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What Happens If You Don't Pay for Goodmail?

Bennett Haselton has written in with his latest report. He starts "Goodmail has announced partnerships with four new ISPs who will charge for "reliable" delivery of your e-mail messages if you want to bypass their spam filters. The news will probably generate another round of editorials like the ones written a year ago about AOL's plan to use Goodmail, including this one from Esther Dyson (for it) and this one from the EFF (against it)." Follow the magical clicky clicker below to read the rest of this story.

If I could ask one serious question of anyone who was defending pay-per-email, or sitting on the fence about it, this would be it: Suppose you sent an extremely urgent e-mail to your doctor or your lawyer, who for the sake of argument you're not able to reach by phone. The recipient's ISP owner happens to see the message before the user retrieves it, and realizes how urgently you need to get it through. So he moves it to the recipient's "spam" folder, and then calls you up and says: pay me $1,000 to move it to the recipient's inbox, or they'll never see it.

Does the ISP have the right to do that? If not, why not?

Perhaps you'd say that Goodmail's 1/4-penny-per-message is reasonable, but $1,000 for one message is too much. But then who decides what is "too much"? The marketplace? Then isn't the ISP admin just another player in the market, and $1,000 is what they want to charge? If you don't like it, you can go somewh... oh, wait, you can't, because there's no other way to get through to the recipient. If you ever get through to your doctor or lawyer, they might switch ISPs after they hear what happened, but should that be your only recourse?

The problem with the ISP charging $1,000 to deliver your message is not that $1,000 is "too much", but that they're charging for a service that has already been paid for. If your doctor or lawyer pays for an e-mail address, they're doing so with the understanding that their ISP will make a reasonable effort to deliver the non-spam e-mails that people try to send them. If their ISP then turns around and asks you for $1,000 to deliver the e-mail, then they're trying to double-bill for the same service, and if they block the message because you don't pay the $1,000, then the ISP is cheating the recipient out of a service that they've already purchased. And it's not just the recipient being cheated; if the recipient has an arrangement with you, as your doctor or lawyer would, then the ISP is interfering in their business relationship with you.

Now, if an ISP using Goodmail offers to let you bypass their filters by paying 1/4 penny per message, how is that different from the doctor example? Well, on the face of it, it's different in at least two ways: first, because the ISP is charging "only" 1/4 penny per message instead of $1,000, and second, they're not saying that your mail will be blocked if you don't pay, only that it might be. But are these qualitative differences, or just differences in degree?

Take the cost-per-message. I have a (verified opt-in) mailing list of about 50,000 people that I send mail to twice a week. In the aggregate, it is just important for me to get mail out to those subscribers, as it is for some people to get a single mail through to their doctor or lawyer. Also, in the aggregate, it would cost me about $1,000 per month if the ISPs collectively asked for 1/4 penny per message and threatened to block them otherwise. So is there any real difference between requesting $1,000 to unblock 50,000 e-mails, and requesting $1,000 to unblock a single e-mail, if you're just doing it because you know the sender urgently needs to get them through? (It's not a reflection of the ISP's costs -- downloading and storing 50,000 messages at 3 K each, costs almost nothing, certainly not anything close to $1,000. And again, I would argue it's a moot point anyway, because those services have already been paid for.)

And how much difference is there, really, between saying that a message (or a group of messages) might be blocked, and saying that a message definitely will be blocked? If it's bad for your doctor's ISP to call you up and say, "Give me $1,000 or there's a 100% chance that your message doesn't get through," what if they say, "Give me $1,000 or there's a 50% chance that your message doesn't get through," isn't that at least 50% as bad? You could say that in my doctor example, the blocking was deliberate, but in the case of the spam filter, it's accidental. But if an ISP chooses not to fix problems with its spam filter, then in a way it's still deliberately creating a certain percentage of cases where the spam filter will block legitimate mail, even if those cases occur at random.

There is one more difference between Goodmail and the scenarios I've described, which is that Goodmail not only lets you bypass an ISP's spam filters, it also certifies that you are trusted and not a phisher. If an ISP like AOL controls the user-interface that a user uses to check their mail, it can display the blue-ribbon "CertifiedEmail" icon next to a Goodmail-certified message. In this case, an ISP can plausibly claim that they're letting all legitimate e-mail get through, but they're still offering a benefit to Goodmail senders. The problem with this is that since phishing only works on users who are gullible to begin with, a phish could just as easily display the CertifiedEmail icon in the body of the message to try and gain a user's trust. It's all very well to say that a user should know that the CertifiedEmail icon only "counts" when it's displayed in the inbox, not in the message itself. But a user who knows that, would probably also know that their bank's Web page is not 209.211.253.169. And besides, most users of Comcast, Cox, RoadRunner and Verizon will be using their own mail clients like Eudora which won't display the "CertifiedEmail" icon anyway.

So it seems pretty clear that the main benefit of using Goodmail will be deliverability. And that's the basic Catch-22: If an ISP gives the same deliverability to non-Goodmail-certified messages, then who's going to use it? On the other hand, if an ISP gives better deliverability to Goodmail-certified messages than to other messages (much more likely), then they are to some extent misrepresenting the services they sell to their users, since users expect an ISP to make the best effort to deliver all legitimate e-mails, not just the ones from paying senders.

Goodmail likens their service to FedEx or UPS for "enhanced delivery" of paper mail as a way of getting the recipient's attention. But the difference is that if you're trying to reach your lawyer, then the office complex where he works (or the city that maintains the streets to his house) is providing the service that he expects and has paid for, namely, allowing different companies to deliver stuff to him there -- and because you have different choices, that means FedEx, UPS and the USPS have to compete with each other, and that keeps the delivery prices down. On the other hand, if an ISP blocks you from mailing their customer unless you pay their fee, then the ISP is going against what the customer expects them to do, and it is precisely that betrayal of trust that gives the ISP a monopoly on your ability to reach the customer -- which leads to them charging monopoly-style prices, like $1,000 to receive and store a few tens of thousands of messages.

There is a lot of debate about whether "the market" would fix problems of legitimate e-mail being lost. Esther Dyson's editorial was a classic libertarian defense of the free market as the arbiter of systems like Goodmail: "If it's a good model, it will succeed and improve over time. If it's a bad model, it will fail. Why not let the customers decide?" Actually I don't think the free market does fix most e-mail deliverability problems -- I've been involved in a few business that sent bulk e-mail (to subscribers who requested it and confirmed their subscriptions), and have had conversations with dozens of others, and we've all had problems sending to Hotmail, AOL, and Yahoo, and I've never, ever heard anyone say that their deliverability problems were solved by "the market". (Usually the problems just come and go, and nobody knows why.) But in a way this is all beside the point. Even if the market would stop more egregious abuses, what gives ISPs the right to charge senders for e-mail services that their customers have already paid for?

I actually met Richard Gingras, the CEO of Goodmail, and Charles Stiles, the postmaster of AOL, at a conference in Seattle last year where they were on a panel defending against the Goodmail controversy. They seemed like nice guys who were genuinely blindsided by the criticism that Goodmail had been receiving. It's easy to see the point of view of Goodmail's defenders -- if Bob wants to pay Alice to "certify" Bob, why would it be anybody else's business? It isn't, until it leads ISPs to steer people towards a system where if you want to be treated like a non-spammer, you have to pay -- even if, strictly speaking, the recipient is already paying to receive your mail.

As for the much-vaunted free whitelisting privileges that non-Goodmail senders will continue to enjoy, in the pre-Goodmail era I once found that AOL was blocking some of my mail to their users, so I called their postmaster department and learned the following facts:

  • The first person I talked to, said that he checked the logs and our mail was being blocked because we didn't have reverse DNS set up. I thought this was odd because we did have it configured, but I thanked him and hung up.
  • Then, I called back and got someone different. I asked them the same question and they said that according to his logs, our mail was being blocked because someone else at our ISP was sending spam. I asked him why they were blocking our IP address, if it was different from the IP of the alleged spammer; he paused and said, "Is there anything else I can help you with?", and this repeated several times as I thought my phone or his headset wasn't working, before I realized he was just being a dork.
  • Then, I called back and got yet another person, and this person said that he could see our mail was being blocked because it contained banned content. I was pretty sure that was wrong, because you get a different-looking bounce if you're sending mail that contains a banned string, but I took a note of that anyway.
  • Then, I called back and got a fourth person, who said that our mail was being blocked because some of their users had flagged mail from our IP address as spam. He paused for a brief conversation in the background, then came back and added, "This has already been explained to you, sir." I said that since I had gotten four different explanations in four different phone calls, I figured I could just keep calling and tallying the votes that I got for each explanation, until one of them emerged as the winner.

Much later I found out from someone else about the AOL whitelisting program, which I'm currently trying to see if it prevents us from getting blocked. But if none of the people answering the phone at the postmaster department knew or told me about it (and I confirmed that it did exist at the time), how many other organizations or businesses don't know?

ISPs adopting Goodmail say that while Goodmail senders can bypass their spam filters, non-Goodmail senders will continue to enjoy the same deliverability rates that they have in the past. That's what I'm afraid of.

63 of 379 comments (clear)

  1. The big deal about spam... by danpsmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't get the big deal about spam. Honestly, you get more junkmail than regular mail on a daily basis, but yet there's no big call to outlaw regular postage and allow only confirmed 3rd parties to send you mail. Why the hell should e-mail be any different? If you want my opinion they should make Internet access a utility just like phone, electric and other things and regulate the piss out of ISPs so they can't start payola practices such as "send us $100 dollars or the e-mail gets it." Spam isn't a bigger deal than junkmail, it's actually less costly, so why do we care so much that we'd let them ruin e-mail?

    --
    Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
    1. Re:The big deal about spam... by aicrules · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I only get around 10 parcels of mail a day. It is typically 70% "spam" but it's relatively easy to sort because there are only 10 parcels. If each day I received 500 parcels with still only 3 being things I requested (bills, letters from home, etc..) then I would be severely put off and would definitely be causing a stink. It costs money to send snailmail spam though, so it ends up not being worth the cost in many cases. And I have never received a viagra/penis enlargement ad in the snailmail either...probably something to do with the questionable legality of most of those offers.

    2. Re:The big deal about spam... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Spam isn't a bigger deal than junkmail

      YES, IT IS. It wastes YOUR ISP's hard-drive, it wastes YOUR time, and it wastes YOUR ISP's BANDWIDTH.

      In snail mail at least the junkmailers pay for the mail. With SPAM, they're using YOUR resources to do business. Not to mention promoting the use of botnets and viruses and spyware. They're disrupting the whole e-mail system, don't you get it? About 90% of e-mail I get is spam. That's 10-to-1 ratio. If you don't consider that a big deal, then you've gotten so close to garbage that you forgot how "clean" smells.

    3. Re:The big deal about spam... by packetmon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Less costly according to whom. Ever had to buy a Barracuda spam filter? Set up Spamassasin, etal. If you've ever worked at an ISP, spam isn't as cheap as you'd think. Imagine receiving and having to filter 1million plus messages of spam a day. Imagine as that ISP your NSP is passing off the extra charge to you. You do realize that inside those annoying spam messages, many are often images. Image_size * Amount_Of_Mail = Amount_of_Extra_Bandwidth_You_Don't_Need.

    4. Re:The big deal about spam... by ch-chuck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you get more junkmail than regular mail on a daily basis

      I don't encourage that either - in fact you can go to Direct Marketing Association and pay a buck to get on a kind of 'do not mail' like (voluntary by DMA members, not enforced by law like on telemarketers).

      Another thing I had to stop was a local newspaper trying a new business model. I had canceled subscription to the regular newspaper, but they started delivering a small printing of ads and a few articles - so once a week I had to walk out on the lawn and pick up a yellow bag, what is basically garbage a motor route guy tossed there, and put it in the trash. I just went ballistic getting that stopped. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it - get off my lawn!

      --
      try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    5. Re:The big deal about spam... by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      YES, IT IS. It wastes YOUR ISP's hard-drive, it wastes YOUR time, and it wastes YOUR ISP's BANDWIDTH.

      Paper spam wastes the environment. So does spam (through energy consumption; internet hardware has had to be significantly expanded to accomodate spam.) It's all bad.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:The big deal about spam... by frooddude · · Score: 2, Informative

      FYI - it is not voluntary to DMA members. It is required of DMA members. DMA will put the smackdown on any member that doesn't follow through on the DNM list. I used to work for a mailing list company and every single list got run against the DNM for collisions.

    7. Re:The big deal about spam... by daeg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they are unable to operate e-mail for customers based on their current price, they need to raise prices, lower operating costs, or stop providing e-mail altogether. I pay my ISP for a service and I expect to get it without them extorting the websites I chose to do business with for additional "fees" for e-mail delivery or "fees" for preferred content delivery speed (the whole Net Neutrality thing).

      If they aren't able to offer the services demanded at the market price, change or get out of the market and make room for someone who can.

    8. Re:The big deal about spam... by danpsmith · · Score: 2, Informative

      Spam isn't a bigger deal than junkmail YES, IT IS. It wastes YOUR ISP's hard-drive, it wastes YOUR time, and it wastes YOUR ISP's BANDWIDTH. In snail mail at least the junkmailers pay for the mail. With SPAM, they're using YOUR resources to do business. Not to mention promoting the use of botnets and viruses and spyware. They're disrupting the whole e-mail system, don't you get it? About 90% of e-mail I get is spam. That's 10-to-1 ratio. If you don't consider that a big deal, then you've gotten so close to garbage that you forgot how "clean" smells.

      Telemarketers call you on cell phones, and I would assume that they pay a phone bill. Same thing. You aren't going to prevent e-mail spam by even charging a nominal amount for e-mailing, you are just going to maybe lose the less profitable spammers. If people have to pay to annoyingly advertise now over existing mediums with established and real costs and still do it, do you really think you'll be able to prevent all spam? Obviously not, as is with other mediums. Bits are cheap, that's why there's more of it. So what?

      People talk about ISP costs, obviously they are still in business so I guess they must be covering costs. By charging ordinary customers to send e-mail you are essentially double-dipping them to "save" them from spam, something that most certainly will NOT happen anyway. You'll still get, maybe just a little less spam from "preferred" visa offerings and trips you've already won. We don't see this same crackdown on any other type of spamming, including fax spamming, which uses your own toner, etc, so why must we molest email in order to "fix" it?

      --
      Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
    9. Re:The big deal about spam... by futuresheep · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I get 3 expected items in the mail every month, along with items ordered an delivered. They're the only bills I have that don't have an electronic only option yet. Everything else I get is junk mail which has a hidden cost as well. The post office has to use more fuel to carry all the extra weight in their vehicles. I have to get it from the mail box, shred it, put it in a garbage bag, and have it picked up by the garbage man. The DMA companies didn't buy my shredder for me, they don't spend 15 minutes shredding junk every week, and they don't subsidize the cost of fuel for the garbage truck that stops at every house to pick up what most likely amounts to tons of extra garbage weight a year. They also don't care if some meth head stops by my mailbox, steals my junk mail, and uses one of the dozens of free credit card offers to steal my identity and start me down the road of a ruined credit rating. So the cost of junk mail is time, fuel, space, and security.

    10. Re:The big deal about spam... by B'Trey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Telemarketers call you on cell phones, and I would assume that they pay a phone bill.

      Uh, no, they don't. I've never received a telemarketer call on my cell phone and if I were receiving the calls, I'd add the number to the "Do Not Call" registry.

      You aren't going to prevent e-mail spam by even charging a nominal amount for e-mailing, you are just going to maybe lose the less profitable spammers.

      Not true. Spammers operate because of the enormous economies of scale that exist with email. You can send out literally millions of emails for practically nothing. A tiny return rate - say .001% is profitable. If it costs even a little bit to send spam, then such minute return rates will no longer be profitable. Mind you, I'm not in favor of charging for email. I agree with the thrust of your post that this is a bad idea.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    11. Re:The big deal about spam... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      many slashdotters dislike marketing or see it as a "waste". However without it we would have little idea what products were availible. Manufacturers who are unable to find customers (whether direct customers or people who would resell thier product) wouldn't be able to sell thier products and so wouldn't manufacture anything.

      I'm a systems/network admin by trade, but right now I'm a graphic artist, so if I thought advertising was a waste I'd have to kill myself (or quit my job.) I don't feel that way. It's the unsolicited advertisements that I object to, and the untargeted ones.

      Almost all of our advertising is pretty highly targeted (we're not the spray and pray types) so I feel pretty good about it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:The big deal about spam... by MBGMorden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but those filter ARE good because so many people make a "big deal" about spam, which was what the grandparent was questioning.

      Kinda like saying "Why should I go to work? I have food on my table and all my bills get paid. I'm not busting my ass anymore.". Stop the work and see how fast your rosy situation changes.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    13. Re:The big deal about spam... by geekoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "It wastes YOUR ISP's hard-drive..."
      which comes out of the fee they charge me.

      "it wastes YOUR time,"

      So does snail mail spam. A lot more of my time in fact.

      "and it wastes YOUR ISP's BANDWIDTH"
      That comes out of the cost for doing business, which the consumer pays for.

      Snail mail cost me my garbage bandwidth. Meaning I pay to have my trash picked up, and it takes room out of my trash can. Well, usually my recycle bin, but the same thing applies.

      Snail mail is far worse on the environment then Spam. it take physical recourses AND substantial more energy to get to it's destination.

      Since I pay 15 bucks a month for DSL, the cost of handling spam seems to be pretty minimal when spread out across a large customer base.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    14. Re:The big deal about spam... by phantomlord · · Score: 4, Informative

      The post office has to use more fuel to carry all the extra weight in their vehicles.

      The post office has to do the same route every day whether they deliver you one piece of mail or 10. Even if they don't have mail for you, they have mail for your neighbors so they have to travel down your road anyway. Driving the route is the biggest contributor of fuel expenses, junk mail just makes it slightly more inefficient. I normally get about 22 mpg on my truck. Towing a trailer around with 1000 pounds of weight in it makes me get about 21 mpg even on hilly routes.

      I have to get it from the mail box

      Do you check your mail daily? Does carrying a couple ounces of mail to your dwelling cause you so much wear and fuel that you can measure it?

      The DMA companies didn't buy my shredder for me, they don't spend 15 minutes shredding junk every week, and they don't subsidize the cost of fuel for the garbage truck that stops at every house to pick up what most likely amounts to tons of extra garbage weight a year.

      I don't own a shredder. I heat my house with wood (hey, my heat is carbon neutral and cheaper than oil/coal/gas/electric though it is offset by manual labor) and I save my junk mail to use as starter paper to get the kindling going. It saves me from having to buy paper or starter fluid to get my fires going. Also, even with an extended amount of time, good luck putting my mail back together to get sensitive info when it has all turned to a mishmash of ashes in the bottom of my wood stove. As for my garbage, again, it is the same as the post office. The majority of the fuel is spent just driving to my house. The weight of junk mail is a pittance compared to that. I throw away an average of 3 bags of garbage a week. If I threw away my junk mail, it would be a small fraction of that.

      They also don't care if some meth head stops by my mailbox, steals my junk mail, and uses one of the dozens of free credit card offers to steal my identity and start me down the road of a ruined credit rating.

      Opt out of prescreened credit offers
      Opt out of all DMA members mailing lists
      Opt out of all DMA members phone calling lists
      Join the federal do no call list

      These programs really work... smart DMA people don't want to sell to people who don't like them. It wastes their time and resources to annoy you. Since joining just the federal do not call list, my telemarketing has dropped to near zero (only exceptions being companies I've done business with, politicians and political surveys (yeah, I'm one of those people who gets 1-2 survey calls a month)).

      Spam is much, much more annoying to me than junk mail is. Telemarketing probably ranks higher than spam though since it is an immediate interruption in what I'm doing so someone can try to pitch something at me. Email I read at my leisure. It takes me a couple seconds to toss out my junk mail once a day since the envelopes are pretty obvious. I spend much more time making sure spamassassin is correctly classifying spam/ham, setting up whitelists and blacklists, etc than I do dealing with junk mail. Overaggressive filters means I could lose important emails if I don't scan through things carefully. I've never tossed away valid mail (though sometimes I will open a strange looking mail to make sure isn't something important).

      At the end of the day, I'm at least wasting the junk mailers money if they send me crap to my mailbox. Even with a bulk rate, they're limited to how much they can send out by the expense of printing it and putting a stamp on it. Spammers incur almost no cost to send out an unlimited amount of garbage. I get 100 spams a day averaging at least 30 megs a month. I have to spend time making sure my network doesn't turn into a bots, cleaning out friends machines which were turned into bots, etc.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    15. Re:The big deal about spam... by Mr.+No+Skills · · Score: 2, Informative

      A clarification:

      Junk Mail does not waste the Post Office's time. They make money on it. They actively promote the creation of it.

      http://www.usps.com/directmail/

      --
      Sleep is for the Weak
    16. Re:The big deal about spam... by kalirion · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do things like spamassassin never get false positives? When you register with a website and don't see the "confirmation" email in your inbox, you know to check the most recent entries in your junk folder and mark it non-spam. But what happens to legitimate emails which you are not expecting this very minute but which are identified as spam by your filter?

    17. Re:The big deal about spam... by MorderVonAllem · · Score: 2, Informative

      It does charge more to deliver legitimate mail (in general) since USPS spammers usually pay a bulk rate while you're stuck paying 41 cents a letter (I think that's how much it is now)

    18. Re:The big deal about spam... by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I'm against junk snail mail as well. Even though it doesn't cost me per se, it wastes my time, and unlike tv and web ads, I don't get anything in return for it."

      Unless you never send anything via post, you most certainly do get something out of it, at least in the US. The US Post Office is pretty much subsidized by spam. You may think 41c for 1st class mail is a lot, but it would probably be triple that if it had to bear the costs of providing reliable mail service to every legitimate postal address in the country.

    19. Re:The big deal about spam... by daeg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Fixing an arguably broken SMTP system with something like Goodmail isn't the way to go. It has been proposed in several forms to transition e-mail from "push" to "pull". When your computer sends and e-mail through mail.yourisp.com, mail.yourisp.com holds that e-mail and notifies recipient@domain.com "I'm holding a message for you from you@yourisp.com". It is then up to the configuration of domain.com whether the e-mail is downloaded immediately, ignored forever, or downloaded partially. This forces spammers to maintain servers. You can tie some sort of basic encryption/signature that makes each message take a small fraction of computing power to compute a key, probably some combination of sender address+receiver address+current time or something like that. This would force spammers to not only maintain active servers, but also dedicate expensive processing time to create each key individually. Once the abused machine is found, the data center or ISP can simply block mail pickups to that IP address, cutting out any additional spam that hadn't been picked up yet.

    20. Re:The big deal about spam... by jank1887 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And this is currently how it should be. If the spammer had to pick up a portion of your ISP costs based on the amount of spam they were sending, that would be fine. They're incurred business costs would be payed for out of their own pockets instead of being passed on to unwilling consumers, and the consumers would get a net benefit for the inconvenience. Unfortunately, the current situation enables the spammer to shift the majority of the costs of his advertising onto the consumer. If done 'illegitimately', nearly all costs are passed onto a 3rd party. Supporting the spam industry is now a significant portion of your ISP bill (ISP's should list this line item separately on the bill), it provides you no net benefit, and you have no way to remove yourself from the 'service'.

    21. Re:The big deal about spam... by phantomlord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they didn't deliver advertisements, they would only need to deliver mail once or twice a week. nobody uses regular mail for quick correspondences anymore. There is no need to deliver 6 days a week.

      Absolutely correct... now, convince the union which controls the employees of the nation's second largest employer that you're going to need to eliminate more than half of their jobs since you're going down to 1 day a week. You'll, of course, still need to staff and manage the actual post office, distribution/sorting centers and transport mail between centers/offices but you'll cut down from 5 deliverers to 1. You could also cut down the transport between offices but some bills still can't be paid over the internet so I think people would prefer that their mail actually moves. What is now a 3 day trip might take 3 weeks if we cut back interoffice transport. Nevermind Granny or poor people who can't afford computers; To hell with them for being luddites.

      Over time, times every person checking mail in the country, yeah, it does come to a lot. Which without advertisements would be less since you wouldn't need to get regular mail any more. see previous point.

      Ever stop to think that it is the junk mail which makes up a core foundation of the post office's income? I've gone from mailing out 9 bills a month to mailing out 2, so they're definitely getting less money from me. However, their infrastructure costs aren't going down any time soon (nor will they go down if the union has anything to say about it). You can let advertisers pay that cost or you can raise taxes on every individual to support an ad-free mail system that they're still going to retire. Me? I'd rather keep paying the $10 or so a year I pay right now than pay an additional chunk of money in taxation.

      Yeah, if you have nearby neighbors, the smoke will settle on their property until your chimney heats up. oh and don't forget of all the poisonous carcenigens you are putting in the air from the ink and paper processing materials.

      Yeah... because most of of my neighbors burn fuel oil... it is so much healthier for everyone. Not to mention people using coal and putting trace amounts radioactive material up in the air. How do you recommend heating a home in NY six months a year in a way that won't have any negative impact whatsoever? I use a handful of paper once every few days when I accidentally let the fire burn out. Ooooh, scary.

      That is completly false. While cheap, mass spammer do pay for the privilidge. Do you think the major providers don't know when someone sends 100K of emails...in fact you can pay them to be able to do that.

      Ever hear of a botnet? If you have 20,000 machines each sending 5 mails, its a lot harder to track down. The boxes most likely to be sending out 100k at a time are corporate machines which have been hijacked and generally, their providers don't care too much what they do with their T3/OC line since they're selling connectivity/bandwidth not user services. The business has to employ someone to maintain that server to make sure it stays secure and to notice when it is spewing out 100k mails at a time. There are expenses for everyone out there running a mail server (employees, hardware failure, processing expansion for filtering, disk expansion, etc). If you have a website with a poorly laid out form (pick a random PHP project), you can end up with that form allowing people to send out spam (and good luck if you're the "IT guy" in a small business running the site because you're the one who knows why the computer won't turn on when the monitor is unplugged). Sending spam is MASSIVELY cheaper in comparison to junk mail. "Want to email a million addresses? Sure, we can do that for you for $25." "Want to junk mail a million mailboxes? Sure, that'll be $130,000." The spammer bears almost none of the cost associated with their endeavor, it is all passed on to the recipients and intermediaries so there is no incentive to carefully target their adv

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    22. Re:The big deal about spam... by Afecks · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's nothing stopping a company from using bulk mail rates too. It's not the same. Which was my point with the analogies. They usually don't fit and only confuse the argument.

    23. Re:The big deal about spam... by catman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Get rid of the "almost" and you're doing fine.

      I, for one, sometimes get e-mail advertising that I do not report as spam, because it is very well targeted and the sender has good reason to believe that I'm interested in the product he's selling. But the spam (even filtered and labelled) that comes through my ISP is getting to be too much - currently I'm running a Postfix server at home and seriously thinking about getting a static IP. cbl and spamcop helps me block almost all spam at the server.

  2. "Nice email message ya got there ... by Bearpaw · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... it'd be a shame if somethin' happen to it. Know what I mean?"

  3. the real reason by sdnoob · · Score: 5, Informative

    why high-volume isp's are signing on to this scam....

    fta: At least half of the fees go to the service provider

    anything to make a buck. sheesh.

  4. ISP supported spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Goodmail is a service for spammers to bypass spam filters for a fee. It is plain to see. By particpating, ISPs that use Goodmail have in effect become spammers themselves. Such ISPs should be avoided like the plague.

  5. This isn't Russia, Danny. by hal2814 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "So he moves it to the recipient's "spam" folder, and then calls you up and says: pay me $1,000 to move it to the recipient's inbox, or they'll never see it.

    Does the ISP have the right to do that? If not, why not?"

    You don't have to use your ISP's email. Not everyone has a bevy of choices for their ISP but everyone on the Internet has plenty of e-mail options. An ISP has the right to do such a thing as far as I can tell but if they actually tried pulling a stunt like that, they'd see how quickly they can get people to jump ship on their email services. I wouldn't recommend tying your email into your ISP anyways. You don't always have the option to take your ISP-based email with you when you move or change ISPs.

    And that's not even taking into account that Goodmail is a complete sham. The only people using this will be spammers with money looking to get around your spam filter.

    1. Re:This isn't Russia, Danny. by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, once someone develops a service at a certain expectation, suddenly deviating from that can cause legal actions.

      In this case I am pretty sure a judge would frown on this type of extortion.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  6. Re:ridiculous premise. by HappySmileMan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The argument of only reaching a doctor or lawyer by email is an example of how important mail could be blocked, that example is made up and the author explained it, he then went to elaborate on how HE needs to send 50,000 people mail twice a week and explained it would cost him about $1000 to do that each month.

    But if you need a different example, what if you ran a large shop and ordered 10,000 chairs to sell, but then realised you made a mistake and only needed 8000... This would cost you a huge amount of money, and if the ISP had access to the email the blackmail could be huge, however it still needs to be paid to save thousands more dollars...

    That is, it would have to be paid if it wasn't illegal, but there are going to be people who pay quietly without looking up laws or consulting a lawyer.

  7. Whos mail is more precious by CryogenicKeen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What happens if you need to call 911 because of an emergency like you broke your leg or worse? While email isn't 911 it does seem to me that it more and more can and will be used when either the person is unable to use a phone or otherwise does not want to/can't reach the person any other way. The idea to pay a free email service extra to make SURE your mail gets to where it's going seems great but isn't this a silppery slope? Do we really want to start making extra paying people's mail a higher priority then others? "Oh im sorry sir that you missed your child's recital because the email notifying you about it couldn't be bothered to be fished out of the spam folder because X Y and Z clients already payed their "my mail is more important" stipend and we need to be priority to THERE mail." Are we just seeing the slow phase-out of freemail in the longrun?

    --
    I looked through a lot of quotes about life and they are all bullocks.
  8. It's a bit more than that. by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yep, you are correct about the spam issue.

    But the larger issue is whether your ISP can or should be filtering your email (or prioritizing it).

    I have no problem with INDIVIDUAL users signing up for such a service.

    But when ISP's start signing up, it breeds abuse.

  9. Anecdote ... by PhxBlue · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This reminds me of an anecdote ... a gentleman was talking to a young lady and asked her if she would have sex with him for a million dollars. After she thought about it for a moment, she said yes. Then he asked her if she would have sex with him for $50.

    "What do I look like, some kind of hooker?" she demanded.

    "We've already established that," he said. "Now we're just haggling over your price."

    Goodmail has established who the hookers are among the ISP community.

    --
    !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
  10. So use RSS, not e-mail. by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have a (verified opt-in) mailing list of about 50,000 people that I send mail to twice a week.

    Bulk distribution is what RSS feeds are for. If people really want your stuff, they'll subscribe to the feed. Then the recipient is in control. I'm not impressed by people who claim that people need to receive their newsletter / e-mail spam.

    1. Re:So use RSS, not e-mail. by SQL+Error · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or rather, use NNTP. That's what it's designed for. RSS feeds are a hack.

    2. Re:So use RSS, not e-mail. by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And the rest of us aren't impressed with those who feel everyone set up an RSS feed, regardless of their actual needs. Even as a geek, I just recently found RSS easy enough to deal with that I starting watching feeds. (Google's Reader app is nice and I can see it anywhere.)

      The majority of people on the internet don't even -know- what RSS is, but they know what email is, and when you say 'mailing list' they know what they're getting into.

      That's not even getting into securing the information. A mailing list only goes to who you send it to. An RSS feed is either unsecured, or a hassle.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    3. Re:So use RSS, not e-mail. by garcia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not impressed by people who claim that people need to receive their newsletter / e-mail spam.

      I'm not impressed by computer users who claim that other users should bow to their desired delivery medium. Let's offer a few examples:

      1. They use a mobile device that doesn't have RSS reader support (like me). However, they do have e-mail to the device.

      2. They are not technically savvy and haven't a clue what an RSS feed or reader is. I guarantee you that this is the majority of web readers.

      3. They are like me and find no use for RSS.

    4. Re:So use RSS, not e-mail. by rho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's a nice thing to say, but email is what people want. I can throw a rock and hit 20 people who regularly use email with confidence. I could probably drop a daisy-cutter bomb and not hit anybody who even knows what RSS is. Hell, I've even got a dingus that will send out an RSS feed over email. Electronic mail is still the killer app of the Internet. It has so many benefits people spend gobs of money and time trying to keep it working.

      The spam problem is a virus problem. Spam sent within the US comes from zombied machines. That's a problem the ISPs can fix by blocking outbound port 25 traffic except to the ISPs mail relay. Too much mail from one machine means it gets blocked. Spam from outside of the US is almost certainly from China and Korea. There's not much legitimate traffic going from China or Korea to the US, so mail blocks on Chinese/Korean IPs, whitelisting known legitimate IPs, solves 90% of that problem.

      The thing about spam is you don't have to completely eliminate it. You just have to make it less effective. It already has a low response rate. If you cut the delivery rate even by 75% you're making it even less fruitful. Eventually the purpose of spam will simply be to try to entice people to bogus Web sites in order to procure more zombied machines so the spammers can stay afloat. That's a recipe for eventual death.

      --
      Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
    5. Re:So use RSS, not e-mail. by bennetthaselton · · Score: 2, Insightful

      (I tried replying but Slashdot ate it. Spam filter maybe? Where do I pay to get around it...) The list I publish is for people who want new Circumventor sites to get around blocking software. As long as recipients can access Hotmail, Yahoo Mail, etc., they can use it, but if we distributed it via RSS, the censors would just block the RSS feed.

  11. Workable mail solution.. by mulvane · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is something I have setup and have had great success with. Aside from the spam filters I get that are obvious "P3NI5" and such in the text, I have setup an auto response to anyone not whitelisted. Basically, if you are someone not on my white list and you send me a mail, it goes into a holding queue and sits for 5 days (like a spam folder but different in my setup). Any mail that goes here gets sent a auto-reply that basically ask them to send me another email with a confirmation string or the option to go to a web form and enter the email address they sent it from. This will grey-list the email and allow one from that sender through. From that point, I can see its grey-listed and choose to white list or remove from all list or blacklist. If I remove it, they have to repeat the process to get it through again.

    1. Re:Workable mail solution.. by grotgrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is not workable. In fact it is the single most selfish thing you can do.

      You have no way of knowing if the message you respond to is spam or not. If it is spam then you respond to a forged email address which basically means you are spamming an innocent other person. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge-response_sp am_filtering

      I like many other admins consider these auto-responses spam and report them. Ultimately you will find yourself on email blacklists.

  12. Re:What happens? by trolltalk.com · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is great for spammers. Target their emails better, and htey KNOW that they're going to be seen, and not just silently dumped.

    They should be forced by truth-in-advertising laws to call it SPAM-mail.

    Better yet, is there any way a user can set it up so that all GoodMail is automatically marked as SPAM? Or better yet, sent back to the sender with a:

    This is the BogoMaster mail daemon at yousuck.com

    Your message is undeliverable. Here is the output:

    ***** MESSAGE REJECTED BY SPAM FILTER *****

    Your message has not been delivered because it has been marked as SPAM by our filters. Reason:
    HEADER-GOODMAIL Spam Index: 100%

    That ought to get people to drop GoodMail.

  13. Silly -- Don't use filters! by redelm · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The Goodmail premise is filtering. All filters catch false positives. I'm far more worried about losing mail! that being subjected to spam. So I turn all filtering off. So should anyone with high-value mail. I know a local architectural firm did after a purchase order was false-positived.

    As for the strawman, you just sue your professional and their ISP. I have no doubt the ISP would get hit for actual, consequential and punative damages.

    On another level, email should not be used for high-value communications without backup/acknowledgement. The internet just is _not_ reliable. Email is far less reliable than people suppose.

  14. Free market might work... by kebes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't think the free market can solve all the world's problems, but in this case it does have a fair shot.

    The dilemma presented in the writeup is that you can't get messages through to someone (your doctor, mailing list recipients, whoever) because their ISP is extorting you. The author then argues that the free market cannot respond because it is the recipient being screwed (by charging others for a service that the recipient has already paid for), but the recipient is unaware of this abuse because they can't receive the messages.

    But, that last part is rather unlikely. You will still be able to contact the recipient elsehow: either by paying the silly fee at least once, or by phoning them, or using a recipient email address not linked to the ISP, or by posting something on a web-site.

    Take the example of the mailing list. The author worries about the cost of sending mails to thousands of people. So, basically, your mailing-list signup could say something like "We won't send email to people on ISP X" or "We cannot guarantee delivery to ISP X... click here to find out more." If the user really wanted to sign-up to that mailing list, then they will be annoyed by this. Ultimately end-users will find out about what their ISPs are doing, and switch ISPs (or at least switch email providers).

    So the recipients will be empowered to change their email provider. And I'm fairly certain this whole scheme will fail for precisely that reason. The end users (senders or receivers) don't get much of benefit from the service--certainly not a benefit commensurate to the cost. So they will not pay the fees, and the scheme will fail. (Notice that some people have called for nominal 'email costs' many times to prevent spam... such proposals never take off mainly because the users of email don't want that hassle or cost.)

    I think it will be possible to vote with our wallets, and watch this little scheme die a painful death.

  15. Re:ridiculous premise. by AxemRed · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We have employees at our company who use email as a primary communications medium. Most of these employees are off-site and travel more time than not, and when clients call in and ask for them, we recommend that the client emails them.

  16. AoL, i've dealt with them before... by LullySing · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... and they are complete utter idiots/wankers. This does not even surprise me at all coming from them. While i am sure there exists some people with clue somewhere, someplace within the thing, most of the people manning the phones are ( as per past experience, numerous comments and dealing of associates, other occasions where i've kibbitzed with people having had to deal with them) :

    - Insuficciently trained to deal with admins ( where a postmaster/mail line should)
    - Don't have enough knowledge about how email works oin the network
    - Limited network training
    - No power to do shit all to REALLY help you
    - Extremely bullshitty. they don't know what they're talking about, they'll just go with whatever.

    This is just like their bullshit "mail report cards" they started sending back in the days. It's condescending, badly implemented ( and hence) mostly useless. ( included original rant on that lower behind supersnip). I think the whole " pay for delivery" is a dangerous slope to get onto for networked mail. At least the Sender Policy Framework makes more sense.

    Shit man, it's times like these I don't miss working abuse@some.isp

    ==(supersnip)==

    ---(start idiotic message from AOL)---
    Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:04:13 -0400 (EDT)
    From: postmaster@aol.com
    Subject: AOL email concerns for isp-where-i-work-abuse.net
    To: abuse@isp-where-i-work-abuse.net
    X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39

    Dear isp-where-i-work-abuse.net,
    You are receiving this message via our automated "Report Card" process (which helps analyze AOL's Internet inbound mail) because our available data indicate that isp-where-i-work-abuse has risen above the acceptable threshold for complaints:

    Total number of AOL member complaints: 186

    AOL takes proactive steps to contact owners of mail servers whose e-mail transmissions are impairing the functioning of AOL's proprietary e-mail system, or causing significant levels of AOL customer complaints.

    AOL requests that you take immediate steps to resolve the issues identified in this AOL Report Card. In the absence of a satisfactory resolution, AOL reserves the right to take measures to protect its email network and its member goodwill from any possible damage. These measures may include declining to accept e-mail transmissions from isp-where-i-work-abuse.net through AOL's proprietary e-mail network.

    AOL strives to provide the best online experience possible for our members, and we pride ourselves on being intensely focused on consumers and their needs. Email is a core feature of the AOL service, and the proper functioning of AOL's e-mail system is vital to our members' goodwill.

    Please review AOL's e-mail policies and guidelines, as well as other technical details concerning e-mail on the AOL network, at http://postmaster.info.aol.com/
    --(end message)--

    Ooohhh, AOL's proprietary e-mail network. No information that is gonna be any use in determining WHY people are complaining at all. I guess this should not be a surprise, considering this crap is coming in from AOL! So i do the next available thing , i go to the website. Result : No information that is gonna be any use in determining WHY people are complaining at all. But there's a phone number.

    Result of calling 1-888-212-5537:
    *dials phone*
    "The holding time for the next available consultant will be more than ten minutes." ...( silence )
    "Thank you for calling America online ..."
    *spits water all over desk, workdesk and papers*
    (musak)
    (an hour later)
    "Hello, this is postmaster helpdesk, can i help you?" ...And here i am explaining to the bloke on the phone the situation, namely that we are getting "Report cards" without any kind of information as to why people are complaining, with no headers or anything at all to help us.
    REP:"oh, that's because you don't currently have a feedback loop with us."
    ME : "huh? but we received your repor

    --
    Peace and happyness to you, by LullySing ;)
  17. Re:ridiculous premise. by kebes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The argument here is predicated on the ridiculous premise that can only reach you need to reach your Doctor or Lawyer urgently (not so bad so far), but you can only do so though email.
    No, that was just an example. It was an exaggerated example to "get your attention," but the author makes it rather more concrete when he describes how mailing-list operators will have to spend $1000 per notice to reach their recipients. And although you can phone up your doctor, you can't phone up all the mailing-list recipients.

    Email isn't an urgent communications medium.
    Why not? Or rather... why shouldn't it be? I know lots of people who use it for time-sensitive communications (maybe not life-and-death, but certainly for important issues where money is involved). Sometimes the only contact details you have are email. You can phone someone to talk about something, but to send that urgent electronic document, what are you going to do? Email is useful for lots of things, when it works. This scheme on the part of the ISPs basically makes email less reliable and less functional. (In addition to all your previous worries, now you have to think about whether the recipient ISP is using Goodmail?) Why should we be favor of something that makes it less useful, rather than pushing email towards being more robust and truly suitable for emergency-communication ... ?
  18. What's missing from e-mail... by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...is a way for someone you've opted in to, to prove it. If I wanted to subscribe to a mailing list, I shouldn't send a mail to listmaster@foo.com. I should send an email to mailfilter@myisp.com with the title "whitelist listmaster@foo.com" which would create a keypair, send the private key to listmaster@foo.com and store the public key in a database on the mail server. Then when foo.com wants to send me an email, they sign it with that key, my mail server verifies it and if it's good, it bypasses the SPAM filter.

    Obviously I should be able to do a few other things like "blacklist listmaster@foo.com" which would basicly be an unsubscribe which the server would record, then let the mailing list know the next time they try to deliver mail. Same thing if that token is somehow compromised (and/or shared with partners) which start sending you SPAM. That gives pretty much all the benefits of Goodmail, of course without making money for anyone so I guess it won't happen...

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  19. Paper spam by benhocking · · Score: 3, Informative

    This seems like an excellent place to remind people that they can opt out of much of that "paper spam". In addition to helping the environment, you're also helping to protect yourself from one vector of identity theft.

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
    1. Re:Paper spam by Mr.+No+Skills · · Score: 2, Informative

      Good reminder, it also reminds me that I don't think this works well. I get daily credit card offers from organizations I have no relationship with even though I'm on this list. The telemarketing one seems to work well, however. The difference might be explained in the financial penalties for junk phone calls, which I don't think exist for junk mail.

      Another off-topic comment - the post office takes offense to the term "junk mail", and actively encourages its creation.

      --
      Sleep is for the Weak
    2. Re:Paper spam by mikael · · Score: 3, Funny

      The UK's Daily Mail ran a campaign on how to stop junk snail mail.

      The Post Office responded by informing residents that if they took up this scheme, they
      risked losing delivery of official government letters such as bills, council tax and passports.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  20. Re:You're a spammer by dualityshift · · Score: 2, Informative

    spam
    n. Unsolicited e-mail, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups; junk e-mail.

    tr.v. spammed, spamming, spams

    1. To send unsolicited e-mail to.
    2. To send (a message) indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups.
    From http://www.dictionary.com/

    If people opt-in, it's not spam. These 50,000 members asked to be on the list for hs newsletter.

    If he was trying to sell those 50,000 members viagra, or another unreated product, yes, he would be a spammer.

    Please understand and comprehend the meanings of words before you speak again.

  21. Re:ridiculous premise. by walt-sjc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Email isn't an urgent communications medium
    Why not? Or rather... why shouldn't it be? SMTP is a batch "best effort" protocol. Despite the fact that lots of people pretend it's realtime, it's not. You can also request a return-receipt, but the fact is that the far end client doesn't have to honor your request.

    If you want a messaging protocol with assured fast delivery, it's not and won't be SMTP due to the design of SMTP.
  22. Re:What's so new about this? by Taevin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Cute, but it's not the same thing as the submitter is commenting about. If you're on the phone with someone who is being difficult (something I'm sure we've all had to deal with), there really is little you can do besides ask to speak with their superior and hope they comply. There is nothing you can do but call back later, hoping to get someone else or to talk with the receptionist's boss and report the treatment you received.

    If you stop your thought process there, I can see how you might confuse the two examples as being the same. In both cases, there is little you can do to get your message through immediately (other than pay the price). However, in the receptionist example, I already pointed out the solution: call back later when the asshole receptionist is not there or report him/her, likely getting them fired so you never have to deal with them again. Any future receptionist is unlikely to attempt the same thing.

    That's really the heart of the matter: getting a receptionist like the one you describe is a random, chaotic occurrence. Being forced to pay money for every email you send through an ISP is an institutionalized occurrence; it will happen every single time you attempt to communicate with the recipient over that medium. The reason that is a bigger issue than the receptionist, while the immediate effect is the same, is that it is much harder to remedy an institutionalized behavior. The receptionist can be fired and all future communications to that office are no longer burdened with payola. You can call the ISP and complain about the fact that your message is not getting through, but all you'll receive in reply is a canned message explaining about the burden of providing secure communications for their customers that they have so selflessly taken upon themselves and likely insinuating that you may be a spammer because you are unwilling to pay the fee. Alternatively you can call the doctor/lawyer and request they change their service provider because of the situation you experienced. They may even sympathize with you and want to rectify the situation, but simply may not be able to. Switching providers could be a significant expense in time, expertise, and fees, that they may be unwilling or unable to spend. In addition it may be altogether impossible given the limited availability of choice in ISPs (i.e. many places only have the possibility of service from one or two major providers - the ones likely to be using Goodmail).

    Like it or not, ISPs institutionalizing a payola scheme is not a trivial matter. It has the potential to seriously hinder the way people use the Internet and has more sinister implications as well - if you seriously believe that they will keep the cost at some fraction of a cent and never increase it, well I can only hope you're one of the few who has the wool over their eyes.

  23. Hacking goodmail by sunderland56 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How long will it take for spammers to add a fake Goodmail header to all of the email they send?

  24. One disagreement by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Remember that Goodmail isn't charging senders to get their mail delivered. The charge is to bypass the normal processing that the receiving ISP does to all e-mail and deliver directly into the recipient's inbox. If you don't pay Goodmail to get your mail certified then it still gets delivered, it just gets handled as normal everyday mail. Now if the receiving ISP starts dumping everything not flagged by Goodmail into the spam folder automatically that'll be another matter, but my problem there would be with the ISP and not Goodmail (unless Goodmail was telling the ISP to do this, but they aren't). That problem is one I'd have to take up with the recipient, though, since I'm not a customer of their ISP. But as long as it's the receiving ISP's choice how to handle Goodmail-marked mail, Goodmail and senders can do whatever they please as far as I'm concerned.

    For myself, I'm a firm supporter of the ISP's right to filter incoming e-mail however they want. I like the fact that my ISP applies some pretty effective spam filters. I also like the fact that they're unlikely to bypass that filtering just because of a Goodmail signature on messages. The only thing I demand from an ISP is that they make it clear to customers what sort of filtering they do, so customers can decide whether they agree with it or not.

  25. so now spammers get to pay to send their spam? by josepha48 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If their spam will be guaranteed to be delivered, and they choose to pay for it, what good is a spam filter on a server for?

    --

    Only 'flamers' flame!
    Does slashdot hate my posts?

  26. Not broken by Infonaut · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How can the parent of this, and its parent both be modded to +5 Insightful, when they are opposed? I would think one is insightful and the other is not.

    I always thought the idea of the moderation system was to push trolling down to the bottom and encourage an interesting exchange of ideas. You seem to be implying that there can only be one insightful way to comment on a subject. In any debate, proponents of each side might have valid and insightful points to make. True discussion of ideas shouldn't lead to binary outcomes.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  27. Here's the Thing, You're Not the Customer by jratcliffe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If your doctor wants to use an ISP that restricts his email, that's his business. You can certainly go to another doctor, but you aren't his ISP's customer (he is), so if he's happy with an ISP that charges people to send him mail, that's his call, not yours. If the ISP wanted to only accept mail from domains that start with Q, then it could do so - your doctor might have grounds to complain, especially if they didn't inform him of it, but you certainly don't - his service, his payment, his call.

  28. Re:This is another net neutrality issue by bigpat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What are you getting for the 1/4 cent per email, assuming your email is not spam? An assurance that Goodmail will not misclassify it as spam? Yes, this is definately a net neutrality issue, but I think the whole point of this is for businesses to pay for a way for unsolicited emails to get through... meaning spam. The receiver would likely already be able to "whitelist" other senders to ensure they get through.

    Goodmail is in essence creating a new way for "legitimate businesses" like coke, nike or mortgage lenders to spam people. Let's not be confused here, these are bulk email rates not for individual to individual. Businesses are really desperate for ways to reach people with their marketing, and sending unsolicited email gets too much backlash and negative attention. Many companies get big money from other companies wanting to reach customers who have opted into their mailing lists, the ISPs and email providers want a piece of that action.

    This isn't in any way meant to help email subscribers or recipients reduce junk email, it is meant to increase junk email.

  29. wtf? by garbletext · · Score: 2, Funny

    "magical clicky clicker?" Sounds like a certain commander took the brown acid.

  30. Re:ridiculous premise. by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Insightful


    The only people who know and understand how unreliable it is as a service are the people administering it, not the majority of the end user population.

    I actually think most people DO know it's unreliable. Who hasn't had the experience of "I sent you an email about subject X, did you get it?" and received NO as a reply? Anyone that thinks email is reliable isn't really paying attention.

    --
    AccountKiller
  31. Re:Marketing is worse than a waste by dave562 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Preach on brother man! =) If anyone reading this is interested in the subject of marketting and how to recognize the ploys, I highly recommend "Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert B. Cialdini.