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Preventing Another Vista-like Release With Windows 7

CRE writes "An article at the OS News site details how Microsoft could best avoid Windows 7 becoming another Vista-esque release. The author advises Microsoft to basically split Windows in two. Windows 7 would be a new operating system based on the proven Windows NT kernel, but with a completely new user interface, with backwards compatibility provided by VMs. In addition, to please business customers and other people concerned with backwards compatibility, Microsoft should create 'Windows Legacy', basically the current Windows, which will receive only security and bug fixes. Relatedly, APCMag is reporting that Microsoft has moved Julie Larson-Green (the driving force behind Office 2007's Ribbon UI) over to work on Windows 7's interface."

73 of 396 comments (clear)

  1. Not reverting to 9x vs NT days by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Horrible idea, would never be put into practice. MS already spent years merging the 9x consumer brand into the NT-based line. There's no reason they would then spit it again and have to deal with two not fully compatible platforms, requiring a separate support base for each one.

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    1. Re:Not reverting to 9x vs NT days by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Consumers might not know the difference between "XP" and "Vista," but they do know the "Windows" brand, so as long as it has "Windows" in it, they will seek out and buy it.

      --
      Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
  2. kiss by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Keep It Simple Stupid the problem with Vista was that Microsoft wanted to make the Ultimate Operating System, that would put all other Operating Systems to shame (And give to us all the features they promiced us in Windows 95)... But with all the problems with such a large project then ended up with an OS that is arguable slightly better then their old one. I have tried myself to do ambisious projects and they always go over budget and over time, and end up having to do a lot of cuts. I learned not to go crazy and make the ultimate just get it to work correctly and impove on the other one, That way everyone is happy.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  3. "Windows Legacy" by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's called a service pack. And you can slipstream them right into the install (new XP discs sold today include SP2). There is no need to split it into a different product.

  4. This convinces me that linux is going to make it. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As long as Microsoft can maintain a quick pace of innovation, Linux will always be chasing behind it.

    Once the problem becomes well defined and stable, Linux will catch up and O/S will commoditize.

    The longer the release cycles- and the more windows UI changes with those releases, the more likely people will change to linux. I'm ready except for Everquest. Everything else is open source on my boxes now.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  5. Ribbon UI... by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...Microsoft has moved Julie Larson-Green (the driving force behind Office 2007's Ribbon UI) over to work on Windows 7's...

    Oh, no...

    As for the future Windows, I say build it to be a VM store, capable of taking on the personality of any VM---allowing you to have new fancy features as well as the legacy Windows (heck, maybe they should include everything, all the way to DOS, Win3.1, etc.). You don't really `need' an OS (assuming they figure out ways of enabling you to efficiently use the hardware from VM)---you might have a `primary' image that you use all the time, and a buncha others provided for compatibility with previous versions.

    --

    "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

  6. Split = nuts by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about releasing a single OS that scales suitably and automatically to the users' dynamic needs, rather than piling options on the user who neither knows nor cares what the options do.

    "Make it go."

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
  7. Release Success by decipher_saint · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Deliver all the features you promise, and a few extras, when the time is right.

    It's that simple.

    Whether or not the Vista release was successful or not is generally troll bait but from my personal perspective it had none of the things I wanted and featured many things I didn't. I certainly won't be touching it until well after SP1 and even then only if there are several great games for me to play. It was a release "failure" to people like me who expected some goodies and a new Windows iteration but Microsoft delivered a more restrictive operating system. No thanks!

    --
    crazy dynamite monkey
  8. Office 2007 UI? by PhreakinPenguin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If they're planning on making the next Windows UI mirror Office 2007 then count me on the list of people likely to never buy it. The Office 2007 UI is horrible and badly done. Never before with MS products have I felt the desire to kill someone after using a software. Well except for that time I tried using MS Plus but that's a whole nother article.

    --


    My sig of choice is Marlboro
    1. Re:Office 2007 UI? by recoiledsnake · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If they're planning on making the next Windows UI mirror Office 2007 then count me on the list of people likely to never buy it. The Office 2007 UI is horrible and badly done. Never before with MS products have I felt the desire to kill someone after using a software. Well except for that time I tried using MS Plus but that's a whole nother article.

      I beg to differ. First of all, they're not going to 'mirror' the new Office UI into Windows 7. If they wanted to do that, they would just need some code monkeys. They moved the guy who did it into Windows 7 development, which I think is a good move looking at how he improved the usability of Office. Lets hope that he work a similar type of magic for Windows.

      I find the new Ribbon UI leaps and bounds ahead of the UI in Office 2003. The menus are just way more accessible instead of navigating through a labyrinth-like maze of dropdowns. You are more likely to use many features while you never knew even existed earlier because navigating was a chore. Also, I think it makes very good use of the extra pixels that modern screens have(a few years ago, it would have been a colossal waste of screen space).

      Take the anecdotal evidence for what it's worth, but almost every person at work seems to love the new interface. I think that this is a good move by Microsoft.

      --
      This space for rent.
    2. Re:Office 2007 UI? by HerculesMO · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think a lot of that plays to "it's different".

      I have found the new UI, after using it day in and out (work related) to be exceptional and well thought. I work more quickly as I've learned the menus.

      It's entirely different, and that does put people off using it with ease, but different doesn't mean bad necessarily. It takes getting used to, just like anything else.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
  9. YAWV by nachoman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't think the answer is to provide yet another windows version. Having a "new" and "legacy" version is only going to make the problem worse. Imagine if Microsoft came out now and said they were going to support XP for 5 more years with fixes as the "legacy" version. Now no one will be forced to upgrade. Many people like XP better but accept the fact that eventually they will need to go to Vista. For Microsoft, they want to keep people at their latest version because it is easier to support the newer and hopefully "better" code than the old.

    I think a a better way is to do smaller incremental releases. Sure MS may only want to make people drop the 200$ every 4-5 years, but they could make make their service packs yearly and include more new features (similar to XP SP 2). Then when it comes to the next Windows release it hopefully will not be such a drastic change for users.

  10. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Mac users are a loyal fan base making huge OS Changes that breaks all sorts of compatability less damaging. People don't use windows because they are loyal to microsoft, or even like windows, they do so because all their software runs on it. Braking all that compatability would cause many users to rethink what OS they would rather use, free OS like Linux, OS with a good HUI like OS X, or perhaps try some other OS's if all their software goes down the drain then they will most likely feel a grudge toward Microsoft for obsoleting their software investment, and look somewhere else. By doing so I would figure that Linux could rise to about 30% market share, Macintosh would be about 20% and 45% towards windows and 5% going to other OS's from 95% market share to 45% would kill Microsoft or at leat cause a ton of problems for them... Or carry on as they did before and allow a slow leak in market share over decades which would lead to the normalize rate much further in the future vs. Jumping to it right away.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  11. Another Windows? by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Now if it actually incorporates VMs for backward compatibility built on the proven NT kernel, I think they may be onto something. What I see as the problem here is that Microsoft is going it alone like it has so many more times in the past. If this were a joint-venture between M$ and VMWare or some other company of that ilk, I could forsee this being a successful product.

    Unfortunately, M$ won't do that and this product will be hyped to the max and actually provide a lackluster experience for users.

    --
    The game.
  12. First thing they shouldn't do by vivaoporto · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Windows 7 would be a new operating system based on the proven Windows NT kernel, but with
    First thing they shouldn't do, if they don't want end up with another Vista, is to promise features before they are implemented, tested and integrated. It is a lose lose situation, just like it was when they were marketing Longhorn.
  13. Re:Proven? by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Take the Linux Kernel, Run every program as root, install a bunch of 3rd party drivers for cheap hardware that may or may not function properly. Have this in a distribution that is widly spread so about 90% of all people are using... See how good Linux holds up.

    The Windows NT Kernel is actually a very good kernel. It is the fact that the rest of the OS is designed in a way that cause problems to occure.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  14. Well, I doubt that's the reason for the bomb by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Vista wasn't ill received because of the incompatibility. Plain and simple, it was not a step forwards. It wasn't something that improved your working, playing or surfing experience in any way. If anything, it was a step backwards.

    Add various real and perceived problems with privacy, the data hunger of MS, the dread of DRM/TCP and other rather negative reviews, and you see the reason why Vista wasn't the next Win95 hype.

    The problem is that XP already has everything the user wants. It can play games, it's compatible with almost any current hardware right out of the box, there is no USB (WinNT) or WiFi (2k) that would require him to update, whatever hardware he wants to plug in, XP can take care of it. Whatever software he wants to run, XP can do it. DirectX10-only games are still far from reaching the shelves, and no business software that I'm aware of requires Vista. The user interface of XP has all the main features that make working, surfing and playing in Windows enjoyable, and all the kinks and wrinkles were also taken care of by third party software vendors (where "vendors" does not necessarily mean you had to pay anything for the soft).

    Basically, the reason why Vista didn't sell like hot cakes was simple: It was not needed.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Well, I doubt that's the reason for the bomb by Avatar8 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      All good points, and I agree: Vista was not enough of an improvement to warrant an upgrade. From my experience, I purchased a new computer in February this year (Core 2 Duo E6600, 2Gb RAM, 2x nVidia 8800 384Mb cards in SLI, 320Gb SATA) that I felt would easily exceed Vista requirements and provide me the promised "gamer experience."

      Install was easy if not quick. The UAC pop ups were expected and not so annoying to begin with. I started clearing them and changing the factors that caused them. Everything I did caused another one. I started trying to get my SLI and dual screen setup to work. Vista would never see the second screen. I went to download the latest nVidia driver (~60Mb) via IE 7. It took it nearly 12 minutes over my 15Mb FiOS connection. Installed the driver and still Vista would not see my second monitor. That did it for me. Three hours was enough time wasted when I should have been surfing at the speed of light and playing.

      Installed XP and updated it in less than 2 hours. Downloaded the same ~60Mb patch via Firefox in less than one minute. By hour three I was playing World of Warcraft faster, more smoothly and more richly than I'd ever seen it before.

      I could have eventually worked through the technical glitches, but there's no way I can improve Vista and IE 7's sluggish performance THAT much.

    2. Re:Well, I doubt that's the reason for the bomb by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not saying computers are "solved" and we don't need another, better OS. What I said was, that Vista was not needed.

      What I'm saying is not that software as a whole can't evolve. What I say is that Vista offers not enough additional value to warrant switching, and that the average user is quite fine with XP as long as architecture or system requirements don't force him to move away from it. Vista offers nothing the average user misses in XP. And that's actually a first since WinME.

      Win2k was the quite successful "merger" of the NT line with the 9x line. It offered the stability and sturdyness of NT along with the "game compatibility" of 9x. It was a huge step forwards for both lines of products, not to mention USB support that NT lacked completely and 9x's support was ... well, not really what USB support was supposed to be.

      XP offered less additional value, but it did. More stability, better support for certain drivers, easier integration of WiFi equipment, easier update support, a bit more security.

      Vista doesn't offer anything really measurable that you can't get easily with free third party tools. More importantly, its performance is not on par with XP due to a lot of changes that appearantly aren't really optimized yet.

      Vista's problem is that there was no need for it. There is no new hardware that isn't supported in XP, as it was with USB and WiFi. There's no must-have new architecture out that requires Vista. And the only Vista-only software we'll see for quite some time to come are games, and even that only if studios dare being DX10 only.

      That's why I said it's not needed. There will be a need for OSs that support future developments, no doubt. But Vista, in its current state, has no selling point.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Well, I doubt that's the reason for the bomb by bogie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Your ignoring the big performance hit and high hardware requirements for Vista. Granted 2k is slightly faster than XP on the same hardware but unlike Vista you don't need to make such a quantum leap in order to get XP to run as quickly as 2000.

      Also XP brought us things like a built-in firewall, clear type, remote desktop, 64bit support, etc.

      It also brought some unwelcome things like product activation and DRM, but on the whole it is widely agreed that XP is a respectable upgrade over 2000. This is where your argument pretty much falls apart, it is not widely agreed that Vista is a worthwhile upgrade over XP, in fact it is quite the opposite. So your statement that "But XP, in its current state, has no selling point." isn't really true. If it had no selling point then why are people still clamoring for XP and why are we seeing vendors who had moved to Vista had to cave in to the huge demand to bring XP back?

      That simply did not happen on such a large scale with XP. I remember the XP haters(I was probably one of them) and the complaints about speed when XP first came out but they pail in comparison to the revolt I'm seeing against Vista. IMHO this is new and different then any other MS transition to date. Or maybe I should just say this is the worst Microsoft OS transition to date and when you look at what happened internally during Vista's development cycle nobody should be surprised at the outcome.

      Your right that in 200x when Windows 7 comes out that these same old arguments will crop up, but unless MS pulls a rabbit out of their asses with Vista SP1 your going to see a huge amount of users sticking with XP until Windows 7 comes out.

      --
      If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
  15. Virtual Machines by Odin_Tiger · · Score: 5, Interesting

    with backwards compatibility provided by VMs

    That just gave me an interesting idea: Why doesn't MS ship fully functional versions of previous OS's, wrapped in a VM, with newer versions? What would they lose? I know I'd be far less worried about upgrading to Vista if I knew I could load up a built-in VM of DOS 6.0 or Win98SE or WinXP and play all my favorite shareware games from the '90s as easily as the latest-and-greatest. Same goes for here at work...it would be nice to know that some of our older software could just be loaded in a VM until the vendors catch up with Vista. As long as they maintain security on the sandbox itself, they wouldn't need to worry overmuch about keeping the old OS up to date, and it's not like people would be buying Vista just to exclusively use it to run XP, but it would make for a much more obvious upgrade path than the current hard cutoff in backwards compatibility.

    --
    Unpleasantries.
  16. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by peragrin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Like MSFT couldn't make their own version of wine in half the time, or even use a VM. OS X did. the OS 9 for PPC VM was advanced enough to play OS 9 games in. Yes I did. Are you saying MSFT isn't smart enough to make such a compatiblity layer? Not even the MSFT basher in me believes that.

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  17. Proprietary lock-in by leandrod · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The issue here is proprietary lock-in. If MS would fix all the architectural problems of MS Windows, it would basically be a new OS. It could keep parts of the kernel, but the userland interfaces would change so much that only VMs could keep compatibility -- and with them comes a huge resources consumption boost on an already heavy architecture. But resources are not the main issue: it is that the new applications would be so different from old ones that vendors would most likely do something cross platform and MS would loose proprietary lock-in.

    Also, it would take so long that GNU/Linux would have a huge window of opportunity, with the added benefit of low resources usage and true backwards compatibility.

    Finally, it would be so different from MS Windows and so much like GNU/Linux or the Hurd that people would see the king is naked.

    --
    Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
    DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
    GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
  18. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have been saying essentially the same thing for years and years since the discussions about Win32 weaknesses that cannot be fixed without a restructuring of the API.

    The Win32 API is a complete mess. Backward compatibility is important to be sure. But the future of stable operating systems is also an issue. Apple couldn't have been bolder in their move to create OSX. They created an entirely new OS and provided some really buggy means to run OS9 software... believe me, it certainly sucked but it generally "worked." It was more than enough motivation for people to migrate to the OSX versions of the same packages they've been using, but for those not willing to make the move for whatever reason, they were able to limp by.

    Applying the same idea to a new Microsoft OS would probably work better. Virtualization environments on the PC have come a long way in a relatively short time. One might even suggest that it's fairly mature technology. (I'm not quite ready to say that myself though.) But to provide backward compatibility through virtualization while at the same time creating something like "Win64" and making it completely new, more modern and at the same time tossing backward compatibility out the window (figuratively speaking) would probably bring new life into the "struggling under its own weight" OS and the company who makes it.

  19. Re:This is a serious question: by tehcyder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since when has Microsoft ever done anything specifically to make your life easier, your migration easier or your overall cost of ownership cheaper?
    I thought the problem with Microsoft was that they always tried to be too nice to their users (e.g. maintaining backward compatibility with existing software, hiding important system options) at the expense of genuine innovation and improvements in security and stability?
    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  20. Re:This convinces me that linux is going to make i by vfrex · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Its worse than that for Microsoft. The cost to develop a new OS has increased exponentially (with the complexity) since their 3.1/95 days. That trend isn't going to reverse, and it is going to become impossible for Microsoft to innovate and profit from the OS alone. That is why widespread support for ODF can break them, and why they are fighting it so hard.

    The OSS model is working a lot better at spreading out the complexity and costs of innovating within an OS. Its simply a more sustainable "business" model than Microsoft's.

  21. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by dc29A · · Score: 5, Informative

    and dumped Windows for a more stable and secure approach. You know, I am probably going to get modded down to hell.

    But what makes you think Windows is less stable and less secure than *Nix or OSX? Other than people and their dogs running Windows as administrators (that's more an education problem vs Windows security), Windows is not less secure than *Nix or OSX. In fact, things like file system security is better than *nix, IMO. Windows ACLs just own, it's a breeze to use them versus the obscure *Nix FS security.

    And for stability? The only time my Windows box crashed was because of piece of shit ATI drivers. People need to get away from the Windows 9x crashing every 3 minutes mentality. XP is rock solid (didn't drive Vista enough to tell on it's stability). I am currently running a VWare GSX server on Windows 2003, the only time I reboot is to install OS patches. Crashes so far: zero, nada, zilch. Been running it for 7+ months. Hardware: Do it your own el-cheapo components.

    The vast majority of Windows crashes are due to defective hardware and/or drivers. Ever installed an unstable driver on Linux? Ever had a hardware failure on OSX?
  22. simplicity... by smithcl8 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Two versions: server and workstation. That's it. No more "ultimate" or "home" or any other stripped down versions.

    For Server: no client access licenses. When you buy a copy of the server software, you can have as many clients as you want. Each server version is capable of everything, including clustering, load balancing, and everything else.

    For Workstation: one interface. It could be new or old, whatever, but exactly one. If it's new, we all need to learn the new version. Don't like that? Get Linux or a Mac.

    Finally, both server and workstation should support a single hardware compatibility list. If your hardware isn't on the list, you can't load it; update the list monthly through Windows Update. There is Driver Signing already, but you can get around it by ignoring the warnings. Eliminate getting around the warnings.

    1. Re:simplicity... by codemaster2b · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, No, and... No.

      Single hardware compatibility list? Absolutely not! The strength of the PC is MODULARITY and standard INTERFACES. The reason you own a PC now and not a Mac is that PCs allow you to swap components. And, they permit lots of competition by allowing a free market.

      What if I wanted to make and sell a hardware-based product? Could I? Just how hard would it be to get my product on that single hardware compatibility list? Hm?

      And you didn't mention it, but the logical extension of your concept is a single software compatibility list. If your software isn't on the list, you can't load it. Perhaps I'm reading more into it that you meant, and if so, I apologize. But I'm a software engineer. I make hardware and software products. I do not want my financial success to be at the gracious mercy of Microsoft allowing me to install my product on my target market's computers.

      Also, think of the manipulation. What if some commercial interest expressed an opinion that your software/hardware should be banned. Say the RIAA or MPAA? What if the law itself was wrong? [I'm not saying that the law is wrong. But the concept of "the law is always right" is wrong. Otherwise, we would not have a method for removing bad laws].

      And we haven't even mentioned the government yet...

      Simplicity is a dream. The problem is, simple does not meet the needs of everyone. [Jesus is the exception here]. You cannot make a computer that does meet everyone's needs, yet remains simple for everyone who uses it. Excuse me, there is a way - but the computer would have to interact uniquely to every person. I don't want to be known quite that well by my computer, if you get my drift.

      --
      And over there we have the labyrinth guards. One always lies, one always tells the truth, and one stabs people who ask t
  23. That's a good idea... by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...but, by introducing different product lines in their OS, Microsoft will only confuse the customer, and they're way too smart and customer oriented to allow something like that to happen.

    What they really ought to do is something more like what Apple did with the Classic Mode environment for supporting OS 9 applications, which ran within OS X. Thing is, MS will probably have to support theirs indefinitely, while Apple was able to successfully kill Classic Mode within about 5 years.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  24. Re:This convinces me that linux is going to make i by lordtoran · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As long as Microsoft can maintain a quick pace of innovation, Linux will always be chasing behind it. It has been a long time since Microsoft and innovation used to be mentioned within the same sentence. This is not how they maintain their position in the marketplace.
    --
    Want to hear the voice of GOD? cat /boot/vmlinuz > /dev/dsp
  25. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You are confused.

    The platform that made them #1 was MS-DOS.

    The rest was just inertia and network effects.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  26. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I hope you don't get mod'ed down, because you're spot on. Microsoft have nothing to gain from ditching NT; it's a fairly nice kernel architecture, and has a few advantages over existing *NIX kernels. A few subsystems need a bit of performance tweaking, but that's true of any OS.

    The problems with Windows are all at the Win32 layer. This is a huge problem for Microsoft, since their biggest competitive advantage is backwards compatibility. There is a lot of Win32 software around. Hardly anyone runs Windows because they like Windows, they run Windows because they need to be able to use some bit of Win32 (or, in some cases, Win16) software, and trust Windows to do this more than WINE.

    Ever had a hardware failure on OSX? You only get those when there's a bogon overload in the RDF generator.
    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  27. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Shiny happy Windows style installers have been available for Linux since when the consumer version of Windows was still just a glorified MS-DOS shell.

    The notion that there is some lack of "InstallShield for Linux" is one of the more absurd bits of FUD that's cropped over the years (now decades).

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  28. Vista is not a failure by ThinkFr33ly · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While the FUD machine has done an admiral job at making Vista seem like a steaming pile, that's all it has been: FUD.

    I've been using Vista since November of 2006, essentially days after it was released to MSDN, and it is without a doubt better than XP. The improvements are both obvious and subtle. I'm not going to list them all here, because others have done a good job already.

    So if Vista is superior to XP technically, which was deemed by most as a great success, then Vista being a failure must be attributed to sales data. Many early reports showed Vista having poor sales, but those reports were flawed due to the fact that they compared the launch of Vista to the launch of XP. Vista launched Jan. 29th, long after the holiday season was over, where as XP enjoyed the entire holiday season to boosts its sales.

    Once this was corrected, reports showed that Vista was selling on pace with XP. Indeed, as of March 2007, Vista's sales were double that of XPs.

    In addition, despite being released to consumers and businesses separately, Vista's sales were only 4% behind XP, which was released to both simultaneously. In other words, Vista beat expectations by a long shot.

    So it must be that sales of Vista have stagnated since March... opps, that's not true either. Apparently, Vista sold so well that it offset the massive hit Microsoft took as part of extending the Xbox 360 warranty to 3 years.

    And then there is the wonderful story that Vista has somehow boosted XP sales, which is completely silly. It didn't boost XP sales. There was a larger proportion of XP sales than were expected, but the breakdown is about 80% Vista, 20% XP. Part of this is thanks to the FUD machine (good job guys) prompting some large OEMs, like Dell, to offer XP on lower end machines. Microsoft underestimated the FUD machine's ability to influence the market. (By the way, there were 7% more XP sales than were expected. Hardly a tidal wave of XP purchases.)

    Sorry guys. I know you desperately want to believe that Vista is a failure, both technically and in terms of sales. But you're wrong on both accounts. 2 years from now, when 90% of PCs are running Vista, you'll probably still claim it's a failure, although you'll fall back to the technical side of things.

    I'll be sure to bookmark my post and repeatedly link to it in all those flame wars.

    1. Re:Vista is not a failure by hxnwix · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've been using Vista since November of 2006 Wow... sorry. No wonder you're so angry.
    2. Re:Vista is not a failure by ThinkFr33ly · · Score: 2, Informative

      I still refuse to use an OS that will cripple or remove my ability to view HD content, or that will require an expensive license from Microsoft to allow me to build any drivers for the 64bit version, or that, if you turn off the non-security "feature" of UAC suddenly disallows programs to write to the TEMP folder First, Vista doesn't prevent you from viewing HD content. I don't have any "trusted" media path hardware (like HDMI), yet I can view HD content just fine.

      Second, you can develop 64bit drivers all you want. Vista, by default, will only load signed 64bit drivers. You can either obtain a signing cert from a company like Verisign (for about $400), or you can TURN OFF THAT RESTRICTION. Wow, is that so hard?

      Lastly, I have no idea what you're talking about regarding UAC. If you turn it *off* it disallows admin's the right to write to the temp folder? What temp folder? In your profile? Is it a permissions issue?

      At the very least, Microsoft should have realized that, with most people acclimated to XP over the last 6-7 years, totally changing the look and feel of everything was a bad idea. (No, I don't want to customize the damn desktop, I want access to its properties!!!) So change it back. If you don't like the new GUI, change it to the old GUI. Are you honestly claiming that Vista, as a whole, is a "steaming pile" because they changed the very ambiguous (albeit familiar) term "properties" to the much more description "Customize"? Wow.

      If you think Dell was simply responding to FUD when it decided to sell XP boxes again, you're deluding yourself. A big company like Dell has access to all kinds of data upon which to base a decision like that, and the business knowledge to know what will be profitable. Really? Because in public statements Dell said that they had received "communications" from "customers" that said they wanted XP as an option. They explicitly stated that this was the reason they continued to offer it on low end machines. So, are they lying, or are you full of shit?
    3. Re:Vista is not a failure by Luke+Dawson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your attempt at defending Vista is admirable, but I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you. I've been using Vista for a few months now, and I can say for sure, certainly from my perspective, it most certainly is not an improvement over XP. Unfortunately, since my "upgrade" to Vista, the pace at which I get that stuff done is noticeably slower. Perhaps it's due to me just getting used to it, or perhaps it really isn't a productivity booster. My feelings lean towards the latter. I've already disabled UAC, don't use Aero, turned off the sidebar, and tried as much as possible to trim it down to the point that it now just looks like XP with a new start menu. As far as I'm concerned the "improvements" Vista have brought are completely superfluous to the computing experience - there is no "must have" feature in Vista for me, and I'm sure many others. That and the fact that it runs like a dog even on the hardware I'm using which is little over a year old convince me that Vista is a major flop, despite what sales numbers might say.

    4. Re:Vista is not a failure by ThinkFr33ly · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unfortunately, since my "upgrade" to Vista, the pace at which I get that stuff done is noticeably slower. Why? Is it that your PC is slower, or is it that you can't perform the same actions you used to as fast as you used to because of UI changes. If so, what are those UI changes that are causing you the most problems?

      I've already disabled UAC Why?

      don't use Aero Why? For performance reasons? Fair enough, although a Dx9 video card with 128MB of ram runs turned off the sidebar Understandable. The sidebar is almost useless right now. Most of the gadgets suck. It has potential, but it's not there yet.

      As far as I'm concerned the "improvements" Vista have brought are completely superfluous to the computing experience Well, the only things you've mentioned are the visible changes to Vista. There are TONS of changes under the hood, as well as UI changes that are more subtle, that are of enormous benefit. Go read that wikipedia article I linked to in my first post.

      that and the fact that it runs like a dog even on the hardware I'm using which is little over a year old convince me that Vista is a major flop, despite what sales numbers might say. I run Vista on all my machines. I have an IBM t42P which is over 3 years old. (1.8Ghz, 2GB of RAM, 5200RPM disk, 128MB dx9 graphics card). Runs about the same as XP, if not a bit more responsive. The perf score for the machine is 3.8. My desktop, which is over 2 years old, gets a 4.9 and runs Vista extremely well.

      Most studies show that Vista is about the same as XP perf wise when tested via benchmarks, and overall "feels" more responsive than XP. The key here, I think, is RAM. Vista is very aggressive at caching things it thinks you'll need, and because of this it can take much better advantage of RAM. 1GB is a minimum, 2GB seems to be a sweet spot. Considering a 1GB DIMM costs about $70, it's not that bad an upgrade.

      Can you describe your machine's stats?
  29. The thing is... by Bullfish · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As XP is the dominant OS out there, I point out that Vista so far is selling better than XP at the same point into XP's life. XP also had most of the same complaints now leveled at vista. I suspect by the time windows 7 (with the inevitiable delays) comes out, most will have an attitude of I'll buy 7 when you pry vista out of my cold dead hands.

  30. First things first. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Insightful
    First you have show that whatever you are proposing will force the users to walk the upgrade-treadmill. Anything that eases the pain or something that allows them to get off the treadmill is a no-no. So first learn to present the project in the correct perspective. It might benefit the users, it might benefit the developers. But if it offers even a theoretical respite from the upgrade-treadmill, the project is a non starter.

    You seem to be under the impression, there is competition and if MSFT does not do what is best for the customers, they will desert it in droves. Time and again MSFT has proved that its customer base is loyal to a fault and is a sucker for punishment. Now go back to the drawing board and come up with a plan for Windows-7 that will force all the weary recently upgraded to Vista finally dudes to plunck down more money to upgrade to Windows-7.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  31. Try Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The driver situation is going to be just crazy. Its bad enough now with windows. Then try Linux, and you'll never complain about the Windows driver situation again...
    1. Re:Try Linux by enjerth · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then try Linux, and you'll never complain about the Windows driver situation again... Yeah. Cause then it'll be Linux that you're complaining about.

      I mean seriously, when you have driver troubles in Linux, it's NOT going to be solved by running a self-executable installer downloaded from the hardware manufacturer.
    2. Re:Try Linux by WED+Fan · · Score: 4, Funny

      Then try Linux, and you'll never complain about the Windows driver situation again...

      How dare you, sir? How dare you?

      I hope you go to GNU/Hell for such slander and heresy. I hereby declare GNU/Fudwah upon you.

      The Prophet, holiness and peace be upon RMS, will surely smite thee in the name of the All Sharing GNU. There is but one GOD and GNU is its name, and RMS is its Prophet, and its Holy Writ is GPL (now in the GNU and IMPROVED, heretic ass-kicking, version 3, call now GNU/Operators are standing by).

      "Uh, just one question, what does GOD need with a driver?" - James T. Kirk, Star Trek

      GNU/Linux, although written by a heretic and apostate, is GOD's perfect design the Prophet has claimed as His own, GNU/Peace be upon his posterior. It is the weapon to crush the Infidels of Redmond and their Satanic Gospel of Commerce and Property.

      Face east, kneel, and pray towards MIT before it is too late.

      GNU/Fudwah has been proclaimed.

      --
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    3. Re:Try Linux by Gription · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At least Linux gives you a choice of user interfaces...

      The fact that Microsoft can't figure out that making a massive non intuitive change to the UI (when it isn't required for functionality) is insane. Business needs simple and straight forward solutions. It doesn't need a 'cartoon' interface.

      BTW - How come their new, more secure OS lists EVERY USER NAME at login? (and you can't turn it off...)
      Lets play "Guess which user has a weak password"! The game is much easier if you start with all of the user names.

    4. Re:Try Linux by suv4x4 · · Score: 5, Informative

      BTW - How come their new, more secure OS lists EVERY USER NAME at login? (and you can't turn it off...)
      Lets play "Guess which user has a weak password"! The game is much easier if you start with all of the user names.


      Nice rant there. You can turn it off (first), and second, the username is not supposed to be part of the secret, just the password is (I know for example your Slashdot username is Gription. Got weak password?). Ubuntu will also show (among other distros) list of users on startup.

    5. Re:Try Linux by Fallingcow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm still trying to figure out what XP and Vista do that Windows 95 didn't, which requires them to take up so much more HD space than it did.

      Win95 ran happily on a 1GB HD, with several hundred (maybe as much as 700, IIRC) MB left for apps, and I can't really think of more than one or two very minor new things that XP does that I actually use. Image/video thumbnails are nice, I guess, and having a CD/DVD burning program integrated into the file manager seems like a no-brainer, except that the one they made sucks so badly that I only use it as a last resort, usually on someone else's machine, so frankly I could live without it. The new network management system is obviously better, but doesn't justify more than 2-3MB of extra disk space usage, tops.

      Why are XP and Vista so huge? Is there something I'm overlooking, or has MS' code really become so bloated that it takes 1.5+ GB to accomplish what 200-300MB did before? Hell, I can fit a Linux desktop that does SIGNIFICANTLY more in that much space, with Openoffice and a real CD burning app, full-featured media player and all kinds of other goodies. Why does the basic MS OS take up so much room?

    6. Re:Try Linux by Fallingcow · · Score: 3, Informative

      Neither Gnome nor KDE require a GB. A basic Linux system with X and either of those desktop managers and no other applications installed would probably come in at 500-700MB. With that extra space one could easily cram in Abiword, Gnumeric, Firefox, and pretty much every other "must-have" desktop app that one could need in less than a GB. Substitute Openoffice for Abiword and Gnumeric and it might put it a tad over the 1.0GB mark, but not by a whole lot (the download from their site is 120MB, so the installed size is probably not over 200MB).

      (Oh, and I just told Synaptic to mark Gnome and every package that depended on it for removal, and it said that 315MB would be freed. Vanilla gnome with no other apps installed, then, must take up less than 315MB. I think KDE uses a bit more. Linux+basic terminal apps+X takes up MAYBE 200MB, so the 500MB low end of my estimate was closest to reality for a no-app (or, rather, apps comparable to a vanilla Windows intallation) system with a full-featured GUI.

    7. Re:Try Linux by whmac33 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you're describing Windows 2000....

      Personally, I like that one the best.

    8. Re:Try Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Particularly;

      Animated system tours
      High resolution graphics (especially Vista)
      Backup copies of most important system files (XP is essentially installed twice, FYI)
      Drivers for every printer made before the OS was released
      Backup copies of every patch and service pack ever installed
      Speech recognition and text-to-speech synthesis engines
      Larger dictionaries for spelling and grammar checking
      Fonts for foreign languages
      Registry and filesystem snapshots (System Restore and Shadow Copies)
      Thumbnail caching for pictures
      Document and filesystem indexing
      Copies of different versions of system files for programs that can't use newer versions

      aaaand

      Copies of the installers for most programs you've installed (to facilitate that "repair" option). Go ahead - check out the folder size on C:\Windows\Installer, and C:\MSOCache if you've installed Office. Don't forget to collect your jaw before you leave. ;-)

      Now, the real question that you have to ask is - is it worth it? I'm inclined to say "yes" for almost everything except the backups of patches/service packs, and those tours. The rest contributes to my ease of recovery when something goes wrong, the stability and compatibility of the system, the time saved not having to dig up drivers for when I plug in that old-ass HP LaserJet, the speeding up of the browse through my pictures, and the text-to-speech engine is just a plain bit of fun (you can't deny having enjoyed making it say stupid things). :-)

    9. Re:Try Linux by Endo13 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Lots of games don't run on it. If I want a nice, lean system that doesn't run games, I'll use Linux :) Wow, I can't believe how many people subscribe to this misconception. "Lots of games don't run on Win2K"?? I can only assume the last time you used Win2K was at least 5 years ago. In all my years of gaming, and all my old games (yes, including DOS games) I found exactly one game that ran more or less "properly" on XP that did not run on 2K. That's right: one. And that one required a number of special tweaks to work on XP, and mostly worked on 2K as well with those same tweaks. (For the curious, this was the PC version of FFVII.) If you're talking about games like AOE3 that make the BS claim "requires winXP or newer" that's exactly what it is. Bullshit. The games work every bit as well on 2K as XP once you download a "patch" that stops them from looking for XP. Yes, even for online play. Once you have them installed, they really don't care whether they're on 2K or XP.

      Ah, but what about compatibility mode? Well, it's true - with WinXP they included this fancy new "Compatibility Mode" feature that Win2K didn't come with, that let you (so the story goes) run programs just like they ran in the version of Windows they were originally programmed for. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But wait! That exact same compatibility mode was also made available in Win2K. That's right. It was a part of SP4 that was obviously not much publicized, due to that same "compatibility mode" being a selling point for XP. (Hey look kids, a new version of the NT OS that supports DOS and Win95 programs!!)

      So please, I beg you start listing your "lots of games" that work in XP but not 2K. I assure you when actually check them all out on a Win2K install with SP4 and the latest updates, your list will end up pretty short or outright non-existent.
      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    10. Re:Try Linux by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are comparing a light DOS/Win32 assembly optimized OS with a rather large portable C based OS that has a central client/server kernel, security, and on TOP of that full subsystems that are OSes in themselves like Win32 and BSD.

      If you take any fundamental feature of the NT product base that has become XP or Vista and try to compare it to a DOS/GUI hybrid OS you need to stop and compare what 'weight' the differences would have.

      For example, when you start adding in Multi-languages, full Unicode support, or even the Font sizes to support the Unicode specifications, you are adding literally 100mb of space there ALONE.

      Next add in security which DID not exist in Win9X, and this is NOT light security it is a full token based security system that EXTENDS beyond just the FS. And this is not even mentioning NTFS encryption abilities, journaling abilities, compression abilities, etc.

      Also realize that a significant amount of the OS install is for a backup of the install media and drivers so you don't have to grab the DVD when adding new hardware or if a system file gets changed so the OS can self repair. Just in drivers alone Vista supports approximately 500 times the devices Win95 did, and just the INF files for this alone for these devices, not even including the binaries is over 40mb of data.

      See how quick this starts to add up?

      Now let's add in basic system disk usages, like shadow copies, system restore, larger pagefiles and hibernation file support ALL OF WHICH Win9X did not have to deal with with the exception of the pagefile and it was usually dynamic and around 200mb in Win9x. So once Vista is installed the OS is already shadowing files, managing at least one restore point, and has 2-6gb of data just for the pagefile and hibernation store.

      Arguing the difference between any NT based OS and Win9X is easy for anyone that understands the massive changes in OS over the years and the difference between an assembly optimized single purpose OS to a portable scalable OS. As for features this gives users that you DIDN'T have in Win95, there is better threading, better caching, security, full networking services, multi-cpu support,(Vista even adds multi GPU support, preemptive GPU scheduling, and GPU RAM Virtualization ), and with NT there is also platform independence like running on anything from Itanium to x86 to x64 with barely more than a recompile because of the code portability that doesn't 'quite' compile as tight as was allowed with the Win9X OSes. You also have a lot of 'high' end services, servers, and features from things like *nix based printing support, SNMP management all the back to user seen features like RDP (remote desktop/terminal services), concurrent multi-user login support, etc etc.

      Now to argue why Vista uses more HD than XP, start with the basic features of XP, then add in Media Center, Tablet PC Edition, and then start with support for a NEW API system for the graphics, audio, networking, printing, video, and even the animation API sets as well as the communication APIs, and this has to CO-EXIST with the older APIs as Vista still allows basic GDI based printer drivers, kernel XP video drivers, XP audio drivers in addition to the new driver models, and it also has internal compatibility layers so that the XPS printing system 'seamlessly' talks to older GDI printers or older applications printing using GDI technology or old Audio software or old Video software, and will ensure that they all convert BOTH ways so that old and new applications can use both old and new devices.

      To further the XP Vista comparison, you then have to add in all the 'Vista' visible features like the search system(which even indexes ink, can do OCR on image documents, and even index voice notes so that recorded conversations can be text searched), the Text to Speech, the speech recognition, the .NET frameworks, the installers, and the MS development DLLs that never shipped as part of the OS, tons of new applications, tools and utilities, codecs, et

  32. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by jZnat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're looking for polish and consistency (well, those don't seem to coexist happily very often; think about it), look no further than Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Mandriva, Linspire (which will be based on Kubuntu if it isn't already), and Fedora. I look forward to KDE 4 for a polish that should surpass any polish or consistency you come to expect in Windows (yeah right; polish, maybe, but consistency on Windows? laughable) or Mac OS X (polish definitely, and consistency is still weird when it comes to the GUI; I hear that will change in 10.5), but that's just me. For polish now, like I said, look at K/Ubuntu, Mandriva, Linspire, etc.

    --
    'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
  33. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by FlatLine84 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    FUD or not, not everything is is easy for Joe Schmoe to install on Linux as it is on Windows. Besides apt-get or yum, or even cpan, it's a pain in the balls for the home user to install something and get it to work. Hell, even using yum or apt-get, a lot of times you still have to play around with conf files to get something to work. Too many years of being given that, and the average person won't spend the time playing around to get something to work.

  34. Re:Coke Classic by mhall119 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Microsoft selling Windows Legacy looks suspiciously similar Coke selling Coke Classic. Tell everyone they like "New Coke", realize the don't, and start selling "Coke Classic". Tell everyone they like "Vista", realize they don't, and then sell "Windows Legacy." Actually, numerous taste tests showed overwhelmingly that people did like the taste of "New Coke" more than "Classic". "New Coke" didn't fail because of taste.
    --
    http://www.mhall119.com
  35. Re:Gee.. by EvanED · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ..create MORE 'Windows Legacy?' This is one of the major, abyssmal design choices in current Windows versions responsible for truck loads of the issues every Windows user and their grandma have come to hate said OS

    This is at least somewhat correct. Legacy support is responsible for a lot of Windows's problems.

    However, it's also perhaps the biggest single reason for its success.

  36. Re:I for one.. by ozmanjusri · · Score: 3, Funny
    I'm wondering why they keep on calling 'em "Windows". Why not Microsoft "Doors"?

    They tried "Microsoft Gates" at one stage, but people got confused.

    --
    "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  37. Businesses don't want the "Advantage" by Deathlizard · · Score: 4, Informative

    The reason you're not seeing the business side jump all over this OS isn't because of just compatibility issues. It's the Genuine advantage.

    For example. here where I work, we had Vista running everything most office workers need; Office, IE, SCT, Even wintegrate, which is an ancient terminal program from 96. There was three reasons we didn't go to vista. One was the System requirements we were not ready to meet, another was that F-secure did not have an official Vista version at the time, but the real reason we decided to stay with XP was simple. The Genuine Advantage is for lack of a better word a total pain in the ass.

    In vista there are two ways of handling corporate keys. One with a Key Management server and the other with a Multiple Activation Key. Under KMS. You are required to have a KMS server on your network, tie it to DNS and give it your VLK (which can be changed if your old key is disabled and propagated to networked PC's). once you do that it will activate any Business version of vista automatically every 3-6 months without entering any keys, but if the computer is no longer on the network (say a Laptop) after 3 months, the system locks you out in a reduced functionality mode which can be described as useless.

    The Second method; MAK isn't much better. basically MS handles the KMS for you. this means that you don't have to worry about traveling users not being disconnected from your network for too long since it works over the internet, but now MS is handling your activations, and you have to contact them every time you hit your quota in order to activate more windows. (which isn't as bad as it sounds. According to MS activation isn't counted against your licence count, and you can request indefinitely) However, if MS sees a huge activation spike. (say your activation rate average goes from 100 a day to 10000000 a day) they disable your key (which brings us to reduced functionality mode for all MAK'ed PC's) and then you must go to each and every MAK managed PC and change the key to a new one supplied by MS.

    So basically, to use Vista you either have a server on your network and pray no one's laptop cripples while their on a business trip, or you contact MS until the break of dawn and pray that no one pirates your key so you don't have to touch 1000 Crippled PC's with the Dreaded "YOU ARE A PIRATE!" message

    Office 2007, however, doesn't have the "YOU ARE A PIRATE!" system built in it and still has the old VLK licencing system like XP. I can guarantee that it's adoption in business is much higher than Vista. I know we're using it here, but Vista is sitting on the shelf.

  38. Deja vu by nsayer · · Score: 2, Informative
    Wow. A completely new OS with an emulation layer for backwards compatability? I seem to remember that that's happened before.

  39. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Interesting that MS users tend to be short-term orientated (won't put up with apps not working from one version of windows to the next), while OSX users tend to be long-term orientated (put up with the short term problems because they realize in the end, the better design is the right thing to do.)

  40. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would go that much credit for the Mac Comunity. There is just a smaller portion of them overall and many have been useing Macs for a long time because there is a smaller comunity base they tend to feel more personally bonded to Apple. Apple could sell iPoopOnAStick and probably 1/3 of the Apple Faithful will buy it. There are probably about the same number of Apple Zealots and Windows Zealots who will stick to their product no matter what... But because Winodws has far more users the number of Zealots is a lot less percentage wise then Mac Zealots. If you look at my guestimate windows would still be the dominate OS in market share, but there would be a large amount of people going different ways.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  41. easy by dweebzilla · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just implement a process that involves actually throwing out 2/3+ of all the features before coding, then cycle that about three or four times to let the really needed items rise to the top. Then simplify, simplify, simplify.

    "Just cause it fits in there - doesn't necessarily mean you should put it in there." ~ Words of wisdom from my sophomore roommate after 3 months of debauchery.

    --
    Get your tagline off my lawn.
  42. Re:10 years ago by FullMetalJester · · Score: 2, Informative

    on that note check out Altiris: http://www.altiris.com/

  43. An OS lesson from... STAR WARS??? by starglider29a · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm ambivalent, at best, about the 31 Flavors of Windows. But it raises an interesting point...

    Old computers that still kick A55 and would be a shame to throw out. I have a PIII-400 that stills does what it needs to, and a Mac 8500 that still does nearly everything I ask, except that IE Mac doesn't work on most sites. What we need to do, sometime <BLINK>REALLY SOON</BLINK> is to freeze a subset of computers and OS forever into an R2-Unit standard.

    Recall that the R2 unit loaded into Luke's X-wing was the SAME unit that Obi-Wan used. How likely is it that ANYTHING we have on a computer now will even physically plug in, let alone work in 40 years. Some computers can do 90% of what we need from now until at least 20 years from now. Can we PLEASE pick a set of standards and let that class of computer be supported? For example, ATA-100, USB 2.0 (or Firewire800, I don't care), DVI, RJ-45... I have peripherals in my garage with no computer capable of connecting them. I still have a copy of X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter... as if. Something. Anything.

    And Windows Whatever. XP, XT, 2KSP17. I don't care. That way, as we retire, the Geek Squad can say, "Do you want us to replace your computer? This one's seen a lot of wear." "Not on your life. That G4 Titanum and me have been through a lot together."


    PS: The blink tag was fake.

    1. Re:An OS lesson from... STAR WARS??? by Reziac · · Score: 2, Informative

      Clearly their technology both modular and standardized from top to bottom, whether you're the Death Star or a lowly R2 unit.

      The nearest equivalent in mundane computers is the serial or parallel port printer, which will attach to and work with just about any PC from any era. (We'll ignore the problem of driver availability for this discussion... tho I use the HPLJ2 driver across over 20 years worth of PCs and a dozen OSs, and it works with a wide variety of printers... so even that isn't an insoluble problem.)

      As to your parent post, this 8 year old computer I'm using agrees with you 100% -- it would really suck to have those years of faithful service rewarded by being relegated to the scrapheap, even tho it's still not only fully functional, but also does everything I really need done. After all, most of the time, the computer need only outpace the user's typing skills, since it spends most of its life waiting.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    2. Re:An OS lesson from... STAR WARS??? by starglider29a · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How many times have you heard a co-worker ask the IT guy...

      "I want to buy a computer. What should I get?"
      "What are you going to do with it?"
      "I dunno, email, surf the net, word processor... Is Dual COre 3GHz with a 500GB hard drive enough?"
      "You could do that on my kids PIII-400."

      A lot of great advances have shown up since '95. USB, 500GB drives, LCD monitors, Wireless networking, DVD burners. Sure, Moore's LAw has boosted CPU speeds 128 times. Hard drives and RAM has gone up nearly that much... But have our emails gotten 128X bigger? Do we send 128X more of them? Do I chat with 128X times as many people? My kids PIII can send a 10MB email attachment. It can download songs, and shove them onto his iPod. Have we aquired 500GB of music that we want to listen to? Monitors won't get much bigger. Are they 128X better resolution? I just threw out a bunch of PS/2 keyboards. We have USB, we have Bluetooth. Are we going to get a keyboard that works 128X times farther away in 10 years?

      I'm saying that when the last Dell with XP rolls off the line, it will still be able to connect, produce, download, rip, burn just as well in 10 years. So why upgrade? Because Belkin doesn't produce the USB to cranial-input standard adapter? Because some iPod Killer (titter titter) requires a 3-yo or less OS? Let's take that capability, and freeze it to an "R2-Standard"

      If Open Source wants to HELP, then form a standard to which code could be ported forever. Call it Windows 7734ever.

      Then, when I DO buy the Chronosynclastic Infindibulum Version of Windows XII, I can give my grandkids the Dual Core-3GHz and they may still be able to use it for something. Like watch YouTubeHD3D.

  44. Re:How about pulling a Mac? by jon_anderson_ca · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, they already do this:

    The compatibility fixes (also referred to as "shims" or "shim technology") contained in SysMain.sdb address common application compatibility problems when installing an application originally written for Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT 4.0, or Windows 2000. Fixes can provide simple solutions to the most common compatibility problems: For example, a fix might provide an older application with a previous operating system's credentials to enable the application to function properly. They can also be targeted at specific problems known to crop up with certain applicationssuch fixes might permit the operating system to ignore certain warnings or delay heap and memory release calls.

    There will be roughly 200 compatibility fixes included in the SysMain database file at the time of the Windows XP release. These treat most of the compatibility problems that were encountered during the development of Windows XP. ...

  45. Dimsal failure by theolein · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For Microsoft to be talking about the next Windows release so soon after its first main release in 6 years, Vista, and potentially putting customers off buying into Vista now, speaks legions about just how bad Vista adoption is going (notwithstanding fanboi propaganda FUD like the /. article comparing Vista to OSX marketshare). It says to me that Microsoft must really be panicking, badly.

  46. Is NT a good foundation? by stites · · Score: 2, Informative

    Thom Holwerda puts forward a convincing argument that Windows needs two operating systems, a backward compatible operating system and one on which future application development can be done. He is far less convincing in his contention that the Windows NT kernel is a good design for a long range committment as the basis for future software inovations at Microsoft.

    Windows development got into trouble through poor design. In order to bundle application with Windows Microsoft consistently designed applications to be non-modular. Pieces of each application were scattered throughout Microsoft code, including the kernel. This meant that the total bundled software package became more and more unwieldy as development progressed. Adding a new application entailed rewriting all Microsoft software instead of simply adding a new module containing the new functions on top of the existing stack. As Microsoft's software became more and more unwieldy the development effort slowed until in Longhorn it failed.

    Now Thom Holwerda is proposing that Microsoft start over by taking the NT kernel and throw all of the entertwined legacy code out of the kernel. This will make development on NT a lot easier. But what about the current set of applications? DRM will still be intertwined through the NT kernel and probably the other current applications will be also. This lack of modular design will still hamper development on NT even though by getting rid of the legacy code the development effort now becomes doable. And what of future applications? Are they going to be intertwined into the NT kernel just like the existing applications? If so, then the new NT development tree will eventually suffer a Longhorn like crisis serveral years down the road.

    Microsoft might be able to slough off a lot of legacy cruft by switching to a NT kernel with the legacy code removed but the basic design flaws remain to bedevil future development of Windows NT. Microsoft would be best off to design a new operating sytem from scratch and get rid of the lack of modularity once and for all.

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    Steve Stites

  47. Why? by Tom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why comment on "Windows 7" at all?

    It's obvious that MS is pushing the PR now in order to draw attention from Vista. Vista is a trainwreck, so they're playing the "look, shiney!" game.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  48. No. That won't help. by kinglink · · Score: 3, Insightful

    More choices is absolutely the WORST idea. We already have what? 5-6 variants of Windows and that's just English. Two completely different versions of windows each with X variants would just complicate the problem.

    What we need is Three things.

    A. Make features, not bullet points. This means give us features to help us. Not a newly designed interface that just looks pretty. Make stability and bug free a FEATURE. Look for features we can't get elsewhere, and ways for us to extend it. That means don't worry about firewalls (ship with Zonealarm) don't give us a weak anti-virus and pretend that's a major feature. Don't pretend "integrated music player" is a feature. Microsoft's current beliefs are bullet points are better than other goals. Games that run at 60 fps are more important than games that are "fun". Office suite that integrate perfectly are better than bug free. Get over it and get us actual innovation. And if you offer Backwards compatibility with old windows code make sure it's 100 percent Backwards compatibility before you ship.

    B. Ignore the side projects. Windows 7 is about WINDOWS not Media player, outlook, office, and the rest. Want to include those? Great make them bug free, and allow us to uninstall all of them, otherwise focus on Windows. Giving us 30 programs along with windows doesn't make you my friend, when I have to work around 29 of them to get MY functionality back.

    C. Cut the price, cut the fat. Two versions of Windows. Upgrade for 100 dollars, Full for 200 dollars. don't try to nickle and dime us saying "well ultimate has..." Ultimate has shit. Either an upgrade or full and make them AFFORDABLE. When Windows costs more than any of 4 tvs I own. (Including a 52 inch CRT) that's a problem.

    Vista died because no one needed it and no one wanted it, but Windows is slowly forcing it's bloated corpse on us. That's what caused the Vista Like release, an unwanted unneeded product who's only benefit is making Microsoft more money and looking pretty.

  49. Re:Coke Classic by popejeremy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Exactly. New Coke was actually better. Blind testing proved that people loved it. It failed because people were terrified and resentful of change. They didn't hate the soda. They hated the change. The very idea of change made a delicious beverage taste bad.

    There might be a lesson for those who long for large scale Linux adoption in that story.

  50. Re:Coke Classic by Hewhosaysni · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually "New Coke" did fail because of taste. When New Coke was "enginered" it was tested for marketability by with "sip tests" (i.e. people taking a sip of the drink and comparing it to other versions). "New Coke" was sweeter than "Original Coke", therefore more people prefered it to the other candidates when taking sip tests. But when "New Coke" was relesed and people drank the stuff for real the taste was too sweet to bare.