Linux Credit Card Re-Launches

An anonymous reader writes "The all-new Linux Fund Visa Card launched on July 24th. The Linux Fund began in 1999, and lasted until Bank of America bought MBNA and canceled the program earlier this year. Before that time the fund had distributed $100,000 a year on average. US Bank has inked a new deal to resurrect the program with new features. Currently, the project is open to ideas for supporting well-loved and community-supported software that is underfunded. The current list of supported projects includes Debian, Wikipedia, FreeGeek, Freenode, and Blender."

Comments

But how do they select projects?

[Vintermann]

I can't seem to find it in their FAQ. Supporting Free software, but no openness about the selection process? Come on.

Re:But how do they select projects?

[RuBLed]

You could nominate

Re:But how do they select projects?

[fyngyrz]

I strongly suggest nomination of the Gimp; it both has enormous potential, and could stand a significant degree of improvement as compared to other graphics mangulators.

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Vintermann]

Still, they decide, it seems. Why shouldn't there be a vote?

Re:But how do they select projects?

[somersault]

It's difficult to contribute to him though, as he's chained up in a basement somewhere. Katana wielding maniacs may be able to find and free him though.

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Nef]

Plus he's sleeping in that damn trunk all the time!

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Frosty Piss]

I strongly suggest nomination of the Gimp; it both has enormous potential...

You don't use image software professionally, do you? Clearly not. With all due respect to all of the fine OSS projects that excell, Gimp is not one of them. It's a giant rat's nest of bloated code. It needs a bottom to top rewrite (in other words, start from scratch). Not a good example. Why do people keep bringing this load of shit up as an example? It's simply not a good one.

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Andrewkov]

Frosty Piss indeed!

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Anonymous Coward]

And wich gpl imageprocessing software has your preference?

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. They could start with the name. I'm sure a few $$$ would fix that right up for them.

Or if it looks too bad, we could just give the money to other projects. I'm sure we can find one called "kook" or "nigger" that would love to have a contribution.

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Anonymous Coward]

And wich gpl imageprocessing software has your preference?

Any one that works at a professional level. Which is none at the moment, though that could change. Why don't you pull your head out of your ass? GPL is not the solution to everything, and by the way, it's not even the only Open Source license.

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Anonymous Coward]

For the same reason that Photoshop fanbois who never bothered to learn how to use any other tool keep saying that The GIMP is "insufficient for professional use", even though that's clearly not the case as many professionals use it day in and day out. Now cue the "but the gimp doesn't have feature X, and any program claiming to be for professionals must have feature X!" arguments. Oh yeah and I'm sure you're a crack programmer who's qualified to judge the code base of the Gimp (or even look at it). Because most professionals who use image software are also open source hackers.

Re:But how do they select projects?

[Anonymous Coward]

even though that's clearly not the case as many professionals use it day in and day out.

You're either high on drugs or delusional through mental illness. *Many* professionals in print and web *do not* use Gimp consistently more than other tools such as Photoshop. Most do not use Gimp at all. . I have no love for Photoshop other than it does what I want. *Most* professionals DO agree on this point. If Gimp did what *most* professionals need, *most* professionals would use it.

Re:But how do they select projects?

[sybesis]

can you support what you are saying ? I don't care about photoshop or gimp...But gimp does work very great for many things... Can you tell me wich features professional needs that Gimp don't seriously if you want to put some information here add some meat around the bones because right now...this post is just useless. Or even...if gimp is so bad why don't we bring them some money so they could put more time on their damn fucking missing features? so then we could have a rock solid image application... As far as i know, i too eard that many professional are starting to adopt gimp. as image processing application. If you can't provide any link or number to what you say... I'll just add one more thing...the community of the gimp probably can just grow more everyday as linux does. Slow but steady... Thats like saying that linux isn't use more and more as a day to day desktop Os... Just freaking stupid...

Re:But how do they select projects?

[jerez_z]

But what if your canadian and want to get one. What then?!?!

Wait...

[Eddi3]

I get to have Tux on my credit card? Where do I sign up?!

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

How is PP flamebait? They expressed excitement and desire for a particular product! Come on, isn't there anyone besides twitter who likes linux left at /.?

Wikipedia?

[niceone]

I wonder why they picked Wikipedia? All the others seem pretty geeky low visibility things that would have trouble raising non-geek funds whereas Wikipedia is pretty widely known.

Re:Wikipedia?

[HNS-I]

seriously though

Re:Wikipedia?

[owlnation]

I wonder why they picked Wikipedia? All the others seem pretty geeky low visibility things that would have trouble raising non-geek funds whereas Wikipedia is pretty widely known.

Yes, this is very questionable. Particularly with the relentless controversies that pursue Wikipedia like a pack of hounds. And will continue to do so for a long time to come.

Also, while the wiki template is open, large parts of the content are very much not open in any true sense. You can very easily get your IP address banned if some Wikinazi disagrees with your opinion, no matter who knowledgeable or correct your opinion is. Entire countries have had their IP addresses banned. This in not in any way open by my definition.

In addition the relationship with Wikipedia and the for-profit Wikia is not as distinct as anyone claims.

There are a great many open source projects that really benefit the community. There are projects that are struggling and this funding would help them. Wikipedia is not one of them.

Wikipedia shouldn't be funded by anything other than advertising (especially since a significant percentage of its content is already advertising copy anyway), or by donations from those who are so inclined to spend their money that way. I'm sure political parties and NGOs would cough up something for ensuring their views continue to be "freely" expressed. Especially the right-wing ones.

Re:Wikipedia?

[lawpoop]

Also, while the wiki template is open, large parts of the content are very much not open in any true sense. You can very easily get your IP address banned if some Wikinazi disagrees with your opinion, no matter who knowledgeable or correct your opinion is. Entire countries have had their IP addresses banned. This in not in any way open by my definition. Isn't this a problem with any open source software project? Couldn't Linus decide to ban a particular person or even a whole country? And then, isn't the open source response, "Fork it" ?

Re:Wikipedia?

[daskinil]

I agree with you in the fact that Linus has complete control of the features that enter the linux kernel and you may be subject to his priorities. However I don't know how he would ban a country from using his software? Either way, forking the linux kernel isn't a viable alternative unless you're a team of highly skilled developers who want to dedicate a large portion of their lives keeping up with the linux kernel. As I see it there's no better alternative, Open Source doesn't mean the developer is your slave or is free to let anyone taint his software with bogus code or untested modules. Although there are quite a few variations in how open source projects are managed, and some work better than others, however... I don't think it wise to criticise open source, for closed source projects can do this just as easily. I'm sure most open source projects would be willing to develop the features you need if you throw enough money their way. This is how much closed source works as well, as far as I know.

Re:Wikipedia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you say high paid IT guys?

Re:Wikipedia?

[Taxman415a]

It's pretty funny how comments bashing Wikipedia get modded up with such ease even when they have nothing insightful or informative to say. "You can very easily get your IP address banned if some Wikinazi disagrees with your opinion, no matter who knowledgeable or correct your opinion is." In addition to fulfilling Godwin's law for us, it's false. One actually has to work pretty hard and behave pretty poorly to get blocked and it's really easy to get unblocked unless you're misbehaving. It's really nearly impossible to get blocked just for disagreeing with people. Any admin that did that would get blocked themselves. The reality is you have to misbehave to get blocked.

"There are a great many open source projects that really benefit the community. There are projects that are struggling and this funding would help them. Wikipedia is not one of them." - Oh yes, Wikipedia just gets millions of hits per day because it's pure trash, thank you for letting us know that it doesn't help anyone. I do however agree there are lots of deserving projects out there and that's why this credit card program is a great idea. It lets people donate without giving up cash flow. Even if you carry no balance, merchants still pay in the range of 4% to the cc company for the service and part of that fee is what goes to this donation.

Re:Wikipedia?

[TorKlingberg]

Probably so that everyone who is interested in the card will find at lest one project they like in the list.

Re:Wikipedia?

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed]

Re:Wikipedia?

[hummassa]

I agree with you in the fact that Linus has complete control of the features that enter the linux kernel and you may be subject to his priorities. However I don't know how he would ban a country from using his software? I Understood that the parent poster was referring to banning from modifying Linux, like you can be banned from modifying WP.

Either way, forking the linux kernel isn't a viable alternative unless you're a team of highly skilled developers who want to dedicate a large portion of their lives keeping up with the linux kernel. As I see it there's no better alternative, Open Source doesn't mean the developer is your slave or is free to let anyone taint his software with bogus code or untested modules. And Wikipedia is not your slave to publish anything you think is right, even if you are pretty sure you're right and you are a PhDios in the subject at hand.

Although there are quite a few variations in how open source projects are managed, and some work better than others, however... I don't think it wise to criticise open source, for closed source projects can do this just as easily. I'm sure most open source projects would be willing to develop the features you need if you throw enough money their way. This is how much closed source works as well, as far as I know. Agreed. Anyway, owlnation had stated:

Yes, this is very questionable. Particularly with the relentless controversies that pursue Wikipedia like a pack of hounds. And will continue to do so for a long time to come.
  Also, while the wiki template is open, large parts of the content are very much not open in any true sense. You can very easily get your IP address banned if some Wikinazi disagrees with your opinion, no matter who knowledgeable or correct your opinion is. Entire countries have had their IP addresses banned. This in not in any way open by my definition. Which, IMHO, is a load of dang.
Again, my points:
1. Wikipedia is a wonderful resource;
2. It's far better and far more unbiased than any other privately-done encyclopedia;
3. I use WP since its inception, and I have yet to find a factual error or a purposeful vandalism while doing a normal, day-by-day research;
4. Even when I find some controversial information on WP, it's correctly marked;
5. It's open like Linux is open: you can always take the whole or part of WP, copy to your website and define your rules for edition. Isn't it what those other guys are doing?

Re:Wikipedia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, while the wiki template is open, large parts of the content are very much not open in any true sense. Well, while I agree with about 99.99% of what you said (and applaud you for going against slashdot groupthink for posting it), IMHO wp's "openness" is part of it's problem. The fact that "anyone can edit it" anonymously and without accountability actually opens it up to abuse, not from vandals or trolls (the Recent Changes patrol takes care of THAT fairly swiftly, barring exceptions like Siegenthaler or Fuzzy Zoller), but by partisan political groups with an agenda to push. If wikipedia has more accountability then this problem would reduce to a tolerable level. As it happens, there are certain ethnic/religious/political advocacy groups out there who pay people to edit wikipedia with a systemic bias (of course, this only affects articles related to politics, religion, history etc. not scientific or technical articles, which are generally much better on wp). Would you believe that 30% of the "sources" cited in politics/religion/history articles are from ethnic/religious supremacist websites, or attack sites, or hate sites, or pseudoscience/pseudohistory websites, or some other such bogus source?Basically nontechnical topics simply cannot be covered reliably using the wikipedia model.

You can very easily get your IP address banned if some Wikinazi disagrees with your opinion, Or, more specifically, an organized (and sometimes even well paid) group of such.

Yeah, as more people find out the problems inherent in the 'pedia they will get less grassroots funding, and will have to rely on the pressure groups that have taken parts of it over. Nobody in the grassroots level should donate a single penny to the 'pedia. I was seriously considering getting this credit card, but, until they drop wikipedia, they won't get a penny from me. I'll just donate to individual FOSS projects that need the moolah (other than wikipedia).

Re:Wikipedia?

[Bluesman]

"no matter who knowledgeable or correct your opinion is."

Opinions don't belong in encyclopedias. Facts do. Maybe this is why you've had trouble?

Re:Wikipedia?

[Matt Perry]

You can very easily get your IP address banned if some Wikinazi disagrees with your opinion, no matter who knowledgeable or correct your opinion is.

That's your problem right there. Wikipedia isn't the place for opinions. It's a place for facts. If you make a factual edit and back it up with a proper citation then there's no problem.

Re:Wikipedia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why didn't you log in? Hey Modders, PP is funny!

Re:Wikipedia?

[pimpimpim]

In addition to fulfilling Godwin's law for us, it's false.

I would like to introduce the Meta-Godwin's Law: Any online discussion will, as long as it goes on long enough, result in someone invoking Godwin's law, be it appropriate or not. The term 'nazi' is currently (and especially in slashdot) just used out of its original context. E.g. calling someone 'a grammar nazi' does not have anything to do with the Holocaust or the eradication of ethnic groups, and does not deserve an invokation of Godwin's law.

Put otherwise: grow up!

Re:Wikipedia?

[Taxman415a]

That might be marginally true for the term grammar nazi given its now widespread use. However in conjunction with the OP's failure to present facts, lots of unfounded accusations, and the appelation of nazi to create an uncommonly used term, it certainly was meant to imply the opposition are like nazis.

firefox mozilla

[operato]

i'm sure if you put mozilla firefox on a visa credit card you'd be able to raise more money. with linux you could get all the high paid IT guys whereas with mozilla firefox you'd be able to get everyone that surfs the web including high rollers in other sectors but hey, what do i know.

Re:firefox mozilla

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

Firefox already has a sugar daddy - Google.

Re:firefox mozilla

[bogie]

And that money would go to other projects and NOT Mozilla right? Because Mozilla is rolling in dough and bringing in something like $50 million+ a year. As far as I'm concerned I wouldn't use a Firefox card unless it was guaranteed that the money went to deserving projects that actually needed the money.

Re:firefox mozilla

[operato]

yea, what you said. the should use their brand for something good.

Re:wtf is this shit?

[bakana]

What about a credit card made you think of this? I'm not afraid of the atheist, I more frightened of you. Obviously you lack proper decision making skills and have lost a since of reality. You are unpreditable and probably much more dangerous than any atheist. As for the credit card idea, hey why not. It will help raise money for some organizations that need funding and are usefull to the masses, relatively speaking. I really do not use credit cards, but if I did this one wouldn't be a bad choice.

Several advantages

[iamdrscience]

Not only do you get to fund open source projects by using this credit card, but because it's a linux credit card, it's more secure, right? Personally, I'm holding out for the OpenBSD credit card, but this is a good start.

Re:Several advantages

[AskChopper]

Is it easy to switch from a regular card and get used to using this one though?!

I know how mine works and am too frightened to make the change!

Will it be compatible with my existing wallet or will I need to download a third party money clip?

Re:Several advantages

[RuBLed]

it's in your wallet.conf, edit it by 'sewdo'-ing and adjust the parameters as necessary.

Re:Several advantages

[IBBoard]

Well this is the newer version, so I'm sure the interface has been improved and brought up to date. It may even perform better and look better without requiring all of the hardware updates of the new Vis[t]a credit cards.

As for third party money clips, they are available but some of them are still in beta and were forked because someone decided it should fit twenty notes instead of fifteen.

Rest assured that even if you do have problems after the change then there'll be a kind and helpful community that will work with you to help you resolve your problem, instead of having some generic helpdesk, an extortionate phone number or a complete lack of support.

Re:Several advantages

[Anonymous Coward]

I suggest you go out to the store and buy yourself a sense of humor.

Re:Several advantages

[Gazzonyx]

Not only do you get to fund open source projects by using this credit card, but because it's a linux credit card, it's more secure, right? Personally, I'm holding out for the OpenBSD credit card, but this is a good start. Yeah, just be careful where you get your drivers from! Sorry, I'm trolling; but I couldn't let that one go when I saw the opportunity. :)

Re:Several advantages

[sukotto]

The BSD card is dead :-(

Re:Several advantages

[iamdrscience]

I sincerely hope you were trying to be funny with that post.

No sir, I was being completely serious and furthermore, I take offense at your implication that I may have been joking about a matter as serious as credit card fraud.

Re:Several advantages

[numbski]

The best things in life are free(BSD), for everything else, there's Mastercard? :D

Re:Several advantages

[Doctor Memory]

this is the newer version, so I'm sure the interface has been improved and brought up to date Yeah, but is it backwards-compatible? I've still got debt from when I used Red Cent 5.1, with the 2.0.36 exchange rate! Will they at least provide a utility to convert all my old debt? If not, then forget it.

Re:wtf is this shit?

[IBBoard]

I really do not use credit cards, but if I did this one wouldn't be a bad choice.

I only use them for online purchases as an additional layer of protection. One of the main purchase is hosting. I could buy my Linux hosting on a Linux card :)

As for the GP, I like how their non-religious people get black hoods and robes and basically turn into cultists :D It's interesting to note how religious trolls relate a lack of religion to a lack of morals. Just because morals are defined by religions doesn't mean that a lack of religion has a lack of morals. It just means it has morals decided by society instead of by some supposed supreme being.

Important Question

[DTemp]

Do well-educated geeks (the readership of this site), on average, make their credit card companies less money than the general public? I'm guessing yes.

Generally speaking, I think people on here pay off their cards and don't get their payments in late. There isn't really much of an incentive for a bank to cater to this crowd... I've had Bank of America credit cards for a couple years, put on around $50K worth of charges, and have paid $0.00 in fees. They don't like me. My parents were actually told that if they kept paying off their monthly bill in full (and thus not allowing any interest to be collected), that their card would be dropped.

But I admittedly don't know that much about the business model of a credit card issuer.

Re:Important Question

[QuantumG]

Generally speaking, I think people on here pay off their cards and don't get their payments in late. Uh huh.

Re:Important Question

[JohnFluxx]

DTemp,

    If you borrow $1000 from the bank, then the bank basically ends up $10,000 to spend.
    Check out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-905047436 2583451279

Re:Important Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know in the US, but here (BRA) the credit card gets more money from the shopping itself, even though credit card interest rates here are around 10%/month. They charge the store from 2 to 5% from each buy. The store wins on the fact that the payment is certain and no cash around reduces risk of robbery. The user gets a mean of 20days to pay the bill. The bank collects the charges from the user and the store. Of course, the one that wins the most is the bank, as always here.

Re:Important Question

[Anonymous Coward]

That is bogus. Credit card companies don't drop people with good credit very often at all -- they will hold them for the chance that someday they'll want to buy a $25,000 anniversary ring for their spouse and pay it off over time.

The interest and fees charged to less responsible/capable/cash-flow-endowed/whatever is intended to cover their risk and reduced availability of their own funds.

They make alot (most?) of their money on the per-transaction fees that are charged to the merchants.

Re:Important Question

[asc99c]

Have a look at the cost to vendors of accepting card payments, and you'll probably change your mind about whether they like you. For typical small merchants, there is a 2.5% charge on the purchase cost which the vendor pays to the credit card company. Plenty of stores will pass this directly on to the customer, especially price-sensitive online shops. No doubt the Wal-Marts are only paying closer to 0.5% due to their purchasing power, but it's still quite a bit of money.

For your $50K of charges, your credit card company will have been paid ~ $1000 in fees. The breakdown of that between all the companies involved (Bank Of America, Visa or Mastercard etc) I'm not so sure of. Unless you're constantly ringing up customer services it's fairly certain they will be making a nice profit from your custom.

Re:Important Question

[apt142]

I was going to say that geekiness does not translate to common sense. The smartest geek can be as good or as bad with money as the next person. Also, geeky people tend to get themselves in financial straights just getting educated. It takes a lot to feed a geek's brain after all. That's aside from family troubles, natural disasters, bad luck, recessions and taxes. But, you my friend have said all that in just 2 words.

Uh huh.

Can somebody mod this guy +1(Has a Clue Bat)?

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

Dunno. But the US "credit-card" thing seems very strange to most non-americans. There are credit-cards elsewhere too, sure. But essentially living off them is very uncommon, and indeed the most common visa-card in for example Norway ain't a credit-card at all, but a debit-card.

To me, it appears credit-cards are designed to milk those who are stupid, or who are unable to control their urges sufficiently to do what is wise rather than what is smart. Zero interest for the first 30-60 days, and thereafter an interest that is out of this world (frequently literally 5 to 10 times the interest the same person pays on say their mortgage) This is justified with the "no security" argument, but that falls down once you notices that credit-card companies don't actually offer you the opportunity of posting a security (say a house or car) and have your interest-rate cut back drastically.

In the US it seems rather common for people to actually have interest-carrying credit-card debt. Which asfar as I can understand must be an insane thing to do. If you're low on cash, paying 5-10 times the normal interest-rate is the *least* thing you need. So, I guess I just don't get it. Why would anyone ever be paying the insane interest-rates on a typical credit-card ?

Re:Important Question

[cb0nd]

The breakdown of those fees would probably be something like 0.1% of the purchased value for the credit card flag (Visa, Mastercard etc), 1.2% for the issuer (usually a bank, that gets the credit risk and eventual interests) and another 1.2% for the company that provides the infrastructure and processes every purchase.

Results may vary as parent already said.

Re:Important Question

[Ash Vince]

Generally speaking, I think people on here pay off their cards and don't get their payments in late. Errm, I wish.

I could go and add up all the charge I have paid on mine over the past year, but it would probably really piss me off and I would rather spend the time down the pub with my credit card behind the bar. Or I could buy some new high tech gadget.

On a more serious note there is something you have overlooked. Credit card companies also make money as a percentage of every transaction. This is charge levelled to the retailer for allowing you to buy something that you might not actually have had the money for. I believe the charge is round about 1-2 percent so you have actually made them more than you thought on that $50K.

They probably wanted to take back your parents card as they cleared the balance every month AND did not spend enough.

Re:Important Question

[Mr. Underbridge]

In the US it seems rather common for people to actually have interest-carrying credit-card debt. Which asfar as I can understand must be an insane thing to do. If you're low on cash, paying 5-10 times the normal interest-rate is the *least* thing you need. So, I guess I just don't get it. Why would anyone ever be paying the insane interest-rates on a typical credit-card ?

You answered your own question: "To me, it appears credit-cards are designed to milk those who are stupid, or who are unable to control their urges sufficiently to do what is wise rather than what is smart." That's exactly it. There are certain kinds of people in the US (and elsewhere too, I'm sure) who feel entitled to have material things. They see it as a need. Additionally, parents tend to coddle their kids - and credit card companies know it, so they give thousands of dollars in credit to college kids, knowing that Mommy and Daddy will pay it off.

And it's not limited to credit card debt. There was a great article in the Washington Post written by a journalist who (with spouse) got into a bad adjustable-rate mortgage, having failed to consider the repercussions of rate increases. Justification? His/her parents had a nice comfy house at their age, and they deserved it. Amazing, huh? Apparently life owes us a nice house, fast car, and diamond rings. Ridiculous.

I'm the opposite. I bought a house with a nice fixed rate mortgage, and did my finances myself to determine what we could afford - and subtracted a fair amount to account for emergencies. I use a credit card that I pay off every month. They keep giving me a higher credit limit, I suppose in the hopes that I'll go crazy. Won't happen.

Re:Important Question

[mr_jrt]

Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed that film, and have passed it on several times over.

Re:Important Question

[Unequivocal]

I'm a little skeptical of your claim that a CC company would even threaten to drop your parents solely b/c they pay their bills in full. You might ask them if there were additional details.

CC networks make big money on people like you (and maybe your parents if they use their card like you do). They collect around 3% of the total transaction from merchants on EVERYTHING you buy with your card. You don't see it on the bill b/c it's a hidden cost but when you buy something with a credit card, the merchant has accepted in advance a 3% fee to receive the funds via credit card. So if you put $50k on your card, merchants have been charged around $1500 in transaction fees.

This is why some the super cheap gas stations will accept only cash and charge you a dime to use your ATM card (ATM networks charge around a dime per transaction, I believe). They can reduce their gas prices by 3% and pass that savings on to you.

Re:Important Question

[db32]

Welcome to the disease that is killing our economy. People cry about inflation but this is where it comes from. Simple economics show that supply/demand affect price, and when people can purchase with large ammounts of imaginary "buy now pay later" money, they will pay higher prices for things. If noone had large ammounts of credit at their disposal cars would be cheaper, houses would be cheaper, and day to day goods would be cheaper, because noone would be willing to pay the high prices. Unfortunately even house pets can get credit cards in their names (look at the stories of those stupid preapproved cards). It allows prices to stay artificially high, it will continue this way until the credit system collapses. Companies can only work with imaginary money for so long before people start wanting their funds.

Re:Important Question

[nomadic]

To me, it appears credit-cards are designed to milk those who are stupid, or who are unable to control their urges sufficiently to do what is wise rather than what is smart. Zero interest for the first 30-60 days, and thereafter an interest that is out of this world (frequently literally 5 to 10 times the interest the same person pays on say their mortgage)

You're grossly simplifying things. I use a credit card, and pay off the balance when due. I do this for two main reasons, to build up my credit rating, and to earn various reward points for my card. What's the downside, and where's the "stupid"ity? I'm not paying any fees.

Re:Important Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm 28 years old, and have had two credit cards in my life (current being a BofA), and this seems bogus to me as well. Over that amount of time I've spent thousands of dollars on my credit cards, mostly on computer equipment, and pay it off every month. The only other thing I've had on my credit history is when I purchased a new car. I had a $13,000 loan on that car, and paid it off in less than a year. Between both of those, my FICO score is 810, and I think credit card companies would be stupid to drop someone like myself.

Re:Important Question

[Fishead]

I use my credit card for the same two reasons as you, (credit, and rewards), but also for company expenses. I have to do a fair amount of traveling for work, and there would be NO way that I would personally float my hotel room until the company paid me back.

Then there is emergency use and remote purchases. I can't say that I would always have enough cash in my chequing account to say tow my car across town and replace the starter. Any extra cash SHOULD be sent over to a savings account (2 day wait for my money), or a mutual fund (even harder to get).

Good thing my wife is a budget nazi so I (almost) never pay interest!

Re:Important Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh, you don't carry a balance. GP was explicitly referring to people who carry a balance and are thus subject to interest on their purchasers.

Re:Important Question

[nomadic]

Uhh, you don't carry a balance. GP was explicitly referring to people who carry a balance and are thus subject to interest on their purchasers.

While GP mentioned the exhorbitant interest rates that kick in if you don't pay it off on time, GP's first assertion was an unqualified "credit card users are dumb".

Re:Important Question

[Hognoxious]

Or forgetful. I don't need to carry a balance over every month, but I have a habit of forgetting to pay the darn thing. I signed up to be able to do it over teh intarwebs and I can't remember my password. What were you saying, by the way?

Re:Important Question

[RESPAWN]

...natural disasters, bad luck... Yup. That right there explained my situation after Hurricane Katrina. I just finally paid off my balance on my Bank of America card, all of it acrued post-Katrina. Being a geek doesn't necessarily translate to being financially secure.

Re:Important Question

[mgblst]

You answered your own question: "To me, it appears credit-cards are designed to milk those who are stupid, or who are unable to control their urges sufficiently to do what is wise rather than what is smart." That's exactly it. There are certain kinds of people in the US (and elsewhere too, I'm sure) who feel entitled to have material things. They see it as a need. Additionally, parents tend to coddle their kids - and credit card companies know it, so they give thousands of dollars in credit to college kids, knowing that Mommy and Daddy will pay it off.

Don't be too harsh, there is a billion dollar industry around convincing everyone that they do need these material positions. That there lives are crap without them. They use a variety of psychological manipulations to trick people into this.

Of course, the ultimate blame still lies with the consumer.

Re:Important Question

[toad3k]

I want to thank you for posting that since I don't have any mod points. That finally put together all the pieces that have been eluding me all these years.

Re:Important Question

[Anonymous Coward]

noone is not a word.

Re:Important Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, I dunno possibly one of the following?

- Long term unemployment - use CC to buy gas and groceries when your unemployment checks run out
- No health insurance and exorbitant bill to pay
- Family member dies and you a need a plane ticket to go the funeral

I really wish I was like the rest of posters here and completely financially secure and made every good financial decision! The holier than thou crap is annoying, really!

Re:Important Question

[mrzaph0d]

you're in luck, i'm an admin at the bank that you use!

send me your credit card number, the digits on the back, and your mothers maiden name (so i know its really you, there's lots of sneaky people out there), and i'll reset your password for you.

Re:Important Question

[Chandon Seldon]

If you borrow $1000 from the bank, then the bank basically ends up $10,000 to spend.

It's a little more complicated than that. If it were that simple, I'd be opening a bank tomorrow to exploit that loophole.

As it is, the biggest problem I see with the banking system is simply that I don't have a clear understanding of how it works and what the resulting consequences are. Money is pretty important - everyone should be able to have a basic understanding of it, it shouldn't be so complicated that someone who's interested and has a math background isn't clear what's going on.

Re:Important Question

[JohnFluxx]

Which is why I posted a documentary to give you the details :)

Re:Important Question

[Chandon Seldon]

That video doesn't so much present the details as introduce the issue (and hype it as a serious problem). It leaves a number of questions unanswered - specifically: Does a debt currency system actually result in a non-trivial systematic economic unbalance in favor of bankers, or do factors like inflation, publicly held bank stock, and bad debt tend to balance that out in practice? What are the political ramifications of a centrally manged banking system with the amount of government oversight that our system has? What are the legitimate other choices? What are the practical tradeoffs between them? What evaluation criteria should be used in comparing this issue to other political issues? What are the results of such an evaluation? If some other system would be better, how can we transition to that system?

Re:Important Question

[pilot1]

Don't be too harsh, there is a billion dollar industry around convincing everyone that they do need these material positions. That there lives are crap without them. They use a variety of psychological manipulations to trick people into this. There is also a billion dollar industry based entirely around convincing everyone that they don't need material possessions and ought to give a percentage of their income to this industry instead.

Re:Important Question

[JCR0X]

Yeah....I'm sure AMEX hates me. I spend around 40K a year on my Blue Cash and get about $800 back a year. No annual fee and pay off every month.. They call me offering their high annual feel platinum card every other month!

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

Fixed-rate makes sense as "insurance" against unpleasant surprises. I agree. But it's expensive insurance (on the average you end up paying more than a variable-interest loan, and you aren't free to move whenever you want. Well, you are, but if interest has been falling, and you want to move, you'll have to cover the banks loss (as compared to what they'd earned if you stayed)

Thus the standard advice for all insurance applies: Only get it if you need it. That is, if you cannot afford to cover the potential loss by yourself. We've got floating interest. But that is only because we could afford to pay approximately double the interest we pay today, and that just ain't likely. (interest would have to grow quickly too to make trouble, because in a few years we'll have paid back a lot and will thus be able to handle even higher interest, if it should be needed)

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

Read what I'm writing please. You are not making your credit-card company any money. So obviously you're not the kind of customer they want. (or the kind for which their offers are designed)

What is stupid is using the card in the way the companies *obviously* hope that you'll use it: in such a way that you have to pay their insane interest-rates. Obviously a lot of people must be doing that, otherwise the credit-card companies would have to revise their business-plan.

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

By long term unemployment, the *last* thing you want to do is start living off credit. The minute you do, you're in deep shit. If there's not enough money to pay for gas or groceries this month. How are there going to be enough for gas, groceries *AND* insanely high interest next month ?

You really have only two choices. Raise income, or cut costs. Probably both. If you're unemployed, odds are you don't *NEED* gas to survive, hell, odds are you don't *NEED* owning a car at all. Sell it. Yes it sucks. But I promise you, if you instead keep the car, and pay for it with credit-cards, the end-result is going to suck a lot more.

A plane-ticket is not expensive. You'd need to have a large family, or have someone die *far* away for the tickets to cost more than a couple thousand. Unexpected costs in the range of ~$1000 come regularily (probably 2-3 times a decade) for a family. That's the sort of money you should have for precisely that kind of circumstances. Saving it up beforehand is *easier* than paying it off afterwards, the difference is you *get* interest rather than *paying* interest. This is *especially* true if you own NOTHING valuable (like a car or house), if you *do* own one of those things, you can get a loan with that object as safety, and pay a small fraction of the interest that credit-card-companies charge.

The health-insurance thing is stupidity. Nobody should be without coverage. Indeed, in a sane country nobody would be without it. (but that's not the individual Americans fault, unless they voted for such politicians or didn't vote at all, in which case they've got themselves to blame) In Norway for example, there are precisely 1 condition for full coverage 1) Legally in the country for a (planned or actual) period longer than a year. That's it. If you're an illegal immigrant you'll get basic healthcare too, but you don't qualify for full coverage in that case, nobody will pay, for example, your reproductive therapy if you're an illegal immigrant.

  Still, I'm willing to concede that under US circumstances, borrowing to cover health-expenses may be the best choice (even though it's a sucky choice) but the same advice applies here: credit-card debt is the worst possible type of debt. If you've got any kind of security whatsoever you can get a loan at perhaps a quarter the interest-rate. Otherwise, selling whatever you don't *really* need is superior to credit-card-debt in most of the cases.

The thing is, either you've got a high income, and will be able to quickly pay-off the high medical credit-card-debt. In this case you should've had health-insurance and a couple thousand saved up already. Or you're poor and don't own anything, in which case you will have *HELL* of a problem ever getting out of the swamp you insert yourself in by starting to live off credit-cards.

Most of the Americans that have outstanding interest-bearing credit-card debt aren't in any of these categories though. They're more commonly simply unable to buy in 6 months the object of desire which they want *NOW*.

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

Why would people cry about inflation, isn't US inflation in the low single-digits, like 2-3% or so a year ?

I don't think the rest of your theory holds water. True, credit allows people to pay more *now* for items than they would otherwise be able to. *But* it also forces them to pay less *later* for stuff than they otherwise, because later they'll effectivly have a lower net-income since parts of the income will go to paying interest on stuff they bougth earlier.

I don't see how a person buying a TV for $3000 now, and thereafter reducing his spendings by $5000 over the next 4 years stimulates prices more than a person that *doesn't* buy a TV for $3000 now, but instead buys a TV for $5000 in 3 years. (less than 4 because he *gets* interest rather than paying it, and also doesn't pay various fees etc)

Credit gives you, overall, *less* to spend. Not more. Because when you use credit, you'll pay back what you borrowed, plus interest.

That means credit only makes sense when $X now *really* is more worth to you than $x++ later. This is sometimes the case. Buying a house for a quarter million last year was more worth to me than having aproximately $350K 15 years later, because it means my family have somewhere to live for those 15 years (and that is worth paying $150K for, renting similar housing would be more expensive)

Re:Important Question

[mgblst]

There is also a billion dollar industry based entirely around convincing everyone that they don't need material possessions and ought to give a percentage of their income to this industry instead.

What the hell are you talking about?

Re:Important Question

[db32]

That only is true if the credit companies stop issuing cards to people. The reality is people get another card, transfer the balance, keep moving. Until the bankruptcy of course. The problem is people believe $100/mo for 48 months is a better deal than $200/mo for 12 months because its $100 less per month. People don't generally think in terms of how much interest they are paying, they think in terms of monthly payments. Turn on the radio, in some place/time slots it is almost impossible to go more than 30 minutes without hearing another ad for a debt consolidation agency or some other kind harded group trying to get you out of debt fast.

The reason it affects prices is because of demand. There is enough demand and floating credit to support a $3000 TV. I personally won't purchase that TV until its at least down to $1500 because I am going to pay cash and not wind up paying $5000 for a $3000 TV that will be worth $500 by the time it is paid off using some 25% interest rate card.

I think you are operating on the theory that people actually understand what you said that credit means you have less money to spend. 90% of people don't understand that concept, they don't understand they are paying it back at rates around 15-25% interest. They only understand they got their super wizbang plus megathing for only $59.99/month! They don't understand that extending their payments to infinity and beyond to lower the payment causes them to pay EVEN MORE in interest, they just understand the painful monthly payment is smaller. Most people don't think in the long term, they think in the immediate now. It winds up screwing people that DO get it because now that $1500 TV has a $3000 price tag on it because the majority of fools will slap that on their card and pay $80/month for the rest of eternity to pay for it.

Re:Important Question

[db32]

I do want to point out that I think we are both correct on this because it is all relative to what *now* and *later* means. I don't believe for one second that the current way of things will last long, look at the rise in bankrupcy and the laws the credit companies are lobbying to try and stop it from happening so they can squeeze blood from stones. The *later* that you speak of is coming, where the recoil happens, where people realize they dug themselves into unrealistic debt and the collapse comes. I don't think it will be some earth shattering global economic collapse or anything, but I think things will be really rough for a while as things have to restabalize in reality instead of fantasy credit spending land.

Look at modern American business, look at the scandals, the corruption, and all the stupid business decisions questing for immediate spikes in quarterly profits instead of long term slow growth. Arther Anderson, THE accounting firm, held the belief "our loyalty lies to the auditors, not to our customers" and they got HUGE, the largest and most respected firm because you could be sure they would do things right. Then, the founder is gone, the next generation is at the helm, and then come the scandals, lots of them, cooking the books to show unrealistic profits on the short term, ultimately the destruction of the largest and most respected accounting firm over stupid scandles designed to inflate quarterly profits. Lately you can catch Warren Buffet talking about this, how these stupid attempts to boost immediate profits hurt long term profits. It really is interesting to listen to him talk about business if you haven't caught any of his talks. The most entertaining is when he talks about how he doesn't really desire money, he just really likes the business game, and money is how you keep score. People like that are FAR more important to the survival of our economy than the people who really are just trying to chase the dollar.

Re:Important Question

[pilot1]

organized religion?

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

This argument would hold true if Americans, as a group, where actually currently spending more money than you're earning. You are however not. The net-savings rate is still positive.

Put differently, the total spendings for USA for 2006 (or any recent year) is *lower* than total earnings for USA for 2006. True true, most other countries have a better saving-rate than you do, but even with you it's still positive.

Some people for sure spend more than they earn, but others earn more than they spend. (generally young people buying their first house/car etc spend more than they earn, older people spend less than they earn, mainly paying back debt)

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

This logic doesn't work.

True, true, the person spending $3000 now, and thereafter paying $100/month spends a bit more this month than he otherwise would. But surely you're not saying that credit-card-use is such a new phenomenon that currently everyone is in this phase. Remember, paying back the $3000 will take him something like 4-5 years at $100, at a total cost in the $5000-$6000 range, this means it only takes 2.5 years for his spendings to neutralise, therafter they drop.

Put differently, compared over a period *shorter* than 2.5 years, the person will appear to spend more than one not using credit. Over any period more than 2.5 years long, he'll be spending less.

2.5 years ain't a long time. Americans have been wild with credit-cards for a lot longer than that.

Re:Important Question

[db32]

Go look at what the average debt is, go look at the rise in bankruptcy. A SANE American does the math just like you said. They understand the eventual payback. The AVERAGE American is spending themselves into a fake middleclass lifestyle. It is not a sudden new phase. Look at the trends. The average debt per person is climbing considerably faster than anything inflation could account for.

Re:Important Question

[db32]

Uhm, all the charts I have seen show the average American saves negative dollars per year. I have never seen anything stating that our savings rate was positive. That is the problem, there is a very large section of our society purchasing a lifestyle well above their means and its kinda screwing the whole thing up.

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

Sure. Many are. But the average aren't. That's my point. For every dollar spent above means, there's more than another dollar spent under means.

Your official "savings-rate" is somewhat silly, because it is only net-income minus spendings, so it ignores capitalgains. For example, if I have $10K in stocks, which grow to $12K during the year, earn (netto)$50K and spend $51K the so-called "savings-rate" will say I'm at -2%, despite the fact that I'm actually 2% *richer* at the end of the year than I was at the start of the year. (conversely, interest paid, such as on credit-cards *ARE* counted, go figure)

We don't really disagree that much, I *do* agree that living off debt is a completely silly thing to do. I do however think it hurts the ones doing it more than the others. Like I said, it only takes 2-3 years for the effect to be negative, and most of us are gonna be around significantly longer than that.

Personally we save around 25% of our (net) income, in addition to a few percents put aside for retirement by my employer. The savings are shared aproximately 50/50 between paying off the mortgage and investing in a globally diversified stock-portofolio. (portofolio makes it sound like a big deal, it's not, we're not rich (yet!)) I'm figuring, if the bust comes, I'll be in a good position to buy when everyone wants to sell. That is an enjoyable position to be in.

Savings are low in Norway too, compared to a few years ago. Still, low in this case means a net-savings rate of aproximately 5%, so I guess we're in greener territory than you guys. It helps that nearly all established families in norway own a house or apartment, even the ones who aren't "saving" as such generally are atleast slowly paying off the mortgage.

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

Average debt ain't the entire picture though. If the debt is just living-costs, then sure, you're worse off. But if the debts are matched by an increase in activa, it's not nessecarily a bad thing.

If I buy a house for $500K, pay $100K with cash and borrow the rest, then my debt jump by $400K, but I'm no poorer than I was before the transaction.

I guess that's why it's so scary to many if the US housing-market crashes. It'll leave many people with the debt, but *without* the value.

Re:Important Question

[Anonymous Coward]

"My parents were actually told that if they kept paying off their monthly bill in full (and thus not allowing any interest to be collected), that their card would be dropped."

Uhm, I've nearly never carried a balance on cards (and when I have, only when there has been special balance transfer options, usually below 3%, often at 0% for 6 mos. or a year... in fact for about a year I ran up $10K on 0% no transfer fee 6 month deals and put all the money in month-long CDs, just to make free money).

Anyway, the point is the 3 top cards I use are always payed off in full. The credit card companies still make their 3%+ off of each purchase and I get my .5-1%.

I'd love to hear what the card/issuing bank was that told you parents this. I don't buy it for a minute, actually.

Re:Important Question

[db32]

I don't know that any of the stuff I have looked at covers housing because people do mistakenly treat that as an investment. Most of what I have looked at covered the credit card/personal/car loan stuff. You know that payday loans can charge up to 385% interest in some places, and frequently do. That is a never ending cycle of loss right there. I have seen young kids get swindled into 19-80% loans on their first cars. Most of the credit cards I see are 19-25% unless you have stellar credit already and then you might get 9-12%

They keep lowering interest rates to make it easy to borrow to get people to spend money they don't have, to try and keep the economy moving forward. It was the stupid quest that immediate quarterly profits that drove us here, and the abandonment of the idea that slow growth and long term stability were better. Get rich quick! Buy now pay later! If a company shows an unfavorable quarter the investors jump ship and rush to the new big thing. See the tech bubble. More and more investors are just dumb get rich quick fools throwing money whichever direction the wind blows.

Re:Important Question

[db32]

I think it is a different mentality altogether that causes it. We live in capitalism run amok. Government regulation causes more problems than it solves, and the market can't behave anything like it should so long as the rich n powerful types are allowed to act above the law. Greed and Apathy. The problem with pricing is that credit artificially allows people to pay higher prices. They get new cards, they transfer balances, they get home equity loans and drain all the value back out of their house. Then if they don't stop before they can't make the monthly payments they go bankrupt and start the process over again. Poor credit scores should stop you from getting credit, it doesnt, it just gets you credit at insane interest rates. Given how poor people understand basic math these days...well...you can see where that goes. It just gives em a bigger shovel to start digging their new hole.

While I think you are correct in the idea that the increased spending is limited by the mathmatical reality that they can only overspend, I disagree with the term of effect being 2-3 years. That would be the case if it was only the TV they did that with. But they did it with the TV, the 2 cars, the new appliances, the computers, etc, etc, etc... Now its $70,000 or more in debt. Credit cards and loans aren't really a new phenomena. How easy they are to get because they keep lowering the bar to try to keep fueling an economy demanding instant and infinite quarterly returns that is running on fumes. The problem is magnified by the fact that so much of the money goes overseas because we have been destroying our own industrial capabilities in favor of offshoring for..drum roll....immediate quarterly improvements instead of long term stability. We be hosed.

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

Housing is an investment in the sense that owning a house gives you a very significant low-interest buffer-zone for that rainy day. If you *do* suddenly need a larger amount of cash, owning a house means you can borrow it cheaply.

If you are rigth, by the way, you can yourself get rich by putting your money where your mouth is. If, as you say, people "jump ship" after a bad quarter more than is justified from a rational long-term perspective. Then you should make a point of buying stock 2 days after a company announces a bad quarter. If you are correct, this should net you a nice profit long-term.

I'm 100% in agreement with you that most people are financial idiots. So what ? That's nothing new. Indeed I suspect it was even more so in the 80ies than it is now. And it's generally speaking a *good* thing for those of us who aren't. If people sell things that are really valuable for a too low price because of a bad quarter: buy it ! If people are willing to pay too high a price for something because of a really good quarter, sell it to them !

Similar thinking applies to most other areas. If people are willing to pay more, and do infact pay more, for LCD-tvs than they are worth, buy stock in whoever produces, distributes and retail them. If someone is paying overprice, someone else is making a killing, rigth ?

Stock can even be used as insurance. Are you vulnerable to increases in gas-price ? Buy stock in a oil-company ! If the price of oil goes up, sure you'll pay more for gas. But you'll be able to since your stock will go up. Don't like rain ? Buy stock in a hydro power-plant. It won't keep you dry, but it's more pleasant with rain when you can imagine it's raining cent-coins on you. (I did, AFK.OL tripled its share-price in the last 3 years, I still don't like rain though :-))

Re:Important Question

[db32]

To a degree the stock thing works but it depends on the company. Which really just boils down to doing research instead of just watching prices rise and fall. The problem is, say that company announces a bad quarter, can that company survive a bunch of people dumping their stock? Can they recover from the stigma of a bad quarter? Because infinite growth quarterly profits are what is being demanded by all these get rich quick investors. This nonsense behavior is what leads all these companies to cook books or otherwise skew their reporting. The real problem lies in having so much based on imaginary money, that if something bad were to happen it could trigger a run on the system. Fear rules us right now, look at the paranoia in the political realm of crying for government protection from anything offensive down to terrorist boogeymen. The first to call their debts is the most likely to actually get their money back. But then anyone who owes them imaginary money has to call their debts, and so on down the line. You can bet your ass that it is going to be the middle class and below that feel the pain of that one.

This isn't to say all debt is a bad thing. Look at the regulations on how banks can loan money to "create wealth" and compare that to the credit companies. Not that any system is fool proof, but the banks by and large have had more stability because it happened once and they learned some lessons in how to try to avoid it again. Another great depression would be hell for everyone here except for the few that can afford to bail out and leave.

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

The thing is, stock-price doesn't have any direct influence on day-to-day running of a company whatsoever. It matters if you want to raise capital for new investments, because a high market-cap will let you raise more money for a smaller dillution of the current shareholders, but other than that the influence is sligth.

If the companys "bad quarter" is in the red, then it depends on how soon they can get back in the black, and the size of their war-coffers. If they're really likeky to go bankrupt before they manage to return to black, then they *deserve* the low stock-price.

Re:Important Question

[db32]

I don't really mean they go under completely because of that directly. I mean the loss in capital puts their competitors ahead and they may just get shut out of the market. Competition isn't about quality/price as much these days it seems, and more about who games the system the best.

Re:Important Question

[Eivind]

My point was, the "loss of capital" doesn't generally put their competitors ahead. Remember, the *owners* are the ones who hold the stock, they are the ones who benefit (primarily) when the stock go up. The company itself generally doesn't own much own stock, and isn't really influenced by changes in the stock-price.

Just get a credit card that gives YOU cash...

[iamacat]

And then make it a point to donate a few hundred/year to your favorite Linux developer, with a personal check in snail mail. This way you control exactly how much you want to give to each cause and also that every cent goes directly to the person writing code, with no administrative overhead. Most probably no taxes also, but lets keep this quiet...

Re:Just get a credit card that gives YOU cash...

[LaTechTech]

I would have to make sure it says "For Tequila" in the memo or maybe "For good beer and pizza".

Re:Just get a credit card that gives YOU cash...

[iamacat]

Also "For getting laid"?

Re:Just get a credit card that gives YOU cash...

[larry bagina]

"for soap and a haircut".

Re:Just get a credit card that gives YOU cash...

[Anonymous Coward]

A credit card is all about convenience...

If I can get and use a credit card that helps out linux, then sign me up. I don't have time to send individual contributions to umpteen projects, at various times, etc. Credit card is the way to go. But yes, I do hope that the company in questions is 'open' about how much they make, how much they contribute to projects, which projects, etc.

Re:Just get a credit card that gives YOU cash...

[dmandel]

Actually, Linux Fund recommends this. Please give money directly to Open Source projects whenever possible. However, Linux Fund is an option that works well in some cases. It isn't always easy finding projects to fund or actually contacting and sending money to some of the projects one would like to fund. Linux Fund takes care of these and other problems as well. Linux Fund is not a good replacement for directly funding Open Source projects and this is why Linux Fund has never asked for donations in the past and never will unless it is for a specific program or project that can not be funded directly. On the other hand, Linux Fund is an excellent addition to one's Open Source giving program.

David Mandel

And for us non-USians?

[Svenne]

It sounds interesting and I'd like to participate, but unfortunately this is only available for citizens of the United States.

Has anyone seen or heard of anything similar for us Europeans?

Re:And for us non-USians?

[monsted]

Well, at least one danish bank allows you to put any image on your credit card. One guy put the Goatse Halloween pumpkin on his.

Jyske Bank (Bank of Jutland) is one place that offers this service, at $10 per card.

Re:And for us non-USians?

[pinkstuff]

I will second that, I would love a similar card here in New Zealand. It would almost be worth buying Vista on it for a bit of a laugh. Actually, I can't believe I just said 'buy' and 'Vista' in the same sentence, I take it back!

Great banks there

[Anonymous Coward]

Bank of America? MBNA?

No thanks!

Re:Great banks there

[MoOsEb0y]

BoA bought out the original MBNA bank who issued the first set of cards and then proceeded to rewrite (in a very bad way) the terms of service. I now have unactivated chase student CCs used to get free lunches for signing up with better terms. Now, I have a different card with 1.5% cash back which I then contribute to my kidney fund.

Why trust them?

[NovaX]

They don't explain why, as a previous card holder, I should go back. I held the original card from 1999 (my first card, when leaving for college) until a few weeks ago when my replacement (non-branded version) came. The only difference I see so far is a less attractive card and that they switched from MBNA (now BoA) to US Bank for the United States. Since they failed for years to actually donate the funds contributed, the most satasfaction I got out of the card was when a waitress would complement that it was cute.

On their website, they gloss over the past and don't offer a reason why I should trust them again. I'm inclined to believe that new management will help ensure proactive measures are taken, but I'm also tempted to go reward some other charity.

Re:Why trust them?

[YoungHack]

> On their website, they gloss over the past and don't offer a reason why I should trust them again. I'm inclined to believe that new management will help ensure proactive measures are taken, but I'm also tempted to go reward some other charity.

That is so true. I just checked my desk drawer to see that I still had my Linux Fund card, but I'm totally switched to a rewards card and I'm not likely to change back unless my new company really pisses me off.

Re:Why trust them?

[TimFreeman]

They don't explain why, as a previous card holder, I should go back.

I haven't read their entire website, so I can't say what they do and don't explain.

Wikipedia claims that they have changed management since the time they failed to distribute their contributions. The executive director then is not listed as a board member or officer now. So if that's the sort of charity you want to do, it's plausible that linuxfund is a good way to do it.

Re:Why trust them?

[morgan_greywolf]

Because you don't need to. If you want to give to a deserving open source project (like, say, mine ;), then just set aside a few a dollars and donate through Sourceforge, Paypal, or whatever that project has setup to receive donations. Or just send some pizza to Tridge. I hear he loves pizza.

But I still have mine

[parodyca]

I'm still using my Tux Mastercard. What does all this mean to those of us in Canada who apparently weren't affecting by LinuxFund blowing up in the States?

Re:But I still have mine

[hansonc]

If your card was originally issued by MBNA and was bought up by Bank of America, the funds you think you're giving to the Linux fund are really just going into the pockets of BoA.

Re:But I still have mine

[scotch51]

Actually, use of the Canadian MBNA/BofA Linux Fund Master Card continues to support F/OSS through the Linux Fund. In logic unique to American Banking, when the USA MBNA/BofA cut The Linux Fund agreement, the Canadian agreement was not affected. If your Tux Master Card bills come from the USA, funds stopped flowing to The Linux Fund on July 1. In Canada however, they continue.

Big projects only?

[blindcoder]

Debian, Wikipedia, FreeGeek, Freenode, and Blender

So the money goes to projects that already have a big financial supporting community?
Wikipedias fundraiser usually works great, no? So does Freenodes. Blender has been 'bought into freedom'.

So, realistically speaking. How are the chances of small, say 1-5 people, projects getting support to actually be able to have a nice booth at a Linux Fair or similiar?

con job.

[timmarhy]

This is a big con. why not donate directly instead of having your "donations" in the form of interest skimmed by the bank.

Re:con job.

[One Childish N00b]

Because people are very difficult to part from their money for donations, even OSS people donating to OSS projects. It's human nature, we just don't like parting with the green. Something like this negates that factor, and also brings what would be fewer, smaller donations to more widespread organizations together into big lump sums directed at a few projects. Whether or not you consider that a good thing is down to you, but it can't be a bad thing for the organizations involved, or for Linux, to have a few of it's flagship projects (Blender is one of the premier examples of sophisticated, top-class software for Linux, and should get more mainstream/tech press) funded and focussed on improving still further.

If you have a pet project you want to keep donating to, this isn't going to stop you, and it isn't going to stop you from talking your friends into donating to your favourite OSS project. It might, however, garner a fair number of people who, for whatever reason, do not donate directly into helping support OSS, both in terms of payment and profile.

Re:con job.

[Braino420]

Umm, because it doesn't cost you any money (out of pocket) when you "donate" through the card.

Addition to supported projects

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcomed addition to supported projects would be the FreeBeer project.

Re:Way to miss the joke

[HNS-I]

I really missed the part about PHP: the aspx-ripoff that was modified by satan to do black magic.

Debt is DUMB. Donate directly--don't use this card

[gblues]

OK, so you want to help out the F/OSS community, that's great. If you've got the money to contribute, contribute. Don't waste your time supporting others with consumer debt. With the infinitesimally small returns these cards' so-called "rewards" programs generate, you could contribute the same amount or more directly, spend less money overall, and NOT be in debt to someone else.

I'm also going debunk the "geeks are smart enough to pay off their balance each month" myth. Bullshit. Personal finance is 80% behavior, and only 20% head knowledge. Being smart doesn't mean you'll win. There are plenty of brilliant folks out there that are absolute idiots with their money.

Nathan

Ugly

[Zebedeu]

Aww man, I was thinking that it was a Good Idea(tm), but did it have to be so ugly?
I don't want to be on a date and pull out a credit card with a cartoon penguin and a yellow URL on it!

I mean, they still could have the penguin (and maybe the URL) in there, but I'm sure that with those 100,000$/year, they could hire a real designer to make it look classy.

Anyway, it looks like it's only for the US and Canada, so I couldn't get one either way, but if it ever makes it to this side of the pond, I really hope that there's a redesign, because the idea is good and I would love to get one.

Yeah but...

[ZiggyStardust1984]

does it runs linux? Can't belive no one asked...

Re:Yeah but...

[walter_f]

does it runs linux?

Obviously not, but perhaps

"Of course it runs NetBSD".

http://www.netbsd.org/

(That said, Debian running here anyway...)

Where can I find some infos?

[Tabernaque86]

Like interest rate, annual fees, and other important things to know?

I'd love to get me one of these. My other "free-money card" has just about reached it's maximum limit, so it's about time I start looking for a new one.

Sound good for lunch meeting with microsoft rep.

[Bearhouse]

Bottle of wine, $25
Lunch for two, $86
Face on microserf's face when you whip out linux card to pay....priceless

giving in/up to the 'cloud shortage'???

[Anonymous Coward]

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2002/06/13240.sht ml

we're watching right now as they spray phoney clouds over our city. yikes almighty. took some pictures of the 'trail', & the 'lovely' 'rainbow' around the sun.

it must not be that good for US or the whoreabull corepirate nazi execrable would be bragging about it.

see you there?

Re:wtf is this shit?

[zig007]

So if you weren't religious, you would do these things? Automatically? BTW, those are interesting examples of typical atheist behaviour you mention there. I'd know, since I am an atheist(which i became I choose between that and supporting the devil). And you forgot some other things we do: * We start wars over atheistic issues. * We suppress other flavors of atheism. * We expect other to follow inapplicable, ancient atheist laws. I am sure there are many other things i have forgotten.

Re:Way to miss the joke

[zig007]

I also thought so first. But i don't think so. If it was a joke, it was a really crappy one.

I stoped using mine

[YGingras]

Because MBNA gives so much money to other causes that are detrimental to freedom or information.

Re:I stoped using mine

[EmagGeek]

You mean causes like making sure people actually pay back the money they promise to pay back when they borrow it? I don't see a problem with that.

Re:Sound good for lunch meeting with microsoft rep

[ArcadeX]

I've always made them pay, couple more expensive tickets, and I'll have recovered my money from them spent up to windows 3.1...

Missing the point

[Redneck Hacker]

I think the point of this is that if you're going to be using a credit card either way, then you might as well support FOSS in the process. It's certainly not meant as a substitute for direct donations, and anyone who doesn't use a credit card shouldn't start using one for this reason alone.

DANGER!!!

[6Yankee]

My other "free-money card" has just about reached it's maximum limit, so it's about time I start looking for a new one.

"Free money". Don't even think it.

Please tell me you want a new one with a better interest rate so that you can transfer everything off the existing card and close it down. And that you'll have the willpower to actually do the transfer once that nice shiny new card arrives, because it won't work unless you do it immediately and shred the cards, both of them. I tried that a couple of times, and I didn't have the willpower - I'd maxed out five cards by the time I got out of uni, and was taking cash out on one to pay the next. I'm still clearing up the mess over five years later.

Really. Don't go there.

I did apply for another card recently, but as soon as the acceptance letter arrived (i.e., before I even had the plastic) I called them up, reduced the credit limit to a mere GBP100, and set up a direct debit to clear the balance every month - that's my "order stuff online" card. I cost them money. They deserve it, for trying to sucker me with over nine grand in credit just for filling in a bit of paper.

I've chopped up all my other cards (surprisingly cathartic!) and paid off all but two of them, and one of those will be gone by Christmas. The other one's going to take a couple of years, but I managed to get it down from 18.5% to 5%. Things are going in the right direction now, but not before I found myself deciding whether to skip the country or kill myself.

Really, no matter how badly you may want to support the causes, or how cute the penguin is, don't do this unless you know exactly what you're getting into. And if they offer you a ridiculously high credit limit, for heaven's sake call them and have it lowered - don't leave it "just in case I need it" because you will "need" it. And then they'll up it. And you'll "need" that. Then they'll jack up the interest rate. Believe me, I know.

Re:DANGER!!!

[LearnToSpell]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ I am Jack's Slashdot account.

Re:DANGER!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like I don't feel that it is true that the "typical" geek always pays off their card, I don't feel that your case is in any way typical either.

Not everyone that uses cocaine becomes a cokewhore. Likewise, not everyone that uses a credit card has a problem with it. I have had a credit card for 10 years now, and the "free money" kind for about 5, and while I doubt that AMEX is losing money on me, since they double dip on the merchants also, I have paid out maybe $20 in finance charges, and received back about $400 in gift certificates.

It is regrettable that you got yourself into such a deep hole, but your situation is in no way common, and you shouldn't blame the credit card company for "suckering you" into a credit limit.

Re:DANGER!!!

[6Yankee]

It is regrettable that you got yourself into such a deep hole, but your situation is in no way common

That's hilarious. So that's why I owe less than the UK average.

and you shouldn't blame the credit card company for "suckering you" into a credit limit.

I blame myself, actually. But what else is this business about, if it isn't about maximising the amount of interest they can charge? I know far more about this stuff than pretty much everyone I meet, always have - so if I can get into such a mess, what do you think Joe Average is going to do when he sees "Credit limit: £9,000"? "Ooh, free money!" And they'll keep upping that limit every time he gets near it, up, up, up, till he can't afford the minimum repayment. Do you think that's ethical? I sure as hell don't.

Yes, he shouldn't have been so stupid (and nor should I). Yes, people should understand what they're agreeing to before they sign, but they don't, and these companies are growing fat off of it. That, to me, is exactly the sort of thing a government is there to prevent. There should be legislation in place:

• Forcing companies to do a proper assessment before setting a credit limit, based on ability to pay from regular income, not on the company's ability to repossess, and with a hard upper limit of x% of declared annual income, where x is a small number
• Preventing automatic credit limit increases, replacing these with an offer of an increase and requiring acceptance in writing, with the customer being required to acknowledge the increase in their personal risk in clear, unambiguous language
• Requiring companies to include in statements, at least six-monthly, calculations of how long the debt will take to be cleared and how much interest will be charged, if only the minimum payment is made, and for appropriate amounts over the minimum
• Banning, outright, increases in the interest charged on existing balances (ever had your rate jacked up by 4% overnight?), except for termination of limited-time promotional rates

On top of that, people should be getting taught about how these things work, in high school - and again in their first year at university, before they start racking up those massive debts. Hell, even if the tabloid rags plastered "SCAM" across their pages and explained it in tabloid terms, some people would learn from it.

Credit cards have their place, and people need to wise up, but you can't tell me that the industry doesn't thrive on ignorance.

Re:DANGER!!!

[6Yankee]

Heh. What if I buy the explosives on my Visa card, do I get extra irony points? :)

And on a similar note the Red Cross...

[mazanoid]

Has partnered with Microsoft. Now when you donate blood for free, which they'll sell to hospitals for as much as 380$/pint, they will donate a full 1% to the Save Vista Microsoft fund. Your blood donor card will now have a Vista logo on it to boot.

And the world quietly rejoiced, knowing that a life had been saved, Red Cross got more money to pay their 10 mil/year execs (and proctor and gamble lawsuit lawyers), and microsoft got a laughable pittance for a laughable product.

Linux Fund is good

[Salsaman]

I got a donation from LinuxFund a couple of years ago to help with my development of LiVES. At the time it was very useful, though of course that money has long since run out.

To all those people saying "why give money to LinuxFund, why not donate directly ?", well...go ahead...why don`t you donate to my project ? The fact is that people hardly ever donate at all, and I`d rather have a couple of thousand dollars from LinuxFund in one go, than get $20 a month or whatever through personal donations.

Ah! But the question is..

[anilg]

... software that is underfunded. The current list of supported projects includes Debian, Wikipedia, FreeGeek, Freenode, and Blender.

Will it blend?

"Variable" interest rate up to (gasp) 21%????

[dpbsmith]

According to the terms and conditions:

They add "3.99% to 12.99%" to the prime rate (which, itself, varies).

They don't say how exactly they will decide to "vary" that number... within that very wide range.

All of my past experience suggests... and recent news stories about mortgages ought to reinforce... that anything that called "variable" does, by gosh, vary. If they say they can go up to 12.99% above prime, you can bet your bippy that some fine day they will "vary" it. And of all the numbers in that range to vary it to, why would they vary it to 12.99%? I would, if I were them.

And I'll bet there's fine print that says they can change the rules at any time.

No, I take that back. There's bold print that says "Account and Cardmember Agreement terms are not guaranteed for any period of time, we may change all terms, including APRs and fees, in accordance with the Cardmember Agreement and applicable law."

That probably means they could even renege on that first no-interest teaser year.

This also fits my observations to date, which is that not yet have I seen one of these "affinity" cards that offered even a halfway-decent deal. All the ones I've seen, you pay the credit card company through the nose, and your charity gets a pittance.

Re:"Variable" interest rate up to (gasp) 21%????

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends mostly on your credit rating.

You see, there isn't just one setup they offer, but several model "offers" within the scope of that one card.

Is your credit score pushing 800? Expect the low end of the interest range, you're a good risk.
Is your credit score pushing 600? Good luck even getting approved; unlike many other banks, US Bank is fairly risk adverse in their credit portfolio. (something stock analysts ding them on)

Re:Way to miss the joke

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it was a troll from Adequacy, wasn't it?

12.24 or 14.24 minimum interest

[nightsweat]

Bankrate.com shows Pulaski Bank & Trust offering a 7.99% card.

Yes, I recognize Pulaski doesn't donate money to Linux, but if you carry a balance, save yourself the money and donate directly to the project you want to support.

If you don't carry a balance and never intend to, these rewards cards are probably just as good as any.

Re:Sound good for lunch meeting with microsoft rep

[Lumpy]

Holy crap!

Microsoft REPS force you to pay for lunch? What is wrong with IT managers today? do they like it in the rear without lube?

My reps better buy me lunch or they dont get in the door a SECOND TIME.

prices

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Vista Ultimate .... $450
Office 2007 .... $209
Look on the Best Buy monkey's face when he sees the card after the first two items.... priceless.

Good coordination (Do MSIE or AOL run under wine?)

[laddiebuck]

From the credit card application: "In order to use our Financial Services credit applications, you will need to have a browser that supports Javascript and standard 128 Bit SSL encryption such as Microsoft Internet Explorer 6.0 or higher, or AOL 8.0 or higher." Mildly ironic.

And the link to apply goes to a windows 2K sit

[awpoopy]

The link to apply for the credit card goes to a website running on Windows 2000 IIS. Do YOU trust your credit card information on a Windows 2000 machine?

Re:And the link to apply goes to a windows 2K sit

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking the same thing -- and just before seeing your post did look for myself with http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.usban k.com and found "Microsoft-IIS/5.0 10-Jul-2007 170.135.216.181" at the www site. applications.usbank.com I could not specifically identify, but I have to assume it isn't wearing a Tux... Based on this -- being a geek -- it was enough to halt said application.

And YES, being the geek that I am, I do monitor my own bank rather closely (Solaris :).

Sounds more like those weird-ass Catholics

[Anonymous Coward]

Be gone demon! I damn you to...hell, is it? I damn thee to hell. hail mary pass bead countdown christ cookie wino

Re:Good coordination (Do MSIE or AOL run under win

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I can run MSIE with wine come to think of it...

Re:Way to miss the joke

[hummassa]

It's interesting to note how religious trolls relate a lack of religion to a lack of morals. The dialogs posted by the OP are actually mocking christians for having such stupid views about atheism, not mocking atheists for having no morals.
s/christians/self-appointed christian guardians of the Righteous Truth/
s/atheism/atheism, drugs, sexuality, birth control, religious tolerance AND morals/

I corrected it for you, ok? HTH.

Mixed feelings

[greengarden]

As someone that is employed by an open source company, I have mixed feelings about this. I am passionate about open source, I love coding for a company that is making its living out of distributing software for free. I do see open source projects struggling some times, so getting a kind of subsidy like this might be good. But what about those companies that have to work hard to make any money and keep an open source project alive? This could be a place where the market can work, leaving those without a good business plan or strong community out, while those that have been able to attract volunteers and customers thrive.

Here's an idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

How about people nominate the one piece of software that's on just about every Linux and *nix distribution, OpenSSH.

Avoid it .. US Bank is incompetent

[Anonymous Coward]

US Bank is staffed by complete morons. I had an airline card through them and they screwed up twice in the first two cycles, including processing a payment check for the wrong amount. I closed the account before even getting the bonus enrollment miles.

Re:Debt is DUMB. Donate directly--don't use this c

[ftobin]

Using a credit card wisely helps build your credit history; without a good history, one can have a difficult time getting a good mortgage or car loan. Yes, geeks and non-geeks alike can use credit unwisely, but wielding it wisely hints to society you can be entrusted with larger financial responsibilities.

Oooh! Shiny!

[Dusty101]

And of course, there's always the latest shiny toy from Apple...

Why hide fact that only available in USA?

[grahammm]

Why is it that you have to get to page 2 of the application form before it tells you that the card is only available to residents of the USA? There is nothing on the front page, nothing in the terms and conditions nor even on the first page of the application form to say it is not available to those of us outside the USA who might like our credit card spending to help OSS projects.

Typical Linux project, half-assed at best...

[DAE51D]

So, I was ready and willing to sign up for this Linux fund, however, I can't find anywhere on their site or the usbank link anything that talks in detail as to how much (what percentage) from my purchases are donated. How is this all calculated. is it based upon the actual purchase amount? a flat donation per purchase? is it based upon late fees (which I never have)? Of the current projects, how is the money distributed? is it equal shares? a percentage? I think they need to elaborate in much more detail. Related, I see they have a handful of current projects. I think there needs to be more. How about these: Compiz-Fusion Gentoo KDE Gnome Video camera driver development and get rid of Wikipedia, that doesn't need our help. ditch "blender" and add "Gimp"

Disclosure

[JoeMerchant]

Isn't anyone else disturbed by the lack of disclosure here?

I mean, I can get 1% cash back on a number of cards, I'd be concerned that they are donating at least that much if I use their card.

Also, where's the disclosure of past disbursements and current distribution ratios?

It all "feels good" - but without disclosure, I (and the recipients) would be better off if I made my own contributions directly.

Re:Debt is DUMB. Donate directly--don't use this c

[Bobalatate1]

C'mon Slashdotters! You are way too smart to fall for this! The idea that you need "Good Credit" is a myth that's been perpetuated by the lending industry. You don't need a credit history to get a mortgage. There are lots of lenders who will manually underwrite your loan. All they need to see is that you can **heaven-forbid** actually afford the house. As for auto-loans -- save up your money, and use cash to buy a used car. You'll save mucho dinero on interest payments. The math isn't hard! Credit card companies want you to "build your credit" by using their product because they make money off of FEES! Forget to make a payment on time? FEE! Have an emergency, and use the credit card payment to fix the washer? FEE! Is it any wonder that so many people are going Bankrupt, getting foreclosed on, and getting divorced? Is it any wonder that the really BIG buildings downtown are owned by BANKS!?