Microsoft Acknowledges 360 Issues, Extends Warranty to 3 Years

RamblinLonghorn writes "Microsoft has announced that they are extending the warranty for all Xbox 360s to 3 years. This appears to be entirely retroactive and that 'those who have already paid for such repair charges can expect reimbursement checks for the amount of their console repair.' It seems as though Microsoft is accepting the blame for the hardware malfunctions, but it is worth noting that this warranty modification only applies in the 'Red Rings of Death' situation."

Comments

MS??

[jriding]

They actually admitted to anything that was considered wrong from their part?

Re:MS??

[Volante3192]

Probably realized they were getting dangerously close to a class action lawsuit which would've been much more expensive.

Re:MS??

[aichpvee]

I think that tells you just how bad the situation is. I'd like to see their numbers on how many 360s have come up dead as well as how much it's costing them to do all these replacements.

Re:MS??

[ClosedSource]

I think that a potential threat to the image of the Xbox brand would be more important to MS than the threat of a class action lawsuit. If they lost the latter, the settlement would probably require that they distribute discount coupons for Xbox 360 games.

Re:MS??

[twistedsymphony]

dailytech had an article last week saying that reports from the BestBuys, Eb Games etc... that offer their own replacement services were seeing 25-33% return rates.

Microsoft is claiming that this will cost them 1.1-1.3Billion

You can read a more in-depth analysis of the error on my site.

Oh and it's the "3 Red Lights of Death" not the "Red Rings of Death" There is only 1 ring and only 3 of the 4 lights glow red... to correct TFA

I'd like a 360

[MBCook]

I'd like a 360. I really would. There are games I'd like to play (PGR3, Dead Rising, some others), as well as games coming out I'd like to play (Rock Band and many others). But I keep hearing about failures. I know people who are on at least their 3rd 360. I've seen the estimations recently putting the failure rates as high as ~30% (which, even if is off by 5x is quite high). If you combine that with the noise the things make, I'm hesitant to buy one. I keep waiting for a re-spin of the silicon (moving to a smaller process should help with the heat/noise issues).

The Elite might have got me but instead of pushing the models down, they just put the Elite on top with a new higher price point.

Re:I'd like a 360

[Seumas]

I haven't had a lot of problems with mine, except that Forza 2 won't play. I've tried four different brand new copies of it and about 98% of the time, the XBOX 360 tries to play it as if it were a DVD and not a game. I literally have to reboot the XBOX about 40 times every time I want to play, before it finally works. Mind you, my 48+ other XBOX 360 games are just fine in it.

What's weird is when I called a month ago for help with the game (no solutions, they were baffled), it turned out my XBOX had another year of coverage on it... the first year expires in ten days, but they said my expiration for warranty was actually in 2008. I wonder if it was because of this.

Also, I wonder what this means for people who paid the $60 extra for a warranty? Microsoft gave something like a one year warranty with the console and for another $60, you could get a second year (I think). So I wonder if those people will actually get four years, now?

And if your product is failing so often that it's impacting your actual *game* sales (who's going to buy games when their console is broken?), maybe you should just replace everyone's console with a good one. Otherwise it's like having a Pinto and saying "this car is going to explode -- we won't replace it now, but if it blows up in a year, we will replace it then".

Re:I'd like a 360

[ObiWanStevobi]

I had a DVD drive go out, but no other problems. Considering the hours into the machine, It's no less reliable than any computer. Out everyone I know that has one, I'm the only one that has sent one back. IMO, the seem as reliable as any computer. Disk drives fail eventually, I'm not more sure of anything other than death and taxes. I haven't seen or personally heard of any other problems with them.
But you are correct, they can be quite noisy and and do put out a great deal of heat. As far North as I am, I've just considered it a bonus. It's like a space heater than gives me countless hours of entertainment as well.

Re:I'd like a 360

[bastion_xx]

I bought the 360 when it first came out in November 2004. Red ring of death in Feb of 2007. I was dreading sending it back for repair, but decided to ask Costco what my options were. They said bring it back in to any store and get a full refund.

So I bought a new package deal, swapped out all the components, and everyone is happy. It's a hard return policy to beat, and is especially handy when dealing with electronic goods (sans TV's, computers and I think cameras, where the return policy is now 90 days).

Okay, back to Forza 2!

Re:I'd like a 360

[aichpvee]

Of course you're assuming that they actually have good consoles. Given that just about everyone I meet with a 360 is on at least their third I'm not so sure that they're even capable of producing enough "good" ones for everyone who already owns one. Leave it to microsoft to bring windows-quality to hardware.

Re:I'd like a 360

[illegalcortex]

Just a note - a friend bought an iPod at CostCo. Two years later, it croaked. One day while in CostCo, he cracked a remark while talking to a manager about how disappointed he was that it had not lasted more than two years. The guy told him to bring it in. He did, they pulled up his CostCo card to confirm it was bought there (well, SOME iPod was bought there by him), and they gave him a full refund.

I'm more and more impressed by CostCo every time I hear these stories.

Re:I'd like a 360

[ogreinside]

I have been a Costco member for over 5 years. Recently a "theater-in-a-box" DVD drive stopped opening/closing that I purchased over 4 years ago. I took it back, and they pulled up the receipt, and gave me a full refund. I paid $400 or so for it then, and now it isn't worth 1/4 of that. I was extremely impressed that they refunded it. I was only expecting a partial credit.

I am waiting for them to carry the Elite, then maybe I'll buy it from them, and them only. I'm still waiting to see what GTA IV does. I may just get it for my PC instead. I don't really care about any other games. My Wii is extremely fun right now.

Re:I'd like a 360

[WeeLad]

I haven't had a lot of problems with mine, except that Forza 2 won't play. I've tried four different brand new copies of it and about 98% of the time, the XBOX 360 tries to play it as if it were a DVD and not a game. I literally have to reboot the XBOX about 40 times every time I want to play, before it finally works.

I actually had the same problem with Forza 2. It's a good game when it starts up, but it usually takes me a couple of reboots (if I have the patience to try). That's the only game it happens on for me too, so maybe that's more disc-related.

Though my 360 is relatively young, it has been problem free so far.

Re:I'd like a 360

[ApharmdB]

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't heat become a bigger issue when the circuit is smaller and therefore the transistors are more dense? Sure, the process might be operating at a lower voltage, but the density outweighs that. Note that with CPUs the heat issue has become more and more difficult with reduced process size. Now maybe because the Xbox chip won't be increasing its functionality and will therefore have a similar number of now smaller transistors the heat issue could be reduced. But when you move to a smaller process, that doesn't mean you can now spread smaller transistors out over the same area. One generally needs to keep interconnecting lines short to prevent parasitic resistance and capacitance problems.

I guess I can't say whether the heat issue would get better or worse because I'm not sure which factor would wind up dominating.

Re:I'd like a 360

[Seumas]

You would think the issue would have been dealt with by now if it's a disc problem (which it probably is), since tons of people would be encountering it. I have purchased four copies of Forza 2 from three different sources, so they should be different batches... and all four had the same problem. Argh.

Red rings of death

[Anonymous Coward]

...and for those of us who have no idea wtf the "red rings of death are", see here

(Posted anonymously to avoid karma whoring)

Re:Red rings of death

[linzeal]

I thought it was like that song "burning rings of fire" being about STDs.

Re:Red rings of death

[illegalcortex]

It burns, burns, burns...

Re:Red rings of death

[HalAtWork]

It's what you see in your awards icons when you catch a certain XBox 360 virus that re-routes all DNS lookups to a goatse cache.

Bravo Microsoft

[DarkFencer]

I'm not normally a fan of MS, nor do I own a 360, but this is a great move by Microsoft - and not something they NEEDED to do. They could have just fixed the problems and made it a year or so but by extending this to a three year warranty (retroactive) they are going to save a lot of people money.

Companies like GameStop who sell extended warranties though might not be happy since I certainly wouldn't buy one now that MS is backing their system up for 3 years.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Bravo???

Microsoft rushes to market the most poorly designed console in history.
Stonewalls on the insane failure rate for two years.
Makes 360 owners go through hell each and every time their 360 dies yet again.
Leaves people with disc scratching drives in the lurch.
And finally is forced to somewhat admit the problem and fork up a billion dollars.

Yeah, 'bravo' Microsoft...

So if you are one of the poor sods who actually bought a 360 you are still looking at your console dieing from a few weeks to few months over and over again. What a complete joke of a company and system.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[DarkFencer]

Do I think they screwed up and should have done this a long time ago? Sure. Would it have been better if they kept stonewalling and never admitted an issue - or if they did only agree to fix within the year? Absolutely not. They screwed up for a while and are fixing the problem now. If you don't believe that they will also fix the root cause of the hardware now - with a three year commitment to have working systems for their customers, then you're crazy.

A three year warranty in the electronics industry, even after the fact, is EXTREMELY rare, without paying extra up front (or a monthly fee for many cell phone companies/vendors).

They could have done a LOT less and most customers (since Sony this generation is sucking hard and the Wii still doesn't have enough games - especially the type most XBox 360 owners want) would have had to suck it up and deal. They instead changed their policy and are now giving a three year warranty, none of which they are being forced to do.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

360s were constantly failing in demo and media/press review units a least a couple months before the system hit the shelves. Microsoft has know the system was defective by design even earlier.

And YET they decided to go right ahead and ship a fundamentally defect piece of hardware.

How can ANYONE in ANYWAY defend that utterly despicable action.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[I'm Don Giovanni]

Extending the warranty is great, but how about actually fixing the problem?
Supposedly the problem is that the heat isn't disipated properly, which leads to internal parts being warped (ever so slightly), which severs/loosens connections. It's time to fix the damn problem! Move to 65nm chips (which I hear produce less heat). I really want an Xbox360, but I don't have time to put up with a broken unit, even with a 3-year warranty. Fix the problem, get the defect rate down to ~5%, and I'm in! :)

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[MBraynard]

Most electronics have 5-7 years warranty on them.

Like what? Not my cell phone. Not my GPS watch. Not my clock radio.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[NeMon'ess]

The original playstation had widespread problems with heat. As in having to prop up the edges on books to let air circulate underneath. It was easy to tell when it was overheating, because video cut-scenes would stutter. Eventually many of the overheating machines did fail. So quite a large percentage of owners had to buy a new one. The only good news was by then a new one only cost $129 or $99.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[Shados]

Im fairly sure that Microsoft would have sold an extra 3 to 5 million consoles at least if that problem had been fixed promptly... So there must be one -hell- of a reason they didn't. I'm quite curious what it is, but considering the rep Microsoft is getting on this one, and how many lost sales they are eating (not counting how many publishers are a bit annoyed at this and may decide not to to invest in the 360), something's up...

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[aichpvee]

I don't think anyone at microsoft cares. They have enough money to replace every 360 they sell every three months until they discontinue the thing and still have tons of cash in the bank. Three years from now they'll be selling xbox 720 (also rushed to market and broken) so this warranty should be expiring right around the time the system does.

Do you honestly think that microsoft is in the game console business to make money or a quality product? They might employ a few people who would like to make quality products, but its really all about lock-in. This is what happened when they realized that the dedicated "set-top box" wasn't going to fly and that what was going to work was the game console as living room entertainment convergence device. If you think xbox is about anything other than extending the windows monopoly you're not only nuts but very, very stupid.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[IrquiM]

Every thing in Norway does, and lots of other countries in Europe too... :)

My cellphone has 5 years warranty ;)
My TV has got 5 years warranty ;)
My PS3 has got 5 years warranty ;)
My etc...

This does not apply for parts that are worn out because of heavy use like batteries in laptops and mobile phones (1 year warranty on batteries) or lasers in PS2s, but for anything else "supposed to last for 5 years or more" there is a 5 year warranty against production error.

In other words... Microsoft would've had to fix the "ring of death" units in Norway for free even though they hadn't extended this warranty, unless they can prove it is the users fault and not theirs.
One of the reasons why everything is more expensive here? Might be :) But at least it covers our asses :)

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[LKM]

I'd say "Bravo Microsoft for doing more than I expected you to do, even if it is way less than you should be doing."

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[LKM]

Wow. Yeah. The elected government doing something that actually helps consumers for a change is such a bad thing, isn't it? I take it you're living in the USA, aren't you?

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Your baffling implications are that if his country had a bigger ethnic mix, goods would be cheaper?

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[Eivind]

Sort of. First, it is 5 years for everything with an expected lifespan in excess of *2* years. Really. It is strange, but really, an item with a expected life-span of 3 years is covered for 5 years. But more importantly: It is not a warranty. It does not cover normal wear-and-tear, nor consumer-abuse. What it *does* cover is defects or weaknesses in materials or workmanship. Also, the burden-of-proof rests on the manufacturer only in the first year, thereafter it's "most likely". So, in the first year, the manufacturer would have to replace such items for free, unless *he* can demonstrate that the failure is the result of abuse or normal wear. In following 4 years though, you *do* have to demonstrate that it is likely (as in more likely than the alternative) that the defect is caused by weaknesses in material or workmanship. How easy this is depends on the details of the failure. If you can demonstrate that several other people with the same product has suffered the same failure-mode, your chances grow. More importantly, in general *you* have the choice between repair and replacement, unless that would be an undue burden on the manufacturer. Which means that for a standard item, like an Xbox360, you can demand a replacement unit if the first one dies, you don't have to settle for having yours "repaired". If you *do* accept a repair, you have the rigth to borrow a similar unit for the duration of the repair if the repair will take more than 1 week. This choice of replacement/repair does not apply when there it would be unreasonable, generally interpreted by the courts as a factor of 5 or so. So, if you buy a car, and then discover that one of the wheels is unbalanced, it'd be unreasonable to demand that the manufacturer replace the entire car. (fixing the problem is 3 orders of magnitude cheaper than replacing the car) Read the law. It's not in legalese, but perfectly understandable Norwegian. (well, for folks knowing Norwegian anyway), knowing your rigths can and will save you a *lot* of money and trouble trough your life. And consumer-protection laws are just about the most useful laws to know.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[tepples]

If there were a bigger ethnic mix in Norway, there would be more vitamin D deficiency because dark skin blocks vitamin D manufacture. Or does Norway's health care system cover vitamin D supplements for citizens of African or South Asian descent?

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[Phisbut]

The original playstation had widespread problems with heat. As in having to prop up the edges on books to let air circulate underneath. It was easy to tell when it was overheating, because video cut-scenes would stutter.

I bought a slim PS2 2 years ago, and making it slim means they removed many fans that would keep it cool. I still need to prop up the edges on books to let air circulate underneath, otherwise, an hour long gaming session is decorated with all sorts of fuzzy colors on screen.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[I'm Don Giovanni]

I listent to the MSFT conference call regarding this. They indidcated that for the first year or so, the defect rate wasn't that high, but really increased in recent months as units that were over a year old began failing. This increased the need for fixes, but more importantly, gave them a larger data set with which to work with to try to find reasons for the problem. They say they've identified numerous causes for the problem and have made fixes to address those, so that units manufactured from now on should be much more reliable.

Peter Moore's Open Letter says the same thing (but with less detail).

I'll wait until Sept. If it looks like newer units are more reliable, then I'll make the jump, because the game library is too good to be ignored. :)

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[MajinBlayze]

I was just shy of being a hardcore gamer in High School and my first few years of college. Then I got married, started a full time job, while continuing college, and almost completely stopped gaming. I picked up WoW for a while, but found that I just couldn't keep up. What I liked most about WoW was adventuring with old friends, but if I couldn't keep up with them, I couldn't join them, so there was no point. I was just short of lvl 60 when the expansion came out, and gave up.

Now as i near graduation from school, I'm interested in getting back into gaming (a little). I liked the Xbox. I liked the looks of the 360, particularly Forza2 (loved Forza when it first came out). However, there are 3 things stopping me from buying one:

1. price: the elite is prohibitively expensive, and I never did like messing with memory cards (the reason I never bought a playstation despite their heavy collection of RPGs)
2. micropayments: If I buy a game, especially for $50-$60, I want everything for the game. I don't want to have to continue to buy little "extras".
3. Reliability: I don't want to spend that kind of money for a system that just won't hold up.

overall, I might have overcome the first two problems with all of the other things that the xbox can do, but the reliability is a deal breaker. Now, I've put it off long enough, and have a little girl on the way, I might be looking at the Wii, or Nintendo's next generation console.
that's probably a few grand that Microsoft will never see, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[Shados]

Thats good news, because indeed, the games are hard to pass up. I'm a Wii guy, but i'm not going to ignore the gems that are popping up on the 360.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[LKM]

No, it doesn't help consumers, it harms them. Here's some economics.

Sometimes, the lenght some people will go to to rationalize the fact that they're being raped by the people they voted for just astonishes me.

If Wal-Mart was so bad, it would go out of business in the city

Wow. Just... wow. If you really believe that, you're either insane or suffering from severe cognitive dissonance.

Your nanny state has taken this freedom to choose away from the individual.

Yeah. I'm not free because I don't have to worry that an accident will fuck my financials up for the rest of my life. I'm not free because I don't have to worry that I'm stuck with a broken 360 that MS won't replace. I'm... aw, forget it. Why am I even talking to you? You're not interested in discussing this. You're just being a stupid, insulting asshat.

Have a nice day.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[MrHanky]

Norway is expensive, but it's also a far richer country than USA. In terms of purchasing power parity, it's also better off than USA. In the end, all you've got is a bunch of nice economic ideology contradicted by hard data.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[personman21]

I bought one of the first PS2s, so did 6 of my friends. We all had the dreaded "disk read error." We all sent ours in for repair, out of warranty. Sony did the same thing, 'repaired' each of them for free (less shipping). The only difference here is that Sony didn't come out publicly like Microsoft is doing. Oh by the way, I sent mine in 3 times and finally sold the repaired console and swore off Sony products.

Re:Bravo Microsoft

[mink]

Of the 12 models of Cylo^H^H^H^HPS2 every one I heve ever cracked open to fix (usually laser related issue)had only one fan at the rear of the unit. So the slim PS2 is passive only?

Well...

[cromar]

It's not surprising. What is it with all the new consoles having so many hardware problems? Oh yeah... the bling $$$ bling.

Heh. My NES / SNES still work fine ~15 years later. Hell, even my SMS is fine!

Re:Well...

[Otter]

What is it with all the new consoles having so many hardware problems?...Heh. My NES / SNES still work fine ~15 years later.

Because there was no Internet back then* for you to hear about isolated cases of hardware failure. If someone's NES burned up, he went back to Woolworth's or whatever they had back then, got a new one and complained to his buddies. Now, consoles come out and the most freakish problems (hurling your Wiimote through the TV screen, for example) gets spread worldwide.

* Yes, I know that there actually was an Internet back then, with at least 11 users.

Re:Well...

[WMD_88]

Your NES still works fine? Lucky you. Most NES units have faulty cart connectors, due to a design defect. Mine is near impossible to fire up...the best solution I found so far is to insert the cart, press down all the way, and then wedge a Game Boy Pocket (?!?!) in between, holding it all the way down. Press Power, then Reset.
The SNES has no such problems and very well should last until now, at least.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had success in maintaining/repairing NES systems by taking them apart and unbending and cleaning the contacts that are supposed to contact the cartridge so that they get a firm, clean contact between system and cartridge. Your mileage may vary, but pretty much all NES systems I've seen are pretty easily repairable and will work correctly with a few repairs and cleaning.

Re:Well...

[brkello]

So does my Sony Walkman...what's your point? Disc readers are a lot more fragile...should be fairly obvious.

Re:Well...

[despisethesun]

That was actually the reason behind the redesigned NES that came out towards the end of the console's life (that and milking it for everything it was worth). The original Famicom and the NES 2 were top-loaded and didn't suffer the same problems.

Re:Well...

[LKM]

No, that's actually not the reason. The reason is optical drives. Go to a garage sale. You'll see countless N64s, but you almost never see PS1s. Why is that? Because PS1s break easily, while N64s don't break at all. I own dozens of consoles, some of them over 20 years old. Not a single one of them has ever had any kind of issue, except one of the Dreamcasts; I never bought a PS1 or a PS2.

My original Pong still works. VCS 2600? Still works. NES, SNES, Turbografx, all still work.

Nothing to do with the Internet. It's the moving parts that make consoles prone to breaking. Except with the 360: That's just bad engineering.

Re:Well...

[donaldm]

Still got my PS1 and it still works although I hardly use it since all my PS1 games work on my PS3. I can even use my PS1 dual shock controller but I prefer the 6 axis one although for rumble if supported on the PS1 or PS2 game I would use the dual shock (PS1 or PS2). Even though my N64 still works I find that the controllers are IMHO horrible and one of our controllers has an issue with it's analog stick. I still have my original SNES but some of my sons friends thought it would be fun to take a hammer to the controller (boy was I pissed).

Re:Well...

[Phisbut]

Mine is near impossible to fire up...the best solution I found so far is to insert the cart, press down all the way, and then wedge a Game Boy Pocket (?!?!) in between, holding it all the way down. Press Power, then Reset.

Here's a DIY more permanent solution.

Re:Well...

[fattmatt]

* Yes, I know that there actually was an Internet back then, with at least 11 users.

True, the NES/SNES years would coincide with Al Gore's congressional service (1985-1993) which we all know is when he invented the internet. I'm guessing those 11 users where on a prototype internet of some sort. Sorry folks, I couldn't find a Wiki article to link for proof.

Re:Well...

[cromar]

My point is "they don't make 'em like they used to."

Re:Well...

[jandrese]

I'm surprised your NES still works. The cartridge slot on those big brick models was notorious for wearing out after a few thousand cycles (repeated inserts and ejects eventually bent the contacts enough to where they would no longer make a solid connection). Do you have one of those late model top loading NES boxes? The SNES corrected this problem and as you mentioned a great many of them still work today.

Optical drives are defiantly a weak point. Fans are another weakness. Moving parts are always the first things to wear out. That's why those old consoles are so reliable, they don't have moving parts (except for the aforementioned NES cartridge slot).

I have to admit, I sometimes wonder how much data you could fit on an economically priced ROM Cart these days? I mean flash memory (which is admittedly a different technology altogether) is in the 2GB range for $10 these days. While that's a lot more than you pay for 2GB on a DVD (where each unit literally costs you a couple of cents to manufacture), it is getting big enough for a lot of current games. The big catch will always be the crazy RPG market that wants to swap disks with DVDs already. Nobody wants to make another N64.

Re:Well...

[cromar]

I'm surprised your NES still works.

Everyone in this thread has damaged theirs... I have the front loading model, but I guess I took better care of my NES than most people :)

There's obviously something to be said about more fragile parts, but I expect things I buy to not break within 2-3 years. Carts were state-of-the-art once, just as optical drives are now. Plus, it's only fair to expect that something I pay hundreds of dollars for won't be broken within a month, or even before I open the box.

Re:Well...

[jandrese]

It's not like the people in this thread were jamming PB&J sandwiches in there or dropping the thing. Normal insert and ejects eventually kill those old NES boxes. If you liked to leave on game in there and play just that, then you would get more life. If you were like me and were always switching out games (I had a brother and a sister with different tastes, one of their games was always in there), or you were the kind of person who pulled the game out when you were done with it and put it back in the sleeve, then your NES probably requires repair if you want to use it today.

To be fair though, this can be repaired relatively easily (although each time you repair it the system will wear out a bit faster next time) and if it comes down to it, you can buy replacement connectors online (but you have to soldier it on yourself).

Oh, I always heard that if you rented games that it would foul up the connectors on your NES. I never really understood why (the implication is that everybody else's NES was filthy, but from what I saw most of them were in about the same shape as mine--although some kids pulled the doors off of theirs, which always bugged me because it was so ugly with the door off).

Re:Well...

[WMD_88]

Those instructions are a bit vague. I gave it a quick shot but couldn't figure out which pins it says need to be bent back, or which way "back" was. Perhaps it was because I couldn't get the connector detatched from the motherboard...I'm not very good at hardware hacking. :(

A $1 BILLION DOLLAR cost?

[nweaver]

Assuming they just do full replace and junk, and pay full retail price, that is >2.5 MILLION failed X-Boxes in the next 2 years. Assuming each repair costs Microsoft only $200, they are budgeting for 5 MILLION failed x-boxen!

With only 11 million X-boxen shipped, that 33% failure rate is sounding like an UNDERCOUNT!

Re:A $1 BILLION DOLLAR cost?

[mediamonkey]

Actually, it is almost EXACTLY that much - according to the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6275728.stm

Re:A $1 BILLION DOLLAR cost?

[fermion]

I sm sure that it is just more creative accounting. $250 million in real costs, $750 million in manufactured expenses, all deducted from the tax bill. At the end of the day, this recall may actually prove to be a profit center, courtesy of the american tax payer.

Re:Still, they break.

[ObiWanStevobi]

Perhaps offtopic, but...
They don't appear to repair 360s. I had a DVD drive failure and I got back a new console in just a couple days. Being in MN and sending it to Texas, there is no way they even had time to look at it to see what the problem was, they just send out a new one as soon a one comes in. Although I was very happy there was so little down time, I can't help but wonder why they would shell out a new console for what is likely a $15 repair. Even with labor, costs can't be that high. In my experience, disk drives don't seem to last much more than 3 years, if they are paying for a new console for every drive that fails in three years time, they are going to lose alot of money.

Re:Still, they break.

[stratjakt]

They dont shell out a new console, they ship you a refurbed unit.

Give them a CC# and they'll cross ship (send your refurbed unit out right now, before they recieve your return).

Then they fix yours, and put it in the pool to be sent to someone else.

It's how RMA's work.

Re:Still, they break.

[JamesRose]

Are you nuts? You have three choices, nintendo, which is completely different to the others, so the choice is gonna be on other things than reliability (I don't care how stable it is if it isn't fun for me, no purpose), xbox, which isn't good for reliability (not bad either though) is the midrange console, possibly even the safe option and when something does go wrong they are prompt to take it back and fix it, and finally the sony PS3, which isnt known for reliability either, and again is quite a large step up. With those big a differences, I don't think reliability should be an issue in you buying a console, as reliability still is good in all of them, even if it varies a little we're talking about small degrees. Secondly if you claim reliability is most important cos what's the use if it doesn't work- things get fixed, on the whole quite well, and what's the point of a console if it doesn't do what I want it to do in the first place, reliably useless is still useless.

Re:Still, they break.

[master0ne]

Eveything breaks... its a fact of life, from the space shuttle to the keyboard you typed your comment on... it all will eventually break. While the 360 did and may still continue to have quality control issues, its how the company handles the situation from that point thats importand, and recently MS have really impressed me with the way the handle most of the issues (with a few noted exceptions which any large company will have). Although they tried to supress the fact that they were having issues, they have now admited it, and in good faith. They extended the warranty to show good faith, not because they were obligated to, or had to.... infact many companys have problematic products still on shelves and refuse to service or extend the warranty once the issue becomes known... Just be glad you can get it fixed is what im trying to say here....


Hand some people free apples (free extended warranty), and they'll complain they havent been cored and seeded yet....

what about 4-red lights?

[MyDixieWrecked]

The 360 in my apt has 4 lights lit. It used to be 3, but it's since decided to light the 4th after I attempted the towel trick to fix it (the towel trick worked once, but the second time, it didn't work at all, and shortly after that, the 4th LED lit).

We'll have to call MS when I get home to see if that's covered.

with any luck, they'll cover it and we wont' have to shell out 150$

Re:what about 4-red lights?

[Spazmania]

I attempted the towel trick to fix it

The only "trick" is burning out the temperature sensors so it runs the fans faster without burning out anything else. You'd be better off just hotwiring the fans direct to the 12 volt supply so it can't attempt to moderate the fan speed.

Seriously, towel trick? You get the "I'm desperate and not too smart" award. I invented it today. Just for you.

Re:what about 4-red lights?

[MyDixieWrecked]

I know what it does.

When MS wants $150 that I don't have to repair the thing, it's worth a shot. It did fix it the first time for about 2 weeks (the unit has been out of the 1-year warranty for about 6 months).

Especially when a friend of mine did it and his 360 has been working fine ever since... it sucks it worked for him, who could've easily afforded fixing the device.

Re:what about 4-red lights?

[Stuart Gibson]

If it's four lights then it means the AV cable is disconnected or faulty.

Re:what about 4-red lights?

[Lost Engineer]

No cuz then MS will figure out that you opened the fucker, and they won't repair it. OTOH, they regularly replace overheated Xboxes.

Re:what about 4-red lights?

[Slashcrap]

I know what it does.

When MS wants $150 that I don't have to repair the thing, it's worth a shot. It did fix it the first time for about 2 weeks (the unit has been out of the 1-year warranty for about 6 months).

I do hope that the new extended warranty doesn't apply to people who put their hardware in a fucking oven.

I've got nothing against MS losing money, but stupidity isn't punished nearly enough in our society.

Yes, I'm sure it worked for a few people. I'm equally sure that twatting their console with a big hammer would have worked for some people as well, but if they'd put up a webpage about it and someone blindly copied them, that person would still be retarded.

this is amazing!

[SolusSD]

Its amazing when any big company willingly does something like this (without a class action, intense media coverage, etc). What is more amazing is its microsoft doing it. Guess they figure they can't afford to look bad at any level in such a high heat console war.

Re:this is amazing!

[jamesh]

It's not really that amazing... I can only assume that Microsoft have figured out that there will be a lot of repercussions of _not_ doing it (class action?), and have crunched the numbers and have figured out this is the best way forward.

The same situation has happened quite a few times previously, and i've often thought to myself that if the company in question had done something like this at the start, rather than waiting for a whole lot of bad press and legal costs, they would have saved themselves a lot of trouble.

Re:this is amazing!

[Velops]

What makes you think Microsoft wasn't under intense media scrutiny? The gaming press has been following the anecdotal evidence for months and it seemed to get worse as time went by. Gaming press outlets like 1up.com had Xbox 360s used to review games fail. Many stories about the quality of the Xbox 360 hardware were discussed here at Slashdot.

Dean Takahashi tried to get a straight answer out of a Tom Holmdahl in an interview about the failure rate and was summarily stonewalled at every turn. The European Commissioner of Consumer Affairs, Meglena Kuneva, was looking for grounds to take legal action against Microsoft for the Xbox 360 scratching discs due to a design flaw.

The situation just got bad enough that Microsoft was finally forced to respond before the bad publicity reached the point of no return.

Props for Owning Up

[ironwill96]

Regardless of your opinion of Microsoft, they have continually impressed me with their willingness (eventual) to own up to issues with the console and extend the warranty retro-actively. I just can't see Sony doing the same thing in this situation. I feel good knowing that if I get the red rings of death (my friend already had one bout with it), that they will pay for it since my console will still be good for several more years now.

Re:Props for Owning Up

[senatorpjt]

You know, you've made about 1000 comments in 360/PS3 related articles, why don't you just get an account?

Re:Props for Owning Up

[coop247]

I just can't see Sony doing the same thing Yeah, they wouldn't recall millions of batteries because of a small percentage of failures, oh wait....

Say what you will about Sony being overpriced, arrogant, evil, whatever, but when you buy a consumer electronics product (batteries not included) from them you can be confident that it will perform as expected and will last for a long time. I've had many Sony products over the years, TV's, CD players, receiver, PSP, PS1/2/3, Cameras, and have yet to have any one of them die. Heck, I'd bet dollars to donuts that if I root through my closet and find my 20 year old Walkman that it will still work.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[RamblinLonghorn]

And yet it still outsells its market competitor

Four choices

[MarkByers]

> You have three choices, nintendo ... xbox ... and finally the sony PS3,

You forgot one. There is the PS2 as well. It's a decent, fun system and you can still buy games for it. It's not to be totally ignored just yet.

Re:Four choices

[WasterDave]

Agreed. I don't know if it's on purpose or not but it's increasingly looking like the PS2 is Sony's best defence against the Wii. The PS3, ironically (after the delays) is beginning to look like a machine whose time has not yet come.

Re:Four choices

[ryanov]

Actually, I war surprised, but I just saw a commercial for what looked like new PS2 games coming out. I couldn't say what the games are, and I wouldn't know if they were actually new, but I the commercial sure made it seem like they were new.

Re:Four choices

[Perseid]

True, but unfortunately PS2s aren't exactly a paragon of reliability either.

Re:Four choices

[ryanov]

Nah, this ad I saw was literally last week... and it seemed like a list of 6 or 7 games that were coming out. I'm going to have to see if I can dig it up.

Re:Four choices

[ryanov]

Here's the list I was talking about:

http://ps2.gamezone.com/released/released.htm

Looks like the platform is still going strong.

Re:Four choices

[jandrese]

Of course the "slimline" PS2s you can buy now are known for their shoddy construction. Admittedly there isn't a lot of data on the last 4 or 5 revisions (they've been revising the design a lot), but the first 4 or so seem to fail fairly often based on online reports (which aren't the best measure, but they are the best measure available to the general public).

Re:They Still Haven't Fixed the Problem

[Shados]

Indeed. Im sure Microsoft would have quite a bigger market share if it wasn't for the hardware issues. I know I personally really want to play current and upcoming 360 games, but I hate dealing with customer services and repairs with a passion, so I'm not touching one until its semi-reliable. I doubt I'm the only one thinking that way.

Bravo???

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not saying that 3year warranty would be a bad thing, but seriously... Has there been any *good* on this year (or two) long episode. M$ should have acted a long time ago, and what they did was only unevitable since 360 users had been driven to point M$ was close to be massively sued..

Re:Still, they break.

[rbgaynor]

It would appear from the size of this charge to earnings ($1billion+) that the XBox reliability is considerably worse than average. Microsoft even called it "an unacceptable number of repairs to Xbox 360 consoles," marketing-speak for "Houston, we have a problem."

I can see it now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft officially apologizing for Vista and offering XP licenses to those unhappy with it. Meanwhile, they work on a new OS that will actually run on modern hardware.

Re:Still, they break.

[rbgaynor]

Quality control / reliability is the issue. How they handle it is at best damage control. The most they can hope for is people thinking "They really screwed the pooch there, but at least they agreed to adopt the puppies." As for stepping up with the warranty did they really step up or is this a preemptive step to avoid a large (and expensive) class action lawsuit.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[RamblinLonghorn]

I know I'm feeding a troll, but I'm bored, so here you go.

If by your logic, sales equals how the "gaming world" feels about the Xbox 360, what does this say about the PS3? Can you give less than a shit about something? In the last available figures (May 07), NPD has Xbox outselling PS3 by 2 to 1; the Wii outsells it by 4 to 1. This is NPD by the way; A non-biased, market research group.

Re:Still, they break.

[senatorpjt]

The only specific PS3 failure I've read about is where some guy put tape over the vent holes to "keep dust out."

Not that they don't happen, the widely quoted figures I've seen, Wii and PS3 failure rate was about 1%, compared to 30% for the 360.

4th 360 Here

[whodunnit]

First one died within 8 hours of purchase, RRoD. 2nd one died 8 months later RRoD, 3rd one died 6 months after that, cd drive crapped out.

Best Buy covered all 3 death's but the third one required me to blow 60 bucks on a new "Protection Racket".

So I'm covered for any more RRod's for 2 more years.. and my "Protection Racket" will cover me for at least one more dvd drive failure.

I refuse to spend any more on this system, so my only question left is how many more I'll have die on me before I'm out of freebies.

Re:4th 360 Here

[Jimmy King]

3rd one here. My first two I exchanged before they all out died, but they were both getting disc read errors regularly after only a couple of weeks. I couldn't play for 2 hours without a disc read error requiring me to reboot and had slow loading (in Oblivion the normally 1-2 second at most loading times that just say 'loading area' or whatever would take 30+ seconds, full loading screens 2-3 minutes at times) and jumpy video any time the disc had to be read.

Another friend of mine is on his 4th one for the same issues.

Another friend is also on his 3rd. Started out like mine, eventually wouldn't read any discs so he sent it in for repair. Got it back and got RRoD within a week. Sent it in again and got a refurb back.

I love the games on my 360 but damn, these things are crap. I'll probably pick up the improved model after they drop in price in a year or two as I really don't expect the current one to last more than a few years.

Re:4th 360 Here

[Ren.Tamek]

I think the real question is how many times are you going to let your electronics break before you demand a refund? Consumer rights are behind you on this one. Remember, capitalism doesn't work if you don't vote with your wallet, and vendors are going to keep fobbing you off with crap until you either move to a competitor, or stop buying the product completely. I'm not saying thats why every Microsoft product is so shoddy in at least one major area, but it's probably why every Microsoft product is still shoddy, even after months or years of sales and complaints.

WoW!!! That is a LOT of breakage...

[Fallen Kell]

Using their financial numbers as to the cost of extending the warranty to 3 years, MS themselves anticipates a full 3.8 million COMPLETE NEW replacement Xbox 360's to have to send out. That gives you an idea as to the failure rate they are seeing. This is at the current FULL RETAIL cost of the system and not using only repair costs. If it only costs $100 to repair, that would mean an anticipated 11.5 million failures during the 3 year warranty period.

Re:not that bad

[eln]

my 360 is actually very quiet (my PC is WAY louder with my 7 case fans) I'm sure what you're saying is valid, and I'm glad you're happy with your purchase. This line made me laugh though. Your PC has 7 case fans, which has to make it abnormally loud for a PC (my PC only has 3 case fans, and that's if you include the power supply fan as a "case fan"). This is like saying my car runs amazingly quiet because it isn't as loud as a 747.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[RamblinLonghorn]

Ok Gamasutra reporting the NPD numbers for May

May's NPD tally comes to 338,000 Wii, 155,000 Xbox, and 82,000 PS3.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[AuMatar]

Nope, its not outselling the wii. It has a higher marketshare due to a year more on shelves, but at this rate it'll be gone by years end.

Re:Still, they break.

[Darby]

MS have really impressed me with the way the handle most of the issues (with a few noted exceptions which any large company will have). Although they tried to supress the fact that they were having issues, they have now admited it, and in good faith. They extended the warranty to show good faith, not because they were obligated to, or had to....

If they initially lied about the issue and worked to cover it up, then *nothing* they subsequently do can be considered "in good faith".
They tried to scam people, got caught over a massive design failure, and are now doing damage control.

Good faith would have been noticing the issue first and working to ameliorate the damage they caused.
Going into damage control mode after being caught lying is not in any way "good faith".

It's amazing the shit people will willingly lap up these days. Truly bizarre.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[Anonymous Coward]

The most amazing thing to me is that according to these figures the PlayStation 2 sold 188,000 units during May So the old gen PlayStation outsells the nextgen Xbox 360 and the PS3.

Top selling hardware for may is:

DS 423,000
Wii 338,000
PSP 221,000
PS2 188,000
Xbox 155,000
PS3 82,000
GBA 80,000

Even funnier. Handhelds are more popular then the big nextgen wonders.

Re:not that bad

[Kaenneth]

I think using a domestic vacuum cleaner on electronics is a bad idea, I've heard they generate a bit of static electricity...

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[RamblinLonghorn]

Point taken. I think the PS2 outselling the PS3 is still the greatest evidence that Sony priced themselves out of competition.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[RamblinLonghorn]

You're right of course, I just pit Sony and Microsoft against each other because that's what this particular AC is thinking about.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[RamblinLonghorn]

The PS3 is selling at a rate that is right between the first Playstation and PS2..

That would be fine and dandy, if the market was a static, fixed, number of customers. 82,000 units in a month in todays market stinks. I agree with you that the PS3 is a marvelous piece of technology. The games look beautiful, and a few of them are probably pretty fun. It may even catch on and get back into competitiveness, but in my opinion, based on the NPD numbers and daily press stories, I wouldn't bet on it.

All the games people are going out to buy for the PS2 will run on their PS3s, all the franchises they are buying at a faster rate than the 360 are getting next gen sequels on the PS3. Developers who seven to eight years ago started working on PS2 engines are still being able to leverage that technology they created years ago in the giant and still expanding PS2 market.

Which means they (consumers and developers) will not be spending their money on PS3 related products. Just by looking at the wii versus gamecube, you can see an advantage in not having two product lines in the same market. The Wii is near enough in price to the Gamecube, that it is easy to justify shelling out the extra $150 or so to get the wii. Developers, who shunned the wii for the most part, now see the success of the Wii (in large part due to pricing and timing) and are scrambling to divert money to wii related projects. Unless you expect the ps2 to be there in another 7 years, and the NPD numbers show the PS2 under 200,000 for the first time since initial launch, you have to get the consumers and developers on the newer technology.

this is awesome

[Satanboy]

I'm so glad I didn't buy that warranty extension.

I wonder how those that paid 150 bucks for the extended warranty from different companies feel about this?

Re:this is awesome

[JFMulder]

150 bucks??? I don't know. Microsoft offers a "two extra year warranty" for 60CAN$ and Future Shop did so for the same price. Anyone paying more than that is getting screwed. And in the case of the Microsoft warranty, I hear it's renewable, so before expiry, you can renew it.

Microsoft NEEDED to do this? No.

[avoisin]

I work for a high tech company that makes expensive hardware, far pricier than the xbox, and I've come to understand a lot more about the cost of warranties from the supplier end. Extending warranties is essentially a loss for the the manufacturer - you're essentially betting when what you made will fail. That's weighed against the cost of making more durable components and the cost that a customer would not buy your product in the first place.

When the 360 first came out, someone made a decision that beyond one year it would cost the company too much to repair the consoles relative to the increased sales than would be had by having a longer warranty. They also had to take into account the bad publicity that could (and did) occur.

I'll be pure engineer here - someone at Microsoft redid the formula, given the knowledge of failures that have happened since release. This time around, the math said that enough future sales would be lost to outweigh the cost of extending the warranty. It's really that simple. It's also interesting to note here that they didn't make it a lifetime warranty (20 years or something). They probably ran that formula too, and decided that the math tips the other way if you let it last forever.

So did they NEED to do this? If by need you mean "saving face", then no. Being the retrospective hero doesn't help anything, only in the sense that it might affect future sales.

Re:Still, they break.

[xero314]

less than 1 percent...That would mean... 1 in 100... Um. actually that would mean less than 1 in 100. That could be as low as say 1 in 1000, or 1 in 10000, or even 1 in a million.

Re:Still, they break.

[MeanMF]

Because of DRM issues they stopped doing that a while ago. Now they make an effort to return your repaired box to you. If it's broken beyond repair, only then do you get a refurb.

Re:Still, they break.

[xero314]

All consumer electronics have a failure rate. And that rate goes to 100% as time goes on. It's a matter of how quickly that rate becomes 100%. I would say supporting a company that makes products with a high failure rate would make you the moron.

What if you already paid for the MS warranty?

[pozitron969]

Is there any information about customers who have purchased an extended warranty from MS? (as I did after a RRoD prompted a replacement, and my 1 year retroactive warranty was about to expire) Any guesses as if that part of the "repair costs" that they indicated would be refundable?

Re:They Still Haven't Fixed the Problem

[heinousjay]

The fact that the 360 is number 1 in North America must burn your anonymous bunghole something fierce, since it prompts you to post silly flames over and over. Sorry dude.

Question

[Guppy06]

I've recently had problems with the USB ports on my PS3, but Sony won't touch it for free since I no longer have my receipt (nevermind that it's impossible for the warranty to have expired by now; I guess the policy saves them some money). So with Microsoft retroactively extending the warranty like this, what happens to those people who voided their warranty, thinking that it was expired?

Re:Question

[immcintosh]

This seems like a job for small claims court if you actually have the time and motivation. I doubt any judge would buy that kind of bullshit when it's theoretically impossible for any PS3 sold yet to have fallen out of the manufacturer warranty. Would probably be quite handily won by you... probably be able to get court expenses and *maybe* even some punitive damages out of them for acting in such obviously bad faith.

Re:Question

[SacredByte]

If you can't find your original receipt, go back where you purchased it and they will usually just print you out a fresh copy.

Re:Question

[Breakfast Pants]

Yet another reason not to shop at a mom and pop store.

Re:Question

[Guppy06]

I paid in cash.

Little to do with a lawsuit.

[Panzergheist]

To be honest, I'm somehow certain that this has far less to do with any possible class action lawsuit, and far more to do with the potential for disgruntled gamers jumping ship to Sony. That, I believe, is what would make Microsoft stay awake at night. They didn't do much of anything until gamers started posting online, "F@$# it! I'm getting a PS3!"

And that matches Microsoft's past behavior in every market that they eventually come to dominate. They don't act upon problems until there are customer rumblings of using alternatives.

Owning Up?

[Nazmun]

IF any other manufacturer had a defect rate of 30% (slightly above that according to the largest game retailer there is, being EB) mostly due to heating dissipation design and were getting as many complaints as they were I don't see any other choice. The press has gotten really bad in the last month or so on this issue.

Had they not made this press release, it would have probably adversely affected sales.

Microsoft Calculates Real Cost, Extends Warranty

[ozphx]

Bravo to a good business decision.

Someone has run the numbers of the amount of money they are losing due to poor rep and compared it to the cost of extending the warrenty period. They clearly found that extending the warrenty would
* make people feel more comfortable about their purchase.
* keep some more people with an xbox to buy games.

They aren't doing this because xboxes are failing left right and center. They are doing it because their failure rate is low enough that they know it won't send them broke.

A Very Nice Move

[krisamico]

I got my 360 shortly after its initial release, and I put a lot of hours on it (especially in the first year -- not so much this year); for the years that I had it, it was rock solid, and I think it's been a great console. As it turns out, it finally died a month ago and I was disappointed to find that it was out of warranty... Until now. This warranty extension will mean a lot to me, and I am very grateful to MS for having put it in action. Thanks, guys!

Re:A Very Nice Move

[Zelos]

You're grateful to Microsoft for selling you an unreliable console that breaks after a year and a half? Are you stupid?

Re:A Very Nice Move

[krisamico]

So I suppose folks think I am supposed to be outraged. I guess I am not. My experience with MS has been generally good and I am grateful they are extending my warranty. If my box gets fixed properly I will go back to playing it and not give the matter another thought. If they bungle the repair, and I have been hearing quite a bit about this lately, then I may start to get upset. Until things like that happen, I generally do not act like a manufacturer owes me a personal apology when their product breaks.

Re:not that bad

[bigstrat2003]

That's not necessarily true. As I recall, the PowerMac G5 has case fans all over the damn place, but they all run very slowly. It's been a few years since I've opened one of those things up, but that's what I remember from the ones I used to work with. Now, the PowerMac G5 does get ridiculously loud when you pop open the panel... must be a sensor there or something.

The kiss of death

[fwarren]

I don't really care about any other games. My Wii is extremely fun right now.

This is exactly what Microsoft wants to hear right now

Re:Still, they break.

[LKM]

Not sure why you got modded flamebait. It's true. Extending the warranty is not enough. Actually, they don't need to extend the warranty, they need to fix the hardware so it doesn't break anymore. I don't want to pay for an Xbox replacement in one year, and I don't want to pay in three years, and I don't want to pay in five years, and I still want to use my Xbox in 10 years when I can't pay even if I want to.

For heaven's sake, my VCS 2600 still works as well as the day it came out the box. I have a Pong, and it still works as well as the day it came out. And I still hook them up from time to time! There's no reason why all these 360s should die so easily, and if I want to play a little Crackdown 10 years from now, I should be able to.

Don't be so forgiving!

[LKM]

I'm astonished to read so many "mine is okay, except a game doesn't work" or "no problem so far, only a broken dvd drive" comments. Don't be so forgiving! This is a game console, not a PC. There's no reason why it should break within such a short timespan! I've bought dozens of consoles, and all of them still work. Some of them are over 20 years old!

Re:Don't be so forgiving!

[ObiWanStevobi]

Game Console or PC, a DVD Drive is still a DVD drive with a different face plate. Especially since they sold me the hardware below cost, I'm willing to cut them some slack. As far as a game not working, I'd be pretty bummed, but it's never been an issue. I've had drives go out on the PS2, Xbox, 360, and several on PCs. I guess I've been in IT long enough not to expect any drive to last more than a few years, even less for the cheap ones.

Re:Don't be so forgiving!

[B1]

Game Console or PC, a DVD Drive is still a DVD drive with a different face plate. Especially since they sold me the hardware below cost, I'm willing to cut them some slack.

Why? You paid $300+ for it. Who cares what it cost *them*? If they sold it to you below cost, why does that entitle them to any more leniency on your part? Are they doing you a favor that way, or does the low cost mean that you owe *them* a favor?

Would you be harder on them if it only cost them $100 to make the 360?

Re:Don't be so forgiving!

[LKM]

Game Console or PC, a DVD Drive is still a DVD drive with a different face plate.

So? You only use it to play DVDs which are (probably) manufactured by or to the specs of the manufcaturer of your console. It's not like a PC where you constantly put all kinds of burned and questionable CDs and DVDs inside. And even on a PC, I expect the DVD drive to last until I replace the PC, which is at least 3 to 4 years.

Especially since they sold me the hardware below cost

How does that matter? I look at a console and judge its value. I expect the thing to behave like a console, not like a cheap-ass PC I built from parts I found in the dumpster at radioshack.

As far as a game not working, I'd be pretty bummed, but it's never been an issue. I've had drives go out on the PS2, Xbox, 360,

I own a bunch of Cubes and three Dreamcasts. One DC died, all the other ones still work perfectly well. Yes, the PS2 had some pretty damn crappy hardware issues, but that's no reason to accept the same shit from other consoles and manufacturers.

and several on PCs.

And if the DVD drive in your PC dies, you go out, buy a new one for a few bucks, and you're back in business. Try that with a 360. Try getting your 360 fixed in 10 years.

I guess I've been in IT long enough not to expect any drive to last more than a few years, even less for the cheap ones.

My very first CD burner was a yamaha 4x scsi drive. I bought this sucker more than 10 years ago, and to this day, it works. There's no reason why DVD drives have to be shit, especially not if they're used in a console where you can't just replace them.

Re:Don't be so forgiving!

[Cecil]

My very first CD burner was a yamaha 4x scsi drive. I bought this sucker more than 10 years ago, and to this day, it works. There's no reason why DVD drives have to be shit, especially not if they're used in a console where you can't just replace them.

4x does not put quite the same stress on the drive than 52x does. High performance parts are generally high maintenance.

Re:Don't be so forgiving!

[LKM]

4x does not put quite the same stress on the drive than 52x does

And yet it was the high-end device at the time, and it was a writer, not only a reader. I see no reason why a DVD reader manufactured in 2007 should be of worse quality than a CD burner manufactured a decade ago.

Re:Don't be so forgiving!

[moloko_synthemesc]

Agreed. We really do seem to be entering the Age of Lowered Expectations. However, I'd say there's no reason for PC components to fail all that frequently either. I've had a few bad parts (infamous IBM Deathstar and a Yamaha CD burner) that only lasted a year or so, but for the past 8+ years the systems in my home have otherwise been trouble free. Then again, I build all the systems we use. Name brand PC makers have always used the cheapest, sorriest components they can find.

Re:Still, they break.

[king-manic]

For heaven's sake, my VCS 2600 still works as well as the day it came out the box. I have a Pong, and it still works as well as the day it came out. And I still hook them up from time to time! There's no reason why all these 360s should die so easily, and if I want to play a little Crackdown 10 years from now, I should be able to.

Don't worry, there will be a 20%-30% chance the Xbox 720 will be Backwards compatible with it and Microsoft will replace it as often as you like for a certain period. And then it's a brick.

I think it's somewhat unrealistic to expect hardware to last forever but 30% fail rate is ridiculous.

Re:Still, they break.

[Rev Fulton O Dollar]

*dusting off the account* Actually, this 360 owner was a PS2/GC fanboy and XBox disser readying himself for a PS3 when suddenly... 599 US DOLLARS! One CompUSA going out of business sale later, and I got a 360 for less than half that. So much for my Playstation loyalty. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the only ex-PS2 fan in this boat either. Still want to get a Wii too. Just a matter of hitting Target at the right time to find one...

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[Rev Fulton O Dollar]

Developers who seven to eight years ago started working on PS2 engines are still being able to leverage that technology they created years ago in the giant and still expanding PS2 market. That's all fine and dandy, but what about the PS3 market? Sony has made it clear that manufacturing prices for the PS3 are on target to reach break even at the one year point just like they did with the PS2. That's all fine and dandy too, but when will the PS3 take the 40%+ markdown so that it can actually start to compete with its lower-priced competitors? The PS3 is selling at a rate that is right between the first Playstation and PS2. That's all fine and dandy as well (if true), but that was when the Dreamcast was imploding and Nintendo was fumbling with the Gamecube. This is now where the 360 is an established competitor, the Wii is blowing everyone away, and handhelds are more of a market presence. The relevant question: Was the PS2 as far behind the PS1 in sales eight months in, as the PS3 is behind the PS2 now? Sorry, but trying to spin the amazing PS2 sales as anything but extraordinarily positive for Sony is just silly. "Extraordinarily positive?" Their last-gen system is still outselling their next-gen system, while the other two next-gen systems are also beating said next-gen's shiny black exhaust port. Yeah, Sony's still making cash on the PS2, but that system's into the fourth quarter and there ain't no overtime in this game. If you think Sony's situation is "extraordinarily positive", the Bush Administration has a PR job waiting for you in Iraq.

Microsoft Knew and Denied

[egNuKe]

http://www.megagames.com/news/html/console/microso ftconfessandfixrrodepidemic.shtml has gone all the way to say: [quote]Some people would believe that Microsoft have just discovered the issue and fixed it, as expected from a reputable multinational company. But when asked, Robbie Bach, president of Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices Division for a "little over first year" the "set of issues wasn't visible at all," but during the last couple of months the company has seen "significant increases, significant call volume, and significant attention" to the problem. During those "couple of months" Microsoft actively denied the problem several times. [/quote]

Re:Still, they break.

[Velops]

Is it too much to ask for a $499 console to stay functional during an entire console cycle when subjected to reasonable use?

Corporate Maturity?

[Unclescar]

I'm actually fairly impressed that MS have finally decided to be mature about this problem and put a damage control system in place. Surely with their acceptance that they have a QA problem they will seriously invest in a solution to the ongoing hardware problems a select group of users have encountered. Thus far (touch wood) I've had no issues other than the occasional crash with my launch day 360! Thankfully this extended warranty period now gives me some piece of mind that I'm covered in the event of something going wrong.

Re:Microsoft NEEDED to do this? No.

[Velops]

The formulas used to calculate warranties are meant to cover manufacturing errors. Every once in a while, a defective unit will get past quality control in the factory due to human error. The warranty is designed to protect customers if they get one of these units.

The "Red Ring of Death" is likely from a design flaw, not a manufacturing error. A manufacturing error would not account for the abnormal failure rate. It is literally built into every unit that leaves the factory. The only long-term solution to a design flaw is a product recall.

Extending the warranty is just a temporary solution because Xbox 360s will continue get the "Red Ring of Death".

Re:Still, they break.

[LKM]

For heaven's sake, my VCS 2600 still works as well as the day it came out the box. I have a Pong, and it still works as well as the day it came out. And I still hook them up from time to time! There's no reason why all these 360s should die so easily, and if I want to play a little Crackdown 10 years from now, I should be able to. Don't worry, there will be a 20%-30% chance the Xbox 720 will be Backwards compatible with it and Microsoft will replace it as often as you like for a certain period. And then it's a brick.

Actually, it's more likely that they'll get out of the console business entirely, or have fucked up backwards compatibilitity like the 360's.

I think it's somewhat unrealistic to expect hardware to last forever but 30% fail rate is ridiculous.

I don't expect it to last forever. I just expect it to last longer than a few years.

Thats coz 50% are dead.

[cheekyboy]

I bet thats only because lots of geeks buy two, and that MS dumps 100000s in landfill because they are unrepairable. (at least the dead MBs)
11m sold, but I bet at least 3m are dead, 5m seconds.

We need greenpeace on them too

[cheekyboy]

11m xbox360s, make X heat every day = billions of tonnes of C02. Evil MS!!!

Re:Still, they break.

[donaldm]

Don't think you deserve "flamebait". I would not like the annoyance of sending my console away for repair either (once inconveniently acceptable but more then that no way). Of course any mechanical device will eventually fail as will any electronic device although this will normally take longer.

Taking game controllers for example. I have always been impressed with Nintendo (SNES, N64 and Gamecube), Sega and even Sony controllers since I would expect a life of no more than a few hundred hours but all of the controllers I own still work well after years of use. I have found that I prefer to pay for the genuine controller even though it is more expensive since all my third party controllers failed after about 50 hours of use. The exception being my wireless dual shock from Logitech (excellent product which works well on my PS3). I can't comment on the reliability of the Microsoft controllers although I do have a wireless Microsoft mouse that I find very reliable.

All Manufacturer's when they make a product allow for approx less than 1% (usually a lot less) failure in the first year and hopefully less then 10% over 5 years although this does depend on the product. If any company wants the customer to purchase their products then those products must be seen as reliable hence they invest in quality control and use statistical analysis to extrapolate reliability since failures must be taken into account when setting the price of a product. This is standard business practice and even a 2% to 3% failure rate over a year is unacceptable.

It appears that Microsoft has not even taken into account Manufacturing reliability testing 101 and IMHO have appeared to treat their console the same way they treat their software, however having a failure rate of over 10% is ridiculous (over 30% is insane) no company except Microsoft could afford this type of failure rate, in fact a failure of this scale would drive most companies out of business. One billion dollar my be small change to Microsoft but it is still a considerable amount of money that must leave many share holders fuming.

Granted that Microsoft is now offering a three year warranty although I am not sure if this is on the full Xbox360 package but it is very annoying if you keep having to send your machine in for repair or swap. Eventually you are going to loose customer confidence and they will go elsewhere.

I realise that this may seem strange to some but many customers' do want reliable products and are willing to pay for them. An extended warranty is peace of mind but only if a product is perceived as reliable in the first place. When you are still paying a reasonable sum of money for an Xbox360 you would like it to last more than three years. On a PC a three year lifetime may be acceptable but on a console it is not.

Missing the point

[coop247]

Many people are really missing the bigger point here. This is like Hyundai offering a 10 year warranty on their cars. They are basically saying that the product you are buying is poorly designed/built and will fail.

Some people mistakingly think that Hyundia is offering a great deal without considering the cost of this arrangement. Sure, they fix whats broke, but what about the cost of getting it fixed, such as the day of vacation you had to burn when your car died, the tow truck to get your car to the garage, the time/hassle of arranging the service, the cost of the rental car you had to get while your car was in the shop for a week.

Add up all of these "hidden costs", and you could have just gone out and purchased a superior product in the first place.

These hidden costs are in this "great deal" from MS. What about the time you spend reporting the problem, unhooking and packaging it, the gas/time taking it to the post office. What about the 2-4 weeks you are without the 360, not only can you not play games, but you can't play movies or stream music.

Remember that cost includes a lot more than the price you initially paid, the most important of which is your ability to use the product.

Next up: Fanboy retraction?

[ivan256]

This is a huge turnaround for Microsoft, and what many people were waiting for (this, and evidence that they've actually solved the problem) to purchase a 360.

However, are we now going to get the much desired retraction from all the 360 fanboys who's anecdotal evidence "proved" that this problem wasn't widespread, or are we going to have to be satisfied with the usual semi-collective "I told you so"?

Microsoft is claiming this is going to cost them over a billion (1.15) dollars. If you assume that 300 mil is used for administrative fees, and you divide by the approximate manufacturing costs of the unit, you get something like 2.66 million 360s that they're planning on replacing. Basically a third of all the 360s sold to end users to date. Fun!

Re:Still, they break.

[MonoSynth]

At least Dutch (or European?) law states that 'durable products' should last for at least three years. No matter what the manufacturer states, the mandatory warranty period is therefore three years (you're not able to claim it without a lot of hassle, though).

I guess it's fair to take the failure rate within those three years for an indication of durability. It *is* troublesome that a product that's been released a year and a half ago already has a 30% failure rate, especially when you take into account that the majority of xbox360's are actually less than one year old.

Re:Microsoft NEEDED to do this? No.

[tb()ne]

I'll be pure engineer here - someone at Microsoft redid the formula, given the knowledge of failures that have happened since release. This time around, the math said that enough future sales would be lost to outweigh the cost of extending the warranty. It's really that simple. It's also interesting to note here that they didn't make it a lifetime warranty (20 years or something). They probably ran that formula too, and decided that the math tips the other way if you let it last forever.

I don't think it's really that simple. Consider, from a non-engineering perspective:

1. MS could have soon been facing a class action suit regarding defects in the 360.
2. E3 is just around the corner.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[tepples]

Crappy graphics - Halo 3 and Forza 2 - YEECH! Is Wii any better?

Can't handle 1080p for real games Neither can Wii.

Smaller than last gen storage format - only 7 gigs of space versus 8 gigs last gen Last gen was 1.2 GB, no bigger than a Dreamcast GD-ROM.

No BluRay playback for 1080p HD movies PS3 doesn't have HD DVD playback for 1080p HD movies either.

Re:An Utter Train Wreck

[tepples]

Even funnier. Handhelds are more popular then the big nextgen wonders. You left out Pocket PC, Microsoft's handheld platform. Compare that to Xbox 360.

Re:Still, they break.

[antek9]

Or 599 EUROS even. Nevertheless, if the current console wars do justify one saying, then it must be this: You get what you pay for.

Right now, you got three choices:
1. low specs, good quality, decent QA
2. high specs, defective design, lousy QA
3. high specs, decent quality, decent QA.

The choice is yours, obviously, and consumers are better informed after MS stopped denying the problem even existed, hopefully.

Re:Still, they break.

[master0ne]

in any large company today, the first knee jerk reaction to the statment of fact that they have a issue with a product will be a knee jerk reaction from corperate "how dare you think our products are shitty" after the engeneers and customers can get the point accrost that its not that they think the product is "shitty" just that it has (in some cases serious) issues that need to be worked out, thats what defines weather its "good faith"... if i came into your place of buisness and accused you of under performing and all these mean nasty things, ofcourse your going to get defensive, but if i present facts to you that show that im right, you will start to agree. at that point the company (or you) should take steps to correct the problem, and move on. It would only be bad faith if the company (or you) continued denying the problem for a prolonged period after the facts all came to light. MS (and im no MS fanboy, look at my previous posts on other topics, and good karma) was probably waiting to get a solid fix for the problem, and confirm with the warranty reps that there was infact a problem before they pulled down their pants and beared it all so to speak... the point is, that they had a issue, they have admited it, and have extended a "fix" (extended warranty) to customers to show good faith... i would almost say its a safe bet that all the new machines comming off the line asof today will not have the problems the older ones had, as the time they were "denying" the problem they were also working on a fix... if as a large company i admit i have a issue, but no fix, consumers tend to get upset and distrust the company more than if they only admit theres a problem once they have the fix. You'll find this buisness practice in MANY large companys. Be glad that they have actually extended anything to the customers, as technically if the warranty epired, theres not much ground for the consumer to stand on legally to sue over (however IANAL) unless ofcourse the failure of the unit also caused collatral dammages, such as burning down a house, transforming into a deadly xbox terminator and wipeing out whole familys etc.... MS saw they were loosing customers over this, and once they had it all worked out, took steps to address the issue, and to retain their customers...

Re:Still, they break.

[Darby]

It would only be bad faith if the company (or you) continued denying the problem for a prolonged period after the facts all came to light.

A prolonged period like a year and a half? These issues existed prior to the initial launch.

the point is, that they had a issue, they have admited it, and have extended a "fix" (extended warranty) to customers to show good faith..

That is *not* showing good faith and that's not why they did it. They did it to avoid a massive class action lawsuit and bad publicity. They only admitted it *after* they were caught lying about it for well over a year. That is not in any conceivable way shape or form "good faith".

good catch

[nobodyman]

Good point. I don't see this mentioned very often. This was situation with my broken 360. When they sent me a replacement, none of my XBLA games would work unless I signed into Live. Very irritating when my internet connection dies and I want to pass the time with XBLA.

This is the same problem you face if you buy the 120GIG hard drive(or buy an elite) and transfer your content from an old hard drive.

Re: good catch...but...

[trdrstv]

Good point. I don't see this mentioned very often. This was situation with my broken 360. When they sent me a replacement, none of my XBLA games would work unless I signed into Live. Very irritating when my internet connection dies and I want to pass the time with XBLA.

This is the same problem you face if you buy the 120GIG hard drive (or buy an elite) and transfer your content from an old hard drive.

Correct except that last part. You will have NO DRM issues by transfering your content from a 20 gig HDD to the 120 gig. Buying the Elite is different as you are replacing the whole system. The System (and your gamertag) is what holds the license. As long as the "Core 360" is the same (Probably based on CPU Serial #), the game license stays.

Uh,I need to tell you something: I'm not Norwegian

[LKM]

You've been beat.

You know you've found a true loser if you find somebody who feels the need to preemptively declare himself the winner.

Your arguments - that this proves that laws are not good for consumers, or that something goes out of business if it s bad - are so utterly absurd that any reply to them is inherently unneccessary.

The best part, of course, is that I'm not even Norwegian. I'm Swiss. We have a direct democracy, which means our "nanny laws" were put in place by a vote of the people. Yeah, that's right, the people voted to have these "nanny laws." Where does that leave your "people choose something, so it must be good" theory? You think we are too stupid to make these decisions on our own?

Re:Uh,I need to tell you something: I'm not Norweg

[LKM]

You said you quit - but you came back to argue again.

Huh? I did not say I quit. I said I felt you did not want to discuss this, but only to insult me, which was why I felt there was no need to reply. However, you then raised some (barely) interesting points, which I felt I should address. But yeah, you're right, I better make an appointment with a shrink right away. Thanks for your diagnosis, you saved me from certain doom. By the way, switching your argument just to reply to another's argument, and faulty uses of reductio ad absurdum also seem pretty insane to me, so you might want to see your shrink, too.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? You seem way too angry, considering the fact that you live in your own little free market paradise. I suggest you get help instead of trolling /.

Microsoft claims they fixed the issue

[LKM]

More important than the warranty is, in my opinion, that Microsoft claims that they fixed the issue. I quote Peter Moore from an interview by N'Gai Croal:

We're making improvements to the console itself that will reduce the occurrence of these issues.

Not quite as reassuring as I would have liked, but still good to know.

It just hit me

[greylion3]

The Xbox 360:
A product that literally is 'defective by design' (although probably not intentionally, DRM aside).