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Deathbed Confession Says Aliens Were at Roswell
xnuandax writes "The army's explanation of weather balloons in the Roswell, New Mexico incident 60 years ago has been dealt a serious public relations blow. Late Army Lt. Walter Haut had signed a sealed affidavit prior to his death last year asserting that he had witnessed the wreckage of an egg-shaped craft and its extraterrestrial crew while working at the Roswell Army Air Field. An article at News.com.au reviews how Haut had worked as public relations officer for the Roswell base and was involved in the original weather balloon explanation of events at the time. This recent evidence would seem to confirm speculation that egg-shaped saucers are notoriously difficult to fly safely at low altitude."
As much as I want to believe aliens are among us, it just doesn't make sense that a civilization advanced enough to cross interstellar space would crash in New Mexico. And the chances of aliens being humanoid in appearance are close to zero.
A-Bomb
It is not like this affidavit is going to change the world or anything. There is absolutely no proof. It just sells newspapers and adds fire to crackpot theories. Even if there was extraterrestrial life, I would not want to know about, or even let any of the crazy people in this world know about it. The reaction would not be good. Humanity is not ready yet.
He probably died laughing behind his teethes.
I want to believe.....
That being said... the U.S. government is remarkably inept at keeping secrets much less orchestrating a cover up of this size.
Same is true of most conspiracy theories.
At this point, unless his affidavit leads to compelling and PUBLIC evidence, it doesn't matter whether it was a deathbed joke or and earnest confession. It will come to nothing more than a Discovery Channel episode.
Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
This was posted on digg, and as someone pointed out, Haut also ran a UFO museum. So .. yeah .. no ulterior motives ..
.. who knows. It just a bit odd. Other military people have come forward, including a high ranking general (who released a book). The general claimed all our current technology came from UFOs. Such as the night-vision goggles. This is a fairly outrageous claim even for someone with a rudimentary understanding of electronics.
A simple google search gives one of many such links:
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tw/07-20-95/cover.htm
Not to say that's the only reason he did that
It's not that I think aliens are impossible. I just am highly suspicious that they'd sneak about so much. Or that our government could keep anything a secret for so long. And crackpots coming out with books on UFOs does not count as the leaks.
Dying Man Has Perverse Sense of Humor
I disagree, I think there are significant chances they would be somewhat humanoid if they existed. If they move around on land, they most likely need legs to do that. They might have more, but two is the minimum so they might have two. To make tools they need manipulative parts, and they could end up with two there. They would work better if they're up off the ground and a geared more towards fine control rather than being robust enough to walk on. Biology and evolution seem to favor bilateral symmetry, so they would probably have even numbers of limbs at least.
Also, sensory organs would usually work best when they're high up off the ground and able to turn in different directions, so I wouldn't be suprised if they had something resembling a head.
why the affadavit, which has been "released", is not printed in any of the articles?
The most recent "vast government conspiracy" has to do with GWB and friends hijacking the US Constitution, lying to the world to lead the US into war with Iraq, providing bid-free billion-dollar contracts to close friends, and declaring the Vice-Presidency is outside the law.
I mean, who could believe *that*?
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
That thing flying over your head is not a UFO.
"I disagree, I think there are significant chances they would be somewhat humanoid if they existed."
But according to evolutionist, evolution is millions upon millions of decisions over "millions of years". That fact alone means that you will have something that's completely different. Some environments may be earth-like NOW! But that doesn't mean it has been so over those "millions of years". Plus environments are complex things, especially over "millions of years" of interaction. In other words the odds over "millions of years" are against it, even if the laws of physics over "millions of years" are the same everywhere.
The whole problem, in my mind, with the Roswell "conspiracy", is the part that has a flight of P-51 Mustangs shooting down a spacecraft capable of travelling at intersteller speeds. As good as the P-51 was back in its day, it would be almost miraculous for one of these planes to shoot down a modern jet aircraft such as the F-22 or the EF-2000. Obviously, the technology required for manned interstellar space flight is easily 50 - 100 years beyond what we have now, and so, the claim seems utterly foolish. In any case, if an interstellar ship could reach the earth once, why wouldn't they have sent a rescue party looking for their fallen comrades?
This is my sig.
Two possible scenarios come to mind:
I don't see how this extra piece of information affects the likelihood that he believes his claims.
The closest star is some 4 light years away, the next one is about 10 or 12, I am not sure. Then it goes up. Lets say they are relatively on our doorstep on a star less than 50 light years away, we still have another 3 years before they will learn their aircraft was shot and about 53 years to get the war declaration message, providing we are able to receive it. And I'd say that around 70 to 100 years before their fleet shows up :)
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Suffice it to say that a Lieutenant is not exactly going to be high on the "need to know" list.
This is a hoax.. no aliens at Roswell..
So for such a claim to NOT be outrageous, you'd have to also claim a vast conspiracy of scientists all over the world through the decades, sitting on most of their findings while publishing just enough to give an incremental step for the next breakthroughs. Or you'd need the aliens to be directing this, handing out tiny little tidbits of information to the scientists, and either swearing them to secrecy or using some sort of mind control on them. So yes, it is quite outrageous.
On the other hand, if next week some scientist produced working plans for a fusion generator that used a grand unified theory totally different than any proposed, now THAT would be what it would take to not be an outrageous claim of getting outside help.
Guys, he was a PR officer! He and others filling his job receive scripts to read and is told what to say and puts a happy face on everything. Why does everyone think that just because he was there that he had security clearance to see the deep dark secrets they had there? He's nothing more than a mouth-piece and no one to take final statements from as in he was not in the inner circle of people who would be truly in the know. It's like that TXU spokesperson promising that yes they will not raise prices of electricity and yes they were investigating that wrongfully applied bill that became news because it was a slow news day. In reality, this person is told what to say and is in no way connected to the price-setting or policy effecting mechanism. PR, people. Not scientist. Not connected. Just a pretty face to keep the public happy while work goes on, and yet completely oblivious of what's really happening.
And, if the military acquired such precious specimens as alien life, who in their right mind thinks they would actually call an undertaker to make "child sized" coffins for them? They're specimens for study! Sheesh - we'd more likely pickle them in a tub of formaldehyde! We pay top dollar for meteorites and some of the most valuable material on this earth is moon rocks tucked away in NASA vaults - dirt and rocks treated like a priceless treasure and we're supposed to believe that and undertaker was going to stuff some alien bodies in hastily built coffins? Rubbish!
Both of these stories leads credence to the fact that this whole thing is just a fun little distraction with no fact behind it. Enjoy your fantasy.
I'm ready. I'd bet you're ready. But most of humanity is not.
Three out of four Americans are Christians, and they're definitely not ready. So are most other people of faith - since little green men from Tau Ceti would pretty much blow their creation stories out of the water.
It would be instant chaos. Three out of four people...or more, depending on what part of the world you're from. Suddenly, the foundation and moral code they've all built their life on - is provably false. And therefore...gone. They would go nuts.
If these guys are smart enough to cheat physics and be here, they're probably smart enough to not go public. As a species, unfortunately...we couldn't handle it. Which is a real bummer for me, personally. I'd like to meet them if they're around. I've got nothing to lose, it wouldn't change my world views by very much at all. But for most other folks it would be simply too traumatic.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Many of the accounts of the crash site at Roswell and the parts recovered claim that there was a metal that despite being super thin, was flexible and impervious to damage. Ok... if they really had such a material, how the heck did the craft crash and scatter debris? If the material was that good, how did it come apart? I'd love to believe, but that part in particular has always made me a bit skeptical of the whole incident.
today is spelling optional day.
Not to mention the publicity would help keep interest going in the area, to help out his heirs...
By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
For example, we could have a NVG as early as 1930 because you could use the early iconoscope to capture IR light below the visible power and amplify it as much as you want. That's what TV does, basically, and it is not a surprise that some camcorders are IR-capable.
But that NVG would weigh 200-300 lbs and wouldn't be exactly portable. To make it portable you need to advance the technology quite a lot. First portable NVGs were still vacuum tube based, but implemented in a very smart way, as a series of long parallel holes in a glass plate. The front edge, facing the field, would receive the picture, produce electrons, those electrons would then be accelerated within all the tubes and when they hit the end, facing you, the light would be both visible and bright. That worked like a "bug eye" - once the picture is focused it is transferred as if through a bunch of fibers, just with amplification.
With semiconductors you can create far fancier, and more efficient NVGs. But we, as a society, made every single step of this path, and it is proven beyond doubt how exactly each step was made, by who (scientists like to publish!) and who stepped on shoulders of those giants and made the next advance, etc. etc.
As other people mentioned, if you show me a working time machine, or a fusion battery of CR2032 size, or an FTL drive, then I may want to consider the idea of external help - just because no human on this planet has a foggiest idea about how to even approach any of those challenges. But the problem is that every known invention on this planet is 100% traceable to its origins, and origins of those origins, recursively.
Also they said the amterial with thin and tough. They didn't say they tried to hit it with a hammer to bend it, or blow it up or melt it.
Also there's no telling how hard the ship hit.
This little logic loop is one of the sillier and yet most effective ones in circulation amongst the sceptic crowd.
Here's the way out of the, "People can't keep secrets" trap. . .
It's true; people really can't keep secrets. There are leaks all the time. This article is just such an example. But so what? The military industrial complex has installed a failsafe to catch these leaks. It has gone to massive effort to teach everybody from a very young age that only losers who don't get laid believe in conspiracies, UFO's do not exist, James Randi is not an ego-maniacal twit, your highschool science teacher was not just repeating the same crap they taught him, and that the material universe is the beginning and the end of everything you ever need to know.
With all of that programming in place, when a leak does happen, (like the one in this very article), people climb over each other to rationalize it and ignore it.
How clever is that? Programming the inmates to keep themselves locked up. It's genius.
Interestingly, the slashdot crowd is more apt to falling for this trick because special attention is placed upon them; they're the ones with the brains to work everything out, so you have to make sure they are good and programmed. It's baked into the school system on many levels, one of the most poignant being where jocks are rewarded for bullying the geeks, the cheer leaders would never love a geek, and so the geeks are shunted away from relevance on a deeply emotional level. And so they retaliate by being smart and fearing being laughed at and seeking approval from teachers and authority figures. Any subject which taps this programming, (like UFO's,), simply cannot be argued with just reason. There's huge emotional baggage preventing rational thought from prevailing. --You have to deal with deeply buried emotional trauma and self-worth issues. Believing in UFO's gets you ridiculed, and ridicule means you will never be loved. That's emotional wall #1. It offends the science teachers, who the geeks turned to for emotional validation, so that's emotional wall #2. Two big emotional walls will not be breached with reason alone.
Unless they shed the programming, geeks maintain pretty much a permanent handicap when it comes to TV talking heads lying to them; (talking heads who speak with authority in the same warm-fuzzy tones felt in the, "Isn't Science Nice" stage of programming in the school system).
So realistically, even if Lieutenant Walter Haut had left a movie reel of an alien being cut open, or bits of space metal in with his testimonial, the truth would still be rejected if the Military Industrial Complex did not want it to be accepted, which they don't.
Not until the warm-fuzzy talking TV heads, the school teachers, and the sex-drive of teen-age girls are radically altered, will such ideas become 'real'. And thus, between the church and the science teacher, you have your population under a level of control which allows you to dictate to it what it actually chooses to think and believe.
-FL
A man about to die swears under penalty of law that he saw aliens. He then dies before any such legal penalty could possibly take effect. In other words, the affidavit adds absolutely no authority to these claims. But let's explore the highly unlikely possibility he's telling the truth.
If what this guy is saying is true - the events and observations he lists - then his conclusion that these were aliens from outer space can almost certainly not be true.
His claims are pretty consistent with the standard alien conspiracy theory:
1) Egg-shaped machine flying featuring no external features we currently associate with flying vehicles
2) Said machine was either taken down by our own fighters or malfunctioned and crashed
3) Machine was built of incredibly strong light metal
4) Creatures that are basically humans with certain features pronounced are found dead
IF all of this really happened, then it is incredibly, highly, amazingly statistically unlikely these dead creatures were aliens.
1) If the craft was shot down, why in the world would a craft so advanced that it flies 3x the speed of our best planes, in our atmosphere without any clear method of flight and with super-strong metal not survive attacks by such old US planes? Such a ship would either survive or at the very least escape.
2) Why in the world would the aliens look humanoid? It's arguably unlikely they'd even be carbon-based, they may not even be primarily solid (they could be cells of gases for example). It's nearly impossible they'd be in any way similar in size or shape to us.
The most damning part of #2 is the "like us" problem - it's essentially the same basic reason to question any God hypothesis - because nearly all God descriptions say God is essentially humanoid, which is very self-centered to assume that something so completely foreign and powerful should look anything like us. Both God and these aliens are as statistically likely to look like The Flying Spaghetti Monster as they are us, but more importantly they are MUCH more likely to look as strange as a floating cobble of spaghetti than they are to look familiar to us.
Since statistically this conclusion is so unlikely to be true we need to consider the observations and find an alternate explanation.
Statistically speaking, if we ever did find alien life it would be at a technological state nowhere near our own - so either way, way behind us (we found bacteria!) or way, way ahead of us. They got here so they're not that way behind us kind - so they must be leaps ahead of us. Not hundreds or thousands of years of technology but millions or billions of years ahead of us. Not the kind we shoot down with some crappy planes.
But what does suit this set of observations is a very different conclusion: That the ships observed were ourselves, perhaps 1000 years in the future, experimenting with time travel. They appear, the vessels fail or, not being designed for war (and not having interstellar capability) are shot down, and the dead people inside are what we have evolved to look like.
Whether time travel is actually possible is up for debate, and these observations are obviously dubious, but IF you are to accept this dying man's final words, then you cannot possibly conclude he saw aliens from outer space. He more likely saw our future selves.
The original post said that he could see the US military shooting down such a space craft. I was pointing out that odds of a shoot down where about zero. A crash due to mechanical failure of course possible but I would say unlikely but possible.
My best guess as to what was at Roswell if it wasn't weather ballon.
I think it was a failed test of an ME-163. The US captured several but claim that they never did any powered tests of one. They where egg shaped. Could look like a saucer at the correct angle. And if you where flying one with fuel and it crashed you wouldn't look very human when they found you. The fuel was very nasty stuff.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
>Of course western intelligence services knew all about this but the public was for the most part blissfully unaware. Of course the USA and the Europeans did the exact same thing if possibly on a smaller scale.
In the book "Dark Sun: The Making Of The Hydrogen Bomb" by Richard Rhodes, he says (and provides evidence to support) that from roughly 1949 to the day Frances Gary Powers was shot down, there were US aircraft flying in Russian airspace twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. He goes on to say that every year throughout the early 1950's the US would do trial bombing runs with several dozen bombers and accompanying fighters over major Russian cities, during broad daylight, because the Russians didn't have anything that could stop them, and says that throughout the '50's the US recon aircraft were clearly visible, flying over, and the best the Russians could do was fly mass numbers of airplanes below the US recon aircraft to try and physically block views of things they wanted to keep secret. If you read a bit about Curtis LeMay, you'll end up A: amazed that WWIII didn't happen, and B: with a much better understanding of why the USSR didn't like the USA very much. We were acting like the biggest bullies on the block, unashamedly.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
What makes you think aliens are necessarily any "better" or even particularly different? In fact, it's far more likely that any aliens wandering this far out (being we're on the wrong side of the galactic tracks) WILL be aggressive.
Exploration is a function of aggression. Maybe not overtly, but the ultimate object of exploration is expansion for your species, whether for living space, resources, or whatever.
In fact, failure to proactively defend our planet MIGHT be interpreted as CEDING our planet to said aliens.
We just don't KNOW. But it's foolish to assume that just because someone is exploring the Far Reaches of the Galaxy, that they necessarily come in peace and friendship. We need only look at ourselves for an example, and there is absolutely NO reason to believe that human behaviour is all that unique.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I said that for a reason. I grant you that in the history of the USA that prior to invading Iraq we've never before launched a pre-emptive attack on a country that has not made any belligerent moves towards the USA, so the claim that we're acting like bullies *now* is reasonable. But let's make a comparison: what we did in Iraq is like beating the crap out of a kid on the playground because he was being a small bully who might some day try to trip us. What we did in the USSR was more like going over to the other elementary school and stealing every kid's lunch money, while telling the kid "I could kill you any time I want to" every day for ten years. I think that's far scarier behavior.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
Just kidding :)
But seriously my grandmother it pushing 80 years old at this point. If you just met her you would think she is a completely normal person. She walks around, talks coherently, cooks, etc, just normal old age things like needing to use the bathroom a whole lot and being a little slower and not the best memory any more. But if you get to know her really well like me, well then there is another story. She told me a while back she murdered her first husband. If you had not known her well that would have truly bothered you but consider that a month ago she told me that she was on a walk and saw a purple faced boy with bangs (yes the haircut) that she knows has been murdering and raping old women in the area.
So I am just saying sometimes the mind of an old person become swiss cheese and you really can't believe much of anything they say unfortunately.
I'm not going to play "clashing definitions" with you. The fact of the matter is that this represents new information from an inside source. You can choose to believe or to not, but the leak, whistle-blower, informant, whatever you choose to call him, obviously exists. He's sixty years late, but that doesn't change the fact that he is in a position to know. He's the one who researched and authored the original press release wherein the military at Roswell announced that they had recovered a crashed flying saucer.
Why do I say this? Because if he had this information, and really felt the need to share it, he would have done so sooner. Instead he waited until it was impossible for the consequences to matter. That's all the proof I need.
You can make a statement like that and call my reasoning moronic? You know nothing about this man or how he worked. How can you possibly make any kind of statement about how he would or would not react to the influences in his life and what those reactions mean with regard to the validity of the information he is passing on? You can't, plain and simple. From my perspective, I can see a lot of sense in his approach; while alive, as you point out, he was available to pay the consequences for not towing a military secret. How does that do anything to take away from his testimony? Your reasoning is broken.
And calling his motives "ulterior" is even worse. That's a huge, baseless assumption and judgment based on what appears to be a strong dogmatic bias on your part.
And save that "you've been programmed" crap. It makes sense when you're sitting around your dorm room stoned, but in the light of reason, it's just vacuous. The only thing I've been programmed to do is seek REAL evidence, and this ain't it, not by a mile.
First of all, I don't take drugs. Secondly, the light of reason shines quite brightly in my life; The logical fallacies in your post suggest, however, that you spend less time in the same light. You say you are programmed to seek REAL evidence, and you couldn't be more correct. But who defines REAL for you? Think: you are not even considering the current information now; you are brushing it aside based on assumptions and logical fallacies without even having seen it. All you have is a second hand news report which was light on details.
The point is, the claim may be false, and it may be real. I won't know until I see more. But I am not brushing it aside so thoughtlessly. Thoughtless and forceful rejection of an idea is one of the hallmarks of having been brainwashed.
-FL
I grant you that in the history of the USA that prior to invading Iraq we've never before launched a pre-emptive attack on a country that has not made any belligerent moves towards the USA
Unless you count all the countries in the Carribean, Central America, and half of South America.
I can't believe the civilization as advanced as ours is full of people who can't even program a computer. It's just odd.
It's just the opposite - the more advanced we get, the more specialized our jobs become. If you live in a tribe in the jungle, you might know everything your civilization knows. If you live in a space age civ, you can't possibly.
Can you make your own clothes? Grow your own food? Build a telephone? Diagnose your own illnesses? Design your own car? Draft your own legislation? For everything you answer "yes," there are a hundred other jobs you can't do for yourself because there isn't time in one life to learn it all.
My med-school-student fiance will never know how to program a computer, and doesn't care to. But you'll be glad she hasn't wasted her time on that if she's your doctor someday.
And the Native Americans themselves, of course...
'No rational religion claims "supernatural" exists, that's an atheist slander.' - seen on slashdot.