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Motorists Sue Over 'Hot' Fuel
i_like_spam writes "Motorists in 13 states have filed lawsuits against big oil companies and gas retailers alleging unfair pricing practices related to fuel-pumping temperatures. From an industry standard developed in the 1920's, the price for a gallon of gasoline is based on the density of the fuel at a temperature of 60 degress F. A gallon of gas at higher temperatures is less dense, and therefore contains less energy. The lawsuits claim additional costs of 3 to 9 cents per gallon without temperature adjustments. The fuel industry claims that the costs of installing temerature-adjustment sensors on every pump would be prohibitively high. These sensors are already installed in Canada, however, where the colder temperatures favor consumers."
Because not only would they have to pay for the cost of the installation, but then they'd lose money due to the metering changes based on temperature. Then again, it's not like THEY pay for it. We do.
It might be the case where it really is prohibitively high, if it's the gas station owners that would be paying for it. They sell the gas at very thin margins, making more money on bags of chips and bottles of water.
Sure there's a small amount of gas (probably less than half a gallon) above ground in the pump that will warm and cool relatively quickly but since it is only half a gallon who really cares?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Just make the standard at 100F instead of 60F, then temperature sensors will be all the rage, as they apparently are in canada.
Seems to me all that would need to be added is a temperature sensor. Then all they would have to do is lower the cost of gas when the gas is significantly hotter than 60 degrees.
I grew up around big oil. Wells, refineries, etc. and I've heard this premise more than once. On the surface, it makes sense but it doesn't hold up in practice. There are really two problems with this theory:
1. (the most important) gasoline tanks are buried 10+ feet under ground. They don't experience the same temperature fluctuations that the surface does. The temperature of the tank can easily be 15-20 degree below ambient air temperature or more. Also, it doesn't fluctuate as much.
2. In the vast majority of the country, the *average* weather nullifies this. Even in Texas, where I grew up, a lot of the state averaged 40-50 for a few months out of the year. In New York, where I am now... the *average* daily temperature breaks 60 for a few months out of the year. Average is important. If it's only above 60, even 70, for a few hours out of the day that will have *no* effect on the tank which is sitting comfortably at 50 or so. So yes... a few months out of the year you're paying more for gas. But a few months out of the year your also paying *less* for gas and most of the time you're breaking even.
I can see this being a valid argument in AZ, Southern NV, AZ... places that are at 100+ right now. But everywhere else in the country it's just someone else trying to get something for nothing.
You also have to bear in mind that this is going to hurt the station owners, not the petroleum companies. In some cases the petroleum companies own your local gas station (usually only in high profit locations) but most of them are licensed by franchises (still private individuals) or independent owner/operators and they will end up eating the cost of the equipment. Not "big oil".
I'm not a shill and I actually don't care for big oil at all... but this is just a stupid lawsuit. Sue them for not pursuing alternative energy. Sue them for not upgrading to more efficient and clean refineries. Sue them for not managing their waste products.
This is just a petty waste of time and doomed to failure.
A free, competitive market is of no use to you if you don't compare prices. To compare prices, you need to know the volume of fuel sold as a "gallon".
Or, did you really mean to say, that it's great the oil company bothers to steal a penny a gallon from me, it implies that some other kind soul (Walmart ?) cares enough to toss a few cents my way every now and again ?
Yeah, it's too expensive because it would cost the oil companies a lot of money.
What they did there is pretty clever, eh?
But lets not waste time on all these diversionary tactics and go straight for what people really want: a per mile charge. Lets say that everyone jsut pays 25 cents for each mile they drive. This will save the junk-status american car company executive from having to come up with an original idea in exchange for their 8 figure incomes. The populous can get what it want, huge cars that they can't afford to maintain, and oil companies can get what they really want, direct huge no-string subsidies and the right to drill anywhere they want, also at the taxpayers expense.
Or we could just keep the entire thing simple. We could drive cars and distances that are within our means. The US congress could rescind the dole payments given to the oil companies by so-called conservative politicians. The added tax receipts could be used to hold down the deficiet instead of buying yachts and servants, servants, who, BTW, are evidently better paid than the average American, for the uber-wealthy. Really, in my dream world, we would not be owned by the Chinese, and have the ability to set trade policy on our own terms, and not fight these proxy battles to keep them from dumping out dollars of decreasing worth in favor of euros.
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The fuel industry claims that the costs of installing temperature-adjustment sensors on every pump would be prohibitively high. These sensors are already installed in Canada, however, where the colder temperatures favor consumers.
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We can offer better price and services as a single huge telecom monopoly, don't split us up! (we'll kinda merge later anyway)
Piracy causes tremendous losses to our industry! (we know this, since whatever our profits, we think they should've been 4 times that!)
People in the United States buy around 350,000,000 gallons of gas every day. Even if the temperature difference accounts for only one tenth of a percent, that's about 350,000 gallons a day. Or $1.1 million a day at $3.15 a gallon. Pocket change to an oil company, but most people would appreciate the slightly lower gas prices.
No. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion. There is no competition amongst oil producers, because OPEC controls a good 80+% of the supply. The competition only exists between different gas stations (although most of those are owned by OPEC puppets as well) where the small family owned gas stations (there are a couple out there) get squeezed for every last penny.
Great, so as a motorist, if I win as a member of this class action lawsuit, I'll maybe get a coupon for $5 of gas, while the lawyers will get tens of millions. I can't wait.
Actually I think people are. I know people who shop around for gas and pay attention to price differences that are only a few cents.
If you're filling up once or twice a week, it's possible for the seemingly small savings of a few cents a gallon to add up.
(Of course it's stupid to drive across town for gas that's only a few cents cheaper, but it's not stupid to notice gas that's cheaper and fill up if you're below 1/2 a tank or so whenever you see it and when time permits.)
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I'm I the only American on the planet rooting for higher gas prices in the US? Higher gas equals less SUVs and trucks which equals less congestion. I live in England now, and $7.50 gallon gas is the norm. Get over yourselves already America.
No, it's because the weight of the fuel is a significant factor in calculating the gross weight and the center of gravity of the aircraft.
Of course, their margins are already quite slim, and successful gas stations are not operated by fools. Therefore, if the cost of dispensing "One Temperature-Compensated US Gallon" rises above that of "One Old-School Volumetric US Gallon," then they'll just unilaterally increase prices to compensate, by whatever amount the market will bear.
Actually that makes you realise how absurd the complaint is. If you buy gas by volume don't complain that the mass of gas you get varies with temperature. That's just physics.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Tell you what, if you *truly* believe your arguments are sound, I'll sell you pound of gold (based on Jupiter's gravity), measured at prices defined against Earth gravity. You shan't complain because I'll sell the same amount of gold to someone else at Moon-measured pounds. And just to be fair, I'll measure the gold I sell you at a constant, "isojupiterpound" level. And even if you *do* think you still have grounds to complain, I'll remind you that there are other factors that will affect the value of the gold you're buying, not just the gravity I measure the pound against. Besides, you're buying by the pound, not the gram, and even if I get to choose the gravity, these measurements are all pounds, aren't they?
The sage advice has always been to buy gas before 10am. Of course, being forthrightly compensated for warmer less dense fuel would be better. As Michael Moore repeatedly suggests in his new movie - and this is rightly the subtitle of the movie - it's long overdue for Americans to be MORE like the French and make our government and corporations afraid of us rather than the other way around. It's the French (and Canadian)people screaming "Jump!", and the French guv'mint and big biz meekly asking, "How high?"
Sorry about the movie spoiler. Or not.
Because Hybrid technology will preserve, if not exaggerate, the number of larger vehicles on the road. GM is coming out with hybrid TAHOEs and other large vehicles. Not the fake hybrids of the previous generation but real hybrids.
As the tech advances even large vehicles will get better mileage than many midsize cars of these days and as such people will have even less inclination to buy a baby car.
Also, whats wrong with SUVs and trucks? Many familes can afford two cars and one has to pull double duty. Own a home and loading garden supplies into your civic isn't going to cut it. Want to pull a boat or trailer (we are allowed to go on vacations aren't we???) and your little car won't cut it.
Honestly all the SUV/Truck hate is misplaced. It comes down to perception, you only get to see how someone else uses a vehicle how much each day? 15 minutes or so on the expressway? So the wife/husband drives the SUV to work by themselves, when they get home its hauling kids, the dog, going on camping trips, taking the neighbors kids to the ball game, etc... you don't see that yet in your selfish world you still want to pass judgement.
Look, quit trying to guilt America. People like you need to GET OVER YOURSELVES. This is a free society and as such people should be free to do as they please provided it does not deprive another of life and liberty. Just because you cannot justify a SUV for yourself or someone else does not mean they cannot justify for themselves. They know their needs you do not.
So, grow up and realize you don't know everything, let alone everyone.
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But the price that the gas station charges is only slightly related to the cost of the fuel. The price of gas down the street is more likely to be a factor. If you make them start compensating for temperature, they will just hike the price. This whole thing is silly unless you find one station with warmer gas than another, giving them an unfair advantage.
Retail gas is not a money maker - the little convenience store is what makes money.
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Both are right, but the previous point is, IMO, more right. The amount of flying you can do depends upon the mass of fuel loaded and then the mass burned. Even before the plan has built, the Specific Fueld Consumption of the engines is specified in thryust generated for mass flow of fuel.
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Yes, you're missing something. The point is, you're buying less gas but paying the same total amount, because it's sold by volume, and the same volume holds fewer molecules of gas when it's warmer.
You're right that this reduces the range of your vehicle and causes you to hit the gas station more often, but it also makes driving more expensive overall. At $3 a gallon, it costs $30 to fill up your 10-gallon tank each time, no matter how dense the gas is. If it's 1% less dense than it should be, then you're spending 1% more to drive the same number of miles, because you have to fill your tank 1% more often.
Fuel injectors can compensate for the gas in your tank getting hotter, and adjust themselves to deliver the same number of molecules of gas to the engine at any temperature. But they can't change the fact that you were charged for more molecules than you actually put into the tank.
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. . . I can tell you that the c-stores are much more interested in making sure they don't run out of gas. Fuel and cigarettes have become commoditized to such a point that retailers can't grow their business with the stuff anymore and are actually expanding through things like newer, larger store formats and food service programs. I never heard anyone making a big deal out of temperature fluctuations -- the retailers certainly don't gain / lose significant amounts of money because of it.
They are, however, very concerned with having a tank run out -- meaning they can't sell any gas, period. Typically, they already have in-tank sensors for fuel levels, even on moldy old pre-IP equipment. I was onsite at an install last December at a rather large store and this happened for about 15 minutes -- the forecourt controller went down and had to be rebooted -- and *everyone* in the store dropped what they were doing and attended to the problem. The retailers' margins are razor-thin with fuel so they have to make money by selling a ton of it -- and they can't do that when they don't have any or when the dispenser-related equipment is down.
Unfortunately, the only way to go about making any radical changes at this point is to physically drag out the entire ruling elite and their political dogs and hang them. This tends to lead to decade or more of civil war and strife, and people hate that. It's so uncomfortable. So things have to get really bad before they resort to it, at which point all the ruling elite flee to England to wait out the unrest while the people tend to get strange and hang and mutilate each other in their frenzy for revenge.
Humans are a weird and disturbing species.
I think the best way to manage is to simply not play the game. There are lots of ways of living a happy and selfless life while ignoring the rules placed down by the Military Industrial Complex.
But you have to educate yourself first. Find out how you're being screwed with before you can avoid being screwed.
-FL
because transporting 30kg of extra fuel around is free
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People drive with maniac leaden feet. Some people don't, but the ones worried about less than 1% of their annual gas use probably do. So their words say that they care, but not their feet.
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Sell it by the kilo
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
OMGPONIES!
And those people are typically idiots. Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves. I've seen lines at the grocery store across the street selling their gas for 3 cents cheaper. You save less than a dollar on a tank of gas. And they grab a 16oz Coke on the way out for $1.29. So not only did they have to wait for 10 minutes to fill the tank to save 75 cents, but they pissed the savings away in a Coke. Worse yet, a Starbucks coffee.
There's much more efficient ways to save money than shopping around for gas. [stepping down]
They didn't "piss away the savings" on a Coke, they made an additional, completely separate purchase with money they wouldn't have had otherwise. Just because it's not how you would choose to spend the money doesn't mean it was pissed away.
People rarely consider their own time when figuring the cost of things, so it's no surprise that the 10 minutes spent waiting is completely overlooked.
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Which is precisely why stations with large shops have the cheapest gas. The margins on gas are razor thin, and most stations make their only real profit in the convenience stores. Some stations even price the gas as a loss-leader to get people into their store. (Which is also why I never buy anything at a gas station, unless I absolutely have to - like if I'm on the turnpike).
This phenomenon, got me thinking, on the east coast, many states only sell beer in liquor stores, whereas in the midwest damn near every store has a license to sell beer. I wonder how much we could decrease the cost of gas on the east coast simply by offering beer/wine liquor licenses to gas stations. In the end it is probably revenue neutral, but some politician could claim that he reduced gas prices a couple of cents.