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Can String Theory Accommodate Inflation?

David Shiga writes "String theory is the leading contender for a "theory of everything" that could unite all the forces of physics. But a recent study suggests that it may be more difficult than scientists had hoped to square string theory with inflation — the widely accepted notion that the early universe had a period of especially rapid expansion. Some say this could even lead to the abandonment of either string theory or inflation, though no one is ruling out a possible resolution yet."

243 comments

  1. Ahem: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    It is said that papers in string theory are published at a rate greater than the speed of light. This, however, is not problematic since no information is being transmitted.

    1. Re:Ahem: by Tatarize · · Score: 1

      Well, yeah. If you need to lose string theory or lose inflation... it isn't much of a choice.

      Which do you want to lose postmodernism or trashing romance novels. Well, the romance novels are at least information...

      --

      It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
    2. Re:Ahem: by click2005 · · Score: 1

      If you need to lose string theory or lose inflation... it isn't much of a choice.

      Yeah, we need to lose string theory.

      I propose tube theory... it works for the internet.

      In the early universe, the contents of tubes moves faster than the tubes themselves.
      Unfortunately, new particles called P2Ps are slowing down the tubes.

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    3. Re:Ahem: by rtconner · · Score: 1

      Yes, Slashdot I'm so proud of you. I had hoped this group of folks would be smart enough to mock String Theory for the science that it is not.

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    4. Re:Ahem: by ArcherB · · Score: 0

      Yes, Slashdot I'm so proud of you. I had hoped this group of folks would be smart enough to mock String Theory for the science that it is not.

      From what I gather, string theory is more math than science anyway.

      (Disclaimer: I am neither a mathematician nor a scientist, so take this comment for what it is worth.)

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    5. Re:Ahem: by mikael · · Score: 4, Funny

      Remember the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...

      As Disaster Area's earnings require hypermathematics, their chief research accountant was named Professor of Neomathematics at the University of Maximegalon and in his Special Theories of Tax Returns he proves that space-time is "not merely curved, it is, in fact, totally bent."

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    6. Re:Ahem: by Kyrka · · Score: 1

      Yeah... it's more of a string "conjecture" if you ask me... they fudge the numbers and do the scientific method in reverse it would seem.

    7. Re:Ahem: by kennygraham · · Score: 1

      they fudge the numbers and do the scientific method in reverse it would seem.

      When did we start talking about Behe?

    8. Re:Ahem: by ioshhdflwuegfh · · Score: 1

      Remember the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...

      As Disaster Area's earnings require hypermathematics, their chief research accountant was named Professor of Neomathematics at the University of Maximegalon and in his Special Theories of Tax Returns he proves that space-time is "not merely curved, it is, in fact, totally bent." Ok, that explains lots of things.
    9. Re:Ahem: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From what I gather, string theory is more math than science anyway.

      With that attitude I am going to have to talk to your philosopher of science.

    10. Re:Ahem: by daem0n1x · · Score: 2, Funny

      I need strings, I play the guitar, you insensitive clod!

    11. Re:Ahem: by oliverthered · · Score: 1
      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    12. Re:Ahem: by b4upoo · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the strings are made from old rubber bands. Case closed!

  2. Lately by kwabbles · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't think ANYTHING can accomodate inflation.

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    1. Re:Lately by sqldr · · Score: 1

      I don't think ANYTHING can accomodate inflation.

      A balloon can :-)

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    2. Re:Lately by WeblionX · · Score: 1

      Yes, but only to a point.

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  3. Spaghetti String Theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Does string theory incorporate the inflation of meatballs and saucy noodles (i.e. strings) due to FSM?

    1. Re:Spaghetti String Theory by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Funny

      saucy noodles (i.e. strings)

      Whoa, whoa there. Noodles aren't "i.e." strings. Noodles are weak, wimpy string posers unable to carry any significant vibrations which given strings their energetic properties. At least according to string theory. Also, according to string theory pirates cannot exist. So you see string theory is the enemy of the FSM.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    2. Re:Spaghetti String Theory by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Inflation is proof that there is a creative Flying Spaghetti Monster out there somewhere. It is NOT, however, proof that such a force is intelligent or anything we'd think of as a being.

      --
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    3. Re:Spaghetti String Theory by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Funny

      Whoa, whoa there. Noodles aren't "i.e." strings. Noodles are weak, wimpy string posers unable to carry any significant vibrations which given strings their energetic properties. At least according to string theory. Also, according to string theory pirates cannot exist. So you see string theory is the enemy of the FSM.

      Strings are the anti-noodle. As we can not see the true face of the the Spaghetti Monster, being that we are corporeal and not created in His image, so are noodles only a worldly approximation of his unstringiness.

      Many say that the Net, with its tubes and ever searching for wood to make pirate signals from, more closely resembles the true noodlieness of the universe. In fact, we find that many of the packets that roam the Net have things not unlike strings inside them, proving that His noodliness is more than strings, but unstrung.

      Now, it's time to get at the meat of the matter. And that is where pirates come in. As we all know, pirates love both grog and meat. And rum. Can't have enough rum.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    4. Re:Spaghetti String Theory by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Inflation is proof that there is a creative Flying Spaghetti Monster out there somewhere. It is NOT, however, proof that such a force is intelligent or anything we'd think of as a being.

      Actually, inflation is not proof that we're intelligent. The Flying Spaghetti Monster, on the other hand, being omnipresent and invisible, has no need to prove Himself intelligent. Just as His Servants, the Pirates, need not be intelligent, they just need to talk like pirates and cure global warming.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    5. Re:Spaghetti String Theory by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

      One time I ate so much spaghetti that I sneezed and spaghetti flew out of my nose!

      The universe, like the human body is 99.9999% snot!

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    6. Re:Spaghetti String Theory by kennygraham · · Score: 2, Funny

      they just need to talk like pirates and cure global warming.

      Arr, one in the same, matey. One in the same.

      May you be touched by his noodly appendage,
      Kenny

    7. Re:Spaghetti String Theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well inflation can be explained by what happens when first you eat the anti-pasta, and then later you eat the pasta, and then sometime after that there is a sort of explosion.

  4. Can String Theory Accommodate Inflation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Sure.

    As central governments print more and more strings, the strings currently in circulation are devalued.

    1. Re:Can String Theory Accommodate Inflation? by OECD · · Score: 2, Funny

      As central governments print more and more strings, the strings currently in circulation are devalued.

      Ah, that's where advertising comes in.

      --
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    2. Re:Can String Theory Accommodate Inflation? by dido · · Score: 1

      Maybe they should be pulling more strings rather than printing them?

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  5. To take a page from Wikipedia... by riscfuture · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "String theory is the leading contender for a 'theory of everything' that could unite all the forces of physics. [citation needed]"

  6. ObXKCD by Eponymous+Bastard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yet another post validating this argument

    (yeah, yeah, it's old. So sue me)

    1. Re:ObXKCD by ArikTheRed · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I've never understood the popularity of String Theory... there exist more elegant solutions. A substrate-neutral theory is much more interesting to me, and solves problems like the ERP paradox.

      "LQG has gained limited support in the physics community. At present more physicists work in string theory than in LQG." But why?

    2. Re:ObXKCD by bjorniac · · Score: 1

      As an LQG researcher (yes, really!) I can answer your question to some degree: LQG wasn't particularly "sexy" for the most part. By that I mean that we don't try to have a "theory of everything" in the way that strings do. LQG for the most part is exactly that - a theory of quantum gravity. There are several people working on some pretty fascinating things now - for example Sundance Bilson-Thomson and his preon models with spin-foams. In fact, the whole spin-network thing is pretty exciting.

      Also, until recently we didn't have the "wow" factor with any of our predictions. Strings go for extra dimensions in a big way which is a huge prediction. The recent advances in LQC (loop quantum cosmology) by Ashtekar and Bojowald, predict a big "bounce" instead of a big "bang", at least for homogeneous and isotropic space-times, and some of us are working hard on others (Singh, Pawlowski, Chiou, Vandersloot etc). A big thing that we have is singularity resolution, at least to some degree. In laymans terms, most of all the scary infinities of the theory of relativity are being stripped away. Not all of them, but most. To me this is a great reason to keep looking at LQG as a whole and something we need to publicize more. Mind you, it's all very recent so maybe people are just catching on to the idea.

      To an extent, as well, string theory has reached what I like to call critical mass. There are enough people working on it that they can all keep one-another in jobs. LQG is a small community and it's pretty hard to get funding for your research when a lot of other prominent scientists say that they have a much better way of doing things. The snob factor seems to come in too - strings go on at places like MIT, Ivy league schools, Cambridge University etc. LQG happens at places like Penn State, Louisiana State, Perimeter (canada). And whilst loops has this bad, it's much worse for people in double special relativity, causal set theory etc etc.

      I'm sure that stringy people can pull up a lot of physical problems with LQG - they do exist. But for most part I think strings had better PR.

    3. Re:ObXKCD by ClassMyAss · · Score: 1

      Knowing something about both theories (I briefly considered going into one or the other), I agree with most of what you say here. But I think it's also worth pointing out that a major thing string theory has going for it is that it's to a very large extent the "obvious" extension of good old quantum field theory, though some garbage snuck in along the way (which actually provides a lot of the sexiness of the theory, i.e. the stuff that Discover can expect somewhat knowledgeable people to follow a layman's explanation of). The thought process essentially goes:

      1) Hmm, we've been doing things with point particles, but hey, these action integrals seem to just depend on the area swept out. Maybe we can generalize this!
      2) Oh, that's unfortunate. When you do it with a string, the theory isn't consistent unless we have 26 dimensions. Crap.
      3) Hey, what if we call this a brilliant insight into the workings of the universe instead of taking it as proof that our theory is wrong?
      4) Crap. There's absolutely no way a bosonic (err, for the non-physics dork, I guess the closest translation would be "normal") string can describe our world, even in 26 dimensions.
      5) Eureka! Let's just throw a bunch of extra random stuff in the stew - membranes, extra dimensions, and supersymmetry, OH MY! - the make up the rules as we go, and we'll end up with a theory that's so flexible it can accomodate ANYTHING! We just need to make sure NEVER to actually set down a bunch of postulates or fundamental rules for our theory (aka: the first rule of M-theory) This is sweet! A little bit of the anthropic principle can save us in a pinch.
      6) ...
      7) You've been reading Slashdot long enough to know what comes next

      I kind of joke, but there's a grain of truth in this story...the point, though, is that the underlying language that things are described in is very similar to what physicists already know, so there are reasonably easy paths in to the theory for most physicists. On the other hand, LQG starts with a very obscure formulation of general relativity and turns it into some truly bizarre stuff, to the level that it takes more of a mathematician than a physicist to even get the gist of the theory. A normal physicist would have to do quite a bit of background work to figure out even the basics, whereas string theory is "easy" enough to jump into that there are some undergraduate classes in it at the better schools across the country.

      My opinion is that both are definitely worth studying, but neither is probably 100% correct. Though I can just about guarantee you, whatever turns out to be correct, string theory will redefine itself as it and claim it was right the whole time.

    4. Re:ObXKCD by bjorniac · · Score: 1

      Well, I wouldn't call it obscure, but then again, I'm a mathematician at heart ;-) For the most part though, the problems with understanding LQG arise from the fact that there aren't popular texts explaining the basics. I'm guessing the "obscure formulation" is the first order (Ashtekar) variables? You can just think of the tetrad as being a way to pull vectors in a curved space-time back to flat minkowski space so you can do math on them more easily. Kinda like Mercator's projection allows you to pull vectors on the surface of the earth back to a flat map and still find angles between them. The connection is just like in electrodynamics (ie derivatives have "an extra bit") or GR. It's not actually hard to get used to this formulation. In fact, GR in these variables isn't hard at all, and should be possible with just a sophomore GR class (I'm not from the US, but I assume that's when the physics majors start their GR for real).

      In some sense LQG is the natural quantization of GR - you take basic variables and try to quantize them. It turns out that you can't quantize connection, so you do the next best thing - quantize the parallel transport of connection around a small loop. This is really how we're first taught what curvature is: You take an arrow, run around the surface of your object (eg the earth) keeping it as straight as possible and see whether it still points the same way when you get back where you started.

      Of course, I'm giving the watered down version, but that's a large part of what's done, particularly in quantum cosmology (which is an easy way in for those who know cosmology). A nice version of this is at http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0702030 - don't worry too much about the formalities, just try to get the gist.

      Anyway, as to your last comment, you are of course right. LQG actually tends to be fairly explicit about the fact that it's not a theory of everything. Indeed, I tend toward the opinion that physics will never be 100% correct, we'll just get better and better approximations to the truth.

  7. Glad someone noticed this by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

    String theory's inability to accommodate inflation has been driving me nuts ever since we converted everything to type string. What a mistake that was. String theory needs some more time in the oven before it's going to be universally acceptable.

    1. Re:Glad someone noticed this by Mattintosh · · Score: 1

      String theory's inability to accommodate inflation has been driving me nuts ever since we converted everything to type string.

      That's what StringBuffers (StringBuilders for all you .NET guys) are for.

    2. Re:Glad someone noticed this by QRDeNameland · · Score: 4, Funny

      This is a vindication of us old school proponents of char* theory.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    3. Re:Glad someone noticed this by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      That's what StringBuffers (StringBuilders for all you .NET guys) are for.

      Java has a StringBuilder too now. It's a non-threadsafe StringBuffer that avoids synchronization overhead during the initial phase of the universe's expansion. If you're inflating only one universe you can do it more efficiently.

    4. Re:Glad someone noticed this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm afraid not -- said the string

  8. Let's hope so... by feepness · · Score: 2, Funny

    If the Fed cuts interest rates next week.

    1. Re:Let's hope so... by SnoopJeDi · · Score: 3, Funny

      ## BEGIN STRING THEORY JOKE I'm a frayed knot. ## END STRING THEORY JOKE

  9. String? Inflation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We're talking the physics of balloons here, are we?

  10. String Theory is Religon Not Science by smack.addict · · Score: 0, Troll

    String theory should be discarded. It's a fanciful religion that explains nothing, but creates a lot of stuff that needs explaining.

    1. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Actually it is 'evolution'. Because everytime an obstacle comes up, string theory is changed in another untestable manner to accomadate an uncomfortable reality that it is not really science.

    2. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Anonymous+Crowhead · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've never understood how string theory could ever be validated, except through funky math invented for the purpose. It's my understanding that if you enlarged an atom to the size of the universe a string would be about 50 feet long (about a planck length). How is that ever going to be testable in practice? From all I've read, the energy required is just not possible, ever.

    3. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      String theory and Inflation can quite happily co-exist.

      All that's needed is a few more dimensions, strings with more than two ends, ....

    4. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

      That's an interesting opinion you have there. What do you think of the way that String Theory accommodates gravitons alongside lower spin particles in a single model? And what do you think of the way the proliferation of particle type in other quantum field theories can be cut down to a single string type (or maybe two in the case of Heterotic String Theory) in String Theory? Also, what do you think of some of the mathematics that has emerged from String Theory such as the proof of the Monstrous Moonshine conjectures by Richard Borcherds, as well as the contributions to geometry and topology by people like Kontsevich and Witten?

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    5. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by smenor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      if you enlarged an atom to the size of the universe a string would be about 50 feet long (about a planck length).

      I didn't believe that when I read it so I worked it out and found that that' actually true (to within an order of magnitude).

    6. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by kebes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      String theory should be discarded. It's a fanciful religion that explains nothing, but creates a lot of stuff that needs explaining.
      String theory is often made fun of for being useless because it makes no predictions. In fact, string theorists are often the ones making these jokes. However, they are ultimately jokes, and not entirely true. The problem is that the public at large has gotten the impression that string theory isn't science because it doesn't make predictions. That's not really true.

      The fact is that what string theory aims to explain (the very fundamental nature of the universe; the events just after the big bang; the reconciliation of quantum mechanics and general relativity) are effects that are inherently difficult to measure. (Otherwise these questions would have been asked long ago.) The fact is that we are not yet able to measure at the extreme energies where string theory becomes relevant. So, the fact is that string theory does make predictions, but it is difficult for us to test these predictions yet.

      Efforts are being made, however. Increasingly sensitive measurements of large-scale cosmological phenomena, and ever-more-powerful particle accelerators may give us experimental information about string theory. Already, in fact, a wide variety of "string theories" have been discarded because they do not match the accelerator data. That is, we are placing bounds on the theories, based on experiments. This is how science works.

      Also important to keep in mind is that string theory meshes with our currently established theories (which, it goes without saying, have been verified experimentally to a very high precision). The agreement is not yet perfect (as TFA points out), but it's important to keep in mind that of the millions of crazy theories you could write down to explain "the universe," very few of them can reproduce more conventional theories (e.g. electromagnetic interactions) in the appropriate limits. The fact that string theory meshes with established knowledge is the thing that keeps physicists "hopeful" that they are going down the right track. That doesn't mean the theory is right, but it shows that it fits in with our current scientific understanding. That's how science works: by developing more detailed theories that nevertheless reproduce the more basic theories.

      String Theory is Religon Not Science
      That kind of exaggeration isn't very useful. Ultimately string theory aims to explain the universe through verifiable (falsifiable) predictions. These observations are difficult to make, but are being attempted. If the observations contradict string theory, physicists will discard it. If a better theory comes along that explains observations, physicists will gladly use that theory instead. Until that happens, there is no reason to ignore our current "best guess."
    7. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by StupiderThanYou · · Score: 2, Insightful

      String Theory is certainly an interesting mathematical theory, and that's fine - as a mathematician, I can respect that. But it has never had a single piece of confirming experimental evidence, and there are now suggestions that it in principle can't have confirming evidence. Given that a large part of the theoretical physics world has spent 30ish years on this, isn't it time to move on?

    8. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 0

      String theory should be discarded. It's a fanciful religion that explains nothing, but creates a lot of stuff that needs explaining.

      This is a very true statement.

      Most people are unaware that most physicists, at least at the doctoral level, are fairly religious folks. Most, even today, happen to be Roman Catholic, for example.

      That string theory, an as yet unproven "grand theory" of physics, is treated as the Word Of God, is one of the more baffling aspects of physics since the early 1990s.

      Most sciences demand observable and repeatable proofs, not nested theories using underlying untested theories below them.

      We can say, with certainty, that Einstein's theories are true, because they are not only proven, they have been tested and observed in repeatable ways.

      We can not say the same for string theory.

      --
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    9. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

      Well it's not like there's the Pontiff of Physics and he/she decides what everyone studies. Research students and researchers make choices about what to study based on what's open to them and what seems interesting/useful/plausible/correct at the time. It's not like these people are unaware of competing models such as loop gravity. So I'm not sure how you intend the phrase "isn't it time to move on?" to be implemented in practice. Fine people up who study strings? Despite the fact that people naturally gravitate towards the cool new thing, they're still flocking to String Theory. Clearly it's still compelling until someone finds a good place for everyone to "move on" to.

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    10. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by king-manic · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually it is 'evolution'. Because everytime an obstacle comes up, string theory is changed in another untestable manner to accomadate an uncomfortable reality that it is not really science.

      Right so Newtons theory of gravity was perfectly good enough and Copernicus's theories were just fine as well. No need to revise for data. /sarcasm

      How on earth did this get +2 interesting. please mod it '-1 author should never breed'.

      Evolution like all scientific theories are either rejected or modified over time. If there is enough data that contravenes the theory then the theory is rejected. If a little data points to an error in the original idea then it's modified. Evolution has never been rejected because the core idea is right but things like the mechanism and some subtitles must be changed as data came in.

      The conversely the arguments against string theory never needs revision because the formula can accommodate almost every possible observation.

      --
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    11. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 1

      How much time we have spent on quantum physics without much experimental evidence? These are not the sort of things you can just test out in a bathtub.

      --
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    12. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by pclminion · · Score: 3, Insightful

      String theory should be discarded. It's a fanciful religion that explains nothing, but creates a lot of stuff that needs explaining.

      It explains everything we have ever observed. However, this is not enough. String theory will not come into its own until it makes a prediction of a phenomenon we have NEVER observed before. Only then will it prove more useful than current theories.

      Now, it's easy to construct a theory which explains everything ever observed -- simply enumerate the universe and say "that's it." But that's not what string theory is. Tomorrow, somebody could discover something in the math that actually makes a testable prediction about something we've never seen before. You have not asserted a single reason why this could not be the case.

    13. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Original+Replica · · Score: 2, Funny

      Given that a large part of the theoretical physics world has spent 30ish years on this, isn't it time to move on?

      I am in no way a Physicist, but wouldn't "moving on" from String Theory require some genius to propose something else that reconciles Quantum Physics and Newtonian Physics? I don't think the first-step break through of an entirely new theory is going to come from the physics community as a whole, but from a single person or small group. Until that happens, grad students still need something to write thesis papers about...

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    14. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by treeves · · Score: 1

      you know not whereof you speak. The evidence confirming quantum theory is overwhelming. I don't even know where to start. OK, how about 100 years ago.

      --
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    15. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      **Whoosh!**

      I don't think the GP was comparing the theory of evolution to sting theory, but but making the joke that string theory proves evolution because it evolves into "another untestable manner to accomadate an uncomfortable reality that it is not really science."

      So either you misread the GP or I misread your post.

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    16. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by mdenham · · Score: 1
      Okay, then how about the proof of why mass exists without invoking a scalar field, magic numbers, or a particle that we're not even sure exists?


      No?

    17. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by king-manic · · Score: 1

      I suppose I may have read it wrong. The quotes lead to some ambiguity on what he meant but now that you mention it it's likely he was saying what you suggested.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    18. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by treeves · · Score: 1

      Where is the list of things quantum theory is required to answer and who put "Why does mass exist?" on it?

      --
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    19. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      The evidence confirming quantum theory is overwhelming there's a world of difference between "quantum theory" (i.e., what Plank and Einstein were arguing about) and "quantum mechanics" (what Einstein spent the latter part of his career attacking.)

      The former says "the world is pixelated, not infinitely divisible", the latter adds "and those pixels might not really be there."

      Sure, it's a layman's simplification. But you can't just wave your hand and say "sure, QM is confirmed" and not provided even a single solitary link.
    20. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by treeves · · Score: 1
      But you can't just wave your hand and say "sure, QM is confirmed" and not provided even a single solitary link.

      Really? I did.

      --
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    21. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Artifakt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Some versions of string theory do make a genuinely interesting prediction. They predict a particle that hasn't actually been observed. A large class of the most studied string theories require adding just this one particle to the standard model, and it has to have spin 2, and mass 0.
              That's a great candidate for a graviton, which is also being predicted for some other reasons. When some of the most aestetically interesting versions of string theory turned out to predict not just any particle or whole family of particles, but that specific one, many physicists got more interested in those theories.
              However, general and special relativity don't actually predict gravitons - Einstein was able to treat gravity as a strain inherent in space-time and not as something mediated by a particle at all, and get some very testable results. Quantum Mechanics doesn't really require Gravitons either. Actual particle accelerator experiments have satisfied various symmetry theories from just the particles observed, and this again doesn't include gravitons.
              There's no practical way to build an accelerator that could even theoretically reach the energies needed to test unification of all four fundamental forces, and gravity is the odd man out that we have no expectation will be integrated by either accelerator experiments or astronomical observations.
              Proof of a mediating particle for gravity would still not prove any of the string theorys, but it would give the likelyest of them some fairly strong support. For now, we're stuck - a theory looks mathematically beautiful, and actually makes a prediction, but we aren't sure yet if that prediction is ever going to become testable, and on the other hand we have no categorical proof the prediction is fundamentally untestable. A test would be nice, but so would a stronger reason for saying there could be no test than just that we aren't yet a type 2 civilization, with the energy of a whole galaxy to use, so we are limited by the economics of it.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    22. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by lgw · · Score: 1

      String theory, as I understand it, explains a very large number of potential universes depending on a set of values that can just be chosen arbitrarily. Given such a state vector, one can make falsifiable claims. However, since there's no way to determine which state vector should describe our universe, that doesn't mean much.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    23. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by StupiderThanYou · · Score: 1

      Someone else can deal with the implementation details, I'm just the ideas guy. And I must admit, the main complaint I have about string theory is the endless crappy pop science documentaries with pictures of flashing loops of string that it's spawned.

    24. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there any way of determining whether the gravitational field of an atom (say a heavy one like lead) is perfectly spherical or follows the shape of the atom. Does it get "lumpy" at close distances?

    25. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Xonstantine · · Score: 1

      Actually, isn't that exactly what science is?

      Hypothesis, test, revise. It's adherence to a dogma that isn't science.

    26. Re: String Theory is Religon Not Science by Dolda2000 · · Score: 1

      I Ain't a String Physicist, but as far as I understand it, these different state vectors of which you speak, are what originally gave rise to the five different, predominant string theories. If I'm not mistaken, the goal of M-theory is to unite the five into one theory without arbitrary variants.

    27. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      So either you misread the GP or I misread your post. I suppose I may have read it wrong. The quotes lead to some ambiguity on what he meant but now that you mention it it's likely he was saying what you suggested. I have to admit that I included the "either I misread..." part because I was worried that I had misread your post. You know more about both topics than I do. That may explain why I "got it": I don't know enough to see what you saw until I read your post.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    28. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're comparing string "theory" to Newton's? The latter have successfully described and predicted majority of human observations/experiments of gravity for centuries. String "theory?" It managed to chop down whole buncha trees so far.

    29. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by king-manic · · Score: 1

      I was too hasty. I'm sort of a science zealot. which is bad if I don't read things right.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    30. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by ultranova · · Score: 0, Troll

      I've never understood how string theory could ever be validated, except through funky math invented for the purpose.

      That's simple, actually: have you ever fallend down ? Fallen flat on your face, when there's been seemingly nothing that could have caused you to lose your balance ? Well, since everything must have the cause, we can conclude that there must have been an invisible string which wrapped itself around your legs and made you fall. We can further conclude - with some more testing - that the strings are especially attracted to the legs of people who have alcohol in their bloodstream; just watch drunks wave around as they are being pulled this way and that by invisible strings as evidence.

      And that's all there is to string theory.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    31. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read twice. Cut once.

    32. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      30 years is not a long time! The experiments themselves are taken that long - the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) alone has taken 20 years.

      I don't get these people running around going "omg it's 30 years, and they haven't solved the universe yet". jeez.

      String theory has produced a lot of useful science and mathematics. Even if string theory is wrong (which it probably is) it is needed to expand our understanding. It is not like a car journey where you chose a road then have to double back if you took the wrong turn.

    33. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      Actually it's a bit stronger than that. Most models of string theory do predict something that we haven't seen yet (Higgs Boson for example) which can be looked for (The LHC that will be finished next year after 20 years of work).

      However other models also predict Higgs Boson. So if we don't find the Higgs Boson (aka 'God particle') then we know (mostly) string theory is wrong, afaik. If we do find it, then it doesn't really confirm string theory, since there are 'simpler' explanations for it (standard model).

      I hope that jumble of thoughts makes sense :)

    34. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by rasputin465 · · Score: 1

      They predict a particle that hasn't actually been observed... it has to have spin 2, and mass 0.

      When physicists talk about "predictions", we are referring to those that can be tested; all others are irrelevant. This spin 2 particle that string theory "predicts" is sort of a red herring; it doesn't predict anything about how the particle should interact, so even if we DID observe a spin 2, mass 0 particle, one could not say it validates anything about string theory.

      What bothers me the most about this posting (the main post, not the parent) is that it tries to put string theory and inflation on equal footing. This is extremely misleading. The predictions of inflation are very specific and have been well-supported by precision measurements of the cosmic microwave background (CMB). String theory, on the other hand, makes no predictions, and has no supporting evidence. The GP's comparison of string theory to a religion is right to the point: as Nobel-laureate Sheldon Glashow said about string theory, "If there is a model that cannot be tested, is that science? Or is it philosophy?"

    35. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      This spin 2 particle that string theory "predicts" is sort of a red herring; it doesn't predict anything about how the particle should interact

      On the contrary, string theory predicts a unique interaction for the graviton.

      String theory, on the other hand, makes no predictions, and has no supporting evidence.

      That's a silly claim. There are plenty of string models which make predictions. The problem is in distinguishing them from the predictions of existing quantum field theory models.

    36. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by hey! · · Score: 1

      So, to put your post in a nutshell a non-physicist can understand, String Theory == Jam Tomorrow.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    37. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1
      > the main complaint I have about string theory is the endless crappy pop science documentaries with pictures of flashing loops of string that it's spawned.

      I've never watched a pop science documentary about String Theory. I wonder if I'll get to the end of my life without every having watched one.

      The only thing that bothers me about String Theory is that people aren't agnostic enough about it. You either believe or you don't, and if you show the slightest interest in it you must be a believer. If you mention something stringy in the presence of anti-Stringists they'll jump down your throat, and vice versa. Well I'm a String Agnostic, and I'm proud of it. I studied it, loved it, thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, but doubt it describes the world we know.

      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    38. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It's my understanding that if you enlarged an atom to the size of the universe a string would be about 50 feet long (about a planck length). How is that ever going to be testable in practice?
      Ah, but then where would the rest of the universe go?
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    39. Re:String Theory is Religon Not Science by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You know more about both topics than I do. That may explain why I "got it": I don't know enough to see what you saw until I read your post.
      I think that's the first time I've ever seen anyone admit to inferior knowledge of anything on slashdot.
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  11. I would like to see some experiments by causality · · Score: 0, Troll

    When any Big Bang type of theory is mentioned, I sometimes wonder why alternative theories, like the Electric Universe, are never mentioned, as though there is only one way to try to explain cosmological phenomenon. I would really like to see some experiments or at least some solid reasoning (instead of the usual approach, which is dismissal) to attempt to falsify some of the claims made here or here or here.

    While I am not entirely certain that the Electric Universe has The Truth either (nor do I think it's a good idea to ever fully believe that this is the case), I too am tired of hearing about the "reality" of mathematical entities that have never been directly observed, and of the tendency to just insert dark matter wherever it's needed, after the fact (as opposed to predicting its presence and location by theory), when it is found that our currently understanding otherwise fails to describe the objects we are seeing. I do agree with Wal Thornhill that cosmology is beginning to resemble the Ptolemaic epicycles.

    It's also a shame that (at least in the USA) the funding system has made science another self-reinforcing status quo just like the political system, in that no one who is willing to change things and try a totally different approach has any chance of receiving the funding and support that's necessary to get off the ground.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    1. Re:I would like to see some experiments by kmac06 · · Score: 1

      It's also a shame that (at least in the USA) the funding system has made science another self-reinforcing status quo just like the political system, in that no one who is willing to change things and try a totally different approach has any chance of receiving the funding and support that's necessary to get off the ground.

      You don't know what you're talking about. Explain what you meant, and give examples if you can.

    2. Re:I would like to see some experiments by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 4, Interesting
      > no one who is willing to change things and try a totally different approach has any chance of receiving the funding and support that's necessary to get off the ground.

      Um...physics has completely turned upside down in the last century and has changed pretty dramatically over the last 20 years. What kind of remote island are you living on that you're so out of touch and think that 'different' approaches never get funding? If you've never bothered to look at current research then you really don't have any right to speak, and it's obvious that you haven't. For example there has been ongoing debate for many years now between people who are searching for dark matter and proponents of MOND. There's nothing more annoying than pontification from ignorant armchair physicists.

      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    3. Re:I would like to see some experiments by 2short · · Score: 1

      All three of your links go to the same web site, which spends most of it's time talking about ways the standard model is incomplete, as opposed to giving any sort of quick summary of what their theory claims. Not to be dismissive, but this is a bit of a red flag.

      In any case, it is silly to complain nobody is spending time and money trying to falsify a particular theory just because someone else thought it up; give us some reason to think it's worthwhile. While there are some rather gaping holes the standard model cannot explain, people like it because it has made stunningly accurate predictions (e.g. the COBE data).

      The question for any new theory then is "What does it predict that is different than what the standard model does?" People ridicule String Theory because (in the opinion of the ridiculers) it doesn't predict anything in particular.

      In a quick scan of the web site you link, I can't see an answer to, or even acknowledgement of, that question.

    4. Re:I would like to see some experiments by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      ... the tendency to just insert dark matter wherever it's needed, after the fact (as opposed to predicting its presence and location by theory) Here's a thought -- what if the sole observable property of dark matter was that it exerted gravitational tug on the stuff around it? That there was no other way to detect it, other than it made it look like there should be some matter, with other observable properties, exist in a certain place? That it is not 'dark' matter at all, just a force of gravity? That you could only observe it by excluding all other possible explanations of gravitational pull?
      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    5. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The electric Universe has been throughly debunked.
      On the Electric Sun Hypothesis

    6. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "Electric Universe" makes claims that are demonstrably false and have been shown false through continued experimentation. For example, they argue in favor of the "luminiferous aether" and claim that Miller's experiments prove that such a thing exists. They fail to mention that these experiments took place almost a full century, and no experiment since then, performed with modern and much more accurate technology has borne out those findings; further, that even other contemporary experiments of the same sort failed to support Miller's findings. In science, experimental evidence is only admissible if it is reproducible. Given that this is their main objection to Special Relativity, I think that significantly undermines their entire premise.

      Given the amount of text on that page, I don't feel like going through every single premise and analyzing its validity, but such egregious error throws the rest of the data into significant question.

      Also, the USA's funding system is irrelevant. Science advances outside of the US, you know. If a physicist found conclusive *evidence*, as opposed to hypothesis, that the theories of relativity or quantum mechanics were flawed, it would certainly be widely publicized and that physicist would be quite famous.

    7. Re:I would like to see some experiments by OzRoy · · Score: 2

      Oh please someone mod this down!

      Electric Universe is not an alternate theory. To be alternative it needs to be based in reality somehow, but most of it's claims are easily disproved by just about every single observation we have ever made about the solar system.

      Electric Universe is a scientific theory that is so bad it doesn't even deserve to be called pseudo-science.

    8. Re:I would like to see some experiments by huckamania · · Score: 1

      "While there are some rather gaping holes the standard model cannot explain, people like it because it has made stunningly accurate predictions (e.g. the COBE data)."

      Which is exactly the point. The COBE data doesn't line up with expectations. The standard model never predicted dark matter or dark energy, they were added because the standard model fails without them. That's a big difference. I think Albert Einstein would be very skeptical of the practices of modern physicists.

      Anywhile, people like the standard model because they have been taught that it is correct and have since learned that it gets funded. Plus everyone likes something for nothing which is what the Big Bang is all about, that and we all used to occupy the same space, which is very new agey.

    9. Re:I would like to see some experiments by king-manic · · Score: 1

      When any Big Bang type of theory is mentioned, I sometimes wonder why alternative theories, like the Electric Universe, are never mentioned,/i>

      Because that particular theory is obviously wrong.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    10. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Eukariote · · Score: 1

      When any Big Bang type of theory is mentioned, I sometimes wonder why alternative theories, like the Electric Universe, are never mentioned, as though there is only one way to try to explain cosmological phenomenon.

      To get closer to the reason you must take one step back and realize that Big Bang theories are based on general relativity theory. Relativity theory has been elevated to sacred dogma that is defended at all costs. And that includes supression of experimental evidence indicating a slightly variable and varying speed of light. See for example http://surf.de.uu.net/bookland/sci/farce/farce_6.html#SEC6, or go back to what Michelson and Moreley actually published and ignore the spin that was applied later. Or look at what Dayton Miller actually measured and reported before the inquisition arrived.

      The thing that makes cosmology, and particularly the corresponding astronomical observations, highly political is that any reasonable cosmological model is bound to run into conflict with relativity theory. That's why we're stuck with a patched-up ludicrous model that includes a singularity, inflation, and more ad-hoc magic required to keep the model within the bounds of relativity theory.

    11. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Um, yeah. You see I'm going to be extremely skeptical of anyone claiming that the sun cannot be performing fusion when based on the very same theories that describe the pressures and energies required for fusion occurring in the sun we have created fusion right here on earth.

      I'm skeptical of anyone who claims not only to have solved problems with the existing theory, but to entirely upturn the existing theory itself even the parts that have extensive verification. Hell the last time I crossed baths with an Electric Universe proponent on /., he was claiming that EU explained impact craters, as if EU had now replaced the obvious and rather well tested effects of kinetic energy. Einstein didn't and simply couldn't up-end Newton's theory, he could only explain what Newton failed to. EU tries, and summarily fails.

      Epicycles were a case of taking something with a clear explanation -- elliptical orbits -- and deciding that no, everything must be comprised of circles. EU is the same thing -- attempting to turn everything into the universe into electricity, desperately inserting it everywhere even if there is no need.

      It's one thing to try to explain the things that our current theories can't. It's quite another to try to invalidate well-verified aspects of those theories.

      I'm no fan of science politics in this country, but the most basic bar for any theory is that it should not contradict the existing evidence. Relativity could do that, so even as weird and unlikely and unorthodox as it was considered at the time, it eventually won acceptance and now is one of the best tested theories. EU can't do that, and thus even in a perfect system should be rejected.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    12. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He doesn't need to - he just successfully trolled a bunch of slashdotters, and is still currently modded +3 Insightful.

    13. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Lorkki · · Score: 1

      Electric Universe is a scientific theory

      Excuse me, but that is downright irresponsible. After reading this part of the sentence I'd fallen off my chair with my eyes watering. The clamour associated with the event greatly disturbed my neighbours, who promptly filed a complaint with my landlord. Consequently, I myself would like to complain about the damage done to my reputation as an inhabitant of this tenement and as an upstanding citizen.

      Seriously though, and meaning no offence, calling a crummy hypothesis such as the Electric Universe a theory in any scientific sense is giving it a lot more credit than it deserves.

    14. Re:I would like to see some experiments by thechao · · Score: 1

      I'm entirely incompetent to discuss physics, but you've pointed to a website that claims that "neither relativity nor quantum mechanics are physics." I understand scepticism of string-theory, but those are some serious claims. Anyways, you should probably read about Big Bang cosmology on wikipedia; it's a pretty good start to help with your confusion. You know, with reality.

    15. Re:I would like to see some experiments by gardyloo · · Score: 1
      When a site (as your second link does) contains something like this

      It is interesting that biological systems also use heavy elements like iron and magnesium to perform their minor miracles of transmutation of elements. or like this

      Indeed, gravity can be represented as the sum of the radially aligned electric dipoles formed by all subatomic particles within a charged planet or star. I become extremely skeptical that the site's author has a clue.
    16. Re:I would like to see some experiments by lgw · · Score: 1

      Dark matter was one of many hypotheses that explained galaxy rotation rates. Of all of those hypotheses, the dark matter hypothesis best predicted the COBE data (and the COBE data gives a matter to dark matter ratio to 2 significant digits, cosmology with 2 significant digits still boggles my mind).

      So, "dark matter exists, and is about 80% of matter" is a pretty good hypothesis right now. This has little to do with particle physics. There are of course several ideas about what dark matter might be that model well for matter distribution in the universe, but that's not the same as a verified prediction. I don't think there's any sort of strong hypothesis about the actual particles of dark matter, just a lot of ideas looking for testable predictions.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    17. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 1

      I don't know what you're talking about. Explain what you meant, and give examples if you can.

      There, fixed that for ya.

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    18. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nice troll. ;-)

      But seriously, I agree entirely. I came across this a while back, and it sits pretty well with me. Of course most people will say it's ridiculous and laugh it off because <insert derision but provide no sensible argument>.

      Either that or they will respond by arguing that it can't work because the combination of a few observations and <insert theory (note: *theory*)> doesn't allow it.

      Most folks discussing these things are like primary school kids discussing cars. They don't actually know what they are talking about, but they like to imagine they do and tend to agree on a favourite. Any kid who disagrees is stupid.

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    19. Re:I would like to see some experiments by causality · · Score: 1

      For example there has been ongoing debate for many years now between people who are searching for dark matter and proponents of MOND. There's nothing more annoying than pontification from ignorant armchair physicists.

      And dark matter is needed only because the current gravity-only model fails miserably without it. Dark matter was not predicted by the Standard Model, it was bolted onto it after it was realized that large-scale structures could not be explained without it (i.e. with only the visible matter, our galaxy should fly apart according to the gravity-only viewpoint). This is precisely the pattern by which epicycles were added to the old geocentric theories to explain away observations that suggested that it was wrong. Compare this to the truly successful predictions, (you know, the ones that were mentioned before the effect was observed?) such as gravitational lensing or time dilation, it should be obvious that something is wrong with the dark matter picture. Name for me some "current research" other than string theory (which cannot be tested in the foreseeable future, making it more closely resemble metaphysics, not science) that is doing anything other than revising theories to fix them when a new, unpredicted observation breaks them. In other words, the theory is being revised but the assumptions and thought processes that led to that theory are not. The arrogance that "we can't possibly be missing something fundamental because this time we finally get it!" certainly isn't being revised either. Dark matter, dark energy, black holes, and other things that have never been directly observed are added after the fact wherever they are needed to explain away inconsistencies when they are found.

      What kind of remote island are you living on that you're so out of touch and think that 'different' approaches never get funding?

      Perhaps different approaches to the Standard Model get plenty of funding, but this is still a monoculture. This is not a competition among different theories to find out which is the most useful and makes the most successful predictions; this is a competition among different interpretations of the same theory.

      There's nothing more annoying than pontification from ignorant armchair physicists.

      And answering my opinion about the current state of physics research by talking about who has the right to speak, which island I am on, how out of touch I am, and who is an "armchair physicist" is supposed to show me the error of my ways? This might make you feel better about yourself but it's not very convincing (I won't bother pointing out what it says about your character or your level of discipline). I get it, if you just assert something strongly enough, it magically becomes true! Your single paragraph was low on facts but had plenty of expressions of your indignation that I would dare to question your sacred viewpoint, some content-free statements like "... turned upside down in the last century and changed pretty dramatically over the last 20 years," and a general display of exactly the type of hubris that hinders real progress. It's like you're personally offended that I don't see things the way that you do, which is quite a bit different from trying to correct what you perceive as my incorrect beliefs.
      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    20. Re:I would like to see some experiments by OzRoy · · Score: 1

      ...that is so bad it doesn't even deserve to be called pseudo-science. I'll just finish the quote for you. You obviously fell off your chair before you could get to the end.
    21. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Lorkki · · Score: 1

      I might as well quote from my own reply, which said "this part of the sentence". As said, no harm intended.

    22. Re:I would like to see some experiments by taricha · · Score: 2, Informative
      Don't mod parent down. mod up, and explain why the idea is total rubbish.

      I read a few of the arguments from the page, just to know what you are talking about.

      Neither Einstein's relativity nor quantum mechanics are physics so we cannot use them as a foundation for our new model (although we should find that the mathematics that works in the real world still applies).We have to discard "modern" physics and return to the classical physics of a century ago. This, perhaps, is the greatest hurdle - to discard our training and prejudices and to approach the problem with a beginner's mind.

      whew! I'm so glad we can at least keep mathematics - or some part of it - because reinventing physics without it would be problematic

      We must "go down" one more level and propose that all subatomic particles, including the electron, are resonant structures of electric charges of opposite sign that sum to the charge on that particle....The electron is not a fundamental, point-like particle.It must have structure to provide its dipole magnetic field.... The same model applies to the proton and the neutron.

      So all the particle physics results indicating the existence of quarks are fictional? Well if we had known they didn't exist we wouldn't have spent so much time and money pinning down their properties.

      When we accelerate electrons or protons in an electromagnetic field they become less responsive to the fields the more they are accelerated. This has been interpreted as an increase in mass. However, charges have no mass.

      I (and particle physicists) much prefer E^2 = (pc)^2 +m^2*c^4 where m is the rest-mass; an unchanging invariant property. only the momentum p has relativistic terms in it.

      The notion that matter can be annihilated when normal matter meets antimatter is a confusion of language. Matter can neither be destroyed nor created nor can matter be exchanged for energy. Einstein's E = mc2 refers to mass, a property of matter, not matter itself.

      The most collapsed form of matter is the neutrino, which has a vanishingly small mass. However, the neutrino must contain all of the charges required to form two particles - a particle and its antiparticle. This symmetry explains why a neutrino is considered to be its own anti-particle. A neutrino may accept energy from a gamma ray to reconstitute a particle and its anti-particle. "Empty space" is full of neutrinos. They are the repositories of matter in the universe, awaiting the burst of gamma-radiation to expand them to form the stuff of atoms. The weird "zoo" of short-lived particles created in particle accelerators and seen in cosmic rays are simply unstable resonant systems of charge.

      We must abandon our peculiar phobia against a force acting at a distance. And we must give up the notion that the speed of light is a real speed barrier. It may seem fast to us, but on a cosmic scale it is glacial. Imposing such a speed limit and requiring force to be transmitted by particles would render the universe completely incoherent.

      Holy friggin' hell. check out http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-56/iss-10/images/p48fig1.jpg or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:First_Gold_Beam-Beam_Collision_Events_at_RHIC_at_100_100_GeV_c_per_beam_recorded_by_STAR.jpg image created at RHIC. Think about what standard physics implies about the result versus "Electric physics"
      Electric Physics
      1. individual gold atoms are accelerated perhaps to >c
      2. energy is added into some electric fields within the atom
      3. the electric fields do not interact with any neutrinos until the atoms near each other
      4. the electric fields interact with thousands of undetected neutrinos at the exact point where the atoms collide (kind of

    23. Re:I would like to see some experiments by causality · · Score: 1

      All three of your links go to the same web site, which spends most of it's time talking about ways the standard model is incomplete, as opposed to giving any sort of quick summary of what their theory claims. Not to be dismissive, but this is a bit of a red flag.

      The reason why the three links point to the same Web site is because that post was not intended to be research (you can do that on your own); it was intended to display a viewpoint I have encountered and find to be interesting (but FYI a link to a synopsis is found on their main page). I'm less concerned with whether the Electric Universe theory is correct and more interested in whether we are willing to question what we think we know. I would like to see more work done on alternatives like this. I believe that in terms of cost-benefit, the possibility of a truly new discovery is worth the effort this would require.
      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    24. Re:I would like to see some experiments by jagdish · · Score: 2, Funny

      There's nothing more annoying than pontification from ignorant armchair physicists.

      I understand your irritation, but there is no need to insult Stephen Hawking.

    25. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Skrynkelberg · · Score: 1

      I agree with the GP that you really have been living under a rock. Dark matter exists.

      Welcome back to reality. A cup of tea?

    26. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Skrynkelberg · · Score: 1
    27. Re:I would like to see some experiments by tigerhawkvok · · Score: 1

      Its easy. Because they're WRONG. Maybe when people stop saying "What about THIS alternate theory!?!" and start taking physics and astronomy classes, making relativistic corrections in experiments and in your data, knowing where teh data came from, and it matching perfectly with everything else, they can talk.

      String theory is very mathematical and I have my personal issues with a number of aspects of it -- but these issues stem from the excessively nonlinear requirements on earlier calculations to derive current models. But its a damn sight better than nothing at all -- and even if some of the spin-offs are *almost* religions in their untestability, at least they're looking for a way to test themselves.

      By the way: gravity does travel at the speed of light. Its why orbits follow images -- you *never* see something "where it really is", you always see its light-position. Enter Brehmßtralung radiation (a purely relativistic effect). It also does bend space-time; its why there's gravitational lensing. It also does radiate gravity waves: we have detectors set up for them and pulsar orbits can be observed to decay with that energy radiating. We also have detected dark matter where there is no visible matter. Same gravitational lensing I'm sure you believe doesn't exist.

      This idiocy-fixing brought to you by basic university-level astrophysics.

      --
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    28. Re:I would like to see some experiments by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      And you are the primary school kid who takes the opposite opinion from what the adults and the other kids say, because you like to be alone?

      I read through the link. The first half is just a rehash of general relativity, written to sound as if physics was wrong ("There is no gravitational force! woooo!") when it's just saying exactly what physics says now.

      He argues some stuff about the red shift coming from spacetime curvature, although I can't see how he accounts for the evidence that shows our spacetime is extraordinarily flat.

      His figure 6 describes the whole idea of big bang, big crunch, big bang cycle. But I don't see how he copes with the usual problem of entropy. The big crunch has much much higher entropy than the big bang - you need some way to restart entropy.

      He says that these explosions account for the background radiation, but he's way seems to offer no prediction of the temperature etc. However the standard physics model correctly predicts the ratios of matter from the background radiation.

      Bah I'm bored going through it now. But it seems to keep going on like this. If he submitted this to a journal, it would be torn apart.

      However, most theories would probably be torn apart too, so I'm not rejecting it as useless. But he's got a _long_ way to go.

    29. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Limburgher · · Score: 1

      I think you mean Not Even Wrong. :)

      --

      You are not the customer.

    30. Re:I would like to see some experiments by aminorex · · Score: 1

      > Electric Universe is a scientific theory that is so bad it doesn't even deserve to be called pseudo-science.

      Patent-leather science then?

      Actually, I think the notions propounded by the advocates of the "Electric Universe" are just classical electrodynamics applied to inter-planetary and inter-stellar scales. The main point of these advocates boils down to: Please stop forgetting about electrostatics when you look at the sky. Seems sensible to me. Now as to whether or not any specific phenomenon for which someone proposes an electro-magnetic mechanism is correctly thus understood -- well, that's going to be a separate, open question in each specific case. What is truly anti-scientific is to discount an explanation on an ad hominem basis, or because it is offensive to the traditions of the culture -- including the inbred culture of peer review, particularly when competing theories represent a threat to one's funding sources.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    31. Re:I would like to see some experiments by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1
      > Dark matter was not predicted by the Standard Model, it was bolted onto it after it was realized that large-scale structures could not be explained without it

      You have a really bizarre picture of science. You don't have to predict everything in advance when doing science. When you do fundamental research you are defining the arena in which you think other phenomena take place. You don't expect to predict the existence of every single little thing that appears in that arena, you merely have to make sure that there is room in your arena to contain everything that you find. Similarly in biology, you can have a really good understanding of how genetics is explained by DNA, but you don't expect that model to predict what new species you'll find next time you go exploring in the Amazon. You only start worrying about your DNA theory when you find that the next species you find in the Amazon doesn't have any DNA. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - but that there might be matter out there that is hard to detect (but not impossible, and it even appears to be mappable) is hardly an extraordinary claim.

      > Dark matter, dark energy, black holes, and other things that have never been directly observed are added after the fact

      Black holes were never added after the fact, they are extrapolated from known and well tested physical models. Dark energy arises in a natural way from general relativity as soon as you add in a cosmological constant term. As Einstein had no justification for removing that term in the first place, it's entirely reasonable to work with this hypothesis. The existence of dark matter is being deduced using the same method that has been used through the centuries to detect things like the planets Neptune and Uranus - modifications to the expected path of gravitating bodies explicable through the postulation of other, as yet unseen, matter. What's being "added after the fact"? This is normal everyday science.

      > Perhaps different approaches to the Standard Model get plenty of funding, but this is still a monoculture.

      Pick up and read some physics papers. The Standard Model is barely even discussed in the majority. Consider the vast number of papers on supersymmetry, a symmetry that isn't even present in the Standard Model. I suspect that you don't even know what the "standard model" is. Not just the details of it. I suspect you don't even know what broad category of thing it is. There's nothing wrong with not knowing stuff, we all have to start out that way, but most of us have the sense to find out what we're talking about before we criticize the work of others.

      > dare to question your sacred viewpoint

      Please spare me the cliches about scientists defending sacred physical beliefs. I am defending no particular physical model here. I'm merely pointing out your ignorance about current trends in physics and stating that if you bother to read current research you'll find that (1) there is an incredible proliferation of papers on fundamental physics with a wide variety of different ideas and (2) what you call "bolting on" is simply ordinary physics as it's been practiced for centuries. I'm not using the word 'ignorance' as a form of insult. It's merely a statement of fact.

      > content-free statements like "... turned upside down ..."

      Doesn't look content-free to me. There have been amazing advances in physics over the last 20 years. I've no idea what this has to do with indignation. It's a suggestion to you to get out of your armchair and have a look at what's been going on in physics recently. Dip into arxiv.org to see the diversity of work going on all over the world - whether it's the unification of disparate String Theories into a unified M-theory or the way the wackiest predictions of quantum mechanics have been borne out by the subtlest of mesoscopic experiments. That way, you can stop your own content-free blathering and make a contribution yourself rather than simply moaning about other people.

      And sure - there are all kinds of problems in the physics world right now. But you'll need to do some more work before you understand what they are.

      --
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    32. Re:I would like to see some experiments by OzRoy · · Score: 1

      To even be considered a valid scientific theory they have to be able to explain the most basic and fundamental observations. Electric Universe can't do that. I can't explain anything. It says that a comet's tail is charged particles arcing away from the comet as it comes closer to the sun, and this is why you get an anti-tail, the opposite charged particles go the other way. Why? Where does this magical charge come from? Why don't the solar winds work this way? Solar winds are always moving away from the sun, and contain both positive and negative charged particles. What is the source of the neutrinos we have detected coming from the Sun?

      EU Cannot give an explanation for any of these questions, and the stuff that it apparently does give an explanation for we already know and have an answer for. It isn't science.

    33. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 1

      And you are the primary school kid who takes the opposite opinion from what the adults and the other kids say, because you like to be alone?

      No, I'm the kid who says "screw cars" and goes and plays "Monkey" with some other kids.

      All of the arguments you present are interesting, but they are all based on theories and models or are based on observations based on theories and models and observed using aparatus that operate from within our little piece of the universe with our rules that are again based on existing models.

      The existence of atoms is not certain. Granted, we can build equipment that takes measurements which seem to confirm that they do exist, but that is all based on extrapolating observations from our experience.

      I'm not saying that all of that is wrong, but I don't accept that it's certainty. Our understanding of the universe is based on models and models are representations of aspects of nature in which we have interest. A model SR-71 some hobbiest has put together with glue and covered in stickers is not a real SR-71. The thing I find funny about so many "experts" is that they will argue that a model is fact and ridicule anyone who questions it.

      I prefer to keep an open mind, and sometimes wonder whether the rules of nature bend throughout the universe. What if the laws vary so subtly that probes sent into deep space couldn't possibly detect they changes for another thousand years, but our furthest observations are so wildly distorted by thier remoteness that by the time a probe could get there, it would resemble a banana and taste like chicken?

      There's nothing wrong with questioning the status quo, and in fact that is how major scientific breakthroughs happen. The rest is technological and/or academic.

      He argues some stuff about the red shift coming from spacetime curvature

      BTW, this the bit that I don't quite buy. I don't believe in spacetime. Yeah, he has a long way to go, but it's still any interesting and aesthetically pleasing model IMO.

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    34. Re:I would like to see some experiments by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      > The existence of atoms is not certain. Granted, we can build equipment that takes measurements which seem to confirm that they do exist, but that is all based on extrapolating observations from our experience.

      I'm not really sure what you mean. You know that we can practically "see" an atom with a scanning tunnelling microscope? http://www.physics.uci.edu/~wilsonho/Physics%20Today%20On%20The%20Web%20-%20Search%20and%20Discovery_files/chasfeb1.jpg for example

      If you feel that this is just "extrapolating observations from our experience" then you can say the same thing about, well, anything. You can't trust that the Sun exists, that that arms exist, and so on.

      How does that saying go? It's always worth having an open mind, but not so open that everything falls out :-D

      > The thing I find funny about so many "experts" is that they will argue that a model is fact and ridicule anyone who questions it.

      Who argues this? I bet you can't find any (real) scientist saying this.

    35. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 1

      You just confirmed my point. I mean the 1st thing about atoms. Check the model. I don't believe atoms are real, but I accept they are useful. Many thanks.

      Seeing as how I cannot prove I exist and yet my awareness confirms existence, I can only assume that what I call knowing power is a factor of /.

      BTW, if a cat shits on your lawn, blame Schroedinger,

      Aaaaaaaw shit.... here am I, all knowing, and some cat shits in my boot and....

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    36. Re:I would like to see some experiments by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      So is there anything that you do know?

      When you say that you don't believe in atoms, does that mean that you are more certain that they don't exist than that they do? If so, how can you possibly justify your beliefs?

    37. Re:I would like to see some experiments by 2short · · Score: 1

      "The COBE data doesn't line up with expectations."

      Are you kidding? Maybe we're not speaking of the same thing? When I say "the COBE data" I should point out I specifically mean the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation curve measured by the FIRAS instrument, which the big-bang theory predicted should be the spectral curve of a 2.7K black body. If there is a more stunningly perfect fit between a theoretical prediction and experimental data in the history of science, I should like to hear of it.

      And as an aside, of course nothing predicted dark matter. Dark matter is a theory. Nothing predicts theories. Theories predict data.

      Based on the astro-physicists I have known, you are incorrect. They have all absolutely delighted in kicking around whatever odd-ball cosmology theory someone could come up with to figure out how it fails. Which is generally not too hard as there is currently a lot of different data that fits with the standard model, and an alternative has to explain all that.

    38. Re:I would like to see some experiments by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 1

      When I say "I don't believe in atoms" I'm not saying "I believe atoms don't exist". Elvis Presley is dead, but not all of the class of dead people is Elvis Presley.

      I'm saying the atom is a model that helps us understand the universe; it's a useful mental construct rather than a concrete fact. Without humans to assert them, atoms don't exist, even if the effects we attribute to the existence of atoms remain. How could we possibly know fo certain that the universe doesn't instantly turn into a giant marshmallow the moment humans stop looking?

      My whole point through this entire thread is that the only constant immutable fact in the universe is change and when pouring scorn on other theories, just remember the "facts" on which you base your arguments are also theoretical.

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
  12. Re:FIRST!!! by pyster · · Score: 0

    grrr!

  13. Has anyone told Brazil? by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

    Brazil needs to know... and they will be in a conundrum!

    Strings or inflation???

    What a choice!

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  14. Partisan Propaganda... by newgalactic · · Score: 1

    At first I thought this was the Bush Administrations latest "plan" on balancing the budget. "...We need to unify the Five Forces of economics, ....and take the fight to Al-Qaeda."

  15. What fascinates me... by ackthpt · · Score: 1

    Ok so the Universe came into being with rapid inflation, during the first 0.001 seconds or whatever it was. Then things settled down to all this matter getting itself organised into hydrogen clouds, which formed starts, some of which were super massive and only existed for 100 million years, before blowing themselves to bits, thus creating second generation stars (like Sol) and the stuff of heavier and various other elements (which makes up most of the planets and debris whizzing around Sol), but many stars actually collapse into black holes, or suck up so many other stars they're crushed by their own density and gravity to the point where neutrons are accellerating towards the cores and and emitting radiation bursts (converting matter to energy) until the black holes cease to exist (all this happening in an apparent timeframe which doesn't appear to support some of the physics and estimates of the universe's age. So anyway, if all this matter is turning into energy, why didn't it just do that initially rather than go through this labourious process of creating stars, galaxies, nebulae, etc?


    space is big, space is dark, it's hard to find, a place to park. Burma Shave - from Workbench lander

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:What fascinates me... by TheDauthi · · Score: 1

      The initial universe was too hot to allow for hydrogen to helium conversion. It had to wait for several hundred thousand years just to congeal into atoms. By then, everything was spread apart too much to just undergo fusion... the matter in the universe had to wait even longer for stars to coalesce. And the original stars were too hot to really use all of their matter up, tending toward supernovas after a few hundred million years.

    2. Re:What fascinates me... by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      Just to clarify this, the hydrogen to helium conversion would happen just fine, but then the helium would be struck pretty quickly and converted back into hydrogen.

      You need the temperature to be hot enough to create helium, but cold enough that it isn't destroyed again straight away.

    3. Re:What fascinates me... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      So anyway, if all this matter is turning into energy, why didn't it just do that initially rather than go through this labourious process of creating stars, galaxies, nebulae, etc?


      Why did it go through the big bang? Why did it go through the inflation phase? Why was it doing the totally crazy physics doesn't mean a thing thing in the first infintesimal section of time?

      Functionally, the universe will spend significantly more time after the universe goes into heat death than before. We're just a blip on the radar. The real answer to why is it going the labourius proccess, is that it's not a labourious process... it just looks like that to us, because we're on a different timescale than the universe.
      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    4. Re:What fascinates me... by John+Bayko · · Score: 1

      So anyway, if all this matter is turning into energy, why didn't it just do that initially rather than go through this labourious process of creating stars, galaxies, nebulae, etc?
      Energy isn't a thing that exists on its own, it's a "property" of something, often defined as "the ability to do work" - that is, how much of an effect something can have on something else.

      A magnetic field can "have" energy, in that it can exert a force on charged particles for example (but that charged particle, in changing direction, emits a magnetic field in the opposite direction, effectively reducing the field's strength, as if it's removing the field's energy, for the duration that the field is influencing the particle). You can create one with an electric current in a wire (say, in a coil), and when you remove the current, the magnetic field will disappear, but the energy will have an effect on the wire and an electric current will be forced through the wire. Or, if you have a second coil of wire in the magnetic field, the energy will be used up driving an electric current in that one (that's how a transformer works).

      Big bang inflation can be viewed as a similar field which collapsed, causing all the effects of expanding space and generating matter with rapid motion (temperature is defined as the average kinetic energy of the particles making up something). A particle with enough kinetic energy can cause other things to happen (by collision, or interacting through fields), such as spontaneously generating another particle or radiating electromagnetic waves, and end up with less energy as a result (the other particle's mass and motion having the rest of the energy).

      The evolution of the universe is the process by which energy is being transferred from a very concentrated media to less concentrated media, "media" being matter or motion or light/radiation, and so on. But energy is only a property of that media.

  16. not science. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "String theory is the leading contender for a "theory of everything" that could unite all the forces of physics"

    No, it isn't. It makes no verifiable or falsifiable claims, and therefore isn't science.

    1. Re:not science. by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      No, it isn't. It makes no verifiable or falsifiable claims, and therefore isn't science.

      But if that were true, it couldn't very well be inconsistent with inflation, which is based upon verifiable observations about the universe, could it?

  17. How to solve it... by RulerOf · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Solve it like any government would handle an inflation problem...

    Print more strings!

    --
    Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
  18. String theory has been essentially replaced by ThinkTiM · · Score: 2, Interesting

    by M-theory. My understanding is that there are 5 different versions of 10-dimensional string theory that can be generalized to 11-dimensional M-brane theory. Not sure about the inflation thing though, I just wanted to throw in the fact that you are talking about an old theory.

    1. Re:String theory has been essentially replaced by drabgah · · Score: 0

      In current usage String Theory == M Theory. Ever since Witten and friends showed the mathematical equivalence of the various approaches to string theory, "M theory" is usually interpreted as referring to "string theory, once it is more complete and testable than currently". On the subject of grain of salt, actually reading TFA shows that this report doesn't really mean much. The fact that inflation was hard model using the particular tools chosen by these researchers can't be extrapolated to string/M theory as a whole...because as of yet all our string theories are highly approximated. In fact, an exact mathematical characerization of inflation hasn't been done successfully within ANY fully developed framework. It's almost a chicken-and-the-egg problem: explaining inflation is a key test of a correct quantum gravity theory, but without a quantum theory of gravity and cosmology we can't even be sure inflation really happened!

    2. Re:String theory has been essentially replaced by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why do I have the sudden vision of zombies shuffling around in lab coats crying out for "branes?"

    3. Re:String theory has been essentially replaced by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Why do I have the sudden vision of zombies shuffling around in lab coats crying out for "branes?"
      Probably because you read all the zombie jokes the last time M-theory was mentioned on slashdot...
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  19. Well Duh by DanielMarkham · · Score: 2, Funny

    If all the little strings are broken, it's no wonder the universe is flying apart!

  20. Resolution ruled out. by binarybum · · Score: 4, Funny

    no one is ruling out a possible resolution yet.

      Ah-hem, I am. Please let the record reflect that I was the first to do so.

    done. wake me up when there are more scientific milestones up for grabs.

    --
    ôó
  21. Sting Theory is not the only physics grand theory by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Admittedly, there is an active and very loud group which has been theorizing that string theory will - at some point in the future - provide a grand unified theory of physics that is testable.

    But there is a large and growing group of Ph.D.s who disagree, and believe that string theory is an evolutionary dead end in theoretical physics.

    It is remarkable that now they're trying to push their theories into other spheres, when their core concepts are, as yet, unproven.

    [caveat - I know this is controversial, in that many faculty and senior faculty in Physics are string theory proponents, but someone needed to point this out]

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  22. No it's not by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    String theory is the leading contender for a "theory of everything"

    Actually, not it's not. For this to be the case, it would have to predict something that is experimentally verifiable. Which has yet to be the case. All it is now is some really messy math. And even that's giving it something b/c most of it is the typical hand-wavy (read: non-rigorous) "math".

    Quite frankly, the only good thing that I see here is that there might be an end to String Theory a.k.a. the "theory" that sucks up most of the money for research even though more than 3 DECADES have gone by without /one/ bloody experimentally verifiable prediction. Perhaps after this is all said and done with, we can spend some money on some actually *promising* areas of research.

    1. Re:No it's not by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "DECADES have gone by without /one/ bloody experimentally verifiable prediction"

      Wrong.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:No it's not by stigin · · Score: 1

      You could also take the point of view that this is theoretical physics we are talking about. Combine that with the fact that purly theoretical research is cheap and your argument about sucking up money for research is going nowhere.

      On the other hand could you please point me towards some more valid competing theory. The more clause ruled out the only competitor I know about: loop quantum gravity. The later is at a no better point as string theory. Which by the way is only realy string theory in some dark corner of the M-theory moduli space.

      --
      #1) Respect the privacy of others. #2) Think before you type.
    3. Re:No it's not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For this to be the case, it would have to predict something that is experimentally verifiable. Which has yet to be the case.

      That's silliness. String theories (all of them) predict things that can be experimentally verified. The important point is, they have yet to predict something which isn't predicted by the standard model (which is simpler).

    4. Re:No it's not by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      For this to be the case, it would have to predict something that is experimentally verifiable.

      It is no harder to produce testable string models than it is to produce testable particle models (within QFT).

      The only problem is in producing string models which differ in their predictions, in an experimentally verifiable way, from those of QFT models.

      Quite frankly, the only good thing that I see here is that there might be an end to String Theory a.k.a. the "theory" that sucks up most of the money for research

      It is given the funding it has for good reason. It can do anything QFT can do, plus more, and unlike QFT it is consistent with the laws of gravity. In addition it has created new approaches to ordinary gauge theories, quantum chronodynamics, and condensed matter physics.

    5. Re:No it's not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bitter +1

  23. String Theory is Math Not Science by HiThere · · Score: 4, Insightful

    String theory isn't science, but it isn't religion either. It's math. Someday it may become science.

    Damning string theory is a bit like damning Reiman Calculus was in the 1890's. It was of no existing use. Eventually, though, Einstein found a use for it. That may happen with string theory. Or, of course, it may not.

    It is interesting that the math can be mapped onto what is known about the universe. That makes it interesting. But it can't be tested, only particular mappings can be tested. So it's math rather than physics.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    1. Re:String Theory is Math Not Science by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Damning string theory is a bit like damning Reiman Calculus was in the 1890's. It was of no existing use. Eventually, though, Einstein found a use for it. That may happen with string theory. Or, of course, it may not.

      Riemannian geometry was certainly useful prior to the advent of General Relativity, although it is true that it's application there became its prime use. Coordinate transformations and deformations in 3D did have practical purposes before 1915, for example in the deformation of 3D solids, various exotic 3D coorsinate systems, and of course in plain old 2D differential geometry.
      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    2. Re:String Theory is Math Not Science by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but those areas of math also didn't have practical applications at that time. As such, using Riemannian geometry in them doesn't count as a practical application. Good math, yes. Important math, yes. But not science. If there's no practical application (i.e., a good mapping between the math and the physical world), then it isn't science.

      Now I'll grant that "a good mapping" isn't a well-defined term...but most people think that, e.g., string theory doesn't have a good mapping. And I'd be surprised if you could show me a "good mapping" of "Coordinate transformations and deformations in 3D" in the 1890's to physical reality rather than to other areas of math. (It's quite possible...I'd just be surprised.) Something more indirect is plausible, but again I doubt it's existence.

      Anyway, here we are talking about public perception. There are some string theorists who feel that they have discovered (paraphrase)"The real mapping of string theory to physical reality". They don't have sufficient proof...but perhaps in 5-10 years they will be shown right. Then in another decade or so it may penetrate into the public perception. (Still, if that's the case I should have talked about denigrating Reimann Calculus in 1915, but I think we're further back on the curve.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  24. Inflation vs. String Theory by QuantumTheologian · · Score: 1
    From http://lanl.arxiv.org/pdf/0706.3699

    The milestone WMAP measurement is the first single, self-contained data set capable of placing meaningful constraint on the inflationary model space. Inflation has passed the test with flying colors. The basic predictions of the inflationary model are all supported by the data So at the moment, Inflation is supported by real data, whereas string theory isn't even testable.
  25. Dark Matter by jpflip · · Score: 4, Informative

    Dark matter is certainly a bizarre hypothesis, and the question you ask is natural - couldn't we just be wrong about gravity? It's somewhat easier to believe that Einstein's general relativity is modified than that the universe is filled with so much mysterious, unseen "stuff". This is the basic idea behind MOND (MOdified Newtonian Dynamics) theories, which has received a good bit of thought among physicists.

    MOND doesn't look like the right solution, however. The last 2 or 3 decades have provided an enormous amount of observational data about the structure of the universe (large scale structure, galactic dynamics, gravitational lensing, light element abundances, the cosmic microwave background...), all of which is basically consistent with the simplest dark matter model ("cold dark matter") and inconsistent with any modified gravity theory. We don't need to imagine any particularly exotic properties to the dark matter, it just needs to be something that doesn't interact with electromagnetic forces (just like a neutrino only much heavier). Even very complicated MOND models fail to match observations, however (unless you add in a bunch of dark matter anyway).

    Perhaps the most striking example is provided by observations of the Bullet Cluster last year. Basically we've found a pair of colliding galaxy clusters where the collision has separated the dark matter from the ordinary matter somewhat. Skipping over the details, this provides dramatic evidence that dark matter is real "stuff" - in essentially any modified gravity theory without dark matter, the gravitational forces still have to be coming from the same place as the visible matter! This is a very general argument, and observations like this have more or less put the nail in the coffin of MOND theories.

    Astrophysicists are almost universally convinced at this point that something like dark matter exists. We're starting to map its distribution in detail throughout the universe, and the next major challenge will be determining its makeup - either by production in an accelerator or detection in dedicated experiments.

  26. If it can't be tested, it's not science... by Joce640k · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If it can't be tested, it's not science...it's pseudoscience.

    String theory is the sort of intellectual game normally played by religions. There's always a part which can never be tested or disproved and that's where you'll end up if you start a "debate". An impasse is the best you can ever achieve if you try.

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:If it can't be tested, it's not science... by pclminion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it can't be tested, it's not science...it's pseudoscience.

      String theory makes tons of predictions, all of which align perfectly well with reality. So in that sense, it is testable. However, is does not (yet) predict anything that HASN'T ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED by other theories. It meshes PERFECTLY with our observations. But nobody has yet used it to predict something that has never been observed before.

      Calling string theory "untestable" is ignorant. It makes extremely concrete predictions which are borne out in reality.

    2. Re:If it can't be tested, it's not science... by stigin · · Score: 1

      Hum,

      Actually, you are wrong. At this point string theory does NOT incorporate perfectly all observations that can be explained by any of the following theories:

      - The standard model
      - General Relativity

      That being about the only two (actually one can ommit the about) most basic theories, we can safely assume ST does not mesh perfectly with reality yet.

      Otherwise I would appreciate pointers to an approriate paper.

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    3. Re:If it can't be tested, it's not science... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      "But nobody has yet used it to predict something that has never been observed before."

      And that's the problem!

      "Calling string theory "untestable" is ignorant. It makes extremely concrete predictions which are borne out in reality."

      A certain proverb about carts and horses comes to mind...

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    4. Re:If it can't be tested, it's not science... by pclminion · · Score: 1

      And that's the problem!

      Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't. I'm not exactly holding my breath for it, but string theory hardly falls into the category of "crackpot science." It receives government funding for jab's sake.

    5. Re:If it can't be tested, it's not science... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Otherwise I would appreciate pointers to an approriate paper.

      Why don't we start off with you providing references for your claim that "string theory does NOT incorporate perfectly all observations that can be explained by" the SM and GR?

    6. Re:If it can't be tested, it's not science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't. I'm not exactly holding my breath for it, but string theory hardly falls into the category of "crackpot science." It receives government funding for jab's sake.

        Oh god, the Randroids! They're coming for you now! Quick, run! I'll try to hold them off as long as I can! Hurry!

        Uhhhh.. Hey everybody, I'm a libertarian socialist! Yeah, that's right, I believe in big government and no government at the same time! I'm a lazy bum who wants to redistribute your toothbrush to good-for-nothing poor people! Stalin is teh awesome!

    7. Re:If it can't be tested, it's not science... by pclminion · · Score: 1

      I'm totally clueless as to what you mean. My point is that if you're competing against a bunch of other scientists for funding and you win, it JUST MIGHT mean that you're not COMPLETELY nuts.

      But go ahead and label me a "socialist" if you want. Although I don't see how politics is even relevant.

    8. Re:If it can't be tested, it's not science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a joke. You implied that government funding is evidence that something is good science, which means you think government is actually good for something -- and even hinting that government is good for anything at all will generally bring the Libertarian Party crackpots down upon you en masse here at /.

      Hence I warned that the "Randroids" would be coming for you, and offered to hold them off with a bit of bait, while you made your escape.

  27. Sure it can by RelliK · · Score: 4, Funny

    They'll just add 5 more dimensions.

    --
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  28. Both Theories sound made up by z-j-y · · Score: 0

    Inflation theory sounds more made up. I don't know anything of course so I'm just talking from my ass, but inflation theory describes a single event happened in the distant past, base on some observations and some theories - the question is, what theories? We don't have a good theory of universe yet.

    String theory doesn't need to be consistent with the inflation theory. It only has to give a good explanations of current observables. If it does that, it can infer whatever past event in its own framework. But then I heard that it can explain any imaginable universe, well...

    God has a sense of humor. Either human live with stupid theories with many arbitrary variables, and with an elegant theory with many arbitrary equations.

    1. Re:Both Theories sound made up by ultracool · · Score: 1
      Well, inflation theory has some evidence backing it up. It's not "just made up".

      String theory is still just a bunch of fancy math. It literally started with a couple of guys saying "Hey, what if everything is made of tiny, vibrating strings?" It might be elegant, but without *any* physical evidence supporting it, it might forever be condemned to the realm of mathematics, not physics.

  29. Re:Sting Theory is not the only physics grand theo by geekoid · · Score: 1

    What? What other spheres? In order to be a grand unified theory, it must account for inflation, or either: String Theory is wrong or There is no inflation.

    Your 'large and growing group of Ph.D.s' aside, it has the best promise of being a method to quantize gravity. There are other methods that should be researched as well, loop quantum gravity springs to mind.

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  30. Re:Sting Theory is not the only physics grand theo by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Much promise, but few deliverables.

    I predict in ten years we'll hear much more about how string theory will be proven in the future, with measureable repeatable observations.

    But never today. Always the future.

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  31. Wrong by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Not being falsifiable is a strong indicator, but that doesn't mean it is incorrect, or pseudo science. Scientific method is being used. It correlates with what we see, just like the theory of gravity in it's infancy. I use that example, not to compare it to gravity, only to explain there is often a period of time before an observation is put to a falsifiable test.

    I am always glad to see people looking our for pseudoscience, but it does need to be tempered with thought.

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  32. Re:Sting Theory is not the only physics grand theo by pclminion · · Score: 1

    Admittedly, there is an active and very loud group which has been theorizing that string theory will - at some point in the future - provide a grand unified theory of physics that is testable.

    If there is indeed a "theory of everything," it may be so far outside the range of our current intellect that the complete development of the theory could take centuries. If we are willing to throw away anything just because it hasn't made a new prediction within 30 years, we might be dooming ourselves to NEVER figure it out.

  33. Inflation was a kludge - get rid of it by The+Fun+Guy · · Score: 1

    Inflation was introduced because the presumptive model of the Big Bang says that the universe sprang from an infinitesimally small point. At some time later, the expansion rate of the universe is thought to have changed. This change in expansion rate (inflation) was required by the assumption about the point-source of the Big Bang, working backwards from what we see around us today.

    But what if the Big Bang was not a point source?

    If the universe (the one that we see and experience in our daily lives, anyway) was created when two branes slapped together, there's no reason to think that that had to take place within a single infinitesimal point. If this contact took place over a larger region of space, the diameter of a single hydrogen atom, for example, then "inflation" isn't necessary.

    So, replace Big Bang with Big Slap, and get rid of inflation.

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    1. Re:Inflation was a kludge - get rid of it by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 1

      Dude, the very mention of a brane can get you a perma-ban from /.

      The very fact that you're disputing an obvious kludge like inflation can be hazardous to your health.

      But I agree with you, (although I'm far from a physicist) inflation has always seemed like "WTF happened here? Well, it's this crazy thing you see, and we'll select some data to go with it. Heck, we'll even throw some dark matter in there too."
      People should remember that there was a time, not so long ago, when everyone knew that heavens revolve around the Earth. One could see it and predict it with their very eyes!

      Long fucking live string theory, and all the non-predictable stuff that goes with it.

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  34. You couldn't be more right by geekoid · · Score: 1

    when you said :"I'm just talking from my ass,"
    God is Pseudoscience.

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  35. Yes -- and it can also accommodate not-inflation! by IntelliTubbie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of the sharpest critiques of string theory is that it isn't really one theory -- it's many, many theories (something like 10^500), depending on how the hidden dimensions are wrapped up. It looks like this study showed that a certain flavor of string theory (IIA) might not be able to accommodate inflation -- but not to worry, the string theorists say, there are plenty of other flavors of string theory that might indeed allow inflation after all! But therein lies the problem: no matter how an experiment turns out, one can cook up a version of string theory that agrees with it! What we really need is a meta-theory (M-theory?) that tells us *which* string theory to use, but so far it doesn't exist. This is why some critics call string theory a "theory of anything."

    Cheers,
    IT

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  36. String theory vs inflation by jmv · · Score: 1

    Some say this could even lead to the abandonment of either string theory or inflation

    So if the facts don't match the theory, just abandon the facts. Sounds like a neat idea. It should at least make it *much* easier to come up with a "theory of everything".

    1. Re:String theory vs inflation by z-j-y · · Score: 1

      Inflation is a fact?

    2. Re:String theory vs inflation by jmv · · Score: 1

      In the weak sense I guess. Feel free to substitute "observation". In any case, it sounds bad to me (hopefully it's just bad reporting).

  37. People are dismisive by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Because it is ridiculous.

    I might as well said it was created by an Invisible Pink Pony that lives on the moon. Then complain no one take me serious.

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  38. Re:Sting Theory is not the only physics grand theo by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    If there is indeed a "theory of everything," it may be so far outside the range of our current intellect that the complete development of the theory could take centuries. If we are willing to throw away anything just because it hasn't made a new prediction within 30 years, we might be dooming ourselves to NEVER figure it out.

    Exactly.

    The main problem many have with the devotion to string theory is that we have a lot of highly-educated thinkers devoted to a theory that may have neither practical applications nor usable physical methods within their own lifetimes.

    Perhaps a wiser choice, as a society, would be to limit those studying string theory to a smaller fraction of physicists, while retasking the rest to more rewarding areas of theoretical physics that might have some use to us as a society.

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  39. Please, please... by posterlogo · · Score: 1
    ...let it be string theory that gets booted. The only scientific research into string theory that should be ongoing is that which seeks to determine whether or not string theory is even falsifiable. If it is not, you may as well call it a religion or shuffle it over to the philosophy department. I'm not so thirsty for a quantum theory of gravity that I'll buy into this voodoo.


    Some say this could even lead to the abandonment of either string theory or inflation, though no one is ruling out a possible resolution yet.

    1. Re:Please, please... by ioshhdflwuegfh · · Score: 1

      ...let it be string theory that gets booted. The only scientific research into string theory that should be ongoing is that which seeks to determine whether or not string theory is even falsifiable. If it is not, you may as well call it a religion or shuffle it over to the philosophy department. I'm not so thirsty for a quantum theory of gravity that I'll buy into this voodoo. aha, we have a Popperian here!
  40. Re:Sting Theory is not the only physics grand theo by stigin · · Score: 1

    Actually, I protest. About any decent physics department on earth has more people not working on string theory than people who do. Heck, I even know some universities that don't have string theory group.

    Problem is that the other fields are far more difficult to explain and draw little to no attention.

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  41. On the contrary, by Verte · · Score: 2, Interesting

    String theory is probably the only theory that really supports inflation. If the net energy in the universe is constant, then the net curvature must be constant, therefore it could only appear smaller if curvature were balanced between other dimensions.

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  42. Universe expansion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into and why isn't that considered part of the universe?

    1. Re:Universe expansion by mdenham · · Score: 1

      The question has no actual merit to it - it's like asking why, when you blow up a balloon, the surrounding room isn't counted as part of the balloon because that's where the balloon's surface is expanding into. The answer, of course, is simply that it isn't part of the balloon. Likewise with the universe. Think of it as the "surface" (in THREE dimensions, not four, folks) of a 3-sphere (a 4-dimensional object - a bowling ball is a pretty good model of a 2-sphere). The surface continues to expand because the "interior" is being inflated - but the interior isn't itself part of the universe as we know it. Yes, I realize I've basically given a half-assed summary of the holographic principle here (possibly in reverse).

  43. remarks from the fray by sdedeo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm not a string theorist, but I am a cosmologist. Here are some thoughts:

    Inflation has not been "confirmed" in away way. It's the best explanation for a very very limited number of datapoints we have on the "early" Universe. Very smart people (e.g., Sean Carroll, now at CalTech) have made convincing cases that inflation is actually incoherent in important ways. I have spent quite a bit of time trying to come up with alternatives to inflation, and it's damn hard -- it "works" very well, in the sense that it solves a bunch of problems all at once that are hard to solve individually. But it does invoke plenty of nonstandard physics we've never seen in the Universe, let alone the lab.

    Inflation and dark energy are deeply connected. They both require something called "negative pressure". Negative pressure is bizarre, and actually is from a Newtonian perspective a violation of the conservation of energy (in General Relativity, energy is not conserved -- rather a complicated combination of numbers some of which refer to what we'd measure as energy is conserved.) Negative pressure means that if you take a box of the stuff, and let it expand, at the end of the day there's actually more stuff in there than you started with.

    String theory should better be known as "a collection of approaches." It does not have the coherence of, say General Relativity, which is a mathematically closed system. Talking about "giving up string theory" is kind of dumb -- essentially what you are saying is "do not try to do the following large class of calculation." There are definitely competitors to string theory, but none have captured the attention of a highly fractious community the way string theory has.

    Not sure if anyone's still reading this thread, but I'm happy to talk more about it. Reply with questions if you like!

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    1. Re: remarks from the fray by Dolda2000 · · Score: 1

      Not sure if anyone's still reading this thread, but I'm happy to talk more about it. Reply with questions if you like!
      Then, let me take you up on that offer!

      I don't know half the physics I'd like to know, but I have at least been reading some popular science books about string theory, and in my understanding, even M-theory suffers from the fact that you can choose an almost arbitrary geometry of the new dimensions (from a certain class of geometries) and receive a theory about a certain universe; the hope being that finding the right geometry will yield our universe (though I'm sure there are other parameters as well). Even so, the foremost touted advantage of string theory seems to be that it eliminates the necessity of arbitrarily chosen constants for a variety of phenomena, as is present in quantum field theories.

      Maybe I've misunderstood something fundamentally, but I don't understand how the choice of a geometry of the dimensions can be considered less arbitrary than the choice of particle masses. I know you said that you aren't a string theorist, but you seem to have a greater idea of the theory than I have, at least. I'm really hoping you can answer that question!

    2. Re:remarks from the fray by drabgah · · Score: 1

      Do you think 'uniqueness' has any validity as a criterion for evaluating a theory in the absence of experimental evidence? Some writers seem to think the fact that inflationary expansion has been modeled in a multitude of ways via more than one mechanism is an indication it might not be valid, because it requires too much fine-tuning. The same has been said of the incredible variety of different approaches to string theory, for instance the inability to choose a preferred calabi-yau geometry for the extra dimensions. I've heard that one of the reasons that electroweak unification was accepted quickly was that it seemed to be the only renormalizable theory of its type.

      Should we be looking for a cosmological model that produces a unique prediction of the universe with the characteristics we observe, or should we rely on the antropic principle to put is in the 'right' universe out of a huge variety of theoretically possible cosmological evolutions (which I understand to be a popular perspective in the 'continuous inflation' camp.)

    3. Re:remarks from the fray by rjh · · Score: 1
      Some questions for a practicing cosmologist, then--please don't think that I'm looking for concrete and solid answers (except where such things unambiguously exist); I'm interested in opinion as much as fact, provided the two are carefully distinguished from each other. :)

      So:
      1. What do you think of Lee Smolin's The Trouble With Physics? Are his criticisms of string theory on target? What about how string theory has changed the culture of cosmology?
      2. My understanding of science is that theories must explain observed phenomena, predict future phenomena, and provide realistic ways in which a theory may be falsified. Given that:
        1. Is this a reasonable definition of what must go into a cosmological theory?
        2. Can string theory be said to be a "theory" at all, given that with 10**500 possible different cosmoses it's possible to explain away any correlation or discorrelation just as "we're looking at the [right|wrong] universe"?
      3. I'm not a cosmologist; my knowledge of physics is limited to the GR and QM I took as an undergrad. However, I always loved the background independence of GR. The last I heard, the various string theories were background dependent. Is this as big a problem as I suspect it is? If not, why not?
      ... As you can probably imagine, I have deep skepticism about string theory. However, all of these questions are sincere ones, and I would very much appreciate any light you can shed on them.

      If it helps, I'm a Ph.D. candidate in computer science. You can use calculus in your answers without worrying about losing me, along with tensors and vectors and most any other mathematical tool that will help. You'll need to explain phrases like "Minkowski space" and whatnot, though. :)

      And one final question, too: how can us CS nerds on our side of academia help you cosmology nerds on your side of academia?
    4. Re:remarks from the fray by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      Very smart people...

      One of the problems with being "very smart" is that explaining yourself to the dumber people becomes impossible. And I know what you're thinking now: "this pipingguy thinks he's real smart. What an asshole, what he wrote didn't make any sense."

      See what I mean?

    5. Re:remarks from the fray by sdedeo · · Score: 2, Informative

      three questions to answer! I will go in order.

      1. I have many many positive things to say about Lee. He is a terrific guy, and one thing he deserves special praise for is that he loves talking to, and taking seriously, younger researchers like me. I buttonholed him on his last vist and we talked for a while about my inflation alternative and he was critical but also encouraging -- a hard note to strike.

      Lee is also a great "cherrypicker", he finds neat things in different parts of physics and brings them in. We actually had (twenty or thirty years apart) stumbled on a couple unusual facts in the literature for condensed matter and had a good chat about applying them to cosmology. That said (you could see this coming huh?) Lee's criticisms of string theory have angered a lot of string theorists -- and in such a way that I think Lee maybe should take some of the blame for being overly confrontational.

      String theory these days is looking for ideas and data, and so lots of people do so-called "string cosmology". It is very much in its infancy, and many (including myself) consider it something to dabble in but not to build a career on (yet.)

      2. cosmology has some "big" questions. Essentially, many all boil down to some uber fine tuning. The universe needs to be expanding at just the right rate to have survived this long, and it's very strange that it is. To put it another way, OK: we believe that when the universe was very young, all the physics had to do with the very tiny Planck scale -- the scale at which quantum fluctuations form black holes. You can just combine the constants G, c, and h together in different ways to get the length, time and mass associated with this phenomenon. For example, if you accelerated an electron until it's (relativistic) mass became about 10^-5 grams and crashed it in to something, you would expect that in order to describe the event correctly you would need to describe how the crash produced miniblackholes.

      So instead of making the Planck mass, change the constants around to get the Planck time. It's unbelievably short -- 10^-44 seconds. We expect all the physics back then to have roughly this timescale. Basically, you assume that whatever the equations are, the terms are going to have dimensionless coefficients of order unity, and then the rest pops out. (In the same way, say you had a funny oscillating system -- not a simple harmonic oscillator, but something wayyy more complicated. There will still be a constant in there with dimensions (force)/(distance), call it "k", and there will be a mass for the system. From that you can make a rough guess at the period -- sqrt(m/k) is the only combination that gives you time.) Sorry to belabor this if it's obvious to you!

      Anyway, there's something glaringly obvious. The Planck time (10^-44) is much smaller than the age of the Universe today (10 billion years.) How did the physics back then "conspire" to give an answer so wildly different? That's how we know it's going to be a tough problem.

      As for the 10^500 thing -- that's the question of the string theory "landscape". The basic thing is that string theory is a perturbative theory right now (one of Lee's big criticisms, and potentially very valid, although it's how every other non-gravitational quantum theory works) -- you can basically do calculations against a "background". Perturb the background a little, and gravitons are produced -- string theory can tell you their scattering amplitude, a massive victory. We used to think that the choice of the background would end up being "obvious". Now there's the suggestion that there are maybe 10^500 different choices and it makes a difference. Still a controversial thesis however!

      3. Ah, yes, I see you already know about this whole background thing. I think Lee is going down a bit of a rabbit hole with the whole background indepedence thing. We've been doing thing perturbatively for years, and it's enabled us to calculate all sorts of things that go on in colliders (although

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    6. Re: remarks from the fray by sdedeo · · Score: 1

      Well, I see some of the secrets have leaked out!

      Yes, this is definitely a question -- the problem of how to configure the background, see my previous comment to this one (in time) about the "landscape." But you have exhausted my knowledge of the string theory side of things to a certain extent. Sorry I can't be more helpful on this!

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    7. Re:remarks from the fray by sdedeo · · Score: 1

      Sean's also a good friend, and I like people to think I have smart friends! And, while he is very smart, he is also a terrific explainer. Check his blog!

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    8. Re:remarks from the fray by sdedeo · · Score: 1

      The anthropic principle -- I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. That way lies madness. To me it is a fundamental abdication of the scientific method. To put it another way, we could have invoked the anthropic principle at any point in the history of physics. Why is gravity an inverse square law? Because if not the solar system would have different properties and it would be unable to support life. (That's not a perfect example, but it's OK I think.) Literally. It's a universal tool. If we did, we'd have stopped science in its tracks. As bizarre as it seems, looking for deeper explanations than the anthropic principle can ever provide has paid off for centuries.

      If you're still interested in the anthropic principle and want to go deeper despite my rather condescending tone above, consider Boltzmann brains. The problem is that if you believe Boltzmann brains are logically possible (and I do), then you would use the anthropic principle to predict a very different kind of universe. In other words, you disprove empirically the anthropic principle!

      As for uniqueness question. I think inflation is more of a "paradigm" (ugh) or "mechanism" than a theory. Nobody really believes the details of anybody's particular inflation model. That's one of the reasons why I was looking for alternatives: because maybe alternatives would have less wiggle room. But it's so damn hard, and the mechanism works so well -- it's just that one of its effects is to "wipe out" most of the information that could tell us how it worked!

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    9. Re:remarks from the fray by rjh · · Score: 1

      Thank you very much for the depth of your response. I wish I had more to say right now, but I'm going to have to spend some time just digesting your answers. :)

    10. Re: remarks from the fray by ioshhdflwuegfh · · Score: 1

      Maybe I've misunderstood something fundamentally, but I don't understand how the choice of a geometry of the dimensions can be considered less arbitrary than the choice of particle masses. I know you said that you aren't a string theorist, but you seem to have a greater idea of the theory than I have, at least. I'm really hoping you can answer that question! The fundamental point of string theory is: It is less arbitrary than the Standard Model in the sense that now you have a theory that includes gravity, which, let me remind you, is insoluble by just adding some "masses" or parameters or quantum fields into the standard quantum field theory. So, even though there is still a big problem of choosing the right geometry as you say, there is also one fundamental step taken, that of inclusion of gravity at the microscopic level.
    11. Re:remarks from the fray by ioshhdflwuegfh · · Score: 1

      Nerds across America! If you're interested, we have the biggest fucking data sets of all time. Terabytes upon terabytes, piling up and we can't handle it. Literal jumbo jets full of tapes. I know there are many many astronomy departments trying to find new ways to drill through these things. What kind of data is on the tapes?
    12. Re:remarks from the fray by tdwebste · · Score: 1

      I am not a physicist. I am just looking for pointers to information, pun not intended.

      What I am really curious about is the conservation or non-conservation of information? What events cause the creation or destruction of information?

      As the universe expands and as information does not expand or does not expand as quickly, increased disorder is required. Is increasing disorder a driving force, rather than the result?

    13. Re:remarks from the fray by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      Very smart people (e.g., Sean Carroll, now at CalTech) have made convincing cases that inflation is actually incoherent in important ways. ... since when?

      As late as 2005, he was proposing to explain why "a universe like ours is likely to have begun via a period of inflation". I don't remember reading any papers of his demonstrating that "inflation is incoherent".

    14. Re: remarks from the fray by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      Maybe I've misunderstood something fundamentally, but I don't understand how the choice of a geometry of the dimensions can be considered less arbitrary than the choice of particle masses.

      Right now, it is arbitrary (though some hope that the dynamics of string theory will ultimately reveal some geometries to be much more likely than others).

      In practice, you have to make arbitrary choices either way. The difference is only in principle: with a bunch of fundamental constants that you have to put in by hand, you can never hope to have an explanation of their values. With string theory, there's just one theory and everything is in principle determined by its unique dynamics, although in practice it may be impossible to actually calculate those values.

    15. Re:remarks from the fray by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      Your questions weren't addressed to me, but ...

      What do you think of Lee Smolin's The Trouble With Physics? Are his criticisms of string theory on target?

      I haven't read the book, but if you dig through Jacques Distler's blog, he doesn't come off too well when defending them. If you tell me which specific criticisms you had in mind, I might know more about those.

      What about how string theory has changed the culture of cosmology?

      Can't say.

      My understanding of science is that theories must explain observed phenomena, predict future phenomena, and provide realistic ways in which a theory may be falsified. Given that:
      Is this a reasonable definition of what must go into a cosmological theory?


      Sure.

      Can string theory be said to be a "theory" at all, given that with 10**500 possible different cosmoses it's possible to explain away any correlation or discorrelation just as "we're looking at the [right|wrong] universe"?

      String theory is a framework within which you can write down specific models. So is quantum field theory. The Standard Model is one such example of a QFT model. You can write down string models like the Standard Model too. They are no less predictive or scientific. The issue is whether you can write down string models which can be experimentally distinguished from existing QFT models. If you can, then string theory is useful. If you can't, then it's not as useful, but it's also no less scientific than QFT. You can write down infinitely many QFT models.

      The last I heard, the various string theories were background dependent. Is this as big a problem as I suspect it is? If not, why not?

      The underlying M theory does not depend on any specific choice of background, as specific string theories are equivalent to other string theories in completely different backgrounds. Perturbing about a specific background is computationally convenient, but not an essential part of string theory.

    16. Re:remarks from the fray by sdedeo · · Score: 1

      This is data coming from an observatory -- i.e., off of a CCD or other kind of detector. Even after it's reduced to, say, a list of galaxies and information about them, however, there is still an enormous amount of it.

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    17. Re:remarks from the fray by sdedeo · · Score: 1

      Here's his stuff on "inflation and its discontents." Sean -- of course, he's not sitting here, so really "Sean according to Simon" -- doesn't want to dump inflation, but rather considers the standard story about how it works to be flawed. He wraps this up in a much larger thesis on the origin of the arrow of time. But you're right that Sean is not claiming that all inflation stories are wrong, and I was wrong to suggest that.

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    18. Re:remarks from the fray by deltacephei · · Score: 1

      Negative pressure means that if you take a box of the stuff, and let it expand, at the end of the day there's actually more stuff in there than you started with.

      Does this further imply that changing the direction of time makes this a reversible process such that the original amount would be recovered?

  44. Evolving graphs give inflation easily by ynotds · · Score: 1

    Smolin, Wolfram and others consider evolving graph-theoretic networks as a more likely base model for a theory of everything.

    My first, and to-date only, experiment with a simplest-of-class evolving graph very soon produced a good analogy of inflation.

    (Before I figured out what was going on, this 'inflation' had the side effect of making my puter seem to 'go away' even when I capped the clock at ten ticks ... an interesting experience which helped inspire my OSDC 2004 'Design on the Fly' paper (PDF) and slides (S^5 HTML).)

    --
    -- Our systemic servants do not good masters make.
  45. maybe... by silvermorph · · Score: 0

    I don't supposed that inflation is just the perceived rate of expansion, looking faster in hindsight because it was occurring within a very tiny pocket of terrifically distended spacetime. Then again, IANANuclearPhysicist. :)

  46. Not so constant "Universal constants" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember some Australian dude finding some discrepancies in light observed from far far way galaxies. and his conclusion was that either the electron-proton mass ratio or the speed of light has changed over the course of time. if c has changed (slowed?) over the life of universe then faster-than-current-c travel does not seem mysterious at all.

  47. String Theory Inflation Mechanisms by muon1183 · · Score: 1

    The article seems to be sorely lacking in details, and when it finally does mention the specific models, it seems that they only actually tried to get inflation out of toroidally compactified Type IIa String Theory, claiming that this was generic. If anything, this is the opposite of a generic situation. Toroidal compactifications preserve far too much supersymmetry to be generic, and as the article mentions, there are other reasons to expect that inflation won't be visible in the IIa theory. Additionally, the article fails to mention that there are a number of inflationary mechanisms in string theory that seem to be quite generic. Included in these are KKLT, KKLMMT, Brane Inflation, DBI Inflation, and many more stringy inflation models which I haven't mentioned. In fact, if anything, the problem currently seems to be that there are too many viable inflationary models in string theory.

    --

    There's no sig like SIGSEG
  48. This is a bizarre posting by Bloater · · Score: 0

    inflation is a feature of the big bang theory to explain observed phenomena. It is not an observed phenomena itself and need not be explained. String theory doesn't need to have the same features as big bang - it just needs to explain the same observed phenomena.

    It seems science really *is* dead after all.

    1. Re:This is a bizarre posting by anandsr · · Score: 1

      MOD Parent up.

      This is really very important to not lose track of what is an observed phenomena and what is an "inferred" phenomena, based on current theories to explain other observations.

      Similarly Big Bang is not an Observed Phenomena, but expansion of the universe is an observed phenomena, which along with other phenomena predict a Big Bang.

      To put this in perspective even Dark Matter and Dark Energy are not observed phenomena, they are simply inferred to explain galactic and extra galactic rotation curves, and accelerating cosmic expansion respectively.

      There are so many inferred phenomena that it is quite possible to get convinced of the inferred phenomena as if it was an observed phenomena.

    2. Re:This is a bizarre posting by Bloater · · Score: 1

      ... expansion of the universe is an observed phenomena ...

      There are so many inferred phenomena that it is quite possible to get convinced of the inferred phenomena as if it was an observed phenomena. Indeed! The expansion of the universe is an inferred phenomena - we cannot see it growing because it is too big. We see a variety of spectra from a variety of resolvable features in our telescopes and infer, rightly or wrongly, that everything is moving away from us and from *that* inference then infer that the entire universe is expanding.
  49. Breaking news! by FridayBob · · Score: 2, Funny

    Cosmologists are finding that it is impossible to square string theory with Einstein's theory of General Relativity after all. Some say this could even lead to the abandonment General Relativity...


    ... if only to ensure that string theorists
    around the world do not lose their jobs.

  50. Questions! by tjstork · · Score: 1

    For example there has been ongoing debate for many years now between people who are searching for dark matter and proponents of MOND.

    Just some questions about the above:

    a) If MOND is about an extremely small acceleration in F=MA, couldn't that be experimentally verified rather quickly by putting a paperclip a certain distance from the moon or the earth? Or something like that. MOND is something like I would have hacked in CMP252 and seems like it can't possibly be right.

    b) I'm assuming that they measure the rotation of a galaxy by looking at its stars red shift? But, what if, for whatever reason, stars farther out from the center of the galaxy just happened to be older / younger, so that, they would have a different color of light but not necessarily be doppler shifted? Or is my understanding of red shift completely wrong - like you know that there ought to be a hydrogen line at a certain spot, but if its moved over, you know what the shift is? Is star light that precisely measured from millions of light years away?

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Questions! by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      > like you know that there ought to be a hydrogen line at a certain spot, but if its moved over, you know what the shift is?

      Right. You take light from a telescope, and you pass it through a prism (well, a diffraction grating). This splits the light up into it's colors (wavelengths). You know the hydrogen line should be at a certain point, and if it's moved then the object is moving - a doppler shift.

      For a rotating galaxy, one side would be moving away, and the other side would be moving towards us, relative to the 'average'. Thus you'd get a wider hydrogen line than normal. The width of the line tells us the rotation speed.

      > Is star light that precisely measured from millions of light years away?
      Sure, it doesn't change as it travels through space.

    2. Re:Questions! by tjstork · · Score: 1

      Right. You take light from a telescope...

      Could this sort of a simulation work? Just to write for my own education, simulate a simple galaxy?

      start out with a 100,000 or a million bodies of varying mass distributed in a rough sphere or some other arbitrary shape, and calculate the gravitational attraction between all of them. You should be able to crunch that in a second or so, if you use a fast computer and SSE to do F=M1*M2/d^2. That would give you the magnitude of an attraction vector basically. From there, you apply the accelerations, keep track of the velocities, and you should see things rolling along. Then, given the velocities, you could throw up a simulated spectrum with the red shift using doppler equations, based upon where you highlight...

      --
      This is my sig.
    3. Re:Questions! by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      It's hard to go from the acceleration at some time t and velocity at time t, then predict the velocity at time t+1. You might initially think to just do velocity + acceleration*timestep but the trouble is that errors quickly get introduced. Instead you have integrate over the time, numerically.

      Also a million bodies is a pretty small galaxy. A typical average galaxy is more like a 10^11 stars - a hundred billion stars.
      But even if you have a million stars say, then to calculate the gravitational force between them is a fully connected mesh problem - so that's (n^2+n)/2 = half a trillion. That's a lot of calculations ;)

      My job is actually to maintain a large computer cluster for doing exactly these types of calculations, for simulating the big bang.

      For the doppler equations however, just looking at the width will tell you directly the speed of the outermost stars in a galaxy. if you know the size of the galaxy, you can thus find out the rotational speed.

    4. Re:Questions! by tjstork · · Score: 1

      It's hard to go from the acceleration at some time t and velocity at time t, then predict the velocity at time t+1. You might initially think to just do velocity + acceleration*timestep but the trouble is that errors quickly get introduced. Instead you have integrate over the time, numerically

      So.. basically, this step means, if I can remember my calculus right, is that you are taking a to be a variable term when you calculate gravity... so you solve the differential equation, numerically, that considers the gravitational attraction and the change in the attraction as the bodies move ever so slightly towards each other.

      But even if you have a million stars say, then to calculate the gravitational force between them is a fully connected mesh problem - so that's (n^2+n)/2 = half a trillion. That's a lot of calculations ;)

      actually, a half a trillion calculations isn't out of reach for a GPU... it's just that solving the differential equations as you described above and doing it for every point on the mesh is real deal breaker.

      Thank you very much for your time. I think I actually will write my simple galaxy simulator more so, now, then less!

      Of course, it will be open source, so maybe you can laugh it when I finish it!

      --
      This is my sig.
  51. Do we really need a "theory of everything"... by russlar · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I mean, it has already been determined that 42 is the Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything, right? The real question of inflation should be "Can the Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything be expanded into the Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Multiverse, and Everything?"

    --
    Anybody want my mod points?
    1. Re:Do we really need a "theory of everything"... by MLease · · Score: 1

      Of course! It's 1764.

      -Mike

      --
      I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
  52. The strings were broken when the universe was by crovira · · Score: 1

    flying apart but they're all knotted again and that's the part the string theorists don't like; being in a strange, topless/bottomless joint without any charm at all.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
  53. Let's skip ahead a few decades by SlappyBastard · · Score: 1

    And just get rid of both string theory AND inflation.

    --
    I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
  54. Inflation is not proven by Old+Wolf · · Score: 1

    Inflation is only a tentative theory, that has no evidence in favour of it. People only believe it because it is supposedly a 'simple' explanation of some things that we can observe today (e.g. uniformity of the microwave background). However it is not so simple; e.g. there is no firm theory of what caused inflation to start in the first place.

    It gets talked up a lot more than it is actually worth.

    1. Re:Inflation is not proven by aminorex · · Score: 1

      One might say the same of dark matter; however, I find dark matter much more acceptable than inflation, and IIa is also inconsistent with dark matter.

      Actually, inflation seems to fail of Occam's Razor alone. The notion that the universe expanded faster than the speed of light is a bit of a....dare I say....stretch?

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  55. Re:Spaghetti Stringy Theory by aqk · · Score: 1

    >> Noodles are weak, wimpy string posers unable to carry...

    It's "poseurs", you big brutish freedom-fry eating macho pirate!

    And while we're at it, I always preferred the term "Flying Pasta Monster" - so much more an elegant
    label for an elegant theory.


  56. Re:Yes -- and it can also accommodate not-inflatio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, I bet "string theory" can accomodate not only inflating universe, but stable universe, contracting universe, break-dancing universe, drunken-style kung-fu universe, you name it.

    Perhaps it's time to switch the terminology - stop using the umbrella term "string theory" and the theoreticians won't be so ridiculed by lay public (e.g., /. crowds).

  57. Sure! by YumYumClownMonkey · · Score: 1

    String theory can accomodate any observation, because it's a Chimera: Just dicker with the dimensions and any empirical inconsistencies evaporate like a fart in the wind. Add or subtract a dimension, change the way the "strings" curl around all the phantom dimensions, and nearly any conclusion is possible. That's why string theory is unable to make a single falsifiable prediction: It makes lots of them, and then when they turn out to be false, the theorists just twist the strings in a different direction.

  58. Re:String Theory hypnotism by neutrino38 · · Score: 1

    Mmmm the comment above reminds me of a discussion with a colleage that had a major in physics.
    He just finished a book about string theory that indeed supported this point of view:

    The author (don't ask me the name, I am unable to remember) worked on early string theory himself. However, he later doubted his very work as no experimental proof could sustain it. He also mentioned the mathematical beauty of string theory and the fact that people became enamoured with it rather than looking for experimental proofs. This hypnotism lead a number of proeminent physiscist to accept this as the Truth and the author says that it is now very difficult not to "believe" in string theory in labs as you would be catalogued as outsider and therefor have more touble to get researtch funding.

    Not beeing in the field, I would not be competent to judge this. However, fundamental physiscs is pretty intersting as an amateur.

    One of this out of the boxes ideas was that he would introduce another limitation beside the c speed limit and the quantic physics uncertainties ( speed / position) : he states that space itself is not a continum but dimentions cannot be lower than the planck constant and that any system that is smaller to this dimensions is outside physics laws and cannot be understood because such a system would be below an event horison that would bar every attempts for any measurement.

    Doing that he make the supposition that black may be systems where matters collapses below this limit and then could be the singularity that COULD trigger another big bang in another dimension.

    Seems to be very wild to me but the ideas are fascinating.

  59. But who knows... by wolf369T · · Score: 0

    ...maybe AnsiString will accomodate inflation!

  60. Re:String Theory hypnotism by Wanderer2 · · Score: 1

    The book sounds like Lee Smolin's The Trouble With Physics which I read a couple of months ago.

    Then again, it also sounds like Peter Woit's Not Even Wrong which I've not read.

    There is a growing trend of slagging off string theory and string theorists :)

    --
    I say we take-off and slashdot the site from orbit... it's the only way to be sure
  61. Re:Sting Theory is not the only physics grand theo by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

    30 years is not a long time. Be patient little rabbit.

  62. What about a cyclic universe? by Moral+Martyr · · Score: 1

    Although this story begins with the proposition that string theory isn't adding-up, inflation itself is susceptible to some probing criticism. For example, neither the relative uniformity of the present universe nor its "lumpiness" (required for matter to form galaxies) are in any way required results of inflation; even the slightest variation in the initial quantum fluctuations thought to be responsible for the non-uniformity produce wildly different outcomes. That our universe came out the way it did, with physical laws and characteristics necessary for galaxy formation (and hence life), is statistically highly improbable. In fact, some inflationists have posited that there is a perhaps an unlimited number of expanding regions of space where these characteristics have not obtained, regions that will never intersect because space itself expands faster then the edges of these individual pockets. Further, inflation doesn't say much about the enormous amount of energy that is required to drive inflation; how does a force that acts so powerfully suddenly disappear and give way to the cause of today's much slower expansion?

    An alternative to inflation that preserves much of string theory (at least M theory) is put forth in a book by Paul Steinhardt and Neil Turok called "Endless Universe." http://www.amazon.com/Endless-Universe-Beyond-Big-Bang/dp/0385509642/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2736756-6626517?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189688680&sr=8-1 The book details some of the intellectual and experimental hurdles in the development of inflation and advocates a cyclic universe with periodic collisions between closely-spaced dimensions. Although the book is non-technical (and I surely would not understand the math if it were included) the authors claim that every prediction inflation makes is equally well predicted by their theory. Additionally, some of inflation's more problematic results are avoided. According to the authors, the WMAP team has predicted that future experiments will be sufficiently sensitive to make measurements of phenomena that have different predictions under inflation and the cyclic model.

    In any event, the book is a stimulating read.

  63. Obligatory by Flimzy · · Score: 1

    Well I know inflation is at least partly to blame for my shoe-string budget...

  64. The Far Side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where is Gary Larson when you need him?

  65. And...? by Switche · · Score: 1

    I wonder if string theory can explain why people feel the need to share any interesting or debatable fact they come across with slashdot, even if the information is multiple years old...

  66. Re:Yes -- and it can also accommodate not-inflatio by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

    One of the sharpest critiques of string theory is that it isn't really one theory -- it's many, many theories (something like 10^500), depending on how the hidden dimensions are wrapped up.

    That's not a critique of string theory, and it's not true either.

    String theory is one theory, but with many, many ground states.

    This doesn't make it any worse than existing physics such as the Standard Model, which really is one theory out of the infinitely many possible quantum field theories you can write down.

    But therein lies the problem: no matter how an experiment turns out, one can cook up a version of string theory that agrees with it!

    That's not true. In fact, it's harder to cook up a string theory to explain an experiment than it is to cook up a quantum field theory: there are low energy effective field theories you can write down that can't be obtained from any string theory.

    What we really need is a meta-theory (M-theory?) that tells us *which* string theory to use, but so far it doesn't exist.

    It would be nice, but we don't really "need" it. There is no such meta-theory which tells us that the Standard Model is the "right" quantum field theory, but that doesn't make the Standard Model or QFT useless. It just means that you have to do experiments to determine which one is right (or rather, which ones are not wrong). Welcome to science.

  67. Computing chaos by Lionheart_DK · · Score: 1

    There once was a race, who, despite the laws of the universe,
    tried to compute chaos, putting it into mathematical systems.

    They are now known as "The race that used too many resources on too little,
    and hence became extinct".

    I think it is commendable to try and figure out that which can't be figured out,
    but in the end, "the abyss also gazes into you".

    --
    You live and you learn; some just choose not to...
  68. GEM, a testable unified field theory by sweetser · · Score: 1

    Read all about it on Bad Astronomy, http://www.bautforum.com/against-mainstream/61876-gem-rank-1-unified-field-proposal.html. I know I should put it up on the physics archive, but they don't let fringe folks toss pdf's up there about a rank 1 field theory for gravity and light (yes, I figured out how the spin 2 graviton lives in the charge coupling term, if anyone here groks that issue). The test is to measure bending of light around the Sun, but six orders of magnitude better than needed to show Einstein was right, Newton was wrong. The GEM theory predicts 12% more bending, 0.8 microarcseconds, than the Schwarzschild metric. If we detect gravity waves, and measure them along 6 different axes, GR predicts the waves are transverse, and GEM predicts they would be longitudinal or scalar waves. Let the measurements decide!

    doug
    quaternions.com

    --
    Working on new views of old physics at http://VisualPhysics.org
  69. Having it both ways? by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Sound like you are trying to have it both ways. Inflation theory was developed to account for observations about the universe. So if string theory cannot support inflation, then it is not going to be consistent with those observations. Which indicates that observations of the universe can be used to test string theory.

  70. Re:Yes -- and it can also accommodate not-inflatio by aminorex · · Score: 1

    There is such a meta-theory, and it's called experimental science. Since IIa is inconsistent with both dark matter and inflation, progress is best served by allocating investigative resources to other theories. Thus, this is a practically useful result. Moreover, it may form the template from which other results, which eliminate larger classes of string theories, can be derived by abstraction, generalization, or clever virtuoso tricks. Ultimately, some number of string theories will remain without a sufficient refutation to discount their investigation. The number may be large, small, one or zero. If the number is over-unity, they may admit abstraction, such that a single formalism can be used to make all measurable predictions of any/all theories. This is sheer speculation, but it is consistent with the history of the theory. But even if such an abstraction never emerged, and we were stuck with multiple multually inconsistent theories, each consistent with all practicable observations, this would not be a terrible thing. There's no reason to think that science can determine all physical truths unambiguously -- quite the contrary.

    --
    -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  71. someone had to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for expansion, strings are fine. For inflation (rapid expansion), a stringbuilder would be better.

  72. unification by xeeno · · Score: 1

    Could someone explain to me what the justification behind unifying all of the fundamental forces is? I'm sure that it would be nice from a physical standpoint to have all of the forces be different facets of one fundamental force, but what if they aren't? Is there any groundbreaking research going on that assumes differently?

    1. Re:unification by alexo · · Score: 1

      Could someone explain to me what the justification behind unifying all of the fundamental forces is? I'm sure that it would be nice from a physical standpoint to have all of the forces be different facets of one fundamental force, but what if they aren't? Is there any groundbreaking research going on that assumes differently?

      It's not "unifying all of the fundamental forces". It's finding a theory that would explain all the forces, as well as provide correct predictions.

      For example, General relativity works on the macroscopic scale but fails at the sub-atomic scale. Quantum mechanics is the opposite.