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PubPat Kills Four Key Monsanto Patents

IP Ergo Sum writes "PubPat's request for reexamination resulted in the rejection of four key Monsanto patents. According to PubPat, those particular patents were being used to 'harass, intimidate, sue — and in many cases bankrupt — American farmers.'"

102 of 436 comments (clear)

  1. victory! by The+Clockwork+Troll · · Score: 5, Funny

    VICTORY IS (nutra)SWEET.

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    There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
    1. Re:victory! by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Funny

      Is that the taste of "Mission Accomplished"?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:victory! by jank1887 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but only if you consume 50 times your body weight over a course of 2 weeks...

  2. Finally by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's about time - but attacking the patents one by one is not a real long term solution, changes to legislation is the only thing that can fix the problem of frivolous patents.

    --
    Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    1. Re:Finally by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      the problem with this is patents main goal is to protect little guys who come up with a good idea and want to stop someone else stealing it.

      increasing the cost of something will never stop companys with GDP's larger then many countries. you think a million dollars for a patent on a crop is a problem? fuck bio research companys SHIT $1000000 bricks, they will view it as a minor cost.

      the only way to prevent frivolous patents, is to put a very short time frame on profiting from a patent. say i come up with an idea for the wear it all night condom. i have 2 years to turn more then $20,000 profit from my idea, or it's out in the public domain for someone else to have a crack out. this works because even if some asshole patents this, we can just wait them out, knowing their just patent squating and the moment their 2 years is up it's open season. If i CAN turn a profit on it, then it's obvious that i'm doing something with the idea, hence deserve it.

      --
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    2. Re:Finally by rben · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have a different proposal, but I'm sure it has some problems I haven't thought of. How about you require all patent holders to license rights to their patents to anyone who pays a "fair and reasonable" royalty. (Determining that royalty is the sticky part.) This would insure that the patent holder got paid for their work developing the invention, and that there would be competition. It would end all these idiotic monopolies that distort our economy and allow free competition once more.

      The problem with patents is that they create monopolies. That makes them incredibly valuable. If you were forced to license your patent to competitors, you might focus more efforts on actually satisfying customers rather than suing for huge settlements.

      Of course, this might put a lot of lawyers out of work.

      --

      -All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
      www.ra

    3. Re:Finally by eric76 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My suggestions for patent reform:

      1) Toss out the entire patent if any claims are disallowed. The applicant can start over from scratch and refile. If disallowed a second time, do not permit the applicant to file on the patent or any variation of it ever again. This would encourage the applicant to be very conservative in what he claims.

      2) Remove the exclusitivity part of the notion of patents. Everyone who independently invents the same thing could get their own patent with the right to use, manufacture, or sell licenses to the invention.

      3) Before any patent lawsuit may proceed, reevaluate the patent for patentability with the same rigor as the original evaluation and invite the alleged infringer to provide comments and evidence. A patent owner could target more than one alleged infringer at the same time by inviting all of them to provide comments and evidence for the reevaluation of the patent.

      4) Award damages for willfull infringements only. If not limited to willfill infringements, give the infringer a statuatory period of time of at least one year to stop using the patent.

      5) Permit the patent office to require a working copy of any invention they do not believe has actually been built. If the applicant cannot provide a working copy, charge a $100,000 fee for wasting the patent office's time with nonsense inventions.

      6) If there is a question of whether or not the patent provides enough detail to build the patent, choose a person of ordinary skill in the art to build the invention from the patent application. The applicant would pay for all fees and costs involved.

      7) Encourage parties to any lawsuit or court action (not just patents) to use mediation by requiring the plaintiff to pay the attorneys fees for both sides. Only if the defendant refuses the mediation would he pay his own attorneys fees.

    4. Re:Finally by fermion · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Another way to look at patents is as a mechanism to facilitate the transfer of ideas to the public domain. Such a view is supported by the traditional requirement that a patent be detailed enough so someone versed in the appropriate techniques could reproduce the object being patented.

      Here are the two current options for an inventor. The first is to keep the process secret, and try to sell enough product before it is reversed engineered. Such an approach not only wastes a societies resources by shifted creative power from new problems to problems that have already been solved, but provides little predictability for business.

      The second option is the patent. Put the details of the product out in the public. Accept the protection of the government for 10 years. This gives a predictable interval in which to market the product. It also gives a predictable interval in which to improve the product so it can compete with any copies that might eventually be placed on the market. In exchange for such protection, other can use the ideas to develop new non-competing products immediately, and eventually develop copies of the product for wider consumption. This is a win/win for everyone as the inventor has time to exploit the product commercially, especially in today's mass produced market, and society is allowed to exploit the idea intellectually.

      Here is why I disagree with protecting the little guy, or anyone for that matter. First, it is difficult to define. A patent may be granted to a little guy, who may grow into a big guy or sell to a big guy. Is the patent to depend on this? Second, such reasoning lends itself to extend the period of patents, and even copyright for that matter. I would argue that given the reduction in production times, the patent and copyright time should be reduced, or altered based on production dates. For instance a drug might take 5-10 years to enter mass production, and therefore might need a longer patent, but one can imagine all sorts of other products that might only require a five year patent. Likewise, it is inconceivable that Disney has not already exploited the derivitive characters fully, and those characters should be put back in the public domain.

      By focusing on return on investment, rather than encouraging innovation in society, one gets into the situation where IP does in fact halt innovation, especially where a five year product cycle seems long.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  3. A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Bananatree3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Monopolies are at best bad for the market, and at worst bad for Humanity. In this case, Monsanto's monopolizing has caused a lot of grief for many traditional farmers who save the previous year's crop seeds. This kind of thing really makes me sick.

    1. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by 3.5+stripes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is that the frankenfood spreads pollen just like the normal plants, you can't filter pollen outdoors.

      --


      He tried to kill me with a forklift!
    2. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      True, and it's clearly the responsibility of those who DO sell and grow GM food to prevent it from spreading. If they can't do that, why then they should not be allowed to grow it.

      (Allowing sexually reproductive GM life in the first place seems to me to be a Very Bad Idea.)

    3. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Creating life has long been considered a bad move.

    4. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by logicnazi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really? Why?

      Why isn't it the responsibility of the non-GM crops to prevent their pollen from fertilizing the GM farmers crops? If I breed a new strain of corn using traditional techniques is it my responsibility to make sure that doesn't fertilize anyone else's corn as well?

      Don't get me wrong I agree that GM crops should require more extensive testing before they are declared safe but the idea that they can never be declared safe is just absurd. Of course we can't ever know something won't hurt us but that doesn't stop us from making reasonable calculations about risk. Of course biotech companies shouldn't be allowed to shut down a farmer just because his crops happened to get pollinated by GM material (I have no idea if this really happens) but that's just saying that we should treat GM crops sanely.

      Any chance from the past is a risk whether it is faster computers (they might take over!!) or a new variety of crops. Dogmatically insisting that no type of GM crop could ever be safe enough to be worth the risk of letting it's pollen out into the wild is just silly.

      In other words what's wrong with just deciding about each GM crop on a case by case basis using the best available science at the time (including the certainty we have in that science)?

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    5. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I hate to be a jerk, but I have to question why the farmers just don't stick to their traditional crops (versus the GM versions) if Monsanto is so horrible. Not one is forcing them to buy GM seeds (they could have kept saving and resuing their old seeds forever, without having to buy anything from Monsanto). So either buying Monsanto seeds isn't a losing deal (i.e. the farmers still make more money than they would have otherwise) or the farmers have poor judgement. Am I missing something?

    6. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by kestasjk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      frankenfood Frankenfood? You mean food that doesn't need to be sprayed with (as much) pesticide because it's biologically resistant to insects?

      Genetic engineers notice an organism that does something that would be useful in another organism. If possible they isolate the protein(s) that create the useful effect. They then isolate the DNA that expresses that protein. They then insert that DNA into the other organism, and the protein is subsequently produced in the other organism.

      Genetic engineering is just a way of putting useful proteins from one organism into another. Agriculture on a modern scale doesn't stand a chance without either genetic engineering or massive amounts of fertilizer and pesticide.

      Genetic engineering isn't "natural", but then again agriculture itself isn't "natural". If you consider genetic engineering a "frankenfood" what about the walking udders, walking fur coats, unnaturally sized fruits, bizarre inbred wolves, etc, etc. Just because that genetic engineering was done with artificial selection doesn't make it any less natural.

      If you want natural; starve, along with the billions of others that this planet couldn't naturally support. I have no idea what people have against genetic engineering. (Though I completely understand anti-Monsanto sentiment of course)
      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    7. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by jimicus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Monopolies are at best bad for the market

      The whole point of a patents system is limited monopolies to help the market. Without such a system, there's nothing stopping me from spending 10 years in a shed developing a revolutionary new vacuum cleaner, bringing it to market - and then you waltzing into a shop, buying one, copying it and selling it for half the price I do.

      The point of a capitalist society is that the "10 years in a shed" bit gets rewarded with a time-limited monopoly, so instead of simply putting up with the status quo and accepting that all vacuum cleaners suck (if you'll pardon the pun), I have an incentive to do something about it above and beyond "making my house 4% cleaner".

      Where monopolies do harm the market is where the system is abused. The obvious solution to that is a system which isn't terribly open to abuse. Many of today's patent laws were put together at a time when nobody imagined that a company might patent a genetically modified seed and then sue farmers for saving some from last years' crop for this year, or that a huge economy around software (which changes far faster than many other fields of innovation, and is thus not well served by 15-20 year monopolies) would develop.

    8. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The output of the GM crops are that much better. Thats why. When you spend X dollars to plant on the finite amounts of land you have control over and can plant the GM crops that not only increase yields by 30+ percent but cut cost on the X figures by needing less chemicals or pesticides the amount of monetary advantage they present is almost insane.

      The people who are using the regular crops are traditionalist or people who see a use/market for the crops. Most of the people I know who are against the GM crops and are actually farmers are in that position because of the contracts and not any perceived threats from the genetic managment of the seeds. They don't like the idea of having to pay extra for seeds if they have a bad year.

    9. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by ray-auch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If I breed a new strain of corn using traditional techniques is it my responsibility to make sure that doesn't fertilize anyone else's corn as well?

      Not normally - but then you aren't suing those others for having corn fertilized by your corn are you ?

      If you use a water sprayer to irrigate your land, is it your responsibility to make sure the water doesn't go onto my land ? Probably not. However, if you spray onto my land and then sue me for using your water, I ought to be within my rights to tell you it _is_ your responsibility to keep your water on your land.

    10. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Slayer · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sorry dude, but Mosanto's crops don't work like that. Instead they made their crops resistant to a certain herbicide. Farmers who use their crops can use that herbicide (called roundup, also owned by Mosanto) without hurting their own crops.

      It has been proven scientifically that genes can spread across species (doesn't happen often but does), so who's going to be responsible if bad herbs become resistant and would have to be weeded out manually ? You think the world can't support its populace (which is definitely not true. Starving is not causes by drought or poor harvest, it's caused by war and corrupt politicians in the countries affected). But we definitely will have a problem if decades of herbicide research go to waste because one greedy irresponsible company releases random genes out into our environment.

      If Mosanto and their brethen cared about world hunger they wouldn't sue farmers for using grain that happened to have been fertilized with their GM pollen. At the moment it appears that GM is not bad by itself but it is unprofitable unless you employ highly questionable business tactics.

    11. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by CmdrGravy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can't think of any product which has Y and would really benefit from X but doesn't have it. In any case in that scenario the maker of product Y would license the patent for X so that they could use it in their product and the consumer would get what they want. This is why you can have MP3 players in one unit rather than companies selling the battery, the headphones, the decoder chip, the circuit boards all seperately.

      In a market without patents any new innovations or products would immediately be ripped off by the biggest company with the most money and manufacturing power and the original inventor would be screwed. Pretty soon people wouldn't share their inventions any more if they could actually keep the workings secret and if they couldn't they have trouble making any money from them so in the end no one would really bother.

    12. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by misanthrope101 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, if GM crops push out non-GM owned by you on your own land, you can sue the designers. If someone's non-GM crops push out your GM crops, you can sue the designer. That would be God, per the 90% of the population that believes in Him. Good luck with that. I hear the appeals process leaves a bit to be desired.

    13. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Genetic engineering isn't "natural", but then again agriculture itself isn't "natural". Don't be naive. The whole "genetic engineering is just another form of selective breeding" argument is pure bunk.

      Genetic engineering enables changes that would take multiple generations to create and then even more generations to attain wide-spread use to happen in the span of a single generation.

      So if a particular inbred line of "walking udders" were to product deficient milk, the damage would be very localized before it was noticed and corrected. But a particular line of genetically engineered corn might make it into every box of breakfast cereal in the country for a couple of years running before people notice that it is shrinking the pensis of our youth.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    14. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by kestasjk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At the moment it appears that GM is not bad by itself but it is unprofitable unless you employ highly questionable business tactics. Good points, but my post doesn't contradict it. I was just arguing that genetic engineering isn't a bad thing in itself, I still think that Monsanto is the evil twin of Microsoft in the agriculture industry.
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      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    15. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      f you want natural; starve, along with the billions of others that this planet couldn't naturally support.,/p>

      Enough food is grown on the planet for everybody to eat a healthy diet, without resorting to GM Food. Starvation is the result of not distributing food to where it can be used. Famines are the result of governments playing political games with their population.

      Amber

      --
      Wind Beneath Thy Wings
    16. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why the farmers just don't stick to their traditional crops (versus the GM versions)

      Because their seed rep lies to them about the source and type of seed that they are buying. If the farmer has done the traditional save seeds each crop, then they might be able to replant without having to buy seeds. Even so,if there is a GM crop within 20 kilometers of their farm, their crop will be poisoned by the GM crop.

      No one is forcing them to buy GM seeds

      In Third world countries, the decision to grown GM crops is made in Washington DC. It is not made by the local farmer. US Foreign Aid, The World Bank, and other organizations that ostensibly help developing nations inflict policies on those countries that have one purpose --- to maximize the revenue of multinational megacorporations, and ensure that the "developing countries" remains serfs of the megacorporations.

      Food is a weapon that the united states is not shy about using.

      The output of the GM crops are that much better.

      For the first six or so years. Then crop production drops, and ten years later it is less than a quarter of what it was when GM production started. In some instances, it doesn't even take a decade for the "permanent crop failure" effect to kick in.

      Amber

      --
      Wind Beneath Thy Wings
    17. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You mean food that doesn't need to be sprayed with (as much) pesticide because it's biologically resistant to insects?



      I think you meant to say: Food that can be sprayed a lot more liberally with herbicides because it's resistant to them.


      See Round-Up (tm) and Round-Up Ready (tm) seeds. Both by Monsanto, by pure coincidence, of course.

    18. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by enrevanche · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What a pile of corporate propaganda.

      Monsanto genetically modifies food so that it can get the farmer both ways, buying the seed and the tons of additional herbicide.

      We evolved in the same biosphere as insects, so changes to a plant to prevent the insect from being able to eat them may also have effects on us. These are not properly tested. They should require many years of observation on animals feed these foods for a long time before they should be allowed on

      None of these changes are tested properly. Monsanto is one the "Agent Orange" corporations. Their "research" cannot be trusted. They've lied when they knew about grave health issues with their product. They continued to sell it even though it caused substantial harm to thousands of GIs and probably millions of Vietnamese. (And this is the tip of the iceberg concerning Monsanto.)

      GMOs are designed for one reason, to make money. They do not care what the long term effect is as long as they can spin it. These foods are not designed to help the worlds poor, but to sell more product, to make farmers dependent on it, to add the food supply to the ever growing list of things that a few corporations control.

      This is all marketing hype, there is no need for GMOs.

      By the way, starvation is caused mostly by policy, not technology. There is more than sufficient food production. Maybe you should look into how the IMF & World Bank among others force third world countries into producing export crops, often even during times of starvation.

    19. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by calcapt · · Score: 5, Informative

      At the moment, I have to call total BS. What you're saying is non factual and irresponsbile alarmist talk.

      There's little to no evidence whatsoever that GMO's are killing bees. Some scientists are worried about a link, but it's highly unlikely. Bt insect resistance doesn't even target bee species; it targets lepidoptera, diptera and coleoptera. In otherwords, butterflys/moths, flys, and beetles. What order are honey bees in? Hymenoptera.

      Furthermore, resistant plants target the larvae of susceptible insects; these bugs ingest the Bt protein, which is only toxic in basic insect midguts, and forms pores and destroys their gut. Do honey bee larvae grow on plants? No, I didn't think so. And while they do ingest pollen that worker bees bring back to hives, tests have shown that pollen with Bt is not toxic at all. [http://www.gmo-safety.eu/en/safety_science/68.doc u.html] These were done by giving adult bees and larvae Bt pollen at 100x normal concentrations.

      To sum it up, honey bees are fine after contact with Bt crops. Even larvae, which are Bt corn targets in susceptible species, were fine. Long story short, we're going to have to keep looking for a cause for CCD, and people need to stop screaming, "OMFGIT'SGMOS!" at the first sign of trouble. It's completely irresponsible, especially when there are more likely reasons for CCD, such as pathogens with extremely deleterious effects to colony health.

    20. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 2, Informative

      I can't think of any product which has Y and would really benefit from X but doesn't have it.

      Linux distributions would benefit from legal playback of data stored in various proprietary codecs.

      Pretty soon people wouldn't share their inventions any more if they could actually keep the workings secret and if they couldn't they have trouble making any money from them so in the end no one would really bother.

      I don't believe that. Most inventions made to solve a problem are obvious after the fact ("why didn't I think of that?"), and in most cases patenting an invention does not improve income. People don't learn new things by trolling patent archives; instead, developers avoid patent archives in order to minimize liability.

    21. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Sorry dude, but Mosanto's crops don't work like that. Instead they made their crops resistant to a certain herbicide. Farmers who use their crops can use that herbicide (called roundup, also owned by Mosanto) without hurting their own crops."
      You are partially correct. Monsanto's crops "do work like that." They also have bt corn that protects against corn borers among other pests. Using bt corn, especially in corn on corn or 3rd year corn situations, allows you to get away with using no pesticides in some situations. These traits may also be "stacked". You can have RoundUp Ready corn that also has the bt gene. A note about RoundUp which you mentioned was owned by Monsanto. The corn is actually resistant to the chemical glysophate which is commercially available is hundreds of generic forms (Buccaneer Plus, Touchdown Total, etc...) and these are perfectly safe to spray on RoundUp ready corn or Roundup ready soybeans so you don't have to double pay Monsanto. The specific traits in the seed are also licensed to just about every major player in the seed market although a technology fee does go to Monsanto(in the US anyway).
      I live in Wisconsin and work at a feed mill/grain elevator and am licensed to apply pesticides to agricultural crops so this is a subject I understand. By the way Monsanto is a major pain in the backside to deal with even for legit businesses selling there products.

    22. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Throughout the western world the board of directors of a publicly traded company are required to obey the (legal) wishes of the majority of the shareholders, it's not hard to guess what people are wishing for when they invest in the stock market.

      If you don't like the behaviour of company X then don't invest in the shares or purchase their products - the problem is that if you have superanuation or a pension fund then you probably have already invested in company X and if company X has a monopoly on the food/water supply it's kinda hard to avoid the product.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    23. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by tjwhaynes · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At the moment it appears that GM is not bad by itself but it is unprofitable unless you employ highly questionable business tactics. Good points, but my post doesn't contradict it. I was just arguing that genetic engineering isn't a bad thing in itself, I still think that Monsanto is the evil twin of Microsoft in the agriculture industry.

      I think you should re-read your post.

      Frankenfood? You mean food that doesn't need to be sprayed with (as much) pesticide because it's biologically resistant to insects?

      Maybe you were referring to some other GM-modification but Roundup Ready crops are engineered to be more resistant to Roundup herbicide, allowing it to be sprayed more heavily than would otherwise be the case. Roundup Ready is a classic example of monopoly-bundling leveraging one product to increase sales of another. Roundup is also a key ingredient on the massively successful *cough* "War on drugs" as it is purchased in quantity by the US Government for spraying on South American fields to destroy the Coca crops.

      And if that didn't scare you enough, consider this. 13 states have already reported Glyphosate-resistance in weeds. How long do you think it will take for the Coca crops to become Glyphosate-resistant? Glyphosate has only been available for 30 years, so any resistance is a new phenomenon.

      Cheers,
      Toby Haynes

      --
      Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
    24. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Lockejaw · · Score: 2, Funny

      This isn't quite a precedent, but it's certainly close enough to be relevant.

      --
      (IANAL)
    25. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The whole point of a patents system is limited monopolies to help the market.
      That's the intent, to be sure, but I think the parent's claim is that patents fail to achieve this.

      Without such a system, there's nothing stopping me from spending 10 years in a shed developing a revolutionary new vacuum cleaner, bringing it to market - and then you waltzing into a shop, buying one, copying it and selling it for half the price I do.
      That's the scenario patent advocates love to trot out, but try offering concrete examples and statistics, not hypotheticals. (Such as how patents allowed James Watt to retard the progress of the steam engine for decades, perhaps?)

      The point of a capitalist society is that the "10 years in a shed" bit gets rewarded with a time-limited monopoly...
      Whoa there, bucko. That's the "point" of patents, not of a "capitalist society." The "point" of capitalism, insofar as there can be said to be one, is that people trading freely with each other makes everyone better off. You'll no doubt notice that "trading freely" kind of conflicts with government-granted monopolies.

      Where monopolies do harm the market is where the system is abused. The obvious solution to that is a system which isn't terribly open to abuse.
      To me, the "obvious" answer is that such a system is not possible, because the underlying idea is fundamentally flawed (not to mention unjust).
    26. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by kestasjk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't be naive. The whole "genetic engineering is just another form of selective breeding" argument is pure bunk. I never said it was, I only said that neither of them are natural. What is bunk is the widely held belief that a farmer with his combine 'arvester and ear 'o corn is a natural, one with the earth, age old arrangement.

      Genetic engineering enables changes that would take multiple generations to create and then even more generations to attain wide-spread use to happen in the span of a single generation.

      So if a particular inbred line of "walking udders" were to product deficient milk, the damage would be very localized before it was noticed and corrected. But a particular line of genetically engineered corn might make it into every box of breakfast cereal in the country for a couple of years running before people notice that it is shrinking the pensis of our youth. The proteins that get introduced into these plants pass through our digestive system, a protein isn't about to get through your digestive system in-tact and be able to do damage.
      The worst I've heard a GM food doing is triggering an allergic reaction, and one that wasn't particularly severe. This was the main "it's bad for you" example trotted out in an anti-GM video, so I doubt it gets much worse than that.

      Anyone who's scared of GM food making their penis fall off, or having any adverse health effect on them, is simply ignorant of what the differences are between GM and non-GM food. There are good arguments that can be made against GM food, but most are to do with patents.
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      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    27. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by jsebrech · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you scrap the whole thing you're left with only the negative effects and none of the positive ones which people are currently enjoying.

      Not true. If you scrap it, you remove all the costs involved with the patent system, like ineffective markets, delayed introduction of some categories of products (especially software is delayed strongly under the influence of a patent system), and spurious litigation by patent owners.

      You're assuming that the current system has no positive benefits at all which I believe is not the case. I agree the patent system is open to abuse, particulary in the area of software but I also think a lot of people have used the patent system in the way it was intended and reaped benefits from it.

      Let me put it like this: what study or source of reliable data do you use as a basis for your idea that the patent system is a net benefit to society?

      I am in fact personally in favor of scrapping the patent system, because I've never heard anyone make a sensible case for why it should be kept. Yes, it has benefits, but those benefits come at, to me, a greater cost than they are worth. You don't need a patent system to have innovation. A free market will force people to innovate or fall behind. And for those things that aren't profitable without monopolies: put them in the hands of government. If you're going to have an inefficient mandatory monopoly, let it be one that people can vote out of office rather than one they have zero control over.

    28. Re:A great step, but only a small battle won.... by jc42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>nobody imagined that a company might patent a genetically modified seed and then sue farmers for saving some from last years' crop for this year

      This has nothing to do with a patent; it's a licensing issue. Farmers want to continue doing business in the "old ways" while reaping the benefits of new tech.


      Actually, it's a combination of patent and licensing. And the issue has farmers around the world somewhat nervous. Google for "Monsanto Percy Schmeiser". Mr. Schmeiser claims (and such evidence as exists supports him) that he didn't buy Monsanto's GM canola seed; he had been breeding his own local varieties. But his neighbors grew Monsanto seed, and Roundup-resistant canola plants were found in his fields, so he was sued by Monsanto for patent infringement.

      He has spent part of his time since then talking to people around the world about the issue. What scares people is that it's not possible to prevent cross pollination of most crops, so if your neighbor grows a crop that contains patented DNA, you can be sued into bankruptcy by a giant foreign-owned corporation. There's a serious threat that such corporations could end up owning much of the farmland in any country where DNA patents are upheld by local courts.

      This is why, for example, a number of countries in Africa have stopped accepting any whole GM grains as food aid. They only accept ground grain, which can't be grown. If they allow GM grain into their country, it may alleviate current hunger problems, but the long-term cost will be foreign ownership of much of their farmland.

      You may not take this seriously, but a lot of people around the world do.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  4. be fruitful....... by innatetech · · Score: 2, Interesting
  5. Re:Naaaah by MrNaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yea, it's one step forward after the 2,401,323 steps we've taken back in the last few years!

    --
    I hate printers.
  6. Re:mirror request by sodul · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not a mirror but a short article on the case here.

  7. Patents on life are STUPID. by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Patenting / copyright / other methods to articifially control something being copied are STUPID when applied to an entity who's sole purpose is to make copies of itself.

    --
    There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    1. Re:Patents on life are STUPID. by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Heh, attempting to turn any non-rivalrous good into a rivalrous good is doomed to failure.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
  8. Patents in question by evanbd · · Score: 4, Informative

    5164316: DNA construct for enhancing the efficiency of transcription

    5196525: DNA construct for enhancing the efficiency of transcription

    5322938: DNA construct for enhancing the efficiency of transcription

    5352605: Chimeric genes for transforming plant cells using viral promoters

    Yes, the first three have the same title. I haven't read any of them yet. You can find the full text on the USPTO web site. Search by patent number here.

  9. Re:mirror request by eclectro · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is another article to tide you over until the tech details are available again. It seems that they are centered around the roundup ready seeds.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  10. The impact is much bigger in India... by jkrise · · Score: 4, Insightful

    70% of the Indian population is dependant on agriculture for their livelihood - it was closer to 80% a few decades ago. Monsanto has tied up with Indian companies, and it's business practices have driven several hundreds of farmers to debts and suicide. BT (Biologically Treated) cotton from Mahyco (if I remember right) has caused havoc in farmers' lives in several Indian states.

    Monsanto specialises in technologies that make farmers dependant on these firms every year for seeds and patented techniques. Not only should such patents be outlawed; it should be made a crime to work against nature and create genetic modifications that prevent seeds from germinating.

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    1. Re:The impact is much bigger in India... by jkrise · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sterile organisms are used in legitimate science all the time, and for a lot of reasons. For example, fruit fly populations in some places are controlled by introducing large numbers of sterilized males; or in testing genetically modified crops, sterilized seeds have a much lower risk of being accidentally introduced into the wild.
       

      I feel there are so many other techniques, that are even more effective in producing desired results you have stated above - without genetically inducing sterility.

      In any case, Monsanto's modus operandi is to introduce a BT variety of a seed, and claim it generates 30% more yield than normal varieties. But the catch is that seeds cannot be re-used, and the claims of increased yield are often spurious. Worse, these genetic strains propogate through pollen, affecting crops which were raised traditionally.

      We aren't talking about fruit-flies and pests, we are talking about cash crops, commercial crops and livelihoods - not only of this generation, but posterity.

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    2. Re:The impact is much bigger in India... by CmdrGravy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Organic farms also produce plenty of food in 3rd world countries - they're just not all of one sort of food and labour intensive (but labour is cheap in those places).


      I think the goal is that people don't have to live as cheap labourers working the land all day, this sort of work is not actually much fun and uses up people who could be working in factories and industry modernising the country and bringing all the benefits of cheap power, mass industrialisation, improved communications and travel.

  11. Second try by jeti · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sorry. Missed a paragraph when pasting. Here's the relevant text:

    The largest recorded judgment made thus far in favor of Monsanto as
    a result of a farmer lawsuit is $3,052,800.00. Total recorded judgments
    granted to Monsanto for lawsuits amount to $15,253,602.82. Farmers have
    paid a mean of $412,259.54 for cases with recorded judgments.
    Startling though these numbers are, they do not begin to tell the whole
    story. Many farmers have to pay additional court and attorney fees and are
    sometimes even forced to pay the costs Monsanto incurs while investigating
    them. Final monetary awards are not available for a majority of the 90 lawsuits
    CFS researched due to the confidential nature of many of the settlements.
    No farmer is safe from the long reach of Monsanto. Farmers have
    been sued after their field was contaminated by pollen or seed from someone
    else's genetically engineered crop; when genetically engineered seed from a
    previous year's crop has sprouted, or "volunteered," in fields planted with
    non-genetically engineered varieties the following year; and when they
    never signed Monsanto's technology agreement but still planted the patented
    crop seed. In all of these cases, because of the way patent law has been
    applied, farmers are technically liable. It does not appear to matter if the use
    was unwitting or a contract was never signed.

  12. Could farmers turn the tables? by beanless · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've read reports of farmers being sued by Monsanto because their crops get contaminated by GM strains via wind, animals, or farm equipment. Could the farmers sue Monsanto for polluting their crops' gene pool?

    1. Re:Could farmers turn the tables? by cliffski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      in theory maybe, but farmers tend not to have the kind of finances or legal muscle required to take on a corporate entity the size of monsanto.
      Really, it should be the governments job to keep an eye on situations like this, but when the political parties are allowed to take corporate donations, the whole system is b0rked before you start.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
  13. Re:Naaaah by KillerCow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The little guy who grows the same crops as his grandfather had no problem to begin with.


    You're obviously not up-to-speed with Monsanto. What happens is that a neighboring field cross-pollinates, or some seeds blow off of a passing truck, and all of a sudden, your "grandfather's strain" has been contaminated with the patented Monsanto genes. Somehow, they test your field and they sue you. You can't argue with the DNA, so you are SOL and they shut you down, even though you never wanted their genes to start with.
  14. Re:mirror request by indy_Muad'Dib · · Score: 3, Informative

    years ago Monsanto actually got Fox News to kill a story about the adverse effects of BGH (Bovine Growth Hormone) in Humans.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axU9ngbTxKw

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&o i=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=monsanto+BGH+fox +news&spell=1

    http://www.foxbghsuit.com/

    the reporters got shit canned for it and Monsanto protected their bottom line.

    Milk is very bad for you with all this BGH in it.

    Causes Cancer.

  15. Re:Naaaah by donaldm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think you as the farmer growing normal crops could sue (IANL) for cross pollination but from what I can gather genetically modified plants should not cross pollinate. I do think that the "law" would require the farmer to prove he was innocent since it very easy for the producer of the genetic strain to prove that the farmer has their strain.

    On a side note, From what I can gather the patent on GM grain is from 1994 (I thought it went further back than that) so there is still 7 years to go, however there are many groups and even nations opposing GM grains and other GM products. Monsanto really comes across as a company that does not care about anything except being a monopoly that controls all the world's food supply. It has even gone so far as patenting pigs http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/monsa nto-pig-patent-111.

    --
    There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
  16. Re:Naaaah by NearlyHeadless · · Score: 2, Informative

    You're obviously not up-to-speed with Monsanto. What happens is that a neighboring field cross-pollinates, or some seeds blow off of a passing truck, and all of a sudden, your "grandfather's strain" has been contaminated with the patented Monsanto genes. Somehow, they test your field and they sue you. You can't argue with the DNA, so you are SOL and they shut you down, even though you never wanted their genes to start with.
    One Canadian farmer, Percy Schmeiser claimed that, but that claim was rejected by the courts.

    In the cases that are cited in the press release the acts are all intentional.

  17. Re:Just Hope it Stays Patents by nagora · · Score: 2
    Purpose? Bacteria don't have a purpose they just do what they do.

    I think it's a given that the purpose of any biological system is to reproduce; mules are a freak.

    I don't see any different between patenting instructions for the biological machines in our cells and for the silicon machines in our computers.

    Indeed: patenting software is a bad idea whatever the context.

    Maybe we will get lucky and the net effect will be to take software from copyright protection and put it under patent protection

    That's the sort of luck the world can do without. Patent duration would be extended to 100+ years within a month.

    TWW

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  18. short-sighted by misanthrope101 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If GM crops nudge out the conventional ones, eventually we'll be in a position where a company can starve millions of people to death at will. Legally. And since capitalism essentially equates morality with legality and profitability, who will really argue with them? People really, really need to watch The Corporation. I'm all about making a buck, but we really, really need re re-evaluate what we let corporations get away with. Do even the most materialistic among us really want a private corporation owning not only the food, but the capacity of the plants to reproduce?

    1. Re:short-sighted by NearlyHeadless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If GM crops nudge out the conventional ones, eventually we'll be in a position where a company can starve millions of people to death at will. Legally.


      That's just silly. There are lots of different kinds of seeds and lots of different kinds of crops. The patents in this case would all expire by 2011 even if they are eventually found valid.
    2. Re:short-sighted by wwahammy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think that's an unrealistic result. All international patent agreements allow countries to ignore patents in national emergencies (which South Africa and Brazil have done regarding AIDS drugs). Additionally, as another replier said, the patents just don't last that much longer even if they are valid. On top of that, there's nothing preventing a farmer for getting any number of older crops that yield nearly as well.

      I tend to think the patent system should be scrapped but I don't think we're at immediate risk of starving to death because of it.

    3. Re:short-sighted by the+not-troll · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In which case they simply stop selling that crop and sell a different one which isn't protected by patents. That already happened with some crops, by the way.

      Of course, after the patents run out, it will be legal to keep the seeds of the former year for the next one - no wait, it won't, because the end of the patent protection doesn't mean that the license ends.

      Also, terminator genes will be used to make it not only illegal but impossible. This way, everyone has to buy from them, or they aren't economically viable (as GM crops have higher yield and therefore are more cost effective - until the prices are raised because there isn't anything else anymore).

      So, the GP is correct, though he may be understating the problems a bit.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, government controls corporations.
      In Capitalist America, corporations control government.
  19. Monsanto is not your friend by cromano · · Score: 5, Informative

    For an interesting look at the Monsanto history, GM foods, gene patenting, risks and impact across North America, I recommend you watch the documentary "The Future of Food" (torrent).

    Description:

    THE FUTURE OF FOOD offers an in-depth investigation into the disturbing truth behind the unlabeled, patented, genetically engineered foods that have quietly filled U.S. grocery store shelves for the past decade.

    From the prairies of Saskatchewan, Canada to the fields of Oaxaca, Mexico, this film gives a voice to farmers whose lives and livelihoods have been negatively impacted by this new technology. The health implications, government policies and push towards globalization are all part of the reason why many people are alarmed by the introduction of genetically altered crops into our food supply.

    Shot on location in the U.S., Canada and Mexico, THE FUTURE OF FOOD examines the complex web of market and political forces that are changing what we eat as huge multinational corporations seek to control the world's food system. The film also explores alternatives to large-scale industrial agriculture, placing organic and sustainable agriculture as real solutions to the farm crisis today.

    IMDB link. [imdb.com] ... and don't get me started on the "terminator gene".

    -Sin Maíz no hay País-

  20. Feudalism... by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 4, Informative

    I hate to be a jerk, but I have to question why the farmers just don't stick to their traditional crops (versus the GM versions) if Monsanto is so horrible. Not one is forcing them to buy GM seeds (they could have kept saving and resuing their old seeds forever, without having to buy anything from Monsanto). So either buying Monsanto seeds isn't a losing deal (i.e. the farmers still make more money than they would have otherwise) or the farmers have poor judgement. Am I missing something?

    It seems to me that a lot of them are pretty much suckered into it. They are made to think that this is the latest thing in modern agriculture and that it will benefit them with higher crop yields and thus higher profit margins. To people who are often already having trouble turning a profit this is hard to refuse. Not that is easy to get your hands on unmodified seed stock any more. To add insult to injury even if you inadvertently planted GM seeds you are also fucked. To quote TFA:

    American farmers are hard pushed to find high quality, conventional varieties of corn, soy and cottonseed. Anecdotal evidence supports this. Troy Roush, an Indiana soybean farmer says, "You can't even purchase them in this market. They are not available." Similar reports come from the corn and cotton farmers who say, "There are not too many seeds available that are not genetically altered in some way.".....

    .....Farmers are under pressure to confirm their identity as modern agriculturalists, particularly in developing countries. But replacing the traditional strategy of saving and replanting seeds from diverse varieties by a patented seed with all its restrictions threatens food security at household and global levels......

    .....A further example is seed dealers who sell seeds in plain brown bags so farmers sow them unknowingly. This happened to Farmer Thomason who was harassed into court by Monsanto and sued for over a million dollars. He had no choice but to file for bankruptcy despite never intending to plant Bt cotton.

    Here's another choice quote:

    Researchers at the University of Manitoba, Canada tested 33 samples of certified canola (oilseed rape) seed stock and 32 were contaminated with GM. The Union of Concerned Scientists tested traditional US seed stocks of corn, soy and canola and found 50% corn, 50% soy and 83% canola contaminated by GM.

    One hundred percent purity is no longer achievable, and even if non-contaminated seed could be purchased, some contamination can take place in the field either by transfer of seed by wind, animals or via farm equipment.

    Monsanto dominates the sale of seed stocks yet puts the onus of finding markets for crops on the farmer. Within their contract is the "Technology Use Guide" which gives directions on how to find grain handlers willing to accept crops not approved for use in the EU. While Monsanto acknowledges that pollen flow and seed movement are sufficient to contaminate neighbouring non-GM fields their implicit rule is that "the growers of the non-GM crops must assume responsibility and receive the benefit for ensuring that their crops meet specifications for purity.".....

    .....Outcomes of lawsuits brought by Monsanto against farmers are mostly kept under wraps. If farmers are tempted to breach confidentiality they can face fines greater than the settlements. But where judgments have been publicly recorded, sizeable payments benefit not only Monsanto, but also partner companies.

    Combined financial penalties have forced many farmers into bankruptcy and off their land. Agriculture is suffering losses all around because of the disappearance of foreign markets. The US Farm Bureau estimates that farmers lose over $300 million a year because European markets refuse GM corn. The US State Department says that as much as $4 billion could be lost in agricultural exports due to EU labelling and traceability requirements. Organic and conventional farmers

    --
    Only to idiots, are orders laws.
    -- Henning von Tresckow
  21. Re:Naaaah by erroneus · · Score: 4, Informative

    Until recently, that hasn't been successful. You really haven't been following this tragic, unreported story-line. See, their [Monsanto] lawyers are bigger than the farmers' lawyers and that's who has historically won. So on one hand, when they sue for their accidental contamination, they use various arguments such as "it can't be helped, it's nature and nature's function" or "these GM seeds had made your crops better and we counter-sue" or "no, you must have stolen it! and we counter-sue" and on and on.

  22. Re:Naaaah by xaxa · · Score: 5, Informative
    This article: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/MonsantovsFarmers.php suggests otherwise.
     

    Researchers at the University of Manitoba, Canada tested 33 samples of certified canola (oilseed rape) seed stock and 32 were contaminated with GM. The Union of Concerned Scientists tested traditional US seed stocks of corn, soy and canola and found 50% corn, 50% soy and 83% canola contaminated by GM.
    One hundred percent purity is no longer achievable, and even if non-contaminated seed could be purchased, some contamination can take place in the field either by transfer of seed by wind, animals or via farm equipment.

    It goes on to say that because of cross-contamination 'organic' crops often aren't organic any more.
  23. Re:Naaaah by MrMr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're probably both right: The EU treats unwanted GM-cross pollination as bio-terrorist rape, while the US considers anything that might reduce the profit of a paying supporter as an attempt to overthrow the best government money can buy.

  24. Re:Why Is There Such Opposition To Biological Pate by 3.5+stripes · · Score: 2, Informative

    Because they use them irresponsibly, if they made their GM crops sterile, that's fine. They don't though, so their patented GM genes end up in the crops of people who chose not to use their seeds. Since the genes are their property, they feel that they are entitled to money for them, and end up suing the farmers who used their products either unknowingly, or even unwillingly.

    Being able to own a product that autoreproduces by design, uncontrollable by the patent owner, is bad. Sort of the viral infection that people always associate with GPL software, except in this case, it's really hard to not chose to use their products.

    --


    He tried to kill me with a forklift!
  25. Re:Why Is There Such Opposition To Biological Pate by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do I feel the need to feed the trolls?

    Because there's a chance that you're making a sincere argument? Yeah, probably...

    If Monsanto's GM patented genes were "containable" then I would say there's good argument for your side of this. But the problem lies and always has lied in it being uncontainable. Accidents of all sorts have happened and worse. One of Monsanto's tests is to kill a section of a farmer's field. If it doesn't die, then it contains their GM patented genes. (If the witch floats...) There is pollination as a problem... the GM patented gene plants give even if they don't receive. And seeds ALSO have a way of blowing in the wind in the cases where the seed IS the product like wheat.

    But ultimately, there are far too many innocent people being harmed by this one corporation. This one corporation, by itself, has managed to harm humanity in ways that are simply unprecedented. If you truly believe that the value of money is of higher importance than that of the future of humanity, you need to rethink your position on this since the odds are good that you are also human.

    Just as patents on medicines are used to deprive people unable to pay for it from life, these patents on food are used to deprive people unable to defend themselves growing their own crops.

    There's an entire planet out here that doesn't care about "the value of a stock" and the systems of nature do no ask permission from lawyers.

  26. Re:Naaaah by NearlyHeadless · · Score: 4, Informative

    Until recently, that hasn't been successful. You really haven't been following this tragic, unreported story-line. See, their [Monsanto] lawyers are bigger than the farmers' lawyers and that's who has historically won. So on one hand, when they sue for their accidental contamination, they use various arguments such as "it can't be helped, it's nature and nature's function" or "these GM seeds had made your crops better and we counter-sue" or "no, you must have stolen it! and we counter-sue" and on and on.
    As far as I am aware there has been one farmer who claimed that the seed ended up on his land accidentally. He claimed this even though 95 to 98 percent of his 1,000 acres of canola crop was made up of Roundup Ready plants! The trial judge found that "none of the suggested sources [proposed by Schmeiser] could reasonably explain the concentration or extent of Roundup Ready canola of a commercial quality" ultimately present in Schmeiser's crop ((2001), 202 F.T.R. 78, at para. 118). That is, he was lying.

    In all the cases that are cited in the PubPat press release [prnewswire.com] the acts are intentional. No one is claiming accidental contamination.

  27. Re:Why Is Everyone Opposed To Biological Patents? by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 2, Informative

    I do not understand why there is such opposition to biological patents.

    Biological patents are awarded on strains of seeds that have existed for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Monsanto is unusual, in that they do some R&D prior to getting a patent.

    Amber

    --
    Wind Beneath Thy Wings
  28. Should he have burnt his crop? by MikePlacid · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the wikipedia article you cited, the sequence of events in Schmeiser case is as follows:

    1. Schmeiser field was contaminated by Roundup Ready gene.
    2. Schmeiser discovered this and decided to harvest, save seeds and plant them next year.
    3. He has not used Roundup at all, so his decision in 2 was not because he wanted a free benefit, but just because he did not want to burn contaminated crop.
    4. Appelate courts split 5:4. 5 for "use" means "any use", 4 for "use" means "for profit use".

    Should he have burnt his contaminated harvest? Why? He was not under contract with Monsanto.

    1. Re:Should he have burnt his crop? by modecx · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, the Supreme court of Canada, on the Percy Schmeiser case, said that Schmeiser had recognized the cross-contamination, knowingly collected and replanted the seeds from the cross-contaminated crop. How they arrived at this determination, I can't speculate. I don't know how you say "oh by golly, these seeds here look like they have a Monsanto patented gene, I better not plant 'em, else them big corporations are gonna mow me down!" It's good for him that the court awarded no damages to Monsanto, though.

      Secondly, he's freaking Canadian, and doesn't receive the kinds of subsidies you think he does. Thirdly, he was growing canola, which does not receive kind of government protection that corn in the United States does. Fourthly, at the time of this battle he was ~70 years old. I guess he'd be better off ditching that farming crap, being a greeter at Wal-Mart is much more profitable and spiritually rewarding, anyway.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    2. Re:Should he have burnt his crop? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, Schmeiser routinely used Roundup around power poles and in ditches. That's how he discovered that he had the cross-contamination, as after using Roundup, he realized that some plants survived. After spraying a few more acres and discovering that more than half of the sprayed crop survived, he collected that seed for use in the next season's crop. Schmeiser's crop went from 60% of a few acres to 95% of 1000 acres in one season.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    3. Re:Should he have burnt his crop? by WNight · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's ridiculous to patent the components of something that self-reproduces.

      Let Monsanto sit on it until they come up with a fool-proof way of keeping their seeds limited to those who buy them.

      I want millions, and I've written software that I'm sure would help Monsanto. Should I patent it then slip it into their company networks via a worm and sue them? Seems like a winning strategy.

      After all, if they hadn't wanted my patented software their IT department should have inspected every network packet, by hand if necessary...

      People who advocate patent/copyright extension are the biggest leeches/thieves in society today. Some thing may be hard to research without a known market (drugs, that the government regulates heavily) but for every semi-valid patent there are a thousand absolute liars patents XOR and cat entertainment via laser pointers.

  29. Re:Naaaah by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yea, it's one step forward after the 2,401,323 steps we've taken back in the last few years!
    A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. -Lao Tzu
    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  30. Re:Naaaah by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In all the cases that are cited in the PubPat press release [prnewswire.com] [prnewswire.com] the acts are intentional.
    That's the problem with patenting plants. Intention is a difficult thing to prove absolutely when you're talking about pollination. As we all learned from Jurrasic Park, DNA is a hard thing to control.
    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  31. "American" farmers? by Fractal+Dice · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It always bothers me when I see a patriotic rallying cry that points out the pain to "Americans". Are you saying it wouldn't be so bad/unethical if the companies were harming non-Americans?

    1. Re: "American" farmers? by Shados · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At first glance (I didnt read the article), I'd be saying the patents in question were american awarded ones, yes? If so, then it would be a bit hard to use said patents to hurt non-americans. In the same way if Monsanto had patents (maybe they do!) in, let say, australia, it would be correct to say they would be used to hurt and bankrupt australian farmers, no?

    2. Re: "American" farmers? by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Are you saying it wouldn't be so bad/unethical if the companies were harming non-Americans?

      US Patents only apply in the US, in other words, to AMERICANS. These US Patents have nothing to do with non-Americans, except perhaps very few immigrants, if you want to get pedantic.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  32. Not as silly as you'd think by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

    If GM crops nudge out the conventional ones, eventually we'll be in a position where a company can starve millions of people to death at will. Legally.
    That's just silly. There are lots of different kinds of seeds and lots of different kinds of crops. The patents in this case would all expire by 2011 even if they are eventually found valid.
    A Union of Concerned Scientists study found that of "non-GM" seed stock tested in the U.S., 50% of the corn, 50% of the soybeans, and 83% of the canola were already cross-contaminated with GM material. If Monsanto had their way, anyone using that cross-contaminated seed would have to be paying them for a license if the patent belonged them. When that number reaches 100%, it'd basically be pay Monsanto or you can't farm.

    I am not against patents on an innovate breed of crop manufactured through genetic engineering per se. But the way Monsanto is pursuing farmers right now would be like if the RIAA demanded you pay for a copy of a CD whenever someone listening to a song simply drove by you in his car with his windows open. If Monsanto wants the benefit of patent-backed monopoly pricing on their product, then the onus should be on them to insure that people wishing to opt out of that monopoly have a clear means to do so.

    1. Re:Not as silly as you'd think by drew · · Score: 2, Funny

      But the way Monsanto is pursuing farmers right now would be like if the RIAA demanded you pay for a copy of a CD whenever someone listening to a song simply drove by you in his car with his windows open.


      Believe me, if they thought they had a reliable way to keep track of that, they'd be doing it.
      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
  33. The problem by jandersen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Having looked through some of the responses I can see that this debate has become one about GM as much as one about abuse of frivolous patents.

    GM first - the main problem I see with GM crops is not so much that "it is unnatural" and therefore harmful. Philosophically speaking, nothing we do is unnatural - it all follows the laws of nature, even if it isn't always good for us. That's an aside, though - the real problem is more one of genetic pollution. Never mind they say that it doesn't happen "very often", whatever that means; the basic idea with the gene modifications we see from the likes of Monsanto is to create a plant that has some sort of advantage, in a very narrow sense, over unmodified plants - once the modified gene escapes into the wild, which it will unless the modified plants are unable to reproduce sexually (and what is the point of corn that doesn't produce seeds?) - once the genes escape, we don't know what will happen. Perhaps the genes that were a moderate afvantage for a crop plant turns out to be a huge advantage for a wild species, and suddenly we have a big problem on our hands; we simply don't know, and we have no way of reliably assessing the risk. This however, is the least of the problems.

    The real problem, as Monsanto shows us, is that these patents it will be used as a weapon by multinational corporations; it gives them power far beyond what is reasonable, and on a very dubious foundation. The likely truth is that no matter which genes any company "invents", they already exist somewhere in nature; in light of this I think the law should be changed, at least for genes - either it should rest on the company to prove that their invention is a real invention, or it should simply be impossible to patent genes.

  34. Alternative to Future of Food Doc: Harvest of Fear by calcapt · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/harvest/

    Harvest of Fear is a documentary on GMOs as well, produced by PBS. If anyone watches Future of Food, they should watch Harvest of Fear. This is primarily because I thought Future of Food (as another reply to this parent pointed out) seems to have been designed to scare the viewer shitless. Harvest of Fear, on the other hand, provides arguments and counter arguments for nearly every topic brought up, without the dramatics and theatrics featured in the Future of Food. You might find yourself agreeing with one viewpoint, and another take on that viewpoint will be brought up, and it gets you thinking.

    In any case, it's good to watch the 2 and compare/contrast the views.

  35. Re:Naaaah by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 2, Interesting
    as far as i was aware, GM crops are all sterile,

    The technology to make GM crops sterile exists, but is not used.

    It's like the ultimate DRM, except instead of not being able to listen to music you starve to death. Smart, eh?

    --
    It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  36. Intention seems to be irrelevant by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I agree that the guy in all probability bred seeds from plants that surived in non-cultivated areas where he sprayed and he did this with full knowledge of what he was doing. However it seems to me that the judgement side-stepped intention as irrelevant. The way I read it (ok skim it) is that the undisputed fact the patented gene was found in the plants was enough to demonstrate infringement because he had "used" the gene. /IANAL

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  37. Re:Naaaah by yoder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "...while the US considers anything that might reduce the profit of a paying supporter as an attempt to overthrow the best government money can buy."

    Bingo!

    "All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field." ~Albert Einstein

    "Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where they is no river." ~Nikita Khrushchev

    "The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." ~P.J. O'Rourke

    --
    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!" -- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)
  38. Re:Naaaah by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Funny

    A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. -Lao Tzu It then needs to be followed by a million more. - Me
    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  39. OT: Bee's are dieing due to Asian Parasite by mrand · · Score: 3, Informative

    >

    Read more at:

    http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid /43163/story.htm

    (yes, this is off topic for the overall article... but I felt it was important enough to post this rather than use my moderation points)

    --
    -- PGP keyID: 0x4C95994D
  40. FUD about GMOs by MaizeMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >We evolved in the same biosphere as insects, so changes to a plant to prevent the insect from being able to eat them may also have effects on us

    Great, sounds logical. Until you learn that the CRY proteins expressed by bt crops crystalize into their toxic form only under highly basic conditions. Because we took different evolutionary paths for millions of years, our stomachs are highly acidic while insects stomachs are highly basic. On top of that you've been eating the CRY proteins on organic food for decades, as spraying with bacteria producing those proteins has long been considered an organic form on pest control.

    "GMOs are designed for one reason, to make money."

    Monsanto's GMOs are designed for one reason, to make money. Fixed that for you. ;) I've known a lot of scientists who've spent years and years developing crops with no commercial incentive (either crops that aren't grown in the industrialized world, or adding traits that are only of value to subsistance/small scale farmers). You can talk all you'd like about how starvation is a policy problem, but it's people who paint all genetic engineering with too broad a brush who're holding up the approval of crops like golden rice (4,000 children die of vitamin-A deficency every day) and virus resistant cassava. Its very easy to say there's no need for GMOs when you live in a country where most nutrition problems are caused by too much food rather than too little.

  41. Re:Naaaah by pjabardo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Let me just tell you about some problems in Brazil. There is a state, Parana that was trying to stay GM free. Federal justice said that a state can not rule on that and they had to open up to GM soy bean. Non GM grain has a higher value (europe doesn't buy GM grain). Taxes are paid when the grain arrives on the port. If you declare that you are producing GM grain, you will pay 2% taxes. If you don't declare that, the government will test your production for GM grain. If the government finds more than 1% of GM grain, your crop is considered GM and the taxes rise to 3% and you have to pay for the tests, which is quite expensive (I don't know how much). 1% GM limit is easily reached through cross-pollination. They still have to pay royalties to Monsanto.

    Since these costs are fairly high, many producers are choosing to declare their crops GM. Overall effects: basically, you can not choose to grow non GM crops.

  42. Re:Naaaah by zstlaw · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Um I have heard of ONE case where Monsanto was unsuccessful and that farmer still lost 50 years of selective breeding work since he was ordered to destroy all his own seed crop. (http://commonground.ca/iss/0401150/percy_schmeise r.shtml) That means he was required to plant new seed which will probably be GM encumbered. Also his neighbors still grow Monsanto crop so he won't be able to save seeds then either. Essentially he has to now buy seed every year after 50 years of planting his own.

    He also spent years in court losing lots of time and money.

    Several people responded to you and your responders with no clue on this subject. Yes he was sued for have 90% contamination (numbers supplied by Monsanto testing) A round of testing by the University of Manitoba at the farmers request found that two of his fields had no contamination. Others had one percent, some had two percent and one had eight percent. In the ditch along the fields where we first noticed it, contamination was around 60 percent.

    The GM crop is designed to resist being poisoned by roundup. He didn't use roundup so there was no benefit to him having the seeds. To the ignoramus that spouted "he had like 90% of course he was buying seed", well the RCIA says that disk you own is worth 150,000 they must be right, huh? It isn't in their interest to lie in their favor in the court is it?

  43. Re:Naaaah by zstlaw · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Gah, I just re-read the judgment and it does sound like the the original court judge found him as having deliberately planted Monsanto seed. (He had a field he tested for resistance (usign roundup to kill all non-resistant plants), 60 percent survived. He kept this seed seperate, but he later had the seed treated and reseeded. I believe the seed from this field was what was tested and found to have the high levels of contamination. So at least one of the other links under you was well informed. There was more to the case than I remembered.

  44. Re:Naaaah by gbulmash · · Score: 4, Funny

    A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. -Lao Tzu

    It then needs to be followed by a million more. - Me

    You cover 5.28 feet in a single step? If not, then it needs to be followed by three to four million more, depending on the length of your stride. If you shuffled, you could actually make it take ten million steps.

  45. Re:Naaaah by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 2, Funny

    As we all learned from Jurrasic Park, DNA is a hard thing to control.

    No, I didn't learn my genetics form Jurassic Park. I learned it from my professors in the Biology Department. But that was mostly because even after watching all three films, Steven Spielberg refused to give me a diploma or a refund.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  46. Well Said by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is an interesting take on it. In short, patents should be time specific to their domain. So, by this reasoning, software patents (if allowed at all) should have a maximum lifetime of about 2 years. That makes patenting software almost irrelevant, as the patenting time and costs exceed the value of the patent, since in 2 years the software has historically been obsoleted by the next version or 3.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  47. Re:Naaaah by PetoskeyGuy · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's the problem with patenting plants. Intention is a difficult thing to prove absolutely when you're talking about pollination. As we all learned from Jurrasic Park, DNA is a hard thing to control.
    And more importantly use round knobs on doors when there is possibility of raptor attacks!
    http://xkcd.com/87/
    http://xkcd.com/135/
    http://www.pitt.edu/~jrf27/cs1515/poster/jrf27.pdf (PDF proof of longest time to live)
  48. Re:Naaaah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    "I drank what???" -Socrates

  49. Re:Naaaah by xENoLocO · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'd take 5 steps to my car. :)

    --
    "The need to build the internet comes from something inside us, something programmed... something we can't resist."
  50. Re:Why Is There Such Opposition To Biological Pate by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'll try to make this as simple as possible:

    Healthcare shouldn't be an "industry." It is and should always be a service. It's not a product and it shouldn't be a product. Health shouldn't be treated as a commodity to be bought or sold and certainly not the exclusive domain of the wealthy or the privileged. Technology and development of technology ultimately belongs to all of humanity. It is a "favor" that any given governmental body rewards those who develop things that benefit the world a temporary monopoly, but it is exactly when that monopoly is abused or used as a weapon to stifle other business, the rights of individuals, or otherwise adversely affect the world or mankind, then that monopolist should be stopped in some way.

    Business that serves people in delivering things that people need for survival such as healthcare and food should be held outside of normal business in that their practices do not follow the normal supply and demand market paradigm. The demand doesn't vary based on supply or pricing. There will always be a need for healthy foods. There will always be a need for quality healthcare. And to allow profit-seeking business to adversely affect peoples lives so that they can "protect their property" (which is ultimately given to them "by the people") is not just an immoral act, but an act against the interests of humanity.

    As the food industry goes, (the original topic here?) should Monsanto and companies like them be allowed to freely pursue their aims, it would remove healthy organic foods from the market place replaced by "patented foods" which can only be grown and produced with their permission and sold by their rules. All the while, they are completely escaping the collateral harm they are causing. There are links being made, for example, between GM foods and the decline in the bee population. (Bees are an indispensable and irreplaceable part of farming and the world's ecosystems such that the extinction of bees would mean the extinction of man quite literally.) There have been many other problems identified with the use of "disease resistant" and other durable forms of GM foods as well, many of which lead directly to health problems. But as choice for healthy food diminishes, (and the cost for healthy food goes higher) the quality of life diminishes as well... they are presently not being held accountable.

    "fortunately, the bootleggers take care of that"? Are you kidding me? Profiteering and illegal acts are a "fortunate" byproduct of an already humanity-abusive system?! Are you thinking your own thoughts to conclusion?

    I have failed in being brief, but only because I see this as a critical issue.

  51. Re:Naaaah by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

    WHO is going to sue the biggest agro conglomerate on the planet?
    WHO is going to shell out a minimum $5000 retainer to some lawyer just to get a consult?
    WHO is going to continue to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars at increments of $300 until the case is adjudicated in some lower court?
    WHO is going to continue to spend even more money if the first round doesn't go to the "little guy"?

    The family farmer is much like the garage inventor.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  52. Monsanto will gladly come take their property... by ubercam · · Score: 2, Informative

    off your field upon request. First they'll spray Round Up on every square inch and then come back when all the non-GM plants are dead and rip the ones that're still standing out of the ground. Sounds like a good deal doesn't it?

    Why don't farmers have a legal edge by saying, "The plants all look the same, the seed all looks the same, how the hell are we supposed to be able to tell the difference simply by looking at it?? We don't have genetic engineering labs in our barns, how are we supposed to reasonably be able to figure out which is which?"

    I've hated Monsanto with a passion ever since the first cross-contamination trials, yet more and more I see the signs in farmer's fields proudly displaying which strain of GM crop they're growing that year. My ex's uncle has a certified organic beef farm. It had to be tested and certified that no pesticides or herbicides were used anywhere on his land for the 7 years prior to his application. No idea whether they have to recheck every so often to keep the certification up. His land is mostly pasture for the cattle though.

    Back to Monsanto though, how do they have the right to enter your fields and test your crops without consent? Isn't that trespassing, or even theft since they're taking seeds/plants for testing that may not actually be their "property"?

    Speaking of the political donations and such, us Canucks have an excellent federal law (IMHO) that limits campaign contributions to $2000 per individual (be it person or corporation), period. Sure, the CEO, chairman of the board, managing directors etc etc can all individually donate $2000 out of their own pockets, as well as the company donating it's $2000, but it really curbs the massive multi-million dollar donations that political campaigns in the US get from all sorts of health insurance, oil, pharmaceutical, etc companies, and the thousands of lobby groups for various things. I'm sure we have all the same sorts of crap here in Canada, but their influence ($$$) is limited by law.

    Maybe that's something the US government should look at... doubt it'd ever happen though.

  53. Mod parent up. by MagikSlinger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's the scenario patent advocates love to trot out, but try offering concrete examples and statistics, not hypotheticals. (Such as how patents allowed James Watt to retard the progress of the steam engine for decades, perhaps?)

    I'm glad someone brought that up. When the patent expired, the efficiency of the steam engine shot up (see parent's link). And without patents, people still innovate because they need to make a buck. They just find other ways to get more value out of their invention. One way is old fashioned "trade secrets". As your product hits the market, the secret will eventually be reverse engineered but you have time to make your cash. More importantly, you have the time to produce something better than the other guys who have to play catch-up.

    --
    The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
  54. Re:Naaaah by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Funny

    No, I didn't learn my genetics form Jurassic Park. I learned it from my professors in the Biology Department.
    Well, good for you, Mr. Fancy Diploma.

    I learned all the genetics I need from the Bible, just like any decent American. Oh, and my bowl of Sea Monkeys too.
    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  55. Re:Naaaah by armareum · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm surprised a Trekker with mod points hasn't modded you 'Troll' yet. He never actually said those words!

    --
    Is this a rhetorical question?