Fan Fiction Writers Balk at FanLib.com

bill jackson writes "A couple of former Yahoo execs are trying to create the next MySpace by aggregating fanfiction on a website called FanLib. But the fanfic writers recognized that exploitation was written all over the idea and they've refused to participate. 'Instead of creating the Myspace of fanfic since the launch two weeks ago, FanLib.com sparked a white-hot Internet firestorm.The meltdown is a hard lesson in how not to conduct business on the Internet.But it's a firestorm of FanLib's own making because, in spite of the Yahoo pedigree (or maybe because of it), they plowed in like china shop bulls.'"

Comments

Oh fuck

[Richard McBeef]

The fanfic crowd is riled up. Everyone take cover!

Re:Oh fuck

[eln]

I expect a torrent of slash fanfic featuring Yahoo executives shortly.

Re:Oh fuck

[Opportunist]

Just did a search on some pages, no .torrents.

Why did you have to get my hopes up?

Before you flame me, be honest, who here wouldn't even PAY to see some execs being maimed and mauled?

Re:Oh fuck

[Rufty]

Gentlemen and ladies. Nerds and ne'er-do-wells. *This* is why we need a "-1 GoatSE" mod option.
I feel ... tainted.

Re:Oh fuck

[Itanshi]

http://kitesareevil.livejournal.com/257387.html?fo rmat=light
http://www.my2centences.com/my2c_new/FanLib_info.p df

That is what we fanfic writers are upset about. The PDF is evidence and proof of their corporate ulterior motives and the first link explains a lot of this better than the given link and the connection between my2centences and fanlib.

Re:Oh fuck

[Itanshi]

Regrettably the second link has died, Well, they removed it. They were exclaiming the great business opportunity it was to media types to get scripts and such from the fans as a cheaper alternative to the writer guilds or whatever they are. They mean to pay us peanuts as scab replacements for the actual screen writers! Stop thinking about the measily fanfic writers and think about the big picture, the media means to use us to save money. Corporate TV may all end up written by the fans! which might not be a bad thing to me, but to you, 'oh the horrors'

Re:Oh fuck

[Rei]

They called the whole thing a "marketing service". They're not looking for writers. They're looking for, "OMG, you have to read my new Harry Potter story!" so that people talk about HP more and they can make more money. "Collaborative storytelling" is just a gimmick to try and get more people to join, and the "staying within the lines" comment is so that there's not a bunch of stories of Harry hooking up with Snape and Dumbledore.

Trust me, stories written collaboratively by a bunch of novices are *not* getting on the air, anywhere. A story written by one novice is bad enough. Many different novices? Don't be silly. :)

This concept is really a bit of daydream fantasy on the part of Kites Are Evil and other commenters that belies a complete misunderstanding of the publishing and screenwriting industries. These are ridiculously demand-driven industries. Supply is way, way, way too common. The vast majority of writers -- *good*, *established* writers -- make very little. Some book that you like, if it's not written by one of the "really big names", probably is written by an author who has second job that pays part of the bills. To find new writers, agents go through literally *thousands* of queries before they pick up a client, and even then, there's no guarantee that the agent will be able to sell the work.

Nobody wants to publish garbage. Sadly, they have to turn down a darned lot of stuff that isn't garbage at all, simply because there's too much supply.

When a famous/popular writer is overloaded, or wants to go on to other work, indeed, other writers will fill in for them. However, these are generally established writers. Oftentimes, they're written on contract. The publisher *approached them* with the idea.

The whole notion that publishers want a bunch of garbage written by amateurs -- even worse, by a bunch of amateurs working together -- when the market is already flooded, and there are plenty of writers who would gladly sell out for extra cash... it's just silly.

Anyways, keep writing your fanfic. :)

Re:Oh fuck

[Jesus_666]

If they want my creative output I have this awesome Sailor Moon/Dragonball/Captain Planet crossover* I'd like to sell them. Hey, it's not like it's not going to be an improvement over 90% of what's on TV now...


* Yes, it is as bad as it sounds and that's on purpose; I like trash. That and it was about damn time someone introduced a character called "Sailor Tuxedo Marsk".

Re:Oh fuck

[telesilly]

Evidence and proof? You are delusional. Digging up an old brochure from 2004 isn't proof of anything except your conspiracy paranoia. Get a life and knock off the whining. Maybe the fiction has become your reality.

Re:Oh fuck

[chronolith]

Waaayyy ahead of you. Willcest (Williamcest?) is already a stated pairing. Along with Pink Guy/Blue Guy.

Re:Oh fuck

[KDR_11k]

Oh, that depends entirely on the favourite fetish of the involved writer(s).

Re:Oh fuck

[CreatureComfort]

And yet, with all of what you state being true, the publishers still manage to only produce garbage. Well, OK, giving them the benefit of the doubt, judging by the last 10 fiction novels I've picked up as "New York Times' Best Sellers" at the airport, only 90% of what they are producing is utterly and completely irredeemable garbage.

Re:Oh fuck

[Rei]

If you define garbage as "your personal tastes", yes.
If you define garbage as "what doesn't sell", no.

Publishers stay in business by spotting a sales winner a mile away. That's not to say that the process is perfectly fair. For example, a house will often try to create an artificial blockbuster -- they decide what novel in a certain genre they feel has the best broad appeal, they bid it up (so the author gets a big advance), then promote the heck out of it. Meanwhile, another author with a great book that didn't quite make the cut of the few deciders at the house gets almost no promotion and a small advance. The first novel, with everyone talking about it, becomes a "must read" and they move millions of units. The second novel sells a few tens of thousand of copies, makes back its advance if it's lucky, and then fades into obscurity. All that the second author can do is hope for better luck next time.

LJ

[Turn-X Alphonse]

What about the recent news of the LJ fanfic writers flare up? LJ have deleted a massive amount of accounts and well known communities (some 5 years and older) over night with no explination or reason given.

Re:LJ

[minkowski]

This is the most comprehensive and informative link I've seen on that. And Boingboing picked the story up this morning. I heard from a friend in a fanfic community there that they were deleting journals just because the keywords "rape" or "incest" were used in the interests field. So the journals of some rape victims and incest survivors were suddenly terminated.

I don't know why slashdot hasn't picked it up. This place is so slow. Digg and Reddit already have stories about it which are getting voted up and should be on the front page by this evening

Re:LJ

[Knara]

Because slashdot isn't well known for "breaking" news. It's an aggregator of news that has already been published and sourced. Moreso the better, if you ask me, since we don't have to deal with Digg/Reddit's "get it first and vote for me!" culture.

Re:LJ

[Anonymous Coward]

This group of wannabe internet police have been responsible for a large amount of the shutdown groups lately.

Basically they mass report any user/group with certain keywords in their name.

They mainly focus on live journal but are beginning to harass other sites as well.

Re:LJ

[mdwh2]

See here.

And not just fanfic communities, I've seen adult/fetish communities also suspended, and support sites for survivors of abuse may be at risk (since they list keywords such as "incest" or "rape"...).

LiveJournal has yet to make a statement, but I find the quote from Six Apart's CEO given in the article rather worrying:

"Our decision here was not based on pure legal issues. It was based on what community we want to build and what we think is appropriate within that community and what's not."

Righto, so Six Apart are saying it doesn't matter if it's entirely legal, they're going to start banning journals based on what they think is "appropriate".

Re:LJ

[Ambitwistor]

"Our decision here was not based on pure legal issues. It was based on what community we want to build and what we think is appropriate within that community and what's not."

Righto, so Six Apart are saying it doesn't matter if it's entirely legal, they're going to start banning journals based on what they think is "appropriate". No, they aren't saying "it doesn't matter if it's entirely legal". They're saying the decision was not based on legal issues, i.e., it wasn't just because they were afraid of being legally sued. In fact, they can legally ban journals based on what content they deem is "appropriate", as long as such a ban doesn't violate their stated Terms of Service.

Re:LJ

[Eli Gottlieb]

We also don't have to deal with Digg's & (especially) Reddit's attitudes of "post obvious troll stories with no credible sources because you know everyone on the site agrees anyway." We have editors to post those, and everyone flames them for it.

Re:LJ

[iminplaya]

I don't know why slashdot hasn't picked it up

They had to save space for some guy named "McCain" something or other. It was like seeing an unfunny Max Headroom. Nothing is safe until true distributed networks come around.

Re:LJ

[ElderKorean]

Because slashdot isn't well known for "breaking" news. It's an aggregator of news that has already been published and sourced.

Though slashdot is well known for breaking sites that happen to have breaking news.

Re:LJ

[mdwh2]

Yes, that is what I thought he said. Just because they may have the "right" to doesn't mean it's a Good Thing that companies start imposing their moral views on what people can write about. (And it's also dubious in the case where people have paid for a service only to have the service revoked - yeah, yeah, I know they might say that in the TOS, but this seems to be very much like EULA terrority...)

If Slashdot did the same, I bet people would bitch about it here too.

Re:LJ

[indifferent children]

Because slashdot isn't well known for "breaking" news.

We won't have it first, but we'll re-post this 'news' more times than anybody! Let's see Digg beat that!

Re:LJ

[gordo3000]

I'd say there is a huge difference. the TOS of something you can read and are asked to before you pay for a service.

again, its worse you think this company is arbitrarily controling what people write. just because the NYtimes rejects a story doesn't mean you have become limited as a writer. It simply means you have a single place where you can publish your work saying they do not feel confortable with it.

maybe live journal doesn't want certain difficult topics on its site. I don't agree that its the right decision from my moral view point, but I don't think its correct for me to feel or attempt to require another group to feel comfortable publishing something I do.

Bad fanfiction

[Anonymous Coward]

Let the bad fanfiction about the bad fanfiction site begin.

It never ends.

I hope they write their fanfic...

[AKAImBatman]

...better than they write their complaints. I can barely make heads or tails of the linked article. The "Read More" link isn't much better. From what I can tell, Fanlib is big and corporate, which scares away people who want to write slash fiction. Oooookaaay.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[eln]

If the Internet doesn't exist to host Harry Potter slash fanfic, then what the hell is it for?

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[Liselle]

Err, haven't read much fanfic, have you?

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[AKAImBatman]

Actually, I used to read the Usenet archives of the Star Trek fanfic. (This was well over a decade ago.) When I ran out of fiction to read, I emailed the maintainer to find out why the FTP site wasn't being updated. He pointed me to the new archive on another site. What I found was that it was mostly overrun with NC17 "fiction", so I just stopped reading altogether.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[UncleTogie]

If the Internet doesn't exist to host Harry Potter slash fanfic, then what the hell is it for?
According to my fiance, it's for hosting semi-obscene Duran Duran fanfic.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[Bent Mind]

I found this in one of the comments:

While fan-fiction has been labeled as such since the original Star Trek series phenomenon, it has actually existed for far longer in the form of colorful histories about real or imagined people. (I would point to the Arthurian legends, Shakespeare and the Homeric epics, to name but a very few.) It is a fundamental form of recorded expression that has spawned both masterpieces and drivel since the beginning of history, and we will lose much if it is ever actually declared illegal. Quite apart from the disrespect evinced by Mr. Williams, many people are worried that FanLib's efforts will bring down a lawsuit that could result in such a ruling. Perhaps if we lived in a society whose approach to intellectual property was more balanced, a commercial fan-fiction site might have some merit... I can understand their fear of attention. I remember, back when I was a teenager, a friend had his computer seized. He ran a BBS that offered up/downloads. There were several images, drawn by fans, of Garfield the cat. It's been a very long time. However, I believe they got him on trademark infringement. I'd imagine that fan fiction writers are subject to the same laws.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a cold and windy night, the air was still and damp. A strange aroma arose from the streets below and he became nauseous, his hand slipping from the balcony rail. He made his way back inside his room, dizzy now he stood swaying for a moment. It was then that the fear came and he knew at once what he had to do. He ran into the bathroom and tore open the cabinet, grabbing the sleeping pills from the shelf he expertly flipped the top and downed the entire bottle. He Fell to the floor, clutching the bottle to his chest, convulsing, gurgling and foaming at the mouth. "A good thing I brought these sleeping pills" he thought and then the truth dawned, he hadn't brought any sleeping pills. "Oh shit", he thought.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[MenTaLguY]

The commenter you quoted understates his point -- not only are collectively-authored myths and Shakespeare's adaptations a human norm, but even what we would properly call "fan fiction" today has a longer history than many people suppose. I first realized this when someone pointed me to this book about the widespread nature of what could only be called 18th-century fanfic.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[DarkOx]

Man NC17 that must have been one old Star Cruzier I mean hell they were already up to NC1701 in the seriess. Thats like 1684 ships prior to Enterprise.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[Xiaran]

I hate to post a me too post, but I also used to read the same stuff you did. Some of it was quite good(I particularly recall a series about a federation ship going on a mission in an advanced prototype into borg space to collect info that could well have been edited into a fairly reasonable novel). Then it all seemed to go to hell with slash stuff... which really isnt my scene.

Its damn shame... maybe Ill google around to see if any of the good stuff is still around.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[AKAImBatman]

U.S.S. Cavalier!

I still have it printed out somewhere. Nebula of the Living Dead (name?) was really good too! :P

You can still find Cavalier (packed in an ancient .Z file) here: http://www.theworld.com/obi/Star.Trek.Stories/

Another favorite of mine was the one where Picard and Crusher's daughter (ok, that one was a bit of a stretch) commanded a later Enterprise. And Moriarty became the computer! (It was written before they resolved the Moriarty storyline on the show. :))

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[AKAImBatman]

You can still find the more story-driven stuff. Like everything else, fanfiction is 95% crapola. The good stuff is out there, and surprisingly not that hard to find, as long as you put a little effort into it.

If that 95% of crapola is slash fiction, I'd rather not wade through it if it's all the same to you. One of the advantages of the original alt.startrek.creative archive was that they didn't bother archiving any of the slash and adult-themed garbage.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[cibyr]

The Internet is for Porn

...and you actually had to ask!

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[g1zmo]

Probably quite a few more than that! How many iterations of each ship were there? 1701-A through D, etc..

Re:I hope they write their fanfic...

[sharkey]

Can't it be both?

I had no idea that most of that stuff was by women

[drinkypoo]

If I had, I probably would have mocked it less when I was young, dumb, and running from hole to hole like a golfer on crack.

They tried to herd cats

[sehlat]

and got themselves clawed.

I suspect an awful lot of the negative reaction comes from three factors:

1. Membership in the site would certainly have a "We own your postings." clause in the Terms of Service.

2. *And* a "We reserve the right to censor anything you post we don't like." clause.

and the cherry on top:

3. An unwritten consequence of (1) would be: "If it's really good, we'll use it to make money. Thanks suckers." clause.

And just remember, in Hollywood, "Trust us." translates to "F**k you."

Re:They tried to herd cats

[Derekloffin]

You know, although I'd be a little ticked about losing money, if someone would take my fanfiction and turn it into a real show I'd be overall very happy. Of course, they'd probably butcher it, but hey, I could still claim bragging rights.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[lastchance_000]

I'm the lawyers for the actual copyright holders would have something to say about #3.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[pla]

I suspect an awful lot of the negative reaction comes from three factors: 1. Membership in the site would certainly have a "We own your postings." clause in the Terms of Service.

"At FanLib, we expect you to post the content you create ("Your Content") on the website. You keep any and all rights to Your Content. FanLib does not own any rights to Your Content."


2. *And* a "We reserve the right to censor anything you post we don't like." clause.

"FanLib encourages and supports active and open publication of fan fiction in a lawful and civil manner. We do not monitor the FanLib Website for inappropriate content or conduct"

(The only "we reserve the right to remove..." they give as part of that applies to outright illegal content).


3. An unwritten consequence of (1) would be: "If it's really good, we'll use it to make money. Thanks suckers." clause.

"You authorize FanLib to make, reproduce, distribute, and display these summaries or descriptions on FanLib.com or through its services but not for any other purpose unrelated to FanLib.com. If you mark any of Your Content private, we will not promote and/or showcase Your Content."



I consider myself about as anti-corporate as they come, but I really can't see the fuss over FanLib's TOS. It pretty much addresses every concern you raised.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[lrucker]

Don't forget the "and if the copyright holders get pissed off, don't look to us for help" clause.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[SkipRosebaugh]

Yeah, that's the face they present to the writers.

Check out the face they present to the publishers: http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/005131.html

Re:They tried to herd cats

[Original Replica]

"I got fucked out of a $100 million box office movie script" isn't bragging rights, it's suicide watch.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[jamar0303]

Would they have considered it at all without Yahoo's clout behind it?

Re:They tried to herd cats

[cathector]

but if you follow the link above leads us to a link to this page,
which contains this text:

"If you're looking for the FanLib brochure, it has been removed.
Published in 2004, the brochure contained outdated information for special collaborative events."

so saying that this is the face they present to publishers may not be w/o controversy.

Re:They tried to herd cats

[Rei]

"You authorize FanLib to make, reproduce, distribute, and display these summaries or descriptions on FanLib.com or through its services but not for any other purpose unrelated to FanLib.com. If you mark any of Your Content private, we will not promote and/or showcase Your Content."

They're not planning to put you on TV or in print. They want to use you to market FanLib.

There's only several thousand times too many people already submitting novels in comparison to how many get published. You think they want more garbage? Even worse, derivative garbage?

Re:They tried to herd cats

[rayma]

We do not monitor the FanLib Website for inappropriate content or conduct is not true. Every story posted is checked by moderators. If they do not like the story for whatever reason, they change the rating to Adult, which hides it from web site visitors [unless they change their viewing preferences]. According to the moderators, they will mark fiction as Adult if it has what they call "contemporary themes." Doesn't matter if the story contains no sex or violence. But I'm not bitter...

Re:They tried to herd cats

[pla]

Check out the face they present to the publishers

I agree, that sounds totally different than what they say in their TOS - But I mean totally different. Like it doesn't even seem to apply to the same site.

It sounds more like they intended the site as some sort of massively collaborative text-based "game", with the game flow controlled by people falling somewhere between "moderator" and "dungeon master" in their role.

As for what they hoped to actually sell with that brochure, and to whom, ya got me there.

Perhaps that brochure came from an earlier incarnation of the site (which would explain its vanishing from anywhere but the Google cache)?

Re:They tried to herd cats

[Pollardito]

"I got fucked out of a $100 million box office movie script" isn't bragging rights, it's suicide watch. i'm curious how much the people that actually write scripts for a living earn for writing a "$100 million box office movie script"

I Don't Doubt the Story...

[Pantero Blanco]

...but the author of the article seems to be writing for an unrelated reason, and pulling some of her info out of thin air.

Fanfiction dates back to Star Trek: The Original Series (ST-TOS) when fans published their own "fanzines" - anthologies of stories, complete with artwork.Written almost exclusively by women, fanfic is the fore-mother of user-generated content.

They distributed ads with adolescent boy appeal that the women hated.

The second quote links to someone's LiveJournal, and it's not the only one. This seems like a Cyber Sister storm to me.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[drinkypoo]

The second quote links to someone's LiveJournal, and it's not the only one. This seems like a Cyber Sister storm to me.

Yes, that is quite a problem with bloggers in general. Most of them are stupid enough to think that you will give one tenth of one shit about a link to a blog that no one outside of their social circle cares about.

If I'm providing a link about tech, I don't send people to a fucking slashdot comment - unless it's full of good links.

Linking to some fanfic author's blog is roughly the precise antithesis of reputability. And I don't want to unduly hurt anyone's feelings here, but I have two major problems with fanfic in general. The first one is that most of it is shit. Most of the people writing that stuff clearly weren't paying attention in their English classes in grammar school. The second one is that these people should grow a fucking imagination. It's pathetic enough when you have a show that is so endlessly officially rehashed. Fanfic is way beyond the pale there. The primary example is Star Trek - that show ran out of ideas before the first series was even over, and you could detect ToS stories recycled in ToS!

But what the hell, I don't have a problem with the stuff existing - only with its self-importance. It's not important to anyone outside that particular social scene, except for various studios wishing they could leave a smoking hole in the ground where authors of slash fanfic once stood.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[eclectro]

My brain hit a speedbump when I saw that quote. Women writing Star Trek fanfic?? I never met any at the Star Trek cons back in the seventies. In fact, I never saw any women at the conventions.

Come to think about it, I never saw them camping out for the Star Wars movies either. Where are they?? A million nerds want to know.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[dctoastman]

You are so wrong.

All of fanfic is shit. Not most. Other than that, I agree whole-heartedly.

Consider this, none of those authors are now or will ever be published by a reputable publishing house (note, I say reputable, vanity presses will press any piece of shit).

Fan fiction is the realm of the third or fourth rate writer. They are neither well-versed in their native language to make it interesting nor imaginative enough to create original stories. That is why most fan fiction descends into softcore pornography, over the top violence, and self-insertion. Fan fiction is an obsessive stalker's letter to something that has no physical manifestation. Each story a shrine to their mindless devotion to the topic.
This is why it fails. Fan fiction isn't about the story, character development, or any sort of philosophy. Fan fiction is about how one person views a franchise. A projection of ego onto the objects of their desire.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[AJWM]

Where are they??

Hiding, because...

A million nerds want to know.

Seriously, I remember my high school GF and some of her friends wrote fanfic, very early 70s. I don't recall much Trek, there was also "Department S", "The Champions", and some other Brit shows that hit Canadian TV around then.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can be honest with us. Fan-fiction stole your girlfriend and ran over your dog, didn't it?

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[Rei]

It's not limited to fanfic. Too many wannabe writers are seemingly incapable of having originality. Right now, agents who take fantasy authors are getting flooded with stories about dragons and dragon riders because of Eragon. After The DaVinci Code came out, DaVinci/church conspiracy stories were all the rage in the slush pile. And so on. Some people seem incapable of avoiding following trends.

Yes, spinoffs of trends do happen. They're often done on contract by established authors with a rushed timeline, and sometimes even republishings of older, more obscure books.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[aukestrel]

I'm actually familiar with several fanfic writers who have made the leap to commercial publishing. One of them with a recent publication is Maria Lima ("Matters of the Blood").

The reason a lot of people read fanfic is because it tends to be better written and, often, more interesting, than the crap that passes for "professional fiction" nowadays. In case you've somehow missed it, I'd point you to the craptastic yet (somehow) critically acclaimed "Voyage of the Narwhal" by Andrea Barrett. From a purely technical standpoint, for example, in one chapter she spends 3 paragraphs in the cook's point of view in order to tell (not show) the reader what the captain is feeling. This is not only bad writing, it's lazy. My 12 year old could write three paragraphs from the captain's point of view and "show" me what he's feeling without having to resort to a singular, unnecessary, and rambunctious point-of-view shift.

Re:I Don't Doubt the Story...

[dctoastman]

It's not amateur writers in general. It's fanfiction specifically.

Don't know about quality

[Shadow Wrought]

But these are the numbers off the front page for quantity:

1. Harry Potter (514)
2. Stargate: SG-1 (159)
3. CSI (153)
4. Supernatural (153)
5. Stargate: Atlantis (140)
6. Star Wars (136)
7. Buffy: The Vampire Slayer (135)
8. Battlestar Galactica: 2003 (115)
9. X-Men: The Movie (107)
10. Original Fandom (103)
11. Thunderbirds (94)
12. West Wing (92)
13. Lord of the Rings (86)
14. Gilmore Girls (85)
15. Star Trek: Enterprise (84)
16. Pirates of the Caribbean (76)
17. X-Men: Evolution (62)
18. Sailor Moon (61)
19. Friends (60)
20. Naruto (53)

2500+ odd stories in 2 weeks certainly makes one wonder if some of the fanfictioners didn't get the memo that they were supposed to be ticked.

Re:Don't know about quality

[Reality Master 101]

2500+ odd stories in 2 weeks certainly makes one wonder if some of the fanfictioners didn't get the memo that they were supposed to be ticked.

That doesn't totally suck, I guess, but it's worth nothing that fanfiction.net has almost 300,000 stories -- in the Harry Potter category alone (granted, that's over many years).

I wonder how much advertising money they spent for that 2,500.

Re:Don't know about quality

[coffeechica]

Those aren't new stories, though. It's just what the writers already had when they signed up. And apparently the total number of stories is going down by now.

Re:Don't know about quality

[Opportunist]

Probably enough that they could've hired professional writers to write every single one of those stories.

Re:Don't know about quality

[The Dark]

That doesn't totally suck, I guess, but it's worth nothing that fanfiction.net has almost 300,000 stories -- in the Harry Potter category alone (granted, that's over many years).

I think you meant "worth noting", but sometimes a typo does lead to the inner truth.

Re:Don't know about quality

[Phanatic1a]

Looking at that list, I can't figure out how these execs are thinking they're going to be able to dodge copyright issues. I mean, YouTube has it tough enough, with the RIAA sending takedown notices for short clips that simply include copyright music playing in the background, but each and every one of those stories is a derivative work of a well-known existing and maintained copyright.

NB: I'm not saying fanfic is all a copyright violation. There's plenty of well-known fanfic about characters whose copyright has long since lapsed, or those for whom copyright never existed in the first place. Hell, real respected authors like Tim Powers and Guy Gavriel Kay make a living writing what is essentially historical fanfic. But if you have a site with 2500 stories on it, and those 2500 stories are all fanfic involving Harry Potter, the X-Men, and Friends, you are going to get hammered by the rightsholders.

Re:Don't know about quality

[Jarik_Tentsu]

2500+ odd stories in 2 weeks certainly makes one wonder if some of the fanfictioners didn't get the memo that they were supposed to be ticked. I would guess most of those fics are so far, short, single chapter or one shots where most of them will be abandoned after the first few chapters.

Compare that to Fanfiction.net where just the Harry Potter section there is almost 300,000 fics. Out of these fics, most of them will be
Though quantity means nothing in terms of quality. As anyone who regularly reads FF.net will have noticed the general degradation of quality as FF.net has assumed huge amounts of popularity with obviously, bad writers...and more and more authors are leaving to go on smaller fanfiction sites as their fanfics get lost in pages and pages worth of ridiculously repetitive, badly written and slash fics (not that I have anything against slash/yaoi fics...but the sheer amount of slash/yaoi fics out there is ridiculous. Especially since they're all, like, exactly the same. >_>)

~Jarik

Re:Don't know about quality

[hson]

Quality? Fanfiction is more or less like any other fiction, 90 percent crap. But there there are good fics out there.

The best one I've ever read is Lilac City, by nwhepcat http://www.echonyc.com/~stax/Buffy/nwhepcat/lilac1 .html. It's a Xander-centric BtVS story (spoilers of all seasons of both BtVS and AtS). Read it!

It was a dark and stormy afternoon

[Anonymous Coward]

ScuttleMonkey was manning the Slashdot queue. "Fan Fiction Writers Balk at FanLib.com" suddenly appeared amid a sea of more interesting stories, but ScuttleMonkey knew this was his next frontpager. He always knew, even before he was an editor. Minutes before the story was set to go live, CmdrTaco saw it and ran, if you can call it that, down the hallway. "STOP!" he screamed. "This is a terrible story! You must remove it." ScuttleMonkey pulled out a knife, stabbing Taco in the heart before he had a chance to react. "Remove that, Taco!" cried ScuttleMonkey as he watched the story go live.

How is this "exploiting" exactly?

[antifoidulus]

They created a service that if people use would make them a profit, and if people don't, then oh well. The only real beef in the article seems to be about some overzealous advertising, which can be annoying but hardly exploitative. It's not like they are chaining fanfiction writers to their desks, forcing them to churn out 20 Harry Potter fanfics a day or else they will be deported.....Can we please lay off the overly emotional language?

Re:How is this "exploiting" exactly?

[slapout]

Yeah, it wouldn't really be a MySpace clone if it didn't have a lot of overzealous advertising.

Re:How is this "exploiting" exactly?

[MightyMartian]

By its very nature, fan fiction is exploitative. I'm not sure why anyone would feel they had a legitimate reason to bitch.

Re:How is this "exploiting" exactly?

[WillAffleckUW]

By its very nature, fan fiction is exploitative. I'm not sure why anyone would feel they had a legitimate reason to bitch.

I think you've confused fan fiction with K/S fan fiction.

Although I do hear a lot of Naruto fan fiction is ... well ... a bit too explicit ...

Re:How is this "exploiting" exactly?

[Scutter]

You apparently missed the part of the brochure they sent as marketing. The part that says "Managed and Moderated to the Max" or the part that says "Full monitoring and management of submissions" or perhaps even that part that says "Completed work is just 1st draft to be polished by the pros".

In other words, fans take something they love, write extensions to it for their own not-for-profit amusement, hand it to FanLib, and proceed to get completely exploited. Oh, but in return they'll maybe get a free t-shirt or something. No thanks. Clearly, they have no concept of what fanfic is and are completely out of touch with writers in general.

Re:How is this "exploiting" exactly?

[GamblerZG]

The part that says "Managed and Moderated to the Max" or the part that says "Full monitoring and management of submissions" or perhaps even that part that says "Completed work is just 1st draft to be polished by the pros".

That's called editing.

In other words, fans take something they love, write extensions to it for their own not-for-profit amusement, hand it to FanLib, and proceed to get completely exploited.

Okay, let me get this straight. Fans hand their texts to FanLib. FanLib selects and edits those text. So because someone spends time to read the materials and work with them, rather then just dumping everything on the website and relying on some cheap voting script to sort stuff out, you accuse the site of exploitation of users? Give me a break.

Where's that troll when you need it?

[ettlz]

You used to get bizarre trolls around here that took our learned editor-folk and made them characters in short, absurdly pornographic fictitious literary scenes.

Guess that too counts as fan-fiction, right?

Re:Where's that troll when you need it?

[Lehk228]

touchedmyjunk.com is down, that's what happened

Re:Where's that troll when you need it?

[Eli Gottlieb]

TROOOOLLLL! Trooooollll in the dungeons!!!!!!!!!

And I revoke the geek license of anyone who doesn't get that joke.

fanfic txt kiddies?

[Evil Poot Cat]

Hm...At first, this would seem like a victory for literacy and the market. I mean, the notion that the fanfic community would at least pause to discuss amongst themselves before jumping in, indicates a higher level of capability than the average "social networking" site member. So yes, "Fanfic writers > txt kiddies" would be an accurate statement.

But...I doubt this site will go away anytime soon. I'd actually be more concerned with the scenario of publishers/content providers declaring this aggregator (or similar ilk) to be the "official" home of their fanfic, and use that position to launch IP-based attacks on non-moderated (read: unapproved) content. That's really what this position smells like: carrot before stick.

Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[WillAffleckUW]

I have Canadian and US filed copyrights for most of my fan fiction, so if they do this, we're looking at long jail terms and big fines.

Caveat emptor.

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[chromatic]

I'm sure the creators of the characters and settings you use in your fanfic have their own copyrights and possibly trademarks too. They probably also filed before you did.

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[WillAffleckUW]

Nah, parody is always acceptable.

Fair use, man ...

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[chromatic]

I've read fanfic. Accidental parody isn't much of a defense.

(I know, I know... I haven't read yours.)

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[dctoastman]

You can't have copyright on a derivative work. Technically, the copyright belongs to the original creators of the universe/characters/planets/etc.

Not to mention most of the bigger icons are usually trademarked. (i.e. Spider-man is a trademark of Marvel)

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[WillAffleckUW]

You are confusing copyright with trademarks.

Please go and study a bit before posting.

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[dctoastman]

No I'm not.

Owning copyright on Mickey Mouse gives me copyright on all derivatives of Mickey Mouse as they are based on my original idea. Actually, I'm the only one who can make derivatives since I own the copyright to the original.
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html

Looks like I'm not the one who needs to study.

I brought up trademarks because they represent a separate threat in addition to copyright violation.
To reiterate my Spider-man example, here is the trademark registration for Spider-man:
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=6 d0u0u.2.14
Now if you use the term Spider-man to reference a comic strip character without getting the thumbs up from Marvel, you are open for trouble of the legal variety.

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[WillAffleckUW]

You would think so, but you would be wrong under Fair Use doctrine.

And, as I stated, I am a dual citizen and was published in Canada and then distibuted worldwide from there, and filed copyrights under both the Canadian and US systems legally.

Nice try.

But, again, maybe you should take a Business Law course or two. I did. In addition to Logic courses, which you also might find useful.

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[dctoastman]

So you are writing parodies?
And are you saying that the U.S. government has gotten its own copyright law wrong?
Wow, I really should read your books.
And what if I said I was a copyright lawyer. Would my appeal to authority trump yours?

Re:Interesting, but Highly Illegal

[WillAffleckUW]

you can say whatever you want, but my version of reality is the correct one.

We haven't heard from everyone...

[Chairboy]

Quite frankly, I won't form an opinion until we've heard an official response from the most influential contingent in fan-fiction:

Furries.

Without their unique insight into subjects like "Kirk romances a full sized Gadget from Chip n' Dale's Rescue Rangers" or "What would happen if the crew of the NX-01 were anthropomorphic animals and there's maybe a crossover with the X-Men why not?", we would have no way of knowing what we did and didn't like about the various trek series, and, by extension, an online repository of stories.

So count me out until the "Commander Troi as a sexy lemur" crowd weighs in, THEN I'll know what to think.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[ettlz]

"What would happen if the crew of the NX-01 were anthropomorphic animals and there's maybe a crossover with the X-Men why not?"

Bloody hell... if you did that, you could get at least ten novels out of Phlox alone.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

This is why you shouldn't publish just any damn thing you write when you're stoned on catnip.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[ettlz]

troi is a counselor, not a commander...please turn in your geek card and head over to the cliche-poll.

Troi attained the rank of Commander. Anyhoo, I'd like... no, I'm just curious to know what a "sexy lemur" is.

You see, I've seen a whole bunch of lemurs.

Mostly in captivity.

Not one of them turned me on.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[DaleGlass]

Without their unique insight into subjects like "Kirk romances a full sized Gadget from Chip n' Dale's Rescue Rangers" or "What would happen if the crew of the NX-01 were anthropomorphic animals and there's maybe a crossover with the X-Men why not?", we would have no way of knowing what we did and didn't like about the various trek series, and, by extension, an online repository of stories.

I've never heard of anything of the sort, but that sounds amusing. Got a link to any of that?

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[A nonymous Coward]

Counselor is a job. Commander is a rank. Anonymous Coward is a loser. Get out of your basement and head on down to the recruiter and go learn of what you attempt to speak about.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[Chmcginn]

Wait... catnip works on people? Why have I been feeding it to the stupid kittidiot all these years?

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[FooAtWFU]

Well, a quick search on Google turned up this page, and I guess she's sort of cute, but, well, hardly supremely compelling or anything like that. Perhaps it's enough to give a vague idea? I found a little more with the other search, but it's really more 'terrible, pathetic art' than 'sexy'.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[The One and Only]

I'm loath to admit it, but...having tried catnip, it doesn't really work on people.

Re:We haven't heard from everyone...

[alexgieg]

"What would happen if the crew of the NX-01 were anthropomorphic animals and there's maybe a crossover with the X-Men why not?"

Well, not furry (except for some of the X-Men, but that's expected); not the NX-01, but the NCC-1701; and not a fanfic, but an official crossover (!); but here you go.

There were two also official kind of sequels with the NCC-1701-D crew.

Correction

[lastchance_000]

I'm sure the lawyers for the actual copyright holders would have something to say about #3.

In the words of Cringely

[Simon Garlick]

"Terry Semel at Yahoo doesn't really understand how to run an Internet business"

Re:LinuxJournal?

[Migraineman]

Man, I gotta cut down on the caffeine and get more sleep. I was really confused about why the fanfic folks were having their LinuxJournal forum accounts terminated.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic... (meaning)

[WillAffleckUW]

If the Internet doesn't exist to host Harry Potter slash fanfic, then what the hell is it for?

Why, Furries, of course. That plus Naruto.

I don't know what they're worried about...

[writermike]

This marks the first legitimate shot for a Kirk/Spock TV pilot.

Star Trek
The Search for Spock's Nipple

Re:I don't know what they're worried about...

[PhxBlue]

I'm sending you the bill for the three gallons of brain detergent it will take to get that image out of my head.

MySpace?

[solevita]

The summary mentions it alot, which makes me wonder, how much does Bill Jackson actually know about the kids? Who wants to create the next MySpace? Not me. Who wants to read about some guy creating the next MySpace? Not me.

Sorry, correction not possible

[A nonymous Coward]

You already had your last chance when you first clicked Submit. No second chances for you.

Getting One's Dose of Internet Fiction

[Nom du Keyboard]

When I want my dose of Internet fiction, the stuff that's fun to read yet what publishers won't touch, I go to the following:

Stories OnLine
The Pendorwright Projects
usenet:assm

And none of this is lining any corporation's pockets off the sweat of the authors.

Jaw droppingly bad marketing

[rinkjustice]

FanLib looks like it's only purpose is to exploit, control and profit from the writings of fanfiction writers, people who only want a forum to show their work and express their enthusiasm. The marketing strategy pdf proclaims it will be "turnkey entertainment marketing service" where converted works will become "fanisodes". That's right, "turnkey".

Other choice lines include:

• a mass audience collaborate democratically in a fun online game that you control
• Massive Viral Marketing
• As with a coloring book, players must "stay within the lines"
• Restrictive player's terms-of-service protects your rights and property

I'm currently majoring in business marketing , and I can't believe the misanthropical tone and language of their marketing plan. It's as cynical and exploitive as I've ever read.

Fanfiction.net?

[Shinra]

I've occasionally posted stuff @ fanfiction.net, what makes this
new website significantly different?

Re:Fanfiction.net?

[Aereus]

You get the chance to be exploited by a faceless corporate entity, duh!

Re:Fanfiction.net?

[Shinra]

Well damm, of course! Sign me up!

Re:Fanfiction.net?

[PhxBlue]

A deliciously ironic response, given the GP's username is Shinra.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic... (meaning)

[poopdeville]

I Rasengan your contempt for Naruto.

Re:I hope they write their fanfic... (meaning)

[WillAffleckUW]

Contempt? Heck, my son writes fanfic for Naruto (and has tens of thousands of rankings for his writing).

I even watch it sometimes.

Hobson's Choice

[BillGatesLoveChild]

Between Yahoo Executives http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/11 0443243/article.pl and lawyers, darn it, I'm on the side of the lawyers. Tear them a new one, my well-healed Mercedes-driving friends. Class Action. You know the drill. Do it for the Gipper, and Wang Xiaoning http://www.hrichina.org/public/contents/press?revi sion_id=27803&item_id=27801

I hope this works.

[glwtta]

Because frankly, slashdot has been very disappointing in this regard.

Ironic...

[nick_davison]

So, let me get this straight...

They're upset that someone else is using their IP, [generally] ignoring copyrights and trademarks of the work they created by using someone else's IP, [generally] ignoring copyrights and trademarks?

How utterly unprecedented!

Good luck with advertisers

[dircha]

Somehow I don't think General Electric and Proctor and Gamble want to be known as supporters of fantasy depictions of gay mind control sex between tom cruise and has anthropomorhic clone.

yiff!

Re:Good luck with advertisers

[Jesus_666]

Dear Mr. Dircha,

you're right. We didn't consider that and will immediately pull out of that website, as we do not want our name associated with Tom Cruise. Future ad partnerships will be with more wholesome sites like Yiffnet, Anthro Incest Paradise and goatse.cx.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Sincerely,
Proctor McGambleson,
VP of Marketing, Proctor and Gamble

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

This is why I don't have a journal...

[Ayanami Rei]

...on a website I don't control.

Invariably, when a site gets popular, it attracts the attention of people who would like to ruin your shit. Things like this happen.

Don't rely on third parties if you have speech you want to protect.

Re:This is why I don't have a journal...

[mdwh2]

Sure - but you still come to Slashdot don't you, even though a 3rd party might ruin it?

See my post here - you're right that it's a problem relying on a 3rd party, but the problem isn't easy to solve simply by having a standalone blog.

And sure, if I knew I was going to write something of a highly-controversial-or-illegal nature I might start off with a standalone blog despite the limitations. But in this case, people are being banned without warning based on a keyword in their profile.

Oh come now. It's not that bad. Though...

[Ayanami Rei]

...it seems the only good fanfics are the ones that center around stories and characters that had poor writing behind them anyway. Basically it functions as a bridge to the audience; you go in already knowing something about the background and the characters, and presumably the author has a new angle or bone to pick and would like to "sell you" that.
Writers scratching an itch.

And if the fics are good, then the authors are already writers of original work that is popular on their own merits. This is just a way for them to "fix" what is broken about some popular media they enjoyed. Or they may find it as a challenge (you can argue that it's easy or more difficult to write a successful fanfic -- subject to the rabid whims of the fandom -- then it is to write about characters and situations entirely under your control).

But the rest of it is crap. To filter: ignore any stories based on popular, long-running, or throughly-imagined franchises.

Hate to break it to you...

[Ayanami Rei]

but I could film an episode of (insert the name of a show corresponding to your fan fiction) based on a script "adapted" from your material by a screenwriter, and not have to pay you a red cent.
Copyright only extends to cover the material in question, not the underlying ideas nor scenarios. And I'll change some things superficially, rewrite the dialog to better fit my cast, and so forth.

Gathering it in one place doesn't change what I could do with the material. That hasn't changed.

Anyway, I'm sure your fanfiction is utter crap, so it's not like it'd get passed around the office. Writers and producers will scan through the fandom, look for popular ideas and themes that resonate with the fanbase, and then make new material that caters to that.

Re:Hate to break it to you...

[WillAffleckUW]

amusing, but I used to make money as a writer, and appear on panels at WorldCon, OryCon, VCon, Norwescon, and various other places. Not to mention touring New Zealand and Australia.

Perhaps you should consider amending your opinion.

something close

[rayma]

I offer you pr0n based on the FanLib ads. Pink dude/Blue guy 4EVA! http://lizbee.livejournal.com/640762.html?format=l ight The Yahoo execs are not attractive enough to write porn about. Let me know when the FanLib saga is turned into a made-for-tv flick starring Wentworth Miller and that one guy in that movie.

Re:fanfic txt kiddies?

[rayma]

Yes. I believe the goal is to get rid of free fanfic and replace it with corporate approved fanfic that earns the IPs money.

A: Because it breaks the flow of a message

[DNS-and-BIND]

Q: Why is starting a comment in the Subject: line annoying?

where, oh where?

[azenpunk]

where will i find gilmour girls fanfic porn now?

Re:Oh fuck? Oh really...

[Rei]

You'd be surprised. ;)

Really, though, most people never move beyond "novice".

Dammit

[Grashnak]

Now I'm not sure where to post my latest "Wesley Crusher Plays Doctor with his Mom" story!

Re:I had no idea that most of that stuff was by wo

[olman]

That's interesting blurb. Did someone print that story?

Re:LinuxJournal?

[Dogtanian]

Man, I gotta cut down on the caffeine and get more sleep. I was really confused about why the fanfic folks were having their LinuxJournal forum accounts terminated. It was all the Linus Torvalds/Steve Ballmer slash fiction that caused it.

"Should Star Trek be more about Ghosts?"

[Dogtanian]

The whole notion that publishers want a bunch of garbage written by amateurs -- even worse, by a bunch of amateurs working together -- when the market is already flooded, and there are plenty of writers who would gladly sell out for extra cash... it's just silly. Yeah, that's what they want you to believe. Just because they wouldn't be smart enough by themselves to come up with ideas like "Should Star Trek be more about Ghosts?"

In a million years, they'd never come up with ideas like this for the franchise (source here and here):

Starfleet Command is haunted by the wraith of a ship designer who is about to die but has projected his soul into the ship to make starships alive - Starfleet loves the new ships and the designer has to kill murderers and psycopaths to put their souls into battleships so he goes around murdering new people. Brilliant!

Re:"Should Star Trek be more about Ghosts?"

[Rei]

Starfleet Command is haunted by the wraith of a ship designer who is about to die but has projected his soul into the ship to make starships alive - Starfleet loves the new ships and the designer has to kill murderers and psycopaths to put their souls into battleships so he goes around murdering new people.

And if they write with grammar like that, they'll never make it past the query stage ;)

There are many things that can get you culled. Having an unoriginal plot is but one. Poor dialogue, poor description/worldbuilding, poor "technicals" (grammar, formatting, overuse of dialogue tags, etc), being a nitwit or egotist in the query process, using topics that people don't want to touch with a ten foot pole, and even things like timing** can relegate you to the slush pile.

** -- For example, if you spent early 2001 writing a story about a plane crashing into a building and started trying to query it in the fall, or if you wrote a story about a dragon and tried to sell it during the Eragon craze (i.e., at a time when everybody and their dog was writing dragon novels) -- these would be examples of bad timing ruining your chances.

Re:"Should Star Trek be more about Ghosts?"

[Dogtanian]

My mistake; the first link should be to here.

Re:Wow, are you fucking retarded?

[drinkypoo]

Boys can't write for shit unless they're English majors or gay.

That's why I thought it was written by males. It turns out people who write fanfic can't write for shit, either.

Re:I had no idea that most of that stuff was by wo

[AdamThor]

Is this true? I'm a dude and I neither write nor read fanfic, so I guess it's possible. Given that there are a fair number of males writing original fiction I would sorta expect there to be a population of male fanfic amateurs. The Phantom Edit (the closest thing to fanfic present in my version of the popular consciousness) was done by a dude, right? That's basically a version of fanfic, isn't it?

The tone of the article seems to be 'by-women-for-women'. I'm not saying that fanfic isn't female dominated, but is there some actual source for this apart from Mary McNamera's assertion?

Just a staggeringly BAD idea...

[Garwulf]

Boy...this is just, um...

I'm a pro writer, and it's not often that I'm short on words, but this is just a staggeringly bad idea.

Fan fiction is in the shadows for a reason - strictly speaking, it's illegal. It's pretty harmless, when it's all said and done, and some groups, such as the BBC when it comes to Doctor Who (where I got my start during my amateur writing years), support it so long as it doesn't go commercial. But, illegal and harmless means that it is sometimes tolerated - but this doesn't make it legal.

And this site wants to bring this material out into the open...and use it for financial gain...

Now, Showtime and a couple of the affiliates who are supporting it may not have a problem here, but a whole lot of other content owners will. I think the term "lawsuit magnet" may be a good one on this idea.