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Strict German Computer Crime Law Now in Effect
SkiifGeek writes "With little fanfare, section 202c of the German computer crime laws came into effect over the weekend. Worryingly for Security professionals, the laws make the mere possession of (creates, obtains or provides access to, sells, yields, distributes or otherwise allows access to) many useful tools illegal. A similar law was proposed for the UK, however it was modified prior to passing through parliament due to the outcry from the industry. Phenoelit, KisMAC, the CCC, and the Month of PHP Bugs are just some of the relatively high profile projects and groups to have already taken measures to remove or modify content under this law."
Our precious series of tubes is doomed
Germany is making sure that when they start a new world war, there will be no legal tools to crack their enigmas!
Looks like I'm a criminal in Germany then. Wonder when they're gonna demand my extradition...
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
To reduce or eliminate computer crime, first step is to make illegal the tools to determine whether or not you are vulnerable, and tools that find unknown vulnerabilities.
Makes you wonder if any of the vulnerability scanner companies will ever be able to do business in Germany again. I guess every company that has such a scanner has to now turn the devices over to the state?
Well intentioned, this is the sort of reason why lawmakers need an education in how improvements are made in software and hardware. You can't stanch curiousity by outlawing it. The German software industry gave us improvements to Linux from SuSE, Project LiMux, and a raft of excellent tools for debugging, general hacking, and just plain good creative code.
Now a Damocles sword hangs over the head of the genuinely interested German hacker. And hacks will continue across the rest of the planet, because improvements are iterative lessons learned from mistakes.
Why not instead develop infrastructure that allows ISPs to eliminate machines controlled by bots? Or find a way to make a better international citizen out of PTT-behaving Deutche Telekom/T-Mobile? Or perhaps learn the lessons from the fear-engendering legislation that's now law.....
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Classy way to claim first post.
Back to the topic, though; the internet should simply be declared a public place and laws pertaining to such public places shttp://www.dslreports.com/hould be applied, rather than creating a whole new set of laws for the internet. There are enough laws already; furthermore, laws everywhere are different; it just causes undue conflict.
Of course, sites which require the user to click a link indicating that they agree to a set of terms (door) or to login (lock) should be treated as private property and those laws should apply.
Here's the fun part: get every country with internet access to go along with this.
Hell, I'd be happy if they just did it in the US.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
First they came for the botnet scripts, and I said nothing, because I was not a script kiddie
Then they came for the portscanners, but I said nothing, because I was not trying to hack boxes
Then they came for the packet sniffers, but I said nothing because I thought my firewall was strong enough
Then they came for SATAN, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an admin
And then, they came for my elite box, and I had to go back to using my mom's e-Machine, and I cried and cried
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
First they came for thread_id 0051, but I printed nothing to the console because that was not my thread.
Then they came for process_id 0050, but I did not SIGTRP because I did not depend on that process.
Then they came for process_id 0003, but I did not SIGALRM because my timer had not yet expired.
When they came for me, there were no processes left from which to spawn.
Not being a German speaker I'm completely incapable of being informed on this issue. Not being in Germany, I could also care less.
So, is there anyone reading this who 1) understands German and 2) has read the law?
Does it happen to say anything about "intent"? Cause most every law I've read in English that was reported similarly to this law has, and the reporting is just a blatant attempt to stir up hysteria.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Like people did with DeCSS?
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
germany is now going to be a REALLY easy place to hack.
how will they manage to prevent EVIL hackers in germany from downloading their evil hacker tools from https://someip.org/hackertools/ ?
They won't even notice the URL. It'll be encrypted under SSL.
I first saw mention of this several weeks ago and it was a red herring then; I suspect it is still a red herring. The law does not punish possession of "hacking tools" unless they are used in the commission of a crime, much like many US laws that increase the penalty of a crime of violence if it is committed using a firearm.
Take a deep breath and read the actual law.
So we can send the send the corrupt, authoritarian Germans back to the other side.
What?
Update: Compilers banned in germany because they could be used to create evil software! Litigation of this manner can never solve computer problems, short of banning computers.
Likely, people with a good reason to posess hacker tools (eg. legitimate anti-virus folk) will be allowed controlled tools - much like how the people who design kevlar vests are allowed to have automatic weapons etc for legitimate test purposes.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
::: nods :::
Of course, how silly of me not to realize.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
Does anyone have a link to a good English translation and legal analysis of the new law? The Phenoelit page translates the law as affecting "computer programs whose aim is to commit a crime". That doesn't cover Nmap, which I designed for security professionals. But of course some blackhats use it too, and I don't want to bet my freedom on being able to convince a technologically illiterate judge in Germany of my intent.
I hope groups like the CCC (which is apparently quite powerful in Germany) are able to get this overturned! If legitimate German admins are afraid to use Nmap and other security tools while the crackers retain full access to them, that won't be a pretty sight!
-Fyodor
Insecure.Org
Let us pause for a moment from discussing the "government versus people" debate, and (just for the sake of the argument) assume that we are living in an utopia where the government passes laws to protect citizens, not oppress them.
OK, so we ignore the potential for abuse. But that still leaves the question: how, exactly, is the law supposed to protect anyone?
- The possession of this software is virtually undetectable unless some kind of crime has been committed using them (such as using it to actually attack someone else's machine). Well guess what, attacking someone else's machine has ALREADY been illegal (and justly so).
- People who were and are willing and able to use these tools to attack other machines have already risked punishment far greater than the punishment meted out for merely possessing the equipment.
- Think about this analogy: If you outlaw the possession of crowbars (because they are used by burglars), who will suffer more, the burglar or the construction worker who also happens to need a crowbar? Of course the construction worker -- the burglar operates in secret and the worker in open; and if caught, the punishment for burglary is significantly bigger to the point that someone willing to perform a burglary will not care for the (relatively small) additional punishment given for the possession of the crowbar. But for the construction worker, this law means losing his job.
- Some people would see an analogy between this law and advocation of gun control (less guns = supposedly less violence). But unlike gun control, where restricting guns (at least theoretically) makes it harder for criminals to obtain them, this law cannot possibly do anything to prevent the obtainment of these "hacking" tools, which can only be detected ex post facto.
So, if this law...
- Does nothing to reduce the availability of these tools
- Does nothing to reduce the potential destructive purpose of these tools
- Does not provide a serious deterrent to would-be abusers of these tools
- DOES, however, significantly limit the LAWFUL use of these tools by security professionals
Then why the heck is it needed? Heck, if I was a blackhat, I'd be very, very happy that security auditors got the shaft, meaning I have a much better chance of finding exploits which the good guys didn't get a legal chance to find and close first.
It seems that the quote "those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve nothing and lose both" never held truer, because not only liberty is sacrificed, but from any possible perspective hacking has became EASIER as a result of this law, not harder.
Why do politicians try to outlaw tools used to commit crimes? A tool can be used for evil or for good, and a person out to do evil can turn even the most innocuous object into a tool.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
At least you can still attend Defcon and put yourself on their network for a free penetration test from all of the friendly attendees. No illegal haxor tools needed.
That "lunux" is actually illegal now? Is your son a Computer Hacker?
Germany's taking the noted Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal approach to security. By removing the things that lets you know if you're vulnerable or compromised, you're obviously secure! Screaming "la la la, I can't see you or hear you" is optional.
Ive seen security analysts demonstrating breaking into websites with a web browser, you dont need specific hacking tools in many cases because what is available will often do the job just fine.
But in this case you won't know for sure if the cat is dead until the German police kick in your door to look.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Perhaps Slashdot should implement some kind of AC Russian roulette system, where there's a chance that your username/IP will be printed with any AC post.
tions...
The only thing more dangerous than crackers with security tools is a complacent society who thinks their laws will protect them from international threats which continuously transit their borders as the rain falls from the sky.
Any law that curtails the free flow of vulnerability data *locally* only serves to diminish the evolution of necessary countermeasures and knowledge which ultimately leave more people in Germany vulnerable to successful attack. (IE more people BURNING IN HELL)
No country can afford to pass laws which make their own people less prepared to deal with the real world. Especially one as insignifcant on the world stage as Nazi-less Germany.
This is obviously already having a chilling effect on several well known tool vendors.
Looks like "Security through Fascism" is the new improved version of "Security through Obscurity".
Made ability to Google a crime? -- I knew Germany is working on a search engine to compete with Google, but this is ridiculous.
Germany will be the new targeted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeypot_(computing) for the following hackers: ...).
americans, englandians and germanians outside (& friends as franceians, chinaians,
Wait a moment!!!
The Honeypots (as hacking's tools) are prohibited in Germany!!!
Germany will be e-bankrupted without honeypots!!!
I'm HyperJacker the RIPper too!!!
You have several options to carry your hacking tools:
* go to Switzerland (1).
* go to Luxemburg (2).
* go to Belgium (3).
* go to Netherlands (4).
* go to Russia (5).
* go to China (6).
* go to North Korea (7). Dangerous? Why? It's not dangerous, jacker!
* go to Iran (8). There are bunkers for jackers.
I'm only a "bear" protesting the politicians's agreements's acts.
And I've just run an nmap scan of bundestag.de .
I await the knock on my door with interest.
as a young german citizen currently working in tech support i must state that i am very very afraid.
though my boss did not even know about this law (strange), it somehow makes me believe it could be good to try another profession.
Q: can one be prepared for the "kristallnacht", i ?
parent says that this is "well intentioned". i for one, do not believe that.
...
the criminalisation of certain computer programs is a puzzle piece.
more puzzle pieces:
- data retentionpräventiv
- proposed "online search and seizure"
- RFID + biometry in pass documents
- nullifying of bank secercy
etc. pp.
hackers are the one in the know how to defeat those systems.
to criminalize them is only the logical conclusion.
IMHO, there are only two options:
a) massive resistance (won't happen [insert stalin quote here])
b) going to sweden, netherlands
Back to the topic...
No, you're eternally off-topic for responding to a troll post just to get a higher placement.
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. -Groucho Marx
The THC (The Hackers Choice) group has already been forced to discontinue some of it's best projects due to this absurd law.
http://www.thc.org/Silenced are THC's Credit, Hydra, Scan and War-Drive. Hydra will be the most missed, as it was one of the best authentication bruteforcers. Not dwelling on this defeat to freedom of information and the security community, I suggest everyone in the security community begin resisting this trend towards silencing the messenger of insecurities.
We should be working to create new tools and better means by which to distribute information and code, both securely and anonymously. The foolish politicians and companies who think they can dare enforce security by ignoring the problem and silencing individuals should be shown that this strategy does not work. This is yet another challenge to all the security researchers and programmers, will you allow others to dictate your creativity?
--postmodern
Do you want Obscurity?
...:
...
;; ANSWER SECTION:
... i break it with Ctrl-C ./vir_collect_execute --propagate --redcode 80 --weeks 3 no-deutsch-crime-law.worm
Hide your nearly-complete LiveCD Back|Track2 http://www.remote-exploit.org/backtrack.html !!!
Sr. Police, my OEM PC is running Windows only. My hard disk is 100% pure Hasefroch Windows.
1-hour ago
Running Back|Track2
$ dig http://bundestag.de/
bundestag.de. 43200 IN A 217.79.215.140
$ whois 217.79.215.140 # i'm waiting long time
Interrupted by signal 2...
Timeout.
$ # how stupid am i if they are spying me with their hacking tools because the protocol's 'whois' doesn't answer me!!!
The 'whois' protocol is mangled by the e-government!!!
$ traceroute 217.79.215.140
664 * * *
665 ge-1-2-22-ed1.ixsolutions.net (212.68.205.83)
666 ge-0-2-22-bg1.ixsolutions.net (217.68.155.35)
667 ge-2-2-22-ed2.ixsolutions.net (217.79.208.25)
668 * * *
$
$ halt & exit
Do we play to 'Who is who?' game?
Govern wins - you loses.
My redcode worm is running for you, byebye 8)
Don't laugh. The same thing happened when they outlawed CD/DVD copying software. Sell a stack of old magazines, get slapped with a hefty lawsuit and probably put on trial.
So while in theory, the German govt. thought they were outlawing computer hacking, they actually outlawed computer security.
Oops.
Does this mean that every os having netstat, telnet, ping, etc is now banned in Germany?
So one should carry their nmap scanner visible while online? Or how are those "guns in public" laws of the US? Besides in many countries you can be punished for offending people by the way you act or appear in public, just like many countries would put drunkards in detention should they get a little too drunk for public eyes. In other words, I'd be sad to give up both freedom and privacy, just to simplify the rules.
Some regulation on developing/publishing/possessing point-and-click exploiting or virus-creation tools would make much more sense than banning proof of concept and investigation tools, the latter requires one to know what one is doing, thus one cannot deny intent. The problem is just where's the line between tool and toy? Who would define the baseline user? I mean to me, using tools, like nmap and hping, feels as natural as word processing does to others.
If I was as pragmatic and objective as I claim to be, would I be commenting?
Self defense against the government, that is.
Wolfgang Schäuble (German's clinically paranoid home secretary) has been pushing hard to get the "Bundestrojaner" (federal trojan) approved and legal. Now, what is the worth of a trojan that can be detected?
I mean, it could be a coincidence that those things appear at the same time. I just don't believe in coincidence. Especially when you're dealing with unenforcable laws, since this one is not enforceable. Unless, of course, you have a good reason to believe that someone actually has those tools. Which, in turn, means that you have to have some kind of access to the machine(s) in question (or, rather, you should have some access but don't because something's blocking you).
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
the laws make the mere possession of (creates, obtains or provides access to, sells, yields, distributes or otherwise allows access to)
Where does it say 'possess'? As far as I can see, all it says is that if you break in or make it possible for others to break in, then you are violating the law. Your interpretation goes far beyond that, and I think it is likely because you want to see it as a violation of some sort of 'freedom'. If one were to use the same sort of interpretation on, say, breaking into a house, then you would say that owning a key to your house was a crime.
If you want to be taken serious, at least try to give a fair and accurate representation of things.
Germany bans knives because they can be used to kill people. Smart movement, cows.
The big problem here is that most people and most politians in Germany (and probably elsewhere aswell) couldn't care less about this sort of law and its effects. I've explained to academics the effects of the German law for protection of copyright on the internet and they said that nobody would pass such a law. I couldn't get them to realize that the law allready has been passed. It's the same with this one. Politicians couldn't care less. If major software companies with lots of employees would start to move out of Germany due to such laws, then they would react. If this law should ever be applied I don't think it would last long.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
http://xkcd.com/261/
Don't forget to place your mouse on the image.
Why not consider enforcing laws already on the books? Learning how criminals ply their trade is the first step in learning security. Criminals make good cops -- proved. The vast majority of people that 'play hacker' do so to improve their own knowledge of security.
BillSF
We have been through all of this Red Herring before and it won't make any difference. There is no point trying to understand how unimportant this discussion is if you don't understand today's Germany. Germany is the biggest exporting nation on Earth and it is the biggest player in the EU - which is the biggest market on Earth. Post war Germany actively chose the social democrat model for their economy and political system. It has the finest constitution in Europe (modelled on the US but containing substantially more pages!) the welfare state supports everyone and the growing economy provides the work that creates the wealth that pays for all this. It is normal for such a society to create a bunch of laws odd to English speakers - but then my own country doesn't even have a written constitution and our councils tax the individuals home. The present day German is focussed on career, personal improvement and health and very little else.
It is an unusual characteristic of Germany that everyone suffers from angst (fair enough, they invented the word) but the angst is all about really unlikely events (acrylimide in barbeque food causing cancer for example) and yet they throw caution to the winds the moment they get in a car.
This angst condition is so endemic I have christened it "Fright Club". Only a few weeks ago they were obsessed with "wifi smog" people were switching of their routers and phones to protect themselves from this new scourge. It didn't appear to stop them from watching television or listening to the radio, but there you go - science and magic confused or just interchangeable.
Coupled with this angst is another curious condition called Gründlichkeit or thoroughness. Gründlichkeit is just so much part of the German character. Back in Scotland you could read the important parts of the Blue Book tax guide in the bookshop and easily identify any new legal tax avoidance strategies. You couldn't do that with the German Tax Books because there are about 127 of them (the last time I tried to count them). My accountant just photocopies pages out and sticks them in the tax return. You have to pay canal tax but there's no canal and you don't get one either.
In Germany when you change your address, you have to inform the special municipal department -Wohnanmeldegungamt- (department of names and addresses)of the change and fill in three forms. A group of students could not understand how this did not exist in Britain or USA. "What's to stop you getting on a plane, flying to the UK, robbing a bank and then flying home?" was their completely serious question and my answer: "Even German bank robbers don't normally use their identity cards or leave a forwarding address during the robbery," leaves them completely unconvinced.
Conversation with Wohnamt Official:
Official:"What is your father's occupation?"
"He's dead, what difference does it make?"
Official:"I have a space in the form for it"
"which job would you like?"
Official:"His last one..."
Official:"What religion are you?"
(proudly) "Agnostic"
Official:"You can have: Catholic, Protestant or atheist."
"But I'm an agnostic"
Official: Ticks 'atheist'
As for thoroughness, Non-German partners are often very surprised when they clean the entire house from top to bottom only to have their partner point out that they forgot the single cup they drank their post cleaning coffee in which is standing on the immaculate sink - dirty. There is no mention of all the good work, because the concept of balancing good things against negative things (one good thing outweighs loads of bad things) is rather specific to English speakers. German anthropology uses the concept of a linear measure of perfection (or distance from it!) and the streets are so clean you could eat your dinner off them. Well, almost but this is the real reason behind this action, more national character than conspiracy.
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
Lawmaker - We must ban the screwdriver as someone may hurt you with one.
Sane person - But how do I get into my PC without one?
Lawmaker - Don't bother me with such minor questions I am making the world a safer place.
Homer - Doh!
They'd better get rid of all the unrestricted porn crap and excessive advertising "technologies" (spam spyware and their friends). That would be a usefull law.
All I can say:
Scheiße oO
I mean, it could be a coincidence that those things appear at the same time.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
Don't you just love how the news just better and better every day. I don't. Are you not sick of this shit yet?
Pretty soon we won't be able to do anything anymore, can't stream audio, can't stream video, can't have downloads, can't have reversing tools, can't have adult content, can't have gambling, can't have (insert daily stupid fucking law)
We all need ONE NEW LAW against bad, stupid, ignorant, corrupt laws. And throw these fucking clueless lawmakers that don't know technology OUT! Get em out, stop voting for their ass. They stink. They're fucking everything up.
I feel for ya Germany, we got hella fucking (snooping among others) problems out here in the USA too!
Just look at our 200 year old constitution, ain't it looking good today?
We are so proud of Bush! gosh were so proud.
When approached by child reporters, the federal minister of justice, who enforced this law, showed her expertise by giving the children the am. answer to their question what she knows about browsers. Other minster offices are occupied by even lower educated persons. For instance the highest education the deputy chancellor has achieved was becoming an industrial clerk in the late 70ies. There were heavy protest from safety specialist and the software industy. However they all were in vein. The current government is trying to shoot Germany back to the medieval ages, I am afraid.
Oh dear, repeating past mistakes, closing minds, and propaganda to justify conformity, not freedom.
Crass stupidity. Existing laws already deal with such concerns. In some cultures, not educating women is acceptable and routine. So nice of them to decide what is good and what is bad, and to punish knowledge, not wrongful deed or action. A misfeasance of jurisprudence.
when weapons are made illegal only criminals will have weapons
..that's what the german government must have been thinking.
You're free to use a computer but HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS !
It's happened before
Pot meet kettle.
Except the turds that go to the lengths they do for the minimal attention they receive would just create a new account (or have a single troll account) each time anyway...
and you don't have to be logged in to post A/C!
Let me simplify this a bit more. Everything that happens online which does not require the user to log in is happening in public. Anyone can come by and see or read it. If you post something online, have no expectation of privacy regarding that something unless you put it behind lock and key (by which I mean an authentication process you are in control of). Just like in the real world; if it's not locked up, don't expect it to be private.
Further, you're not an IRC user, are you? Script-kiddies (with the same mentality of the people concealed-carry laws were created to protect us from) almost ALWAYS try to get their way by carrying their weapons where they can be seen. Immature, yes; but that doesn't make it any less common.
To paraphrase the analogy I originally made; a page requiring the user to agree to a set of terms before entry is liken to a door, a page requiring them to log in is liken to a lock. Anything behind a door is inherently safe from people who do not want to see it. Anything behind a locked door is inherently safe from those who are not allowed to see it. Anything else is happening in public view.
Yes, break-ins are possible. That's precisely why existing laws should apply; to protect those who secure their systems form those wishing to access them, rather than to protect those who go out in public looking for trouble. We have public areas, we have private areas, we have laws regarding those areas. Why make new laws when the existing ones apply just as well?
Why should someone who would be arrested for their actions, were they on the street, go free simply because it's the internet?
Simply put, if they are acting in a public area of the internet, they shouldn't.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
computer systems are not created in such a manner to have inherent safety and security.
Its an industry problem the legal system is failing to properly motivate correct where it is actually needed.
Treating the symptom is not going to cure the disease. But it will lead to other symptoms that will further be treated.
When I replied to it, it was modded Funny; therefore, a correction is due.
"No, you're eternally on-topic for your post, even though you were responding to a first post to gain a higher placement."
I'll own up to what I did, but let's not get out of hand here.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/202c.html
...
202c
Vorbereiten des Ausspähens und Abfangens von Daten
-> Preparation to spy out or intercept data.
(1) Wer eine Straftat nach 202a oder 202b vorbereitet, indem er
-> Anyone preparing a criminal offense according to 202a or 202b by
1. Passwörter oder sonstige Sicherungscodes, die den Zugang zu Daten ( 202a Abs. 2) ermöglichen, oder
-> collecting passwords or similar security codes, which allow access to data ( 202a / 2), or
2. Computerprogramme, deren Zweck die Begehung einer solchen Tat ist, herstellt, sich oder einem anderen verschafft, verkauft, einem anderen überlässt, verbreitet oder sonst zugänglich macht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu einem Jahr oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.
-> produe, supply or sell Computer Software with aims at perpetrating such offenses, is punishable by one one year in prison or a fine.
Where 202a/b basically define the crime "getting at data you are not supposed to get at"
I think the real problem is the first sentence "Anyone preparing a criminal offense according to 202a or 202b by..." which creates a circular dependency. I really don't understand even from the German text if that means that 202c 1/2 only comes into effect if you really are preparing to actually hack someone specific (202a/b) of if it's the other way around.
I don't give that law a lot of time before it is changed. (At least I hope so)
I think this whole fuss is somehwat overblown... my finacee is a german law student... pased her first state exams, about to go and do the "on the job learning" part. She's been translating the law for me (she wants to defend her country against all this fuss). Some points she made:
I understand that there's a lot of concern about how the laws will be applied, but this is hardly unique to Germany, tech crime is generally difficult for law enforcement agencies to deal with, we'll see what happens with that. My fiancee thinks that part of the problem is that most of us English speakers don't have a basic understanding of the German legal system
NB IANAL, my fiancee isn't(yet) and she's not your lawyer.todo - The developer's equivalent of confession: "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned..."
... Point him to this statement by Secretary of Justice Zypries
6 50-5639-1-p491.html#frage67105
..
.. would be necessary that you as the programmer would have to have know of the specific hacking attempt that was planned with your software.
http://www.abgeordnetenwatch.de/brigitte_zypries-
Which basically not only states the primary INTEND of the software itself has to be to commit a crime, but also
".. Erforderlich ist, dass der Täter eine eigene oder fremde Computerstraftat in Aussicht genommen hat,"
She specifically says that use of such software to test security or for educational purposes is NOT punishable.
I sure hope they clean up the text in the article itself that way, though.
1) Godwin's law is a harmful one-liner that shuts off too many people's brains. Its not a true statement; just an observation and is in no way a "law."
./ discussions.
2) Godwin's law should be forgotten. Godwin's law only serves to keep the people who need to learn lessons of history the MOST from learning anything. If you need a guideline to spot a failing discussio you clearly need some debate skills in addition to possibly needing history lessons.
3) I think Godwin's law undermines the word "law." Nice part is that it can quickly indicate your arguing with a fool and that you should stop immediately (because fools will get you to sink down to their level and beat you with their experience.)
WW2 was arguably the most widespread and influential man-made event in human history. I'm bashing Godwin's "law" and not commenting on the quality of the
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
There is no valid reason for a non-military person to be able to own a hand grenade. The grenade cannot be used for any peaceful purpose, nor for self defense, because of it's extremely high collateral damage.
I think that some Americans may take issue with attempts to stop them from using traditional fishing methods.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
If I recall correctly, the UK law has a clause to do with making it an offense to provide information 'likely to be useful to a terrorist', thereby effectively criminalising almost all knowledge... such as street maps, dictionaries, tourist guide books etc.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
How is the law written. In many places they define "burgler tools" as things like a screw driver or pry bar. But clearly it is legal to own these. It depends on how and where these are used. A screw driver in a workshop or a job site is one thing but at night near someone I don'tknow's house it another. Perhaps some of these software tools are treated the same way.
Typically laws are written in very technical terms using works with meaning that have been defined in court cases. So without knowlage of these cases you can't know the details, even if you could read German
I can't read german well enough to handle legal details. And i couldn't find a translation that was specific about the details of the german law.
But, in some reports, it sounds like the german law is forbidding the creation, use, or possession of software that can be used to hack.
God, I hope their judges have a clue when this comes to a test. Let's see: Little Timmy the Hacker used MS-Word to save a list of common passwords, so obviously MS-Word needs to be banned?
How about we pass a law that makes it illegal to own any device which can be used to kill? Then we can arrest anyone who owns a car, knife, wrench (or any decent sized tool), doughnut shop (too much cholesterol) pillow (smothering), water (drowning), or even a tall building.
Actions on the internet cannot be likened to a public square. Unless such public square is cached and searchable.
IOW, If I were to flash someone in a public square, The person that I flashed and anyone in a very limited line of sight that happened to be looking in my direction at that instant saw the event. Everyone else saw something different. If all of those folks just thought "what a perv" and went on their way, no harm done.
OTOH, if I did the same on the internet, anybody could be offened by the same act months or years later.
0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
Ich bin ein slash dotter,0 218 br>
thus immune from prosecution
due to diminished responsibility!
Phew! That was a close shave - huh?
RR
PS. Whiplash the Cowboy Monkey is not to be
confused with the Smirking Chimp Bush 43
and neither were born in Texas!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYNoQZ5djUA
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-371665686800781
SecurityFocus published an interview with a German lawyer:
Germany is passing some new laws regarding cybercrime that might affect security professionals. Federico Biancuzzi interviewed Marco Gercke, one of the experts that was invited to the parliamentary hearing, to learn more about this delicate subject. They discussed what is covered by the new laws, which areas remain in the dark, and how they might affect vulnerability disclosure and the use of common tools, such as nmap.
Read more at http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/448
She specifically says that use of such software to test security or for educational purposes is NOT punishable.
The only problem with this: It is not mentioned in the law, so who cares about her statement?
Now if the packets containg the above post travelled through the infrastructure of any nation that has criminalized Holocaust denial...yeah, that must have already been traced to its origin. Hmmm, there is one Predator drone missing from the CIA inven[Pwrrt-THuD! bagtagdragdragdrag]
Submission as evidence constitutes plaintiff and/or prosecutorial misconduct.