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US Blocks Entry For German Black Hat Presenter
bushwhacker2000 alerts us to the dilemma of Thomas Dullien, a prominent security researcher who has been a fixture at the annual Black Hat security conference. Dullien was denied entry into the US on his way to this year's conference. Dullien, a German reverse-engineering expert known in hacker circles as "Halvar Flake," said he was blocked from entering the US on the technicality that he had (years ago) signed a contract with Black Hat as an individual, not as his company. Customs agents said he would need an H1-B visa to perform the contracted two days of training at Black Hat, and put him on the next plane back to Germany.
... next time they will just find one did not brush well enough.
Another evil terrorist plot foiled! Tax me some more so i can be even safer!
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
It sucks, but you can't expect immigration officials to randomly let people into the country just because they feel like it.
How is this a technicality? He didn't have a visa to do the work here that he had contracted for.
It's clear that this kind of conference is now impossible to gather in the US, so relocate it in a free country. Why not Mexico, South Am, East Asia, Russia ?
Would it be a problem to set-up a video conference to train these people from around the world?
"To be is to do." -Socrates
"To do is to be." -Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do-be-do-be-do." -Frank Sinatra
Meanwhile.. the Walmart in my area is in Spanish. It's full of Mexicans.. lots and lots of mexicans.. and each mexican has at least 4 mexican kids..
Do they pay taxes? Do they pay their hospital bills? Nobody knows!
Are they illegal? YES!.. BUT THAT'S OKAY!!!
--- We need more Ron Paul!
This is the reason I don't want to go to the US anymore.
Now I have to fear that the people here did not do their work properly (i.e. gave me the wrong visa application), and that I'll be rejected at the gates after standing in a huge queue before immigration at the airport.
The other reason is that after providing the security services with boatloads of personal information, fingerprints and other biometrics, some flag will go up in some obscure system, and I'll be (hopefully) sent back straight away by unnamed guys, and if I'm unlucky, get deported to the happy camp of Guantanamo inc. to have all human rights stripped from me for reasons unknown.
B.
Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
What a sensationalist article title. It's not a technicality at all, he would have been doing the training illegally. He may be a good hacker, but he certainly sucks at following proper procedure.
Cry me a river.
Who gives a shit?
He messed up, and now doesn't meet legal qualifications so he was sent home. I doubt it was some sinister plot, to enforce existing laws..
Now if we can send back the millions that DO get to come in when they shouldn't.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
They've made it quite clear that they don't like "furriners", so why are people still pressing the issue? Canada is a free and open society, and just to the north. We have lots of conference space in environments much more conducive to rational thought.
just sneak across the Mexico-US border. That's how everyone else gets in. Planes and paperwork? Pfffft, old school.
Table-ized A.I.
Yeah, except you can't take paid speaking engagements up here without a work visa either.
He wasn't denied because the session was on security, he was denied because he's NOT ALLOWED TO WORK THERE without proper approval.
He would have been deported from Canada for the exact same reason had he told them the same story. In fact, if he wasn't a member of the EU he would have also been deported from Ireland, the UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, etc, etc, etc....
So while Canada is cool and all [hey I live in Ottawa], it's not a safe haven for illegal aliens either. They have to file fraudulent "refugee" claims like the rest of the population of Toronto.
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Halvar's been kicked out of the US?
This is not good. It's my understanding that once you've been kicked out, it's much, much, much harder to get back in.
That leaves me rather scared. I've known Halvar for almost six years; we were in Singapore together at Black Hat Asia. He's a very intelligent engineer, doing very good research, and has done more than almost anyone to make people realize that obfuscation is not security. We, as an industry, need his voice. (A bit cynical, but seriously, we as an American industry want his talents put to work here, rather than overseas.)
Simple arguments like -- nobody could figure out how this works, they'd have to be able to read code -- have been destroyed because of Halvar's work. You may not realize it, but without concrete examples of attacks, software developers simply cannot comprehend attacks against their code that they can't do themselves. Halvar is a critical innoculation against technically inept but vaguely plausable excuses why something must be impossible.
Halvar does the impossible regularly. Seriously, he's an artist, and the American security industry is directly harmed by not being able to learn from him. What's the story going to be? That Halvar can only do training in India, and China, and in Europe? Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Everyone else's code gets more secure while ours rots on the vine.
The only thing more embarrassing than this was when Xioyun Wang, the Chinese professor who cracked MD5, was denied entry to the US. Oh well, Halvar, I guess you're in good company...
--Dan Kaminsky
Maybe (definitely) a bit off topic, but reading this stuff just pisses me off a bit... What did the US ever achieve with all of its draconian checks and procedures in airports and all of their visa crap? Other than (borderline) infringing on the privacy of many innocent individuals it will never be able to stop the most determined people with bad intentions (or desperate Mexican or other immigrants at that). It is deeply disturbing that the USA hands out billions to Israel for military purposes whilst on the other hand supplying Egypt, Saudi Arabia and God knows who else with weapons. What are they expecting? Arming to groups of people who have had beef for ages to the teeth and then expecting everybody to play nice? They are just creating their own (and everybody elses) problems. No measure of retina scans, fingerprinting and other niceties will ever be able to avert the inevitable consequences their foreign policy will have.
Tom, you appear to need further context to understand the original poster's statement.
The current administration of the United States has made "fighting terrorism" their top priority. As I imagine you are well aware, they have started two major armed conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq as part of their so-called "War on Terror". Domestically, there was the PATRIOT Act, the No Fly list, the hassling of innocent photographers, and a wide spectrum of other activities performed in the name of "defending the Homeland".
However, at the very same time we have many of the same members of the administration pushing for lax immigration laws. Some even support amnesty for illegal workers from countries like Mexico, Vietnam, and Guatemala. Some of the proposals we've heard of so far make no mention of screening these aliens who are already in the United States.
So in this case, we have a highly-educated and very legitimate individual wishing to share his advanced security knowledge with a number of Americans. Yet he endures nothing but hassle and expense from the American officials. On the other hand, the same people crying about there not being enough security in America turn around and want to legitimize currently-illegal workers from third-world countries. Mind you, many of these workers are highly uneducated, often criminal, and usually able to do little more than work as a janitor.
To any normal person, it seems stupid that a country with such a fixation on security would turn away a security expert for such a minor reason, while at the same time wanting to legitimize the status of the millions of illegal aliens who are probably far more of a security risk.
I sure wish those goons would show up at the house down the street from me that is occupied by 4 illegal alien families, and deport them for not having the right visa...
But of course that would be racism, deporting 4 mexican families who have been violating immigration laws for years and letting some guy into the US for less than a week on a business trip he's been making without incident for years.
The US govt is incompetent in SOOO many ways, but they're pretty damn good at rigorous enforcement of this double standard.
Yeah, Canada's huge on handing out working visas. Maybe you should have read the article, or perhaps the summary, or a few of the comments before swimming straight out of your depth.
On the other hand, you bashed the US. That's an automatic insightful around here.
Utter BS. Where do you get that kind of information?!
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
Maybe if the powers in Ottawa [home of the federal government, responsible for immigration policies and legislation] move their ass, it would be less of an option to file fraudulent refugee claims in Toronto.
While I do think that Homeland "Security" is out of control, this doesn't seem like a good example of it.
Put yourself in custom's shoes.
You search a bag and find a bunch of materials for black hat hacking.
Maybe you look up Blackhat Hacking on wikipedia:
"A black-hat is a term in computing for someone who compromises the security of a system without permission from an authorized party, usually with the intent of accessing computers connected to the network."
You ask the guy about it and say, "Are you getting paid to present these materials?"
"Yes."
"Do you have a permit to work in the USA?"
"No."
In your mind, case closed at that point. I'm sorry this happened, but is it really so shocking?
The more you know, the less you understand.
He had the wrong fucking visa, why are there so many people here who hate the US saying ZOMG HE GOT DEPORTZ0R3D FCUK THE UNITED STATES I HATE AMERICANS? Big fucking deal people, it happens every day. You just get all inflamed over the stupidest things. Now go back to being afraid that the evil Americans are going to send you to Guantanamo because you picked your nose in the customs line. Fucktards.
If you read the article you would see it wasn't immigration that stopped him it was customs when they searched his bags and found the training materials.
So is was a technicality that he did not get into the country. He passed through immigration one time, then got stopped because of training material in the suitcase, which led to the interview after which he was deported.
Because I've been to Ireland, UK, France, Romania, and Switzerland.
In all but France have I been told that working is strictly forbidden. So unless he lived in a country that had a treaty, he probably wouldn't be able to work there [hence the non-EU comment].
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
... arrg ... The federal MPs are made up of elected officials from ALL OVER CANADA. I'm so sick and tired of "Ottawa" getting the wrap for what the federal government does.
If you hate the way things are look at what your MPs are doing.
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
every country has this issue. All countries don't like foreigners taken their jobs. Look into any work visa program in any country and it is extremely difficult to gain authorization and very easy to make mistakes. When I was traveling back and forth to Canada with my company I was ALWAYS sure to brief the customs people that I was not there "for work" but rather "attending business meetings." There is a large difference.
However, when you travel into USA there are certain words you should use carefully. "Work" is one of those. Don't say "I am coming to work in USA". Say "I am on business, attending a conference".
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Well at least he wasn't denied entry and/or sent to Gitmo on DMCA grounds.
He should have just snuck across the Southern Border. The administration doen't seem to have a problem with the thousands of people who have done it already.
Thank god, the US has no need of foreigners coming in and teaching. If that kind of crazy idea caught on, all hell would break loose. The population might become sufficiently educated to start to question the silly rules.
Canada's really no better, I got held by Canadian immigration at Ottawa airport and pretty much interrogated for 3 hours the first time I ever visited. I'm not pretending it's a common occurance but they asked many things they have no business asking (What my income is for example) and made a record of this as I've been back 5 times since and whilst I never got sent through to the immigration office since they've still brought up various parts of the original interrogation. They also searched the contents of my laptop, opening various personal documents (C.V. etc.) and took my fingerprint and my photo.
I was only there for a holiday and frankly it's the worst I've ever been treated by any customs/immigration service in any country (including the US). Don't get me wrong however, I completely agree with the sentiment of your post, however I think you'll find most customs/immigration services have their fair share of assholes who like powertripping with people powerless to do anything - during my ordeal I was told they'd send me home on the next flight back if I was lying on a few occasions even though I told them the gods honest truth in answer to every question.
In hindsight I wish I'd challenged them more, because I'm not convinced many of the things they asked me were within their legal remit although I could be wrong, furthermore they clearly logged data which again I'm pretty sure isn't in their legal remit, however after contacting the Canadian embassy in London for information on how I could put forward a complaint I was told the only way was to fax them and that it could take upto 3 months for a response to each fax which frankly was pretty useless.
If you really want a free country to host this type of convention try Norway or Sweden perhaps, when I went to Narvik it was literally straight off the plane, into the arrivals lounge and out the airport, that is, there was absolutely no checking of passports at all however this could presumably be because they figure if British airport security is letting them through then they must have been checked rigorously enough to get through Norwegian seemingly non-existent airport security.
The company I work for is a parent company of a Canadian company. The Canadian company is taking over a new contract at a large manufacturing plant in Ontario. The Canadian division of my company doesn't have the infrastructure to get the new program on its feet, and as such was bringing in a few people,3 of us to be specific, to get the new people they were hiring up to speed. None of us had any interest in taking Canadian jobs, but the hassle in getting Immigration to understand this was unnerving.
I thought they would have learned by now not to have security conferences in the US. Anyway, US visa and dealing with DHS (immigration) is so difficult that anyone who is expecting international attendees should pick some other country to host the conference. There is a short list of countries (Western Europe, high-income countries in Asia) where people can easily get visas to the US. For people not from those countries it can be nearly impossible to get a visa. And even for Western Europeans and high-income Asians, they can still get turned away upon arrival. This country is not a good pick for hosting international conferences.
I know the feeling. I was employee #5 of AMD Canada [oddly enough based in San Jose California]. Needless to say their Canadian operations are really small. Mostly just sales folk. I think I was the only software engineer.
... :-)
Had a lot of messed up hiring dealings since the HR staff is based in the states. They actually had Canadian forms though for things like taxes though. But occasionally I'd be asked for my SSN or be offered a W-2
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
It's a conference. If you want to attend a conference in Europe, you present your invitation and are issued a visa.
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
Halvar was wrong for not having the correct visa. That being said, the government should probably spend their money going after the millions of people who come in illegally through the Mexican border, with the intent to stay a lot longer than a week, instead of a single German guy doing a little work and attending a conference. Not to mention, it is quite possible that terrorists are crossing the Mexican border to get in, now that we have 'no-fly lists' and 'watch lists'.
Um, only if it's not for work.
:-)
...]. Then when I landed in Toronto, they were asking to see proof of citizenship [which a driver licenses is not]. Then they asked about 20 more questions [e.g. where were you born, how long were you in the states, etc...].
My stamp from the UK explicitly states "Employment and Recourse to public funds prohibited." I think that means I can't get paid to work there... fairly certain
And for the record, the UK customs is just as nasty as the americans. Worse yet because usually I'm so f'ing tired I just don't want to deal with them. At least in the states I'm so close to home that I can put up with their asinine questions and all that.Though to be fair I've also had just as much trouble with Canadian customs [and I'm a cannuck!].
I once did a trip in 2006 to the states [actually to AMD in San Jose] on nothing more than my drivers license [I was renewing my passport]. No trouble on the way there, but on the way back the folk at the San Jose airport didn't want to let me get a boarding card [I asked them how they thought I made it to San Jose
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
That was the point though he wasn't just attending the conference, that is an entirely different discussion.
He was getting paid to do work in the US, and that is a touchy issue going into most countries.
TFA states that he is German. So he can work in any EU country, without any need for a visa. Except for the UK, he wouldn't even need to show a passport at the border.
And "we fuzzed, but it was wrapped in an exception handler" is crazy talk. The debugger gets first notification of any exception, before the exception handler - if you are fuzzing without noting down all the exceptions that occur, you're living in ... uhm ... 2001 ?
This is why he got banned..
?
And no, not just because ppl should RTFA before engaging in ludicrous parochialisms.
Consider: The Copernican revolution in how the US (unlike any other Western country) deals with travellers like Halvar coming to its borders from a legal, cultural, historical perspective is in the context of a wholesale erosion of human and civil rights -- of American citizens (not the hapless foreigner popping in to educate you). Realise how these incidents do sustained damage to the US reputation, its economy and its already shockingly insular society, and you will also catch a glimpse of the loss of rights and freedoms for Americans themselves.
A lot of comments saying that the US is not a free country - So "free" countries have to let anybody cross their borders ? There are rules governing entry for work, vacation, etc. Every single country in Europe, the Middle East, the Far East and every other place I have ever been has the same requirements or much more so. If you want to visit the US, follow the rules, or don't bother coming - I would expect no different treatment in any other country that has the sense to control its borders....
Citizens of my country need visas to enter US even as a tourists. US administration says they could lift visas in case that over (say) 85% of visa aplications in recent past got approved. This would be fair, if giving aproval or denying visa was without an arbitrary element. But it's got. So there is a catch 22. This arbitrary element is conversation with an embassy office worker.
To make things worse, they sometimes employ people who apparently hate being here and hate local people.
I never had problems with geting my visa, but altogether this is very humiliating process. And now, since "war of 'terror'" entering US is even more humiliating...
This is the 1st time I've posted anonymously, I believe a little caution is in order.
I'm an engineer from Canada. Sometimes, we get a contract from an American prime. As part of that, I travel to the US to do some of the work. Since I'm not being paid by an American company I usually get past the border without the need for a work permit.
Sometimes, an enthusiastic border agent (aka odious prick), decides I need a work permit. I'm looking at it right now, it's apparently called an I-94, whatever that is. It costs $50.
When I was working as a contractor for a US prime that has a facility in Canada, they arranged for me to work assignments at their US facilities without requiring this. Although, one time the border morons sent me into the naughty bin and gave me some piece of paper, I don't know what it was, it didn't cost anything.
Sometimes they don't require me to have any sort of permit.
The last trip, when they made me buy this I-94 thing, the agent in the naughty bin told me "engineers aren't exactly in demand." Yes ma'am whatever you say ma'am. Thinking: moron. When I arrived at the facility where I'm working, my super is Canadian, the guy I work with most closely is a brit, the office is full of people from France, Russia, and lots of Canadians. They pay us a lot. As far as I can tell, Americans aren't available because they are all working massive defense contracts that are sucking up the local talent and distorting the job market. If it wasn't for us foreigners, this company I'm working for, a high profile sub for a very high profile civilian aircraft program you have all heard of, would be fucked.
All through the cold war, when the USSR truly wanted to destroy the US, AND the USSR had backpack nukes, the US/Canada border was open. If the border could be open then, when one or 2 individuals could have walked into the US with a nuke, very realistically, why do I need a passport now? It's bullshit. The US and Canada have integrated economies, now more than ever, but the horseshit ignorance that drives US decisions about everything these days trumps...trumps what? Reality?
Who the fuck knows what some border agent is going to decide one day. Maybe he'll find out about that, er, thing that happened in college. Maybe he'll see a name that looks like mine on some fucked up list. Maybe his girlfriend cheated on him. Maybe he saw a Bruce Willis movie the night before. One of these days I'm going to be send back home, or worse, for some bullshit reason, unable to work.
And trust me people, I'm exactly, precisely, like everyone else here.The company I work for is a parent company of a Canadian company. The Canadian company is taking over a new contract at a large manufacturing plant in Ontario. The Canadian division of my company doesn't have the infrastructure to get the new program on its feet, and as such was bringing in a few people,3 of us to be specific, to get the new people they were hiring up to speed. None of us had any interest in taking Canadian jobs, but the hassle in getting Immigration to understand this was unnerving.
So, you will be working in Canada - if you're not a Canadian citizen or permanent resident, you are not entitled to work in Canada without a visa. As is the case in most countries, foreigners are not entitled to work without a visa, so GO GET A VISA YOU IDIOT!!!!
There is even a special category of visas for people like you (working for the same company or a subsidiary), not to mention other visas you might qualify for, like the TN (NAFTA) visa. The paperwork is very easy, but you have to do it.
The fact that your company didn't bother to file the paperwork is the cause of your problems, and it reflects poorly on your company. If your company owns a subsidiary in a different country, one might have thought your company would be familiar with the procedures to send staff in both directions across the border for work purposes.
Look, if you have no idea what you are doing when it comes to immigration law (and many people don't), then go ask an expert - an immigration lawyer. If this is for your business, it will be a deductible expense.
Bunch of idiots. You're going to have a hell of a time in the global marketplace.
And I'll let you have it *real* cheap.
Of course he was denied because the session was on security. He'd been allowed to do this for years, and was only stopped when they looked at his literature.
The reality of the situation is that once you have a serious terrorist attack or two on your soil then everything gets clamped down a bit more. No one wants to be the person who lets the next would-be terrorist into the country. This means that everyone from the top down doesn't have any desire to bend the rules a bit to make life easier. Even with this we still have a fairly free and open society here in the USA, most likely just as free and open as Canadian society.
Maybe you should exercise some of that "free and open" thought that you are trumpeting and try to understand the whole situation rather than just being nasty about it?
Sapere aude!
Disclaimer: I'm an Immigration Officer with the CBSA, but this post only contains my personal opinion and I don't represent the Government of Canada.
I'm not sure why you were modded information, since you're spreading false information.
In Canada, Public speakers at seminars or conferences that do not go longer than 5 days do not require a work permit, nor do they require a visa if they come from a visa exempt country. Please see the IRPA regulation 186(j) and the Temporary Foreign Workers policy manual section 5.11. Unfortunately, the policy manual is only available in pdf.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
Could we keep folks from Michigan/Kansas and other places north away from OKC please?
The US has always has a bad rep concerning immigration, read "foreigners". I would posit that most of the non-native ancestry US citizens would not be here if the immigration standards for their ancestors had been stricter than breathing, strong back and no pink eye.
Well, at least he got away. Luckily he wasn't sent on a plane to Gitmo. For the rest who probably should stay away for their own safety, there's always tele-conferencing. The US has become hostile terrortory. Please hold the event in Canada(maybe) next time. Or just est up a bunch of cameras and monitors in the stadium and everybody can participate safely from their homes...if they're not Americans, or probably Germans (KisMAC) as the case may be.
What?
Bad German !! Stay out of OUR COUNTRY, Nazi !! This is the land of the FREE, not of TERRORISTs of the 3rd Reich !! You want to screw up a country, move to Brazil with the rest of your gestapo friends.
Green Blackboards (And Other Anomalies)
Sapere aude!
Q: Who Is Eligible to Use the VWP?
A: To qualify for the VWP, you must:
* Intend to enter the United States for 90 days or less;
* Have a passport lawfully issued to you by a VWP country that is valid for six months beyond your intended visit;
* Be a national of the VWP country that issued your passport;
* Have been checked using an automated electronic database containing information about inadmissible aliens to the United States;
* Have a return trip ticket to any foreign destination other than a territory bordering on the United States or an adjacent island unless:
1. You are a resident of an adjacent island,
2. This requirement is waived by the Attorney General under regulations, or
3. You are a visitor for business who arrives aboard a private aircraft that maintains a valid agreement guaranteeing to transport you out of the United States, if you are found to be inadmissible or deportable;
* Present to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officer a completed and signed Form I-94W, Nonimmigrant Visa Waiver Arrival/Departure Form. (Please see "How Do I Get an Arrival Departure Document?" for more information about arrival/departure records.);
* Not pose a safety threat to the United States;
* Not have failed to comply with the conditions of any previous admission under the Visa Waiver Program;
* If arriving by air or sea, you must arrive aboard a carrier that signed an agreement, "signatory carrier", guaranteeing to transport you out of the United States if you are found to be inadmissible or deportable;
* Convince the examining CBP officer that you are clearly and beyond a doubt entitled to be admitted and that you are not inadmissible under section 212 of the Act. For reasons that would make you inadmissible, please see the Immigration and Nationality Act at INA 212 (a);
* Waive any right to review or appeal a CBP officer's decision as to your admissibility, other than on the basis of an application for asylum or an application for withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment; and
* Waive any right to challenge your removal, other than on the basis of an application for asylum or an application for withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Overview of the Visa Waiver Program (VWP)
It's a question US Customs always ask when you go to a conference in the US -- do you carry merchandise or are you going to get any sort of payment. If the answer is yes to either, you can't normally use a visitor visa (or visa waiver like Germans and some others can).
Thousands of government computers mysteriously crashed today. Official spokesman stated "sunspots" as the probable cause.
The reality of the situation is that once you have a serious terrorist attack or two on your soil then everything gets clamped down a bit more. No one wants to be the person who lets the next would-be terrorist into the country.
I don't think it has much to do with terrorism actually (except to the extent that "terrorism" is the current administration's general purpose excuse for just about everything).
It's really easy to get a U.S. tourist or student visa, and they're every bit as useful to a potential terrorist as a work visa. The U.S.'s stupidity with regard to work visas has far more to do with domestic politics ("protecting jobs" is a vote getter -- and most of the people who are thus disadvantaged can't vote!).
[Other countries do the same thing of course, but in my experience (having worked abroad in several different countries), the U.S. is just worse: in many first-world countries, if the company really wants to hire you, it's a pretty sure bet you'll be able to get a work visa/permit (there are typically tough sounding rules, but companies know how to deal with them); in the U.S. it's much more of a crapshoot, regardless of what the company does.]
We live, as we dream -- alone....
Absolutely right! Halvar is extraordinarily talented and it will be a terrible shame if his class is canceled. But it starts on Monday, so unless they do it by video conference I can't see him making it. I still hope to see him when I fly to Vegas on Thursday, but the odds aren't good :(.
I'd like to know just what the immigration department expects US conferences to do when bringing in foreign speakers. Halvar says they wanted to treat him like an "employee" of BlackHat and get an H1-B visa. But that is a ridiculous as it is a multi-year process. Halvar thinks coming as a representative of his own German company will help, but we shouldn't have to require that foreigners incorporate just to give a simple presentation or training class here.
I'm an American who has been paid to give presentations and training in many countries, including Germany. And I've never been hassled by their immigration dept. or received any special visas. So its embarrassing and harmful that the US subjects visitors to our country to all of this crap (including the fingerprinting and pushing other countries toward RFID passports). Its no wonder that many conference producers, including BlackHat, have been increasing the number of cons held offshore. The US just isn't seen as a welcoming place.
Pardon the long rant, but I hate seeing my friends put through this. And I'm sure similar things happen to thousands of people we don't know every day. Also, if those of us in the US don't fix our system, other countries might copy it and then we'll have to deal with this shit when we travel.
-Fyodor
Insecure.Org
Re: Visa insanity down south.
Move Blackhat 2008 to one of Canada's many lovely cities just across the border.
Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are close, safe, and charming places to hold conferences with lots of good convention centre space, and no visa insanity either..
Really, is it that hard?
Mike him well, put the camera on a stand (3/4 body) and do the lecture online.
Seriously, call him on Skype and send it from the laptop to a big ass screen, we did that for our grandmother's birthday so right now she's waaaaay more tech savvy than these sad sallies.
Don't want to get bombed? Don't bomb other people.
It really is that simple. The blowback you are now receiving was entirely predictable, and you have no justification to complain about it now.
Problem is, I can't think of where I'd rather live, all things considered.
What's crazy is that everyone else thinks the US is too far to the "right", too "wild west", what with all our guns and remains of a laizee faire economy. Me? I'd like more guns, fewer laws, more open trade, no more tariffs or subsidies.
I certainly like that Germany makes the worlds finest cars, has excellent public transit, fantastic roads, beautiful architecture and countryside, and makes lots of smart people. But they're a step in the wrong direction in many of the freedoms I care about.
For instance, in Germany home schooling is illegal, so I can't very well live there because as much as I dislike the amount of school choice available to me here in the US, I get even less of it in Germany. Even if the choices might be quite a bit better than what I have here, the only choice that I really need ("No thanks, I'll indoctrinate my child MY way instead of letting you indoctrinate him YOUR way") is unavailable to me.
If there were somewhere that truly had more individual freedoms than the US, I'd think pretty carefully about moving there. Freedoms meaning "free from having to do things the way other people tell you to do them".
If I had any say in running the US, things would be different. I'd let as many brilliant people into my country as we had room for, (which would attract more brilliant people, who are good at making more room!). But, I don't have any say. Libertarians have no voice in American politics, and America is growing the hydra heads of big government that pushed many people away from Europe in the first place... and yet we're coming up with some of our own unique stupidity that makes the mix that much more sour.
So if you've got any suggestions on places to live that respect individual liberty, let me hear em. I'm happy to contribute my talents to whomever will unshackle me to do my best work and live my life to the fullset.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I am well aware of all of this now, and I do in fact have a TN NAFTA Visa/Work Permit. And though there was a division in Canada, this was in fact the first time that the company had dealt with this.
You missed the general point of my statement though. I admit that not being aware of what needed to be done wasn't a good situation. My point was that at least in my, albeit limited, experience every country has rules like this. Thinking that this is something special where US Immigration was out to target this guy is probably not true in the least bit.
from Mexico...
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
You know, i live here in the US, and I find your comment completely distasteful and derogatory and make me ashamed that you might be one of our citizens. ENOUGH with the blumin because of terrorism. You want to hide in a hole somewhere, fine, go do it, most of us would like to keep our lives the way they are.
Thank you very much.
They should have just handed him a fucking ID card. That's what they're doing for all the rest of the illegal immigrants.
Oh Crap, I'm an optimist.....
Don't feel too bad. I paid FICA for three years working in Toronto for the local branch of a Santa Monica company.
I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
Commercial speakers have a vested interest in the event at which they are speaking. Typically, they rent commercial space in a hotel, advertise, charge admission, deliver the event and then leave Canada. If they are doing this for no more than five days on one trip, they can enter under R186(j). This regulation covers situations where the speaker is speaking to multiple groups, as long as the duration of the speaking events is no more than five days, not counting travel time in the case of multiple engagements. Not included in R186(j) are commercial speakers who are hired by a Canadian entity to provide training services. In these cases, other entry options must be explored including HRSDC LMOs or the NAFTA Professional category which allows for professionals to provide training services under some circumstances. So if he went to Canada and said he was being paid by a Canadian company to provide training services, he would need a visa.
Now keep your military to yourself.
Duh, just come across at the Rio Grande, dude.
I would say "Join us in Canada", but I don't know how much further that will take you. We have "more taxes", but that pretty much evens out when you factor American healthcare costs.
We have lots of parties getting votes and seats. A few of which are definitely "not" trying to fight to "be in the middle" and win all of the votes. We have more or less the same freedoms as Americans, but way (way, way) less guns and a way smaller army.
We have tons and tons and tons of space and more than enough natural resources for this lifetime. So when things start to go south for the USD (maybe too late), the CDN won't be dragged too far, b/c it's still "cashable", it still has value. Of course, it's only a matter of time before the world's biggest army annexes the world's biggest peacekeepers. At which point I guess you'll have more fresh air :(
Posting as AC but lurking /. since 98.
As many attendants of the Debconf organized here two years ago. Mexico now requires visa for the visitors, I guess this was due to pressure of the US.
That may be true, but according to his post it isn't Halvar's understanding of the situation.
;-)
Perhaps you should consider a different argument, don't the facts of this case already prove that his understanding of things is not very reliable?
we don't want you here anyway. you have nothing to offer anyway.
All through the cold war, when the USSR truly wanted to destroy the US, AND the USSR had backpack nukes, the US/Canada border was open. If the border could be open then, when one or 2 individuals could have walked into the US with a nuke, very realistically, why do I need a passport now? It's bullshit.
Overall I appreciate your post, but this one point is terribly superficial. The USSR was not suicidal, it's leaders loved their children and wanted them to live and prosper, they did not view a WW3'ish scenario as a prophesized day of judgement where those fighting in the jihad get a free ticket to paradise.
And next year the hold the con in Germany so as to avoid this. Honestly though is it a big deal? He's (was) already here, just let him go to the freaking con. I hope at least they didn't charge him for the flight back..
Some hacker this guy is, can't even socially engineer his way into the country.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
You'll also note that I didn't say that I AGREED with the terrorism angle, I simply stated that's the reason WHY it is happening.
Really people, this is Slashdot - news for nerds and all. I figured that geeks would be a step above the usual sheep you meet walking the streets but apparently the sheep post here too...
Sapere aude!
It is easy to be smug when you have like a dozen people employed in the tech sector.
Certainly Canada has some advantages... its not too far to visit relatives in the US, and unless you're dealing with quebec sepratists, there's not much of a language barrier.
However, Canada has some strange things like a blank media tax, and some upsetting free speech concerns. Something comes to mind about it being a hate crime in Canada for a pastor to state that they think homosexuality is sinful/immoral. I don't tend to concern myself with the morality of other peoples sexuality, but I concern myself a lot with what the government says I can and cannot say. Although just this week a kid in the US has been charged with 2 felony hate crimes for flushing Qurans in the toilet of his college.. so apparently the US is just as bad now.
I have taken a trip to Montreal and the women are fantastic looking (although now that I'm married, that's not quite the draw it might have once been), and they have their own F1 GP there, which simply has to be a better experience than going to the US GP in Indianpolis, because Montreal is in all manners a less awful place than Indianpolis.
The canadians I've met have all had two things in common. 1) They're funny. 2) They're laid back. I could do with more of those sorts of people, honestly.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
Let me tell you my story. I had to go to south america and there was no direct flight. So I ahd to land in the US. Well the funny things is, apparantly I needed a visa because I land at some airport in the US jsut to go on to the next country. I mean don't they have special corridor for people which don't stan the country and have an onward flight outside the US ? Well to continue I needed a visa. When I told the clerk at the US consulat he told me I needed a kind of business visa. But I have no freaking business in the US, I asked him why I could not get a tourist visa. But he was adamanet. After that I asked him how long it would takes. Then he went on and spoke about checking stuff and so on. I came back crestfallen to my firm. They told me "no worry". I don't know what they did but apparently they made a few phone call, sent me with a letter. 1 or 2 weeks later I had a 10 year B visa.
Morality :
1) the US apparentely require business visa for all sort of kind of reason nobody in his right mind require a visa.
2) don't try to get one as individual, let your firm do it
3) next time I have to stay only a few day for whatever reason and I am not paid on the premise, then I will DOWNRIGHT FUCKING LIE that I am a tourist.
You're rather ignorant, though.
Kuwait (not a democracy, by the way) drilled diagonal wells into Iraq's oil fields. Iraq signaled its intention to defend those oil fields via diplomatic channels to the US, and the US approved of them. So yes, Gulf War 1.0 was quite random and uncalled for.
Man, I had forgotten what it feels to not care what someone might do to you or whatever. Just do what you want, and chances are nobody will mind it. It has a dark side, too, drivers usually speed up when you try to cross in front of them. You know, the stronger one wins. Oh, and there's never enough money for everything, but anyways... If you haven't yet, try it. If you have the guts. And the women... Damn, I miss home...
About a month ago, some of my coworkers attended a conference on molecular spectroscopy in the US. One of the scheduled talks there was canceled because the speaker was denied entry to the US. Apparently, when the border control asked him about his profession, he said that he's an "atomic physicist".
I think if this sort of thing continues, more and more conference organizers will simply opt to hold their conferences in countries that are a bit more free.
Especially since the US considers anyone not from NATO/SATO a potential terrorist.
/. ers and ACLU types want to give the same government that demonstrated this little lack of common sense more power.
But hey, lots of
,br> Remember: The opposition will have that power sooner or later, and the guy who enforces it is, at best just trying to make a living, at worst easily corruptible.
Actually, on the last point, if this had happened in Lat-Am, a few $$ would have made it all OK.
Yes, I realize that exception exists. However, I don't think that applies in this case.
I'll give you an example of "training services": A large insurance company in Canada decides to implement service oriented architecture. They contract a consultant from the USA to come up to the company and give a few training sessions to the IT department. In this case, they would have to apply for a work permit.
I'm not really familiar with how Blackhat works, but assuming Blackhat is just a regular conference where members of the public attend on their own, then I don't see why a speaker would require a work permit to speak at the event (if it was held in Canada).
I thought that work regulations do not concern lectures and short trainings? And least it is how it seemed to work in most civilized countries... :-)
Halvar, seriously: Don't go to the US anymore.
/. would've labeled me paranoid and anti-american for that statement. Today, I fear, most will agree and some will post details of the relevant laws.
I've avoided them ever since DeCSS (I was a named defendant) and I don't plan to change that. As I see it, for a foreign national in the computer security business, pretty much anything you do while, before or potentially-might-do-after your trip can result in them locking you up indefinitely.
And the real horror is: A couple years ago, people even on
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Yes, the border with Eire has never had passport checks. Oddly enough, this situation persisted all through the "troubles", when terrorists were regularly travelling from Ireland to the UK and blowing things up. Yet the current situation, where UK citizens are rebelling against their own government and blowing things up, is being used as an excuse for tighter border controls.
It's time we europeans do the same to americans coming in our country. they treath us all as potential terrorists or a security issue.
Let's start retaliante in the same way to them.
Starting fingerprinting them (as brazil already do) and requiring this new passport that they require us for entering in their "land of freedom".
Let's asking them the same informations (and db them) they require from foregneirs to enter in their country.
Let's send them back to their land since their are coming from a country that is accountable for international instability.
You might want to consult the grandfather of all things free:
J.S.Mills, 'On liberty'.
There you'll find all the good reasons for _not_ allowing parents to indoctrinate their kids.
The foremost of these is: Ensure the freedom of _all_ people, including the kids.
No human shall be 'indoctrinated', and the only way to ensure this is to have a public education system.
Ideally without political meddling, corporate 'sponsorship' and the like. Though I have to admit, we're far from that.
But it's still better than to allow every christian fundamentalist/creationist to 'educate' his children about safer sex, gay marriage, free will, biology and the like - and we've got plenty of those, though they've learned to coexist with others after we fought for 30 years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_years_war ).
Of course you're not 'one of those'. But how shall we tell the difference?
Try Somalia, or Nigeria or somewhere like that, then. Seriously, do you think more guns and fewer laws makes a good place to live?
You mean countries where the laws are valid for all, where decisions are taken in a true democratic fashion, where elections can be trusted and where even the top people go to jail if they lie instead of exempting themselves from over 250 or so?
That's not the US then, it starts to look more and more like a SPOE (Single Point Of Evil - vs Axis thereof). Disappointing for a nation with so much capability to do good..
I would suspect that immigrations has quotas of how many people they need to reject. If they haven't reached their quota yet, then anyone who doesn't have his papers correct the first time is fair game.
There is something fundamentally wrong with this picture! This fellow was to come for a presentation, not to STEAL JOBS. Germans don't come to STEAL JOBS. They have a better quality of life than we Yankees. We all know who gets the H1B's. We all know who comes to STEAL JOBS. Can't you all hear George Harrison playing in the background? We can't have any violation of stereotypes for that would lead to unacceptable chaos. Those customs agents must have failed Ethnocentrism 101. Send them back to screwel!
Submission as evidence constitutes plaintiff and/or prosecutorial misconduct.
I planned to attend a scientific conference @ National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Green bank, WV a couple of months ago, and I was granted my visa on the same day which was a pleasant surprise since it usually takes a couple of weeks for Kuwaitis to get the visitors visa. I had everything prepared, the invitation letter from the conference folks, my hotel reservations..etc. I even printed my conference paper and kept with me at all times in case someone asks!
So once I arrive the airport and go to the passport counters, I'm told that my address is not valid, as I need a 'street address'. But there was no 'street' address per se for NRAO, it was a cross of two highways, and the address given contained a PO Box number from the conference folks. So I was asked to correct the address, but I cannot use my cellphone, there are no pay phones around! How am I suppose to contact the conference folks to get more information? Eventually, we had to put the hotel address that we planned to stay in for a day in VA before leaving to WV. The officer at the counter asked us why we were late in filling the I-94 application, so I explained to him what happened, and then I do to go through what is euphemistically called 'Special Registration Procedure'.
It involved waiting for 3 hours in the airport, then meeting another officer, get asked the same questions again, and have the visa in my passport marked with something so that every time I enter an airport, we almost get strip search. We also had to collect residence hall receipts, receipt from the conference so we can prove that we did attend the conference on our 'exit interview' which if we don't do, we'll be refused future entry to the US.
We didn't have problems in our exist interview, and I felt relived when I finally entered the airplane. It almost feel like being on parole or something. Having been through all of that, I don't think I'll be visiting the US anytime soon.
I am sure am glad they didn't send Einstein back to Germany because he forgot to bring form Q-877 with him from the motherland.
isn't that the guy o gona "show" some nice little/big tricks on some nice little/big O.S and gadgets..
maybe...
He was certainly denined entry for not having a "B-1" visa (Not H-1B). Sounds like he attempted to enter on a "B-2" (Tourist) visa.
It's Mr Nmap! LOL!
Its about time it becomes a little more difficult to get into this country. Its no secret about the visas. Who cares if he's black hat...he's coming in from outside and he's got to play fair like all the rest of em...terrorist or not. Get in line Einstein!
This is a very serious matter for the technical and scientific community. A lot of us travel internationally to attend technical conferences with little or no customs hassles. Now other countries will probably retaliate by requiring special visas for US citizens to attend conferences in their countries. This is going to curtail a lot of this travel for US citizens. Just another example of the US becoming more isolated and further behind than the rest of the world. Thanks a lot George Bush.
A large component of the Blackhat conference is the training sessions. In fact the name of the conference itself is Blackhat "USA 2007 Briefings & Training". It was very likely to be prominently displayed on the actual contract he showed the Immigration officer, so I don't think it would be much of a leap for an American (or Canadian) immigration officer to inquire if he was doing any training which, depending on how he answered, could make that clause apply and make him non-except.
In my humble opinion, the US is the best place in the world to live if you work in the tech industry. I am a foreigner who has lived here for many years and I am very grateful for all the opportunities this country has offered me. The majority of Americans are very nice and hospitable people. The immigration laws are completely out-of-whack though. I know that first hand because of my personal experience as an immigrant and that of my friends. For instance, a couple friend of mine moved to Canada because they could not live together here in the US. They had both been living legally here for about 6 years. She was a green card holder and he was an H1-B holder. They fell in love and decided to get married without realizing that it would be impossible for them to stay together in this country. This is the case because it takes from 5 to 7 years for the spouse of a green card holder to be admitted in the US and the spouse has to wait overseas while he is in the queue. In the meantime, getting another visa to stay in the US with his wife (e.g., F1) was almost impossible since it was now understood that he had the intention of immigrating to the US to live with his wife. Hence, they sold everything and moved north of the border. A sad state of affairs indeed. However, the system is also full of loopholes. If you hire a good lawyer, he can easily work them out for you. This is unfortunate but it is the reality we live in today.
Beckham and Posh got in without any problems. So, I don't see any problems with the system.
I think you should all go vote for my girlfriend in this contest: http://www.thegiantdream.com/Profile.php?ID=21 kinda NSFW ... bikini !
Thanks
3 times....
No, no, the "hate crimes" thing was just a misinterpretation that was spread. The key concept is "incite to violence", priests can definitely voice their malcontent about homosexuals in the church or in general, you just can't tell your parishioners to kill, beat, maim or verbally abuse homosexuals. But this is pretty much the same everywhere, you can't go walking around telling people that "Arabs are bad" and that we "should jail them all", but you're not really allowed to say that anywhere in the western world.
As to the "blank media tax", it only applies to CDs (which means that DVD+-R are actually cheaper than CD-R :), but it's also helped keep the MAFIAA at bay. P2P "services" are not really in violation of the law here (AFAIK & for now). In one landmark case, the judge basically said "You can't nail this person for stealing music, they paid the blank media tax so they're allowed to grab this music and burn it on to a CD, that's what they paid the tax for."
As to the women, hey, beautiful women are everywhere :) I would personally cast my vote for Winnipeg, which is best described as a big city (750k) with a small town mentality. Filled with lots of humble, hard-working people, the women tend to follow this trend, so they're not just beautiful, they're actually approachable ;) (guess where I met my fiancé?)
Let me get this straight: he's upset because he's been entering the country illegally for 6 years and finally got caught?
Winnipeg is a 3hr drive for me. What should I check out if I come to visit for an afternoon?
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
Before the World Wars were used as an excuse to implement totalitarian control of all human movement across imaginary boundaries, we didn't have any more espionage or terrorism than we do now.
It annoys me that the government uses my money to create borders that I do not want. Let everyone in, I say, or give the damn land back to the Indians.
The current administration of the United States has made claiming to be "fighting terrorism" their only priority.
There. A little bit closer to reality.