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Intelligent Design Ruled "Not Science"

blane.bramble writes "The Register is reporting that the UK government has stated there is no place in the science curriculum for Intelligent Design and that it can not be taught as science. 'The Government is aware that a number of concerns have been raised in the media and elsewhere as to whether creationism and intelligent design have a place in science lessons. The Government is clear that creationism and intelligent design are not part of the science National Curriculum programs of study and should not be taught as science.'"

29 of 1,497 comments (clear)

  1. Hah. by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not really religion either.

    God demands faith. God does not provide proof, because proof kills faith. If you see something that you think is proof of God's existence, you're wrong. He's ineffable. That means you can't effing figure him out.

    The arrogance of the goddamn literal read types is just astounding....Anyone else would look at evolution and go, "Damn! That God guy is hella fricking smart! Look at this crap! It's a system for self-improvement built into self-replicating creatures! It's awesome!" but a literal-read weenie will look at it and say, "Don't say nuthin about that in da bible. You must be wrong."

    The worst thing that can be said about the literal read types, is that they have nothing to look up to. They know all there is to know about god and everything. So very very sad.

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    1. Re:Hah. by Dann25 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Paraphrasing another article.... its amazing how people that want to take everything on faith become experts on the scientific method when they want you to prove evolution

    2. Re:Hah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly! How many times has some creationist offered criticism of some experiment I show them. The criticism is sometimes very well founded, and I agree with it. Then in the next breath, they say they believe the Bible is the only truth. Where did the useful skepticism go??

    3. Re:Hah. by lawpoop · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's not really religion either.

      God demands faith. God does not provide proof, because proof kills faith. If you see something that you think is proof of God's existence, you're wrong. He's ineffable. That means you can't effing figure him out. There are some religions that don't have a big faith component. A lot of types of Hindudism and Buddhism, for examples. They claim that their traditions are 'sciences' ( and they made this claim well before modern western science came on the scene ), meaning serious, systematic studies. In this case they are studying the experience of consciousness, from the subjective point of view of the practitioner.

      In other words, you don't need faith, they claim -- or rather, they don't even mention it at all. Just sit and meditate seriously for long enough, and you will have a direct experience of the divine. There's a famous maxim from one of the Zen masters, "If you see a Buddha on your path to enlightenment, kill it!"

      While it's true that they would say you can't figure God out, either, they might claim that you can 'experience' 'Him'.
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    4. Re:Hah. by plunge · · Score: 5, Informative

      "And even he recognized, for example (to use a beaten-to death example, at that!), that the eye was very complex and his theory did not account for it at that time."

      Why do critics constantly bring this up, when all it does is display their own ignorance about Darwin? Darwin noted the complexity of the eye and how it SEEMED to refute his ideas, and THEN he DID go on to show how his theory could not only account for it, but that the remnants of many of the necessary transitional stages existed in existent life. Right or wrong, he did NOT think it was "too complex for his theory at the time."

      That people think so and claim so is a telltale sign that they've only ever read the creationist quote mine, where they quote Darwin saying that the eye seems confoundingly complex... but then fail to continue the quote or note that he RIGHT AFTERWARDS discusses why theis perception is mistaken.

    5. Re:Hah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You find 4 to be the most ludicrous, so something had to create the universe. Which leads us to try to answer who created god.

      Assuming one of the following to be true, pick the most ludicrous:
      1. Man created God
      2. Unicorns created God
      3. Santa Clause created God
      4. Nobody created God

      Since we have already determined it's ludicrous to believe that something really complex can't just exist, I am going to go out on a limb and say that number 4 is the most ludicrous answer. What I don't get is how can a person who believes the universe is too complex to just exist will postulate a being so complex that he can hold the entire knowledge to create the universe in his head and cause it's creation.

    6. Re:Hah. by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Basically, once you stop striving for something higher than yourself, you become no better than an animal.

      We are no better than animals because we are animals. If that conflicts with your ideals, you should get some more realistic ideals.

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    7. Re:Hah. by pnewhook · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I had religion (required) in public school. It was great. But they didn't preach any one religion. They showed how all the religions of the world came about, their origins and similarities and differences in their belief systems. Then we had guest speakers, one each from the major local religions that came in to talk about and answer questions of their beliefs and customs.

      I firmly believe that type of religion in schools should be mandatory. It would certainly remove a lot of the predjudices and stereotyping that goes on simply due to fear and lack of understanding.

      --
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    8. Re:Hah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ya know, the eyeball isn't all that great. First, we only have two of them. And because of their positioning, the majority of our surroundings are rendered into a huge blind spot. Squids got it right. Does god love squids more than us? And why can we only see a small portion of the light spectrum? Or Infrared rays? Gamma? Ultraviolet? General radiation?

      While we're at it, why do I drink, breath, talk and eat out of the same hole? Dolphins have more options than we do. Great move God. Are you TRYING to make me choke and die on my Hot Pocket?.

      And what the hell is up with our genitals? That's like putting a theme park in the middle of sewage treatment plant.

  2. How about in the US? by oskay · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Will someone in the US government please do the same?

    1. Re:How about in the US? by Hungus · · Score: 5, Informative
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    2. Re:How about in the US? by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nothing more perverts the issue than those that try to make the battle against pseudoscience into a "rights" issue. I don't hear too many people complaining because high school history classes don't teach the "controversy" of whether the Holocaust happened or not, and yet all the Creationists and IDers bemoan the supposed censorship of their pseudoscientific claptrap not being taught in science classrooms, despite the fact that neither Creationism or ID (and ID is, after all, nothing more then Creationism with the word "God" removed in an attempt to fool Supreme Court justices) are recognized as science by the overwhelming majority of scientists inside and outside the US.

      People are perfectly free to talk about ID, publish letters in the newspaper, buy spots on TV, stand on the proverbial soapbox and preach it. There is no infringement of freedom, save that all those Evangelicals and the like would like special dispensation so that they could teach their own religious beliefs openly or in a pathetically thinly-veiled form like ID.

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    3. Re:How about in the US? by Zibblsnrt · · Score: 5, Funny

      Intelligent design isn't free thinking, it's free of it.

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      "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
    4. Re:How about in the US? by an.echte.trilingue · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "only 14 percent believe humans evolved without divine involvement."

      You do of course realize that one can both believe that the theory of evolution is 100% correct and also believe that God created this process? I am not saying that we should teach that God/god/goddess/gods/goddesses directed evolution, just that the numbers you present are framed. After all, only atheists believe that humans evolved with no divine involvement at any juncture. I would really like to know which opinion polls the article refers to and how they were conducted, because I don't believe that these statistics reflect what Americans actually think.

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  3. That's good. by cromar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't believe it is such an issue in the USA. People don't seem to even understand the definition of science. While I won't diminish the importance of religion or spirituality in life, science is based on reason and logic and is therefore a very practical and useful way to understand the natural world.

    Personally, I don't see any conflict between the world being created by some God, even in 7 days, and its being formed over billions of years by natural processes. One is a faith based way of experiencing the world, the other is a sensory based, practical, and logical way. They are both useful.

    What isn't useful is to deny children understanding of what, very practically and falsifiably, is the way our reality works.

    1. Re:That's good. by clickety6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Would you rather live in a magical world full of fairies or dry reality?

      Dry reality? You obviously don't live in the same world as me because there are more incredible and amazing things in this universe than I could ever fully explore in a single lifetime. I don't need to add imaginary fairies and hobgoblins to the mix. Just read a book about cosmology, or quantum physics or the human mind or zoology or... you don't need to start inventing fairies and easter bunnies to live in a magical world -we're already in one!

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  4. Whew! by oneandoneis2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Thank God for that!

    No, wait...

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  5. Re:Yeah, but ... by Hes+Nikke · · Score: 5, Funny

    Isn't evolution *also* pretty much just a theory at this point, like Intelligent Design? Isn't astronomy *also* pretty much just a theory at this point, like astrology?

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  6. Re:Yeah, but ... by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Informative

    Isn't evolution *also* pretty much just a theory at this point, like Intelligent Design?
    When one conflates two different usages of the word "theory", one can come up with idiotic statements like this one. The common vernacular meaning of theory is pretty much "any ol' idea I can think up". The scientific formulation is significantly more rigorous, so that ID and evolution, while in the common vernacular, are both theories, when it comes to the scientific notion of a theory, no, they are not equivalent.
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  7. Just Science by Wellington+Grey · · Score: 5, Informative

    While this is indeed a win, the watering down of the sciences in the UK is horrifying. I've written an article about the physics exams to try and bring some attention to this topic. On the biology side, I was shocked by the most recent GCSE paper on which the last question described an experiment on lab animals and the effect exposure of a hormone had on them. The students where then asked: ''How does this experiment contradict the theory of evolution.'' Also they are asked questions like ''Who would oppose contraception'' and they get a mark for writing ''Certain religious groups.'' It's really sad.

  8. If there is no intelligent designer... by fm6 · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... how do you explain the fact that your finger is exactly the right diameter for sticking up your nose?

  9. Re:When they can explain... by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even worse, you enter a logic trap when you insist that things require a Prime Mover. If the universe requires a Prime Mover, then the logical extension to that is that the Prime Mover also does, and you enter an infinite regression of Prime Movers. The standard answer by those who insist on causality all the way down is that their Prime Mover is exempt. At that point, an application of Occam's Razor states that unnecessary entities should be removed, and so if the alleged Prime Mover requires no lower-level Prime Mover, then why can't the universe exist without the need of a Prime Mover.

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  10. In other news... by FuckTheModerators · · Score: 5, Funny

    Fire ruled "Not cold."

  11. Flying Spaghetti Monster by pauljuno · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not going to be happy to hear about this!

  12. Re:As a Christian... by CaptainCaustic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Claiming that you have an opinion regarding Evolution is like saying you have an opinion on Gravity.
    Doesn't matter if you don't like the idea or not, you can't get away from the fact they exist.

  13. Re:government defined science by wizardforce · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Many of the advancements to science can be considered outside of what is considered "science" at the time. An attempt to limit scholarly inquiry by excluding it from scientific discussion will only discourage diversity in the scientific community.
    that is dead wrong, the great leaps forward were strictly through the scientific method which is about as far away from being outside science as you can get. Intelligent design is as you say "excluded" because it explains nothing, predicts nothing and does not adhere to any logical methodology. If ID wants to be scientific they need to provide real evidence, not just what the Bible says. We want concrete testible predictions and an actual theory that extends what is known not just a God of the gaps ideology.

    ID is unique (I'm not talking about young earth crap) because it really is not straight philosophy as it has too many ties to empirical data, it shouldn't be religion because (at least the reasonable arguments) don't actually argue for a "God,"
    Intelligent design is nothing more than a philosophy, it makes no predictions and explains nothing outside of a purposefully un-named designer [after Dover it was well understood that God was the implied designer] It isn't based on solid empirical evidence but mere misunderstandings and ideology.

    I don't think it is fair to any argument to preclude it being reasonable based on the fact that it doesn't really fit into current frameworks that have been set up.
    if you are referring to fairness in the context of giving equal time to each side it is entirely irrelevant. The side that has the most well estabolished evidence and predictive power wins. The scientific community is not interested in being dragged into an ancient ideological pissing contest. I don't mean to start a flame or anything here, I am just sick of religion pretending to be science when it is nothing of the sort.
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  14. Re:The cardinal sin of "I don't know." by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The creator of the Universe caring about what happens to us is like us caring about what happens to some Ant hill somewhere.

    Without detracting from the rest of your argument, this part needs work. We're limited beings, complex machines made of crude matter. The Yahoweh mythology is about an infinite being.

    Do you have absolutely no interest in what the ants are doing inside their ant hill? I think it might be neat to watch them. But I certainly don't have the resources to do so frequently, widely, or intently, so I elect not to care about them.

    Those constraints don't apply to the supreme being worshiped by the tribes of Abraham, ergo it would be surprising if he didn't pay attention to everything. And play Ski-ball at the same time.

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  15. Re:Cheap Smear by Hatta · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is not an example of actual evolution - there was no change to the gene pool. This is, however, like the industrial era moths, an excellent example of natural selection.

    Evolution is any change in the relative frequencies of alleles in the gene pool. Natural selection is the process which drives that change.

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  16. Re:ID by bentcd · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why is it not a scientific theory? Because it isn't disprovable. This is a very simple, formal test that any theory must pass in order to be considered a scientific theory.

    To quote wikipedia on the matter:
    Signatory Dr. Steve Brill of Rutgers University has stated, "To be called a scientific theory, Intelligent Design must be at the very least, disprovable. Since there is no way for Intelligent Design to be disproved, it fails the simplest test of scientific theory."

    Now, ID can still be a theory, it just can't be a scientific one.
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