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Bill Would Reverse Bans On Municipal Broadband

Yuppie writes "A bill introduced to the House this week would overturn bans that currently exist in several states that forbid cities and towns building and deploying their own broadband networks. The big telecoms may not be be too happy about the bill, however: 'The telecoms have historically argued that municipalities that own and operate — or even build and lease — broadband networks could give themselves preferential treatment. The Act anticipates that argument with a section on "competition neutrality." Public providers would be banned from giving themselves any "regulatory preference," which should create a level playing field for all broadband providers. Municipalities interested in getting into the broadband business would also have to solicit feedback from the private sector on planned deployments.' The full text of the bill (pdf) is available from Rep. Boucher's website."

157 comments

  1. preferential treatment by timmarhy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "'The telecoms have historically argued that municipalities that own and operate -- or even build and lease -- broadband networks could give themselves preferential treatment"

    how the FUCK is that any different to what telecoms do NOW? i bet at&t give themselfs preferential treatment on lines they install to. what a bunch of 2 faced cockheads.

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    1. Re:preferential treatment by Divebus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, SOMEONE has to give the telecoms some competition, if nothing else to keep them from raping the public. The U.S. is already the laughingstock of the planet for how behind our telephone systems and ISPs are. It used to be the other way around - the U.S. telephone system under AT&T was the best in the world (for what it was). Now everyone else is running rings around us with bandwidth and features while the U.S. telecoms are artificially limiting what they deliver. Go Munies!

      --

      Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
    2. Re:preferential treatment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess it is that obvious. Wasn't the recent issue over google bidding billions on the new wireless spectrum auction, contingent partially on the requirement for open access of devices and mandatory wholesale pricing to other carriers/competitors? I'm presuming this is meaning non-preferential pricing. Which of course the FCC said no too...

      When I read the summary I was a little happy. Like oh yeah finally some competition (if the bill gets passed). I've worked for 3 telecoms. And not much pisses me off more than the phone company. Well, now the oil industry reaping record profits and forcing us all to Ben Dover etc. but those other politics aside, this is a biggie.

    3. Re:Preferential Treatment by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      representing the people they serve? The one that won't be profit seeking (other than providing nominal tax dollars to fund other services)? The one whose pricing, serving level, and whatnot would be controlled by the citizenry at the city council level? You must be new.

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      Deleted
    4. Re:preferential treatment by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1



      So the customer is essentially the municipality? And the proposed law essentially says they're not allowed to do things for themself at any amount of cost that is better than getting someone else to do it? Even though there would inherently be less cost as there's no profit skimming overhead? Is that right?

      I suppose it's better than the existing law if that just says you can't do anything for yourself.

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      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    5. Re:preferential treatment by Cathbard · · Score: 3, Informative

      As an ex long term telco employee I can confirm that telco's give preferential treatment to corporate "strategic partners" (collusion anybody?) that would boggle your mind. These corporate discounts could never be matched by a municipality due to the scale involved. The amount of pocket pissing that goes on would make your stomach turn but when a telce does it it is is simply called standard business practices. How is a council giving preferential treatment to their customers any different?

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      "A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist" - Sir Humphrey Appleby
    6. Re:preferential treatment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      You mean, free local calls and virtually 100% uptime? Cheaper long-distance than anywhere else in the world? A wide variety of options in Long Distance carriers, a largely unregulated market for VoIP? Most of Europe requires address confirmation for Skype-In, for instance, or doesn't even have the option.

      What exactly was better about phone service under the AT&T monopoly? It was before my time, but its reputation was for shit.

    7. Re:preferential treatment by thanatos_x · · Score: 2, Interesting

      With respect, insightful? Yes, it is true that the telecoms do give themselves preferential treatment, but such an ill-formed comment. Yes, the fact that we pay more for ten plus times less is very very sad, but this isn't digg... Vocabulary. A more elegant weapon for a more civilized time. See also capitalization.

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    8. Re:preferential treatment by Divebus · · Score: 1

      If you see any European or Asian over the age of 45 on the phone, they usually shout. We never had to do that here in the States during the AT&T era. I lived in Germany for three years during that time and traveled around Europe a bit. When I came back, it was clear our phone system was better than anything I had seen or heard in Europe. Also lived in Korea for a year during that time and had to use their phone system. It was simply horrible. Now... it's not. Most of Europe and Asia have an infrastructure much newer than the States and the service quality reflects that. For the rest, I'm talking about Internet access and how the current consumer bandwidth offerings in the States, as delivered by telcos and cable systems, is laughable when compared to many other places in the world. For cell phone service, I'd prefer to buy a phone and attach it to any carrier I want. You can mostly do that in Europe and Asia, just not here in the States. How about the cell phone as payment device? It's pervasive in many places but mostly just talked about in the States. A host of other features just never made it here.

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      Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
    9. Re:preferential treatment by bagsc · · Score: 1

      I'd rather have Teleconglomerate (TM) profit maximizing than have LocalGoverment blocking/monitoring my porn.

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    10. Re:preferential treatment by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      So theyre afraid municipalities could do to Telcos what Telcos are planning to do once net neutrality is history?

    11. Re:preferential treatment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nice. you got a +5 insightful mod for saying nothing even near insightful. And all you did was echo the same tired old groupthink. You are what is wrong with /. Idiot!

    12. Re:preferential treatment by jhylkema · · Score: 1

      The U.S. is already the laughingstock of the planet for how behind our telephone systems and ISPs are.


      The U.S. is already the laughingstock of the planet for how far it is behind everybody on everything. Health care, education, infrastructure, transit . . . you name it, the rest of the world is whizzing past the U.S.

    13. Re:preferential treatment by MLease · · Score: 1

      If that were entirely true, people wouldn't risk their lives to save others, donate to charity, etc. I would agree that most people are selfish most of the time, but not that all people are selfish all of the time.

      -Mike

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      I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
    14. Re:preferential treatment by makuabob · · Score: 1

      if nothing else to keep them from raping the public.


      Meaning,...? What? That the municipal governments AREN'T raping the public now AND they will protect us from the buggering we already get from ISPs?!

      Hah! They're just jockeying some additional 'pork.' The 'level playing field' means the local government get to 'stick it to us,' just like the ISPs do now.

      It's a jaded viewpoint, I know, but,... \0/ WTF can I do?!

  2. OMG! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I unconciously read "Bill [Gates] Would Reverse Bans ..." and now I'm a little bit scared.

    1. Re:OMG! by Divebus · · Score: 1

      Did the same thing! Ack!

      Personally, I'm in favor of our Muicipal Overlords. I don't think they'll out-deliver the telcos but they'll provide reasonable, level baseline service. Right now, we live in an equivalent world of Coca Cola delivering water to our houses (at whatever prices containing whatever stimulants which make us thirsty) and the Munies trying to provide an alternative.

      --

      Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
  3. Oh noes! by kcbanner · · Score: 1

    The telecoms are worried!? Price drops anyone?

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    1. Re:Oh noes! by Adriax · · Score: 3, Funny

      Price drops? Hell no, 10% across the board price jump to cover "losses due to unfair/unconstitutional competition" and add an extra year to contract lock-ins.

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
  4. Commie! by gowen · · Score: 5, Funny

    Goddamn activist legislators preventing ordinary Americans being price gouged by ISPs.

    Don't they know that that's SOCIALISM? And SOCIALISM is not just automatically bad, but Anti-American(TM) even when its not.

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  5. what type of "regulatory preference"? by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If an ISP decided it would be cool to allow uncapped transfer over their network (ie, no cost of switching to another ISP), would that be considered preference?

    1. Re:what type of "regulatory preference"? by Yokaze · · Score: 1

      No, the question is not so much, what they do with their net. The point is, that municipalities could provide special laws or regulations only for their provider. Say, they don't need to pay a certain fee, or only part of it, or they would be allowed to hang the wires at poles, while other companies are not. Or the municipalities services are made required to use the local provider.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    2. Re:what type of "regulatory preference"? by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      Regulatory preference of the sort the USPS enjoys over UPS, FedEx, and DHL, I imagine.

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      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    3. Re:what type of "regulatory preference"? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Informative
      Typically this kind of regulatory preference comes with certain extra demands. As I recall, he USPS is the only carrier allowed to take first class mail but they trade off for this is that they are required to provide equal cost delivery for everyone. Here in the UK, Royal Mail deliveries in rural Scotland are subsidised by the cost of stamps in England. The price of a stamp is set at close to an average delivery cost. If you used an unregulated private carrier, then they would charge you more for sending something from London to Scotland than to another part of London.

      The rationale behind this kind of regulation is that communication is vital economic infrastructure, and the flat rate fees make the country as a whole more competitive. When the post office was in charge of telecommunications, they were required to connect a certain percentage of the population each year. A private telecoms company could have just gone after the ones that gave the biggest ROI. This is happening now; you have a lot more options for broadband in Central London, where the population is densest, than in many other areas.

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    4. Re:what type of "regulatory preference"? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      That's confusing basically your saying if a munie has a network, that they can't regulate it in the manner that is typical if they don't such as
      a municipality has a broad-band network, they must not have an exclusivity clause barring competeing providers; but if the Munie doesn't provide broadband an exclusivity clause is industry standard.

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  6. Sounds like... by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

    The Telecoms want net neutrality to only apply to them.

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  7. Not just big telecoms by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The big telecoms may not be be too happy about the bill, however

    I really have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, it'd be nice to actually get something cool like this for my tax dollars. On the other, I definitely don't want to see my city out-compete our wonderful local ISPs. If/when they became the only game in down, what's their incentive to maintain the networks? Will Joe Cityadmin give a rat's butt if I call to complain about an outage? And above all else, do I really want the government (even the friendly local variety) being my gateway to the Internet? I have nightmares of hearing a prosecuting attorney saying something like "our city access records indicate you posted anti-government statements to a communist website called Dotslash." Maybe that's unlikely, but tell me honestly you can't hear a mayor explaining how his city's network will be "a safe place for our children to play thanks to our new monitoring and filtering system" to thunderous applause. If there's a vibrant ecosystem of private competition in an area, great. If not...

    Help me out here. Do I root for the cities to undercut big telco (whom I customarily hate on general principles), or for private enterprise to win out over the government's desire to protect me from myself?

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:Not just big telecoms by hax0r_this · · Score: 1

      The economically sound solution is for government to subsidize companies that meet certain standards. Good internet serves the common good, so correct the positive externality. Or something like that, its been a while since I took econ.

    2. Re:Not just big telecoms by gowen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      what's their incentive to maintain the networks?
      The same thing that's their incentive to maintain all the other things local government provides: did the municiapal fire department become lazy because they've driven the private fire brigades of the 19th century out of business? Contrary to what they seem to teach in US schools, the profit motive is not the sole force for good in the known universe.
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    3. Re:Not just big telecoms by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      The same thing that's their incentive to maintain all the other things local government provides

      The desire to grow the tax base?

      God help us all.

      Fire departments, police, and roads aren't inherently competitive activities. There are some things that make a lot of sense to roll under the government roof. Telecom is extremely competitive, though, and I think that's good for us.

      Let me illustrate another facet: my local government is currently trying to force us to approve a bond issue to pay for a new water park that no one really seems to want. They're doing this by deliberately allowing the municipal swimming pools to deteriorate until we give in and approve it. Furthermore, they're flat-out lying about how much it would cost to repair those three pools (quoting $5 million for three 25m pools, all currently open and in use). I am 100% positive I could have someone to build a brand new 25m pool in my currently pool-less back yard for less than $1.67 million.

      Now, I have absolutely no faith in their ability not to turn a city-owned broadband system into a total debacle. Sure, we have good fire department. Yes, our policemen are great. Our roads are even reasonably decent. But when it comes to building out and managing quality-of-life infrastructure, our local government sucks badly. That seems to be mostly true in the places I've lived.

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      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:Not just big telecoms by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      If/when they became the only game in down, what's their incentive to maintain the networks?

      If/when they became the only garbage collector in town, what's their incentive to maintain the waste disposal trucks?
      If/when they became the only road repairer in town, what's their incentive to maintain roads?
      If/when they became the only etc, etc,etc...

      --
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    5. Re:Not just big telecoms by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The same thing that's their incentive to maintain all the other things local government provides: did the municiapal fire department become lazy because they've driven the private fire brigades of the 19th century out of business? Contrary to what they seem to teach in US schools, the profit motive is not the sole force for good in the known universe.

      Absolutely. I really get tired of the unquestioned assumption that businesses will be more responsive to their customers than governments will to their citizens. The fact of the matter is, once a business gets over a certain size -- and the big telcos definitely fit into this category -- they don't give a shit what Joe Consumer thinks, because they don't have to. They're omnipresent, and if one or ten or a thousand customers get tired of their lousy service, tough; they'll never notice the losses, and the customers either have no choice (as is usually the case with telcos, of course) or the "choice" of dealing with some other megacorporation that's just as bad (as is the case with cell phone companies.) Personally, I'd expect a lot better service from a city-owned ISP than from some Not-So-Baby-Bell that's headquartered halfway across the country and has most of its employees halfway around the world, and makes more money in a week than my city council spends in a year.

      --
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    6. Re:Not just big telecoms by David+Hume · · Score: 1

      what's their incentive to maintain the networks?

      The same thing that's their incentive to maintain all the other things local government provides: did the municiapal fire department become lazy because they've driven the private fire brigades of the 19th century out of business? Contrary to what they seem to teach in US schools, the profit motive is not the sole force for good in the known universe.
      Yes, like they've done such a good job maintaining bridges. It is not like they have anything more important to do.
    7. Re:Not just big telecoms by pavon · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm not a fan of the municipal broadband for the reasons that you stated. From what I've seen monopolies pretty much always such whether it is a corporate or government monopoly. Having the government provide subsidized service is the quickest way I know to kill competition and consoledate broadband providers even more than they already are.

      So if my city was proposing something along those lines I would definitely be against it. At the same time, if a community does decide to provide broadband then that is their prerogative to do so. Hell, if they want to go so far as to try and create a perfect little socialistic community, they are welcome to try. I won't live there. The fact that the federal government is stepping in to "defend" these telcoms against the big bad local governments, is absolutely ridiculous, even if the bill isn't completely onesided.

      This is purely regional matter that has nothing to do with fundamental human rights, just different ideas about the best way to manage local infrastructure, and the feds should keep their noses out it.

    8. Re:Not just big telecoms by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic or not. It sounds like you think that the government should simply regulate ISPs. I've never taken any econ. classes, but all you have to do is look around to see that government regulating private industry gives you the worst of both worlds (government providing something as a public service vs. taking a hands off approach and letting the market work itself out). For example, right now most cities provide your sewer/garbage collection as a social service, and the fees are usually pretty reasonable because they are determined by elected officials. On the other hand, they leave retail services up to the private sector, which also results in pretty reasonable costs because of competition. But when the government heavily regulates a privately owned industry, each side can blame the other as prices go up and service degrades. It's a perfect symbiotic relationship where the politicians stay in office and the tycoons keep making money.

      The problem with socialism vs. capitalism is that compromise seldom works. You have to decide which things are best left to government to provide, and which things are best left to the private sector.

      As far as internet goes, I think it's too early to decide. Let's let those cities that want to, provide it as a public service, and those cities that don't, leave it up to private industry. After a few years we should start to see which works better.

    9. Re:Not just big telecoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In order to allow competition, municipal broadband should only be allowed in the form of local infrastructure projects, without Internet service. Anyone who wants to provide Internet service should get equal access to the local infrastructure. This way the barrier to entry is lowered so that even small local ISPs can offer service to the whole area, and no service provider can hold the last mile hostage. Infrastructure reliability is much more easily evaluated than service quality. This setup would also free the municipality from dealing with customer service requests, a thing that they're notoriously bad at.

    10. Re:Not just big telecoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's quite simple actually: Whenever there is a practically undividable resource, regulation is necessary if the government doesn't manage the resource completely. You can't have three competing roads from A to B and you can't allow one private entity to freely exploit a monopoly on getting from A to B. The situation is similar with last mile network access. Multiple competing metropolitan and wide area networks are economically feasible, but the free market tends to leave people with only one choice for last mile access (or two by companies which are not in the same primary market). Regulating equal access to the last mile has proved quite successful in the EU, which started out with government owned telcos.

    11. Re:Not just big telecoms by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Although it's true that government can be quite lazy at times, we do have the advantage of living in a slightly democratic society, where local officials can be held accountable for how the government operates under their control.

      Private monopolistic utilities are often much harder to control, and at the very worst are criminally negligent. Con Edison in New York City is commonly cited as being an example of this, where they profit greatly, yet return almost no money back to their crumbling infrastructure. The giant steam explosion from a few weeks ago and the massive Queens blackout last summer support this theory. In both incidents, they more or less got off the hook completely for it.

      I should note that the 2004 election doesn't particularly support my theory of a functioning democracy in America, nor does the fact that Bush's approval rating is still in the double-digits.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    12. Re:Not just big telecoms by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      "I really get tired of the unquestioned assumption that businesses will be more responsive to their customers than governments will to their citizens"

      So I take it you've never dealt with the IRS, DMV, EPA, or most other government agencies that people have deal with on a regular basis. Even ATT is more customer oriented, and it's just about the worst the private sector has to offer.

      "Personally, I'd expect a lot better service from a city-owned ISP than from some Not-So-Baby-Bell that's headquartered halfway across the country and has most of its employees halfway around the world, and makes more money in a week than my city council spends in a year."

      Well, that's probably because you don't have a lot of experience dealing with underfunded, understaffed, municipal services.

    13. Re:Not just big telecoms by Grim+Beefer · · Score: 1

      You're of course forgetting that ISPs, especially local ones, are already pressured to bow to governmental wishes. All broadband networks must give access to the NSA, if so requested. This includes web logs, e-mail transcripts, and general wiretapping privileges. You're also forgetting that a major reason a city municipality would want to institute their own broadband network is to remedy the woeful service being provided by unaccountable private ISPs, not necessarily just to undercut their prices. The article mentions three cities in particular, New Orleans, Seattle, and Philadelphia, where major ISPs refuse to lay more fiber, but also refuse to allow the cities to do such things themselves. This also comes after the fact that the infrastructure of the internet, like roads, phone lines, and railroad tracks before it, is heavily or entirely subsidized by the government in the first place. If you have no one else to turn to, what would you do if you're dissatisfied with your service? Personally, I'd be far more concerned about a private teleco becoming the only game in town as opposed to our government. A government agency is only going to allow as much intrusion into privacy as we, the people of a democratic nation, allow it to. It's just as foreseeable, given your example of a filtering service, to see federal law banning just such a policy. It all really depends on what we do.

    14. Re:Not just big telecoms by vertinox · · Score: 1

      Help me out here. Do I root for the cities to undercut big telco (whom I customarily hate on general principles), or for private enterprise to win out over the government's desire to protect me from myself?

      Personally, the Ron Paul supporter in me says that the Federal government should have no authority to tell the ISP, state, or local governments what they can or cannot do.

      If the local governments wish to have their own municipal ISP then I can justify that because there is nothing in federal constitution that would prohibit such behavior. It would be up to the locals to decide if they wanted the issue passed under their own municipal legislation.

      (On a side note, this is why the Federal Government needs to give more power to state and local governments simply because a single private citizen is more likely to get a law or issue passed in his/her local or state government than it is in the Federal government which in turns gives more power to the individual rather than say people with lots of money and lobbyists)

      At the same time, I don't believe the ISPs should be forced to do business in that town if they don't want to.

      So yes... You can be a libertarian and still support municipal ISPs.

      --
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      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    15. Re:Not just big telecoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same thing that's their incentive to maintain all the other things local government provides

      What you list are what we pay the government for: protection from each other and from disasters.

      Providing wifi service so people can surf at coffee shops isn't one of the things that a local government should be providing, they should concentrate on police, homelessness, and roads.

      What criteria is used to decide that the local government should get involved in becoming an ISP? Why shouldn't they also get involved in making coffee? There's a lot of people that need coffee in the morning.

      Also I'm waiting to find out what happens the first time someone downloads child porn while on a city wifi. They'll have to install a proxy server to catch these predators. Oh wait that means they also have a record of what everyone's surfing for. How long till that is leaked?

    16. Re:Not just big telecoms by Sunburnt · · Score: 1

      So I take it you've never dealt with the IRS, DMV, EPA, or most other government agencies that people have deal with on a regular basis.

      I have dealt with the first two plus the USDA, and while their policies may be completely bonkers, I have never received rude or condescending service, and have been able to receive meaningful follow-through with my concerns. Cingular... er... AT&T, on the other hand, has been pretty consistently awful.

      Even ATT is more customer oriented, and it's just about the worst the private sector has to offer.

      "Just about?" I can think of five national companies in five seconds who have been considerably more painful to deal with, in my experience: Wachovia, Bank of America, Countrywide Home Lending, Home Depot, and Circuit City.

      I'm still shocked that you could fit "AT&T" into the same sentence as "customer oriented."

      Well, that's probably because you don't have a lot of experience dealing with underfunded, understaffed, municipal services.

      Perhaps this person is not unfortunate enough to live in areas with undersupported municipal services. In my experience, towns that suffer this problem are getting exactly what they ask for (generally not including towns that are just too poor to support anything.) People invite bad local government in two ways (at least): They can try to get it on the cheap, or they can pay a lot of money without having the will or interest to hold politicians accountable.

      Everyone grumbles about their local government, but there are definitely instances of good local government. The difference I've observed in areas with good governance is the accompaniment of this grumbling with specific, informed demands of accountability, rather than general invectives against "those bastards" from folks who often can't name any of their city council members.

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    17. Re:Not just big telecoms by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      If the local governments wish to have their own municipal ISP then I can justify that because there is nothing in federal constitution that would prohibit such behavior.

      I totally agree with that. If this were a new federal project, I'd be pretty well apoplectic by now. I'm OK with cities deciding for themselves; if a particular region wants to be entirely free enterprise and another wants fully-funded government services, that's their right.

      So yes... You can be a libertarian and still support municipal ISPs.

      Here's the problem: I fully support your municipal ISP, assuming you want one. I'm not sure that I'd support having my own municipal ISP, though, and I haven't heard enough about the track records of such projects to know how they tend to work out.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    18. Re:Not just big telecoms by tronbradia · · Score: 1

      The nice thing about municipalities though, is unlike things done by the federal government, or to a lesser extent the state government, it's real easy to vote with your feet. Municipalities have to compete with each other. If you don't like the way Seattle runs things, it's real easy to move to Bellevue (will be especially once they build the stupid train across Lake Washington so you wouldn't have to slog across the 520 everyday). But if the state has a policy you don't like, you'd have to probably get a transfer or a new job to get away, and if the US government did something you didn't like, you'd have to file your Canadian immigration papers and start waiting. My point is only, that municipalities are more like private companies. They have to compete. They know this, and that's why the City of Tacoma has advertisements up in Seatac airport.

    19. Re:Not just big telecoms by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      Personally, the Ron Paul supporter in me says that the Federal government should have no authority to tell the ISP, state, or local governments what they can or cannot do.


      Should the federal government have the authority to tell state or local governments that they can't discriminate against blacks? That they must perform a trial by jury? etc...

    20. Re:Not just big telecoms by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      And above all else, do I really want the government (even the friendly local variety) being my gateway to the Internet? I have nightmares of hearing a prosecuting attorney saying something like "our city access records indicate you posted anti-government statements to a communist website called Dotslash." Maybe that's unlikely, but tell me honestly you can't hear a mayor explaining how his city's network will be "a safe place for our children to play thanks to our new monitoring and filtering system" to thunderous applause.


      You're forgetting something: the only reason any private ISP can exist at all is because of a government-granted right of way to run cable wherever they need to, across public and private property.

      If the government passes some law or prosecutes someone to suppress speech (as it has before), a private ISP won't be immune to that... unless it has an army to defend itself with.
    21. Re:Not just big telecoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are perfectly describing the "race to the bottom". When businesses shop around for a good place to create jobs they have an unfair advantage in negotiations with state or municipal governments in pressuring them to pass laws such as the no municipal broadband law which may not be in their best interest.

    22. Re:Not just big telecoms by wakingrufus · · Score: 1

      I have no doubt that this would happen in my city. They tried to put fingerprint logins for public library computer access to "catch people who use them to find porn".

    23. Re:Not just big telecoms by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting something: the only reason any private ISP can exist at all is because of a government-granted right of way to run cable wherever they need to, across public and private property.

      For the record, there are still ISPs that don't own their own last mile. Since my DSL runs over Qwest's copper, and Qwest is unlikely to passively allow anyone to tell them they can't run copper to my door, I'm not terribly worried about that.

      If the government passes some law or prosecutes someone to suppress speech (as it has before), a private ISP won't be immune to that... unless it has an army to defend itself with.

      The difference is the legal route should the city decide to enforce filtering:

      1. Private ISP: No. Until a judge says we have to comply (and good luck with that), we're not going to.
      2. City-owned ISP: OK. Until a judge says we can't comply (and good luck with that), we're going to.

      There's a lot to be said for separation of powers.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    24. Re:Not just big telecoms by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      What criteria is used to decide that the local government should get involved in becoming an ISP? Why shouldn't they also get involved in making coffee? There's a lot of people that need coffee in the morning.

      Government should be involved in everything that is a natural monopoly, either by regulating it so that it has artifically induced competition (my preferred solution), or by doing it outright. The notion that everything is better if privatized and unregulated is absolutely silly, because the worst places in the world are places with exactly that situation (parts of africa, areas with civil war, ...). It's economy 101: if something is easily monopolized, it will be, and private monopolies are ALWAYS bad for the customer.

    25. Re:Not just big telecoms by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      So I take it you've never dealt with the IRS, DMV, EPA, or most other government agencies that people have deal with on a regular basis.... Well, that's probably because you don't have a lot of experience dealing with underfunded, understaffed, municipal services. I like how you disingenuously list huge federal/state bureaucracies which have the same size/distance problems the OP cited for large telecom megacorps in a discussion about municipal government. I live in Los Angles, which has as disgustingly bloated and stupid a city government as you'll find anywhere, and still they run rings around Veterans Affairs, Social Security, and the IRS. Even with the city department of Building and Safety, which has a terrible reputation for sloth and ineptitude, I've been able to resolve issues in a timely manner because the people involved are here, where I can badger them at my convenience. Ever try badgering the VA? It doesn't work at all. If you're lucky, you can get the attention of your congressperson, and they might be able to get your issue addressed, but don't count on it.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    26. Re:Not just big telecoms by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      Yes, like they've done such a good job maintaining bridges. It is not like they have anything more important to do. Bridge inspection, repair, and maintenance is handled by the state and federal governments, fucktard.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    27. Re:Not just big telecoms by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      If/when they became the only game in down, what's their incentive to maintain the networks? I work as a locksmith for the second largest school district in the country. For lock repairs and installations, we are the "only game in town" for 1200+ schools. We do a good job because we are skilled professionals who take pride in doing our jobs well. For every story you hear about a lazy government worker who shirks his duties, there are a hundred other workers who are conscientious and diligent because that's how decent people do their jobs.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    28. Re:Not just big telecoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government should be involved in everything that is a natural monopoly

      Who decides what a natural monopoly is? The mayor whose brother is running a struggling scrap recycling plant?

    29. Re:Not just big telecoms by vertinox · · Score: 1
      Should the federal government have the authority to tell state or local governments that they can't discriminate against blacks? That they must perform a trial by jury? etc...

      Yes because it is in the constitution:

      XIV Amendment

      Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    30. Re:Not just big telecoms by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      Well you just said the federal government should have no authority to tell locals what they can and cannot do.

    31. Re:Not just big telecoms by Alascom · · Score: 1

      Municipalities running an ISP is a very BAD idea.

      In 1994-1997 I ran an ISP in Anchorage Alaska. ATU (Alaska Telephone Utility) provided local telephone loop service. Whenever I needed to add new phone lines, ATU was on the spot and had the lines run within a week or two. Everything was booming with my business until the city council decided to let ATU provide dial-up service. Within a few months I was suddenly unable to get new phone lines for my ISP. ATU claimed I had too many lines already. Clearly anti-competitive, but even when myself and a few other local ISPs complained to the City council they refused to help.

      Private sector isn't great, but its much easier to compete with a business than to compete with the Government.

    32. Re:Not just big telecoms by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

      The way it works on my local city-owned fiber network the city just provides the pipe (or tube, or truck). I have the option of choosing between several competing ISPs for data service on the network. The ISP handles my transport to and from the internet, the city-owned network only handles the transport between my ISP and me. I can choose different providers for data, phone and TV or I can get all 3 services from 1 provider or I can just get 1 service (or zero). The city is just providing the road, FedEx, UPS and DHL are still free to compete for my business.

      --

      Enigma

    33. Re:Not just big telecoms by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So I take it you've never dealt with the IRS, DMV, EPA, or most other government agencies that people have deal with on a regular basis.

      No, I deal with them all the time, like everybody else. Well, okay, not the EPA, since I'm not really involved in anything that falls under their jurisdiction -- unless you count separating my garbage for recycling, which, BTW, where I live (Minneapolis) is a service provided by the city, and functions quite smoothly. We have three garbage cans instead of one; we separate garbage into paper, plastic and glass and metal, and "everything else"; the city takes care of the rest. Easy, smooth, and painless, unlike everywhere else I ever lived, where if you wanted to bother recycling, you had to drive stuff to the (private) recycling center yourself, no doubt doing more harm than good overall.

      Even ATT is more customer oriented, and it's just about the worst the private sector has to offer.

      In my experience, AT&T is actually better than the other Baby Bells, or Comcast or Time Warner for cable. OTOH, the last time I dealt with them, (a) it was actually AT&T, not the rebranded SBC, and (b) it was only for long distance, not local service. So I can't say what they're like now. My guess is, they suck just as much as Qwest, which is kind of my point: they all suck. They suck, in fact, just as much as any giant government agency you care to name. And they suck worse than city agencies, which at least can function on a human scale.

      Big Anything sucks. Big Business, Big Government, Big Religion -- they all suck. They all have the same pathologies. What the "Anything" is usually matters less than the "Big" part.

      I'm a big fan of local ISP's, as they were in the days of dial-up; generally I think they don't suck at all. But the fact of the matter is, with broadband, almost without exception, you have to pay a giant telecom for access. Given the choice between local ISP's competing freely, and municipal broadband, I'd choose the former. But that's not the choice most people get. It's not city vs. local business, it's city vs. big business. And again, in that case, the former makes more sense. If you can come up with an idea for a regulatory scheme that would make it possible for local ISP's to offer broadband access without dealing with the big telecoms, I'd be interested to hear it ... and then good luck getting it past AT&T's and Qwest's and Comcast's lobbyists.

      Well, that's probably because you don't have a lot of experience dealing with underfunded, understaffed, municipal services.

      I used to work for one: Denver Health Medical Center, nee Denver General Hospital, aka "The Knife and Gun Club." Were we perpetually underfunded and understaffed? Yes. Did we manage to be one of the top trauma and emergency medicine hospitals in the nation? Also yes. If you're shot, get in a car crash, or have a heart attack anywhere in the Denver metro area, you're better off at DHMC than any private hospital; and for less dramatic stuff, you're at least as well off. Same thing here in Minneapolis -- when the (city) paramedics and firefighters were pulling people off the I-35W bridge, they didn't take them to private hospitals, they took them to Hennepin County MC. There's a reason for that.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    34. Re:Not just big telecoms by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The cities should own the local wires and act as a common carrier. This shouldn't be any less reasonable than their owning the local streets & roads...and the access restrictions should be similar.

      The significance of this is that communications companies would only need to connect to the city at one location to be accessible (salable) to everyone in the city. This would promote competition. City services should only be local...but should be available. Broadcasts of the local council meetings, etc. Candidates for local elections making presentations, and taking questions and answers. Etc. Think of it as a very fancy web site (which is what it would be) that was at a non-routeable address (because the city would choose not to route it). Ideally this should be their own TCP number, or perhaps one that they share with a group of other cities, each of which used it for local business.

      The competition would be between the ISPs, which would have easy access to a large customer pool and NOT ownership or control over the lines. I suppose that the city could act as an ISP, but I doubt that this would be either necessary or cost effective. What it would be doing is providing fast access as a common carrier.

      P.S.: I'm not sure that this is what the bill is talking about, but it's what it SHOULD be talking about.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    35. Re:Not just big telecoms by PPH · · Score: 1

      If/when they became the only game in down, what's their incentive to maintain the networks? Will Joe Cityadmin give a rat's butt if I call to complain about an outage?

      Re-election.


      And above all else, do I really want the government (even the friendly local variety) being my gateway to the Internet? I have nightmares of hearing a prosecuting attorney saying something like "our city access records indicate you posted anti-government statements to a communist website called Dotslash."

      In my experience, one local gov't. entity, the public library, has led the fight for our rights to privacy. I'll trust them to a greater degree than AT&T, who happily hands access to their lines over to the feds (or anyone else with a checkbook). I'm not worried.
      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    36. Re:Not just big telecoms by vertinox · · Score: 1

      Well you just said the federal government should have no authority to tell locals what they can and cannot do.

      Sorry. I should have added "In regards to the article and the issue it was discussing." which only includes municipal broadband.

      Everything else still applies to its own little corner of legality.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    37. Re:Not just big telecoms by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      Credit where it's due: the IRS reps I've dealt with (as a small business owner with the occasional accounting glitch) actually have been courteous, professional, and helpful.

      You can certainly complain about the agency's policies, and loathe the beast it's designed to feed, but the IRS's "customer service" is much better than most people have been led to expect.

    38. Re:Not just big telecoms by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Those situations arise because the public safety departments remember that they are public servants, and the quality of life departments think they are government servants.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  8. Not really a problem by drsquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As long as it's not paid for by the tax-payer I don't see the problem. Otherwise it's just a waste.

    1. Re:Not really a problem by medeii · · Score: 1

      How exactly do you expect a municipal Internet service to be paid for, if not with taxes? Or are you one of those people who expects governments to deliver services paid for by fairy dust and wishes?

      --
      got standards? --- http://www.w3.org/
    2. Re:Not really a problem by argiedot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I suppose he means that while the municipality does own and run the service, it charges for it and the charges go to keeping it maintained.

    3. Re:Not really a problem by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It would require an initial investment, which would have to come either from taxes, or from a private finance initiative. A compromise might be a good idea; allow local businesses and residence associations to fund some of the development in exchange for being in the first connected areas.

      Then there's the matter of running costs. This could be done by selling advertising space, although I'm not a huge fan of the concept. It could also be done by offering a premium service. There are a few options for this. The free service could be bandwidth-limited, and people who wanted more could pay for it (either with a subscription, or on a one-off basis). Alternatively, it could be free for non-commercial use, and companies could pay a fee to use it.

      If the aim is widely deployed broadband, it seems that a better solution would be making it illegal to ban reselling of bandwidth bought from an ISP. That would allow anyone to run an access point for general use. Then all you need is a WAP that routes all traffic from unknown hosts directly to the Internet. A city could sell these cheaply (buy a load, sell them at close to wholesale) and have decent coverage up quickly.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Not really a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what's wrong with it being paid with tax dollars? we pay for roads, the post office, public schools, public parks, libraries, court system, police stations, fire stations, etc. all with our tax dollars. or do you just want the benefits of these shared public services without helping to shoulder the costs.

    5. Re:Not really a problem by dmclap · · Score: 1

      How exactly do you expect a municipal Internet service to be paid for, if not with taxes? Or are you one of those people who expects governments to deliver services paid for by fairy dust and wishes?

      This, to me, represents the biggest problem with municipal broadband. As it stands, private corporations that want to set up broadband have to get investment in order to set up their networks, and then recoup that investment from paying customers. However, the government can just take money from the taxpayers and then undercut any other services, since they don't have to pay us back. This can quickly lead to a government monopoly which, while it has its advantages, can have severe disadvantages. Some good ones that others have pointed out include them being ill-responsive to service requests, having no incentive to upgrade their network, and possibly using it as a political tool, such as imposing "child safe" filters on the municipal network. While I kind of trust local governments to do the right thing effectively (they tend to do things like garbage pickup pretty effectively), it's still a big risk. I think if the municipal governments weren't allowed to use tax dollars, and instead had to attract private investors (at least, not without a referendum allowing them to use tax dollars), then it could work out well. They could also use bonds, which could be redeemed for their cash value, or perhaps some upgrade or improved service.
  9. Bans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't believe such a ban exists in the first place! This is exactly the kind of crap that is helping the telcos. and the cable companies hold broadband hostage in the U.S. It's no wonder why we've fallen so far behind.

  10. Preferential Treatment by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

    Wait, you mean municipal broadband will give preferential treatment for its own service? The one run by an elected entity, representing the people they serve? The one that won't be profit seeking (other than providing nominal tax dollars to fund other services)? The one whose pricing, serving level, and whatnot would be controlled by the citizenry at the city council level? HOLY COW BATMAN!

    I don't see a SIGN UP button on the article, damn...

  11. Heaven Forbid.. by sieb · · Score: 3, Interesting

    municipalities get fed up at the empty promises the Telco's give them about getting them wired, and how they can't make money if the municipality does it themselves.. Given how the Telco's already squandered the millions of dollars that were supposed to be used for upgrading broadband, I would be in favor of locking out Telco's all together. Like hell I am going to pay for my city to upgrade its broadband only to hand it over to a corporation to get neutered, all the while they [the telco] will complain that "this setup sucks, if you had let us install it as we promised, it would have been better!"

    1. Re:Heaven Forbid.. by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      If your local government entered into a contract with your local telecom to develop services like higher-speed broadband for your citizens, with tax dollars, and your telecom failed to do that, surely the contract had penalties spelled out for that eventuality? If those penalties were insufficient or nonexistent, that's your community's fault.

      Something else to consider is developing municipal broadband infrastructure with tax dollars, but contracting out the maintenance and management of that to a telecom. That way they're not really "in competition" and the contract could be equally profitable for both sides.

      You could even hire the local telecom to do the actual build-out, with the understanding that it would be owned by the municipality. If the telecom can't get favorable terms, they don't have to enter into the contract to do the work.

      If you're worried that the telecom is going to do shitty work or sabotage the system, there are things like "inspections" and "licenses" that work well in other industries. Have an independent party verify that things were built properly, have network plans be approved by the municipality before they're implemented, etc.

      I say let municipalities and states alike have the flexibility to do whatever it is that they want in this regard. The federal government has no business sticking its nose here. If a state wants to enter into some sort of agreement with a telecom headquartered there, and that agreement means that municipalities shouldn't be allowed to do their own thing, but in return, the state gets discounted broadband, universal coverage, and more jobs, that might be a perfectly reasonable thing for that state to do. If its citizens don't like it, they need to make themselves heard. But even so, it might actually be a good agreement for the state. You don't know that. We need to try to look past our anti-telecom bias here and not automatically assume that everything they do is evil.

      Usually people on Slashdot are all about democracy, but they fail to realize that a strong federal government, from the state's perspective, is the anti-democracy. It's overriding what are effectively the desires of a sovereign state. If there was a valid reason for this ban on bans to be applied at the federal level, that might be OK, but just because you can justify the law under the Commerce Clause doesn't mean it's the right thing to do at the federal level.

    2. Re:Heaven Forbid.. by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      If your local government entered into a contract with your local telecom to develop services like higher-speed broadband for your citizens, with tax dollars, and your telecom failed to do that, surely the contract had penalties spelled out for that eventuality? If those penalties were insufficient or nonexistent, that's your community's fault.

      Federal Government. The Federal Government gave the telcos tax breaks which have totaled more than 2B/year because they claimed they would have it built out w/ everyone on 4M+ connections by 2005. Since it was legislation bought by telcos, of course it didn't have any penalties associated with it.

      I say let municipalities and states alike have the flexibility to do whatever it is that they want in this regard. The federal government has no business sticking its nose here.

      The problem is that while it would work in theory, negotiating contracts with every individual municipality will kill any buildout simply through delay. To wire my town, the utility actually would have had to negotiate with 3 seperate municipalities because the population centers are not contiguous. There is the center of town (the municipality), then there is the north & south ends which are actually closer to the population centers of 2 other towns(2 other municipalities). Surrounding the center of town, there is about a mile or so of low population land before you get to the higher populated north & south ends. Given that both ends are bedroom communities w/ expensive houses, the telco really wanted to wire them. What they absolutely do not want to do is wire that wasted mile between the center & the end.

      I think some federal minimum standard of buildout might not be bad, as long as it leaves room for the municipalities to achieve their goals by accepting some sort of compromise. IE - a utility must provide it's highest end production service to a minimum of 40% of residences in a municipality within 5 years of offering it commercially. The municipalities can then offer a tax break or other incentive to up that %. It also has to be a realistic minimum. Currently the FCC classes a zip code as having broadband if even 1 house can get non-satallite broadband. That means a telco can wire 1 development & claim it's met it's goal of 'wiring' that zipcode.

    3. Re:Heaven Forbid.. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you didn't notice the promises that the telcos made to congress a few years back. In exchange for a tax cut and some other benefits they promissed to wire the entire country with broadband. Now they're pretending that they never made the promise, while keeping the tax cut. (Actually, I'm not keeping track. I think what they may have done is passed the tax on to the customers, when it was supposed to be a tax on them, and they needed permission to raise the prices. So officially they didn't raise the prices, but they acted as a government tax collector instead. Still, they *DID* promise.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    4. Re:Heaven Forbid.. by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      And that may be a perfectly valid thing to be upset about. But if no penalties were prescribed in the law, that was a kind of stupid thing for the government to do, yes? If you were going to sell someone your house, would you just give it to them and assume they'd pay you, or would you make payment a condition of the sale?

      If a business has to pay some new tax that wasn't there before, that's a cost of doing business. Somehow, that cost is going to be passed onto the consumer. Usually you have to raise prices, or drop out of the market if you can't be competitive. Here, they got permission to make it its own separate line item. You'll pay for it one way or the other, but by making it a separate fee, they don't have to *appear* to raise their prices and can just be done with the whole mess.

    5. Re:Heaven Forbid.. by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      If your local government ...

      Federal Government.

      Except we're talking about bans on municipal broadband. These aren't federal bans, they're state (and maybe county?). These governments probably wouldn't ban municipal broadband unless they felt it would be bad for their community, or if the telco agreed to do something for the community in exchange for the ban.

      I say let municipalities and states alike have the flexibility to do whatever it is that they want in this regard. The federal government has no business sticking its nose here.

      The problem is that while it would work in theory, negotiating contracts with every individual municipality will kill any buildout simply through delay.

      This is certainly a good and interesting point, but it seems somewhat orthogonal to my post. You seem to be going beyond simply prohibiting bans on municipal broadband, and are advocating for something more.

      While some federal "standards" on broadband roll-outs would help to push broadband into areas it doesn't exist yet, there are some monumental obstacles that you'd require telcos to overcome here. Your suggestion that 40% of households have the highest tier of service within 5 years of a commercial offering might actually make it impossible for any but the incumbent provider to offer service. Shouldn't we be pushing for more competition here rather than setting high barriers to new deployments? But really, my point here is that every market is going to be different. Every community is going to be different. One Federal Standard might be completely inappropriate for a certain state or county. Why not let that state or county decide the best approach for its own citizens? If one state/county wants to ban municipal broadband, but a neighbor doesn't, it should become pretty clear pretty quickly which approach yields the best service and price for the customers.

      By all means, the federal government should be there to make things easier to do across state lines. But that should never mean that the federal government should just trump existing, properly enacted, properly negotiated state law without a damn good reason. Those states and municipalities have reasons for the laws they enact, and even if you don't agree with them, it's a bit arrogant to tell them they're all wrong and they should be running their affairs differently. Maybe their legislators are all corrupt and in the pockets of the telecoms, I don't know, but even if that's the case, that's their problem to deal with, not the federal government's.

    6. Re:Heaven Forbid.. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      you are wrong, you said the Telco's already squandered the millions of dollars that were supposed to be used for upgrading broadband, instead of the Telco's already squandered the BILLIONS of dollars that were supposed to be used for upgrading broadband,

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  12. What's the difference? by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    how the FUCK is that any different to what telecoms do NOW? The difference is that you have the choice not to pay for the service.
    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:What's the difference? by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Well, if you don't vote for your city's government, you are paying for far more expensive projects that you didn't choose to support. As for WiFi, the tax is likely to be dramatically less than at least $60/month that Comcast charges for Internet access.

    2. Re:What's the difference? by node+3 · · Score: 1

      The difference is that you have the choice not to pay for the service. You are not required to live in an area covered by municipal WiFi.
    3. Re:What's the difference? by timmarhy · · Score: 1

      that depends on how they run it - there's plenty of government services out there that taxes dont' pay for and the consumer pays for directly.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    4. Re:What's the difference? by Wordsmith · · Score: 1

      Taxed too high by your state? You are not required to live in that state. Don't like the Bush administration's policies You are not required to live in America.

      That's a weak argument. The government is the sovereign power, and as such must use its power responsibly. If a policy's bad, telling people they don't have to live in an area run by that government isn't a particularly practical solution; the onus is on the government to do a good job, not on the governed to shop around jurisdictions.

    5. Re:What's the difference? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

      The difference is that you have the choice not to pay for the service. If you do any kind of business in your city, you're paying for broadband.
      So your choices are:
      1. Pay for broadband
      2. Move to a self sufficient hippy commune in Wyoming
      3. Die

      Faced with only the last two, I think I'd pick #3.
    6. Re:What's the difference? by node+3 · · Score: 1

      If a policy's bad, telling people they don't have to live in an area run by that government isn't a particularly practical solution That's not in question. What I'm objecting to is the blanket statement about taxes in general, which is what Colin Smith (the OP) was getting at.

      He didn't seem to think municipal WiFi is bad, but that being forced to pay for it (taxes) is, regardless of the quality or merits of the project.

      Whenever a corporation does something evil (to their customer, or to their employees) the standard libertarian response is, "no one's forcing you to (shop|work) there," so this should be an argument they'd understand.
    7. Re:What's the difference? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I'm one of those real liberals that they are now calling a paleo-con's I'm telling you that Your basic premise is wrong; the government is not sovereign, the people are sovereign in the United States, the government hasn't been sovereign since we told King George to eat shit and bark at the moon. If your a politician you had better remember that your a public servant, my servant and if you don't, my new hobby will be making your life as miserable as possible until your no longer my servant.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    8. Re:What's the difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ah yes! Always turning into an asshole whenever someone disagrees with you.

  13. Correct me if I'm wrong... by Elyscape · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, if I understand this properly, the telecoms don't want municipalities to give themselves "preferential treatment". That makes sense.

    Wait a second. Are these the same telecoms that want to be able to sell "preferential treatment" at the detriment of everyone else? As a matter of fact, I think they are.

    The only possible conclusion I can draw from this is as follows: it's okay for large companies to fuck people over, but governments damn well better... not. Or something.
    What the telecoms need to realize is that the governments have been fucking us over for centuries, if not longer, to the point that they've nearly perfected it to a (very perverse) form of art. The telecoms can't hope to compete, though that doesn't seem to be stopping them.

    --
    I own itburns.net. What should I put there?
    1. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong... by Winckle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I love the use of language, when they do it, it's because they cannot maintain "network neutrality", when someone does it to them, they are being hurt by "preferential treatment".

    2. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong... by abertoll · · Score: 1

      Of course... the media pretends to be retarded in the name of "neutrality." No one really believes that there's any merit to what the companies are saying. And if there were, why not deal with that problem when we get to it? I love the argument that "this MIGHT cause that, so we better not." I don't think we can pass laws (or not passed them) based on anything that has the remote possibility of happening.

      --
      "he drew his sword Ringil that glittered like ice... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds..."
  14. It's a sad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when the government has to ask permission of private business to do anything. :(
    Municipalities interested in getting into the broadband business would also have to solicit feedback from the private sector on planned deployments.

  15. Clean bill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Of course the incumbent monopolies don't want competition from municipalities! They know their current services are miserable, that we don't have any other choice, and that there are a lot of well run, responsive, municipal utilities out there!

    I live where I can choose between one of two local telco monopolies for bad Internet service: the phone company or the cable company. They don't really compete. Businesses have to go with DSL to get a static IP address and the privilege of running any servers. Home users go with the cable company because they already have cable television and the download speeds are marginally faster. Neither company has any connection whatsoever to the community, aside from extracting subscription fees and demanding cable right of ways. Both are widely despised.

    In contrast, our local publicly owned water and electric utilities are responsive, provide excellent service, have a focus on low rates, and actively solicit community input, and (oddly enough) are widely respected.

    If the water and electrical utility would provide the same sort of community oriented service for Internet that it now provides for water and electricity, I'd sign up in a heartbeat.

    There is, in fact, nothing to stop them from doing so right now. I live where there are no laws banning municipally owned data networks. But that brings me to this bill: although it would explicitly allow such networks, when I read the Slashdot summary my first concern was about the kinds of requirements it places on the municipalities. For example, soliciting input from local businesses (which might be served by such a utility) would make good business sense, but requiring discussions with the ILEC and cable company would seem silly. Fortunately the bill looks very clean and merely appears to mandate community involvement -- which is appropriate for a community network.

    I strongly recommend reading the bill. It easy to understand and only takes a minute.

    By the way: I see little reason to regulate publicly owned utilities any differently than the existing monopolies.

    Of course what I'd really like to see are the physical lines condemned and handed over to local government with the provision they allow any service provider who meets appropriate qualifications sell services over those lines. But since that won't happen, and would be a bit thorny in practice anyway, this bill seems like a reasonable step in the right direction.

    In the long run, the only thing that's going to materially improve high speed Internet service for most of us is some interest by the Congress and President in improving the situation. As it is, without competition, without any prodding from the powers that be, and given the practicalities of constructing new networks, the monopolies see no reason to improve and it's too risky for anyone else. So here's hoping for more active government motivation against the problem come 2008.

  16. postal roads? by Joseph_Daniel_Zukige · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ya know, I keep thinking about the Constitution's mandate to build postal roads, and I'm still having trouble understanding why the national government is not the primary interstate ISP, and why the state and local governments are not the primary state and local ISPs.

    I understand the dangers in letting the government bureaucracy develop cutting edge tech, but, if the state is always so bad with infrastructure tech, why aren't more bridges falling down every year?

    joudanzuki, with reservations

    1. Re:postal roads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Ya know, I keep thinking about the Constitution's mandate to build postal roads, and I'm still having trouble understanding why the national government is not the primary interstate ISP, and why the state and local governments are not the primary state and local ISPs. Well, the US government generally didn't build the railroads in the US, nor does the government own the rail lines today. Private companies are pretty good at building and operating this kind of infrastructure if the government gives them appropriate incentives and keeps them under a good level of regulation.

      Of course, the railroads kind of crapped out during the 1960s and 1970s, but that's because they were now competing against the interstate highway system... which was a competition they had no chance of winning, because the government has arbitrarily deep pockets.
  17. Un-Constitutional? by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

    I don't believe the Congress is granted the authority to write laws regulating state treatment of municipal ISPs (I don't see how you could possibly try to shoe-horn this into "regulating inter-state commerce").

    1. Re:Un-Constitutional? by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      *shrug* They shoe-horned the banning of marijuana into it.

    2. Re:Un-Constitutional? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      If you buy things over the Internet, they are often shipped from a different state. Thus, the Internet is used for interstate commerce. Therefore, anything connected to the Internet is interstate commerce.

      When it's time to draft Constitution 2.0, that clause needs some serious rewording.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:Un-Constitutional? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      constitutional or not, it's a matter of balance: FCC/Congress already made state and local utility commissions toothless:

          removing most regulatory power from local franchise authorities (after cable
          companies were safely protected as de facto monopolies)

          preventing state commissions from doing much to regulate DSL (a local service if
          there ever was one)

          making it difficult for locales to protect their skylines from cell towers, etc.

      allowing municipal broadband (i.e., prohibiting prohibitions) might restore a little
      balance in local control of local communications

    4. Re:Un-Constitutional? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      I don't believe the Congress is granted the authority to write laws regulating state treatment of municipal ISPs (I don't see how you could possibly try to shoe-horn this into "regulating inter-state commerce").

      There are a lot that of laws being written by congress that actually step on the agreement of separation between the responsibilities of state and country.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    5. Re:Un-Constitutional? by scgops · · Score: 1

      You think that taking away the authority to ban municipal broadband would somehow promote local autonomy? It seems like just the opposite to me.

      I agree with GP. This bill looks and smells unconstitutional. Is Congress trying to give the Federal courts more work to do? I'm sure the lawsuits would start immediately.

  18. Bill Would Reverse Bans on Municipal Broadband by timrichardson · · Score: 1

    I thought Bill was retiring.

  19. It's a good thing by Odonian · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Our internet service comes from our light department. Our town has no cable, and DSL covers only about half the town due to it's size. Last year the municipal light dept rolled out WiMax. It's not perfect, but it's damn better than dial-up. Before they went ahead though they had to write a letter to Verizon to get permission to enter the market, presumably due to this law or fear of it. Fortunately Verizon said yes (our town has only 1500 or so homes in it, so they probably didn't care - too busy rolling Fios out to people who already have broadband I guess) If Verizon had said no for some reason though, my phone line would be busy right now, and I probably wouldn't have loaded this article yet. So yes it's a good thing for competition in existing broadband markets, but it may also encourage other frightened municipalities from providing missing service.

  20. Deregulated in many parts of Europe by DELNI-AA · · Score: 2, Informative

    Interesting that the US is taking a rather regulation-friendly route! In Sweden, anyone can apply to each local municipality to pull your own fiber - and I have never heard anyone being denied that. In rural areas aswell as cities, many municipalities have pulled their own fibers in order to give their areas a improved competitive edge when any of the main telcos have not been up to the task quick enough. The business model many have choosen is a completely open one; the offer to lease dark fibers, wavelenghts on lit fibers, and in many cases all the way up to the IP level. And yes, they will give themselves preferential treatments by connecting schools, administrations and hospitals to a well working, high-capacity network at competitive cost -. a service level that would not have been available to them otherwise. Many individual networks are interconnected, forming regional gigabit networks. Facilities for co-location of equipment is generally also on offer. I believe most Telcos has seen this as an opportunity since it gives the access to more infrastructure at lower risk of investment. I woud attribute the high broadband penetration and low costs in Sweden partly to this de-regulation. According to recent figures 97% of the households can have at least DSL access and about 20% have a fiber to their home.

  21. Municipal broadband works well in Sweden by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here in Stockholm, there is a city owned company called Stokab, they build and own fibers to city owned apartment buildings as well as coop/condo buildings that sign a contract with the company. This company only owns and maintains the fibers, another company, called OpenNet, operates the fiber network. The actual services are provided by private companies, who are allowed equal access to the network. I have a choice between about 8 ISP's (with speeds between 10 and 100 Mbps both downstream and upstream, costing about 300 SEK (32/$45)/month for 100/100 Mbps), 4 VoIP providers, and (only) 2 TV providers, all operating over the fiber.

  22. what about by Adult+film+producer · · Score: 1

    companies that build & operate toll road and highways? Do they have the same kind of power to regulate what elected governments do? say if a county wanted to build a new road from scratch would they need to consult various third parties beforehand and try to figure out a fair solution.. because free publically accessible roads means someone is not making a profit.. and that's not fair..

  23. Mod Parent Funny by mvdwege · · Score: 2, Funny

    Telecom is extremely competitive

    You owe me a new keyboard.

    Mart
    --
    "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  24. Bridges, for instance. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    The same thing that's their incentive to maintain all the other things local government provides The reason the politicians want to provide you with WiFI is because it will buy your vote. In 5 years when the technology is outdated and expensive to maintain, it will be an entirely different matter where it's simply another cost to the taxpayer whether they want it or not.

    Fire departments are a bad analogy, they are required by law to maintain a certain level of service because fire spreads.
    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:Bridges, for instance. by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      Fire departments are a bad analogy, they are required by law to maintain a certain level of service because fire spreads.

      That's the worst "that's a bad analogy" I've ever heard. It's a perfect analogy because you can mandate that the telco service provided by the government has minimum standards of service.

    2. Re:Bridges, for instance. by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Fire departments are a bad analogy, they are required by law to maintain a certain level of service because fire spreads.

      In my experience, information also spreads, often faster than fire.

      After all, fire is dependent on the availability of combustible material, which can only be used once. Information can spread at the speed of light (or electrons) through all sorts of physical media that is unaffected by the passage of information and can be immediately reused to spread more information.

      Of course, one could use this to argue for private control of channels of communication. Private corporations are exempt from silly restrictions such as free speech, the right to publish, etc. So in the coming digital age, they can easily provide filters to slow or block the spread of information that they don't like such as ads for competitors or politicians that they don't support. Government agencies are seriously impeded by such things as the Bill of Rights (here in the US), make it materially more difficult for them to effectively control information flow. About all a government can do (legally) is to record the flow of information, but that's merely a threat of future action, not a way of stopping the spread of undesirable information.

      It would be nice if government comm agencies were required to maintain a minimum level of service for all citizens, as happens with at least some other government agencies.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  25. What ever happened to state's rights? by j1mmy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Which part of the U.S. Constitution authorizes Congress to do this? Does the 10th amendment mean anything anymore?

    1. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While you can easily hire lawyers to argue that the internet is not used in interstate commerce, it might be harder to find expert witnesses to testify to this. All a prosecuter would have to do is prove they _are_ experts and uh-oh.

    2. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      We are so far down the track that I can not even see them slicing salami.

    3. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interstate Commerce, on one of the more straightforward uses of the clause. The Internet gets used for commerce across state borders, and forbidding states from blocking access to it can easily be seen as falling under the interstate commerce clause.

      Which doesn't make this bill any less pointless. It would reverse bans on municipal internet services, placed by the very governments that would create them.

    4. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      I hate the Commerce Clause. There should be an additional requirement that you should be able to justify why a bill should exist at the Federal layer with a straight face.

      If a state really prides itself on the telecom companies that live within it, and maybe those telecom companies would give special discounts if they were the ones providing service to a municipality, it might be perfectly reasonable for that state to enact legislation that is perceived as a "ban" here. If it benefits their local telecom, then it benefits their local community, because lots of people there work for that telecom.

      Of course, this makes no sense for other states that may not have those interests. But why prohibit it for everyone? Why do these "bans" exist in the first place? Because of corrupt politicians in the pockets of the telecoms? Or could there perhaps be more to these pieces of legislation, that, when understood, make the "bans" seem a little more reasonable? But I guess meddling in the affairs of lower governments, under the guise of doing something that, on its face, seems like a good thing, is all we care about? "Yay, they're really Getting Things Done in Congress! I'm going to vote to re-elect these guys!"

    5. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      The internet and communications in general are channels for interstate commerce and interstate communication... should be managed by a federal agency. It would be like a state banning cities from building roads that link up to the interstate highway system in favor of only allowing private companies to build toll roads to do the same.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    6. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by zCyl · · Score: 1

      Seriously... Who benefits from a state granted monopoly to telecoms? Have you seen that work well lately?

      It doesn't even make sense that you're trying to defend the power of the people to grant corporate monopolies. How about the power of the people to decide for themselves what service they want? How about the power of the smaller towns to decide for themselves whether or not they want to organize their own broadband service as an additional option for their residents?

      Why do you think more choices lead to less freedom?

    7. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's okay for a government to prevent a smaller government from having municipal Wi-Fi, but it's not okay for a government to prevent a smaller government from preventing an even smaller government from having municipal Wi-Fi?

      How the hell do you reconcile that?

    8. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      The state governments are presumably acting on something. Nobody thinks to themselves, "hey, let's ban municipal broadband, because, I don't know, it's not cool!" Usually you have a telecom making a case and/or an offer to the government. If the government thinks the case/offer is reasonable, they may pass legislation that looks like a "ban" here.

      In this case, the federal government isn't acting on anything except an ideological conflict. People think, "bans on municipal broadband are bad mmk, so let's create federal legislation to prevent them!" No thought is given to why those governments chose to create those "bans". Maybe the state was getting something in return that more than made up for the apparent "loss" that a ban would create? All everyone can think of is "screw the evil telecoms!"

      One of the reasons we have semi-autonomous states instead of just one giant federal government ruling everything is that the states can experiment and try things that their neighbors aren't doing. This lets us see what works and what doesn't work. Everyone wants to homogenize all laws across all states, so they go directly to the federal government to Get Things Done, but really this is the wrong approach. If you don't like that your state has banned municipal broadband, and don't like the reasons they chose to do that, take that up with your state. We're all supposedly pro-competition, right? So let's try some different things and let's see which state's approach works.

    9. Re:What ever happened to state's rights? by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      Seriously... Who benefits from a state granted monopoly to telecoms? Have you seen that work well lately?

      A voluntary creation of a monopoly where none previously exists ought to benefit both the municipality and the telecom. This is little more than a contract codified as legislation. If it doesn't benefit both sides, why in the world would both sides agree to it?

      How about the power of the people to decide for themselves what service they want?

      Taken to an extreme, this is a Direct Democracy, and doesn't work at large scales. We rely on our governments to make decisions for the greater whole that some people may not agree with. One state with all-out competition might have broadband in a community in 3 years, at an average of $50/month. Another state might have a community that decided to contract out with a telecom to get broadband there sooner for a modest tax break in 1 year, at a cost of $60/month. Another community might think that's outrageous, so they wait 4 years. A third state might decide that they want universal coverage, so they set milestones and use tax breaks as incentives.

      The point is, US states have traditionally been able to experiment with various approaches to solving problems. Other states can then see what works and what doesn't, and apply what they've learned. And then you have to deal with the fact that what works for one state may not work for another.

      If you have a problem with telecom competition in your state, and you think it's a bad thing that municipalities can't run their own broadband, isn't that something you could just as easily talk with your state about? Why did your state create that ban? Why insist on going over their heads to the federal government when you don't get your way? The people of your state have spoken, and your personal opinion was deemed not to be in line with the desires of The People of Your State. Deal with it. Stop working to take their ability to self-govern away.

  26. Still need some competition. by domovoyny · · Score: 1

    Either way this plays out, I hope there will be some incentive for the provider to keep up the quality, increase bandwidth as needed, etc. I cannot even imagine how frustrating it's going to be to have your internet go down for a week, and to have nothing but an answering machine to complain to. And what happens when the municipality claims that there is a budget crunch, and there is no money to improve coverage? Then we'll want the private provider to come back. There's something to be said for "you get what you pay for."

  27. Mixed breed by keithjr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wager the future of public internet access will be a combined effort of private and public initiatives. Take for example the town of Brookline, MA, which recently implemented the nations first border-to-border wireless internet access system. It was an initiative based in the town, organized by the local government, but implemented by a private firm (Strix Systems I believe) to get a professional infrastructure in place. Although it's a pay service for most homes, public hotspots exist in parks, recreational areas, and some public housing. In short, with this bill I think we can at least look forward to more systems like this cropping up, which blur the line between municipal implementation and private enterprise. In the end, it means more choice for the consumer and more pervasive internet access for the people themselves.

  28. Actually, ATT had a GREAT rep by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Before the break-up, ATT had about as good uptime as what we see today. In fact, the vast majority of that infrastructure was becasue of ATT. As such, ATT was able to solve problems quickly. Now, if you go into a CO, you will see wires in disarray due to the fact that they have to allow other companies (verizon, etc) in, and those companies do not care about the mess. If the connections drop, they just blame the clec.

    As to the 100% uptime, we are nowhere near as good as it use to be. In particular, when a drop occurs, it takes MUCH longer to get service.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  29. Remember Wickard by cptnapalm · · Score: 1

    To my friends who see the blatant unconstitutionality of this act, remember Wickard.

    A farmer named Wickard, in the 1950s I believe, was sued by the Federal Government for having commited the heinous crime of growing too much wheat. Here are the facts of the case, which are undisputed.

    The farmer was growing more wheat than the statute permitted.
    The wheat never sold.
    The wheat never left the farm; it was fed to the cattle.

    The Supreme Court of the United States determined that Mr. Wickard had indeed violated the law and that the law was constitutional. Why?

    If Mr. Wickard had not grown the wheat, he MIGHT have bought it.
    If he had bought it, it MIGHT have come from another state.
    If it had come from another state, then it would be interstate commerce.
    Therefore, Mr. Wickard engaged in interstate commerce.

    "Legal reasoning" is an oxymoron.

    1. Re:Remember Wickard by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Are you referring to this case?

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  30. Duh! by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

    Well first of all, I have a feeling the telecoms give themselves preferential treatment already. So STFU, AT&T.
    Secondly - Good! Governments are supposed to give contracts to the lowest bidder. They're supposed to try to get the most out of our tax dollars. If they can save a few bucks from a government-run ISP, then good! They're spending enough of our money to build it, there better as hell be an upside to it. Because really, the government is paid for by the citizens, so them getting better access means we get better taxes. At least in theory. Once we pay off the massive construction costs.

  31. "... FUCK ... cockheads ..." by mi · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I've seen some robust language on this site, but I don't remember such concentration of it getting moderated to such levels (5 Insightful ATM).

    One developmentally-challenged dimwit (timmarhy) could happen, but where did the 3-4 others come from to mod him up?

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:"... FUCK ... cockheads ..." by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Perhaps people are just a trifle upset at the telcos they have to deal with?

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:"... FUCK ... cockheads ..." by pthor1231 · · Score: 1

      The strong language doesn't detract from the truthiness of his statement.

  32. Screw this by SpectreBlofeld · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why don't we go ahead and put all goods and services in the hands of the government, because everything would be cheaper, right? Because they're not operating for a profit? I don't want to pay for your broadband, or anyone else's, with my tax dollars. Nor do I want my Internet regulated by those who brought us the PATRIOT act, the DMV, and the IRS. The government is terrible at managing cost-effective solutions to anything because they're spending other people's money. Take this million-dollar outhouse, for example: http://www.jldr.com/oh1mill.html . "The whole project is loaded with Park Service overhead. The agency already has spent $860,000 for design and construction supervision teams. In all, the job could end up costing taxpayers more than $6 million." It's a four-holer outhouse with no running water. The worst argument for municipal broadband that I've heard is that it helps the poor who can't afford Internet access. I suppose we'll be buying them laptops with WiFi, too. The people that benefit most from municipal broadband are the people that can afford it but don't want to pay. If you want Internet access, pay for it. It's a luxury item that didn't exist in the public's perception fifteen short years ago. Don't levy taxes on the poor who can't afford or need a MySpace page so you can read Slashdot for free.

    1. Re:Screw this by Enigma2175 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The problem is that the municipalities are granting monopolies on last-mile transport to private enterprise instead of handling it themselves. If I have to pay Comcast or Qwest for my connection, they insist that they make a profit off of it. However, if my city owns the network all they demand is that they break even on it. My current connection is 15 Mb/s symmetrical fiber. It costs me about $36/mo. Previously I was paying Comcast $45-$50/mo for a 3Mb/512Kb connection. Yes, it cost the city some money to lay the fiber but now that it is installed the maintenance is fairly cheap and EVERY house in the city has a connection to the network. There are multiple service providers for data, phone and TV so there is no monopoly pricing, if you don't like your current provider you can switch. You can rant about government pork, but the local government generally does a better job of controlling overhead and grift than the federal. You are criticizing hypothetical networks but I am sitting on a real one and from my perspective, it is sweet. I am getting way better speeds at a lower price than I was before. Yes, some of my tax dollars had to be used to build the network, but with the monthly cost savings I am coming out ahead. I am generally not for expanded government but where it comes to natural monopolies like utilities and roads, sometimes government does a better job than business.

      --

      Enigma

    2. Re:Screw this by SpectreBlofeld · · Score: 1

      "Yes, some of my tax dollars had to be used to build the network, but with the monthly cost savings I am coming out ahead." Yeah, you're coming out ahead of all the people don't use the service and still pay for it with their tax dollars. But I bet you didn't think of the other people that pay so you can surf.

    3. Re:Screw this by tsm_sf · · Score: 1

      So if you don't use something you shouldn't be taxed for it? Sounds good to me! Can't wait for my first Op. Enduring Weasel refund.

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    4. Re:Screw this by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I just don't understand why it costs the city so much more to bid out a roll-out from subcontractors than it does for Comcast to bid out to the same contractors: well the answer is it doesn't. Should it cost more for network management and maintence; again I don't see where it would make a difference. The only place where a big company might have a real advantage is leasing the raw bandwidth for the internet connection and peering agrements, yet my county is able to provide fiber to it's offices and connect them to the internet cheeper than Comcast can.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  33. Cherry Picking.... by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

    Most telcom/broadband suppliers do this in the US. RCN's entire business plan was built around it. The US population is scattered in such a way that close to 75% of the population lives in just 20% of the landmass (Boston - DC & Seattle - LA corridors). One of the biggest things the telcos are fighting is that the municipalities are trying to require that they don't cherry pick who gets the service. AT&T has gone after several Illinois municipalities that are caught between regulations saying they have to provide equitable access to utilities in the municipality & other regulations saying they can't stop 'network improvememnts'.

    Thus the telcos are saying that they are doing a network improvement when they are building out for IPTV and are not subject to the laws about buildout requirements that the cable companies are. Thus they claim that they can cherry pick the wealthiest 10% of the municipality & can ignore the rest - while the cable companies are required to do full buildouts.

    1. Re:Cherry Picking.... by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      Not sure why they'd allow that. It seems pretty obvious they can improve their infrastructure network all they want, but they cannot offer new services to customers until they do so equitably.

      "But that's not fair!" scream the telcos.

      Right. It's the law. It's not meant to be fair.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
  34. WHAAAAAT? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1
    YEAH...I'M AT THE SUPERMARKET

    If you see any European or Asian over the age of 45 on the phone, they usually shout. We never had to do that here in the States during the AT&T era Why is it then, that when you see most Americans on the phone in a public place, they are usually shouting? Not to mention that if they have a hands-free, they think that they need to look everyone around them directly in the eye.
    1. Re:WHAAAAAT? by Original+Replica · · Score: 1

      Why is it then, that when you see most Americans on the phone in a public place, they are usually shouting?

      I attribute that to the disposable nature of our mobile phones. If you have a crappy mic or a crappy speaker you feel the need to shout. If a company were to market a phone on it's superior audio properties, and the phone sold well then we might see a change in this behaviour. But phones are marketed on their slick new look and fancy new options, and the phone companies are all too happy to attribute all of the call quality the "network". This keeps people with the same provider but buying new phones every two years.

      --
      We are all just people.
    2. Re:WHAAAAAT? by Divebus · · Score: 1

      People wearing headphones do the same thing and a phone in your ear qualifies for half of that. These Europeans and Asians are SHOUTING, not like what you're talking about.

      --

      Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
  35. Rediculas by Joebert · · Score: 1

    Municipalities interested in getting into the broadband business would also have to solicit feedback from the private sector on planned deployments.'


    Hey bob, they want to conect Bungtuck to Bumfuck, what do you think ?

    Tell them it's a bad idea right after you get our crews started on it.
    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
  36. Interstate Commerce clause by IvyKing · · Score: 1
    I was about to say interstate commerce - then saw ya beat me to it....


    What congress is doing with this bill is no more unconstitutional than the bills prohibiting local taxation of information services. One difference is that instead of limiting what local governements can do, the bill gives more freedom to the local governments (it allows, but does not mandate, municipal ISP's).


    The best of both worlds would be where the local goverment provides the last mile connectivity and the individual is allowed to pick their ISP.

  37. The government owns the roads too? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    Screw that. No wonder it takes me so long to get anywhere.

    I say we privatize the road system. That way people will have a choice in what type of road system they use. You could have your budget system, which would similar to the one we are all forced to use now. Then you could have a premium one, basically parallel to the first (or maybe directly above it), but with no speed limits or traffic lights. Then, for very impatient people with deep pockets, there would be a luxury provider who would build roads that go directly from your house to your work and anywhere else you frequently go.

  38. Sigh! Sometimes it seems tradition. by HiThere · · Score: 1

    I currently live in a city that has apparently had a tradition of corrupt government continuously since at least 1900...and perhaps longer. This is odd, since the other local cities have no such reputation, and people move back and forth between them easily, often not even noticing which city they're in.

    So. Essentially the same citizenry, but one out of, say 10 (local is hard to be specific about) local cities is corrupt. People get upset with one government and "throw the rascals out". Makes no difference. Import politicians from outside the area. Makes no difference. (Well, to be honest it was just the mayor that was imported, the council remained local politicians...it's hard to replace everyone.)

    That said, even so I trust my local government more than I trust the telcos. I may end up with corrupt politicians, but their access to the levers of power is dependent on not unduly riling the citizenry. (We got them to stop cutting down trees along the local street...even though it probably meant not giving business to somebody's brother or brother-in-law.)

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  39. Huge campaign contributions anyone? by symbolset · · Score: 1

    The big money communications interests will buy the death of this bill like they bought the death of the last one. It's coming up on campaign season so lawmakers propose excellent laws as extortion to big money interests. Even the sponsors probably have no real expectation it will pass. Everybody in congress has to have a few of these so they can wave them at the crowds as proof they went to Washington to help their constituents. Then they get their campaign money buy killing the great public spirited laws of the other incumbents. It's a game.

    That's a shame. This is an obviously necessary law that would bring great benefit to all US residents. Read the bill. It's only five pages.

    I would much prefer my state, county or city government build out fiber networks than build sports stadiums and such things. I would also like a law like "No road project without a pipe to draw fiber through buried under it".

    I live in a state where the telco and cableco bought a law to prevent communities from self-helping themselves to modern communications infrastructure even when the commercial interests flat refuse to provide it. The incumbent providers bought the law because they were afraid the projects already under way to build out communications infrastructure in several places in the state would swell into a popular movement of universal broadband for everyone. The muni broadband projects already under way were grandfathered. It's now several years later and guess who has the best bandwidth and lowest prices? Yeah, that would be the munis. Guess who doesn't have service at all? Yeah, that would be the communities that would have built out their infrastructure if it wasn't illegal. Now that the ban is in place the incumbent providers no longer find it so urgent to expand coverage to some areas or improve their offerings at more than a glacial pace.

    I would love for this bill to pass, but I'll believe it when I see it.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:Huge campaign contributions anyone? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

      That's a shame. This is an obviously necessary law... What I don't understand is why the federal laws like this are necessary. IANAL, but I can't believe that the Constitution allows states to tell cities and towns that they are not allowed to provide certain services to their residents. What's next? Is some state going to pass a law forbidding a city from funding their own free medical clinics. Hell, while we're at it lets ban public fire, police, sewer, water and garbage collection. And when private industry decides a town is too small and remote to be profitable, sure it will become a disease infested pile of garbage where crime runs rampant for a little while, but eventually the whole thing will burn to the ground. Problem solved.
  40. Free local calls? Wow I'm so impressed!!!111!! by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 1

    As a bonus to my thirty bucks a month 28Mbps ADSL2+ line, I get free phone calls to 45 countries (all of Europe, USA, China, etc ...)

    Where do you get that in the US nowadays?

    Oh that's right, you don't!

    1. Re:Free local calls? Wow I'm so impressed!!!111!! by Jerry · · Score: 1

      No, we don't.

      I pay $55 for my 10MB/s RR bandwidth BUT I am required to pay $25 for 22 channels of Cable TV before they'd sell me the broadband connection. Total bill: $70. The TV stinks. After 11PM most of the channels have infomercials all night. During the day it is Judge Stupid, or 20-30 year old game or quiz shows. About the only good stuff on those 22 channels are PBS, CNN, and two CSPAN channels.

      About fifteen years ago cities, towns and villages in the USA began building their own fiber optic networks so they could establish affordable PUBLIC Internet services. Lincoln, NE, buried a fiber optic trunk line in my yard. The cable companies lobbied congress to get special legislation that would reimburse them for the expense of putting in Fiber optic and forbid the cities, towns and villages from doing so. The cable companies took the money but never completed the fiber option network. Congress never called them on it, not that they ever successfully oversight anything anymore.

      --

      Running with Linux for over 20 years!

  41. That's funny by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

    "Will Joe Cityadmin give a rat's butt if I call to complain about an outage? "

    Well, good luck if you have an outage with Comcast. My internet line was down for two months. They kept closing the ticket claiming it was fixed. One tech came out and tried to tell me I needed lighting arrestors that he personally would install for only $300. Then they finally fixed it just as I switched to Verizon FIOS. Then they called me back and asked what it would take to switch back... I told them "A promise that it won't take 2 months to fix a problem". They said they couldn't do that and hung up.

    Or better still... if you have a physical problem with a buried line from Verizon. Two weeks minimum for them to come out and look at it. I was without phone service for 2 1/2 weeks a few years back because workmen on my neighbor's property cut the phone lines accidentally.

    So as much as I agree with you, it's hard to argue government could do any worse than the fiasco that is the communications infrastructure in the U.S. It's pitiful.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  42. No, screw you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You can make the same argument about public schools ("I don't have kids," or "my kids go to private school,"), state universities (ibid), the FAA ("I don't fly."), public roads ("I don't drive."), the National Science Foundation ("I'm a religious loon who doesn't 'believe in' science."), public libraries ("Theft from the publishers! Er, I mean, Won't someone think about the poor starving authors?"), the EPA ("Toxic sludge is good for you!"), the NRC ("I trust private industry 100% where nuclear power plants are concerned, because private industry would never cut corners or skimp on safety to save a buck."), the DOL ("No employer would ever try to fuck me over or take advantage of me."), etc.

    Shall I continue?

    You may not use all of the services your tax dollars pay for, and neither do I, but when those tax dollars go to something that is actually useful and beneficial to the public (as opposed to pork projects, contractor "waste"/theft, etc.) what is your reason for objecting? Besides general short-sightedness, selfishness and/or greed? Especially when services are provided that private industry can't supply, won't supply for whatever reason, or might even attempt to block in order to maintain a monopolistic stranglehold?

  43. Cool! A Minnie Driver/Anne Hathaway love scene. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    So let's see. The telecoms and other utilities spent the vast bulk of the 20th century operating under a socialist notion that "this town heah ain't big enough fer the both of us", and sought "rent seeking" laws giving them a monopoly in that particular town.

    Now that towns want to go one step further and do it completely themselves, suddenly they're all so darned interested in fairness and competition and not wanting the towns to give their own stuff preferential treatment in laws.

    I don't know. It's nice to see them change their mind, but doing it for the wrong reason seems so...dirty.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  44. Building bridges to a better future by symbolset · · Score: 1

    Communications infrastructure very much is an essential part of interstate commerce, government and the press. More and more people rely on the Internet exclusively for news and information. Products are ordered and paid for over the Internet. Some products are not available in any other way. Funds are transferred. Travel is arranged. Federal income taxes are paid over it, tax returns are filed on it. Many essential government services at all levels are provided on the Internet. Some places now mandate parallel online services for all public services where possible. Online voting is seeing trials in various places.

    You are right that for a state to tell a county or town that they may not build a bridge, road or ferry to allow their citizens to engage in commerce, interact with the federal government, or vote would be a violation of the rights of the citizens. Telling them they can't build a digital bridge to ecommerce, egovernment or slashdot is no different.

    But the laws exist. The laws are preventing people from engaging in interstate commerce, interacting with their government in the most accessible way, accessing global commons of information. The laws are not being challenged.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  45. At least he came to your house!! by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    COX doesn't provide that level of service.
    We had an outage that eventually lasted five weeks. For the first week they told us there was an area wide outage (which must have been true because my neighbor's was out too). Every time we called they said that they had no idea how long it would be out but assured us that a technician was working on it. After that, they kept saying that it was a local problem, and they would send a tech out "tomorrow." I have no idea what day of the week "tomorrow" comes after, so every few days we would call them back - and they would say that he had been there and hadn't found any problems. This seemed strange since we had never seen anyone and the cable was still out - so they would send out the same invisible tech again with the same results. When we refused to pay our bill and threatened to terminate service, they finally sent a real tech - who took one look at the junction box outside and noticed that they had neglected to hook our line back up after the original outage.

  46. WTF? by BigAssRat · · Score: 1

    Why does this make sense to everyone??? This is going to be taxpayer subsidized BUSINESS that the public municipalities and governments should be involved in.
     
    Why doesn't anyone wonder why the government doesn't just deregulate the entire industry. The problem is that AT&T (as they seem to be the whipping boy here today) can get an exclusive agreement to operate in a location. Why not just disallow this and open up competition? All those of you who think this is SUCH a great idea...don't you realize that TAXPAYERS are paying for this! If you think regulations about filtering, download limits, etc apply on a service you PAY for then just wait 'til the government receives the bill for the amount of data transferred and complaints about service being slow. They will figure out how to stop P2P and large downloads and anything else that can be considered "the using of too much bandwidth."
     
        Besides that, it IS unfair to ANY business when government enters that market. De-regulation is what should be happening and open up the markets to competition.

  47. About those postal roads... by LinearBob · · Score: 1

    I think you jumped over a few historical facts when you mentioned the Interstate Highways were unfair competition to the railroads. When the Interstate Highways were designed in the early 1950's and built in the late 50's and early 60's, they were paid for by .... long pause so you can think ....

    The Department of Defense.

    Of course the railroads could not compete with the Interstate Highways. But why would the DOD build the Interstate Highways? Well, to understand that, you needed to look at the first Interstate Highways built, and notice they were all very flat, and that NOTHING crossed over them, not even power lines. These new highways were built with several hundred feet of separation between the opposite direction traffic lanes. And they were incredibly straight. The few curves these highways had were all very gradual.

    Any ideas yet why DOD paid for building the Interstate Highways? Here's a hint -- the Strategic Air Command.

    During the late 50's and early 60's, the Strategic Air Command was a very large part of our national defense, with many long range bombers in the air at any one time. But, an enemy might attack our airfields, in particular, those with 10,000 foot runways. Such an attack could prevent many of our long range bombers from taking off, and prevent the bombers already in the air from refueling before they flew to their targets over the North Pole.

    AH HA!

    Our Interstate Highways were built to be used as runways -- runways for our bombers to use for refueling. By covering the countryside with runways, there was no way a potential adversary could prevent our long range bombers from refueling so they could reach their targets. But technology eventually obsoleted the Strategic Air Command as our primary defense, and we no longer needed those runways all over the countryside.

    At about the same time as the Interstate Highway system was being built, a nationwide broadband network was being built by AT&T. This nationwide network, consisting of microwave relay stations and coaxial cable repeaters, carried long distance telephone calls and network television programs. About 1/2 of the capacity of this broadband network was leased to the Federal Government. The Federal Government provided guaranteed traffic for this nationwide network, insuring it would be built. Here are two links to some of the history and technical details of AT&T's broadband network.

    http://www.corp.att.com/history/nethistory/milesto nes.html

    http://long-lines.net/

    The AT&T "Long Lines" network was built with no central control point, specifically so it would survive a nuclear war. But eventually, the AT&T microwave and coaxial cable network approached saturation, and more bandwidth was needed. Worse, many of the consulates and embassies belonging to our adversaries now had arrays of microwave antennas on their roofs.

    Here is are two links to what some of the government traffic passing through the AT&T microwave and coaxial cable physical network was:

    http://www.albany.edu/ltl/using/history.html

    http://www.inetdaemon.com/tutorials/internet/histo ry.shtml

    In the 1990's, AT&T sold off their microwave and coaxial cable physical network because by then AT&T had deployed a fiber mesh network with far higher bandwidth. This fiber network also offered significantly better security than the microwave network did because intercepting message traffic on a fiber network without being detected is quite difficult. AT&T's conversion to an all fiber network made those consulate and embassy roof microwave antennas largely obsolete for gathering electronic intelligence.

    About our trans-oceanic te

    --
    An analog gray hair frantically clinging to the trailing edge of technology. :-)
  48. Oh, now they support Net Neutrality? by Gel214th · · Score: 1

    Amazing.

    These are the same Telecoms who are pushing for the right to decide what sites get accessed faster and what applications and traffic gets priority on their network based on which companies have paid them more?
    Now they are worried about States prioritizing their own traffic?

    It's utterly hypocritical and shows that this has nothing to do with the consumer, consumer rights, or even votes (since the US public in general appears to be apathetic): It's ALL about the money, and who pays the most of that money to Senators to get their laws passed...or 'lobbying' whatever you want to call it.

    --
    -Gel214th