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Motorists Sue Over 'Hot' Fuel
i_like_spam writes "Motorists in 13 states have filed lawsuits against big oil companies and gas retailers alleging unfair pricing practices related to fuel-pumping temperatures. From an industry standard developed in the 1920's, the price for a gallon of gasoline is based on the density of the fuel at a temperature of 60 degress F. A gallon of gas at higher temperatures is less dense, and therefore contains less energy. The lawsuits claim additional costs of 3 to 9 cents per gallon without temperature adjustments. The fuel industry claims that the costs of installing temerature-adjustment sensors on every pump would be prohibitively high. These sensors are already installed in Canada, however, where the colder temperatures favor consumers."
Look on the bright side - the fact that the US companies do this sort thing to a greater extent than in other countries is evidence that they operate in more competitive and less regulated environment where a few cents is noticed. And while you may pay a few extra cents for you petrol, you probably pay less for other things because of this.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
What if they just put the tanks deeper underground? would it affect it at all?
Those of us who think they know everything annoy those of us who do.
It is not the average but the variation that is important. For example, temperatures are higher in the summer when prices are also higher. Refiners could arrange things to keep prices more even but if this effect is large enough, this could be an intentional thumb on the scale. I think ethanol, which is added in the summer is a larger effect. It costs less that gas and has less energy density so you have to fill up more often when the prices are higher.s -selling-solar.html
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What about the fact that the pump components are also expanding? It seems like that would be more significant than the gas its self expanding. The most accurate solution, as mentioned on car talk, would be to sell gasoline by weight as the weight does not change with temperature.
You must be one ignorant fucking libertarian. The poor SoB selling the gasoline to you sells it to you for the price based on what his distributer sets. If the SoB goes outside of that range, he's fucked. The SoB probably has a markup set by his franchiser so if the SoB does go outside the range, he's fucked again. Even if the franchiser doesn't regulate his markup, the gas distributer is free to adjust the price of the SoB's district so as to have more control over the price than the SoB actually selling the gas.
I find myself extremely skeptical. fuel tanks are usualy fairly far underground. buried tanks are going to be fairly near isothermal and the ambient temperature is not going to change the temp very much on it's short trip to the tank.
If anyone is getting ripped by this, it's the independent fuel stations. There a fuel truck that has been driving for days or dipped out of above-ground storage might indeed be warmer. So the station is buying hot fuel. But the consumer is probably buying fuel much closer to the underground temperature. It would not be hard to fix this since measuring the temperature of the fuel truck would be easy and infrequent.
Finally, were talking a couple of percent difference in energy per gallon here. Don't people suppose that their cars efficiency might also vary by a several percent with ambient temperature?
Finally, the station sells gas by the gallon not by the BTU. you are still getting a gallon. If anything you are getting more than a gallon since it's coming out of a cold tank and then expanding in your hot car tank. So actually you owe them more not less.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I think all you need to know about this is they went to the trouble to install them in Canada where the temp favors the consumer. That would seem to indicate the gas company believes in the phenomenon in question.
Not exactly, the amount that is sold is measured at the filling station, not at the delivery station. So it depends on the conditions of the filling station, if that fuel is cold or not, I have no idea, it probably depends on the individual station. Finally, the station sells gas by the gallon not by the BTU. you are still getting a gallon.
And this ends the argument right there, you buy a gallon of gas, you get a gallon of gas. There are no clauses saying what temperature that has to be at, nor is it sold by the BTU. If they change that, then the whole game changes and actually shows the energy density of what you're buying, which will be important later as we work with alternative fuels. Hydrogen, Gasoline, Diesel, Kerosene, Propane, BioDiesel, vegtable oil, whatever you run your car on, we should compare fuel prices by BTU, and not by volume.
Arguments about this hurting station owners is based on the flawed assumption that gasoline has a fixed markup, but that's generally not true: Most states allow market economics (including, of course, wind direction, phase of moon, rumors, lies, and perhaps now ambient temperature) to dictate the price of gasoline at the pump.
So, in a hypothetical dream-world where all gas stations are required to adjust the meaning of the US Gallon based on temperature, all gas stations in a given climatic area will be about equally affected by temperature shifts.
Of course, their margins are already quite slim, and successful gas stations are not operated by fools. Therefore, if the cost of dispensing "One Temperature-Compensated US Gallon" rises above that of "One Old-School Volumetric US Gallon," then they'll just unilaterally increase prices to compensate, by whatever amount the market will bear.
There will be some variable and inconsistent pricing while they learn to compensate for the change, but it the adjustment period will be short-lived. We consumers wouldn't even notice it given the frequent swings in gasoline prices as of late.
Kid-proof tablet..
I would point out that in aviation, especially military, navel, and commercial aviation, you never hear talk of gallons of fuel, but rather pounds, or kilos of fuel. This is precisely because the proper metric for the determination of the energy content of a fuel payload is the mass of the fuel rather than the volume of the fuel.
determination
But outside the realm of argument, stating the obvious is one of the most basic elements of small talk, which is almost always the first step towards having meaningful conversation with another human. Unfortunately, we can't just walk up to strangers and ask them about their thoughts on the nature of the soul... it's socially unaccepted, but for a good reason. Subjective issues (religion, politics, musical taste, etc) are the most touchy, and when conflict and disagreement erupt around them, people become upset. A new person you're interested in starting a conversation with has no interest in getting into an argument with a stranger. Conversation based around deep thoughts and strong opinions and radical ideas doesn't occur until after you're fairly well acquainted with someone (unless you're part of a society similar to E2). Prior to this, you're confined to asking innocuous questions ("What's your major?" and "Have you seen such-and-such movie?", once you've been talking for a few minutes), and stating the obvious ("It's a scorcher out here today" or "That's a cool shirt") to show that you're willing to engage in verbal communication and exchange a little vulnerability for the possibility that the other will respond with something interesting ("Yeah, I was born in such-and-such, where the weather is...", "Thanks, I bought it from NORML, which meets the first Tuesday of..."). -- www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=164319
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
In the calculation below I often take the most near numbers, since there are many unknown it does not need to be precise.
One need to calculate the number of gallon sold in hot weather, and multiply by 1.2% of 3$ cents.
Taking this fuel consumption in gallon US 2002 for passenger car motor vehicule there was 75000 million gallon and for all motor 167000 million gallon over 2002 (likely more now). Taking ALL motor, 167000 million gallon, and assuming a constant consumption over the year (not true but bear with me) that is 450 million gallons per day. Since most people buy their fuel during day time (at least here around...) I will asumme 100% was bought during the day to simplify. So for EVERY hot day we have roughly 450 million gallon per day bought. But in reality this is for the whole US but not all state will have a very hot temperature. Looking at the population of california, texas and a few other hot state, I come to a population estimate of roughly 70 million people (texas 29M+california 36M+ a few southern bordering 5M). Naturally this is likely to be a bit of an overestimate but I do not went to write a thesis, so unless somebody has better numbers... OK so the proportion is 70/299=~24%. So the fuel consumption for those people per hot day will be 24% of 457 =roughly 105 million gallon per day
. If there is a difference of 1.2% in volume, that means consummer paid 0.036$ too much at 3$ per gallon. This means for oil company a benefice per hot day, for ALL oil company taken together : 3,7 million dollars. Now I do not know the reparition per company, but assuming saomebody knows the % that could be done. repartition.
Still for each individual the loss of 0.036$ might not be that big, but the oil market per HOT day seems to get a few millions dollar, with maybe as much as 30 hot days per years, that would make roughly 100 million dollar. Multiply by 60 years. Sum mount rreaaaallly quick. This is not a BIG sum, but this ain't small chump either.
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Many years ago I worked for an oil company and the billing system had loads of fiendish formulae in it to allow for thermal expansion.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
"and the gas station will get an ~2.4% rebate for gas delivered at 100F, but still sell it at full price to the customers! That's what's wrong."
Not if the retailer sells it at 60F, that's the whole point of the wholesalers paying the rebate. The argument would seem to be about the tempateure of the underground storage.
As another post pointed out: Neglecting the vodka content, if the retailer sells it at 67.4F he will skim ~$0.20 profit for every $50.00 of gas sold. - I'm pretty sure you would loose more than that in vapour expelled from the tank when filling up on a hot day.
Off course the reasonable answer is that everyone in the chain either does or doesn't get the adjustment, OTOH: "reasonable" and "oil company" are rarely mentioned in the same breath.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
i wonder how much the fuel actually changes... in my 12 years of driving i've never heard people complain about heat affecting gas pumps until now - and we've had a very mild summer this year compared to summers in the past.
i do know the lawyers are going to benefit. the citizens in the class action lawsuit will likely not see much, if any, money - but i guarantee you the lawyers are gonna get a nice check.
just remember that.
I actually set gas prices for a number of stations in the Southeast.
The markup on gas is relatively constant, price volatility is due to both demand volatility and supply cost volatility.
The markup isn't that constant. Sometimes we sell gas below cost, sometimes above cost. There are two costs to consider: In-ground cost (what you've paid for what's in the ground) and replacement cost (what you will pay if you buy more gas today). The replacement cost changes every day and is hard to predict. We try to meet profit budgets (about 8 cents a gallon for a typical location; this margin has been shrinking each year) over a fiscal quarter, but on any given day we could be 4 cents below cost or 20 cents over, depending on competitor prices at each location. Of the major retailers, only Wal-Mart tracks cost by changing prices several times a day.
If we tracked replacement cost our prices would be jumping up and down every day a lot more than they do.
Own a home and loading garden supplies into your civic isn't going to cut it.
you know there are these inventions called trailers. I get Stuff from home depot in my little car every week.
Unless you need to move 7 people AND 500 pounds of gear a SUV honestly is a silly status symbol. Dont try to justify it for anything more than what it is. A minivan would do you better service than your SUV.
Camping, Get a RV. costs as much as a trailer (if you are not stupid and buy used instead of new) and now you only use the gas guzzler on the vacation days. (A good used RV costs as much as a good used trailer. Yes it does, my last 2 RV's I paid the same as my buddy that bought a trailer ($10,000) and they were far more comfortable than a camper/trailer. and certainly will pull way more boat than any pickup truck you could buy (ford 460 engine kicks the crap out of little pussy-wussy pickup/suv engines) BTW a buddy of mine pulls a 16 foot camper with his dodge caravan minivan. He also has a 21 foot powerboat he pulls with it as well (loading docks that are all slimey as well, it pulls out as easy as the guys who claim they need 4 wheel drive).
So yes, SUV hate is justified.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
That depends on which state you're in. In the two states that I've lived in where I've owned a vehicle (Michigan and Florida), the content of gasoline is regulated by the state department of agriculture. If it has ethanol in it, the pump has to say it has ethanol in it. This is partly because some types of gasoline engines absolutely cannot have gasoline with any ethanol it because it will cause engine damage. The gas stations I've gotten gas from (primarily Speedway, Mobil, BP, Hess and Circle K) don't change the stickers that list the content on them in the summer months, so I would have to assume that they are not adding ethanol to the gas in the summer, at least if they're complying with state laws.
My blog
"I'd like to hear from someone up in the Great White as to exactly why they have those temperature sensing devices installed. Whose idea was it, the gas companies' or the peoples'? The article(s; I've looked at several elsewhere) seems to imply the former, but I can't find anything explicit on it."
p rice/gasimages/gasreport.pdf%5D
Your intuition about the gas correction situation in Canada appears correct, though the reason is mostly due to the average Canadian climate. Having things corrected to a single temperature is a good idea for consistency sake. 15 degrees C is also the standard used for inter-refinery transfers and such, so it's a good choice for the same reasons. Unfortunately, the temperature chosen apparently doesn't match the average annual temperature in Canada, and therefore, according to the report, consumers are getting consistently shafted (or "hosed" in Canadian lingo).
For the reasons you describe (ground temperature doesn't vary as much), you're right that the temperature probably doesn't make as much difference as people think, but I think industry did its best to make sure it was on the "good" side of the equation.
You'll probably find the comments from the committed report quite amusing. PS: the committee recommendation was rejected.
[From p.51 of the "Report of the Liberal Committee on gasoline pricing in Canada", July 1998, from http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/cars/gas
"Automatic Temperature Compensation (ATC)
Liquids expand as temperatures rise and they contract when temperatures decrease. Gasoline has a high expansion coefficient. According to the Canadian Petroleum Products Institute,"it is estimated that a given volume of gasoline will increase or decrease approximately by 1/8 of 1% for every degree of temperature change".
Five years ago major Canadian oil companies, with the approval of Measurement Canada, accepted a system devised by U.S. oil refiners for their upstream operations and set a retail industry standard of temperature compensation at 15 degrees Celsius. As such, most retailers in Canada now have temperature compensated equipment that adjusts to that standard. Unfortunately for consumers, the average temperature in Canada is 6 degrees Celsius. Thus, a wrong standard was imposed at the retail level and refiners are the net beneficiaries.
It is a fact that 15 degrees Celsius is the American Petroleum Institute's accepted standard at the time of product transfer between refinery pipelines, ships and terminals. However, in all northern US states where the average ambient temperature is below that mark, industry practice, or law, excludes the sale of petroleum on a corrected basis into tank trucks or at retail. In most states where the average temperature is above 15 degrees Celsius, retailers sell product on an ambient basis. In either case, the method of sale at retail benefits the consumer while in Canada the opposite is true.
By converting to 15 degrees Celsius, Ontario consumers, for example, over several months of the year, receives less gasoline for the same dollar spent than if they were to purchase product at ambient temperature. Through the use of temperature correction devices in tank and retail pumps, the Canadian major refiner-marketer has added in excess of $100 million dollars a year to gross margins in that province alone.
That figure represents an absolute transfer of wealth from the consumer to the oil companies when compared to the situation prior to the implementation of costly ATC devices. As it now stands, purchasing gasoline that has been temperature compensated at 15 degrees Celsius is heavily penalizing consumers throughout Canada.
The Committee recommends that either Automatic Temperature Compensation be removed from use in Canada or, to avoid the losses incurred to install expensive ATC devices, that the 15 degree Celsius mark be lowered to the average regional temperature in which product is sold at the tank and retail level."
I got over myself years ago, but nice try anyway.
The summer ethanol is about reducing smog and is only in place in some areas. About 46% of the countries gas is mixed: http://www.drivingethanol.org/promotions/state_flo rida.aspx. The addition of ethanol should, in principle, help to stabalize prices but right now it is used as an excuse to manufacture summer shortages.s -selling-solar.html
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pretty much (lose more performance, than economy, since rolling resistance isn't changed much, just have to allow the extra momentum to carry you up the hills, avoid using brakes when possible.) But I figure it is our duty as free market consumers to reward stations for being competitive. IE if no one shopped around for the cheaper fuel, then their would be little incentive for their to be low cost stations that reduce their costs, and lower their prices.
The garmin GPS software on my PDA, downloads gas prices, and gives cheapest prices along my planed route. So I do that before I leave work, on days I need gas. Although on any given week it only saves maybe $2, I figure enough people do this that it keeps the prices down by double that amount.
I can assure that the average temperature underground is not anywhere near 55 degrees in some places. Here in Arizona, our caves are a steamy 80 degrees year round. This was a shock to me coming from the east coast of the US where caves are always close to a chilly 55 degrees. I know that this gasoline temperature fight has been going on for quite some time here because the gasoline is close to 80 degrees when it comes out of the pump.
This is absolutely correct. I used to own a small convenience store and gas station - independently operated - I could buy my fuel from whatever supplier would deliver to me at the best price. The suppliers were also for the most part independently operated - some would buy fuel from various depots, others were married to specific suppliers, however, they purchased the fuel in large quantities (typically 100,000 L increments) and stored the fuel in underground tanks at their distribution facility.
When I would call to order 10,000L of fuel each week, they would fill the 2 compartments in the truck to 80% of their capacity (2 x 6000L compartments filled to 80% = 9600 L) and head out on the highway to my location. After an hour in the sun on a hot day driving to my location, the usual delivery quantity that the register on the back of the delivery truck would read after emptying the 2 compartments was around 9750L - I had to pay for 9750L. The same truck on a cold day in November would often deliver me only 9500L - even though at the distribution terminal they had filled the truck to their set 80% - 9600L.
My tanks were underground and typically a thermometer dip in the fuel showed a temperature around 58F. So when I bought fuel in the summer - I was often cheated of almost 150L of fuel - I would pay for 9750L to put in my tank, and it would cool down and by the time I pumped it for the customers - I only had 9600L available to pump out. My mark-up was 3c/L - so on 10,000 L approx $300. The "missing" 150L cost me about $150. My profit margin was cut in half in the summer. I figure I somewhat made up for it in the colder months - but it would have been nice if the delivery trucks had been temperature compensating.
I'm out of that business now - $300 a week profit from selling gas just doesn't pay the bills. I'm surprised any small independent gas stations are still in operation.
The Car Talk guys said that temperature should only make an insignificant difference. However, they're not really your neighborhood experts in fluid physics, either.
They may not be *experts in fluid physics but they aren't your garden variety mechanic either. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_talk
"Car Talk hosts, brothers Ray and Tom Magliozzi are long-time car mechanics. Ray Magliozzi has a degree in general science from MIT, while Tom has an undergraduate degree in chemical engineering from MIT, an MBA, and a DBA from the Boston University Graduate School of Management."
Okay... so I'm selling you a product for an arbitrary price. .007 cents per gallon.
I have to make $500k to stay in business.
I want to make $100k more to keep me working in the business (since that gives me $80k take home). Say that works out to
Now you change the law- make me install new sensors- etc. etc.
I'm still going to want $80k take home pay. I still have to make $500k to keep the business going. Who is going to pay for the sensors, installation, and monitoring? Me? The oil company? No.
Of course-- you are going to pay for installing the sensors, installation, and monitoring. So the price is going to be more accurate- but it is going to be higher.
It's part of the reason cars that are $10,000 in some countries are $23,000 here. A long series of "well this is only $200 so we should require it" laws has grossly inflated our car prices. It inflates our labor costs too.
So you can be over charged and pay $1.08 for $1.00 of gas and spend $525 a year on gas or you can be accurately charged for the gass and spend $535 a year on gas.
Your call. People should let this particular issue go in my opinion.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
In some intro engineering class, the professor asked a question to get us to think about the implications of selecting a unit system. The question was: "Crude and Gasoline are sold on a volume bases (gallon/liter/barrel). If gasoline is refined in Louisiana, and shipped to Michigan does who pays for the missing gasoline (and what are they buying)? Is the sale completed on an "as delivered basis", or an "as shipped" basis?
Of course the answer is that the consumer pays regardless, but it raises some interesting accounting issues...
Particle board is more and more common, but I think their plan is to use material that is even unsuitible for this. This keeps their raw materials cost low. On the other hand, trees don't grow all that fast, so their is a limit on the amount of carbon available for this. I expect they'll get into switchgrass though if their efficiency can compete with enzymes. The whole issue is a land use issue rather than a food-paper/timber-fuel choice issue. In the end, there is not enough land (or water) to replace fossil fuels using rooted plants: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/02/photosynthesis .html.s .html
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Actually it is the summer blend that is heavier in enthanol but some areas have more smog in winter and thus go against the main trend: http://www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article _id=2149. s -selling-solar.html
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