Slashdot Mirror
Our ATM Is Broken, Go To Jail
Actually, I do RTFA writes "This community recently discussed possible criminal prosecution for people who took advantage of faulty slot machine software. At the time, many here drew an analogy to a hypothetical ATM that dispensed too much money. Well, apparently, that too may result in criminal charges. Although they suspect that someone may have tampered with the ATM, they are considering charging anyone who got extra money from it." Here is an editorial musing on the morality of such unexpected windfalls.
This is yet more evidence of how materialistic our society has become. It is NOT a crime to not report the observation of a beating or death. Yet it is a crime to take advantage of a faulty slot machine? Something is F'd. Big business has too damned much influence over the laws of this country. They don't care if people die as long as they get their fucking loot back.
Table-ized A.I.
when that bank errors in your favor, your screwed but when the bank errors in their favor, your screwed?
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Didn't your local friendly MMORPG teach you the consequences of exploiting bugs?
Seriously, just because you were not the one who hacked the thing, doesn't give you the right to exploit the flow. It's like stealing stuff from a shop because the window was broken by someone else.
Accidents do happen, and it should be the burden of the prosecution to prove the defendant knew of the exploit, and not vice versa, but if you see someone withdrawing 1 grand (max daily limit) from a machine that happens to give out $20s instead of $5s (especially if person never previously withdrew such large amounts), and of course the person conveniently "forgot" to check the amount he got, then you got a pretty good circumstantial case of malicious intent, and then the defendant better have some good justification for these actions.
So, there are some people who took advantage of an ATM defect (whether bug, intentional, or accidental programming error, error in loading cash, whatever.)
The bank knows who they are.
Why don't they just debit their accounts the correct amounts and forget about it?
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Your groceries come to $7 something, you hand her a $10, she gives you $12 something (ie. change for a $20). What do you do? I've seen two reactions to this: what I've seen my parents' do... I tell her I only gave her a $10 and worked it out. Did that in front of a friend and no amount of reasoning seems to stop his whining:
him: "You idiot! You could have had $10 bucks."
me: "It's not screwing the man... she's responsible for her till."
him: "It's like she dropped it on the street and you found it."
me: "Not even close... it's like I SAW her drop it and have the chance to return it."
Aannnnd... end scene. I seriously could not understand his reasoning and he couldn't understand mine.
Although, I have to admit, if something rings up lower than it's real price and the cashier wont get screwed, I'll probably not say anything.
Anyone else?
People in the USA have no problem taking the cash out of my wallet before returning it
You shouldn't generalize like that. I'm in the USA, and I'd always return a wallet fully intact, and wouldn't ever pocket money in your 7-11 scenario.
In fact, I remember when I was 5 my dad and I found a wallet in the airport. He opened it to look at the license, closed it, looked at me and said "never take anything from someone's wallet, even if you find it on the ground like this. Always return it or give it to security."
So, people with lack of proper role models/home training, yes. But this doesn't include the entire population of the USA.
You wouldn't go to jail for some guy's programming error, you'd go to jail for not returning what wasn't yours. Why do we feel this compulsion to take advantage of somebody else's bad luck, when that other entity is a corporation? The bank doesn't deserve to 'eat it' just because they're a bank. And insurance is merely a way to average out the cost of disasters over time and people, it doesn't wave a magic wand and make the cost go away. When there is a claim, insurance premiums go up, by more than the claims. What were your parents teaching you when you grew up?
taking stuff that don't belong to you is theft. Which part of this concept is so hard to understand???
There was an unknown error in the submission.
In other words, yes, you believe corporations are evil and that people should be allowed to take advantage of them. Your rationale behind this belief is, of course, dubious, since individuals can be assholes too:
"Oh, your car broke down? So effing what? I have to get home and watch Simpsons, so I won't stop for you."
"Oh, you have extra bills to pay? Sorry about your luck. I'm going to leave without telling you that I dented your car door."
"Oh, you say you need at least $11/hour to live? Tough crap. I'm going to shoplift from your little store anyway."
"Oh, you're already just skimming your bills? Tough crap. We want this big construction project in our state, and it's too expensive to be worth it, so we want our representative to push for the federal government to pay for it instead, spreading the cost out over everyone else."
The world is full of people taking advantage of each other. It's easy to point the finger at Big Business, but it pays to remember that Big Business is run by people. We get through life in a world full of assholes by having laws that protect us from those that take things too far. The law doesn't care whether or not you like someone. It cares that you're taking something that does not belong to you, and refusing to give it back.
Since ATMs are opaque and you cannot see the contents of the money bins until you have taken money out, you have to do the "crime" before you can know that the ATM is misconfigured. Thus you are already a criminal. That doesn't make sense. Crime has to have an element of intent. If your only intent was to withdraw money owned by you from your own account, clearly no wrongdoing was intended.
But going back for seconds, after having noticed the mistake... now you're talking criminal intent.
--
I don't want to rule the world... I just want to be in charge of mayonnaise.
We all live with a variety of systems that may serve us well or abuse us to varying degrees. Sooner or later, most people become disenfranchised by one of their 'family of systems' and feel something between resentful and righteously vengeful. Somewhere in the middle of that range is the desire to be passive-aggressive about an error by that system. Any response on this scale is a form of rebellion. This rebellion is a form of dissent that may be one small straw that helps change the system. This type of response needs to be carefully considered on a case by case basis. I have changed banks several time because I don't like their policies. I like my current bank and I would not do them harm by inaction on their error.
On the other hand, I have been repeatedly screwed by my medical insurance company. After my account lapsed, my provider continued to submit claims to them because that is what they had on file for me. To my surprise, they paid. When I next visit the doctor, I plan to make sure they do not bill my canceled insurance but I will make no attempt to correct their prior mistake. This would likely cause me more grief than it is worth and it feels like a bit of payback.
I consider myself a very ethical person but that does not mean my actions need be dictated by flawed law or abusive contract. Nor do I cast then aside, if they are executed with best intent.
IMHO these people are certainly guilty of something, though IINAL so I don't know exactly what. They took advantage of a situation and took money they clearly realized was not theirs. I don't think this is any different than walking out of a store without paying if you get to the front and find the cashier is in the bathroom. I've said it before, these are not difficult decisions; you know what's right, you just need to choose to do it. "Stickin' it to the man" is simply rationalization of your own immorality.
What's sad here is that apparently a couple dozen people found out about this and it nobody had the honesty to report it.
Because the bank has more money than you do, and therefore it is more powerful and plays by different rules.
After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
- The Tao of Programming
So here is the issue. They can bankrupt me with no significant repercussion, and don't even have to make an effort to correct the mistake unless I beg them to do so, but I have to immediately report any mistakes they make. Now, if I could claim treble damages for any mistake the bank made, and double digit damage for any mistake that was not fixed 24 hour after a report, then perhaps I could agree to civil prosecution for taking advantage of a defective machine.
Breaking a machine, or in this case taking advantage as a broken machine is criminal activity. But unless I can prosecute the CEO of bank for criminal negligence when I have no money for week due to the firms mistake, then I don't see how the bank should charge me for criminal activity when their machines give me $400 instead of $100. At most, like they do when they screwed me over, I should asked to give the money back, and perhaps, if necessary,pay a small fine. Note, however, that the bank does not offer to pay me for my inconvenience.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Unusual definition you've got there for "the means of production."
Socialism is not "taking other people's stuff." It is not about taking your jacket and giving it to someone else, or redistributing your jacket equally amongst everyone. That is rubbish. Socialism is about taking the factory that was used to make your jacket, and turning it over to the people, to be controlled in a democratic fashion, rather than having it belong to private interests (ie corporations) to be used for their own profit. This nonsense about no one having private property in a socialist world is nothing but propaganda. There are two types of private property: There is private property in the sense of the individual: your jacket. There is also private property in the sense of a legal entity like a corporation: the factory that produced your jacket.
In a nutshell, socialists simply want economic as well as political democracy.
"We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
If a store clerk rings up an item, turns to you, and says, "That'll be $3.99," and you hand them $3.99, then that's the agreed price. What it says back on the shelf has nothing to do with it.
Any incongruity between the store clerk and the wishes of the store managers is not the responsibility of the customer.
the finale of Seinfeld
I HATE that episode. I know the whole thing is a comedy, but come on... that rap they got arrested on wouldn't hold up 2 seconds in court. All their lawyer would have to do is point out that they were video-taping the crime as evidence to help the police catch the crook. How much more helpful could they have been? (Physically intervening is specifically discouraged by police!)
Isn't that weird about our culture? We punish bad behaviour with a vengeance, but rarely do we reward good behaviour.
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
It would depend on the ATM machine, the location, and the amount I withdrew.
$20 at a convenience store in a good neighbourhood during the day, I'd certainly count the cash.
A large withdrawal at a bank-run ATM at midnight downtown, I would trust the bank rather then show the world just how much cash I have in my pocket.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
you'd go to jail for not returning what wasn't yours
It IS mine. The 'agent' of the bank (the ATM) GAVE it to me. The fact that the 'agent' did not record the 'proper' ammount is NOT my problem.
The bank doesn't deserve to 'eat it' just because they're a bank.
You either have a REALLY (unbeleivably) good bank, or work for one.
What were your parents teaching you when you grew up?
'Everything I know, I learned from Monopoly: "Bank Error in Your Favor, Collect $200".'
Surely they wouldn't be that stupid and would allow a slight leeway either way on the threshold...
All those deposits of 9999.99 would look rather suspect in your bank account which I am sure would raise a few red flags... but a once off of 10000.12 could just be someone paying for a second hand car etc.
Me failed English...
FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
Breaking a machine, or in this case taking advantage as a broken machine is criminal activity. But unless I can prosecute the CEO of bank for criminal negligence when I have no money for week due to the firms mistake, then I don't see how the bank should charge me for criminal activity when their machines give me $400 instead of $100.
...
The first time is an accident and you should not go to jail. However, if you continue asking for $100 then you are knowingly comitting a crime and should go to jail. I expect that the people to be prosecuted are those who engaged in the latter.
They can bankrupt me with no significant repercussion
You can sue them. And if the CEO knowingly repeatedly "improperly credits a bad check" he can go to jail to. Things seem perfectly symetrical to me. Either compare one accident to one accident or repeated abuse to repeated abuse, not one accident to repeated abuse.
And that's really how it should be. I'm not going to help anyone if I don't have the means to do so. If I've got a cell phone, I call 911 for them. If I don't have my phone on me, well, it's sadly not my problem and I can't do anything about it. If there's something I can do, I will, but that's usually not the case. Having the law require me to help would not be a good idea.
You want to get more than your fixed wage? Earn it, don't cheat it.
It seems we are overly obsessed with throwing people in jail lately.
That's because the prison industry is a growing enterprise. There's much profit to be garnered from prison labor and the infrastructure needed to maintain it. It has the plus of being domestic. You'll have a lot more "Made in the USA" tags on Walmart products. Expect a lot more of this in the future. There's not much sympathy for prisoners, especially since so many are not "good ol' boys", and it doesn't matter why you are in there.
What?
>How dare the evil corporations tell us what to do when they erroneously give us money that isn't ours!
Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your actions. If you gave me money but you didn't intend to then why should you be be able to force me to give it back?
They made the mistake, they should suck it up and eat it. It's called taking responsibility for your actions.
Oh sorry I forget, we are talking about corporations here. They were created specifically to shirk personal responsibility.
Never mind.
evil is as evil does
I doubt that made-up number. I suspect that more than 1% of the population are assholes.
And even if your number is right, the question is how many people are honest enough to return something they "found" when they know they can find the owner but also think they can get away with it if they take no action? I'd like to think it's more than 50%, but I really am not sure.
'' If someone just went up to the machine and did a withdrawal and they got 4x as much money as they asked for, I would think that's not grounds for prosecution--though they should be expected to return the money. If someone re-plugged the unplugged machine and/or went back for a second withdrawal after observing the problem, I think that's something I'd consider prosecuting. ''
If I ask for say $50, and the machine spits out $200, what should you do? I think first it is obvious that $150 is not _your_ money, it is the banks money. Actually, it is not quite clear, because the bank might have deducted $200 from your account. It is clear that the bank made a mistake, it is not at all obvious which mistake, so you would have to take the money with you and figure out what happened. If you leave $150 there, what would happen? It is either your money, so you should take it, or it is the banks money, in which case you should take the money into your care so nobody takes it away. To be legally on the safe side, you might go to a lost&found office. There is likely a legal difference if the machine is inside the bank's building and you take the banks money off their premises.
Going back for more I think would be considered fraud.
>Where's your responsibility to fairly and honestly honour your contract of employment?
Show me where it says that in the contract. If it's not in the contract then by all means pocket the money.
>You can't ethically or morally pocket company funds and expect your employers not to want to set things right.
Who cares about ehics. We are talking about business here. It's either in the contract or not.
>If they underpaid you $1000, I'd bet you'd want to set things right.
Yes because that's in the contract.
evil is as evil does
Witnesses! Where are the witnesses to this heinous crime? You sir, did you receive $150 in excess cash from the machine?
No, I didn't.
Our machine says you did.
But I didn't. Did someone else?
What's a court to do....
I usually do a quick count of the money I get from an ATM. On the other hand, I'm close to six feet tall, I have a heavy beard and I can look like the type that would love to beat you up if you tried something stupid. I also tend to use ATMs in 'safe' locations while staying very aware of the environment.
Other people may not feel safe about doing a count, especially if they can see at a glance that they got X bills when they were expecting X bills. Thus a request for $75 could result in 6 bills, three $20s and three $5s and result in a total of $120 if the $5s were actually $20s.
If this person already has some cash in their wallet, they may not realize what happened.
And if this person is elderly, female, invalid, handling infants or small children, or some in some other vulnerable state, they might forego the counting, especially if the ATM is in an unsafe location.