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Our ATM Is Broken, Go To Jail
Actually, I do RTFA writes "This community recently discussed possible criminal prosecution for people who took advantage of faulty slot machine software. At the time, many here drew an analogy to a hypothetical ATM that dispensed too much money. Well, apparently, that too may result in criminal charges. Although they suspect that someone may have tampered with the ATM, they are considering charging anyone who got extra money from it." Here is an editorial musing on the morality of such unexpected windfalls.
How about employers who make direct deposits to your bank account and then, four weeks later, send a collection notice saying,"Ooops. We overpaid you."
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
Where is there an ATM that does anything in increments other than 20?
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Because bank lines were cut, some banks did NOT turn off their Manhattan ATMs so that customers could obtain emergency cash. Of course, when this was discovered, this was abused. I havent heard of the followups of any persecutions, if any.
FEMA disbursed cash with low identity proof threshholds because the assumption was many people lost their IDs during the disaster. This was abused (and mocked in the media). FEMA is trying to collect the cash, but many of the thieves dont have much. Its a dilemma: damned if you are too tight with aid; damned if you are too loose.
I personally ran into this problem myself. Back a couple of years ago, I drove up to my bank to get some cash. A guy came out of the ATM with a big sh*t eating grin on his face. I went in and chose to get $60 cash and was then handed $120. Just my luck!
When I came out, he asked if the same thing had happened to me and I said yes. We both left and went about our ways.
An article showed up in the news paper that had explained that a programming up date that had been updated that day had caused the machine to dispense double your withdrawal. In turn, the bank would withdraw the money from your account for the additional money that was dispensed.
I would think that they should eat it as it was their mistake (they have insurance), but the other side of it is that I don't think I should go to jail for some guys programming error.
If this happened to me while the bank was closed, which is a good percentage of the day / week, then it gets annoying. It's one thing to pop my head in and say "Excuse me, but bla-bla-bla" but the only time I'm free when the bank is open is Thursday nights (for 1 hour) and Saturdays. So it's a real hassle to:
- remember about it the next day
- wait until I have the extra time to call from my job (since there isn't a branch near my work)
- lookup the number
- get past the annoying automated touch-tone-service
- speak to a manager
- etc
But I guess if I didn't do all of that, then it's my fault they screwed up.That's why:
If the bank screws up, at most they will give you your money back. This often involves that YOU have to (a) notice the error, (b) complain about it, and (c) see through that you actually get the money, which may involve going several steps up the chain of the command (do you think the local bank teller has the authority to give money to everyone who says they should have it?).
If you miss either of these 3 steps, it's quite possible the bank will never return the money. And since it takes quite a bit of your time to perform the above steps, in case of small losses (such as an ATM giving $20 less than it should) simply choose to give up the money rather than try and recover it.
If, on the other hand, you get too much, then it is also up to YOU to *quickly* let the bank know and give them their money back. If you wait for them to go after you, then you'll end up in jail, can't just "give it back" anymore.
In short, if the bank underpays you, the onus is on you to notice fix the error, or you don't get the money, otherwise you'd get (at most) that money, no compensation for lost time).
If the bank overpays you, the onus is also on you to notice and fix the error, otherwise you go to jail.
How big must the 'windfall' be before we report it? When you're checking out at the supermarket and you notice your item rang up for $2.99 instead of $3.99 that it was supposed to, do you say something? Most of us probably wouldn't say anything, but would raise hell if it was supposed to be $3.99 and it rang up for $4.99. If it's just a $1 difference in our favor, we don't report and let it slide even though we know it's an error in their system. Is that now a crime? If not, then where do we draw the line? If $1 in our favor is not a crime, but say $100 in our favor is, what's the cutoff? Does this just apply to ATM/Slot machines? What if I bought ten items that were $1 off, do I report it then? How about fifty of those items?
It just seems to raise too many questions.
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
The face-to-face equivalent of this is: you purchase a $5 item. You hand the clerk a $20 bill, He/she proceeds to give you three 20's in change instead of 3 5's. If you choose to say nothing and keep the money, then (1)is that "wrong," and (2)is that theft?
For the most part, honesty and fair play normally demands that you point out the error. After all, anyone can make a mistake when distracted, and the bottom line is that money will come out of the (probably very poorly paid) employee's pocket when the register doesn't balance at the end of the day. For me, I would be honest most of the time, but it depends on how I've been treated in the course of the transaction. For example, once at a Wal-Mart the clerk clearly rang the purchase up wrong, and gave me about $10 too much in change. When I politely tried to point that out to her, she got very huffy and defensive and insisted that I didn't know what I was talking about and that she did not make such mistakes. Needless to say, I pocketed THAT Hamilton. But is that "theft?" The possibility never occurred to me, and I've never heard of anyone being arrested for getting too much change and not returning it.
"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
I have never, ever in my entire life had a bank, mortgage, or a credit card company call me to apologize or fix their error when they have either double-charged me or misapplied a payment. When this occurs, I end up discovering it ON MY OWN by examining my own bank statement and then calling the bank and talking with random people for several hours to correct the situation.
So, tell me, why should I extend the bank the same courtesy when it's in my favor?
Titus Barik
The banks are providing a service that the customers pay for by the way of bank fees. In return, the customers are essentially "leasing" their money to the bank so the bank can do stuff with it, and the bank pays for this by way of interest. No-one is FORCING you to use a particular bank. If you don't like your bank's service, take your money somewhere else. If you don't like banks in general, put your money in a safety deposit box or something.
Actually this wasn't me but my Aunt in this case... But my Aunt had automatic bill pay set up w/ her bank (I think Whitney) and the bank goofed and mailed the check to the school her kids attend late. The school charged a late fee of $200. The branch manager got on the phone and called the school to beg them to forgive the lateness as it was due to their screwup, and not hers. The school refused, so the bank cut my Aunt a $200 check.
So yes, banks do take care of your customers. If yours doesn't, why are you still banking there?
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
A long time ago we opened savings accounts for our two kids, $100 each IIRC. There was no activity except interest for years. One day I looked at the statements and in my son's account there was a deposit for something like $100,000 or so. Then a few days later there was a withdrawal for the same amount. But the interest of over $100 stayed in the account. We never said anything and neither did the bank.
But for a while now I've taken it on faith that when i withdraw $100 in $20 bills I get 5 bills. I take the money and stuff it in my wallet without counting it, mostly because sometimes I withdraw from not the safest neighborhoods and I don't want to be standing around flashing cash while I count.
Does this mean that if I am guilty of being lazy/preoccupied/safety conscious and not count my money after withdrawal I could go to jail?
My solution to situations like these which makes me feel morally happy is to inform the relevant person/business and then let them fix it. If they don't then I take it to mean that they don't care and are happy for me to keep the money. The nice thing with this is that generally the companies which give rubbish service end up screwing themselves since they are ignore my informing them.
For example when getting too much (or too little) change returned I'll point it out and then it gets fixed right away. However as a grad student we had a really terrible company running the pay phone in our student hostel who would take ages to fix problems and never refunded money when the phone swallowed money without giving credit. So when burglars broke open the cash box below the phone we informed the company and true to form it took them over a week to send anyone to fix it. Lets just say that in that time we all more than recouped the cost of all the money it had swallowed previously (it was in the UK and we had an American, Italian, Australian and Malaysian in the hostel in the time before really cheap international calling!).
The nice thing was that because we had informed the company of the break in and damage in advance when they tried to recoup the missing money from the college they (and us) were covered legally (they refused to respond in a timely manner and therefore were liable). The other great thing about this was that afterwards response times on problems dropped to same/next day!
So does this count as completely moral behaviour? Given that the same company had screwed us in the past by not refunding money swallowed by the machine, that we did inform them of the issue beforehand and that I was not one of the people making long, expensive international phone calls I did not have a problem with it. Indeed I think it was a rather good example of poetic justice.
It is quite probable that someone used your son's bank account to laundry money. Some guys in that line of work may make it appear that it was _you_. I would report it in writing to the bank, with a receipt, that I would keep carefully.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Which is all the more reason to take advantage of any leg up that you can get on them, and even more so, to do it with a clear conscience.
"We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
Cost benefit analysis. Same tool the company uses for decision making. If the ATM shorts me, I decide if the amount shorted is worth my time and hassle to correct. If not, I eat the loss as a cost of doing business. If the ATM gives me too much cash, I'll be a nice guy and tell them if they're open. If they're closed, I'm not going to derail my whole day so I can pay them back money that should never have been given to me by the machine *they're* responsible for (and insured on). Cost of doing business.
I have to wonder if I'd be justified in pressing criminal charges when a bank's ATM dispenses a little brown slip of paper instead of a $20, or even better, a counterfeit $20. Both of which have happened to me. oO
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
I didn't come across a lot of posts from /.'s who've worked in financial institutions. So, let me clear some things up. Forgive me if the exact details are off but it's been almost 10 years since i worked on the customer service side.
/. said that he o
- Any large cash transaction needs to be reported. I believe the amount is $10,000. You can deposit checks that are larger than this amount, and they do not need to be reported. There should be no way around this, even if you make 2 separate deposits at two different times on the same business day. A total $10,000/min limit exists for this report. And for those of you wondering, this isn't an uncommon event in a bank that works with businesses primarily.
- All money is accounted for, and double checked. So if you "deposit" more money than you were supposed to, its actually really easy to find out who's it is at the end of the day. Believe it or not, it is also easy when the CSR is short to find out who owes the money. Once the error is found, it is fixed immediately by debiting or crediting your account.
- There is nothing you can't do in a bank. If you have a check to deposit, and they want to put a 1 part or multiple part hold, don't be afraid to ask them to release more of the money right away or sooner. Oh wait that has nothing to do with this, but is still helpful. Always talk calmly and don't get upset!! The bank can almost always help you out.
- Accepting deposits has never been a problem, and even though bank of america sucks, and might require some form of ID, if i recall correctly, as long as they get "A" form of id, they'll take the deposit. I have done this for a friend many years ago, and they took my drivers license as the ID.
- Withdrawing money is a different story all together. When i worked on the CSR side, we were required to contact the customers home branch and request a fax of their signature card. That card is exactly what it sounds like, a card with their signature, but with a date and a bit of other useless info. The customer always has to sign a withdrawal slip or a check to cash on the spot, so you have proof of their signature. You compare that signature to the signature cards and if it's a match or close enough, they get their cash. When customers change their signature, and this is admitted on their behalf, then they are given a chance to write out their old signature. If the signature was close, then we'd look at the other info on the card to try to prove that it really is the account owner.
- With cards having magnetic stripes now, this is much safer, as long as no one has your PIN. But the signature above part is still important in case the ATM eats your card or it's lost/stolen. So make sure you take care when signing for a new bank account.
- ATMs are stocked with a LOT of cash at some point of the day, sometimes multiple times. Although i never really got to get a GOOD look at the machines, i was assured by everyone and the techs who went out to service them that "they don't make mistakes." Now, check my signature
- When an ATM dispenses money and it doesn't add up when the machines are checked, you pull up the records of it's transactions. And like i said before, and difference is easily found. In the cases that i've been aware of where large sums of money were paid out once or repeatedly, their cameras have come into play to help identify the end user. Regardless, the card holder is responsible. If the card was stolen, used and an extra $3,000 paid out, the account holder is responsible. That is why you MUST call and report your lost/stolen card immediately!
- If you are even short changed at an ATM, make sure to report it immediately to the branch if they are operating under normal business hours. If they are closed, call it in immediately and find out what you are required to do. Under normal circumstances you will get your money either through credit to your account or cash on the spot.
- One guy on
My abilities are only limited by my imagination
Its Not that easy to debit an account.
I just came back after writing my Banking Law paper.
A bank is essential a loanee of your funds.
Without your clear unambigous instructions in writing, they can't touch a cent.
If they do, they are liable criminally for fraud.
So just randomly debiting an account does not fly EVEN if the bank made a mistake.
The only recourse open for it to is to request you to repay the amount and/or sue you.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
My wife and I both had this happen. Mine was in the military. They divided the overpayment into 6 months and took that much out of my paychecks. It was only $300 total though so it was $25 a paycheck. For my wife, it too was only several hundred dollars but at a private company. They took it out over a the next two pay periods. I've heard stories about companies taking back huge amounts all at once. IMHO, that is fair provided they give you some heads up though in case you moved it out of your checking account for what ever reason [1]. You should have a rough idea of how much you should be paid. If you spent that extra $1400 you got for no apparent reason, that is your fault.
[1] my wife an I have not balanced our checking account for at least 15 years. I browse the statements online but that is it. Roughly once a month, one of us transfers all but about $2000 from checking. As the month goes on, if we need to or happen to spend more in a single month or it is more then a week or so from a payday and there is less then $1000 in checking, I will transfer enough back to maintain at least $1000 in there. Using this method, we have NEVER bounced a check or had insufficient funds for a payment in the 18 years we have had a joint account. My mother in law maintains her account to the freaking penny, keeps track of and saves every single reciept from every single non cash transaction she makes. She has never bounced a check either. The difference is she spends hours a month maintaining it, we spend about 2 minutes.
Technically... It's their gold... they give you a little so you can give them even more. And they make up money, and give it to you so that they can charge even more for you to give them money. And they make up money to give to the government so that they can charge you for the money that you put in the bank. And they make up money for you to owe them. Deadly... semi-circle. That's American capitalism for you. GR
"Paranoia is the flaw and gift of man. Heed its advice, but do not live by its will."
I once received an extra $1.5k on my bank account by mistake. I didn't tell anyone, but didn't withdraw money either. Then the managers from the bank called me and told that correspondent bank wants the payment back.
When I came to bank and talked to like 5 different managers they told me that there is nothing they can do and that they don't know where this money should be returned.
Here is what happened: the Company A sent the money to my bank account through an intermediate bank B. Bank B processed the payment *twice* by mistake and I got an extra payment on my account in bank C. So, company A didn't care: they paid what they should have paid. My bank C didn't care either: they sent me exactly the sum they received from bank B.
I kept the money and nothing happened. Yet :)
May Peace Prevail On Earth
There was no one TAKING of stuff that didn't belong to them. They made a transaction and purchased a stack of $20 bills. Unfortunately for the ATM operator, the machine decided to have an unadvertised 75% off sale on $20 bills that day. (They empowered the machine to make that decision, or at least failed to take measures to prevent it) How is that criminal? And even morally, why is it the customer's responsibility?
I should not need to know more about the value of a product than the person I'm buying from, but if by chance I do, and I use that knowledge to get a good "deal" then I'm a savvy consumer, not a criminal.
If I'm buying a house, and I find a seller that wants to sell for half of market value, is it theft to buy it? If I go down to the local pawn shop to buy a nice anniversary ring for my wife and find a flawless diamond in the bargain bin and buy it for 10% of it's value, is that theft? Even with money, if a business gives me a rare and valuable nickel as change at face value, is that theft? Why should it be any different with $20 bills?
It is the banks responsibility to field ATMs that are well programmed, install them properly in secure locations, and hire/train competent people to load and operate them. (Years ago when my wife worked at a bank, after any service on the ATM they had to make a $30 withdrawal. If they received anything other than one $20 and two $5, they corrected the problem before the ATM was brought back on-line.) If the bank doesn't do their part, they have poor business practices that should not be rewarded. (Especially not by using public money to find and prosecute people who bought the $20 bills on sale.)
The same goes for cash register transactions. Too many cashiers these days have no concept of what they're doing. They push buttons (hopefully the right ones), scan items, and look at the display for the total, then they punch in the amount tendered and hand back whatever the display says to give back. They rarely do any sanity check on the numbers... Hey, I just scanned a Big Screen TV, but the display says the total is $70, No Problem... The customer hands over two crisp $50 bills, and when the display says $30 change, everyone is happy. (Except the business, but that's their own fault for hiring unmotivated employees, and not training them properly).
I used to be the "honest" customer and report all mistakes (whether in my favor or the stores favor), but I am TIRED of being responsible for ALL of the quality control on transactions I engage in. I now only provide quality control for my interests and report errors that short me. I rely on the business to provide quality control for their interests and will graciously review any transaction that they believe overly benefited me.
Using fake ATM cards, printing your own UPC stickers, passing counterfeit currency, etc... are crimes.
Entering into a transaction where you pay an amount of money and receive a product or service is not a crime... Even if you get an unbelievably good deal.
Having had some experience on the periphery of KYC software, I can tell you you're wrong. The six nines is one of the checks that rings alarm bells on personal accounts, but there are plenty of others, serially depositing lower amounts being one of them.
Here in Argentina a woman won 30.000.000 in a slot machine, she took a pic with her cell phone of the machine saying so. The casino claimed that the machine was broken and that those machines don't offer that much money, 30.000 at most. So they offered her that amount. She is suing them. Now all slot machines are required to have a banner that states the maximum prize.
Nobody ever heard of the slot programmer again...
If an ATM was unplugged and didn't have an "OUT OF ORDER" sign on it, I might plug it in, thinking some kid came along and unplugged it, if I need cash.
Plugging an ATM in isn't a criminal offense.
A few months later, my mom handed me a stack of mail from the bank. Mixed in with my monthly statements I found a letter indicating that the bank had changed the terms of my account. They added a minimum balance and inactivity fees. Without any agreement from me, and certainly no clear unambigous instructions in writing, the bank drained several hundred dollars in a matter of months.