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Japan Launches Lunar Orbiter Mission

Sooner Boomer writes "In a historic event, Japan today launched its first lunar probe. The mission is nicknamed Kaguya after a fairy-tale princess from Japanese myth. The news media is calling it the 'latest move in a new race with China, India and the United States' to explore the moon (don't forget Google). From the article: 'The rocket carrying the three-metric ton orbiter took off into blue skies, leaving a huge trail of vapor over the tiny island of Tanegashima, about 1,000 km (620 miles) south of Tokyo, at 10:31 a.m. (9:31 p.m. EDT) as it headed out over the Pacific Ocean. The mission consists of a main orbiter and two baby satellites equipped with 14 observation instruments designed to examine surface terrain, gravity and other features for clues on the origin and evolution of the moon. China has plans to launch an orbiter later this year, with unmanned rover lander mission scheduled for 2010. India and the US also have orbiter missions scheduled for next year.'"

121 comments

  1. SELENE by Poromenos1 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Interesting choice of name. Selene was a lunar deity and is the Greek word for the moon.

    --
    Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    1. Re:SELENE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Toyota and Nissan were already taken.

    2. Re:SELENE by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Not surprising. The Japanese love acronyms. Particularly ones that are pronounceable in English. And most well-educated Japanese technical and business folks are pretty well versed in lore and myth outside of their own culture. They are a very worldly people.

  2. HD with anime filter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great! Now will they show both raw HD and anime? Just so long as there are no DBZ or pokeymon on the moon.

    1. Re:HD with anime filter? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, there's only the Toast King.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  3. What's with all the goddamn typoos? by jollyreaper · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "unmaanned"? Show some respekt for the craft, fer fuck's sake!

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:What's with all the goddamn typoos? by Poromenos1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude, there were no Maan in it, the thing's correct. Stop nitpicking!

      --
      Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    2. Re:What's with all the goddamn typoos? by Stephan202 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Perhaps 'unmaanned' refers to the fact that the probe does not actually land on the Maan, but just orbits it. ;)

    3. Re:What's with all the goddamn typoos? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cripes, the Dutch are going too? Who isn't exploring the damn moon nowadays?

    4. Re:What's with all the goddamn typoos? by eno2001 · · Score: 0, Troll

      More fucking proof that no one actually learns to write anymore. Kids are allowed to get away with making videos in grade school as "reports". Kids are allowed to use calculators in math class. It's pathetic. They're all a bunch of lazy bastards who are proud of their ignorance.

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    5. Re:What's with all the goddamn typoos? by genner · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      More fucking proof that no one actually learns to write anymore.

      Don't you mean "This is more fucking proof hat no one actually learns to write anymore."

      Honestly, your grammar needs work.

    6. Re:What's with all the goddamn typoos? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 2, Funny

      Me. It's always too crowded at weekends.

    7. Re:What's with all the goddamn typoos? by djasbestos · · Score: 1

      Nah, it just means northerly Germans need to stay away from the keyboard when they're drunk. Er, I mean, Dutchmen.

      Ironically, the German (and Dutch, phonetically) word for the moon is the same as the French word for "world"...sans -e

    8. Re:What's with all the goddamn typoos? by operagost · · Score: 1

      In my day, we didn't even have paper and pencils. We had to solve long division by carving our work into our own arms with broken shards of glass. Now get off my lawn!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  4. Thank God! by Slad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't wait for these lunar satellites to be in position. I have a $50 bet with a "nut case" friend of mine that NASA's moon landing was real (he is a real conspiracy theorist - I blame drugs). Once these babies are in position, they'll be able to take nice pictures of the Apollo mission sites.

    --
    I am Slad.
    1. Re:Thank God! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Everyone knows the Japanese are secretly working with the NSA to provide so-called "proof" of the non-existent Apollo landing sites. The truth is out there people!

    2. Re:Thank God! by mdm-adph · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Once these babies are in position, they'll be able to take nice pictures of the Apollo mission sites. ...which he'll probably claim are faked, too. Never underestimate the power of the human mind to ignore blatant proof.
      --
      It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
    3. Re:Thank God! by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      I can't wait for these lunar satellites to be in position. I have a $50 bet with a "nut case" friend of mine that NASA's moon landing was real (he is a real conspiracy theorist - I blame drugs).

      Hmm. I've noticed the link between conspiracy theories and drugs before. There's a certain irony in some pothead insisting that pot is harmless and then launching into a conspiracy filled rant that shows strong signs of clinical paranoia. Not that they can appreciate the irony anymore of course.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    4. Re:Thank God! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      . I have a $50 bet with a "nut case" friend of mine that NASA's moon landing was real (he is a real conspiracy theorist - I blame drugs). Once these babies are in position, they'll be able to take nice pictures of the Apollo mission sites.

            You can't win an argument with a nutcase. He'll just say that the pics from the Japanese mission are fake, and probably create some conspiracy about the US paying the Japs to "keep the secret". Don't count on that $50.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    5. Re:Thank God! by Jeek+Elemental · · Score: 5, Funny

      I bet they find a fake lander.

    6. Re:Thank God! by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The Soviet Union was able to view the landing site with *their* satellites in 1969. If he's not going to be persuaded by the SU's golden chance to embarass the USA if the landings were faked, I don't think this would make a difference.

    7. Re:Thank God! by paleo2002 · · Score: 1

      We get telemetry back from the Moon. There's a mirror array up there so that we can bounce a laser off the moon and measure its distance. There's also a seismometer that beams back earthquake data.

      Are there any Russian or telescope pictures of the Apollo sites online? I get students who ask me about this occasionally and some long-distance pictures of the junk we left on the moon would satisfy most doubters.

    8. Re:Thank God! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In the words of the wise:
      "Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience."

    9. Re:Thank God! by flyingsquid · · Score: 1
      Hmm. I've noticed the link between conspiracy theories and drugs before. There's a certain irony in some pothead insisting that pot is harmless and then launching into a conspiracy filled rant that shows strong signs of clinical paranoia. Not that they can appreciate the irony anymore of course.

      I've never used pot on a regular basis, but I've noticed that (1) it helps the mind bring together seemingly unrelated facts, events, and patterns (2) when this happens, you get that strong sense of discovery or enlightenment, just like you normally get when solving problems, a cartoon light-bulb moment when everything sort of goes "click" upstairs and suddenly makes obvious sense (like when I solve a geometry problem, figure out a scientific puzzle, or realize who did it in a mystery movie), and (3) many of these seemingly unrelated things, well, actually are completely unrelated. But I suspect many people just trust the gut feeling that they've discovered something even when they haven't.

      Pot did once help me come to a realization about my love life ("wait a minute... the reason she acts so uninterested in me... is because she really isn't interested in me! Whoa! Heavy, man!"). And I could see how occasional use might be handy if you are a scientist, and even heavy use might be good for a writer, musician, or other artist. But yeah I wouldn't be too surprised if long term use would severely hinder your critical thinking and promote elaborate conspiracy theories. I suspect the writers of the X-files were probably buying the stuff by the bale.

    10. Re:Thank God! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I can't wait for these lunar satellites to be in position. I have a $50 bet with a "nut case" friend of mine that NASA's moon landing was real (he is a real conspiracy theorist - I blame drugs). Once these babies are in position, they'll be able to take nice pictures of the Apollo mission sites. He'll win on technicality because ...

        (*dons tinfoil hat*)

      That's no Moon!
    11. Re:Thank God! by AsnFkr · · Score: 1

      Not to troll, but do you have linkable "proof" that the soviets were actually viewing our Apollo landing sites at (or around) the time of the missions? Seriously, I've never seen a reliable source indicate they had monitored our activities on the moon from lunar orbit as opposed to just tracking radio signals sent back to earth.

    12. Re:Thank God! by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      We get telemetry back from the Moon. There's a mirror array up there so that we can bounce a laser off the moon and measure its distance. There's also a seismometer that beams back earthquake data.

      Neither of those require a human presence to set them up.

    13. Re:Thank God! by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      I don't, but it's not relevant to my point, which was that if they had any doubts, they could have looked at the spot and broadcast it to the world, and they had every reason to do so if they thought the landings were fake.

    14. Re:Thank God! by paleo2002 · · Score: 1

      Neither of those require a human presence to set them up.

      How do you figure? In order for a seismometer to function, it must be anchored to the ground properly, be placed on level ground, and calibrated. You can't just drop one from an orbiter. Same goes for a mirror array.

      Now, yes, the Mars rovers were dropped from the sky and functioning on their own within a few days. But (1) That was 2004, not the late 60's or early 70's. And (2) to my knowledge the Mars rovers aren't carrying equipment as sensitive as a seismometer. There really are limits on the kinds of equipment that can be set up or operated by remote/robot. Its why people like this (http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/frequent_questions/grp13/question1188.html) still have jobs.

    15. Re:Thank God! by chord.wav · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid you are about to lose $50 my friend.

      Try to find the US flag here:
      http://www.google.com/moon/

    16. Re:Thank God! by operagost · · Score: 1

      That's like trying to find your Ralph Nader campaign lawn banner from Google Earth. The resolution isn't high enough.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    17. Re:Thank God! by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      How do you figure? In order for a seismometer to function, it must be anchored to the ground properly, be placed on level ground, and calibrated.

      [tinfoil]
      And precisely how do you know that its actually a functioning seismometer? Instead of just a transmitter that sends out fake signals now and again.
      [/tinfoil]
      There is little you can do or show to a TrueBeliever that would "prove" that we landed humans on the moon. All can be explained away. Usually very badly, but they give a good try.

    18. Re:Thank God! by paleo2002 · · Score: 1

      You know what might help? Some pictures taken by the later Russian missions or from a telescope showing the Apollo sites . . . like I originally posted about.

      Do such pictures exist and can someone maybe direct me/us to them? Thanks!

    19. Re:Thank God! by provigilman · · Score: 1
      Even if you could take him to the Moon to see for himself, that can still be explained away.

      [paranoid rant]Well, that's simple really. Obviously if you can bring me to the Moon now the government would've had ample time to plant a fake lander that's supposedly from the 60's. This could've been planted here last week for all I know...[/paranoid rant]

      --
      "Life's short and hard, like a body building elf." -- The Bloodhound Gang
    20. Re:Thank God! by megaditto · · Score: 1

      Most 'conspiracy nuts' as you call them don't question that something landed on the Moon. The issue was whether this something had humans on board instead of going all-robotic as the Russians have done.

      Also, in most cases them 'nuts' are at least partially correct, in that there usually is a conspiracy where they suppose there could be.

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    21. Re:Thank God! by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      Oh man, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to carelessly mix the cranks who think NASA didn't land on the moon, with the legitimate scholars who merely hold that the astronauts in the videos were robots.

    22. Re:Thank God! by megaditto · · Score: 1

      Nono. The legitimate scholars (sic) claim that the videos are shot in a studio, and doctored so badly they had to be 'disappeared' to remove such proof. Google "missing apollo tapes" or click http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/13/1654200&from=rss if you care.

      The robots (presumably such as this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_1 ) are the ones that collected the samples that were brought back...

      Nobody is asking you to believe there was a conspiracy, so you don't need to set up straw-men to fight it.

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
  5. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and your bitterness will finish it off.

  6. Three metric tons by truthsearch · · Score: 3, Funny

    The rocket carrying the three-metric ton orbiter...

    Are you sure about that?

  7. What The Article Does Not Say... by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...is that the spacecraft is in the shape of a giant robot, and that, upon achieving lunar orbit, it will disassemble itself into three smaller robots, a moon buggy, a six-wheeler truck, and a mouse-class pokemon carrying a katana.

    1. Re:What The Article Does Not Say... by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Actually the secret is that the craft actually will be manned by a shrine maiden and a demon sent to investigate the appearance of a fake moon, and find out where the real moon has been hidden. The rover is three metric tons thanks to the bulletproofing they had to add ;)

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    2. Re:What The Article Does Not Say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no, no! It is actually carrying a moon lander, a flag and a plaque so that they can then take pictures and PROVE the moon landing wasn't faked!

  8. Luna 2 anniversary by cocotoni · · Score: 1
    Were they planning for this date to celebrate the 48th anniversary of first man-made object landing (well, crashing) on the Moon?

    It was a great feat back then and it is a great feat today.

    Kudos to japanese space team!

    1. Re:Luna 2 anniversary by patrixmyth · · Score: 1

      Yes, and upon their arrival at the landing zone, they will proudly announce
      All your base are belong to us!

      --
      "Don't you know you're going to shock the monkey?"- Peter Gabriel
  9. The fools!!! by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 2, Funny

    They will awaken Gogirra!!

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
  10. Kaguya by penp · · Score: 2, Informative

    Kaguya was also the name of a character in Okami who goes off into space in a giant bamboo stalk.

    Coincidence?

    I think not.

    1. Re:Kaguya by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Shockingly, you seem to be right!

      "The mission is nicknamed Kaguya after a fairy-tale princess from Japanese myth"

      Okami is a game heavily based on Japanese myth!

      In other news, 1 and 1 make 2.

      Seriously, you should look the story up. It's a classic tale of boy-meets-girl, girl-returns-to-moon, guy-gets-really-sad-and-sets-fire-to-things-atop-mountain.

    2. Re:Kaguya by Swoopy · · Score: 1

      I thought Kaguya was the Japanese name of Sailor Moon

  11. If we're going to get picky... by benhocking · · Score: 5, Informative
    Perhaps we should be more concerned with how they misspelled "second" (as "first"). From Red Orbit:

    Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) had previously launched HITEN in 1990, delivering the small lunar orbiter HAGOMORO. Kaguya is said to be the largest lunar mission since NASA's Apollo programme.
    Despite several news services saying this is Japan's first lunar probe, lunar orbiter, etc., it is not. It is the largest one, and the first in over a decade, but it is not it's first.
    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
  12. Is everyone playing nice? by paiute · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is the information from all these various probes being shared or is each nation building up its own little pool of data?

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    1. Re:Is everyone playing nice? by lordofthechia · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is the information from all these various probes being shared God! Korea, we already said NO! You can't borrow our notes, God!

      But seriously, I was wondering the same thing, how are there experiments gonna vary from ours (if at all) considering the near half century technology gap between automated experiment equipment then and now.
      --
      Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
    2. Re:Is everyone playing nice? by multisync · · Score: 1

      Is the information from all these various probes being shared or is each nation building up its own little pool of data?


      Well ... they're certainly building up a nice pool of space junk around the moon. Give us a hundred years and I'm sure we will have turned poor Luna in to a garbage dump.
      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    3. Re:Is everyone playing nice? by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      Well ... they're certainly building up a nice pool of space junk around the moon. Give us a hundred years and I'm sure we will have turned poor Luna in to a garbage dump. And shortly thereafter it will leave orbit and have wacky adventures among the stars.
    4. Re:Is everyone playing nice? by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      It's being shared.

      The SELENE mission is highly awaited among NASA types because it will help produce a better lunar gravity model (the "shape" of the gravity field around the moon due to irregularities in shape, etc.), which will help in the design of the upcoming LRO mission (and missions after that).

      These models are typically published in journals, then used by organizations around the world to design their own missions.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
  13. Crap, they're trying for a quick win! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Guys after the apollo program all they'll have left to do is research future tech and start building space colony ship modules, once they got all the modules assembled and reach Alpha Centauri it's Game over man.

    1. Re:Crap, they're trying for a quick win! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Nonono, once they have a colony up there they'll drop it on the US.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  14. very high Japan probe failure rate by peter303 · · Score: 3, Informative

    About six years ago Japan tried to send a probe to Mars. It MISSED the plant so, they sent around the solar system to try to hit Mars again. When it finally got there, it had run out of fuel and died.

    The had a little better luck with a comet probe. It made it there. I was supposed to retrieve samples. They think it might have gotten some. But the probe died on the way back to Earth.

    Good luck next time!

    1. Re:very high Japan probe failure rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think if you account for the number of probes japan has sent, they are doing okay. The reason the US and Russia have done so well in space exploration is that they have sent probe after probe. The US and Russia have spent a lot of money on failed missions; where all they really learned was there was something wrong with component X. I think Japan may have jumped to deep into the aerospace game, for it's amount of experience. I also believe if they spent the same amount of money as us, they could make us look bad which would be good, might cause us to whip NASA into shape.

    2. Re:very high Japan probe failure rate by mithridatesVIEupator · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, it didn't die. It'll be back here in 2010. Whether it got the samples as it was supposed to do is another story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayabusa

      --
      http://www.pagef30.com
    3. Re:very high Japan probe failure rate by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 2, Funny

      Then the third probe burnt down, fell over, and then sank into the swamp.

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
  15. Isn't this kinda sad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hate to get a weepy and jingoist, but isn't this just kinda pathetic? We sent people there almost 40 years ago, fer Christ's sake, and now we're in a "race" to send orbiters around it?

    We should already have moon-based lasers to shoot down them godless foreign spy satellites before they enter orbit. We should own that goddamned moon, complete with a Disneyland! And blackjack! And hookers!

    In fact, forget the moon!

    1. Re:Isn't this kinda sad? by genner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We should already have moon-based lasers to shoot down them godless foreign spy satellites before they enter orbit. We should own that goddamned moon, complete with a Disneyland! And blackjack! And hookers!

      In fact, forget the moon!


      Thats pretty much what happend.

    2. Re:Isn't this kinda sad? by LanceUppercut · · Score: 1

      Thats' why it clearly says that this is a new race. Otherwise, there woudn't be a race at all: Russians explored the Moon with unmanned rovers 40 years ago.

    3. Re:Isn't this kinda sad? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Actually, no. Nobody is in a 'race' to send probes to the moon. The 'race' is product of the journalist's imaginings.

    4. Re:Isn't this kinda sad? by toxicity · · Score: 1

      That'd be a violation of the Outer Space Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty), but other than that, I'm all for hooker, blackjack, and singing animals.

    5. Re:Isn't this kinda sad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How the FUCK did that get modded "interesting"?

  16. Grabbing the Moon by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 0

    Japan and China (and probably India, too) have made clear that their plans to "explore" the Moon all target exploiting the Moon, for mining and energy extraction.

    When will the US leverage our huge, pioneering, and still leading Moon exploration to harness that energy? Solar panels on or orbiting the moon could send enough energy back to the Earth to power everything we do, without pumping a single barrel of oil from under treacherous sands, or emitting another gram (net) of Greenhouse gases. The way out of our 21st Century's greatest political and economic problems could lead through the Moon. Will we let these foreign countries stand on our shoulders, or reach for greatness ourselves?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      You do, of course, have some sort of data that backs up your statement that "Solar panels on or orbiting the moon could send enough energy back to the Earth to power everything we do"? Because I don't believe that for a second.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    2. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Why don't you believe it?

      The Sun lands over 1.3KW:m^2 on the Moon's surface. The Moon's surface is 3.8E7Km^2, or 3.8E13m^2. The world consumes about 15TW. 15TW is 3 hundredths of a percent of the Lunar insolation. Even at 10% efficiency, only 0.3% of the Lunar surface would power the Earth. Since the US consumes only about 3.3TW, we'd need only about 0.075% of the Lunar surface.

      Facty enough for you?

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    3. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      No. You neglected storage and conversion costs, as well as ALL the costs associated with travelling back and forth to the moon repeatedly.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    4. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      No, I didn't discuss costs at all. I just said there is enough power. You denied that. Now you're moving the goalposts to talk about costs.

      Besides, it's not even necessary to travel back and forth repeatedly. We could send a robot that manufactures the solar panels and other infrastructure on site, as has already been demonstrated. Your idea about storage and "conversion" costs is similarly hairsplitting. They're more than matched by the longterm political (eg. war) and materials costs of our current energy system, especially as the cheap oil runs out.

      So I posted the correct outlook. And then I documented it with facts. You just want to say "no", regardless of the facts. Which is trivially easy, and doesn't earn any more work from me to clue you.

      Goodbye.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    5. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is not talking about fucking costs, but replying to the doubt that it was possible motherfucker.

    6. Re:Grabbing the Moon by KingRoo · · Score: 1

      "Send enough energy back". Um....how, exactly?

    7. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Lasers to platforms floating at sea, then cables to land. The laser need send only 10x sunlight or so, not enough to cause real damage in any mishap, even though they should be in a looped interlock "dead man's switch" (ie. transistor). Just as long as they steadily transmit, unlike sunlight subject to weather, night and seasons.

      This part of the technology was demo'ed to me and the Planetary Society by Grumman as long as 17 years ago. And they were pitching the Society (at Columbia U) on backing their going to Russia to get tech they knew was superior, for exactly this app: space-based solar platforms to return energy in lasers to the Earth's surface.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    8. Re:Grabbing the Moon by AJWM · · Score: 1

      "Send enough energy back". Um....how, exactly?

      Really, really long extension cords.

      Of course, extension cords that long would probably be pretty heavy, and impractical, so we'll make them out of something with negligible or zero mass -- like photons. Like microwaves, or lasers.

      See Doc Ruby's post above for details.

      --
      -- Alastair
    9. Re:Grabbing the Moon by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Funny thing is, that at least some ppl here are busy trying to calculate the copper that will be required for an extension cord that runs from the moon to the earth. And they will still not get it.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    10. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether costs were initially a part of the discussion or not, they are a relevant issue if you want to talk about actually doing this. I don't see what good your bitching about "moving the goalposts" does if the issue is worth discussing except making you sound unreasonable.

    11. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      No, I replied to a specific poster who asked for some facts to back up what I said, saying they don't believe it for a minute. I supplied detailed facts, and they rejected it again, this time on the irrelevant (to our discussion) basis of costs.

      I'm happy to discuss costs with someone else. Because, as I posted, their moving the goalposts to try to "win" an argument they'd just lost, instead of acknowledging they were wrong (and maybe that they were baselessly obnoxious), made me reject the idea of discussing anything with them, since they' were being such a jerk.

      Now I get you, an Anonymous Coward, just repeating their same obnoxious charge. Why would I want to waste my time discussing it with you, when you've indicated only that you'll be as unpleasant to educate as they were?

      These clues are free only so long as it amuses me. Bickering like a child is a turnoff.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    12. Re:Grabbing the Moon by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Damn straight.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  17. help me! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what would be truly awesome is if their subsequent missions were named eirin, reisen, and tei.

    1. Re:help me! by mdenham · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, the reason I tagged the article "touhouproject".

  18. Upcoming missions ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    This mission is just a warmup. Japan's future plans include a lunar mission in 2022 in which gigantic teflon and mylar sheets will be installed at strategic locations extending upward perpendicular to the surface. Upon completion of the complex in 2024, observers on Earth will see that the moon has been transformed into a giant Hello Kitty.

  19. Tiny? by Goaway · · Score: 1, Informative

    Tanegashima is "tiny" now? The island's 50 km long. It's got a city on it!

  20. Instead of a wiki for programmers by p3d0 · · Score: 1

    Why not just add your info to Wikipedia?

    Actually, I just looked randomly at docforge's article on hash tables, and I can tell you the Wikipedia one is far more accurate and complete already.

    --
    Patrick Doyle
    I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    1. Re:Instead of a wiki for programmers by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Docforge is not. There are articles on Docforge which could never be added to Wikipedia.

    2. Re:Instead of a wiki for programmers by p3d0 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Ok, that makes sense. Since you're using the GFDL, why not start your pages by grabbing a copy of the corresponding pages on Wikipedia? The Hash Table article particularly would be improved a lot.

      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    3. Re:Instead of a wiki for programmers by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      I have. My first thought was to import all of Wikipedia's computer related articles, but then I decided to do it one at a time so I could edit. Somewhere around one-third to one-half of Docforge's articles are edited Wikipedia articles (with proper attribution at the bottom). Others I chose to start from scratch because they talk more to the techies than as a general reference. And many other articles on Docforge were written by visitors before I got to importing the page. I'm still adding Wikipedia content, it's just taking a long time.

      Thanks for the feedback, even if it is on the wrong site. ;)

  21. tons are tons are tonnes (info) by petes_PoV · · Score: 2, Informative
    metric, imperial, whatever.

    The difference between the two tons (or tonnes if you must) is so small that to qualify whether you're using one or the other is nit-picking[1]. As it is, unless the weight of the spacecraft is an exact number of tons, the journalistic rounding-off of the weight far exceeds this small difference in definitions.

    [1]unless of course you're using the weight in orbital mechanics calculations, in which case you'll need better accruacy than the 1 significant digit reported here.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:tons are tons are tonnes (info) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "[1]unless of course you're using the weight in orbital mechanics calculations, in which case you'll need better accruacy than the 1 significant digit reported here."

      [2] and if you're teaching in junior school, you'll need better spelling than illustrated here!

    2. Re:tons are tons are tonnes (info) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      10 percent is not small in a lot of cases.

      I guess for journalism it doesn't much matter, but reporters have a tendency to become fixated with particular words when they hear them from a professional.

    3. Re:tons are tons are tonnes (info) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since metric tons (or tonnes, for those who must) are measures of mass, while english tons are a measure of weight, in this instance the difference is critical. Once in orbit, these satellites will have no weight at all, but will still have the same mass as they did on Earth.

      Obviously I'm striving for the MOPA, Most Obvious Pedant Award, here... but for the sake of our younger members it does need to be said.

  22. Name by ackthpt · · Score: 1

    Interesting choice of name. Selene was a lunar deity and is the Greek word for the moon.

    No, it's not an interesting choice of name! It's like Anime going to the moon or sommat. What we need here is name like Susano and he's going to go all samurai on the Moon! Good grief, what is the world coming to? ;-)

    china, not to be outdone by fierce rivals Japan have announced plans to lauch their own lunar surveyor named Ripple of Leaf Falling on Water of Still Pond at Sunrise

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Name by susano_otter · · Score: 1

      What we need here is name like Susano and he's going to go all samurai on the Moon!

      Yo, what's up?
      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

  23. hardware does not equate humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you read some of the claims of the moon mission doubters, they have no problems with getting the hardware to the moon, they have problems with the claims that humans traversed the van allen belt without massive shielding, etc, or that the landing module was even large enough for fully suited astronauts to use it with an inward opening door. That and weird things like the anomalous cables that showed up in some pics, etc.

    So, just seeing hardware sitting there is not proof humans made it there. Humans in low earth orbit, sure, broadcasting from "space" then, sure, beyond that, not much proof beyond their say so and some grainy and dodgy stills and video. And they conveniently "lost" a lot of the original footage, like leftover junk at a garage sale. "Lost" it "Misplaced".uh huh.

    I don't doubt it (much) even with the previous said, but do find it rather odd that the Russians never went there, and in some stuff I have read (sorry, no links, a long time ago), they also had concerns over the van allen belt and decided it wasn't doable because of that, just too risky, they couldn't do a mission because of inadequate shielding, and they were known for being even more cavalier about their cosmonauts. And it's not like they didn't have the tech, there was rough parity back then, lift capabilities (built or could have been built) and computing power, but they said it wasn't doable for them at that time.

  24. Moon Bases by synonymous · · Score: 1

    Now they will witness the moon bases that NASA has known about for many years. HINT Disclosure project.

  25. Service To World: Shared Info In This Post by patio11 · · Score: 1

    The moon is made of rock. There is no life on it. There is no liquid water on it. We have sporadic indications that there may be frozen water in some deep, dark places.

    There, that about sums it up. For my next post, I'll share what the nations of earth have learned from Mars after spending billions trying to reach it. That post will be a dupe of this one.

  26. Lunar Lander game revival! ;-) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, this is GREAT!

    Time for a lunar lander renaissance! Dust off those rarely used "left, right, right, left, space bar" key skills!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Lander

  27. Why the moon-crazy? by metrometro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    OK, call me no fun at all, but why the hell is anyone committing major resources to getting to the moon? As far as I understand, we're pretty confident it's a big lump of sand. No real advantage of being there vs being in orbit. Nice place for telescopes maybe, but so is high Earth orbit or a Legrange point. Other than a playpen for new technology, what's the draw? Mars at least has some interesting geology and the whole maybe-there's-microbes thing. But the moon? Lunacy! Why doesn't Google give an X-prize for orbiting a next-generation Hubble? Same industry-boosting tech trickle down, more or less, and then we get some science from it. A 10-pound rover with a Nikon on it doesn't really light my fire.

    1. Re:Why the moon-crazy? by djp928 · · Score: 1

      Gravity, for one. If you want to have people live there to man your production facilities that require a hard vacuum, having it on the moon is more betterer than having it in orbit.

      Also, the bulk of the moon itself is useful for things like radio astronomy. A radio telescope on the lunar far side would be able to use the entire mass of the moon as a shield against the background noise of the Earth.

      Other than that... It's just damn cool! Go outside some night and really take a look at the moon. It's the only thing in the sky that is so close to us that we actually see it as a great big disc and can see features on it with the naked eye. That's another WORLD you're looking at! And it's RIGHT THERE! Tell me you wouldn't give just about anything to walk on it.

  28. 2 things by tom_75 · · Score: 0

    To be perfectly honest, I just want two things from the Japanese: 1. Show us a clear shot of the American flag there (to put to rest all those pesky conspiracy theories, once and for all) 2. In the name of all that's holy, please don't use names like Takazigashi Homochikimura on new lunar features ! Thanks.

  29. I'll say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    W. was voted in. Twice. You have pubs claiming that they are balancing the budget, while ignoring the fact that the last 'pub' to truly push a balanced budget was Nixon (Though to Bush 1's credit, he at least turned the tide).

    Europeans run around knocking Amerca all the time, while ignoring the fact that they have all sorts of issues. In particular, EU likes to knock Americans for not dealing with MS, and yet, they are in 15 year attempt to do the same (and will punish MS less than America).

  30. That is why W. is pushing the moon. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    W. is not pushing the moon because of legacy. He is pushing for it to be able to place nukes and/or weapons on it. But, it is doubtful that it will happen. The truth is that we are shooting for the moon at least a decade ahead of any other nation. And with private enterprise pushing it, we will be on the moon by 2015. And how will they make their money back? Via solar energy. There is a LOT of evidence that indicates that we really have hit peak oil and that future issues will come about. Assuming that W. does not have enough brains to restart his fathers program of IFR (integral fast reactor), then it should be obvious that energy is going to be very expensive in the next decade. Private enterprise will make their money back in the exact way that you have suggested, in addition, to vacations, manufacturing, minerals, etc.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:That is why W. is pushing the moon. by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      The real scam is actually somewhere in the middle. Bush is (literally) promising us the Moon to get us to support his Star Wars militarization of space.

      I am hoping American private enterprise gets first crack at NASA research that will use the Moon for energy, and as a base (guiding slingshots) for further solar system expansion (for more American claims). The mining/manufacting/materials up there (other than energy) are mostly advantageous over Earthbound matter only because they're already out of the gravity well, closer to space targets.

      And more like praying for open access by any American, not this rampant cronyism that mainly locks out everyone else while the cronies squander most of the opportunities in waste.

      In other words, I hope we nothing about it for another year and a half, then pull out all the stops. Preferably switching most of our military budgets to space industry. The Clinton "defense economy" of investment in retooling for peace technology and finance.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    2. Re:That is why W. is pushing the moon. by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Please explain even one potential benefit that would result from having a nuke on the Moon... other than to engage in a war against others already on the Moon.

      Even orbital nukes, which were discussed and explored as viable options in the 1950's and 1960's as something the U.S. Air Force was strongly considering, is something that has long been discounted and dismissed as both impractical and subject to potential counter measures that would render them useless.

      By far and away the most effective device for delivering multiple warheads to a country without any warning would be from a nuclear-powered submarine. And the USA has been the "world class" standard for how that can be accomplished. Try to beat the stealth ability of a Trident sub that is 5 miles from a coastal city that the U.S. President wishes to be destroyed. Good-bye St. Petersburg... or Tehran depending on who is perceived to be hostile. And a nuke can be detonated over those cities in less than 10 minutes after launch.

      It would take days for a nuke to travel from the Moon to the Earth. So what is the huge improvement?

      Territorial claims on the Moon may be made, but that is precisely why some sort of militarization is inevitable in space. Regardless of how noble and honorable your motives may be, there will be some idiot or two that will try to be a bully and push their way around, demanding all kinds of stupid things. The only way you can stop them is to have a bigger gun and scare the hell out of them to stand down and take the status quo. The question then becomes.... who will have the guns? I would rather that it be in the hands of larger governments like the USA and Russia, who have something to lose on the Earth if things get out of hand. Certainly I wouldn't trust some directorate from the United Nations.

      BTW, in regards to Bush.... I would consider him to be a lame-duck President at the moment. He isn't going to be doing much of anything different than what is currently going on. Large quantities of soldiers will still be in Iraq in 2009, oil will still be consumed in large quantities, and the U.S. Government will still be screwed up. The only thing that will change is that George W. Bush will not be President of the USA after January 2009. At that point you can vent your spleen about whoever else picks up the reins and screws up our country, even if you will be denying that they are making a mess of things.

  31. Not to be confused with by treeves · · Score: 1

    SELETE, a Japanese consortium of semiconductor manufacturing companies, collaborating on research.

    --
    ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  32. The moon isn't the best choice by shadowbearer · · Score: 1


      Exploiting NEA resources is a much, MUCH better choice.

      I don't have the time nor room to explain why here; read "Mining the Sky" by Lewis. He presents a great case, with math to back it up.

    Cheers,
    SB

    --
    It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
    1. Re:The moon isn't the best choice by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      The Moon has the advantage of lots of material from which to make the machinery, including the solar panels (and more machinese to make more machinery). And also probably enough materials to support humans, including O2, and even H2 flying from the Sun to make H2O. Plus mass to shield from all kinds of radiation. And a base there would be a much bigger propaganda victory (for encouraging people to support the mission), because everyone can at least see the Moon (if not the base) to remind them, rather than what amounts to an abstraction elsewhere.

      Do you know of any detailed analysis of the comparative costs:benefits of astronauts living in orbit rather than on the Lunar surface? With a short executive summary ;)?

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    2. Re:The moon isn't the best choice by Teancum · · Score: 1

      The issue here isn't Lunar vs. Orbital costs of living, but Near-Earth Asteroid costs vs. Lunar costs when you take the whole infrastructure into the equation and large scale mining operations. Also, you have a larger percentage of silicates in Lunar soils compared to the heavier metals you can obtain from the obviously high density asteroids.

      I personally think there is a place for Lunar exploration and mining, but it isn't so cut and dried as some would have you think it is. But there are some very definite adantages for Lunar exploration.

      One of the most significant is that the Moon is never more than 250,000 miles away. You can't say that about the rest of the Solar System, and nearly any effort to travel to the Moon is more or less trivial with even the current level of rocket travel. There is no need for exotic propulsion methods if you need to travel to the Moon in less than a week. Even the Apollo astronauts got to the Moon in less time than that. Getting to Mars in less than a month is going to be considered an exceptional task worthy of the most exotic propulsion systems that may ever be invented and worked on before the end of this century.... and those may have to be nuclear based at that. Travel to most Near-earth asteroids will be of a similar time span except for very brief windows of opportunity that may only happen once every several years. If a disaster happens on that asteroid when it happens to be on the opposite side of the Solar System from the Earth, anybody who is there will simply be screwed... and likely be dead before anybody gets there to find out what has happened. A similar disaster on the Moon might be able to get a "rescue mission" in a pinch to send extra supplies and get some additional people and resources available to help out and solve problems there.

      I have no doubt that once a large and well established infrastructure is developed throughout the Solar System (meaning regular scheduled spaceflight between various planets, and permanent structures on the Moon, L-points, GEO and LEO) that it may prove to be more economical to mine asteroids rather than fight pre-existing claims on the Moon that have taken some of the best spots.

      Of course, the Moon has more surface area than North America, so running out of places to go may be a bit of a challenge. Many of those detracting from Lunar exploration tend to forget that the Moon is really a dwarf planet... larger than Pluto and Ceres.

    3. Re:The moon isn't the best choice by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      One of the reasons the Moon is so attractive for solar power bases is that there is so much silicon, not just heavier metals (like iron and nickel). The solar infrastructure would need a lot more silicon than conductive metals.

      The Moon's advantages (of which I'd like to see more analysis) for human bases isn't just a way to get into space. It's an end in itself: "homo cosmos" is what we must become, and so we must actually have humans living in space, preferably for generations without visiting Earth.

      The Moon is also far enough away that it's a lot easier to reach the rest of the Solar System from it than from the bottom of the Earth's gravity well. And if the Moon is a power station, then it's good for at least an anchor in a systemwide network of energy "rails" powering vehicles (some manned) around the neighborhood. Such a base would need a human crew, for operations and also just as a way to justify humans living in space. The Moon, if it's indeed better for humans to live in than true microgravity in orbit (around something, not necessarily the Earth, Sun or Moon), could be the natural choice for basing the entire new enterprise.

      Plus, since it's an achievable goal, that makes it a great first step to inspire further investment.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    4. Re:The moon isn't the best choice by shadowbearer · · Score: 1

      "The issue here isn't Lunar vs. Orbital costs of living, but Near-Earth Asteroid costs vs. Lunar costs when you take the whole infrastructure into the equation and large scale mining operations. Also, you have a larger percentage of silicates in Lunar soils compared to the heavier metals you can obtain from the obviously high density asteroids."

      We're talking about bootstrapping operations, tho. The heavier metals are worth a lot more than silicates - we aren't likely to have silica shortages soon - are we? Any mining operation on this scale will have to pay off as quickly as possible and as much as possible. A large influx of heavy metals from mining operations off-planet could provide a huge boost to the industrial and electronic industries.

      I urge both of you to read Lewis's book, he covers these arguments in much greater detail than I can. I'll buy a copy for you if necessary :)

      Doc Ruby, I respect you, and I follow your posts (I say this because we don't really know one another, but Teancum and I do) and I'd love to continue this discussion elsewhere if it gets cut off here. Mkay? :)

      "I personally think there is a place for Lunar exploration and mining, but it isn't so cut and dried as some would have you think it is. But there are some very definite adantages for Lunar exploration."

      Agreed.

      "One of the most significant is that the Moon is never more than 250,000 miles away. You can't say that about the rest of the Solar System, and nearly any effort to travel to the Moon is more or less trivial with even the current level of rocket travel. There is no need for exotic propulsion methods if you need to travel to the Moon in less than a week."

      There isn't any need for one for most if not all NEAs, either.

      LEO to Moon landing
      6.3 km/s
      LEO to Near Earth Asteroid
      approx 5.5 km/s

      (from http://www.nss.org/settlement/asteroids/sonter.html, see chart about a third of the way down the page)

      There are also NEAs that have resonance orbits with Earth that are much easier to get to - the figures given there are averages (but not for the Moon!).

      " Even the Apollo astronauts got to the Moon in less time than that."

      Travel time will depend entirely on how much fuel we can burn and which target we select. Which will depend directly on how much resources we put into the mission. A half-hearted effort would likely suffer the same fate as Apollo did. (and so will a half-hearted moon effort directed towards putting some people in a tin can on the surface without the machinery to be at least semi-self-sufficient. Keep in mind that that mass of machinery masses many times what the life support does, and that building it for the moon or building it for an asteroid mining operation is building pretty much the same hardware. )

      Resupply of astronauts on a NEA is easy - just launch your robot supply packages beforehand, and as often as a launch window presents (remember, these aren't emergency things, they can take low-fuel orbits and there's no "landing" per se).

      Emergencies, sure, they are a problem. So make damned sure the astronauts are equipped - both hardware and personnel - as well as possible. But remember that a min-time emergency response to the moon is going to likely be at least two days - if the loonies there can't handle it in that time, it's probably game over anyway.

      I think too many people forget just what our ancestors went thru when they went exploring in their dugout canoes and teakwood sail rafts. It's a new frontier. People are going to get killed exploring it. It's heartening that there's no shortage of volunteers, at least :)

      " Getting to Mars in less than a month is going to be considered an exceptional task worthy of the most exotic propulsion systems that may ever be invented

      --
      It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
    5. Re:The moon isn't the best choice by Teancum · · Score: 1

      One particular problem that does need to be addressed by those advocating NEA exploration is how to cut down on the cost of getting equipment into orbit in the first place to make it cheap enough to make NEA minerals valuable enough for extraction.

      More to the point.... can we make sending equipment + personnel to an asteroid cheap enough to extract very rare minerals (aka Uranium, Gold, Platinum) at a price that can be competitive with terrestrial-based mining operations? If you can make a business case of this nature, the bootstrapping issues involved with getting people to NEA can be much more easily solved, but unfortuantely at $100,000 per pound to LEO is not going to make economic sense. The Space Shuttle is currently over $1 million/pound right now, although Soyuz spacecraft are close to about $50,000/pound.

      Let's just hope that John Carmack can get his spacecraft going where the primary cost is the consumables and not the vehicle cost itself. His latest posting on his blog seems to indicate this may be normal operation for his spacecraft, and it will be awesome if he ever gets to LEO with his spacecraft. Going after the the extreme skydiving market (>> 100,000 feet altitude) sounds like a good place to start.

      BTW, my comment about the window of opportunity to approach a NEA being only for a couple of weeks every other year or so is based on the idea that you have established a colony on a particular hunk of rock and you seek to either obtain the "products" from that colony or wish to resupply the original expedition. If anything has been learned from the MIR/ISS experience is that resupply is a huge issue that needs to be considered for any permanent human settlement. I do believe that people living in space will have to learn how to become much more self-sufficient, but it is going to take some time before a body of knowledge is developed that will allow that to happen. Or even more important a culture of people that actually live in space and not stop by for an occasional visit as a government employee. This does not exist yet... although I hope that it may eventually.

      Most people of today would starve to death if they couldn't get to the grocery store at least twice a week. They have certainly forgotten the lessons learned from their relatively recent ancestors who often had to go several months without being "resupplied" from outside sources... particularly those of us like you and I, Shadowbearer, who have American ancestors who lived on the American frontier. My great-great grandfather certainly couldn't hit the local grocery store when his family needed some food... he had to grow it himself. Doing this in the space frontier is going to be comparatively similar in difficulty... even with modern technology working on your behalf. And you had better be capable of doing field repairs of all of that technology if your life depends on it.

  33. My prediction and curiosity. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    NASA will partner with Privater Enterprise by 2013 for getting to the moon. But so will the military. The reason is that the next x prize will no doubt be for putting man on the moon. Again. It will almost certainly be more for than 50 million (I would guess 100 million), and will be offered by several companies (like what I mentioned earlier) or possibly the USA. I would guess that it will be for time frame of 201[45]. This will lead to spacex, bigelow, and (armadillo|new shepard) going to the moon by then (If by the USA, then it will be open to others including l-mart). Once these companies are on the moon (with a bigelow space station), then the next president will stop NASA's effort WRT orien, esp if the merlin 2 engine is in active development (that is if the plan is to go with the Ares V rather than the direct derivitate).

    What will be interesting to see is how other nations respond. EU, Canada, australia, Japan, and probably India will pull tight with us. China will denounce us. The real question is, what will Russia do? Will W. have pissed them off so much that they decide to go it with China? If so, then real estate will suddenly matter (we will build out both poles quickly). If they do not, then real estate will not be an issue. As it is, China is making steady progress, partially on their own, and partially by Russia. But China is several decades from being able to put a base on the moon. With Russia's help, they can be on their by 2020-2025 timeframe.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:My prediction and curiosity. by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      That is a very plausible scenario (series). I wish we had someone like Heinlein (as if ;) to write an updated "Man Who Sold the Moon". It's my favorite storyline by Heinlein, possibly his most inspiring, especially as "libertarianism". A generation fixated on computer SF instead of space has left us without such visionaries. Unless I'm missing something...

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    2. Re:My prediction and curiosity. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. I am shocked at the number of short sighted ppl that I have seen on this sight. I would like to say that it is due to lack of education, but it is not. One of the guys here is at CU on one of the telescope projects and sees man leaving the planet as a waste for money. Yet, he is all in favor of robotics and does not realize that the 2 will go hand in hand (human hand in metal hand?). In addition, there have been a number of others here who repeat some of what I heard from the 60's, but I remember thinking that they were idiots back than (esp when they said that we could not put man on the moon).

      Yeah, the kids of today are lacking vision. But I suspect taht is our fault. Far too many days of ppl like reagan and W. who showed that pure money is good, rather than teaching that money being used for good is better. Shoot, a guy from WV. won the powerball lottery and complaigns that it was the worst thing for him.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:My prediction and curiosity. by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      The movie The Right Stuff explained perfectly why manned space exploration is the goal, not just a means to an end of science: we're doing this for the human adventure, not just the best way to accumulate info.

      I'm a computer geek, but I recognize that we switched priorities (funding and vision) too extremely in the 1980s from space to computers. I recognize that investment in space exploration also improves computers, networks, software, but it's mainly just a lot cooler and more inspiring than even getting every human able to talk meaningfully with each other.

      The core problem is the endless selfishness. The telescope guy just thinks manned exploration competes with his budgets, so he's against it. Can't be bothered to be inspired by the greatest adventure of all time. I understand, and sometimes agree with, people who complain about spending money on "blue sky" science while some essential research (cure for AIDS, irrigation, etc) is un/der funded. But just wanting the money to flood your fetish at the expense of the guy down the hall in the same department, when their mission is universally inspiring, is pathetic.

      The selfishness is a product of a relentless corporate myth. In America, the truth of even the frontier West - that everyone had to help each other to survive, and has been continuously subsidized by everyone else, especially on the Northeast coast - has been replaced with lies about "individualism" and "self reliance". The corporations work overtime to interfere with the human compassion on which social exchange is based, because corporations can't get the benefit of that, and they prey on weakened humans in competition with us.

      But I do see some hope. Young people have more social connections now than ever, thanks to the last generation's emphasis on computers and telecom. I really do hope that some brilliant storyteller can capture their imaginations with real characters, inspiring attitudes, set in space exploitation game scenarios. Putting millions of kids in space, up against its fascinating challenges, with each other, could reignite more than just a passion for space. It could put us back on the frontier, pulling together. For fun and profit. Just like we need a balance between computer and space tech vision and projects, a rebalance of human and corporate space ambitions could get us there together.

      Here's hoping.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  34. Re:What's with all the goddamn fucking hats? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >> Don't you mean "This is more fucking proof hat no one actually learns to write anymore."

    No. In god's holy name , perhaps YOU mean
    'Don't you mean "This is more fucking proof that no one actually learns to write anymore." '?

    (The pinoqachole helps with grammar)

  35. Re:Thank God! But who is we? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >>..We get telemetry back from the Moon. There's a mirror array up there so that we can bounce a laser off the moon

    "we?"
    Who is "we"?
    You and that fake punch-drunk 'Buzz' Aldrin?

    He's been stoned on Pinoqachole since 1978.
    And everyone knows that Neil Armstrong has had a lobotomy.
    He's probably fed Pinoqachole too, just to keep him off-balance.

    "WE?" - Don't make me laugh, you NASA shill.
    Yes, You. And the other 245,000 conspirators.
    Thank god you're all dying off. Finally the truth will be known!

  36. Re:Thank God! But who is we? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He's alive and well,lives in Cyberspace and speaks to his Pinequoled (pinch a hole) followers evrry night. ;_)