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Second Life Lawsuit Heads to Federal Court
Conlaw writes "A former plumbing contractor who has made a new career selling virtual cyber sex toys in the virtual world of Second Life, has now brought suit against another player who is allegedly copying and selling a device called the Sex Gen. The plaintiff, whose avatar is known as 'Stroker Serpentine,' is seeking the real name of the copycat entrepreneur. The reporter describing the lawsuit included commentary from a cyber law professor whose university maintains a virtual Supreme Court in the Second Life world."
Shouldn't he use a virtual lawyer in second life, and sell the stuff for virtual money? Just a thought.
Someone better start operating one...Then virtual cops can come and enforce the decision and virtual collectors agencies can come and take your virtual goods to pay any restitutions and then your virtual character can be locked up in virtual jail where you can escape with the virtual file to saw off the virtual bars. Then they can have a virtual chase of the prison escapee..
Oh yes they do. If you are on US soil US laws apply. If you are a US citizen US laws apply regardless of where you are.
the virtual court should sentence the virtual guy for the rest of his virtual life in the virtual prison!
What's next? the virtual death penalty?
only in america....
Why should a virtual not be beholden to the laws of a specific nation? Frankly, the game is a service put out by a company and they should be, like every business, subject to the laws of the particular nation they operate out of.
What really irks me is people who try and make the case that the internet is its own reality.
What happened? People first took games too seriously because of violent content, now since MMORPGs, gamers also take it too seriously in general.
What happened?
a Sex Gen is kind of a machine that manipulates avatars into various positions. [...] Alderman said Volkov Catteneo is not the only avatar who has done him wrong. "A lot of people copy me, copy my work, copy my ideas," he said. "Because it's an anonymous platform where you're an avatar cartoon character, as opposed to a real-life person, people think they can operate with impunity."
He's basically talking about animation files. Now, if people literally copy the bits in his animation files, that would be a copyright violation; he'd have a case. But SL makes it pretty hard to do that, and that doesn't sound like what he is complaining about.
Sounds like he is complaining about that people create animations that are "like" his, not merely his. But that basically means that he claims a copyright on the missionary position and that's not right. Copyright doesn't protect ideas, it only protects specific expressions of those ideas. And generic, common expressions aren't copyrightable either, and it seems like the missionary position is pretty generic and common.
One would have to assume from TFA that the plaintif has copyright and trademarks that he feels are being infringed on. He certainly has been making real income from a real business, and feels that someone is unfairly making money off of his ideas and stealing his customers. He feels he has a right to the protection of his intellectual property, whether sold through a virtual world or not.
This might be the best case I've seen for drawing firmer lines around what is reasonably protected IP.
Can this case be extended to software patents? Certainly there are some parallels, but is there any chance that a courts ruling in this can be applied to the other issues that the industry faces?
B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
I bet anyone who read that will never look at Pinocchio the same.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
I believe we call it "No Life" in the industry....
The Old World had:
1. Lawsuits.
2. Taxes.
3. Life
So what does the New World have?
1. Virtual Lawsuits.
2. Virtual Taxes.
3. Virtual Life.
Kinda makes you wonder if people are really as stupid and detached from reality as they act.....
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
The fact that this is happening in the first place, or that I actually knew Stroker from a few years back, or that he's a former plumber trying to make a living selling digimawhatsits to stuff in your digimalwhoosals.
Either way, I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now.g
I'll believe in corporations having personhood when Texas executes one... - advocate_one
Somebody set us up the dildo!
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
"career selling virtual cyber sex toys in the virtual world of Second Life"
Honestly, you can't read that summary and not completely agree with me: having a (first) life should be made mandatory.
is that selling sex toys in Second Life apparently pays more than a unionized contracting gig like plumbing.
please explain how a virtual sex toy works and how I sell one?
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Twat.
Ass = Donkey
Arse = Arse
Uneducated fuckwit, sorry, typical USian.
Okay, how about this: Should a gardening supply store be held responsible for supplying soil to someone who grows their own pot? Is this not a similar situation? Yes, Second Life developers are in the United States however the 'soil' they've given to people doesn't have borders.
What irks me is that someone can make more money online making 'cyber dildos' than plumbing.
[J]
I HAVE FINALLY SEEN IT ALL! How the... would all of you lame brains just grow up? I agree, people should have a real life before they are allowed to polute digital ones.
Actually, SL is pretty good about IP. You can imbue items with "no copy" proprties and stuff like that.
Posting from a Wii btw.
Apology to Ubuntu forum.
This is like HP complaining that Lexmark copied their work/idea about selling printers and expensive inkjet cartridges.
Someone needs to go out a get a third life.
I guess he is selling plumbing services of another sort.
In Second Life you own the IP for the items you create. That is made explicitly clear in the TOS. They even explain how you can send take-down notices as per the process outlined by the DMCA.
They do not, however, serve as judge and jury. IP is a legal issue, and so if you have an IP dispute you need to resolve it in court.
I read the article (weird, eh?) and I am not sure if the accused is:
1) Selling byte-for-byte duplicates with the same object name and brand name,
2) Selling byte-for-byte duplicates under a different object or brand name,
3) Selling similar but created-from-the-ground-up products under the same object name or brand name,
4) Selling similar but created-from-the-ground-up products under a different object or brand name.
I think these distinctions are pretty important, especially when making an IP claim. If selling the object under the same object or brand name, he could be accused of violating a trademark (which isn't exactly the same thing). If he is selling byte-for-byte duplicates of the products, then current IP laws (as bad as they are) would logically apply.
However, if he simply created a similar product, and is selling it under a different name, then this is just another case of someone believing that having made an intellectual product entitles them to ownership of anything and everything similar. This is, IMO, the most harmful abuse of the concept of IP....the ownership of a class of ideas over a particular instance of an idea. The maker of a sex-toy is not within his rights to expect that no one else can make similar sex toys, IMO, and IP laws should make that clear.
But hey, if you're in a fatasy world that gives you a fake id, participate in acts that would be illegal in many countries then why should anyone get real world pay out for fantasy world IP violations?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Well, *shit*.
I was playing Half-Life 2 last night, so that's gonna be trouble. I could plead self-defense on all the dead Combine, and since they're not *really* people then I could probably dodge a manslaughter charge, but I shot a medic right in the head when he wouldn't get out of my way in the hall and like ten people saw it. Better get Robert Blake's lawyer on speed dial...
Second Life is so un-fun and stupid it's a crime.
Considering that a typical UK plumber makes twice what most IT geeks with 10+ yrs experience makes, I think you're entitled to be irked. Or, be constructive: go use those IT skills to create more cyber sex toys. At least we can beat China on production costs in this case.
Wow... Simply Amazing!
Fantasy and reality have finally merged. Whatever happened to "it's a game, dammit!"? How are we going to tell our kids that what they see on the TV is not real? Any judge that doesn't throw this kind of thing out and bring charges against those who wasted the court's time and taxpayers' money is off his rocker and should be removed from the bench.
What?
Thats actually a great idea!
Step 1: Build Fox River on Second Life
Step 2: Charge for admission into Fox River
Step 3: Profit!
Check out Unsealed: Whispers of Wisdom! http://unsealed.k3rnel.net It's an action-RPG about Open Sourcerers.
If I get your meaning, you should note that Linden Labs is being subpoenaed, not sued. Big difference.
You hush up or I'll kick you in the fanny!
Congratulations on continuing your rich tradition of FAILING.
Seriously... I'm going to sit idly by and wait until the first virtual rape case comes out.
Doesn't that mean that the players have already got a (first) life?
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
It's when you pretend you have a girlfriend.
Most slashdotters should be familiar with the concept...
>Why should a virtual not be beholden to the laws of a specific nation?
So if somebody sells virtual drugs in a virtual game, should he go to brick&mortar jail?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I haven't observed the sexual habits of any other /.ers...have you?
www.purevolume.com/martyd
What if the owners of Second Life were to change their operations to another country. Say, one that decided that all enforced different laws about art and wished to execute not just artists, but those that supported artists in second life?
Not a good idea to support real-world laws to a digital world.
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
So I pay some chinese peasant to ride the tractor.
My girlfriend continues to rail against "all of the killing and murder going on in her house" every night as I game. I try to tell her than I am I am trying to save the world.
Horns are really just a broken halo.
So in the event that the person perpetrating the infringement is located in another country I'd like you to explain me how to apply the laws of the USA to this specific individual. The problem is that there is not a global body of government that dictates what the world should and shouldn't do. One purpose of the internet is to circumvent traditional borders and barriers to provide for ease of communication globally.
So here we are...we have a virtual Global Internet community with almost nil global regulation and we have several highly regulated societal bodies that all want control. Until these real world regulatory bodies decide to unite and form global regulations for interactions in a VIRTUAL space, you can shut the hell up. The only other option is disallowing interactions between currently existing regulatory bodies (*cough*China*cough*) which annihilates the primary function of the internet.
--
The events taking place at Tiananmen Square were a tragedy that the Chinese Government should be ashamed of and make public apology for.
(forcing the Chinese Government to censor things is fun!)
Actually the Internet is its own unreality like science fiction writing. Things are not tangible, maybe visible in the case of SL but not tangible. The laws of the tangible world do not translate to the virtual world in most cases. When one gains an understanding of the differences then it's obvious new laws need to be applied to the virtual world, not from the real world. It's where these world cross that problems arise but that doesn't mean we should immediately accept real-world law.
...and that she has eight breasts and a tail.
The articles that were being sold were digital duplicates. The plaintiff was selling them based on the popularity of our "SexGen" line. This is not a matter of competition, it is a matter of exploit and theft. All the scripts, animations and sounds were identical. We would not have brought this suit to court otherwise.
Dumbass.
Dumb = Ignorant
Ass = You
Proud to be an American.
If you are a US citizen US laws apply regardless of where you are.
More like:
"If you are a US citizen US laws apply to you and to those around you regardless of where you (or they) are."
Well, thats what the US government and corporates would like anyway.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
It's when you pretend you are the girlfriend.
Fixed that for you.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
working with a licensed plumber. When people asked if I was a full time plumber they would be dismayed and sometimes concerned when I told them I worked with computers mostly during the day. People generally want their plumbers to be plumbers.
Just imagine his client's faces when he said he creates sex toys in a virtual world on the side. (I imagine he probably didn't tell them that or left plumbing before this but still, it would be funny to see.)
(BTW, Plumbing is fun. Except when it involves feces.)
Consider the possibilities of DRM. The pirated copy could do anything from inciting impotence to exploding.
It is possible to play SL and never once buy a "sex gen" product, if that's what bothers you. And of course it's also possible to play it without selling pirated copies of someone else's products. Unless you were hoping to do either of these things, what's stopping you?
On the internet, people want to protect their sex moves with copyright?
Good grief.
Since the law covers actualy drugs only, why should he?
Lemme see:
- Virtual lawsuits: nope, don't exist. This is a RL lawsuit, alleging that someone used a hacking tool to copy some copyrighted scripts and animations. The fact that those animations and scripts are used as, basically, a mod for a game, doesn't make it any less real.
To put things into perspective, let's say you wrote a bunch of scripts for anything else: a mod for a game, an application server, whatever. It's your product. Then I come along and not only copy it, but put my name on it and sell it as my own script pack. Why the fuck does it matter if it's for a game, or for adminning WebSphere, or configuring a Gentoo box? I took your work and put my name on it.
- Virtual taxes: nope, don't exist either. All that keeps popping up now and then is the idea that if you sell something in _real_ life, for _real_ money, then it's RL income and the government wants its cut. If you make a living selling second-hand cars, then you have to pay income tax and possibly VAT. If you make a living selling computer clip-art or fonts (also exist as only files) on your web site, the same applies. If you make a living selling virtual items on your web-site, for real money, it's just as much an income, and you're just as much supposed to pay income tax for it.
What's so horribly hard to understand there? If you make an income, regardless of what you sell or do for it, you get taxed. There's no special provision for virtual stuff, and it certainly isn't a virtual tax.
- Virtual life: nope, trust me, noone takes it too seriously. It's just a funky name for playing a game, or having a chat room with graphics. At the end of the day, noone forgets that they're in RL, playing a game. At any rate, unless you're a luddite and never played a game, exactly what's your problem?
So, indeed, reading posts like yours really makes me wonder if people are really as stupid and detached from reality as they act. You operate on some wildly false assumptions and take a leap to the "I'm so smart, all these people are stupid" ego-masturbation based on nothing more than that. Did you stop to even try to understand what really happens there before jumping to the "people are so stupid" masturbation exercise? Nah, because you're obviously soo smart that you must be right anyway. Not.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I hope to god that Jack Thompson doesn't read that post. Who knows what damage he could do with a quote.
If this were really happening, what would you think?
This all hinges on whether he has suffered financial loss. Linden Labs have turned this into a grey area.
On the one hand, Linden Dollars are game tokens. They have absolutely no intrinsic worth in real life, nor does Second Life "property". This means that LL have no obligations to make their systems to "trading standards", and spurious losses are not uncommon.
On the other hand, alongside third parties, LL operate and profit from a currency exchange between US and Linden dollars. They manage the market to try to maintain a stable exchange rate, meaning there is a de facto value for Linden Dollars in real life, even though it is not a currency.
IMHO, the first carries more weight, and it means that the "financial loss" premise for this action is invalid. Whatever the actions taken by the defendant, the plaintiff cannot have suffered financial loss because the "currency" in which this loss has arisen has no statutory value.
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
Well, consider it something like a ship in international waters. Then the only thing deciding what law applies is whose deck you're standing on. Certainly as long as that means the US has jurisdiction, I expect them to apply the same logic and make the whole of Second Life fall under US jurisdiction by virtue of being located in the US. Enforcement will be the normal international quagmire of extradition treaties and funds freezing, but I don't think for a second anyone would rule that Second Life is a place outside the law.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Jesus H. Christ on a Bicycle. Get outside more.
The title makes it sound like this is a career change. The guy is still in the business of manipulating plumbing.
Oh well at least now I can sue that retard who comes in my cs1.6 server with the same name as me, instead of just changing his name for him (after all, I am a god in my server...right?). I know it confuses other people, because I catch my self saying, "whoa hold up, I almost shot myself, can't do that."
This is Slashdot! Give me the latest gadget, bug, or OS project! This ain't english class so don't confuse the two!
I'd just like to say that I find the entire Second Life universe to be laughable. I'm aware that most of my fellow /.ers feel the same way, but I think it needed to be said out loud.
::shudders::
It's not even the furry BS that goes on in it. (Don't lie to me, I know it's a rampant part of SL, I downloaded and played it). It's something far deeper, more annoying, and sinister. I feel dirty after logging into my account. This is coming from a person who frequents certain... Image boards on the internet. So that's saying a lot.
Internet: Serious Business
I am going to copyright them all and then rent them for say a dollar per time to the slashdot crowd. Why, before the year is out, I might just be able to buy a cup of coffee. From a machine.
Anyone thats been to Amsterdam alone can tell you US laws only apply on US soil, citizen or not your not going to get arrested for smoking up in a coffee shop, hell a cop will tell you the closest coffee shop. Oh, and since you probably haven't been....in Amsterdam a coffee shop is just a place to get high with dozens of other ppl.
Anyone that's been to thailand can tell you, citizen of US or not, hookers are cheep and your not going to get arrested, even the cops will tell you where they get thiers from.
So, just make sure you know what your talking about before you talk about it.This is Slashdot! Give me the latest gadget, bug, or OS project! This ain't english class so don't confuse the two!
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
ROFLOL
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
Seriously. Stop.
It's a game? Please describe the plot/story. no? Okay, well how do you win. hrm?
.. let's leave the good old G-word out of it. Unless you consider running a business for profit on SL a "game" that's about the only sort of gaming there is that is in-grained into the fabric of the SL software.
what's funny is that it fits the definition of RPG better than any MMORPG, except for the G part. but there is certainly lots and lots of Role-Playing in SL.
It's an Massively Multiuser Holo-Deck then?
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I think there may be some confusion here regarding the difference between the laws applying in a particular location and the laws being enforced in that location.
1 097.html it is likely that he's going to be facing criminal prosecution for the actions he took on foreign soil.
Let's take for instance Cuba. US Citizen Bob travels (by way of another country) to Cuba to hang out on the beach, and while there he decides to buy some cigars. Will he be arrested in the cigar shop? Almost certainly not.
If, however, he is caught with Cuban cigars on the way back into the country, and other evidence is found that he traveled to Cuba and violated US laws which prohibit his unlicensed commercial transactions there, then according to http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_
The Cuban police certainly weren't enforcing US law within Cuba, but Bob really isn't going to get the charges dropped by claiming he was abroad and therefore US law didn't apply.
If you're up for a bit of a read, the Harvard International Law Journal dealt with the issue of projected jurisdiction, how it relates to anti-terrorism enforcement abroad, and potential constitutional limits. It's all at http://www.harvardilj.org/print/101
Just look at the name of the game - it is INTENDED to be its own reality.
What is next, arresting people for assault when they shoot NPC characters in video games? How about player characters?
How about when you get ambushed by an organized gang of thieves. Should you have recourse in the courts?
What societal end is gained by punishing these people? In real life it is obvious - preservation of life and the economy. What economy is there in virtual goods that has an impact on the real world other than entertainment value (which certainly is a real thing, but not something we should be locking people up over).
Everyone's talk about making virtual laws. What you guys need to figure out is....who....under any Government, has the right to make those laws. Said person would be pretty much God like. Take for instance my server for cs. I make the rules there. You don't like them....to bad go elsewhere. So what political figure (cause its going to be one) would you want to govern your "free time"?
This is Slashdot! Give me the latest gadget, bug, or OS project! This ain't english class so don't confuse the two!
Good point, and you've indirectly raised what I feel is the key issue here. Is there any difference between an idea that relates to the real world, and one which relates purely to a virtual world? Key points to consider might be: the distinction (if any) between a virtual world and its medium; the extent to which the real world can be treated as consisting entirely of information; and how do you value something with unrestricted supply?
There's a great book called Permutation City which, despite at least one logical flaw in its plot, is an excellent crowbar for one's mind on this topic. Well worth reading. It does address the question of needs of the real world vs needs of the simulation, and concludes in this case that the container will exercise control. Things that exist only in the simulation do have influence, because they control certain flows of information and intelligence, but as they become more sophisticated (including being intelligent), they necessarily become more self-referential and less relevant.
In this particular case, it becomes difficult for outsiders to relate the internal value to the simulation to value in the real world. One can guess that the claimant wouldn't be interested in virtual justice, because the value of the virtual world to him is in real-world money. Here we're back to the potentially thorny problem of how money (increasingly admitted to be a thing with purely informational existence, sometimes represented with physical objects, since countries began decoupling monetary value from comodities) relates to informational products. This is also tied up in some of the issues with media sharing going on at the moment.
Gosh, I have wittered on. Anyway, highly recommend Permutation City and a good economics textbook if you want some interesting insights on how the future of ICT might look.
For those that don't play SL, think if it this way;
The OS is Second Life. This guy wrote a program, his sex gen stuff.
Someone made a copy of the program and is giving it away/selling it.
That's a pretty accurate statement of what happened. SL is very much like an OS in this context, and the sex gen stuff requires scripting, graphic design, et al.
Taken the other way, since Microsoft's OS is virtual property, why would they sue someone who pirates it?
All these threads that virtual theft isn't theft may hold true in most other MMO's, but not in this one.
because reality doesn't apply there. Money can be created, destroyed with little ramification, more land can be generated with a few lines of code, real people don't die. It is a virtual world with a different set of parameters then the real world.
I got news for you, SL isn't the internet.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The suit is about use of a trademark.
Where did you pull that from? Before you put words in his mouth, why don't you bother reading what he is really complaining about? It's only a mouse-click away!
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
If only that statement were true. Unfortunately, Second Life is linked with the real world economy. First off, people spend REAL money to purchase Linden dollars and rent property. Second off, and possibly worse, there's an equities exchange system that allows people to trade real currency with virtual currency. Because of this, creation and destruction of money can have significant ramification.
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
Now that the client's been open sourced, that cat's permanently out of the bag.
Only if the software is utter crap. What - you've never heard of encryption?
This is Slashdot! Give me the latest gadget, bug, or OS project! This ain't english class so don't confuse the two!
Like I was saying before, I think the key distinction here is between enforcement and applicability.
g rams/cuba/cuba.shtml/, these sanctions _apply_ to all US Citizens and permanent residents, no matter where in the world they happen to be. (If they did not apply in Cuba, they would be very ineffective sanctions) Will these sanctions ever be enforced in Cuba by the Cuban government? Of course not. The enforcement waits for Bob's return to US soil, exactly like you were saying. The law, however, continues to restrict which actions Bob can legally take from a US perspective, no matter where he is.
I totally and 100% agree with you that the US has no authority to enforce its laws outside of its territory. That's not something I ever meant to argue. What I meant to argue is that--despite lack of enforcement--a number of laws do still _apply_ (in the sense of restricting which actions are legal from a US government perspective) to those outside of US territory. To go back over my example and rephrase it a bit, it doesn't particularly matter what Bob is trying to bring back into the country...it wasn't a matter of the cigars being illegal. I was explaining that bob could be criminally charged for violating US Department of Treasury sactions on cuba. Bob's simple act of spending money in cuba was the illegal part. I was just using cigars because they'd be a stereotypical way for bob to get caught.
According to Treasury's web site at http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/pro
Copying and blatantly selling your copyrighted works is just plain stupid. I don't hope he gets prison time, but this kind of thing isn't something we should condone. I hope you are able to continue working on future releases of your products.
Now on the other hand, if you were arguing that your scripts for moving into a missionary position should be copyrighted for your lifetime+70 years, I think you'd need a smackdown.
Yes, but in-game rules over-ride real-world rules. Else what is the point in playing?
With second life (one game I haven't tried yet) I'd imagine they could set up an in-game court system. More fun that way, and they could set up their own IP laws. If RL lawyers want to play, let them buy an account!
The internet isn't its own reality, but if you set something up to have different realities (one where magic for instance, applies) you shouldn't expect RL laws to apply there.