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Sunken Treasure Worth $500 Million Found Off England
An anonymous reader writes "In a modern day (and underwater) version of Indiana Jones, the AP is reporting that Odyssey Marine Exploration has recovered an estimated $500 Million in colonial coins from a 400 year old shipwreck in the Atlantic. The exact location of the wreck is still undisclosed. Odyssey is a for-profit, publicly traded company. 'In seeking exclusive rights to that site, an Odyssey attorney told a federal judge last fall that the company likely had found the remains of a 17th-century merchant vessel that sank with valuable cargo aboard, about 40 miles off the southwestern tip of England. A judge granted those rights Wednesday. In keeping with the secretive nature of the project dubbed ''Black Swan,'' Odyssey also is not discussing details of the coins, such as their type, denomination or country of origin. Bruyer said he observed a wide variety of coins that probably were never circulated. He said the currency was in much better condition than artifacts yielded by most shipwrecks of a similar age. The coins -- mostly silver pieces -- could fetch several hundred to several thousand dollars each, with some possibly commanding much more, he said.'"
what stops courts in other countries from giving other companies the right to also go salvaging for whatever is to be found there?
Phase 1. Treasure
Phase 2. ???
Phase 3. Stop Global Warming
Only now does it become obvious that what we needed were more pirates.
...that pirates are better than ninjas. You never get to read about ninja treasure found underwater !
What's to stop someone from just waiting until they leave port then following the ship/boat?
Wonder how they stop that one suspicious cabin cruiser that keeps tailing them from port to salvage site.
Maybe some kind of court order or injunction..what if another takes its place..
I'd imagine the easiest way would be to lure these stalkers into international waters then sink them with the cannons.
Yaaarrrr!
If the wreck was 40 miles off the English coast, it should in English, or possibly French, territorial waters. So why ask a US judge?
Goodness knows. If BBC Radio is to be believed, the nearest country seems to be the UK. And the ship that sank was English (dating back to before the existance of the UK). But the salvage company are American. And the treasure was nicked by the English from the Spanish. Who presumaby nicked the original Ag/Au from the native South Americans before making it into coins. So why it is a federal Judge who gets to decide who can salvage the stuff, I don't know. Because it is a US company, I suppose.
I'm not quite getting it. Leaving aside the difficulties of shooting, who would stand in for the evil Nazis? I suppose they could have the Taliban in scuba gear.
ccalam - acoustic versions of new songs.
This is a travesty. This centuries-old sunken treasure is of immeasurable cultural and archaeological value. That the contents of this ship are to be handed over to private corporation to be auctioned off to the highest bidder like so many pork bellies is an insult to human acheivement.
This is just another spadeful to the existing mountain of evidence of the crucial need for copyright reform in today's digital age.
Yeah you could follow them, but there are hundreds if not thousands of these modern day pirate types that go looking for lost treasures of pirates of old. So you'd still be taking a huge chance.
I'm willing to bet that anyone who spends enough money on gear and time to go tracking down treasures worth that much and finally finds one isn't about to share it with some noob that follows them around. Pirates and those that seek their lost treasure probably aren't the sharing type. Think pillage etc...
As far as where the treasure ends up in international seas, I'm sure these guys are fast at what they do and making a case against them will be hard. The crime scene is under several hundred feet of water. Probably most countries have more pressing issues to deal with when it comes to their naval fleets. Picking on pirates just doesn't seem to be worth the trouble. Its not like they're running drugs.
just mho though. ask my sister she's the one with the law degree.
Not that I have anything against pirates. ~wink~ I'm just more of a ninja type lady!
~WBGG~ "And I'm so sad like a good book I can't put this Day Back a sorta fairytale with you" ~Tori Amos
Apparently, the ZEUS ROV is used by Odyssey Marine Exploration in the search for artifacts. It weighs 7.3 tonnes (in air) and is 3.2 metres long, and it can operate down to depths of 2500 metres.
It was originally designed for the maintenance of deep-ocean fibre optic cables, and has manipulators and high-resolution video feeds that allow items to be handled with great precision
http://shipwreck.net/zeus/
Indiana Jones would've put that shit in a Museum, not paid dividends to his shareholders.
Here's a partial write-up from Motley Fool . com: http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2003/08/19/s triking-investment-gold.aspx?vstest=search_042607_ linkdefault
from 2003:
"Odyssey does not have enough assets to list on the Nasdaq National Market, so it trades on the highly speculative Bulletin Board exchange, a place investors should all but categorically avoid. We all dream of finding a hidden gem cheap and riding it to riches, but you're much more likely to find your fortune on the Nasdaq or NYSE, trading in double digits.
We're looking at Odyssey today as an exception, because it's August, half of you are on vacation, and this company has a heck of a fun story -- but all the fun is in the treasure hunting, not the stock.
Like flotsam (or a dead fish), the stock has drifted without purpose from moon to moon, just waiting for a current to carry it. In July, Odyssey announced the discovery of an unnamed steamer, and over the next month speculators lifted the shares from $1.50 to $2.95. After news of the SS Republic broke last weekend, Odyssey's stock opened Monday above $5, valuing the company at $140 million -- a price rivaling the maximum value of the discovery."
Now the stock is over $8.
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
Presumably $500m is due to the historical value of the coins, not their mass. How do they go about making sure counterfeits are not slipped in? I would think that modern metallurgy is (IMNAM) advanced enough to fabricate any desired ratio isotopes in an alloy. Smells like Pump and Dump to me...
This is no map. It looks like...dancing lessons.
The world always seems brighter when you've just made something that wasn't there before. - Neil Gaiman
The coins -- mostly silver pieces -- could fetch several hundred to several thousand dollars each, with some possibly commanding much more, he said.
Not if there are thousands of them. Scarcity adds value. Hmmm 40 miles of the coast of England and they seek jurisdiction in a US courtroom? Sounds like a job for the SBS...
This is all guesswork on my part from bits and pieces I've picked up, but at 40 miles from the UK, the UK government has no jurisdiction. The ship sank hundreds of years ago, so has no actual owners (and if I understand it, a ship abandoned or sunk in international waters has no owners anyway). I think international treaties essentially have a "finders keepers" rule for wrecks, but national law may still require companies to go through some legal processes to prove that they were the first people there and they do actually have salvage rights.
It's only a matter of time before they realise the treasure is cursed and they have to go out and fight Johnny Depp. Then stab Orlando Bloom.
So I guess it isn't all bad news.
Admiralty law, established by treaties that just about every country with a coastline are parties to.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Yeah I wondered why so many coins would be worth so much because it'd drive down collectibility by flooding the market. I'm with #1, the metal must have some value. I'm sure some coins will be purchased by collectors. The rest will end up melted down for their materials value? Of course #3 could easily be part of it. Never underestimate the marketing ability of a blockbuster film and greedy corporations.
Why are the ninjas taking so long? Is there a run on hamburgers this morning?
~WBGG~ "And I'm so sad like a good book I can't put this Day Back a sorta fairytale with you" ~Tori Amos
"Weighs" IIRC is an acceptable substitute for measuring the mass.
What will you say, "it masses 7.3 tonnes?"
Indiana Jones seemed to be more out there to uncover history for the world, and to keep artifacts out of the hands of private owners.
> I'm sure this would extend to UK waters.
The coins weren't found in UK waters.
a ship abandoned or sunk in international waters has no owners anyway
Unless it is a war grave. In that case, the ship is forever owned by the government of the country that it sailed for, or its internationally recognised sucessor, no matter whose waters the wreck is located in. HMS Hood is property of the UK government, despite her position in international waters. KM Bismarck is property of the German government (I don't know which Germany would have been considered owner between 1945 and 1990, but it doesn't matter: either one would have been "done the trick").
Linux user since early January 1992.
Recovery of such artifacts are covered by either national or international law depending on what kind of waters they are in.
Longstanding tradition has included a law of salvage and a law of finds. The law of salvage covers vessels in peril or goods lost that are still claimed by its owner. There is also a long tradition of ignoring the law of savage when nobody was around to enforce it. The law of finds covers vessels like this that have been abandoned by its owners. Such vessels become the property of the first person to start recovery attempts, although there are provisos when such discoveries are made in areas owned by others and would interfere with those others' rights (e.g. you can own treasure found on somebody else's property, but not necessarily if you have to dig it up).
The US and several other nations assert an exception for military wrecks; they claim that such wrecks remain the property of the flag country, even if sunken in territorial waters of other nations. Recovering artifacts from such ships is equivalen to boarding them.
Outside of those considerations, nations may regulate recovery activities in various zones of authority.
There are five legal navigational zones: inland waterways and lakes; territorial seas (12 mile limit); contiguous seas (24 mile limit); and the exclsuive economic zone (200 miles), and the high seas. Within the 12 mile limit, nations are sovereign. Within the twenty four mile limit, they may impose certain regulations, including retrieval of underwater artifacts of archaelogical or historical significance.
Outside the 24 mile limit, they may not regulate recovery of underwater artifacts AFAIK. The 200 mile EEZ only applies to natural resources.
So, given the apparent location of the wreck in question, the UK does not have authority to grant or deny ownership to anywone per se; but they can recognize title gained by private individuals under traditional international maritime law.
International conventions have been proposed to protect underwater culutral heritage -- human made artifacts and vessels that have been underwater for more than 100 years -- on the high seas. The conventions state that any archaeological wreck is to be managed with the benefit of humanity in mind; preferably preserved in situ, but otherwise disposed of in a way consistent with it being the common heritage of all humanity. These conventions have not been ratified by enough nations to be considered in force. The US is one of the nations which objects, primariliy because we claim sovereignty over military wrecks. I dont' doubt that the spirit of the new conventions are loathsome to the current administration's principles.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Argh, the term ye be lookin' fer is "pre-emptive nautical salvage experts" or simply "pastafarians."
An ounce of precious metal is going to be worth whatever the going rate for an ounce of precious metal is, plus any value it may have as an artifact. Given that being in the form of an antiquity is only going to increase the value of the metal, it generally doesn't make sense to melt down coins. In the case of silver, these days the going rate is only $13 an ounce, so the value is mostly coming from the the fact that they are old and rare, not that they are made of silver. Odyssey says they have 17 tons of coins, which sounds like a lot, but that's only 17 tons * 2200 lbs/ton *16 oz/lb * $13/oz = $7,779,200 worth of silver, which is 1.5% of what they say the haul is worth.
Supply and demand do dictate that bringing up 17 tons of colonial-era coins will decrease their rarity, which will tend to decrease their value. There are a few ways the company can offset this. First, they can control the flow of the coins onto the market so it doesn't end up flooded. If they sell just 5% of the coins per year for the next 20 years, or $25 million per year, the market will be able to absorb it much better than if they dump a half-billion on the market all at once. The other issue is, of course, that marketing. If the company can increase the demand for the coins by getting more people to look at rare coins either as a hobby or an investment, the value may not decrease that much, or could even increase.
Long term, Odyssey's biggest problem may be other wrecks. They plan on making this a business model, so they are looking at another wreck with half a billion worth of gold aboard, and looking into exploring several more wrecks, so they are going to keep bringing rare coins onto the market. And if that keeps making money, it will encourage copycat operations. Actually, Odyssey's business model isn't original either, the only difference between what they did, and the group who salvaged the Central America did, is that Odyssey had an IPO, whereas the Central America salvage company is not publicly traded. Ship of Gold and the Deep Blue Sea has a really excellent account of what went into the Central America salvage operation.
"Depending on what the treaties say, Odyssey Marine Exploration might have to turn over a chunk of the profits to England."
/. but one from the toronto star,
I didn't read the article linked to on
"But under the terms of an agreement, Odyssey will have to share any finds with the British government. The company will get 80 per cent of the first $45 million and about 50 per cent of proceeds thereafter."