Fan Fiction Writers Balk at FanLib.com

bill jackson writes "A couple of former Yahoo execs are trying to create the next MySpace by aggregating fanfiction on a website called FanLib. But the fanfic writers recognized that exploitation was written all over the idea and they've refused to participate. 'Instead of creating the Myspace of fanfic since the launch two weeks ago, FanLib.com sparked a white-hot Internet firestorm.The meltdown is a hard lesson in how not to conduct business on the Internet.But it's a firestorm of FanLib's own making because, in spite of the Yahoo pedigree (or maybe because of it), they plowed in like china shop bulls.'"

Comments

Oh fuck

[Richard McBeef]

The fanfic crowd is riled up. Everyone take cover!

Re:Oh fuck

[eln]

I expect a torrent of slash fanfic featuring Yahoo executives shortly.

Re:Oh fuck

[Itanshi]

http://kitesareevil.livejournal.com/257387.html?fo rmat=light
http://www.my2centences.com/my2c_new/FanLib_info.p df

That is what we fanfic writers are upset about. The PDF is evidence and proof of their corporate ulterior motives and the first link explains a lot of this better than the given link and the connection between my2centences and fanlib.

Re:Oh fuck

[Rei]

They called the whole thing a "marketing service". They're not looking for writers. They're looking for, "OMG, you have to read my new Harry Potter story!" so that people talk about HP more and they can make more money. "Collaborative storytelling" is just a gimmick to try and get more people to join, and the "staying within the lines" comment is so that there's not a bunch of stories of Harry hooking up with Snape and Dumbledore.

Trust me, stories written collaboratively by a bunch of novices are *not* getting on the air, anywhere. A story written by one novice is bad enough. Many different novices? Don't be silly. :)

This concept is really a bit of daydream fantasy on the part of Kites Are Evil and other commenters that belies a complete misunderstanding of the publishing and screenwriting industries. These are ridiculously demand-driven industries. Supply is way, way, way too common. The vast majority of writers -- *good*, *established* writers -- make very little. Some book that you like, if it's not written by one of the "really big names", probably is written by an author who has second job that pays part of the bills. To find new writers, agents go through literally *thousands* of queries before they pick up a client, and even then, there's no guarantee that the agent will be able to sell the work.

Nobody wants to publish garbage. Sadly, they have to turn down a darned lot of stuff that isn't garbage at all, simply because there's too much supply.

When a famous/popular writer is overloaded, or wants to go on to other work, indeed, other writers will fill in for them. However, these are generally established writers. Oftentimes, they're written on contract. The publisher *approached them* with the idea.

The whole notion that publishers want a bunch of garbage written by amateurs -- even worse, by a bunch of amateurs working together -- when the market is already flooded, and there are plenty of writers who would gladly sell out for extra cash... it's just silly.

Anyways, keep writing your fanfic. :)

LJ

[Turn-X Alphonse]

What about the recent news of the LJ fanfic writers flare up? LJ have deleted a massive amount of accounts and well known communities (some 5 years and older) over night with no explination or reason given.

Re:LJ

[minkowski]

This is the most comprehensive and informative link I've seen on that. And Boingboing picked the story up this morning. I heard from a friend in a fanfic community there that they were deleting journals just because the keywords "rape" or "incest" were used in the interests field. So the journals of some rape victims and incest survivors were suddenly terminated.

I don't know why slashdot hasn't picked it up. This place is so slow. Digg and Reddit already have stories about it which are getting voted up and should be on the front page by this evening

Re:LJ

[Knara]

Because slashdot isn't well known for "breaking" news. It's an aggregator of news that has already been published and sourced. Moreso the better, if you ask me, since we don't have to deal with Digg/Reddit's "get it first and vote for me!" culture.

Re:LJ

[mdwh2]

See here.

And not just fanfic communities, I've seen adult/fetish communities also suspended, and support sites for survivors of abuse may be at risk (since they list keywords such as "incest" or "rape"...).

LiveJournal has yet to make a statement, but I find the quote from Six Apart's CEO given in the article rather worrying:

"Our decision here was not based on pure legal issues. It was based on what community we want to build and what we think is appropriate within that community and what's not."

Righto, so Six Apart are saying it doesn't matter if it's entirely legal, they're going to start banning journals based on what they think is "appropriate".

Re:LJ

[Ambitwistor]

"Our decision here was not based on pure legal issues. It was based on what community we want to build and what we think is appropriate within that community and what's not."

Righto, so Six Apart are saying it doesn't matter if it's entirely legal, they're going to start banning journals based on what they think is "appropriate". No, they aren't saying "it doesn't matter if it's entirely legal". They're saying the decision was not based on legal issues, i.e., it wasn't just because they were afraid of being legally sued. In fact, they can legally ban journals based on what content they deem is "appropriate", as long as such a ban doesn't violate their stated Terms of Service.

Re:LJ

[ElderKorean]

Because slashdot isn't well known for "breaking" news. It's an aggregator of news that has already been published and sourced.

Though slashdot is well known for breaking sites that happen to have breaking news.

Bad fanfiction

[Anonymous Coward]

Let the bad fanfiction about the bad fanfiction site begin.

It never ends.

I hope they write their fanfic...

[AKAImBatman]

...better than they write their complaints. I can barely make heads or tails of the linked article. The "Read More" link isn't much better. From what I can tell, Fanlib is big and corporate, which scares away people who want to write slash fiction. Oooookaaay.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[eln]

If the Internet doesn't exist to host Harry Potter slash fanfic, then what the hell is it for?

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[Bent Mind]

I found this in one of the comments:

While fan-fiction has been labeled as such since the original Star Trek series phenomenon, it has actually existed for far longer in the form of colorful histories about real or imagined people. (I would point to the Arthurian legends, Shakespeare and the Homeric epics, to name but a very few.) It is a fundamental form of recorded expression that has spawned both masterpieces and drivel since the beginning of history, and we will lose much if it is ever actually declared illegal. Quite apart from the disrespect evinced by Mr. Williams, many people are worried that FanLib's efforts will bring down a lawsuit that could result in such a ruling. Perhaps if we lived in a society whose approach to intellectual property was more balanced, a commercial fan-fiction site might have some merit... I can understand their fear of attention. I remember, back when I was a teenager, a friend had his computer seized. He ran a BBS that offered up/downloads. There were several images, drawn by fans, of Garfield the cat. It's been a very long time. However, I believe they got him on trademark infringement. I'd imagine that fan fiction writers are subject to the same laws.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[MenTaLguY]

The commenter you quoted understates his point -- not only are collectively-authored myths and Shakespeare's adaptations a human norm, but even what we would properly call "fan fiction" today has a longer history than many people suppose. I first realized this when someone pointed me to this book about the widespread nature of what could only be called 18th-century fanfic.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[DarkOx]

Man NC17 that must have been one old Star Cruzier I mean hell they were already up to NC1701 in the seriess. Thats like 1684 ships prior to Enterprise.

I had no idea that most of that stuff was by women

[drinkypoo]

If I had, I probably would have mocked it less when I was young, dumb, and running from hole to hole like a golfer on crack.

They tried to herd cats

[sehlat]

and got themselves clawed.

I suspect an awful lot of the negative reaction comes from three factors:

1. Membership in the site would certainly have a "We own your postings." clause in the Terms of Service.

2. *And* a "We reserve the right to censor anything you post we don't like." clause.

and the cherry on top:

3. An unwritten consequence of (1) would be: "If it's really good, we'll use it to make money. Thanks suckers." clause.

And just remember, in Hollywood, "Trust us." translates to "F**k you."

Re:They tried to herd cats

[Derekloffin]

You know, although I'd be a little ticked about losing money, if someone would take my fanfiction and turn it into a real show I'd be overall very happy. Of course, they'd probably butcher it, but hey, I could still claim bragging rights.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[pla]

I suspect an awful lot of the negative reaction comes from three factors: 1. Membership in the site would certainly have a "We own your postings." clause in the Terms of Service.

"At FanLib, we expect you to post the content you create ("Your Content") on the website. You keep any and all rights to Your Content. FanLib does not own any rights to Your Content."


2. *And* a "We reserve the right to censor anything you post we don't like." clause.

"FanLib encourages and supports active and open publication of fan fiction in a lawful and civil manner. We do not monitor the FanLib Website for inappropriate content or conduct"

(The only "we reserve the right to remove..." they give as part of that applies to outright illegal content).


3. An unwritten consequence of (1) would be: "If it's really good, we'll use it to make money. Thanks suckers." clause.

"You authorize FanLib to make, reproduce, distribute, and display these summaries or descriptions on FanLib.com or through its services but not for any other purpose unrelated to FanLib.com. If you mark any of Your Content private, we will not promote and/or showcase Your Content."



I consider myself about as anti-corporate as they come, but I really can't see the fuss over FanLib's TOS. It pretty much addresses every concern you raised.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[SkipRosebaugh]

Yeah, that's the face they present to the writers.

Check out the face they present to the publishers: http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/005131.html

Re:They tried to herd cats

[Original Replica]

"I got fucked out of a $100 million box office movie script" isn't bragging rights, it's suicide watch.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[cathector]

but if you follow the link above leads us to a link to this page,
which contains this text:

"If you're looking for the FanLib brochure, it has been removed.
Published in 2004, the brochure contained outdated information for special collaborative events."

so saying that this is the face they present to publishers may not be w/o controversy.

I Don't Doubt the Story...

[Pantero Blanco]

...but the author of the article seems to be writing for an unrelated reason, and pulling some of her info out of thin air.

Fanfiction dates back to Star Trek: The Original Series (ST-TOS) when fans published their own "fanzines" - anthologies of stories, complete with artwork.Written almost exclusively by women, fanfic is the fore-mother of user-generated content.

They distributed ads with adolescent boy appeal that the women hated.

The second quote links to someone's LiveJournal, and it's not the only one. This seems like a Cyber Sister storm to me.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[drinkypoo]

The second quote links to someone's LiveJournal, and it's not the only one. This seems like a Cyber Sister storm to me.

Yes, that is quite a problem with bloggers in general. Most of them are stupid enough to think that you will give one tenth of one shit about a link to a blog that no one outside of their social circle cares about.

If I'm providing a link about tech, I don't send people to a fucking slashdot comment - unless it's full of good links.

Linking to some fanfic author's blog is roughly the precise antithesis of reputability. And I don't want to unduly hurt anyone's feelings here, but I have two major problems with fanfic in general. The first one is that most of it is shit. Most of the people writing that stuff clearly weren't paying attention in their English classes in grammar school. The second one is that these people should grow a fucking imagination. It's pathetic enough when you have a show that is so endlessly officially rehashed. Fanfic is way beyond the pale there. The primary example is Star Trek - that show ran out of ideas before the first series was even over, and you could detect ToS stories recycled in ToS!

But what the hell, I don't have a problem with the stuff existing - only with its self-importance. It's not important to anyone outside that particular social scene, except for various studios wishing they could leave a smoking hole in the ground where authors of slash fanfic once stood.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[dctoastman]

You are so wrong.

All of fanfic is shit. Not most. Other than that, I agree whole-heartedly.

Consider this, none of those authors are now or will ever be published by a reputable publishing house (note, I say reputable, vanity presses will press any piece of shit).

Fan fiction is the realm of the third or fourth rate writer. They are neither well-versed in their native language to make it interesting nor imaginative enough to create original stories. That is why most fan fiction descends into softcore pornography, over the top violence, and self-insertion. Fan fiction is an obsessive stalker's letter to something that has no physical manifestation. Each story a shrine to their mindless devotion to the topic.
This is why it fails. Fan fiction isn't about the story, character development, or any sort of philosophy. Fan fiction is about how one person views a franchise. A projection of ego onto the objects of their desire.

Don't know about quality

[Shadow Wrought]

But these are the numbers off the front page for quantity:

1. Harry Potter (514)
2. Stargate: SG-1 (159)
3. CSI (153)
4. Supernatural (153)
5. Stargate: Atlantis (140)
6. Star Wars (136)
7. Buffy: The Vampire Slayer (135)
8. Battlestar Galactica: 2003 (115)
9. X-Men: The Movie (107)
10. Original Fandom (103)
11. Thunderbirds (94)
12. West Wing (92)
13. Lord of the Rings (86)
14. Gilmore Girls (85)
15. Star Trek: Enterprise (84)
16. Pirates of the Caribbean (76)
17. X-Men: Evolution (62)
18. Sailor Moon (61)
19. Friends (60)
20. Naruto (53)

2500+ odd stories in 2 weeks certainly makes one wonder if some of the fanfictioners didn't get the memo that they were supposed to be ticked.

Re:Don't know about quality

[Reality Master 101]

2500+ odd stories in 2 weeks certainly makes one wonder if some of the fanfictioners didn't get the memo that they were supposed to be ticked.

That doesn't totally suck, I guess, but it's worth nothing that fanfiction.net has almost 300,000 stories -- in the Harry Potter category alone (granted, that's over many years).

I wonder how much advertising money they spent for that 2,500.

Re:Don't know about quality

[Phanatic1a]

Looking at that list, I can't figure out how these execs are thinking they're going to be able to dodge copyright issues. I mean, YouTube has it tough enough, with the RIAA sending takedown notices for short clips that simply include copyright music playing in the background, but each and every one of those stories is a derivative work of a well-known existing and maintained copyright.

NB: I'm not saying fanfic is all a copyright violation. There's plenty of well-known fanfic about characters whose copyright has long since lapsed, or those for whom copyright never existed in the first place. Hell, real respected authors like Tim Powers and Guy Gavriel Kay make a living writing what is essentially historical fanfic. But if you have a site with 2500 stories on it, and those 2500 stories are all fanfic involving Harry Potter, the X-Men, and Friends, you are going to get hammered by the rightsholders.

It was a dark and stormy afternoon

[Anonymous Coward]

ScuttleMonkey was manning the Slashdot queue. "Fan Fiction Writers Balk at FanLib.com" suddenly appeared amid a sea of more interesting stories, but ScuttleMonkey knew this was his next frontpager. He always knew, even before he was an editor. Minutes before the story was set to go live, CmdrTaco saw it and ran, if you can call it that, down the hallway. "STOP!" he screamed. "This is a terrible story! You must remove it." ScuttleMonkey pulled out a knife, stabbing Taco in the heart before he had a chance to react. "Remove that, Taco!" cried ScuttleMonkey as he watched the story go live.

How is this "exploiting" exactly?

[antifoidulus]

They created a service that if people use would make them a profit, and if people don't, then oh well. The only real beef in the article seems to be about some overzealous advertising, which can be annoying but hardly exploitative. It's not like they are chaining fanfiction writers to their desks, forcing them to churn out 20 Harry Potter fanfics a day or else they will be deported.....Can we please lay off the overly emotional language?

Re:How is this "exploiting" exactly?

[Scutter]

You apparently missed the part of the brochure they sent as marketing. The part that says "Managed and Moderated to the Max" or the part that says "Full monitoring and management of submissions" or perhaps even that part that says "Completed work is just 1st draft to be polished by the pros".

In other words, fans take something they love, write extensions to it for their own not-for-profit amusement, hand it to FanLib, and proceed to get completely exploited. Oh, but in return they'll maybe get a free t-shirt or something. No thanks. Clearly, they have no concept of what fanfic is and are completely out of touch with writers in general.

We haven't heard from everyone...

[Chairboy]

Quite frankly, I won't form an opinion until we've heard an official response from the most influential contingent in fan-fiction:

Furries.

Without their unique insight into subjects like "Kirk romances a full sized Gadget from Chip n' Dale's Rescue Rangers" or "What would happen if the crew of the NX-01 were anthropomorphic animals and there's maybe a crossover with the X-Men why not?", we would have no way of knowing what we did and didn't like about the various trek series, and, by extension, an online repository of stories.

So count me out until the "Commander Troi as a sexy lemur" crowd weighs in, THEN I'll know what to think.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

This is why you shouldn't publish just any damn thing you write when you're stoned on catnip.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[ettlz]

troi is a counselor, not a commander...please turn in your geek card and head over to the cliche-poll.

Troi attained the rank of Commander. Anyhoo, I'd like... no, I'm just curious to know what a "sexy lemur" is.

You see, I've seen a whole bunch of lemurs.

Mostly in captivity.

Not one of them turned me on.

Correction

[lastchance_000]

I'm sure the lawyers for the actual copyright holders would have something to say about #3.

Re:LinuxJournal?

[Migraineman]

Man, I gotta cut down on the caffeine and get more sleep. I was really confused about why the fanfic folks were having their LinuxJournal forum accounts terminated.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic... (meaning)

[WillAffleckUW]

If the Internet doesn't exist to host Harry Potter slash fanfic, then what the hell is it for?

Why, Furries, of course. That plus Naruto.

I don't know what they're worried about...

[writermike]

This marks the first legitimate shot for a Kirk/Spock TV pilot.

Star Trek
The Search for Spock's Nipple

Re:I don't know what they're worried about...

[PhxBlue]

I'm sending you the bill for the three gallons of brain detergent it will take to get that image out of my head.

Getting One's Dose of Internet Fiction

[Nom du Keyboard]

When I want my dose of Internet fiction, the stuff that's fun to read yet what publishers won't touch, I go to the following:

Stories OnLine
The Pendorwright Projects
usenet:assm

And none of this is lining any corporation's pockets off the sweat of the authors.

Jaw droppingly bad marketing

[rinkjustice]

FanLib looks like it's only purpose is to exploit, control and profit from the writings of fanfiction writers, people who only want a forum to show their work and express their enthusiasm. The marketing strategy pdf proclaims it will be "turnkey entertainment marketing service" where converted works will become "fanisodes". That's right, "turnkey".

Other choice lines include:

• a mass audience collaborate democratically in a fun online game that you control
• Massive Viral Marketing
• As with a coloring book, players must "stay within the lines"
• Restrictive player's terms-of-service protects your rights and property

I'm currently majoring in business marketing , and I can't believe the misanthropical tone and language of their marketing plan. It's as cynical and exploitive as I've ever read.

Fanfiction.net?

[Shinra]

I've occasionally posted stuff @ fanfiction.net, what makes this
new website significantly different?

Re:Where's that troll when you need it?

[Eli Gottlieb]

TROOOOLLLL! Trooooollll in the dungeons!!!!!!!!!

And I revoke the geek license of anyone who doesn't get that joke.

This is why I don't have a journal...

[Ayanami Rei]

...on a website I don't control.

Invariably, when a site gets popular, it attracts the attention of people who would like to ruin your shit. Things like this happen.

Don't rely on third parties if you have speech you want to protect.