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Which ISPs Are Spying On You?

Posted by kdawson on from the what-do-they-keep-and-how-long-do-they-keep-it dept.

firesquirt sends us an article from Wired about a survey they conducted to determine major ISPs' data retention and other privacy practices. Over a period of two months, four national ISPs would not give Wired the time of day; and another four answered some of their questions in a fashion not altogether reassuring.

160 comments

  1. All of them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    All of them (in the US) are spying on you, thanks to government data-retention requirements. Y'know, in case a turrist or pedophile happens to use the intarwebs.

    1. Re:All of them by froggero1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      All of them (in the world) have the potential to spy on you. But in the US, thanks to government privacy lobbyists, we get the privilidge of full disclosure and an open forum to debate what privacy we'd like to see from a government.

      --
      ~/.sig: No such file or directory
    2. Re:All of them by crazy+al's · · Score: 5, Informative

      All of the United States' ISPs are MANDATED to have the ability to spy on you, at a moment's notice, and send the full stream they request off to FBI or whoever's data warehouse. and they (the ISP) must comply and must not tell you if they are doing so, courtesy of CALEA. Penalties start at $10,000 per day. Obligatory bow of the head: I, for one, welcome our new overlords.

      --
      Crazy Al's House of Intertubes - where we make up in volume what we lose per bit...
    3. Re:All of them by logiclust · · Score: 2, Informative

      HA

      that was funny.

    4. Re:All of them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How peachy for you.

      In my country, thanks to less corruption and more transparency in government, we get the right to full disclosure and an open forum to debate what privacy we'd like to see.

      But then, no government can possibly be better than the US government, right? Because you're the bestestest in the world at everything.

    5. Re:All of them by GapingHeadwound · · Score: 1

      The CALEA mandate is yet another in a long list of privacy violations. Francisco Franco would be proud of the US.

      The research shows that if the tapping capability is there, law enforcement will use it. i.e. although mobile/cell phones *can* be tapped, landlines are favoured for tapping by ratio of something greater than 10:1 (I don't remember anything more accurate, but you get the idea).

      While the likelihood of somebody else tapping your Internet traffic may be low, the probability is never nill.

      Now that all compliant ISPs have the taps in place, the number of capable ISP employees that can run a tap has very likely increased while the effort in making a tap has decreased. So, if you look at a tap-capable ISP employee as a commodity to be bribed, the market just became more accessible through competition. As a consequence it more likely that, say, a group of private investigators, previously unable to afford the resource, now could.

      Of course, if you're not cheating on your wife, you won't have as much to worry about. But suppose you're email address is in the address book of someone who is, rightfully or wrongfully, being investigated for a criminal offence...

      Recap: The more available this resource is for *someone*, the more available it is for *anyone*, and the more it gets used anyway.

      Obligatory bow of the head: I, for one, welcome our new overlords.

      If you don't want to bow your head, it's not obligatory. I often use Relakks, an anonymous IP provider in Sweden. I am not an employee or agent of Relakks (I'm not even a Swede), but I find the service well worth the 5 Euro/month despite the, naturally, slightly slower connection, which is 1) a PPTP VPN tunnel 2) through Sweden.

    6. Re:All of them by morie · · Score: 1

      It mostly depends on how willing they are to hand over information. in the end, they will have to, but they may put up soem resistance.

      I use XS4ALL in the netherlands. They tend to go to court rather than give up user privacy. Only if they lose, they will give it out.

      --
      Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
    7. Re:All of them by abhorsen666 · · Score: 1

      They're not NEW overlords as such, but the methods they use have only really quite recently become public

    8. Re:All of them by mkoko · · Score: 1

      This is why end-to-end encryption is important. The only way you can be positive no one is reading your stuff is to utilize end-to-end encryption. Key management can get tricky when you have more than two people, but there are protocols out there. Hopefully as people see their privacy slip through the cracks they will start using being a little more careful.

    9. Re:All of them by Creepy · · Score: 1

      I don't know how true that is, but it's completely unenforcible.

          Anyone that uses the open part of my wireless freenet is not logged, and even if I did log, I could only keep about 50k of logfiles (the free space available on my router). If my ISP was spying on me, they may get all sorts of stuff coming through my router that is not being downloaded by me, and unless they find it on my machine (which they won't, since it's routed to a separate subnet), there's not much they can do about it. As a matter of fact, even if I turn on logging, it is completely restricted by available memory on the router, which isn't much. I have no control over what people use my network for, nor does any coffee shop owner or airport or anyone else that offers free wireless. I expect mine is mostly used for business, since it happens to be fairly close to a major downtown headed bus-stop (a park-n-ride), but I really don't know.

    10. Re:All of them by walt-sjc · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's great until their seize all your computer equipment because they have logs showing that your IP downloaded child porn. The local DA will make much noise about the bust and your life as you know it is over. It doesn't matter that they won't actually find anything on your systems... It doesn't matter that it wasn't YOU that downloaded child porn. When it comes to child porn, you are guilty in the court of public opinion no matter what the evidence shows.

    11. Re:All of them by Holi · · Score: 1

      I, for one, welcome our new overlords.

      in this case our overlords are hardly new.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    12. Re:All of them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      suppose you're email address

      "your".

  2. That's easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    If you live in a muslim country ... all ISPs. See Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan ...

    1. Re:That's easy by oogoliegoogolie · · Score: 1

      Even easier if you live in the US...it's your own government.

    2. Re:That's easy by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ....the US, Great Britain, Australia, Ireland, etc, etc...

      The net is being reined in by those who don't like it. There's little anyone who cares can do to stop it.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    3. Re:That's easy by SeaFox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even easier if you live in the US...it's your own government.

      Somewhere, there are lobbyists laughing at this comment.
    4. Re:That's easy by Tribbin · · Score: 1

      You have a twisted world perspective anonymous boy.

      --
      If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
    5. Re:That's easy by dave562 · · Score: 1

      You're right, there isn't much that any single person can do to stop it. Change requires groups of like minded individuals working together. Our society here in America is setup to encourage division and numerous sub-cultures that are opposed to each other. Unfortunately the reality of life is that it is always easier to defend an entrenched position than it is to take that position from the defenders. Having said all that, I'd suggest considering Ron Paul as a viable alternative candidate for 2008.

  3. All of them, DUH by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

    NO CARRIER

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    1. Re:All of them, DUH by Reaperducer · · Score: 1

      Over a period of two months, four national ISPs would not give Wired the time of day
      So? BFD. I wouldn't give Wired the time of day, either. Wired had promise in the last century, but is nothing more than a hybrid of Ars Technica and People Magazine.

      In spite of what the people at Wired think of themselves, they're not the New York Times, or any other news organization with a 100+ year track record of journalism (recent gaffes notwithstanding). They're just a garish tech fanboi rag, and not even a good one of those.
      --
      -- I'm old enough to have lived through six different meanings of the word "hacker."
    2. Re:All of them, DUH by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't give Wired the time of day, either. Wired had promise in the last century, but is nothing more than a hybrid of Ars Technica and People Magazine. In spite of what the people at Wired think of themselves, they're not the New York Times [..] They're just a garish tech fanboi rag, and not even a good one of those. Wired is rubbish. I could post why here, but I'd just be repeating myself since I've already done this on more than one occasion.
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  4. in EU this is mandated by the government... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, in the European Union, such spying practices are _mandatory_.

    1. Re:in EU this is mandated by the government... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well - depends where you live! In an independent free country as Finland at least
      my (and basically all) ISPs has put Slash and a big Dot to all 'spying'!
      Additionally they keep on giving our geological position apx 150-200 miles wrong,
      so we ain't get too targeted by 'spying', adult-ads etc malcontent!

      They really do have lots of other things to do - as keeping all up and
      running while developing new technology for the future.

      We all know that Spys, Terrorists, Conspiracies (spell 'the truth' ;)) and
      Fundamentalist Cults exist only in few dictator-driven police-states as in USA.
      R.I.A.A. and all other 'super-materialists' and their .Gov are giving more fines
      to those 'crimes' than f.e. killing a man (one basics of Capitalism) ...

      So, you all should know, where this world's 'elite' is going right now!
      See things and matters globally, then small things like this are much more
      self-clear and easier to understand.

      Coward W. (just lazy in making accounts everywhere)

    2. Re:in EU this is mandated by the government... by Capt+James+McCarthy · · Score: 1

      Call me confused, but I have a question that may or may not have a true answer. When does a 'watch dogging' (the process of ensuring a society's laws are followed) become spying?

      Is the Internet considered private or public? Minus the VPN's or ssh'ing which would be considered private. If it's public then what is the difference between ISP's providing data to whichever agency and your local Park Ranger providing information to the local police about you when you visit a park?

      I'm all for privacy, but I'd think that unless you knowingly encrypt your communications, you're data is up for grabs.

      --
      There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
    3. Re:in EU this is mandated by the government... by Mikkeles · · Score: 1
      'When does a 'watch dogging' (the process of ensuring a society's laws are followed) become spying?'

      When it involves those are are not disobeying laws or is otherwise arbitrary in whom it targets.

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    4. Re:in EU this is mandated by the government... by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

      Blame Blair and Bush. The Neo-cons lobbied strongly for EU data retention even tho the US would never have it:

      http://www.policylaundering.org/issues/comm/

      In Britain, your ISP could be forced to have mass surveillance equipment fitted that sends any and all data to the Govt. Your ISP would be prosecuted for telling anyone.
      They can also jail you for not telling them your encryption passphrases (or if you can't remember them).

      http://www.magnacartaplus.org/bills/rip/index.htm

      Just one of the many terrifying laws NuLabour have passed:

      http://www.waronfreedom.net/

  5. Noisy clickstream by mstrcat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's an idea: Develop a web browser extention that does a random web crawl. I don't mind letting my ISP sell marketeers, give to the government, keep on file, ect a clickstream that is 99% chaff and 1% my actuall surfing. Yes, I realize that if someone puts in enough effort and analysis, they could probably sift out the false signal, but it's that very effort that makes it cost prohibitive to do it across a broad scale. And of course there is always the defense: I didn't visit that web site, my computer constantly does a random walk of the internet. And to help keep the ISPs in line, it ups the volume of records they have to keep by 500 fold.
            As for the other things such as IM's, emails, torrents, ect I can encrypt those should I feel the need. Yes, I could start using TOR, but it's slow and watching a web crawler do a random walk can be entertainment all by itself.

    1. Re:Noisy clickstream by mh1997 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Here's an idea: Develop a web browser extention that does a random web crawl
      It would be my luck that my browser would hit every child porn site on the web.
    2. Re:Noisy clickstream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Already done (see here)

      Also see Bruce Schneier's opinion on the matter.

      In short, it isn't a good idea.

    3. Re:Noisy clickstream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be my luck that my browser would hit every child porn site on the web.

      You mean all 3 or 4 that the FBI hosts?

    4. Re:Noisy clickstream by westlake · · Score: 0, Redundant
      Here's an idea: Develop a web browser extention that does a random web crawl...

      The random noise generated by the geek with the Big Idea is not going to change anything. Except that he just might see his shared connection to the net throttled down to the speed of a 300 baud modem.

    5. Re:Noisy clickstream by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Yes, I realize that if someone puts in enough effort and analysis, they could probably sift out the false signal, but it's that very effort that makes it cost prohibitive to do it across a broad scale.

      Except that you only have to do it once, since the same algorithm would be used on each person's web browser.

      And of course there is always the defense: I didn't visit that web site, my computer constantly does a random walk of the internet.

      I thought the point was to keep them from casually snooping on your legal activities, not to hide illegal activities. Kind of like the people still complaining about Apple for removing DRM but still putting your name into the file in case you try to infringe on the copyright.

      And to help keep the ISPs in line, it ups the volume of records they have to keep by 500 fold.

      Install filter before logs are made. Problem solved.

    6. Re:Noisy clickstream by chrono13 · · Score: 2, Informative

      TrackMeNot isn't designed to hide your searches from your ISP. It is designed to muddy the profiling Yahoo, MSN and Google are performing. Recent versions of it seem to perform that job fantastically and address most of Bruce's concerns (word list, timing, etc). So while it would hinder, to a degree, it is the fact that it really does not erase or otherwise really hide my legitimate searches from my ISP or work proxy, that I do not use it. But most of Bruce's concerns are no longer valid.

      --
      You have been eaten by a Hurd of GNU.
    7. Re:Noisy clickstream by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      And to help keep the ISPs in line, it ups the volume of records they have to keep by 500 fold.
      Install filter before logs are made. Problem solved.

      Filtering a log pretty much makes it useless as evidence. Though the Feds can just disappear you regardless of legal procedure these days.

    8. Re:Noisy clickstream by Lehk228 · · Score: 5, Funny

      then don't have the bot start from your bookmarks folder.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    9. Re:Noisy clickstream by Ken_g6 · · Score: 1

      Actually, there are several available programs to do this kind of search. Here's a list. Ignore the first three that do performance statistics; there are better ones below them.

      If you want a single specific, easy-to-use app, I'd suggest DepSpid. (I haven't used it specifically, but all projects on the BOINC platform are very similar.)

      --
      (T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
    10. Re:Noisy clickstream by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      While I agree that using such a dictionary as TrackMeNot uses is dumb, if you rather used the leaked AOL searches instead, it would be much more efficient. Well, I still think the whole thing is pointless and tinfol-hat-esque anyways.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    11. Re:Noisy clickstream by SilentOneNCW · · Score: 1

      OWNED!!

      --
      games journalism blog
    12. Re:Noisy clickstream by br0d · · Score: 1

      Brilliant! My own personal trojan aggregator! It'll be XSS mania! Seriously, maybe if this included a tightly managed and trusted whitelist. Otherwise, I'd never go near a browsing bot. My browsing is so chaotic anyway, I'd hate to be the miner trying to market at me.

  6. ISP's fearful of RIAA/MPAA? by planckscale · · Score: 4, Insightful
    So ultimately the ISP's are afraid they'll be fined or shut down due to the negligence of the users and/or refusing to submit evidence? I just don't understand how a user's nefarious actions could be blamed on the ISP...

    I would think all they need to do is show they warned their users they are 1. being watched 2. downloading illegal data. Actually providing the authorities with a history of the data is not their job and should only be the acquired by the authorities with their own equipment and only under a court order.

    At the least the ISP's should give their users the ability to opt-out of their "data retention" programs.

    --
    Namaste
  7. Rogers Slogan is "Don't be not evil." by CheeseburgerBrown · · Score: 3, Informative

    My Canadian ISP, Rogers, is not on the list but if I were to hazard a guess I'd reckon they'd sell my tracks six ways from Sunday as soon as sneeze.

    These are, after all, the goons who think just about any kind of encrypted traffic coming out of your box is a terrorist threat to the movie industry -- even if it's just a VPN connection.

    Does anyone know what Rogers retention policies actually are?

    --
    These stories are free but worth money.
    1. Re:Rogers Slogan is "Don't be not evil." by froggero1 · · Score: 1

      "Rogers does not use or disclose personal information for purposes other than those for which it was collected, except with the consent of the individual or as required by law. Rogers retains personal information only as long as necessary for the fulfillment of those purposes."

      http://www.shoprogers.com/privacy1.asp

      --
      ~/.sig: No such file or directory
    2. Re:Rogers Slogan is "Don't be not evil." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      In other words, they'll shop you, and you'll be truly rogered.

    3. Re:Rogers Slogan is "Don't be not evil." by Frostalicious · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, both Rogers and Shaw were refusing to turn over account information to the CRIAA. Has this changed?

    4. Re:Rogers Slogan is "Don't be not evil." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I have a coworker who used to work for Shaw. He tells me that they log every single connection made to/from their customers, including at least source/destination IP and the amount of data transferred. He says they don't log the data itself. He says they have a huge SAN, and migrate to optical media for off-site storage with Iron Mountain. Supposedly they keep 7 years of records. I'm curious what they'd say if asked about this, he's a new guy and may be BSing.

    5. Re:Rogers Slogan is "Don't be not evil." by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, both Rogers and Shaw were refusing to turn over account information to the CRIAA. Has this changed? IANAL, but there is a Canadian law in effect that causes liability if they disclose information to third parties - especially on a large scale. I'm not sure if the law has any teeth, but private individuals can use it as leverage against large companies.

      There's already enough trouble with frivilous lawsuits (e.g. Warning: do not place ladder on frozen cow patties). Violating an actual law will be worse against companies, since they will need to win on a technicality (which won't always work.)
  8. Re:ISP's fearful of RIAA/MPAA? by feedmetrolls · · Score: 0

    So much for saying "In Soviet Russia, ISP watches you"

    --
    You are reading a sig. Cancel or allow?
  9. Sure... We spy..... by bagboy · · Score: 3, Funny

    because as a Sr. Network Eng for an ISP with thousands of users I have oh so much time to devote to tracking down every website you visit. Please, even if packet sniffing and tcpdumps are used, most ISPs can't afford manpower for intensive tracking... Maybe the big ones, but medium to small...

  10. Time to encrypt by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Its time to encrypt EVERYTHING. ( at least until the government bans it )

    Sure they know where you went, but not what you viewed or 'said' while there.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Time to encrypt by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It would certainly help if many websites (including Slashdot) didn't refuse logins or postings from users running Tor.

    2. Re:Time to encrypt by Ken_g6 · · Score: 1

      I don't know; hypothetically ... if I was running Tor ... and if I did happen to send out my login information ... I wouldn't want the site to confirm that it was me who posted it. Although I would want to be able to post as an Anonymous Coward.

      --
      (T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
    3. Re:Time to encrypt by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      And, non-hypothetically, I've tried both and neither works to post to Slashdot while using Tor. Not logging in, and not Anonymous Coward.

  11. The survey should have included... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What info do advertising and spyware companies get from their adverts on websites and pass on to the authorities, record companies etc.,
    Yes we all know that you can block adverts/spyware delete cookies etc., but how many users block 100%

    1. Re:The survey should have included... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's easy to bypass all the ads/spyware if you primarily use lynx and have a ~/.lynx_cookies.sav file for the few sites you actually want cookies for.
      (btw I trully enjoy lynx and can't stand all the ads and page load times in graphical browsers)

  12. Am I missing the point? by Novotny · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If by spying, you mean conducting your communications via the interweb and invariably having copies of said communications either in deliberately or not deliberatley maintained logs... Its a bit like asking someone to tell your mate down the street 'it rains on Tuesdays' and then complaining when the intermediate seems to know your secret weather-forceasting tip.

  13. Re:fi8st p0st? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YUO FA1L TEH INTERNEZT

  14. That's true... by Atario · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As far as you know.

    --
    "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    1. Re:That's true... by turnip+torrent · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Should we be more worried of ISPs spying on what we do... Or should the ISPs be worried about us spying on what they do?

    2. Re:That's true... by OriginalArlen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      None of the ISPs (or NSPs) are spying on you; they merely provide the lawful intercept functionality are required by CALEA, PATRIOT, and other legislation. It's the CIA/ TIA / NSA that do the actual spying.

      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    3. Re:That's true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I admin a medium sized independent ISP with about 14,000 subscribers. Not small, but not Verizon. I've worked for larger ISP's the Mid-Atlantic coast also, but this job is much nicer.

      Spying on customers is the last thing I've ever worried about. We do the bare minimum to be compliant with CALEA and the rest.
      I consider investing in trusted third parties, taps, new switches, etc.. a pain in the ass and I don't have time to read your e-mail, either. I know it's cool to dis your ISP, but most of the ones with the knowledge and the means to actually be able to spy on you all, are the kinds of people that frequent slashdot, programmed their VIC-20 and never talked a lot in high-school. In other words, not agent smith, but people, making typical corporate salaries and with reasonable moral values, just like you.

      That is all.

    4. Re:That's true... by Skjellifetti · · Score: 1

      If the ISP is selling your clickstream data to other businesses, then the ISP is spying on you.

      --
      FreeSpeech.org
  15. SHAW.CA does, but @ times with GOOD reason! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shaw.ca does!

    See here about an "article writer" (arstechnica derivative drivel fits the bill far better), Jeremy Reimer:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=199#feedbackAnchor

    Jeremy Reimer was caught:

    1.) Email harassing others

    2.) Impersonating others on his website

    3.) Libelling others numerous times in edited photos and songs ripped off from SouthPark (no originality, the trademark of the arstechnica bunch)

    4.) Then had his website removed from his hosting provider Shaw.ca along with his crony in Jay Little from CrystalTech.com

    5.) They tried to lie about it no less, but the evidence is there posted for anyone to see.

    6.) Then, they got their behinds handed to them on 15 different technical points (and, arstechnica is supposed to have this 'great computer guru user base' on its forums? NOT!) they could not disprove for over 3 years now.

    Shaw.ca did the 'great article writer' Jeremy Reimer (plagiaristic buffoon) right on that one. The fool is still keeping it up no less. He has no respect for law, and not even for making his fellow arstechnica people look like fools as well.

    A slashdot user named Starkruzr joined them there as well:

    http://slashdot.org/~StarKruzr

    And, like his idol Jeremy Reimer? Had his butt handed to he as well and is probably heading for trouble along with his fellow arstechnica friends, because it is cyberstalking they are doing (following a person around, off topic and looking stupid on their parts, online to many forums listed there for years on end).

    You people @ slashdot are supposed to be good - but you post derivative drivel articles from this fool Jeremy Reimer?

    Jeremy Reimer has no degree or certification in computer sciences, no professional hands on experience in them (much less years or decades thereof), & obviously, no skills whatsoever, except making his arstechnica bunch look terrible!

  16. IRC logs by Tribbin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Slightly offtopic, but ...

    I seldom spend time on IRC.

    Two weeks ago I was on #debian.

    I asked the people if the conversations get logged.

    Nobody present could tell me.

    Is there a place when you can look up such things?

    --
    If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
    1. Re:IRC logs by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 2, Funny
      You might check here.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    2. Re:IRC logs by NevarMore · · Score: 1

      Officially logged: http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q =debian+IRC+chat+log&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=ut f-8 is a good start.

      Unofficially logged, well IRC is a lot like ham radio, once you broadcast it theres nothing you can do.

    3. Re:IRC logs by Thng · · Score: 1

      Yes there is a place to check if #debian is logged.

    4. Re:IRC logs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I seem to recall back when some scene busts were going down that it was reported that a certain big university EFNet server was reported to be logging traffic, as well as (I believe) demon.co.uk and one other. I'm not certain how IRC traffic works, but at the least all it takes is one user in the channel connecting via a compromised IRC server to have the entire channel logged.

      There is of course linknet where all traffic is encrypted. If you are concerned about such matters I would look into that.

      Linknet: http://www.link-net.org/

    5. Re:IRC logs by ShaunC · · Score: 2, Informative

      Anyone in any channel could be logging (and publishing) the conversation, even if not "officially." Much like Slashdot, don't say anything in IRC that you'd hate to have someone find via Google.

      --
      Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    6. Re:IRC logs by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      ... or bash.org

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    7. Re:IRC logs by paulmer2003 · · Score: 1

      Um, it would be impossible to find out if anyone in the channel were logging the conversations...There are no IRC server distributions out there that come with features to log users conversations...Awhile ago there was a module for Unrealircd to log users messages but its gone now..so, anyway, to answer your question, its impossible to find out if anybody else is logging. It would also be impossible to see if the server administrators changed the code so they could snoop on users messages.

  17. AOL by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 4, Funny

    Even though I never had an account with them, for the longest time they always seemed to know where I lived because they kept sending me CDs. Spooky.

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    1. Re:AOL by n3tcat · · Score: 1

      That's because AOL is from the future. First they predicted that America would be entirely online. Next, they tracked down every single citizen, and their addresses between the years of 1996 and 2016. Using the United States Space-Time Parcel Service, they mailed trillions of cds out from 2054 to the end of the internet they flooded the market, beginning one month before the end of the internet and then moving backwards through time for two decades previous until they felt they had properly saturated the timeline with their program.

      It's still unknown at this time if there is a connection between the name of the company, and the eventual domination (and subsequent termination) of American internet in the world market.

      In late 2014 AOL, ADMATI, SonynVidia, and iMicroApple merged to form Skynet, which became a major funding body in the 2016 election.

    2. Re:AOL by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 1

      I knew it! And here I've been using them as coasters and material for alternative artworks like a sucker:-/

      --
      If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
  18. Re:Time to encrypt (warning: *sarcasm*) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure they know where you went, but not what you viewed or 'said' while there. Well most people would just have encrypted connections to their public MySpace pages (after OK-ing that annoying invalid certificate prompt). Everyone knows that you can post whatever you like on your MySpace page, as long as you don't use your last name. That way no one will find it except your friends. And if you set a BIOS password (a good example is the brand name of your monitor or mouse), you can make sure that those annoying 3 letter agencies won't get into your computer while you're out of the house.
  19. VPN ISPs? by Joe+U · · Score: 1

    Aren't there VPN ISPs that terminate in neutral countries that can circumvent spying?

    1. Re:VPN ISPs? by cswiger · · Score: 3, Informative

      Um, the point of a VPN is to set up a secure tunnel to get to your destination network with the traffic encrypted en route, so it doesn't matter whether your ISP is snooping on your traffic or not. Now, if you wanted to host your destination server or network somewhere like Canada or someplace with less intrusive government monitoring, that might well be a good thought.

      The problem is that the US via CALEA is requiring things like Cisco routers used to terminate many VPN connections be wiretap-friendly, so using a VPN tunnel might not be as safe as it was before that law came about. Cisco has a page about this, but it doesn't actually give you much specific info:

      http://www.cisco.com/wwl/regaffairs/lawful_interce pt/

      --
      "The human race's favorite method for being in control of the facts is to ignore them." -Celia Green
    2. Re:VPN ISPs? by Joe+U · · Score: 1

      Actually, I was describing a VPN system where you terminated in some country that doesn't have rules like CALEA.

      So, I would tunnel to a friendly country like Sealand (example) and send all my packets out from there.

    3. Re:VPN ISPs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      1) The router would be in the safe country anyway, therefore wouldn't be subject to physical wiretaps at the endpoint.

      2) Don't waste your money on a Cisco router. It is MUCH easier and cheaper to just rent a Linux machine in a "safe country" and install OpenVPN on it.

      3) Most of your traffic is going to be routed back through the US or EU anyway, where most of the world's servers (and backbones) are located.

      4) Your "safe" routing node is still identifiable, even if your ISP refuses to give up your name/address. There are other ways of achieving the same goal through analyzing your traffic after it leaves the endpoint of your encrypted node.

  20. Re:tell me by buswolley · · Score: 0

    I've seen you post this response before. Do you sit also here at slashdot all day and night, with no life, no girlfriend etc?

    --

    A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

  21. Short Answer: Not just them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not just MAFIAA. Botnets, dymanic-IP network-ban evasion, and other such mockeries go across a network. Would you like to stop this kiddie who keeps spamming your IRC channel with goatzee links and evading your bans by merely unplugging his modem to keep doing it every single day for the existance of the channel? That's why abuse@ exists, and that's why they keep IP logs.

  22. Think about that... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Its time to encrypt EVERYTHING. ( at least until the government bans it )
    Sure they know where you went, but not what you viewed or 'said' while there.

    Back when I was operating a mailing list on a controversial topic on my home machine, I had a couple rules:
      - No postings soliciting or admitting to breaking laws.
      - No encrypted traffic (not just on the list: All traffic (except passwords) to-from the machine was in the clear).

    The thinking was like this:

      - Police, other government investigative agencies, and various unofficial snoops have a long track record of ignoring laws against various kinds of eavesdropping. So you have to assume that the line might be tapped.

      - If the police became interested they could always get a warrant and tap the line. (Or illegally tap the line without a warrant to see what's going on, then (if it looked interesting) get a warrant to tap it legally.)

      - If the data was encrypted they could STILL get it - by getting a warrant and seizing the computer (and everything else of interest in the house).

      - If the data was UNencrypted they would want to keep a low profile to avoid scaring off any "bad guys", would eventually see that there was nothing to go after, and thus would probably switch to hunting real bad guys elsewhere and go away WITHOUT breaking in and trashing stuff.

    "Encrypt everything" seems like a nice solution. But if only a few are doing it, just the fact that their traffic is encrypted makes them targets. It's easy to trump up enough stuff to get a warrant and go after the machine.

    Once a LOT of people are all swapping lots of encrypted traffic (as the default way of "sealing" the "envelope" on the datagrams) the fact of encryption will stop making the users targets. (The police can still get a warrant and grab the machines. But with so many potential machines to grab they'll have to find some other way to pick the ones to hit - like by bothering to dig up real "probable cause" from other evidence, like they're supposed to.)

    Fortunately we don't need to construct a "shelling point" for this: The internet is gradually moving toward pervasive encryption, as the legitimate need to encrypt for personal and corporate security becomes broadly understood. Once that becomes the norm our electronic "papers" will be about as secure as our physical ones. We're starting to get there. But IMHO we're not there yet.

    Unfortunately we WON'T be fully safe using encryption until the typical machine configurations are such that, if the machines are seized, it will be impossible to recover incriminating data from them - even with passwords browbeaten out of their owners. Until that time it will still be useful to bypass encryption by raiding one of the machines at the endpoints.

    = = = =

    Re the list and "no encrypted traffic": When one of the regulate-the-internet laws was about to make it too much hassle to continue, we closed down the list (after finding volunteers to run its successor and - since the participants hadn't agreed to have their info forwarded - announcing the successor on the original list and giving people time to sign up.

    Now I regularly use SSH to telecommute or to access the primary house machine from the vacation house. But that's still low-profile: It's clear from the IP addresses that the SSH connections are going to the company, coming from it, or coming from a single external dialup machine via a particular service provider.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Think about that... by BillS73 · · Score: 1

      Encryption is treated as a munition and is covered under the Treasury department. If the key to an encrypted message is not given on request, there is an immediate 2 year imprisonment for the crime. I last recall the discussion in the mid 1990s on the development of PGP. It sort of fits with the current Gitmo mind set. Sorry I can not recall more details. At the time I thought that was a good deterrence to encrypting messages. I will try Googling at the library - Treasury munition encryption penalty...

    2. Re:Think about that... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately we WON'T be fully safe using encryption until the typical machine configurations are such that, if the machines are seized, it will be impossible to recover incriminating data from them - even with passwords browbeaten out of their owners.

      step 1 run all your internet apps from a thumbdrive with portable versions.
      step 2 use a good encryption system on that thumbdrive that gives you deniability.
      step 3 keep the PC you use clean and seperate from your regular PC (laptop preferred and hideable.)
      step 4 be sure to have some extra deniability, have your wireless open and default config.

      These are incredibly simple things, Russians, Jews during WW-II hid who they were to avoid capture and murder, Chinese Christians, etc.... Very very old and common knowlege.
      It is not hard to thwart the secret police trying to get you and your evidence. Simply make it easy to destroy or hide the evidence while keeping clean and innocent "evidence" in plain sight for them to find. I know of someone that has tens of thousands in gold buried in tall PVC pipes on his land, no your metal detectors will not find it, too deep.

      The scary part, many people in the world have to do that to simply learn real information and exercise freedom. Here in the USA, we may have to start doing the same as well. Time to start burying your bibles or you will be executed!

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:Think about that... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      step 1 run all your internet apps from a thumbdrive with portable versions.
      step 2 use a good encryption system on that thumbdrive that gives you deniability.

      Step 2B. Don't let your thumb drive go through the washer and drier. (Just happened to me yesterday.) B-( (Fortunately not with a thumb drive containing the only copy of something important.)

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    4. Re:Think about that... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Encryption is treated as a munition and is covered under the Treasury department. If the key to an encrypted message is not given on request, there is an immediate 2 year imprisonment for the crime.

      In which case I'm already hosed. I've got a bunch of encrypted files lying about to which I've long since forgotten the pass phrases (which, according to standard advice about passwords, I NEVER wrote down). Nothing of interest to them, of course. (Just ancient personal stuff.) But try to convince them of that, once they've got a bee in their bonnets.

      Upside to really forgetting passwords is that they can't torture them out of you. Downside is there's no way to get them to stop trying.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  23. Re:ISP's fearful of RIAA/MPAA? by sgt_doom · · Score: 1

    But...does it really matter? With the government (i.e., the Busheviks) having dropped SilentRunner apps at each IXP location in North America, what does it really matter what those ISPs do.....

  24. Couch Potato Land by sciop101 · · Score: 1

    At http://www.net.tv/ you watch the ISP.

    --
    The only thing new in this world is the history that you don't know.[Harry Truman]
  25. sAKafdfDds6SFALGI5as4fdf564saDDdaASDSsdaf by digitalderbs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    fdD87d

    64F5F6sAS4Dd46KJfUYd0NsafH54UJ6Y35U135KdYUsU1Jf35W Q544ASdf455saSA1dfF3AS5D5WQsEa5dr413L50fSAdDsA3QW5 DsfDfdALJd99AD09asdfK9J00aUIOsdfOU9I0dIaOU46IOsCVd Xf61S DF325eLJw5LKljLk3kjl18dfaw3F3DSADFsdfYDOewrs313aSS dfADuy5SA135D1H155yipHoiSDAjnkml51151LHHkmfSASd217

    JD3hFdJf8o

    SD45uio5K2o

    1. Re:sAKafdfDds6SFALGI5as4fdf564saDDdaASDSsdaf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I'm so bored that I actually took the time to visualize the path your left hand took as you dragged it all over your keyboard while intermittently going for the shift key with your right. I bet it sounded cool. I also bet your roommate heard it and thinks you're insane.

    2. Re:sAKafdfDds6SFALGI5as4fdf564saDDdaASDSsdaf by dog_surfer · · Score: 1

      Left handed Dvorak rot is not the path of a Stainless Steel Rat.

    3. Re:sAKafdfDds6SFALGI5as4fdf564saDDdaASDSsdaf by IHSW · · Score: 1

      HOW is this insightful? wtf?

    4. Re:sAKafdfDds6SFALGI5as4fdf564saDDdaASDSsdaf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is supposed to be encrypted. Obviously.

    5. Re:sAKafdfDds6SFALGI5as4fdf564saDDdaASDSsdaf by Frogbert · · Score: 3, Funny

      HOW is this insightful? wtf?
      kkskdmJJvnjAJnfnUwevPKaslaALmQMmkvkKMDMtnkemMmkSKm EMmskkdlOPIBnNWNu87wjjdGHW
    6. Re:sAKafdfDds6SFALGI5as4fdf564saDDdaASDSsdaf by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      455FE1 0422CA29!

        C4933F95,
      052B79 2AB2

  26. Re:ISP's fearful of RIAA/MPAA? by element-o.p. · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's a little more to it than that.

    Most ISPs assign dynamic IP addresses to the majority of their customers. Where I used to work, we used RADIUS to provide dynamic IP addressing to our customers, and we would keep logs that would let us determine which customer had any given IP address on any given day and time. This data was used to help troubleshoot customer login problems, resolve billing disputes with customers, suspend and/or warn customers who had violated our terms and conditions of use, and yes, to fulfill subpoena requests.

    However, we absolutely, positively refused to provide subscriber information without a court order of some kind, however. I would like to think that most ISPs operate to the same standards we did.

    --
    MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  27. Looks like it's time for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    A whole lot more TOR servers to sprout up. When everyone switches to encrypted traffic on all the normal ports, your connections might be logged and the data transferred between you and the onion network copied, but how long would it take to sift through the internet's traffic if it were all encrypted?

  28. That's pure troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but if I were to hazard a guess I'd reckon they'd sell my tracks
    You mean you don't know, and are just foaming.

    the goons who think just about any kind of encrypted traffic coming out of your box is a terrorist threat to the movie industry -- even if it's just a VPN connection.
    What goons? At Rogers? Somewhere else? Be specific. Oh, you don't know again?

    Does anyone know what Rogers retention policies actually are?
    Why yes, ANYONE WHO LOOKS IT UP ON THE ROGERS WEBSITE.

    What idiot moderated that post as Score:4, Informative? There is nothing in it whatsoever.
  29. Now that we know what to expect..... by 3seas · · Score: 1

    ... consider what your reaction to this is going to be.

    Suggested Search terms:
    "Well damn, if I look at crack sites, am I going to be busted for attempted piracy" when I was really looking for a download 30 trial of autodesk Inventor 2008. Its also interesting that directly after the last law related passed, all crack sites are asking for some small amount of payment --- so as to verify identity....

    I'm absolutely certain that search terms can be made to communicate to the spys well enough to cause a "MAD - Spy vs. Spy" episode in real life internet.....

    I also discovered that AT&T (bellsouth) can see even my passwords to email accounts not on their network if I use their network to access it. And note even I don't get to see the password I type in......

    There is a whole bunch of shit going down so it should be real easy to cause such a spy vs spy event... perhaps one dealing with the fraud of software patents.

    1. Re:Now that we know what to expect..... by adarklite · · Score: 1

      Email, even passwords, are in cleartext. It'd be like being asked to pass a one word note in red with the ink faded through and not be able to read it.

    2. Re:Now that we know what to expect..... by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

      your passwords are in cleartext.

      mine are not.

      all my email goes over SSL or TLS connections.

      --
      They're using their grammar skills there.
    3. Re:Now that we know what to expect..... by adarklite · · Score: 1

      I don't really care. If someone wants to read my spam or the chain emails my family sends me they are welcome to. All my important stuff comes through snail mail or bittorrent client.

  30. Obligatory by The+Orange+Mage · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Russia, Internet browse YOU.

    1. Re:Obligatory by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      hahahahaha.

  31. Optimum Online by jtull89 · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, this doesn't cover my ISP, Optimum Online. :-(

    1. Re:Optimum Online by computational+super · · Score: 1

      The Decepticons will be pleased.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    2. Re:Optimum Online by jtull89 · · Score: 1

      I don't follow. What do you mean?

    3. Re:Optimum Online by computational+super · · Score: 1

      "Optimum Online" sounds (to me) like "Optimus Prime", the leader of the Autobots (the good Transformers who opposed the bad Decepticons). I was trying to be moderately funny so that somebody with mod-points would throw me a bone since my life is hollow and meaningless and the only joy I have are the funny mods that I get, but I think I went too obscure.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    4. Re:Optimum Online by jtull89 · · Score: 1

      I hope you mean that ironically.

  32. Re:ISP's fearful of RIAA/MPAA? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    Actually providing the authorities with a history of the data is not their job and should only be the acquired by the authorities with their own equipment and only under a court order. Actually, that is the new trend in law enforcement -forcing businesses to enforce the laws so the police don't have to. This frees up the police for more important things, like going after the businesses for not adequately enforcing the laws.

    Brick and mortar businesses are required to make sure that their customers don't smoke or drink in the wrong places, that they aren't buying for someone who is underage, that they are not selling drugs, or even whether their driver's license is expired. If you own a business, you can be fined or worse for not enforcing these laws. Why shouldn't the ISPs also be turned into unwilling, unpaid police officers.
  33. Time of Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    four national ISPs would not give Wired the time of day
    What, they blocked port 123?

  34. Re:All of them, DUH - NO. Some do the right thing by enselsharon · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Although not an ISP per se, my offsite backup provider publishes a warrant canary:

    http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt

    In addition to a stated policy of "No data or meta-data concerning the behavior of our customers or filesystem contents will ever be divulged to any law enforcement agency without order served directly by a US court having jurisdiction. All such orders will be reported to our entire customer base."

    You should read their philosophy page.

  35. Secure proxy? by HangingChad · · Score: 1

    but it's that very effort that makes it cost prohibitive to do it across a broad scale

    That's a good idea. Poisoning the data well.

    I'm wondering if a secure proxy would defeat your ISP's snooping? For some reason I was thinking it's possible to snoop https traffic. Difficult, but possible. It would certainly be a pain the rear and an ISP would need a good reason to go to all the trouble. Especially with so many, many people who wouldn't bother. All the search engine would have is the proxy IP, all your ISP would have is one IP address. It would be possible to match up those records, but who has the resources for that effort?

    You think it's worth what it takes to set up?

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  36. Re:All of them, DUH - NO. Some do the right thing by RDaneel2 · · Score: 4, Informative

    "... All such orders will be reported to our entire customer base."

    Ummm... dream on about this part (at least), as "Patriot Act"-backed demands (with or without a warrant) can forbid the disclosure of said demand.

    And while an especially conscientious service provider might insist on dotting i's and crossing t's, it is doubtful any of their personnel (or bosses) will be willing to be jailed as a "terrorist". :(

  37. Re:ISP's fearful of RIAA/MPAA? by number11 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    However, we absolutely, positively refused to provide subscriber information without a court order of some kind, however. I would like to think that most ISPs operate to the same standards we did

    I would like to think that no ISP would ever spy on me or keep records of my activities. I would like to think that no ISP would provide data without a court order. Unfortunately, what I would like to think bears little relation to what actually is. And my understanding is that the (US) government no longer requires a court order to demand such things.

  38. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by enselsharon · · Score: 1
    That is what the canary is for (!)

    Read this again:

    rsync.net warrant canary

    If they are served with a secret warrant, they simply stop updating the warrant canary...

  39. Re:All of them, DUH - NO. Some do the right thing by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

    TOS aside, you still can't trust your ISP. They may be gagged, or commandeered by the law (or illegally for that matter). Think Echelon, Carnivore, etc. Trustno1 is not just a password, my friend!

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  40. The Article Seems To Be Incomplete by Soloact · · Score: 1

    It seems to me that there are a whole lot more "major" ISPs than those listed in the article as being contacted. IMHO, it isn't a very complete study.

  41. Too Easy by mpapet · · Score: 1

    Oh yeah, let's ignore the Average American Citizen's role in bringing this all about.

    -Stare at the TV 4 hours a day

    -Stop participating in your Government.

    -Allow Civics/government programs to be gutted.

    -Turn away from reason to embrace The Lord.

    It's _soo_ easy to whip off comments like yours. But it's more patriotic to be labled a Democratic (as in democracy) nut job.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  42. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by general_re · · Score: 1

    That is what the canary is for (!)

    Read this again:

    rsync.net warrant canary

    If they are served with a secret warrant, they simply stop updating the warrant canary...

    Which, since everyone knows what it means, effectively functions as a way of disclosing that they've been served with a warrant demanding nondisclosure. I hope they're not relying on whatever lawyer told them that this was a good idea to bail them out after the fact, or they may be in for a rather rude surprise.
    --
    ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
  43. That's why I use duplicity ... by enselsharon · · Score: 1

    http://duplicity.nongnu.org/

  44. Its the Public Internet, what do you expect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Call Detail Records - ISPs tend to hang on to them for at least a years time. This has been going on since the dawn of time and in several areas there are local regulations governing CDR retention for assisting legitimate LEA activities. They are typically also used for billing purposes and are sometimes quite useful for customers to access their own call records to see in their family...etc is using their accounts. IMHO NBD

    Selling traffic analysis of customers is not cool and if I knew my ISP was selling my traffic stats I would immediatly cancel my account and go with one who wasn't. Crap like this should not be tolerated.

    The surveillance CALEA issue is sad -- nothing like giving yourself more power by reinterpreting the english language in the face of explicit wording from congress in the public record to the contrary.

    Why go to congress to mess up your country with a new law when you can do it yourself by rewriting the english language.

    Its not like there were not laws already on the books covering assistance with investigations and court orders. ISPs were never in a legal position to say no to a legit court order.

    1. Re:Its the Public Internet, what do you expect? by phantomflanflinger · · Score: 1

      ISPs were never in a legal position to say no to a legit court order.
      Seriously, you think they don't do that?

      Last post! Finally I got one! Plots Sat! Stop Lats! (This is the kind of thing I'm supposed to say here, isn't it?)

      --
      shin phantomflanflinger
  45. won't work by jtgd · · Score: 1
    It seems trivially easy for the government to simply monitor this application and omit from their logs every search involving any two words from the apps dictionary. A perfectly clean log of your actual searches will remain.

    --J

    --
    J
  46. take the spy out of the ISP-y by talledega500 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    We all saw this coming. I prefer to do something about it. http://www.mysecureisp.com/ http://www.blackboxsearch.com/

  47. Take the SPY out of ISP-y by talledega500 · · Score: 2, Informative

    We all saw this coming.
    I prefer to do something about it.

    http://www.mysecureisp.com/

    http://www.blackboxsearch.com/

  48. 010000100110100101101110011000010111001001111001 by Barkmullz · · Score: 3, Funny

    01000011011011110110110101101101011101010110111001 10100101100011011000010111010001100101001000000110 10010110111000100000011000100110100101101110011000 01011100100111100100101110001000000101010001101000 01100101011110010010000001110111011010010110110001 10110000100000011000100110010100100000011101010110 11100110000101100010011011000110010100100000011101 00011011110010000001100100011010010111001101110100 01101001011011100110011101110101011010010111001101 10100000100000011110010110111101110101011100100010 00000110110101100101011100110111001101100001011001 11011001010010000001100110011100100110111101101101 00100000011000010110110001101100001000000111010001 10100001100101001000000110111101110100011010000110 01010111001000100000001100010010011101110011001000 00011000010110111001100100001000000011000000100111 01110011001011100010000000100000010000110110110001 10010101110110011001010111001000101100001000000111 01010110100000111111

    --
    Ronald said nothing. He flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse, and rode madly off in all directions.
  49. Yes the are by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    See here: http://www.bash.org./

    Ok so maybe I'm being a smartass but you have to assume that everything on IRC is logged. Many users log everything just as a matter of course, or because their software does it automatically. I doubt servers normally keep logs as they'd be rather large, but nothing legally or technically is stopping them.

    IRC is essentially a public forum.

  50. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by Eivind · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sort of. But it's an interesting idea. The law *does* prevent them from stating that they've been raided, in certain situations anyway.

    But does the same law have the power to force them to continue publishing signed lies ? That's what they'd be doing if they continued to claim that they have never been raided after they where indeed raided.

    I don't know enough US-law to know the answer, but atleast it's not obvious that it wouldn't work.

  51. Re:01000010011010010110111001100001011100100111100 by Robmonster · · Score: 1

    ...which roughly translated means don't stand around jabbering when your life is in mortal danger

    --
    I have no sig yet I must scream.
  52. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The law *does* prevent them from stating that they've been raided, in certain situations anyway.

    Heh... so it seems like they should publish a weekly message saying that they have been raided, even though it would be a lie. Then, if ever they are raided, they would be required to stop publishing it... unlike the situtation now, where they could just keep posting these messages :)

  53. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by Eivind · · Score: 1

    As a general rule, judges don't appreciate people playing games to obey the *letter* of the law while breaking the spirit of it.

  54. Re:01000010011010010110111001100001011100100111100 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Communicate in binary. They will be unable to distinguish your message from all the other 1's and 0's. Clever, uh?

  55. Can't read the article... by rtechie · · Score: 1

    At least I can't. The article in question has a giant AT&T ad that pops up and covers almost the entire article, and it doesn't go away when you click it. At least in IE6. Don't post this shit if it's unreadable due to advertising.

    1. Re:Can't read the article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Don't post this shit if it's unreadable due to advertising.

      Don't post this shit if you cannot get access to a real browser. Good grief, there are free ones that will even run on a 386 that are better choices.

  56. Similar in the UK by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

    It's similar in the UK, I think. Most ISPs hook into the national broadband infrastructure provided by BT (unless they're using LLU). BT represent this internal infrastructure as a cloud, with no explanation of what's happening between BT and the ISPs.

  57. Beating a dead horse by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

    Use encryption. PGP, IPSec, IPv6 for that matter. Please, for (insert random name here)'s sake, just use the technology your PC already provides. Sure, it won't stop the FBI knocking down your door, but encrypting every connection you can is better than doing everything in the clear.

    Encrypt your E-mails, use secure storage options, etc. There is a lot of security available out there, its just that people are too lazy to use it.

    --
    - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
  58. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

    As a general rule, judges don't appreciate people playing games to obey the *letter* of the law while breaking the spirit of it.

    Unless those people are large corporations, rich people or politicians, right? That's what you meant to say, right?

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  59. Virtual WireTapping by cottonslurpy · · Score: 1

    So what's the difference here between the illegal wiretapping that mr. bush is doing now, and recording all of your activity and voip calls over the net. Looks like we now have a new invasion of privacy called, virtual wiretapping. It's not like we have a choice of internet providers that we can select from; it's already a monopoly in most areas, and it's not being deregulated, to give us competitions and lower prices, because the government is happy being able to go to one warehouse to get all their information. Slowly but surely, our liberties fade. I use to think the people ran the government, but it's clearly a society of people run by the government(*cough* corporations).

    1. Re:Virtual WireTapping by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      It's not like we have a choice of internet providers that we can select from

      One thing you need to understand: you can never have a choice about the whole route. Getting rid of monopolies or abusive government won't fix the problem. Suppose you found the magic ISP that (illegally?) does not spy on you. They still have to hand the packets off to some other network, unless you're only talking to other people who use that same ISP. Who is that other network? Someone who isn't accountable to you, that's who.

      The situation always has been, always will be, this: the network is untrustworthy.

      Once you accept that, I mean really accept that, then you'll quit expecting the ISP to protect you, and you'll realize where the responsibility really lies.

      If you and whoever you talk to agree to encrypt, then you can encrypt. And it's very, very hard for anyone to stop you. They might outlaw it someday, but they still can't really stop you.

      The situation is far from hopeless. If there's anything really worth bitching about here, it's the sheeplike attitude and ignorance that is keeping people from doing what they need to do. We are our worst enemy, not the ISPs, not the governments, not the private detectives and marketers. We can have privacy overnight, if we decide to stop being victims.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    2. Re:Virtual WireTapping by cottonslurpy · · Score: 1

      I dont completely disagree, but if a company just says, "Here's all their information," I can't help but yell WTF. No network is completely secure, but just taking the lock off the door completely and saying , "here ya go, take whatever you want, just give us money for whatever information you take" is ridiculous. How about, lower my bill or give me some profit sharing, if you're selling my information, my activities, my life. The net is here to stay, but we shouldn't have to completely eliminate our privacy to use it.

  60. IP assignment retention? Who cares?! DPI! Eeek! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm more worried about ISPs that have DPI (Deep Packet Inspection) devices in place along with the retention times on THAT data. Just knowing someone's IP and what IP they connected to is essentially getting a list of phone numbers you dialed. DPI allows the provider to hear the first 5 words of every sentence in that phone call.

    I can think of one ISP that already has this in place...

  61. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by CantStopDancing · · Score: 1

    Then the law needs to be clarified, and a jury can notify the judge of this with a 'not guilty' verdict.

    --
    I'm running a pirated copy of Linux.
  62. Re:ISP's fearful of RIAA/MPAA? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

    I believe that's being challenged right now. Wasn't there a guy recently arrested for refusing to turn over information requested in a National Security Letter and for contacting a lawyer to have the NSL challenged? I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I believe I read that here on /. The bottom line is, until SCOTUS rules on the legality of NSLs, their validity is in question. So, for now, my response to an NSL would be: http://www.gecko-ak.org/SpecialPurposeSigFile.txt :)

    In any case, your point is taken -- there are plenty of people who will cave under even the slightest pressure, unfortunately.

    --
    MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  63. Bell Sympatico == Evil by Deadplant · · Score: 1

    Here in Canada the largest ISP is Bell Sympatico (alias: bell nexxia).
    They are pure evil when it comes to privacy. Less than a year ago they ammended their terms of service to give themselves the right to monitor (content included) anything and everything you do on the internet at their whim and share the information with any government agency that asks for it. (no stipulations that the agency must be Canadian or be making a legal request for information).

    That was presumably an attempt to protect themselves from lawsuits because of what they've been doing for fracking years.
    Bell routes almost all their traffic through new york and/or boston!
    Thus all Canadian Internet traffic carried by Bell is snooped by the out-of-control american spy agencies.
    It is shocking really, to get a packet literally across the street here in Ottawa Bell will route you through New York.

    I have not been able to think of a reason for this behaviour other than for the express purpose of facilitating privacy violations.

    Furthermore, our national security agencies have to be aware of this and the ramifications for Canadian citizens.
    (unless they are shockingly incompetent) Thus I have to conclude that our own government is complicit. Perhaps our government is receiving some of the fruits of this spying.
    Such a scheme would be consistent with historic agreements between our countries.
    In fact, this could even be happening as part of one of our existing co-spy agreements.

  64. Didn't respond by Kwesadilo · · Score: 1

    Comcast, EarthLink, Verizon and Time Warner didn't respond.

    Regardless of what their actual policy is, it disturbs me that these companies wouldn't even care enough about user privacy to respond to the questions. Especially Verizon, because Verizon provides my Internet service. Surely they could at least must enough decency to say "No comment." Unfortunately, that quote appeared 3 times in the article.

    --
    This space reserved for administrative use.
  65. Speakeasy? by happyfrogcow · · Score: 1

    So what about Speakeasy?

    1. Re:Speakeasy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does all your traffic stay on Speakeasy's network, or do you communicate with The Internet? If you're an Internet user, then the answer is: who cares about Speakeasy? You're still watchable.

  66. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They might not appreciate it, but they often go along with it.

  67. Re:Sure... We spy..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've worked for 4 ISPs and I agree there isn't man power to track down every users activities. However it is quite feasible to capture a network stream from anywhere in our network for further analysis. It's also quite trivial to locate and filter out certain types of traffic.

    Please remember that the provider of the IM network is court mandated to keep all IM chat's on file for 6 years. Your email goes through an email server which was once snooped by a project called carnivore, but has been replaced with a new system that sits on the internet backbone. As far as web surfing histories, their stored in two places, your browser history and webcaches. Activity on a file sharing network can be monitored by joining as a leaf node.

    Are you still feeling like your not being watched, then go take a look at the great firewall of China.

  68. charter communications... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ...gives you 164 words that can be boiled-down to two: "pound sand".
    ______________
    How long does Charter maintain personally identifiable information?

    "Charter will maintain personally identifiable information about Customer only as long as Customer is a subscriber to Charter's services, or as long as necessary for the purpose for which it was collected. If Customer is no longer a subscriber to Charter's services and the information is no longer necessary for the purpose for which it was collected, Charter will only keep personally identifiable information as long as necessary to comply with laws governing our business. These laws include, but are not limited to, tax and accounting requirements that require record retention. Charter will also maintain personally identifiable information to satisfy pending requests or orders for access by a subscriber to his/her information or pursuant to a court order. Charter will destroy Customers' personally identifiable information when the information is no longer necessary for the purpose for which it was collected, when there are no longer pending requests for such information, and when it is no longer necessary to retain the information under applicable laws."

  69. But datamining of clickstreams is stil an issue by schwaang · · Score: 1

    When it comes to spying, there are several types:
    1) What gov't/law enforcement does (whether legally or nsa-style). This is done to enforce the law or for political control.
    2) What HP's Patti Dunn or other private entities do to further a specific interest. Marginally legal at best.
    3) What ChoicePoint, Axciom, etc. do. Amassing databases of identity and transactional information and selling datamining services usually for business purposes (and now also for gov't purposes). Still legal but mostly under-the-radar of public awareness.
    4) What doubleclick and possibly some ISPs do -- the datamining of clickstreams mainly for the purpose of marketing.

    #4 in particular is addressed by TFA, and encryption is not a real solution to that issue.

    If my ISP is collecting clickstreams (i.e. the list of websites you visit) and using them for marketing purposes, I want to know about it.

  70. comcaqst harms noone. by yahurd · · Score: 0

    dont worry guys i know for a fact that comcast is comcastic and you should run for your life to comcast.com its out to get you comcastic and they are monitoring me noone right now!!!! help me yourself with triple play!

  71. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by Eivind · · Score: 1

    No. Even then the judges don't appreciate it. They may in certain cases have to put up with it for sligthly longer, to guard against the possibility that judgements are overturned on appeal as a result of rushing things.

    Still, willfully ignoring the spirit of law or the orders of the judge, while nominally complying with the *letter* of it, is a great way to annoy most judges. It's unlikely to benefit you in the medium term, and not something I'd recommend.

    Witness SCO. True, it does take ridicolosuly long times in the US court-system before the shit really starts hitting the fan, and that is regrettable, because it means *stalling* can indeed be effective for literally a *decade* which imho is totally unacceptable.

    But inevitably, the shit *will* hit the fan. And when it does, it tends to end up grinding the abuser into very fine dust-particles. SCO will certainly go bust. Only a pity that they don't have more money. As it is, those investing in SCO will (collectively) lose every cent they invested. That is as it should be. Only a pity that didn't happen 5 years ago. It allowed some people to get out with a rest-value, probably some people even got out with a profit, those that sold very soon after the initial filing of the case, before it became obvious how full of crap it is.

    Still, the lesson is likely to be instructive. I doubt we'll see repeat-performances soon. We may see a variant where patents are used instead of copyrigths, though.

  72. Re:you should read more closely ... the canary ... by Eivind · · Score: 1

    It's not possible to write totally unambigously. Furthermore, trying to hard, by explicitly stating things which are common sense makes the situation *worse* because there's a tendency to be more loopholes in 10000-word laws than in 1000-word laws. Furthermore increased complexity of law benefits those with the most resources, because they're the ones with the most hope of finding and understanding every last detail.