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US Blocks Entry For German Black Hat Presenter
bushwhacker2000 alerts us to the dilemma of Thomas Dullien, a prominent security researcher who has been a fixture at the annual Black Hat security conference. Dullien was denied entry into the US on his way to this year's conference. Dullien, a German reverse-engineering expert known in hacker circles as "Halvar Flake," said he was blocked from entering the US on the technicality that he had (years ago) signed a contract with Black Hat as an individual, not as his company. Customs agents said he would need an H1-B visa to perform the contracted two days of training at Black Hat, and put him on the next plane back to Germany.
Another evil terrorist plot foiled! Tax me some more so i can be even safer!
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
How is this a technicality? He didn't have a visa to do the work here that he had contracted for.
It's clear that this kind of conference is now impossible to gather in the US, so relocate it in a free country. Why not Mexico, South Am, East Asia, Russia ?
This is the reason I don't want to go to the US anymore.
Now I have to fear that the people here did not do their work properly (i.e. gave me the wrong visa application), and that I'll be rejected at the gates after standing in a huge queue before immigration at the airport.
The other reason is that after providing the security services with boatloads of personal information, fingerprints and other biometrics, some flag will go up in some obscure system, and I'll be (hopefully) sent back straight away by unnamed guys, and if I'm unlucky, get deported to the happy camp of Guantanamo inc. to have all human rights stripped from me for reasons unknown.
B.
Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
They've made it quite clear that they don't like "furriners", so why are people still pressing the issue? Canada is a free and open society, and just to the north. We have lots of conference space in environments much more conducive to rational thought.
The ignorance level when it comes to illegal aliens is amazing. Being upset about illegal aliens is one thing but the blatant racism is not only unnecessary but it just makes you look like a fucking retard.
Next time, drop the rhetoric that has been so popular against homosexuals and illegal aliens recently and instead talk about it in civil terms.
Thanks.
just sneak across the Mexico-US border. That's how everyone else gets in. Planes and paperwork? Pfffft, old school.
Table-ized A.I.
Halvar's been kicked out of the US?
This is not good. It's my understanding that once you've been kicked out, it's much, much, much harder to get back in.
That leaves me rather scared. I've known Halvar for almost six years; we were in Singapore together at Black Hat Asia. He's a very intelligent engineer, doing very good research, and has done more than almost anyone to make people realize that obfuscation is not security. We, as an industry, need his voice. (A bit cynical, but seriously, we as an American industry want his talents put to work here, rather than overseas.)
Simple arguments like -- nobody could figure out how this works, they'd have to be able to read code -- have been destroyed because of Halvar's work. You may not realize it, but without concrete examples of attacks, software developers simply cannot comprehend attacks against their code that they can't do themselves. Halvar is a critical innoculation against technically inept but vaguely plausable excuses why something must be impossible.
Halvar does the impossible regularly. Seriously, he's an artist, and the American security industry is directly harmed by not being able to learn from him. What's the story going to be? That Halvar can only do training in India, and China, and in Europe? Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Everyone else's code gets more secure while ours rots on the vine.
The only thing more embarrassing than this was when Xioyun Wang, the Chinese professor who cracked MD5, was denied entry to the US. Oh well, Halvar, I guess you're in good company...
--Dan Kaminsky
I've known artists going to conventions in the US, from Canada, who didn't fill out the proper paperwork, and were turned away at the border by US Customs. They had their artwork with them, and since they were going to sell it in the US, needed a different visa.
Not that uncommon.
... arrg ... The federal MPs are made up of elected officials from ALL OVER CANADA. I'm so sick and tired of "Ottawa" getting the wrap for what the federal government does.
If you hate the way things are look at what your MPs are doing.
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
every country has this issue. All countries don't like foreigners taken their jobs. Look into any work visa program in any country and it is extremely difficult to gain authorization and very easy to make mistakes. When I was traveling back and forth to Canada with my company I was ALWAYS sure to brief the customs people that I was not there "for work" but rather "attending business meetings." There is a large difference.
I missed the racism. Maybe it was "each one has 4 mexican kids". Kind of stereotypical but not too far above the average.
Explain it to us fucking retards, if you would.
I believe he was making a point about our laws being enforced selectively on a guy who likely was not going to "take" a job from any american, as opposed to illegal mexicans; where every job they take depresses wages and puts one of us out of work. ("us" includes americans of mexican descent, blacks, whites, guest alien workers - everybody).
Not only that, but the fact that they don't (can't) pay taxes and have to go to the emergency room for any medical care means it costs us a lot more than a lost job. Multiply that by the number of kids in the household.
Hell, if anything, a guy like this Dullien raises wages when he comes here to work, and we should be glad to have him. Not my first target in the enforcement of immigration laws.
That's one of the biggest problems in American politics today... nobody is willing to speak the truth because of constant appeals to emotion, ad hominems, character assassinations when the message is too strong to shoot down, etc.
Republicans want to starve your kids, kill the old people and erode the foundation of our country by eliminating immigration!
Democrats want to steal all your money, hate America and drive us back to the stone age!
Republicans hate minorities!
Democrats hate Christians!
Facts and logic rarely enter any political debate anymore, it's all about who can sling the most mud and frame their opponent into a seemingly evil corner.
Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
However, when you travel into USA there are certain words you should use carefully. "Work" is one of those. Don't say "I am coming to work in USA". Say "I am on business, attending a conference".
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Thank god, the US has no need of foreigners coming in and teaching. If that kind of crazy idea caught on, all hell would break loose. The population might become sufficiently educated to start to question the silly rules.
Its really simple. There are laws that you have to take into consideration before you enter another country. It is your job to know those laws or risk having your travel plans ruined. I don't carry handguns into Canada. I make sure to fill out the paperwork to carry a long gun to Canada. I get to enter Canada!
This guy just didn't know the rules and a customs agent enforced the laws. He is just doing his job. In my mind, the real news event here is that a Blackhat speaker is causing a big stink on the internet because he wasn't allowed to break the law.
If he was really wearing his 'black hat', a little social engineering would've got him into the country without a second thought.
A couple of 30-somethings embark on the ultimate roadtrip
The company I work for is a parent company of a Canadian company. The Canadian company is taking over a new contract at a large manufacturing plant in Ontario. The Canadian division of my company doesn't have the infrastructure to get the new program on its feet, and as such was bringing in a few people,3 of us to be specific, to get the new people they were hiring up to speed. None of us had any interest in taking Canadian jobs, but the hassle in getting Immigration to understand this was unnerving.
Um, only if it's not for work.
:-)
...]. Then when I landed in Toronto, they were asking to see proof of citizenship [which a driver licenses is not]. Then they asked about 20 more questions [e.g. where were you born, how long were you in the states, etc...].
My stamp from the UK explicitly states "Employment and Recourse to public funds prohibited." I think that means I can't get paid to work there... fairly certain
And for the record, the UK customs is just as nasty as the americans. Worse yet because usually I'm so f'ing tired I just don't want to deal with them. At least in the states I'm so close to home that I can put up with their asinine questions and all that.Though to be fair I've also had just as much trouble with Canadian customs [and I'm a cannuck!].
I once did a trip in 2006 to the states [actually to AMD in San Jose] on nothing more than my drivers license [I was renewing my passport]. No trouble on the way there, but on the way back the folk at the San Jose airport didn't want to let me get a boarding card [I asked them how they thought I made it to San Jose
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
This isn't an anti-american post, this is the point of view of someone outside America, so please think twice before downmodding. So, here we go.
so what? I mean, americans have this weird sense of what's right and what's wrong. For one, Spanish seems to be some kind of dirty language, something only ugly dark-skinned people speak. It's the language of evil. What's wrong with being bilingual? If schools start teaching spanish people complain. Why? I mean... "the more you know", right? If instead of speaking one language, you can speak 2? That's cool, opens a lot of possibilities.
Also, america is also ashamed of the south. You like white christmas and all that crap, and also, that's the way christmas is supposed to be. I wonder if christmas is white in Florida, or even in New Orleans? No, but you don't talk about that. People in those places go barefoot and drive in dirt roads, ewww. They also chase alligators and fish in the mississippi. I mean, if you're fishing it MUST be in some pretty lake or a crystaline river, surrounded by mountains and brown maple leaves in fucking vermont.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? There's a whole world of things, languages, foods, places, and you complain because ILLEGALS ARE TAKING OUR JOBS AND NOT PAYING TAXES! What good are taxes for? I mean, in my country I can at least get FREE medical attention, even AIDS drugs. Even if I don't have a job and don't pay taxes. Hell, even if I'm not a citizen, I can still get all of that. Do you pay your taxes? What do these taxes do anyway? You need to pay for health, food, college. In my country, at least I can CHOOSE. I can pay for health, or use the State health services (sometimes the latter is better). I can go to a private university, but I can also go (and I do) to a state-funded university (and my degree is just as good in any of them). And I can even get free food from the government (and not food stamps, to be treated like scum at the store).
Do you realize that you are living in a country that spends half of the WORLD'S combined budgets in defense? What good has it been? You had 9/11, but "nobody saw that coming". You had Katrina, but "nobody saw that coming". And it's your fault, because you whine about Wal-Mart, but still buy there. You whine about the illegal immigrants, but if you were a store owner, you would hire one. You whine about catastrophes (natural or terrorism), but you don't have the people you need, because they're fighting in a war far away, trying to STEAL resources from a poor country.
America has the potential to be a fucking PARADISE, if you only cut the crap, the fear of "socialism" and "communism", the "take care of yourself and fuck everyone else" attitude. America never sleeps, they're ever waiting for doomsday to happen, the day China, Korea, or even some crappy island in the pacific will try to attack you. But instead of just waiting, you go and provoke everyone, showing off your weapons and killing innocent people all over the world. Dude, NOTHING will happen to america. Just stop messing with the rest of the world. In the process you will save BILLIONS of dollars, that could be spent in education, health, etc. But no, you have been brainwashed into thinking "that's communism!".
What good is the government for? Are they only there to "govern" you? To tell you what to do? (You know, only in the world's worst dictatorships a police officer draws his gun and put it in your head, let alone "take you in custody" for no reason other than suspected terrorism. Oh yea, and in america that happens too. IF a police officer tells you to get out of the car, and you don't obey, you are likely to be put in front of a loaded gun, or maced. Even if your children are in the car.) You know what that is? That's the government AFRAID of you. How can you live in a country where the government is afraid of you? In my country 15 years ago we gave the people the option to have their retirement funds in a 401(k)-like system. Your money was invested, you get interests from it, etc. Now a
And no, not just because ppl should RTFA before engaging in ludicrous parochialisms.
Consider: The Copernican revolution in how the US (unlike any other Western country) deals with travellers like Halvar coming to its borders from a legal, cultural, historical perspective is in the context of a wholesale erosion of human and civil rights -- of American citizens (not the hapless foreigner popping in to educate you). Realise how these incidents do sustained damage to the US reputation, its economy and its already shockingly insular society, and you will also catch a glimpse of the loss of rights and freedoms for Americans themselves.
Disclaimer: I'm an Immigration Officer with the CBSA, but this post only contains my personal opinion and I don't represent the Government of Canada.
I'm not sure why you were modded information, since you're spreading false information.
In Canada, Public speakers at seminars or conferences that do not go longer than 5 days do not require a work permit, nor do they require a visa if they come from a visa exempt country. Please see the IRPA regulation 186(j) and the Temporary Foreign Workers policy manual section 5.11. Unfortunately, the policy manual is only available in pdf.
Q: Who Is Eligible to Use the VWP?
A: To qualify for the VWP, you must:
* Intend to enter the United States for 90 days or less;
* Have a passport lawfully issued to you by a VWP country that is valid for six months beyond your intended visit;
* Be a national of the VWP country that issued your passport;
* Have been checked using an automated electronic database containing information about inadmissible aliens to the United States;
* Have a return trip ticket to any foreign destination other than a territory bordering on the United States or an adjacent island unless:
1. You are a resident of an adjacent island,
2. This requirement is waived by the Attorney General under regulations, or
3. You are a visitor for business who arrives aboard a private aircraft that maintains a valid agreement guaranteeing to transport you out of the United States, if you are found to be inadmissible or deportable;
* Present to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officer a completed and signed Form I-94W, Nonimmigrant Visa Waiver Arrival/Departure Form. (Please see "How Do I Get an Arrival Departure Document?" for more information about arrival/departure records.);
* Not pose a safety threat to the United States;
* Not have failed to comply with the conditions of any previous admission under the Visa Waiver Program;
* If arriving by air or sea, you must arrive aboard a carrier that signed an agreement, "signatory carrier", guaranteeing to transport you out of the United States if you are found to be inadmissible or deportable;
* Convince the examining CBP officer that you are clearly and beyond a doubt entitled to be admitted and that you are not inadmissible under section 212 of the Act. For reasons that would make you inadmissible, please see the Immigration and Nationality Act at INA 212 (a);
* Waive any right to review or appeal a CBP officer's decision as to your admissibility, other than on the basis of an application for asylum or an application for withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment; and
* Waive any right to challenge your removal, other than on the basis of an application for asylum or an application for withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Overview of the Visa Waiver Program (VWP)
Absolutely right! Halvar is extraordinarily talented and it will be a terrible shame if his class is canceled. But it starts on Monday, so unless they do it by video conference I can't see him making it. I still hope to see him when I fly to Vegas on Thursday, but the odds aren't good :(.
I'd like to know just what the immigration department expects US conferences to do when bringing in foreign speakers. Halvar says they wanted to treat him like an "employee" of BlackHat and get an H1-B visa. But that is a ridiculous as it is a multi-year process. Halvar thinks coming as a representative of his own German company will help, but we shouldn't have to require that foreigners incorporate just to give a simple presentation or training class here.
I'm an American who has been paid to give presentations and training in many countries, including Germany. And I've never been hassled by their immigration dept. or received any special visas. So its embarrassing and harmful that the US subjects visitors to our country to all of this crap (including the fingerprinting and pushing other countries toward RFID passports). Its no wonder that many conference producers, including BlackHat, have been increasing the number of cons held offshore. The US just isn't seen as a welcoming place.
Pardon the long rant, but I hate seeing my friends put through this. And I'm sure similar things happen to thousands of people we don't know every day. Also, if those of us in the US don't fix our system, other countries might copy it and then we'll have to deal with this shit when we travel.
-Fyodor
Insecure.Org
What's wrong with being bilingual? If schools start teaching spanish people complain. Why? I mean... "the more you know", right? If instead of speaking one language, you can speak 2? That's cool, opens a lot of possibilities.
There's nothing wrong with being bilingual. The proponents of making the US english only see it as a means of protecting our culture, making sure that you can go anywhere in the US and be able to find help if you need it, etc. I respect people's right to do whatever they want (as long as they aren't hurting someone else) but is it really that bad to expect people who want to emigrate to your country to want to actually be a part of that country? By all means, keep your traditions, food, etc and share them with others, but you need to accept some of the culture you decided to be a part of and one of the most fundamental things that define a culture is its language.
Also factor in that, under the 14th Amendment, if you make government accessible in one alternative language, you have to do it for ALL languages (equal protection clause). I don't remember off the top of my head, but that means making every form, guide, service, etc available in more than 100 languages. I think it's cool if you want to learn the language of the family that lives next door... it's not cool for them to force their language on you. Look at the case in Maryland where a rapist had his case thrown out because they couldn't find a translator for his native language despite him graduating from an US high school which requires fluency in english and his attendence of a state university.
Also, america is also ashamed of the south. You like white christmas and all that crap, and also, that's the way christmas is supposed to be. I wonder if christmas is white in Florida, or even in New Orleans? No, but you don't talk about that. People in those places go barefoot and drive in dirt roads, ewww. They also chase alligators and fish in the mississippi. I mean, if you're fishing it MUST be in some pretty lake or a crystaline river, surrounded by mountains and brown maple leaves in fucking vermont.
There is a large cultural divide between the elitists who live in metropolitan areas in the US and those who live in the south and rural areas. You can see it right here on Slashdot pretty frequently, especially in voting related stories. You see, anyone who doesn't vote the way self-righteous "learned" people do must be idiots. It couldn't be that different people value different things and that living in different areas can give you different perspectives on life. When you're making six figures and only surrounded by similar people, it's easy to look down at anyone who doesn't. Besides, those are the peasants who provide you with things like food so they aren't so much human, they're more like servants to the narcissism of the elite.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? There's a whole world of things, languages, foods, places, and you complain because ILLEGALS ARE TAKING OUR JOBS AND NOT PAYING TAXES! What good are taxes for? I mean, in my country I can at least get FREE medical attention, even AIDS drugs. Even if I don't have a job and don't pay taxes. Hell, even if I'm not a citizen, I can still get all of that. Do you pay your taxes? What do these taxes do anyway? You need to pay for health, food, college. In my country, at least I can CHOOSE. I can pay for health, or use the State health services (sometimes the latter is better). I can go to a private university, but I can also go (and I do) to a state-funded university (and my degree is just as good in any of them). And I can even get free food from the government (and not food stamps, to be treated like scum at the store).
And such is politics. There are those believe that the government should provide everything you'll ever need. Others believe it is up to the individual to achieve those things a
Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
They should have just handed him a fucking ID card. That's what they're doing for all the rest of the illegal immigrants.
Oh Crap, I'm an optimist.....
Commercial speakers have a vested interest in the event at which they are speaking. Typically, they rent commercial space in a hotel, advertise, charge admission, deliver the event and then leave Canada. If they are doing this for no more than five days on one trip, they can enter under R186(j). This regulation covers situations where the speaker is speaking to multiple groups, as long as the duration of the speaking events is no more than five days, not counting travel time in the case of multiple engagements. Not included in R186(j) are commercial speakers who are hired by a Canadian entity to provide training services. In these cases, other entry options must be explored including HRSDC LMOs or the NAFTA Professional category which allows for professionals to provide training services under some circumstances. So if he went to Canada and said he was being paid by a Canadian company to provide training services, he would need a visa.
Ah, yes, but you missed my point. It's not about the government providing everything for free. It's about having options. It's about balance. Socialism and communism are extremes, but wild capitalism is also an extreme. I trust my government, I work already and my retirement fund is in the state system from the first day, because I chose so. My neighbor might have chosen a private retirement fund, good for him! I also chose private healthcare, but my mom is a retired "government employee" (a teacher, go figure), so she used a mix of both. You see?
Another example: Spain. France. Germany. I could go on, but those countries are, to a great extent, socialist. Are they worse than America? Don't they get better? (because you say that taking care of yourself, or your community, makes it better). Let me give you an example, and this is true. I have a friend who lives in spain, and he has a young daughter. He told me that the government sent him a letter, reminding him that the girl didn't go to the dentist in over a year. It reminded him that it was free, any dentist he wanted. Scary? I don't think so. That's what I mean by "the government taking care of you". Sure, they don't do it because it's nice, they do it because detecting a cavity early is cheaper than paying for tooth extraction or whatever. But, when was the last time your HMO sent you a letter, reminding you that you should get a check-up?
It's more of a thing of altruism I think. You may never understand me, because we see different things. Let me see if I can explain what I think: you are afraid of giving power to the government, because they will come back later to expect something from you. I see it more, you may say idealistically, but well, I think the government is the PEOPLE. The government gives me things (health, whatever), and it expects me to pay taxes, and nothing else. You too are afraid of your government, because of the way you think (warning: I'm not saying it's wrong, I just say I think different): you always expect something in return, and you think everyone else also expects something in return. Well, I think the government is more harmless than a big corporation. Sure, a huge government monopolizing everything is not healthier either.
Do I hate big corporations? Certainly not, I try to avoid them whenever I can, because you give them more power if you buy things from them. But obviously there are certain things, huge things, that can't be paid by small companies: A large scale network, like the phone, cable, well those are examples of things that can't be done by small companies.
But then you have the big corporation scandals, all over the place. Enron, Worldcom... A tiny government that allows itself to be lobbied, and that's what happens. Big corporations care only about the numbers, and WILL fuck anything they need in order to keep their numbers high enough (the premise is "it's never enough").
You also say that "Spending that money brought down the Iron Curtain and freed western Europe." What? Are you on crack or what? That money actually help build the iron curtain. The USSR wasn't as bad as you and I were told it was. If they were poor it was only because you provoked them, you made them spend more and more in weapons and military. If you weren't there to bother them, they MIGHT have been a happy communist country, and nothing else. But no, america can't stand the idea of communism, not even socialism, so we have to destroy it. You didn't free western europe either. You only went there because the japs touched your ass. It wasn't your war. Vietnam wasn't either, and you were there to "free" them.
See it this way: If you didn't shake the USSR, maybe they wouldn't have needed so many AK-47s. Those AK's wouldn't be in the hand of muslim extremists now. They wouldn't be so powerful, maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened if you didn't bring down the iron courtain. That's how I see it.
Dude, wake up. War is business. Billions of dollars in the hands of the corporations who make the weapons, and that's
Some hacker this guy is, can't even socially engineer his way into the country.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
About a month ago, some of my coworkers attended a conference on molecular spectroscopy in the US. One of the scheduled talks there was canceled because the speaker was denied entry to the US. Apparently, when the border control asked him about his profession, he said that he's an "atomic physicist".
I think if this sort of thing continues, more and more conference organizers will simply opt to hold their conferences in countries that are a bit more free.
Yes, I realize that exception exists. However, I don't think that applies in this case.
I'll give you an example of "training services": A large insurance company in Canada decides to implement service oriented architecture. They contract a consultant from the USA to come up to the company and give a few training sessions to the IT department. In this case, they would have to apply for a work permit.
I'm not really familiar with how Blackhat works, but assuming Blackhat is just a regular conference where members of the public attend on their own, then I don't see why a speaker would require a work permit to speak at the event (if it was held in Canada).
Halvar, seriously: Don't go to the US anymore.
/. would've labeled me paranoid and anti-american for that statement. Today, I fear, most will agree and some will post details of the relevant laws.
I've avoided them ever since DeCSS (I was a named defendant) and I don't plan to change that. As I see it, for a foreign national in the computer security business, pretty much anything you do while, before or potentially-might-do-after your trip can result in them locking you up indefinitely.
And the real horror is: A couple years ago, people even on
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org