or interaction' you speak of is what keeps charged particles from collapsing into each other.


    Gravity? Not quite. A bunch of tiny, non-interacting point masses would not coalesce at all. They would just buzz around each other forever, maintaining their original net kinetic energy, momentum, and angular momentum.

    In order for dark matter to coalesce, it must do more than just "annihilate". There must be a mechanism for individual particles to lose kinetic energy. Ordinary matter does this through electromagnetic radiation and chemical bonding. The paper does not really explain how dark matter could do this.

    However, a concentration of dark matter could, via annihilation, produce an outflux of radiation which prevents the normal collapse of ordinary matter for awhile. I think that's really the point of the authors. It's not accurate to call that a "star". It would not be localized, except to the extent that the dark matter happens to be concentrated in some areas. It would be more like a vast, glowing soup.
  43. Dark Stars by Ace905 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm confused, if we don't know what dark matter is, or if it even exists - why do we know that it would burn slowly?

    --

    Ace
  44. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by wish+bot · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Christ, THANK YOU.

    Some sense at last. I just can't understand why rational people accept dark matter theories at face value, but claim to reject notions like 'ghosts' or 'god'.

    Hell, here's my theory: Dark Matter = God. He's everywhere, invisible, and keeps the universe together! See, explains everything really.

    The interesting thing about the whole dark matter episode, is that it probably gives an insight as to how religions form. Someone has a wild idea, that someone else expands on, that someone else tries to validate, that someone else uses as doctrine, that someone else teaches, that someone else uses to explain a wild idea...scary really. Eventually you end up with so many layers of analysis and reference that everyone's forgotten that the *original* idea was bunk. It's like an upside down house of cards.

    --
    lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
  45. Interesting stuff. by Sj0 · · Score: 1

    I can't help but wonder if there's an entire dark matter universe coexisting with ours, filled with dark matter stars, and dark matter planets, and maybe even a form of dark matter life and only tied to this universe through the gravitational force? Ever since I read that they'd confirmed the existence of the stuff, I've wondered if we'd find a twin universe hidden under ours.

    Discovering for certain things like that might change the way I look at the universe.

    --
    It's been a long time.
  46. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by wanerious · · Score: 1
    Some sense at last. I just can't understand why rational people accept dark matter theories at face value, but claim to reject notions like 'ghosts' or 'god'.

    Because there is evidence, lots of it, for its existence.

    Hell, here's my theory: Dark Matter = God. He's everywhere, invisible, and keeps the universe together! See, explains everything really.

    But, see, real astrophysicists are a bit more discerning. We've been able, through single galaxy dynamics, cluster dynamics, and gravitational lensing, to actually map out the distribution of this stuff. It's actually really interesting if you care to read the papers.

    The interesting thing about the whole dark matter episode, is that it probably gives an insight as to how religions form. Someone has a wild idea, that someone else expands on, that someone else tries to validate, that someone else uses as doctrine, that someone else teaches, that someone else uses to explain a wild idea...scary really. Eventually you end up with so many layers of analysis and reference that everyone's forgotten that the *original* idea was bunk. It's like an upside down house of cards.

    I'm glad that your idea of what science is really like is completely wrong. We're not all completely stupid. If we were, this field wouldn't be nearly as fascinating.

  47. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by Soldrinero · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Although I'm not an astrophysicist, I have studied astrophysics as an undergraduate and know some things about dark matter theories and cosmology. You are absolutely correct in saying that dark matter must be non-baryonic under current models. Baryonic dark matter is excluded because big-bang nucleosynthesis models (which take observed primordial elemental abundances as input) show that only ~4% of the mass of the universe can be baryonic matter.

    You are, however, incorrect in stating that dark matter shares no properties with ordinary matter besides gravity. All energy, including electromagnetic radiation and dark energy, affect the curvature of spacetime. Dark matter also has the property that it behaves in the same way as matter when the universe expands, i.e. that its density decreases as the cube of the scale factor (which determines the rate of expansion). Ordinary radiation and dark energy each behave differently in this regard, so dark matter is indeed uniquely matter-like in a very important way. Aside from galactic rotation curves, very good data from the WMAP project that studies the cosmic microwave background has determined that ~30% of the universe must be matter-like. Combined with the BBN studies, this means that 26% of the universe, by mass, is dark matter, which thus outnumbers ordinary matter by more than a factor of 6.

    You are also incorrect in assuming that we haven't found dark matter. There is actually a very excellent photo of colliding galaxies that shows convincing evidence of dark matter. The caption does a decent job at giving an explanation of the photo's significance. If you want a more thorough explanation, both of the photo and why the result is significant, I recommend this blog maintained by several well-known cosmologists.

    --
    I would rather be killed by a terrorist than enslaved by my government.
  48. No dark stars... by Dacelo+Gigas · · Score: 1
    They're just very efficient K2 civilizations.

    Kardashev Scale

    Dacelo

  49. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  50. Heavy by FrostedWheat · · Score: 1

    So if one of these stars where big enough, we could have a Dark Black Hole?

    Eep!

  51. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by perturbed1 · · Score: 1
    Sorry, Alaren. You got it mostly right, but forgot one thing. The weak interactions. Practically, our only hope to detect directly or through their annihilation products, these elusive dark matter particles.

    You raise a valid point about why we haven't seen any on earth. Well, they *are* all around us. They do not "cluster" as much as normal matter gravitationally so their concentration is not dense. We can not detect them directly through their gravitational influence, as gravity is too weak. Most experiments try to detect them through their weak interactions and hopefully soon will. There is an incredible amount of effort in this experimental effort right now.

  52. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by boot_img · · Score: 1

    ... Until we have some of this stuff isolated in a laboratory, it only exists as a mathematic abstract.

    ... Let's quit all this deep-space navel-gazing and isolate some dark matter. Where's the oil-drop experiment of the new millenium?

    I find it interesting that some people think that something isn't "real" unless it is seen in the lab.

    Dark matter likely interacts only through the weak force and gravity, much like the neutrino.

    Neutrinos cannot be "isolated" - but their existence can be detected indirectly through their (rare) interactions with other particles in detectors. That's perfectly valid, but why is it somehow more "real" than detecting a particle through its gravitational interactions?

  53. Dead On by BodhiCat · · Score: 1

    Dark star crashes
    pouring its light
    into ashes

    Reason tatters
    the forces tear loose
    from the axis

    Searchlight casting
    for faults in the
    clouds of delusion

    shall we go,
    you and I
    While we can?
    Through
    the transitive nightfall
    of diamonds

  54. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

    Under present models, dark matter isn't matter at all!

    Of course it is. You just have a restricted definition of "matter" which excludes, for instance, neutrinos. Neutrinos are massive fermions and deserve the label "matter" just as much as electrons do.

    Under present models, dark matter exists only as a mathematical fudge.

    It's not a mathematical fudge. There are a number of theories which naturally contain dark matter-like particles, completely apart from any motivation to explain the astrophysical observations. For instance, the Standard Model itself may well have to contain as-yet unobserved axions which are prime dark matter candidates, in order to resolve the strong CP problem. Also, there are a number of motivations coming from the Standard Model hierarchy problem and grand unification which suggest the existence of supersymmetry, which would provide other prime dark matter candidates. Neither of those motivations have anything to do with intentionally "fudging" the particle content of the theory to make astrophysics work out right.

    Simply put, if there is so much dark matter in the universe, why can't we find some? Statistically speaking, there should be some right here on Earth!

    Not if it's neutrino-like. Then it's hard to detect (extremely low interaction cross section) and doesn't tend to stick around in one place. Also, while most "regular" matter is confined to the galactic disk, dark matter is likely distributed throughout a spherical halo, meaning not too much of it happens to intersect the galactic disk (where we are). There are direct dark matter searches, but it's very far from a foregone conclusion that they will be able to detect dark matter. Simply put, just because it's abundant doesn't mean that it's easy to find.

    It makes almost as much sense to say that there is a parallel material universe, slightly overlapping our own, that only interacts with our universe on a gravitational level.

    Actually, that idea has been proposed, but there is much less motivation for it than there is for dark matter, as dark matter candidate particles exist quite naturally in the Standard Model and the most plausible extensions thereof. Also, the "parallel material universe" idea isn't really a substitute for dark matter (it was proposed for other reasons), since a "parallel universe" with "normal" matter in it doesn't behave like dark matter does!

  55. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

    They go on to explain why they think the bullet cluster means we've "found" dark matter, but frankly the problem remains.

    So? Unless you can come up with a feasible alternative explanation (and to my knowledge, there isn't one... I don't believe any of the popular MOND theories can explain the Bullet Cluster, though I may be wrong), the Bullet Cluster provides strong evidence for the existence of DM, whether or not you find the theory aesthetically pleasing or not.

  56. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  57. cock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.kbi-net.co.jp/KBI_Site/page01/face.jpg He is the world's worst phimosis. His cock is more stinking than anyone in the world. He is a gay. He sucks penes of an employee. As for him, ejaculation in a vagina to a woman employee is daily work. Therefore he has a large number of illegitimate children. He receives a large amount of bribe from the prefectural governor and the mayor. His clans are dependent on incest. His favorite food is a live cockroach. His close friend is Kim Jong Il and Osama bin Ladin. They conspire to annihilate a Japanese. Please fire bunker-buster into his hiding place right now. His hiding place is here. Bin Ladin is here, too. http://local.google.co.jp/maps?f=q&hl=ja&q=%E4%BB% 99%E5%8F%B0%E5%B8%82%E8%8B%A5%E6%9E%97%E5%8C%BA%E5 %85%AD%E4%B8%81%E3%81%AE%E7%9B%AE%E8%A5%BF%E7%94%B A1-41&ie=UTF8&ll=38.253061,140.931609&spn=0.004145 ,0.007231&t=k&z=17&om=1

  58. Spin one way, matter -- spin the other, antimatter by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    It's a bit like dancing, really. :)

    My recollection's a bit fuzzy, but I seem to remember reading that all matter has "spin" to it. I put "spin" in quotes, as the sources I've read described it not so much as spin like what you get with a top, since elemental particles seem to approach true points, and therefore have no circumference that could spin around a center.

    Anyway, I digress. The point I have is that everything has "spin". So does the anti-everything. If an electron has a spin of 1/2, then a positron would have the opposite of that -- or a spin of -1/2. This touches somewhat on the zero-sum idea, but as you've nicely pointed out, while the spins cancel, there is an awful lot of energy released.

    As to why most things in this universe tend to spin one way and not the other (i.e. why we have more matter than antimatter), one idea I've run across is the notion that the universe itself has spin, thus establishing the bias.

    For those more interested in spin as it pertains to particle and quantum mechanics, Wikipedia seems to have a decent article on the subject.

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  59. Let 'er rip! by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Forgive me, but your post read a bit differently for me --

    The enormous pressures in the core would crush the crude, macroscopic proteins in the chocolate into their component molecules, then heat and pressure would eventually overwhlem the degeneracy pressure, causing the entire gooey mass to break down into a seething mass of elementary particles. This event also causes observable evidence, in the form of a huge burst of...

    ...flatulence. At least, that's what the "fondant filling" in those durn Cadbury Creme Eggs always does to me. :-o

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  60. Re:Spin one way, matter -- spin the other, antimat by chrisb33 · · Score: 1

    The point I have is that everything has "spin". So does the anti-everything. If an electron has a spin of 1/2, then a positron would have the opposite of that -- or a spin of -1/2. Re-read the "spin direction" section of the wikipedia article - although an electron is a "spin 1/2" particle, it can have either spin up (+1/2) or spin down (-1/2). This is seen in basic chemistry, when electrons fill the orbital shells: two electrons can be at each level, one with each spin.
    So no, the difference between matter and antimatter is not related the spin.
  61. Re:Spin one way, matter -- spin the other, antimat by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Hm, memory is clearly failing me somewhere. :) Is it the magnetic moment then that's opposite, like what's found between neutrons and antineutrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antineutron)? I have a distinct recollection that the difference between electrons and positrons is more than just reversed charge, or otherwise chargeless particle and anti-particle pairs like for neutrons wouldn't work...

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  62. Re:Spin one way, matter -- spin the other, antimat by chrisb33 · · Score: 1

    While this is venturing into areas where I'm much less experienced, I believe that the antiparticle is related to the particle through charge conjugation, which inverts all the internal properties of the particle (e.g. quarks->antiquarks). The site I linked has some more detailed info if you're interested.

  63. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by kmac06 · · Score: 1

    Um...you got any better ideas of how to explain the empirical data? If not, then STFU.

  64. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by perturbed1 · · Score: 1
    Thanks for your comment.

    First of all, I do not think there is anything wrong with being a dark-matter "agnostic". I applaud you for not believing in "highly theoretical proofs". I would not either. And I am not aware that physics can be understood through them. Physics is what we observe and the method of understanding that observation.

    The problem I am still having problem conveying to you, I think is that 'dark matter' is not exactly a theory. It is rather a "solution" or "possible phenomena" that might be used to explain the observed results which have a high-statistics deviance from what we expect from the standard model of particle and astro physics. In some way, if you do not "believe" that the reason for such large deviations of observation from theory is not dark-*matter*-related but rather related to something else, such as *force* related, that's fine by me, I suppose. The problem with "messing" with forces rather than particles is that, well, forces effect quite a few things and so, you fix a problem but generall end up making another on the other side of the theoretical/observation universe.

    My problem with the general public conception of dark matter or for that matter, most physical concepts, is that there is very little awareness of what is "observed" versus what is theorized. There are lots of astrophysical data that shows large deviations from what is expected. If you add in dark-matter, well, these deviations become trivial to explain. (No, the math there is really not *that* bad! Dont let people scare you -- if you are interested, try reading some papers.) The problem is that Nature is asking/forcing us to add something to the mixture. Dark matter, unlike Dark energy, was not cooked up by theorists, but rather forced on them, by experimental evidence. Now. maybe, just maybe, although very unlikely, there is another way to explain away the observed effects by changing how "forces" in nature act in some smart way. Again, I can not imagine how -- and yes, such theories require serious amounts of maths and ridiculous amounts of hand-waving to get around the problems they create while solving others!

    The reason that so many people these days think that there is dark matter is that dark matter fits perfectly to the data from several astronomical epochs and from very different observational methods. The largest evidence comes from the CMB (Cosmic Microwave Background) which was when the universe was at about 300,000K so pretty young. Now, the supernova evidence which is higher by the day, spans through about half of the life of the universe. Observations are pushing back towards earlier and earlier times in the universe. The observed galactic rotational curves are from (approximately) current time of the universe. Thinkers of dark matter see that these nearly cover the whole 14 billion years of evolution of the universe and leave very little wiggle room for other theories.

    Maybe you could say that dark matter has been hyped to give particle physicists something to discover at the LHC, the most expensive physics experiment to date. Certainly, if observed phenomena is due to dark matter, well, then LHC should discover the naughty particle which is at the heart of this. That would be a direct detection, but would than need further confirmation that this naughty particle is what accounts for a large fraction of the universe. Any experimental booklet will tell you that the first goal of the LHC is to find the Higgs and the next one is to find a dark matter candidate. If the LHC can find this particle, other observational particle physics experiments will have the further chance to change or tune their experiments to confirm that this is indeed true. So stay an agnostic! Hopefully, you will be convinced when and if the LHC discovers a particle which fits the bill... I am an experimental particle physicist working on an LHC experiment and I spend most of my time, thinking of how to find such a particle...

    (and sorry about my English which sometimes fails me after a long and tiring day at work.)

  65. Quite simple really by bluFox · · Score: 1

    Neutrinos effects (Their interaction with matter) were detected after they were predicted.
    but in this case the dark matter is the theory used to 'justify' the results.

    Also the other difference is that the neutrino interactions were detected in Earth, and is
    repeatable in a controlled environment, while the dark matter effects are detected in faraway galaxies.
    (which is what the GP is pointing out by asking for its detection in earth).

    --
    ~561
  66. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by DerWulf · · Score: 1

    Who cares 'where' it is? If it's true that the only known properties of dark matter are 'exterts gravitiy' and 'except for exerting gravitity it isn't at all like normal matter' then all you have is a crutch that adjustes a faulty models to fit observations. How much you can detail that crutch really doesn't matter if you can't answer the important questions like: what does this dark matter consist of? how does it react to normal matter? In short, what is this dark matter?

    --

    ___
    No power in the 'verse can stop me
  67. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by wanerious · · Score: 1

    A necessary first step in determining what something is made of is to first determine where it is. Last year, when the distribution of dark matter in colliding clusters was found, it helped us understand how "collisionless" the stuff is and what it might be (and what it couldn't be) made of. So far, what we know for sure is that it interacts gravitationally with other matter. We've got to know where it is and how it's distributed to find out more. Does it have any effect on light passing through it other than gravitation? We'd need to know if it is or isn't in the way of a distant galaxy to find out.

  68. Actually the Earth radiates more energy! by weber · · Score: 1
    However, Earth's infrared glowing is of course due to the sun's fusion output. Ie, Earth is in equilibrium, where it radiates as a blackbody the same amount of energy it that it absorbs from the sun.

    Actually the Earth radiates more energy than it gets from the Sun! The radioactive isotopes inside the Earth (along with tidal forces) give rise to heat, which keeps the Earth warm beneath the crust. This also (among other things) prevents the sea from sinking into the Earth.

    I'm a physicist, though not a geo-physicist, so I apologize for the lack of detail.

  69. Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have often wondered if efforts were underway to falsify dark matter theory in a laboratory

    Many falsifications in cosmology can be done much more cheaply on paper. We have a great deal of observational data which is taken to be real and physical. Hypotheses which make predictions of things we should see in current data but don't, are taken to be nonphysical. One branch of theoretical cosmology is applied mathematics that seeks out implications of hypotheses not initially understood by the people who initially advanced them, and this is used as a way of sorting out the not-yet-observed (maybe wrong) from the outright not-observed (wrong) predictions, and checking that the agreement between the hypothesis and observational data is correct.

    There's nothing really called "dark matter theory" -- there is a hypothesis that unseen matter accounts for the curvature of spacetime on large structure scales (galaxies, groups of galaxies, The Great Wall, and so forth) that cannot be explained by visible matter. The nature of the unseen matter is also the subject of some speculation, and current work in the area is trying to arrive at a set of qualities it must possess in order to match our distant observations to the physical reality of our local environment.

    The hardest problem is in the invisibility -- ordinary baryonic matter interacts with photons (scatter, absorption, reemission, and emission), whereas the unseen matter does none of this at any recognizable scale (and thus is called "dark").

    At the scale of galaxies, dark matter is interesting because it does clearly deform spacetime, as does normal baryonic matter. The deformations, moreover, are not localized as they are in the case of stars -- the dark matter is diffuse, like a gas cloud. There is also observational evidence (from WMAP and Sloane) for the Lambda-CDM hypothesis, which holds that the dark matter is nonthermalized and collisionless, is at most dustlike in grain size, and is non-baryonic.

    Experimental evidence (your "lab proof") requires a better understanding of the observed-in-the-sky qualities of dark matter, so that it can be related in terms of quantum mechanics, since QM people are already exploring interactions of normally-bound particles at energy levels that lead to differently-bound arrangements; taking advantage of this to would be efficient and practical. There is of course already work in this area, which is made a bit easier since Lambda-CDM proponents are by necessity gauge theorists as well.

    Dark matter may be hadrons that are assembled in ways that do not experience the strong nuclear force. Alternatively, it may be bosonic in nature, either directly (Higgs) or through a light supersymmetrical partner. Many supersymmetry models have neutralinos as an emergent particle, and many of these could plausibly explain cold dark matter. Neutralinos are amenable to observation through their annihilations both in terms of gamma ray signatures and in terms of direct low temperature sensing in terrestrial equipment. There is also the somewhat related Axion hypothesis from QCD, which is undergoing in-lab testing using magnetic resonance microwave emission (to convert axions to its partner photons) and magnetic high-flux photon capture (which removes microwave photons from a mixed stream of such photons and axions). This work has already ruled out a range of properties with substantial observational implications incompatible with Lambda-CDM (for instance, axions cannot be partnered with photons with energies of microelectronvolt ranges).

    There are even more exotic hypotheses, some of which resemble attempts to use GR as a unifying theory (from the Einstein-Rosen strong field deformation work). In essence, interactions currently studied in quantum mechanics can (possibly) be modeled using spacetime deformations, leaving gravity as the Grand Unifying Force. These scalar-tensor frameworks are awkward and make people nervous about name-calling, but s