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How Students Are 'Evolving' With Technology

Scott Jaschik writes "A new study explores how "digital natives" (today's college students) have changing technology habits — and how those habits have infiltrated the classroom. What does that mean for professors and their teaching methods?"

249 comments

  1. Note taking by Arrow_Raider · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Maybe it's just me, but I've tried taking notes on my laptop before and I just didn't retain the information as well as when I physically write notes with paper and pencil.

    1. Re:Note taking by GuyinVA · · Score: 1

      Ditto. If I actually write down the notes, I seem to remember it easier.

    2. Re:Note taking by jimstapleton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If I wrote down notes, I tended to miss parts of the lecture, usually important stuff.

      I didn't have that problem with the notebook.

      --
      34486853790
      Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
    3. Re:Note taking by jhutch2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The biggest problem I saw was that the tap-tap of typing is extremely annoying, especially in smaller class sizes (granted in a huge lecture hall, the general noise of the room drowned it out).

    4. Re:Note taking by webax · · Score: 2, Informative
      I finished school a couple years ago now, at that time the kid who brought a laptop to every class was called "laptop", and it wasn't the most endearing nickname.

      My girlfriend is still in school now though, and the majority of her pre-med program class bring their laptops to class. The most interesting thing is that professors seem to be required to provide their lecture notes as a type of powerpoint presentation. Students open the powerpoint and follow along with the teacher typing notes into the file itself, which can they later review on the computer for tests and exams.

      The point can be made that this doesn't properly prepare you for tests that are written but even those are changing. The MCAT was changed to an all electronic format in which you are required to answer all multiple choice and even essay questions on a computer.

      I wonder how long before English exams are being done entirely online?

      The only subject I have trouble seeing easily transferable to an electronic form without some form of tablet would be math and engineering subjects which require extensive equations. There is no good standard equation editor that can create and manipulate formulas nearly as fast as can be done by hand afaik. (Although LaTeX equations do look a whole lot better than by hand once you get all the symbols in the right place.)

    5. Re:Note taking by boobavon · · Score: 1

      Not a single class this semester even allows me to have a laptop open during class. I retain things better writing as well, I've noticed. But the classes are just so boring!

    6. Re:Note taking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Some people can type plain English much faster than they can write. Therefore, in most humanities courses it pays off to use a laptop for notetaking (particularly in Ivy League-type schools for obvious reasons).

    7. Re:Note taking by masdog · · Score: 1

      I found that I did better in classes where I used my laptop to take notes. I remembered more, had an easier time sharing, and didn't have to try deciphering my own writing.

      But there were only a few classes where I actually did that...most professors thought I was taking notes when I was really playing the Sims or surfing the net.

    8. Re:Note taking by Dr.+Eggman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I use a Tablet PC/Notebook hybrid =D

      All benefits of handwritten note plus ultimate storeage, organization, and the ability to copy/paste large swaths of repeated information and to resize/reshape/duplicate graphs and tables. Built-in microphone is starting to get use, too. Its nice to be able to hear a lecture over again encase I missed important info during note taking.

      --
      Demented But Determined.
    9. Re:Note taking by kannibal_klown · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I tried doing the whole laptop thing towards the end of college using different methods, and in the end my hand-written notes were always better and stuck with me. Plus the teacher would get annoyed and I'd be too tempted to browse the Net or do some coursework for another class during an easy lecture.

      The only thing I liked about it was a few teachers asked that we follow with a printout of PowerPoint slides. In those cases I'd view them on my laptop because printing out 50 page presentations 3 nights a week was such a pain.

    10. Re:Note taking by garcia · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's just me, but I've tried taking notes on my laptop before and I just didn't retain the information as well as when I physically write notes with paper and pencil.

      Starting in 7th grade up through current time, I would take notes in pencil and then transcript those notes to an electronic medium for both permanent archival (I still have the notes from 7th grade although WP 5.1 files are difficult to open these days ;)) and reinforcement of the notes. I found it was much easier to look back through my notes (and search) when they were in an electronic format.

      Now that I'm taking a class online as part of my non-degree seeking continuing education, I find that it's not as effectual for me as sitting in a lecture -- I'd probably be better off with podcasts of the lecture along with transcribing my own notes. Everyone learns in a different way.

    11. Re:Note taking by hedwards · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Perhaps, but why should other students in your classes suffer? Laptops in the classroom are just obnoxious if the people with them are doing anything more than keeping up with powerpoint slides, and even that isn't the most useful as the cost of a proper projector has come down in price quite a bit over the last number of years.

      It does seem to me that using a computer really isn't a replacement for learning to write legibly. I can guarantee you that there isn't going to be an innovation in the near future which will make handwriting completely obsolete in most cases. With the exception of people with dyslexia or some other cognitive impairment, the ability to write legibly is something which comes with understanding the material.

      I've spent quite a bit of time working with students that have various impairments running from aspergers to dyslexia to severe anxiety, and it really does a lot of damage to people that might have a fair shot at achieving things in class if they can't write in a legible way. Laptops, or any computer for that matter, cannot replace the work that writing things out requires. Sure they can be very helpful in the learning process, but they still cannot be as efficient as doing things in a handwritten form.

    12. Re:Note taking by Otter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's no doubt due to my Ivy League education, but I have no idea why that's obvious. Am I supposed to be a particularly good typist (false) or have particularly poor handwriting (true)?

    13. Re:Note taking by smallferret · · Score: 1

      When I was in school, there were only a few classes where electronic note-taking was feasible. I spent too much time drawing diagrams, doing equations, and scribbling notes in the margins for a laptop to be worth it. There was one class where I took notes with an external keyboard on my PalmPilot, and that worked well simply because it was a pure lecture class really without diagrams.

    14. Re:Note taking by Notquitecajun · · Score: 1

      My issue when I was in class - and now in the business world - is that the major drawback of computers is the screens. Having a backlit screen - essentially staring at a light bulb for hours at a time - can't be good. I much prefer reading from paper...it seems to be less eye strain.

    15. Re:Note taking by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 0

      Perhaps, but why should other students in your classes suffer? Laptops in the classroom are just obnoxious In your opinion. I've never found laptops to intrude on my learning.

      It does seem to me that using a computer really isn't a replacement for learning to write legibly. I can guarantee you that there isn't going to be an innovation in the near future which will make handwriting completely obsolete in most cases. You're right, it isn't going to come, it has come. I find the times when I have to write by hand are growing less every day as I grow older. As such my writing is getting worse as I get older. I am not sadenned at losing this ability as I've always been able to type faster. I'm happy to be having less times when I must write by hand.
      --
      Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
    16. Re:Note taking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Same here... at least until I discovered mind mapping tools, like freemind.
      Now that's pretty close to my preference to simple pencil and paper....
      Major advantage is that I can reorganize my thoughts around a subject, add to it later as necessary and it's always organized in a way that makes sense to me. Plus it's easy to export the info to different formats without a whole lot of work.

    17. Re:Note taking by Volante3192 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Whenever I had a class where I'd worry I'd miss something important while taking notes, I'd bring along my microcassette recorder. Then I could go over my notes re-listening to the lecture and fill in gaps (and also make more effort to make the chicken scratches legible.)

      Course, some profs don't like cassette recorders, but I'd wager if they had to take either those or laptops, they'd go for recorders.

    18. Re:Note taking by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I'm not a student anymore, but I'm a bit of a digital-age kid, so I'll still offer my thoughts. For me, it has always been a bit of a trade-off. If I type, I can't draw little pictures and arrows all over the place. But if I use a notebook, I can't read my own writing. I grew up typing instead of writing, and my handwriting is horrible if I'm scribbling quick notes.

      My solution has been to write notes in a notebook, and then as soon as I get a chance, I review my notes in front of a computer, typing them up. If I review them quickly enough, I have an easier time reading my own writing.

      This has a few advantages. First, it gives me the quickness of jotting things down in a very free-form manner while I'm in the meeting, but also the clean final product of typewritten notes. Best of both worlds. Second, I'm effectively writing things twice, and the repetition helps me remember. Finally, when I'm typing my notes up, it gives me a chance to really review my notes, reorganize the ideas, look for connections between things, etc.

      It took me years to admit to myself that the extra work of taking notes and copying them was worth it, but it is.

    19. Re:Note taking by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's just me, but I've tried taking notes on my laptop before and I just didn't retain the information as well as when I physically write notes with paper and pencil. All depends on the person. I type 120wpm so note-taking is typically easier when I type. Of course, drawing diagrams is a bitch. I typically find that I retain less if I'm taking notes, be it typing or longhand. It's too distracting when i do that sort of thing, prevents me from seriously paying attention to what the instructor is saying. But in general, I suck at lecture instruction, puts me right to sleep. I suck at math, suck suck suck. I've always been a C student there, even when it's "easy" math. Had to take business calc for my degree. The instructor was a worthless meatbag and I would have failed if I paid attention in class. I showed up so as not to get marked absent but did all my studying with a comp sci friend who knew his shit. He walked me through the problems and I was able to learn in a conversational fashion. For me, that is key. Lecture puts me to sleep. If it's an active dialog, my brain is fully engaged and there's no way my mind can wander. I got an A in that class. An A! For me, especially in a math topic, that's a holy shit moment. And because there's no actual need for calculus in a business setting, I've forgotten everything about it. Stupid weed-out course, stupid education system.
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    20. Re:Note taking by Stooshie · · Score: 4, Informative

      ... some profs don't like cassette recorders ...

      I think that might have been the point of the original post. The profs are just going to have to adapt.

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    21. Re:Note taking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I would have thought it's more because humanities lectures are more likely to just be the lecturer talking about something as opposed to say an engineering type lecture where there are more likely to be diagrams and the like.

    22. Re:Note taking by toppavak · · Score: 1

      In my experience, taking notes for humanities on a laptop is significantly easier (I type much faster than I can write) and allows me to focus better than if I were hastily scribbling as much as possible since its easier to type without looking at your computer than it is to write without looking at your paper. For science/math/engineering courses you're absolutely right. I've never tried taking notes with a tablet as I dont own one, but you lose the advantage of being able to type quickly and efficiently even if you gain the ability to sketch diagrams. And text only notes for any of those courses would be completely useless.

    23. Re:Note taking by JSchoeck · · Score: 1
      Why not?

      If you propose a thesis you better bring forth some supporting arguments. It's just as easy to say "Laptops are more efficient in the learning progress than doing things in a handwritten form."
      I could even list a few reasons why this could be possible - even though I'm not even claiming that it's true!

    24. Re:Note taking by Stooshie · · Score: 1

      I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with laptops in the classroom, but I wouldn't say they have replaced handwriting.

      I have yet to find an application that allows me to plan (say) a database structure as quickly or as easily as a paper and pencil or a whiteboard (especially if there is more than one person invoved in the planning stage).

      Yes, I know if you plan it on the PC first you can convert it to SQL immediately etc... However, I always "step away from the computer" when planning any part of an application as the danger is I just start coding and before I know it I have written the structure and it's a lot more work to undo it.

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    25. Re:Note taking by shotgunsaint · · Score: 1

      I don't know how many different OS's it is available on, but I personally use Longhand for OSX. It's quite a nice text editor style calculator, but I haven't pushed its scientific capabilities so much. I'm sure that it has them, though.

      --
      The future isn't here until I can type "car keys" into Google and have it say "You left them in your pants last night."
    26. Re:Note taking by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      And in my opinion, anyone who claims to be a university graduate should be required to take and understand calculus.

      Calculus is a 400 year old math discipline, and regarded as a requirement for a classical education (something in which we have forgotten). One should also take philosophy and review the works of Plato, Sophocles, Aristotle, Euclid, and other Greek people.

      Yet, now we barely focus on what topic of study we choose, and not much else. I'm sure the American joke has been told: What are you called if you only speak 1 language? American.

      --
    27. Re:Note taking by danlock4 · · Score: 1

      I found that if I doodled while the professor was speaking, I remembered the lecture much better. I could later look at my doodles and remember what was being talked about as I looked at each part of the doodling (usually lines and squares and stuff). For the more important things I'd write textual notes, but I'm not sure I remembered those things as well. However, it was easier to read the notes later if they were textual (I didn't need to examine the "notes" as closely).

      --
      To .sig or not to .sig, that is the question.
    28. Re:Note taking by zen_sky · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's because your first learning experiences were with "pencil and paper". Most of our brains get hardwired with the initial learning context. I know it is almost impossible for me to learn without holding something in my hands. This applies to most college students as well. The real digital generation grew up with the *internet*, not random gadgets. I have a nephew that memorized and was typing in his (long, ugly) game url's since he was 4, before he could write. He is now 11 and at school he was having trouble learning the traditional way, even though he is very smart. His parents got him an account with online tutors from India, and his grades went to straight A's in a month. He is sucking everything in effortlessly as long as he is in front of a computer.

    29. Re:Note taking by edittard · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've never found laptops to intrude on my learning.
      Tha[tap]t's[tap] bec[tappety-tap]ause[tappity-click][tap] yo[tap]u nev[tappy-tappy]er [tap]sit [tap][tap]nex[tap]t to[tap] your[tappa-tappa-tappa]self[tap].
      --
      At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    30. Re:Note taking by hedwards · · Score: 1

      So in other words you've never actually taken a math course.

      There's a reason why any good math teacher requires a person to write their steps in detail on the way to an answer. If you can't be bothered to write out your work in a neat and tidy manner as you go, you aren't going to do it with a computer either. In the vast majority of cases an individual who doesn't write in a clear way the steps that they are doing will get it wrong eventually and have no idea why the distance to the moon is only a quarter million centimeters from the Earth.

      When it comes to English, journalism and similar classes editing and correcting on a computer screen just doesn't cut it. Sure you can print it out, but if you can't be bothered to write it out long hand, why on Earth should I be bothered to read it?

      It may work out well for short notes and short arguments, but the percentage of the populous that can do anything longer than a few paragraphs is actually pretty small. It takes quite a bit to put together a proper communique without having spent a huge amount of time trudging through things by hand.

      People who stick up for computers without actually understanding the reasons why it is not appropriate in academic situations really ought to try going to school and seeing how much help they are. I definitely don't want to convey the idea that computers aren't a help, but they aren't a panacea, they won't help one clear up the confusion of a new subject, and they won't reinforce the notion that two wrongs don't make a right even if you end up with the same correct answer that you would have had in the first place.

      And lastly, this isn't a debate, there is no inherent burden on me to support the statement. It isn't a thesis, it is a statement of fact. It is as needing of support as my handle is hedwards. If you require support of the "thesis" perhaps you should go volunteer to do some tutoring of individuals with learning disabilities, then come back and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Debates are really only possible when both sides can agree upon the terms and scope of the argument, and you haven't given any indication that you have relevant experience to make a proper agreement. Without which no debate can take place.

    31. Re:Note taking by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

      Then get a keyboard that doesnt go 'tap-tap'? Pretend you are typing on the surface of your desk... There are plenty of keyboards *AT LEAST* that quiet, some virtually silent.

    32. Re:Note taking by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 1

      Actually in courses where I didn't use a laptop (e.g. Maths) I did sit next to those who used laptops and again didn't find it intruding on my learning.

      --
      Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
    33. Re:Note taking by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

      Paper and pencil for planning are completely obsolesced by a good tablet and stylus. Take everything you can do with paper and pencil, add the ability to save and duplicate your work, throw in a dash of cut/copy/paste, and give up paper forever.

    34. Re:Note taking by rengav · · Score: 1

      I agree! As a part time college professor (geology/oceanography) and recovering High School teacher (chemistry/physics/earth science), I have found both from my own experience as a student and my experience on the other side of the desk that handwritten notes are the best way to go for the student. As many have pointed out most people can draw a diagram or an equation by hand faster than they can on a computer. However, the physical act of forming the letters and words in your head then making your hand make those same letters and words imprints the information in the brain much more firmly than typing does. I'm sure that some psychologist has done a thesis on this very topic (or at least I hope one has, if they haven't it would be a great research project).

      I do use PowerPoint (ok, I use Keynote, I'm a MacLover) for my lectures, more because it's less labor intensive for me versus hand writing my notes on the whiteboard (I do miss chalkboards, there's just something about the feel of the chalk in your hand as you drag it across the board that is just not there when working with dry erase). I also have better diagrams and images in my PowerPoints than I could ever draw freehand (and I don't get blinded by looking into the bright light of an overhead projector). Once you bring in embedded video in PowerPoint, it really brings new visuals to the learning experience.

      One drawback that I do see about using PowerPoint is that the professor doesn't have multiple pages of notes up on the board at one time, as my professors did. In a larger lecture hall, my professors would have 6 blackboards to work with. As a student, I found being able to refer to exactly what the professor wrote 10 minutes ago very useful. If I could set up a lecture hall to be perfect, there would be two projectors for the PowerPoint showing two slides, another projector for a document camera that could also be used for close ups of samples, demonstrations, etc., and stadium seating so that no one has to look through someone else's head to see me or the info.

      I refuse to print out my presentations as slides for my students. I've done it in the past and one semester I had the students ask me to stop, they preferred to write their own notes. One problem that I have noticed is that very few students really know how to take notes. The vast majority just copy exactly what's on the slide and call it note-taking. I repeatedly say, "Feel free to paraphrase what is on the slide, you don't need to write it down word for word." To help my students I have been going through my presentations and streamlining them, reducing the amount of text on each slide, in essence paraphrasing for them.

    35. Re:Note taking by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      And in my opinion, anyone who claims to be a university graduate should be required to take and understand calculus.

      Calculus is a 400 year old math discipline, and regarded as a requirement for a classical education (something in which we have forgotten). One should also take philosophy and review the works of Plato, Sophocles, Aristotle, Euclid, and other Greek people.

      Yet, now we barely focus on what topic of study we choose, and not much else. I'm sure the American joke has been told: What are you called if you only speak 1 language? American.
      -- You can lead a man to culture but you can't make him think. Yes, Calculus is a useful thing. So is linear algebra and differential equations. You know what else? Animal husbandry was key to the development of civilization. So let's make everyone learn how to breed cows as part of a classical education. Hmm, doesn't make as much sense now, does it? Just because something is useful to know in a given subject does not mean that people outside of the subject have to be familiar with it. For example, in computers: recognizing a properly formatted email address, everyone should know that. Setting up a new Exchange server, nobody but sysadmins should have to bother with it. Teaching calc to people outside of math and engineering degrees is a waste of effort. I didn't need to know it then, I don't need to know it now, and if I ever did need to know it in the future, I'd have to teach it all to myself again anyways because I don't remember any of it.

      As for your love of the greeks, you do not instill an appreciation of culture by force-feeding it down people's throats and giving them a test on it later. Not everyone is meant to be a renaissance man, some people are just as happy to be bricklayers or factory workers or craftsmen. A lifelong pursuit of learning is a good thing but the best you'll do by trying to beat it into people is fostering a lifelong dislike of learning.
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    36. Re:Note taking by hedwards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sigh, it isn't my opinion, it is a long standing tradition in the academic world that people not make unnecessary noises during a class period. It is a distracting and rude thing to do. It really isn't any different than talking in class or popping bubble gum.

      The decision to ban extra noise from classrooms isn't based upon what the least distracted people think, it based upon what the more easily distracted people think. If laptops were a genuine necessity, then there would be an argument that these people are being unreasonable, but laptops don't confer a unique benefit for the majority of the users, they can and should be kept out of the classroom.

      I do take issue with your assertion that handwritten notes and letters are already obsolete. That lacks a certain degree of awareness of why one writes in the first place. One doesn't write because there aren't any other ways of communicating, one writes it out because you can be guaranteed of being able to do it anywhere that you can get a writing implement and something to write on. One also doesn't need to have electricity to show others what was written. For millenia there have been cultures that don't write at all, they just had to memorize the information. Handwriting is still the best way of learning to organize thoughts that one is trying to communicate to others. I guarantee that a computer can't do that now.

      And PS thanks for highlighting the fact that it isn't just young people that are getting less and less polite as time goes on.

    37. Re:Note taking by Don853 · · Score: 1

      My girlfriend did a semester abroad (from the US) at U of Nottingham studying Chemical Engineering. She came back with the impression that the American schools, at least for someone pursuing an engineering degree, have liberal arts requirements than Nottingham didn't. There it was considered strange that she was taking a humanities class on the side of the ChemE curriculum. I don't know if this is typical of European Universities or not. I tend to agree, in general, that students should get as broad an education as possible, but given the ridiculous cost of schooling over here I can understand why people would rather avoid an extra semester or year if they're able.

      As for the one language... it's only a matter of time before we'll all have to learn Spanish, too.

    38. Re:Note taking by somersault · · Score: 1

      Only there aren't that many 100 year old professors kicking about who haven't moven on from wax records yet

      --
      which is totally what she said
    39. Re:Note taking by curri · · Score: 1

      Yes and no :) To tell you the truth, I've not used a tablet regularly, and I'm sure if I did, I'd appreciate its advantages, but pencil and paper have its advantages, including ubiquity, cost and resilience (I'm sure I'd eventually break my tablet if I used one as much as I use pencil and paper :). BTW, I can scan and photocopy, if I need to :)

    40. Re:Note taking by JSchoeck · · Score: 1
      I have spent 12 years in school and 5 in university, so I think I'm quite able to judge this. Oh and by the way, I've never used a laptop in a course to take notes.

      You know, actually reading what someone writes helps sometimes - no matter if it's handwritten or printed out. Go read that last sentence of my first post.

    41. Re:Note taking by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      And there are even some that are EXACTLY that quiet: laser keyboards :) (I have no connection with the company, it's just the first result that came up in Google)

    42. Re:Note taking by aeoo · · Score: 1

      The question was whether or not "Ivy League" is a relevant bit of information (and even obviously so). I think it's not only not obvious, but it is false. There is nothing special/specific about Ivy League lectures that makes them better candidates for a notebook note taking.

    43. Re:Note taking by saltydogdesign · · Score: 1

      I used to take notes by hand, then the first thing I did when I got back to my apt was to type them into the computer. This process did wonders for me -- I barely had to study for tests at all.

      --
      // This is not a sig.
    44. Re:Note taking by sam_paris · · Score: 1

      When I was at college I didn't even bother with the lectures. All of the notes were available in great detail online. I simply had to print them all off and make sure I revised well for the exams. :)

    45. Re:Note taking by masdog · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but why should other students in your classes suffer? Laptops in the classroom are just obnoxious if the people with them are doing anything more than keeping up with powerpoint slides, and even that isn't the most useful as the cost of a proper projector has come down in price quite a bit over the last number of years.

      But it wasn't just for keeping up with powerpoint slides. I had a lot of professors who used blackboard and chalk. When I used my laptop the way it was meant to be used, it allowed me to keep up with them and stay focused on the lecture instead of worrying if I got everything written down. I was able to process the lectures quicker and ask better questions.

      When it comes time to share my notes with my friends after class, I can just email them a copy instead of giving up my notebook. If I want to refer to my notes a few months or years later, I'm not looking for the notebook, and I can find the lesson I need using a simple text search. Sure they can be very helpful in the learning process, but they still cannot be as efficient as doing things in a handwritten form.

      I disagree. First, I've discovered (and this is only true with me...ymmv) that when handwriting my notes, I'm paying more attention to my writing and whether I've missed something instead of focusing on the lecture. Then, if I wanted to retain the notes or share them with classmates or friends, I'm typing the notes up because I don't want to give my notebook away. Its not more efficent for me to write my notes then retype them.

    46. Re:Note taking by megaditto · · Score: 1

      I would imagine Ivy League would have a lot of celebrity-like professors ad-libbing the material for their next book, then asking exam questions on it?

      Or perhaps socratic format of teaching so liked by the leftist professors there (where if you fall behind on the dialog, you are lost)?

      Or perhaps because the class sizes of into. humanities at Ivy League are so large, the lecturers so unapproachable, and the grading so tough that having a complete transcript of the class material gives you a little extra advantage?

      Of course, a lot of the better students at Ivy League actually pay others to do their work, so neither of that might be an issue...

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    47. Re:Note taking by LuYu · · Score: 1

      Maybe it is just me, but I always thought note taking was a distraction keeping my attention on writing and away from what the professor was actually saying.

      In any case, this is all irrelevant. Now that it is possible, do professors actually have any excuse not to give full compressed video, audio, text, and even slides or any other supplementary materials from every lecture they give? A single TA could compile all this material in a single semester, and it would be ready for all future students. I doubt if such information would exceed a CD per semester, and such materials would be of far greater use that notes rapidly scribbled as one tries to keep up with class.

      If students have laptops in class or computers at home, why should they have to take notes at all?

      --
      All data is speech. All speech is Free.
    48. Re:Note taking by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 1

      I refuse to print out my presentations as slides for my students. I've done it in the past and one semester I had the students ask me to stop, they preferred to write their own notes.
      Why would you print them? I'm sure most of them can work with the files.

    49. Re:Note taking by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 1

      It's not all that hard to take notes in engineering classes on a standard laptop and it's easier to do with a tablet than in a paper notebook. Equations aren't that bad to type if you have a decent formula editor such as is in OpenOffice.org Writer, but yeah, it'd suck if you used MS Equation Editor.

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    50. Re:Note taking by mackyrae · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That bit about "where you are guaranteed to have a writing implement" is an issue for me. My laptop leaves my side only at mealtime and when traveling to work (where I also have a computer), and even at those times it is often with me. Finding a pen or pencil is a problem though. Today the teacher handed out a quiz, and I didn't have a pen or pencil because I do not expect to *ever* need a pen or pencil except for midterms and finals. Analog writing implements are not something I use on a regular basis, so I never carry them with me. My laptop is in constant use, though.

      --
      look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
    51. Re:Note taking by laejoh · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but I'll never give up on my IBM Model M Keyboard!

    52. Re:Note taking by oliphaunt · · Score: 1

      It must be nice to be able to read your own handwriting three months later. I can't. And never mind that I can type essentially as fast as my profs can speak. My handwriting speed can't possibly keep up.

      But if it works for you...

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    53. Re:Note taking by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      I'm with you on everything - especially the blackboard part. As much as I sympathize regarding workload and power point, I always learned better when the teacher was writing during the lecture. This is especially true in chemistry. Not even animated power points quite capture the instructive power of erasing and re-drawing chemical bonds. I feel similarly about math and engineering courses, the teacher deriving expressions by hand is much more informative than watching line after line of a solved problem show up on the projector screen.

    54. Re:Note taking by oliphaunt · · Score: 1

      The profs are just going to have to adapt.


      Or not- and then students will just refuse to take their classes. There's a prof here who doesn't allow laptops in class- and many many students avoid her classes becuase of that limitation. I guess she has tenure, so she can do what she wants... but if you don't give your customers what they want, they will go somewhere else.
      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    55. Re:Note taking by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      One doesn't write because there aren't any other ways of communicating, one writes it out because you can be guaranteed of being able to do it anywhere that you can get a writing implement and something to write on. No. One writes because there isn't anything better at the time.

      It used to be that we hand-wrote every single book, then we had the first printing presses. Then we only hand-wrote flyers and low-volume books, until we got movable type. And then we hand-wrote letters and calculations, until we got typewriters and the first computers. And so on, and so on.

      Your point about being able to write is a valid one -- if you cannot pick up a pen and paper and write down your thoughts, you're lacking in as basic a skill as reading. But just because a skill is basic doesn't mean that it's a best practice.

      I still have notes from every class I brought my laptop to. I rarely kept my notes for a no-laptop class through the end of a semester. When you get right down to it, the fleeting impermanence of handwritten notes just makes them unworkable for anything except a one-time mnemonic device.
    56. Re:Note taking by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Which you carry around in a laptop bag and hook up before class? The subject is using laptops for notes... A model M would probably outweigh any reasonably new laptop you hooked it up to :-)

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    57. Re:Note taking by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "It does seem to me that using a computer really isn't a replacement for learning to write legibly. I can guarantee you that there isn't going to be an innovation in the near future which will make handwriting completely obsolete in most cases. With the exception of people with dyslexia or some other cognitive impairment, the ability to write legibly is something which comes with understanding the material."

      During the years from college till now...working pretty much exclusively with computers...I type EVERYTHING...my handwriting has gone from pretty poor back then...to pretty much illegible now.

      The only thing I write in cursive is my signature, and pretty much only the first letter can be made out by the avg. human. Everything else, I write with all caps., block letters. And those are now hard to read.

      I just noticed the other day, having to hand address 6 or so envelopes...my hand started to ache. amazing that the muscles used for writing can atrophy a bit when you don't use them.

      But, really...if I want to send something snail mail...I have to type it...no one can read my handwriting these days.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    58. Re:Note taking by MrSteveSD · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. It's 10 years since I was at Uni, but I remember frantically scribbling things down at the expense of really trying to understand what the lecturer was saying. I remember occasionally pausing to shake my hand in an attempt to alleviate the cramp. Then there is the almost inevitable point when the ring binder goes wrong and all your notes fall out on the lecture room floor.

    59. Re:Note taking by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      ----You can lead a man to culture but you can't make him think.

      Something akin to this statement was found on a wall in a 300 level pathology lab:
      "For some people, bacteria is the only culture they have."

      ---Yes, Calculus is a useful thing. So is linear algebra and differential equations. You know what else? Animal husbandry was key to the development of civilization. So let's make everyone learn how to breed cows as part of a classical education. Hmm, doesn't make as much sense now, does it?

      Wrong. Animal husbandry does not consist of the basic skills of reading and how to use numbers. Perhaps people, outside of college, will not use them, but that is up to them.

      I was discussing a subset of people: University graduates. I was not talking about the trades or other manual labor. However, it is to be argued that even tradesmen should know something about the classics and moderate level algebra, as so they can raise their standard of living for not only them, but those who they live with.

      ---Just because something is useful to know in a given subject does not mean that people outside of the subject have to be familiar with it.

      Most people can barely tell who the last 5 presidents were, let alone who their elected representative is in their district. As it is today, people care more about what the "In" people are doing, and who is popular, and who isn't. Instead, people do very little/no means to better themselves. Are they capable of bettering their lives? Of course they are!

      ---For example, in computers: recognizing a properly formatted email address, everyone should know that. Setting up a new Exchange server, nobody but sysadmins should have to bother with it. Teaching calc to people outside of math and engineering degrees is a waste of effort. I didn't need to know it then, I don't need to know it now, and if I ever did need to know it in the future, I'd have to teach it all to myself again anyways because I don't remember any of it.

      That is my point. Those intelligent enough to teach oneself a skill is what I'd hope we all would accomplish. Teaching how to learn is the best skill above all, in which all people should master.

      ---As for your love of the greeks, you do not instill an appreciation of culture by force-feeding it down people's throats and giving them a test on it later.

      Don't patronize me. I know how the Greeks taught, and how they communicated knowledge and scholastic studies. They didn't. There were no schools in Athens.

      ---Not everyone is meant to be a renaissance man, some people are just as happy to be bricklayers or factory workers or craftsmen. A lifelong pursuit of learning is a good thing but the best you'll do by trying to beat it into people is fostering a lifelong dislike of learning.

      Like I said before, anybody who graduates from a University should be required to know the basics of Calculus. I said nothing of the trades.

      --
    60. Re:Note taking by Enlightenment · · Score: 1

      True. But there are incoming technologies that can help. See for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_paper No power draw for a static image, no backlight, bendable. But for now I'll stick with paper.

    61. Re:Note taking by kalaf · · Score: 1

      My first year Chemistry prof had PowerPoint notes we could download. I was the only one with a laptop (donated by work) and I used to type notes into the margins with some success. I eventually found it easier to just print the notes and write in the margins. I imagine a tablet PC would be useful as a kind of hybrid, although I wouldn't get a laptop with a <15" display and UXGA resolution, and I don't think the tablet PCs come with those specs...

      That was over 10 years ago now, I imagine things have changed a bit since then...

    62. Re:Note taking by It'sYerMam · · Score: 1

      I took an exam opposite someone who used a laptop due to a medical condition (not dyslexia) and managed fine in that.

      --
      im in ur .sig, writin ur memes.
    63. Re:Note taking by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Lecture puts me to sleep. If it's an active dialog, my brain is fully engaged and there's no way my mind can wander. I got an A in that class.

      Reminds me of a remark that I've seen in a few places: The classroom lecture is the best method yet discovered for teaching students who can't read.

      Actually, I remember reading years ago a study of the efficacy of various teaching methods. The lecture method came out inferior to all the other methods tested. Not that it was ineffective; it mostly just used a lot more time to get any particular information across. So, of course, it's the method most used by our school system.

      A video recording of a lecture illustrates the problem nicely: It's faster than the actual lecture, because the student can fast-forward through the parts that they already know. And it's more effective for the opposite reason: The student can back up and repeat something that they didn't catch the first time.

      For a good reader, printed material speeds up both of these actions significantly, so for topics that don't actually require moving pictures, a printed text (or computer display) tends to be the fastest. The main disadvantage of computer texts is that they are mostly limited to less than one screenful at a time, and searching through a large text is often much slower than flipping through pages of a book. Eventually computer people might come up with a good solution to this defect. (This may have already been done, but if so, the method isn't widely known.)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    64. Re:Note taking by SunTzuWarmaster · · Score: 1

      There is a 12-year-old girl in my OptoElectronics* class (why? no idea) that takes notes on a laptop by using a stylus like a pencil into a note-taking program (OneNote?), which converts written characters to keyboard characters.

      *class is extremely non-standard (internet-based class with live session where the professor draws on a monitor/touchpad with a stylus which digitally inserts images over the powerpoint slides)

    65. Re:Note taking by dreethal · · Score: 1

      I've driven many English teachers and peers nuts with that keyboard. It really does echo through a quiet classroom. Sucked, because that was the only keyboard I had availabile at the time, because someone had tossed a baseball towards me and it hit the laptop keyboard warping it. So, I suppose that was adequate revenge.

    66. Re:Note taking by BarlowBrad · · Score: 1

      I retain more by handwriting notes as well, but I find that if I need to go back and study those notes (which I usually do), I've taken more copious notes on a laptop than by hand. In the long run, using a laptop to take notes benefits me more than paper and pencil. (Obvious exception being when formulas, equations, charts, graphs, etc. are needing to be copied down.)

    67. Re:Note taking by jhutch2000 · · Score: 1

      As soon as they get a handheld tablet that really feels good to work with (read: needs to be extremely thin so you wrist doesn't protest violently when you start taking lots of notes) this will be perfect, imo.

    68. Re:Note taking by Bluesman · · Score: 1

      If you learn LaTeX only for the equations, it's worth it.

      Open Office's equation editor is the same idea, but a bit more verbose, which slows everything down.

      --
      If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    69. Re:Note taking by Bluesman · · Score: 1

      "And in my opinion, anyone who claims to be a university graduate should be required to take and understand calculus."

      Well, I think that everyone should have to take up through Calculus III, since it's been around almost as long, and you can't understand weather reports in great detail unless you know how gradients work.

      And differential equations, linear algebra, and advanced probability and statistics, too. You're just not well educated unless you can compute a covariance matrix in your head.

      You should also know about the fundamentals of electromagnetic theory and how electrical waves propagate through a transmission line. And if you don't know how to do a link-budget analysis of a satellite link and also calculate where that satellite will be in relation to a ground station, then you can't really call yourself educated.

      And how many people who graduate today actually know anything about state space control systems equations? Precious few, and yet I think it's very important since it's used all the time.

      Not only that, but people only learn one foreign language, and it's usually something that's only come into fashion recently like French. All courses should be taught in Latin, or better yet, Aramaic. It worked for many centuries, why shouldn't it work today? We graduated plenty of priests who were a lot more knowledgeable than the people who call themselves "graduates" today.

      --
      If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    70. Re:Note taking by Sczi · · Score: 1

      If I wrote down notes, I tended to miss parts of the lecture, usually important stuff.
      I didn't have that problem with the notebook.


      Amen to that, I write super slow, and it takes too much concentration. If I don't try to take notes and just pay attention, I retain fairly well, but if try to take notes, I'm screwed. Not only do I tune out some of the prof's lecture, but I typically can't even keep up fast enough to have a complete set of notes at the end anyway, so I'm double screwed.. I never did try taking notes on a laptop, though.. I wish they were more common back then, but I'd have felt like I was sticking out too much.. plus all the clicking..

    71. Re:Note taking by The+Tyler · · Score: 1

      But the biggest problem for me with writing is the speed. I write slow. I type about three times faster than I write. Many times I miss what the teacher has to say because I am busy taking down the notes. Typing is much faster, can backed up easier, and gives me more time to actually hear what I am supposed to learn. And if you hear keys clicking, than don't use a clicky keyboard.

    72. Re:Note taking by DeepZenPill · · Score: 1

      It's also pretty distracting to sit behind someone who is stalking people on facebook, sending IMs, or watching youtube rather than taking notes.

    73. Re:Note taking by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      For a good reader, printed material speeds up both of these actions significantly, so for topics that don't actually require moving pictures, a printed text (or computer display) tends to be the fastest. The main disadvantage of computer texts is that they are mostly limited to less than one screenful at a time, and searching through a large text is often much slower than flipping through pages of a book. Eventually computer people might come up with a good solution to this defect. (This may have already been done, but if so, the method isn't widely known.) Ctrl-F and typing in your keyword works fine. Adobe PDF is pretty quick at letting you scroll through pages if you recognize a general pattern but not the words. Between the two of them, that kicks ass. Sucks if you like doodling in margins or writing your own notes or highlighting and the like. Again, comes down to personal preference.
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    74. Re:Note taking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its nice to be able to hear a lecture over again encase I missed important info during note taking.

      Yeah, I think you did miss something.

    75. Re:Note taking by aeoo · · Score: 1

      LOL

      Please tell me my sarcasm detector is still operational.

    76. Re:Note taking by minorproblem · · Score: 1

      I remember my favourite lecturer was my Physics Lecture he looked like the Doc from back to the future, and we would all come in and to quite us down he would play a Pink Floyd or Metallica video clip full volume on the projector. He would then do the whole class on the black board with heaps of cool demonstrations (such as blowing up a bin with liquid nitrogen to show the expansion of gases or making a ball bearing gun to show inertia). And at the end he would have a 15 minute open discussion and just fire off questions into the audience. This is probably one of the few classes where i can remember almost all the lectures clearly all these years later!

    77. Re:Note taking by pasamio · · Score: 1

      I'm the same, I write slow and to write at any pace makes my notes unreadable even to me. However I can touch type, which means I can actually look at the lecture or any presentation and still take notes at a faster pace than what I hand write. Using a keyboard is then more useful than attempting to write because I have to look down to write.

      --
      I always wondered where this setting was...
    78. Re:Note taking by rizzo420 · · Score: 1

      the problem with that is while most laptop keyboards are pretty quiet (and no student is going to being a laptop and a quieter keyboard), the faster typing as students try to keep up with the professor will make more noise than just someone writing a paper. multiply that about 20-40 and unless the keyboards are next to silent (which they aren't), it gets quite annoying.

      then add in the 65% of students who are also chatting with friends on AIM and it gets worse.

      --
      please me, have no regrets.
    79. Re:Note taking by postillion · · Score: 1

      I must be suffering a case of outdated values. Having many friends who teach Humanities, one of the largest complaints they have is getting their students to engage in a discussion. A professor is not merely a lecturer but someone who acts in a dynamic relationship with his students. Slides, notes and a video is not the value of an education, in my humble opinion. Rather, I contend that the valud of an education still lies in learning how to think critically, whether one takes notes with a pencil or on a laptop. And in order for students to learn this valuable life-enriching activity, it's important that they think about what is being said by their professor, their fellow-students, process the knowledge and then respond to it. While computers might be able to faciliate such an activity, I doubt that watching a series of powerpoint presentations is really what is needed in universities.

    80. Re: Re:Note taking by rnturn · · Score: 1

      "Or not- and then students will just refuse to take their classes."

      That's the student's loss. It's called adapting to the environment. It's something you'll need to learn to do to get by in the future.

      "There's a prof here who doesn't allow laptops in class- and many many students avoid her classes becuase of that limitation."

      Perhaps the professor would rather that the students, oh I don't know, pay attention during the lecture and discussions. Nothing says "what I'm doing is more important than what you're saying" than tapping on a keyboard during a lecture. I'd bet my next paycheck that the professor's policy has a lot more to do with eliminating distractions during her lectures and virtually nothing to do with technophobia. If you're staring at your laptop, the professor has no feedback available to determine whether your "getting it". Personally, I'm hoping that it's a required class and she's the only faculty member in the department that's teaching it.

      "... but if you don't give your customers what they want, they will go somewhere else."

      Great attitude. Right up there with parent suing K-12 teachers for giving little Johnny something other than an "A" even when he doesn't perform to "A" standards. When did a college/university education become a product like a latte? Sure you pay tuition but that doesn't guarantee that you will receive a education. (Though you might get a sheepskin at the end of your four years.) That tuition is only a part of what you pay for that education.

      BTW, you'll find this out when you enter the Real World (tm) and find that the folks who insist on typing on their all-important laptops -- and other personal "productivity" gadgets -- during meetings offer little to nothing to the discourse. (Hopefully there is someone there taking notes on their laptop for the meeting minutes but they're not generally expected to be contributing the meeting lest the minutes have gaps.) Most attendees are not impressed that the fellow who never once made eye contact after the introductions and was busily tapping away on his laptop during a meeting was forwarding you some email that was being discussed at the meeting. (If he'd been paying attention, perhaps he would have noticed that someone had already printed copies for the attendees and which were quite useful to take notes on). And meetings centered around someone's laptop are almost universally Dilbertesque in their uselessness. It's a given that ten minutes will be wasted on setting up a projector, the fonts will be too squinty to be read by the attendees, the presenter will click on the wrong menu item and hose the program, they will not be able to find a file they wanted everyone to see, and the damned laptop will blue screen at least once during the meeting. (But isn't that wallpaper of the kids just too cute?)

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    81. Re:Note taking by laejoh · · Score: 0

      I agree, but the type-vergnügen makes up for the extre weight.

    82. Re:Note taking by Karthikkito · · Score: 1

      Don't patronize me. I know how the Greeks taught, and how they communicated knowledge and scholastic studies. They didn't. There were no schools in Athens. Except Plato's academy which was closed in 529CE. Oh, and the peripatetic school of Aristotle (not formal schools as with Plato, but more of an informal paid lecture). The Greeks very much did teach and communicate knowledge and perform scholastic studies.
    83. Re:Note taking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For what it's worth, I'm a college student now and for any course not diagram-heavy (other than Japanese, where the writing part is something I need to learn anyway), I take all my notes in LaTeX. It significantly improves the quality of my notes for mathematics courses, in particular.

    84. Re:Note taking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the prof was smart about it, instead of disallowing laptops completely - make sure they're actually used productively instead of for screwing off. So you should have a class policy that states anyone bringing a computer that day can be required to have their notes made available online for that class. No notes, no attendance credit for that day. Or something of the sort.

      I doubt it would take long to figure out who's serious about the class and who's IM'ing their friends or playing freecell during classtime. And an additional plus is that it might provide a service for the poorer note takers in class.

    85. Re:Note taking by Stooshie · · Score: 1

      ... the fleeting impermanence of handwritten notes ...

      If I go to the British Library, I can look at books that are (at least) 600 years old. Not only that but I can see handwritten notes in them by people like Sir Isaac Newton, in their own handwriting (which tells you a lot about the man, quite apart from the content of the notes).

      There are some types of media that are now obsolete after only 30 years. It is either impossible or extremely expensive to read them now as no-one knows how to, or a piece of specialised equipment needs to be built to read it.

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    86. Re:Note taking by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Yet the word itself, Skole, meant leisure and relaxation.

      "Schools" in that day and age was places of communication and rhetoric. It was NOT a place of enforced learning, as we see happen in the Spartans.

      Enforced, mandatory schooling was the extreme insult for learned peoples.

      --
    87. Re:Note taking by JimFive · · Score: 1

      If students have laptops in class or computers at home, why should they have to take notes at all?
      Oh, I don't know. Maybe so that they actually learn the material.

      Taking a class isn't about collecting a media presentation.
      --
      JimFive
      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    88. Re:Note taking by JimFive · · Score: 1

      And never mind that I can type essentially as fast as my profs can speak. My handwriting speed can't possibly keep up.

      People keep saying stuff like this. It's note taking, not creating a transcript. Part of note taking is only writing the important bits. If you aren't keeping up you are probably not being discriminating enough about what is important. If your writing is really that much too slow then abbreviate or learn shorthand, heck use a tape recorder.

      ---
      JimFive
      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    89. Re:Note taking by LuYu · · Score: 1

      You have hit my point exactly. I have said in previous discussions that the lecture has been old technology since the invention of the book -- and note taking is even further back on the educational evolutionary scale.

      With all these other technologies, the professor can get the prerequisite knowledge out of the way, and concentrate on asking questions. Since archiving is easy, excellent questions of the past could be included in the material given to the students. Students could then be expected to invent new questions each time.

      This would keep professors on their toes. They would have to make sure they had thorough answers to previous questions, and they would have to think quickly (or even once in a while actually say "I don't know").

      This would also keep students on their toes. They might be able to claim they did not have time to read a book, but who does not have time to listen to an audio recording while on the bus or jogging? Everybody has mp3 players nowadays. And all the students would benefit more if they were better informed when they came to class.

      So, if you missed my point, it was this: The classroom is not a place for a lecture or taking notes, it is a place to play with the information one has learned and to ask a more experienced or knowledgeable person about the parts one does not understand. Digital technology only helps in getting the preliminaries out of the way.

      --
      All data is speech. All speech is Free.
    90. Re:Note taking by LuYu · · Score: 1

      How does note taking improve learning? I have never experienced this. This is probably an individual thing, but every time I took notes in university, I more or less missed the lecture. I also found that I had difficulty understanding what I wrote afterwards. So, in essence, I was wasting my class time writing down something that I would not be able to read later.

      While this may not be everyone's experience, note taking certainly cannot be assumed to make people learn. Further, a more complete record of what went on in the class would be more useful when it came time to review. Students learn in different ways, but everyone learns when they review class material -- unless of course the student has a photographic memory.

      Basically, the students should spend their time learning from the teacher what they cannot learn from books or fixed materials. They should not be spending their time writing. If copying down everything the professor says helps you learn, use the video or audio of the lecture to copy when you are studying.

      --
      All data is speech. All speech is Free.
    91. Re:Note taking by JimFive · · Score: 1

      If copying down everything the professor says helps you learn

      Note taking is not creating a transcript. Note taking is thinking critically about the material being presented and writing down enough of the important bits so that you can remember it.

      How does note taking improve learning? I have never experienced this. This is probably an individual thing, but every time I took notes in university, I more or less missed the lecture. I also found that I had difficulty understanding what I wrote afterwards. So, in essence, I was wasting my class time writing down something that I would not be able to read later.

      Note taking improves learning by forcing the listener to pay critical attention to the material being presented. If you are taking notes, how can you be missing the lecture? How can you be taking notes on something that you are missing? I suspect that you were attempting to transcribe the lecture, not take notes on it. If you can't read your own writing then learn to write more clearly (or use a writing implement with a finer tip).

      Oddly, I was reprimanded several times in Freshman classes for not taking notes because I only wrote down those things that I (a) didn't already know, (b) believed to be important and (c) wouldn't be able to remember.

      I will agree with an earlier poster that lectures may be outmoded by providing mp3s of the lecture in coordination with a slideshow that can be viewed prior to a discussion period. When I was at university we had Lecture Periods, discussion (recitation) periods and lab periods as appropriate for the class. Certainly, most of those Lecture period could have been replaced by a video clip of sufficient clarity which is probably much more practicable now than it was then.

      --
      JimFive
      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    92. Re:Note taking by oliphaunt · · Score: 1

      That's the point, dude. The profs won't allow me to record lectures, or I would do so. I'm not taking freshman chemistry any more. Sometimes a prof's castaway phrase or emphasis on a particular case is the most important thing to know for an exam- but in the second class of the year, when I won't have a the only graded exam until 15 weeks later, how the hell am I supposed to decide in advance what is important?

      That's why I've got to get everything in the first couple of weeks. Later on in the course it's easier to know what matters and what doesn't, but up front, EVERYTHING is important.

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    93. Re:Note taking by oliphaunt · · Score: 1

      Or just disable the internet. I'm sure she just doesn't want people chatting or surfing the web when she goes of on her alcoholic tangents- I don't think that the actual typing is the problem as much as the tuning out from class. Can't bear to think that she's not the most interesting thing in the room.

      But- it's 2007. Why should I pay $10,000 per term to take classes from a drunk who won't let me either skip her worthless lectures or at least sit in the back and check my email while she's prattling on about which client paid her more for less work, or what she had for lunch with her bottle of chardonnay?

      Thanks, but no thanks. I'll just wait to take the same class from a different prof.

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    94. Re: Re:Note taking by oliphaunt · · Score: 1

      It's called adapting to the environment. It's something you'll need to learn to do to get by in the future.
      You have a surprisingly stodgy viewpoint for someone who has figured out how to use the internet. Why should I adapt to the environment, when I can change it to suit me?

      If you're staring at your laptop, the professor has no feedback available to determine whether you're "getting it". Personally, I'm hoping that it's a required class and she's the only faculty member in the department who is teaching it.
      Fixed that for you. And sorry to disappoint, but it's not, and she ain't. I'll take the same class from someone more sober and less technophobic next term. Why so defensive, and why do you wish me ill? Feeling sorry for teachers? You know what they say, "Those who can, do. Those who can't ..."

      you'll find this out when you enter the Real World . . . .
      I worked in the real world for almost ten years after college. I quit a job that paid six figures to go back to school. I refuse to accept "teachers" who insist on treating my classmates and me like children. The school requires me to own a laptop; I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect that the school will allow me to use it.
      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
  2. "Evolving?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Let's hope the folks in Kansas don't hear about this.

    1. Re:"Evolving?" by Cctoide · · Score: 1

      Evolution? Wartortle is evolving!

      --
      "Let's face it, it's a good story. Accuracy would kill it."
  3. Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What does that mean for professors and their teaching methods?"

    Nothing. We're all old-school around here when it comes to teaching.

    1. Re:Back in the day... by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 1

      I feel sorry for your children who have to deal with your inferior methods. For example I write my notes before attending my lecture by reading the lecture notes provided. I can follow along more easily and only have to add what is communicated verbally into my notes.

      --
      Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
    2. Re:Back in the day... by Uthic · · Score: 1

      Funny how the "inferior" way has produced competent students for a long time.

    3. Re:Back in the day... by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 1

      Inferior does not imply bad, simply not as good. People use to ride around on perfectly healthy and usable horses for a long, long time. I'd still call them inferior to travelling by an automobile though.

      --
      Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
    4. Re:Back in the day... by NeilTheStupidHead · · Score: 1

      I bet your car doesn't run up when you whistle either. ^>^

      --
      Lose: misplace or fail || Loose: not bound together
  4. Change along with technology required to be heard by saveonweb · · Score: 1

    I have had professors who acted on change in technology to keep-up with students and there were some who absolutely ignored it. The impact was, professors who changed themselves to accept the new technologies and incorporated them into their teaching method were able to convey their message across and were better accepted by the students. On the other hand those who did not do anything to change themselves became less popular.

  5. ...Evolving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Man, that No Child Left Behind thing must be knocking off more students than I thought!

    "..but, but, I can get better! I can learn!"

    "Sorry, kid, but no child gets left behind. [Click]"

  6. AntiSocial society by packetmon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You know, I love technology and all that it has done and is continuing to do, but I'm also starting to feel that technology is making a large portion of society very antisocial. When I was younger I used to enjoy going to the library, playing in the park etc., nowadays I see a huge portion of younger people skipping the libraries in favor of wikipedia or finding it online. Same goes for interaction, say dating... Why should someone head to a bar, coffeeshop, the laundrymat to meet someone when they could find it online. Alot of interaction has gone down the tubes and while it may be nice to think of an "e-classroom" of the future, I'd be pretty pissed if I couldn't clown around in person as opposed to faking smiles behind a screen. Screw that give me some dirty smelly kids, jokes, teachers throwing chalk at me versus a "digital classroom"

    1. Re:AntiSocial society by crgrace · · Score: 1

      I'm with you Packetmon. I got through a demanding program in Electrical Engineering in the 90s without owning a computer. I used the UNIX terminals in the engineering building for homework, and used the Mac lab to write my papers. Saved me a lot of money, and got me out of the dorm. Nowadays everyone has a personal laptop. I wonder if the students work alone more.

      Carl

    2. Re:AntiSocial society by MBCook · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree, which is something I find rather amusing considering the huge number of people using "social" networking sites, making "friends" on MySpace, etc.

      There is a lot to be said about a digital classroom at a certain point. It can be great in many college classes. I am highly against the "shove computers into higg/middle/elementary schools" movement. I've been in those schools, I know just how poorly they get used. Instead of something good the kids get "How to use Word" (not how to use a word processor). "How to type". "How to make a PowerPoint presentation". Some bits of this are useful (especially typing) but these are being taught not as means to an end, but the end its self.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    3. Re:AntiSocial society by pthor1231 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What were you doing being social in the library? I thought the whole point of them was to actually get away from distractions and be able to concentrate? In all seriousness though, just because someone isn't being social the exact same way you were doesn't necessarily make them anti social people. I honestly would never go to a laundromat to meet someone, partially because I never had the need to, but also because I just don't think thats a great way to meet someone I would have a lot in common with. So what if someone wants to have a get together of friends and play some games rather than going and tossing the disc in the park. Of course, you always have the people who take it to an extreme on either end. Don't let them be the base of your judgments.

    4. Re:AntiSocial society by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 4, Interesting

      On the same token, I'm glad for all this technology because I'm no longer forced to interact with other people unless I particularly want to. (And, incidentally, isn't it a little creepy, trying to meet people at the landromat?)

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    5. Re:AntiSocial society by kebes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually I see some technological trends in the opposite direction. Sites like Facebook enable people to be connected to each other more quickly and pervasively than ever before. Organizing events is easier. Photos from parties get posted and commented on within hours of the party ending! Keeping in touch with old friends is now so much easier than it used to be. I actually think that this increases socialization for many people. In particular, those on the "more awkward" end of the normal distribution (e.g. "geeks" and "nerds") now have an easier time of becoming socially connected (both online and offline). Sometimes it can actually be a bad thing, of course--people are spending time socializing online (and planning more offline social activities), which can disrupt other pursuits (e.g. learning!).

      With regard to the library... I've never thought of the library as a social-hub. In general, for every hour that is saved by using a more efficient online resource, instead of walking to the library, that's an hour that can be spent doing something else (e.g. learning something new or hanging out with friends).

      So, I'm not at all convinced that this technology is making people anti-social. For every anti-social anecdote I've seen, I've also seen instances where the technology is drawing people closer together, and helping forge friendships. Humans are social animals. Technology can't change that--if anything, it reinforces it.

    6. Re:AntiSocial society by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      By your own examples the technology isn't causing people to become antisocial. Its simply changing where the socialization happens. Those that are uncomfortable with change will of course have a wide range of reactions including mild discomfort and proclaiming all new technology to be the work of the devil.

      --
      Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
    7. Re:AntiSocial society by icebrain · · Score: 1

      I don't think the laptops cause any more isolation than there was before. A typical Georgia Tech computer lab is usually full of people zoned out on their own work (often with headphones on) or in small clusters of people. No real interation there, outside of the group work for projects and such.

      The laptops just make it easier to get to computing resources. Instead of all of us having to cram into a lab, fight over computers, and try to get seating next to each other, we could go anywhere (dorm, other building, off campus, etc.), and plug in the laptops. They also let you get more stuff done between classes because you don't have to waste time walking to/from your dorm or the library. And then you have the AE department, which kicks undergrads off the lab computers at 11pm and locks them out of the room until 7am the next day, apparently because they just aren't important.

      I know having the laptop was the single best investment I made in school. Yes, it's a distraction, but it's more than made up for when you can just whip it out and work on stuff for thirty mintues at a time, instead of having to wait till you go home for the day.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    8. Re:AntiSocial society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's socialphobia, not antisocial behavior. Please go back to class and learn the difference.

    9. Re:AntiSocial society by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 1

      Alot of interaction has gone down the tubes...

      I don't think you realized the alternative meaning there, but I found it amusing.

    10. Re:AntiSocial society by turtledawn · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't think it was creepy meeting someone at the laundromat. Presumably you're there at about the same time every week or every other week, so you're going to meet people that have about the same schedule you do (and wash at least some of their clothes THEMSELVES on a regular basis- which we ladies consider a serious bonus). After you've seen them for a couple of weeks running, they're not total strangers, and you're going to be stuck in the same room for about an hour anyway. You can start a conversation, see how it goes, and you've either made a contact or you know not to bother them next week.

      --
      Uh, "if it looks roughly mouse-shaped according to my infra-red sensitive pit, eat it"? --Chris Burke 09-08-10
    11. Re:AntiSocial society by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      I got my BS in mechanical engineering in 2004, and while a lot of people had laptops, if you weren't interacting with the other students, I can tell you that if you weren't learning as efficiently as those who were.

      While I could go home, load up matlab, and solve most of the problems myself, I found that it took considerably more time than if I headed to the computer lab found someone else working on the assignment, and worked on it with them. This wasn't because we split up the work, it was because everybody learned faster when bouncing ideas off each other. While I know that there were a few people who did well (and a lot who did poorly) doing all the work themselves, nothing beats 10 people around a study hall trying to hash out the subtleties of a thermodynamics problem. One person eventually says, "Ooh - I get it thats an adiabatic process" he shows the rest of the room, everyone gains some understanding and works the problem.

    12. Re:AntiSocial society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think to some degree, the "laptops for everybody!!" attitude is a bit misdirected. I went to a fairly wealthy high school, graduated in 2001. We had laptops available for us to use (in addition to several computer labs) in classes and things like that. But over the entire time I was there, we only used those laptops once, and that was the day the district administration came by to "observe" the teacher. The school simply has laptops to say that they have laptops... and that's a lot of money wasted. They spend all this money on students, but the students don't get any educational benefit out of it.

    13. Re:AntiSocial society by MemoryAid · · Score: 1

      I'm posting this from a library right now. (Using a personal laptop.)
      Oh, and 'antisocial' isn't the opposite of social, exactly. It refers to the desire to tear down society, not just drop out of it. I would like to suggest 'nonsocial' for that meaning.
      On an unrelated note, involving socializing, I just talked to a woman in this same library, who happens to have a laptop as well. The internet can be a great way to meet real people in the real world. As long as they don't have internet access at home.

      --
      Language students: Don't try to learn English here. This ain't it.
    14. Re:AntiSocial society by Jorgandar · · Score: 1

      Meh. disagree. You're assuming that everyone *wants* to be social. I'm NOT an extrovert. Maybe you are, but i'm not. Lets assume you are for the sake of argument. Because you're extroverted, you're assuming everyone is, or everyone should want to be. Lets face it, there's a huge taboo in (US) society against being introverted. Society has programmed you and me to believe there's something wrong with introverts. But the reality is its perfectly normal for people to have this trait and behave this way. There's a difference between being introverted and antisocial. I'm not going to go into the details, but I encourage you to figure out the difference because your sterotypes are what makes life more difficult for people like me.

      An introvert is social too - but picks his moments. He would much rather choose when to be social than have it shoved in his face every day. That said, technology inst making "a large part of society anti-social". It's simply allowing the introverts to behave in a way that is very natural for them.

    15. Re:AntiSocial society by mgblst · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, but that may simply be due to a certain bias on my part. The simple fact is that society is always changing, it was different in your day, and your parents, and your grand parents. It changes for the younger generation, who have no emotional ties to the past, and want a better way of doing things.

  7. Sure... digital is cool but... by TheEdge757 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I consider myself an early adopter and a person who's generally always interested in finding a competetive advantage, but one thing is for sure: when it comes to studying, I like to have something tactile in my hands. It's almost as though interacting with a paper medium is easier to deal with then a digital medium, and through that interaction I tend to learn more. It's why I've printed out all the Powerepoint slides to class and write on the slides in longhand rather then add notes on the actual slides themselves. I'm not sure if that's something that will eventuially change as people start becoming more exposed to computers at an early age, but I do believe that in my generation (college) people still generally prefer to have a non-digital medium for actual learning. I've rarely run into anyone who would rather read a digital textbook then have some sort of physical document/book in their hands.

    --
    Power is the ability to make a change.
    1. Re:Sure... digital is cool but... by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Informative

      There are plenty of studies that have been done to show that

      A) Certain people learn better in certain ways. http://www.vark-learn.com/english/index.asp

      B) The atmosphere you learn something in is the atmosphere you'll recall it best in. This means that if you study in a suit and reading a physical book, that's the way you'll remember it easiest. If you study in jeans and a shirt, and using a computer, that's the way you'll remember it easiest.

      A means that learning should either be tailored to the individual student, or use all methods of learning to reinforce the material.

      B means that if you are working on something that you'll use wearing a suit and on a PC, that's the atmosphere you should learn it in.

      BTW, I'm one of those that would rather a digital book, for pleasure reading or learning, either one. Just because you don't hear them say so, don't just assume they like physical books.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    2. Re:Sure... digital is cool but... by TheEdge757 · · Score: 1

      "There are plenty of studies that have been done to show that...." All valid points. I happen to be an auditory learner, so I guess none of this matters to me anyway :) I don't disagree with anything that you say, though I will clarify. My personal opinion is that most people would rather read a book in their hands then off a screen. Now, the people who read this post might come from a subset of the population who have a higher likelyhood of agreeing with you, but go talk to most people who aren't in the science fields and I think you'll find the opposite.

      --
      Power is the ability to make a change.
    3. Re:Sure... digital is cool but... by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      Do people that have never tried, or even had a chance to try, really count? We are talking about implementing this in education. If the child grows up with the chance/choice, and still prefers books, that's one thing. But if they've never had the chance, that's another.

      If you ask someone who's never had steak (but has had chicken) if they prefer chicken or steak, they have to answer 'chicken'. That doesn't mean they actually like it better, just that they have no information.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    4. Re:Sure... digital is cool but... by jollyreaper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but I do believe that in my generation (college) people still generally prefer to have a non-digital medium for actual learning. I've rarely run into anyone who would rather read a digital textbook then have some sort of physical document/book in their hands. It all boils down to what you're used to and what makes you feel comfortable. I love reading books on a palm device. I can curl up in bed and it's every bit as nice as having a physical book. I've been doing some computer certs and the books for the subject weigh about 50lbs in total and would never fit in my laptop bag but the books DO come with CD's, complete with pdf's! I can bring the whole kit and kaboodle to class and have it running on my laptop sitting right beside my workstation. Bright, legible screen, full text search functionality, I love it. I can also have ten different books open for cross-referencing. If I were using paper books like the rest of the class, I'd barely have enough room to keep one open.

      It's one of those things that boils down to the question of "what works for you?" The problem with modern education is that they often say "to hell with the individual; what's the most effective way of cranking the students through?" Lecture-style learning in large classes, pointless multiple choice exams, etc. If they decide that laptops and ebooks are more efficient, that's what they'll mandate. If they decide it has to be paper books, they'll mandate that instead. But it seems like there's no flexibility for any give and take, it's just whatever they decide to railroad through and fuck you if you see things differently.
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    5. Re:Sure... digital is cool but... by TheEdge757 · · Score: 1

      I'm talking about the people, like me, who have had digital learning force-fed to them. I started out with the physical texts in grade school. By the time I got to college, I began to get bombarded with "read these 300 pages online" and most of us just wanted to shoot ourselves in the face. Most of my generation has had both. Most of us choose a combination (physical augmented by digital) and I'm fairly happy with that. I understand that not all colleges are the same, but I think pretty much every student has had exposure to e-learning of some sort by now.

      --
      Power is the ability to make a change.
    6. Re:Sure... digital is cool but... by TheEdge757 · · Score: 1

      I completely agree. It mostly is just about the bottom line, and I do understand that everyone has a different learning style. I do think, that on a whole (and not intending to marginalize you), the people who are in college right now would rather read 100 pages on paper then 100 pages online (not news, but actually something that actually had to be learned). Beside that, I agree with you 100%.

      --
      Power is the ability to make a change.
    7. Re:Sure... digital is cool but... by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      Frankly, it's a lot easier to sit on the toilet with a book than to sit there with a laptop.

      I mean, we're talking about long-term power studying, no?

      --
      -Styopa
    8. Re:Sure... digital is cool but... by TheEdge757 · · Score: 1

      rofl... well said.

      --
      Power is the ability to make a change.
  8. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's not always true. I've seen a lot of professors who were able to capture the students' attention, and actually have them learn the material quite well, with only a blackboard and a piece of chalk. I've also seen a lot of professors with all this tricked out technology and completely fail at teaching, either by not getting the students interested, or completing failing at getting the point of the lecture across. So, while technology can help, especially if the professor understands it, I would say that the majority of professors who are bad, can't be helped by just throwing more technology at the problem. And professors who are already good, don't need high tech gadgets to teach.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  9. The real advantage IMO by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    See, technology does has its advantages. Let's talk learning here. To me, when I was in school, there were two types of lectures, two types of classes, two types of professors/teachers. I could usually tell right away which type a particular class would be, and that would set the stage for me and eventually my final grade.

    The two types:
    - Rote memorization
    - Conceptual learning

    Back before google was a verb I couldn't just 'google' my question and get the answer within seconds. It was advantageous to use some of my (maybe a lot of it) on simple rote memorization.

    But now, with so much information literally at my fingertips, I see no reason to fill as much of my memory up with the rote knowledge and facts. I feel that I am better served by learning the art of skepticism, philosophy, conceptualization, and the general techniques used to analyze, logically, the goings-on in my daily life.

    I think that in today's schools, if they choose to embrace technology in this way, you will see that in this sense this is advantageous over not having the technology at all.

    --
    I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    1. Re:The real advantage IMO by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 1

      These are very good points. In programming courses these days the teachers are saying that learning the language isn't as important as learning the concept, but then they teach it in a very language-oriented manner and often are unable to get the concept across clearly. So I think more and more people are realizing how important conceptual learning is, but they don't know how to teach beyond rote memorization.

      --
      Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
    2. Re:The real advantage IMO by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      But now, with so much information literally at my fingertips, I see no reason to fill as much of my memory up with the rote knowledge and facts. I feel that I am better served by learning the art of skepticism, philosophy, conceptualization, and the general techniques used to analyze, logically, the goings-on in my daily life.

      It would be marvelous given an inifinte amount of free time on your hands, but face it : most parts of human knowledge are now so complex that even the basics can take years to just grasp. You can't possibly discover again what's already been done all the way up, so you've got at least to learn about where the current knowledge has arrived. And this can only be done via rote learning.

      I too would be delighted to be able to simply crash into any science or art by just looking for answers, but I've exeperienced that you must learn how to "read the map" before being able to make a move. And learning that map is very time consumming, boring, and solely based on memorization.

    3. Re:The real advantage IMO by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

      This is true. Hence the italicized "as much" in my quote.

      You have defined the why of the "as much". I was too lazy, or maybe figured someone else would handle that ;p

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    4. Re:The real advantage IMO by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      Back before google was a verb I couldn't just 'google' my question and get the answer within seconds. It was advantageous to use some of my (maybe a lot of it) on simple rote memorization.

      But now, with so much information literally at my fingertips, I see no reason to fill as much of my memory up with the rote knowledge and facts. I feel that I am better served by learning the art of skepticism, philosophy, conceptualization, and the general techniques used to analyze, logically, the goings-on in my daily life.

      I think that in today's schools, if they choose to embrace technology in this way, you will see that in this sense this is advantageous over not having the technology at all. I completely agree with you. But there's so much inertia built up behind the old way of doing things... It's just easier to drill people on facts. Here, memorize a hundred facts. There, now I can test you on them. You got 90%, I look good. How do you quantify "skepticism, philosophy, conceptualization, and the general techniques used to analyze, logically, the goings-on in my daily life"? It would require an intensive one-on-one test with the instructor. It's not something that you could fit on a scantron. It's not happening. :(
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    5. Re:The real advantage IMO by lokiz · · Score: 1

      I think you have hit "the nail on the head" here. To this day I actually remember things from the classes where we learned concepts and how to do things instead of "memorize this and regurgitate for the exam". I had a professor in college who was fantastic. He taught the hardest comp sci classes. And all his exams were open book, open notes. Students still would sweat at the thought of his exams, but that was because of the subject matter (compilers anyone?). Bottom line to pass his test you had to know how to do the stuff. Sure you had all the answers at your fingers with books and notes. But if you didn't know where to look, and what you were doing you'd never pass. This was by far the best preparation for the real world I had. Ability to look up anything, but if you don't have some clue of what your doing you'll never finish as fast as you need to.

    6. Re:The real advantage IMO by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      Just something else I should have written in my answer. You're posing as the perfect student, which is true I hope ;-)
      But as a lecturer, I know that statistically, students want badly rote memorization. Because they know there's going to be a test at the end of the semester, and all of a sudden, when the time comes, they realize that being tested on their critical abilities is more dangerous than memory. Memory is a muscle, anybody can train to have an adequate one. But critical thinking is MUCH more difficult to achieve, and they realize they'd rather let me do the job first hand. That's how I'm always feeling in the process of potty training talking parrots most of the time (and even, I realize ALEX certainly had more gusto for thinking than the majority of my students).

    7. Re:The real advantage IMO by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

      Well, inasmuch that critical thinking is a process, so must the steps used to perform that process be memorized. In other words, you need both types (from what I said in my original post) of learning. What I think technology has done is allow us more leeway to properly balance the two types.

      Now I'm just an armchair philosopher. There are probably quite a few more 'types' of learning and schooling. To break it all down into those two is probably not fair or adequate. As usual, my agenda was only to make a point. Sometimes that's at the cost of the greater picture, sometimes it helps others see a part of that picture they maybe hadn't seen.

      Here on Slashdot the best comments are both insightful and informative (ok, and funny). Unfortunately, mine are usually less of the latter than the former, and often not much of the former anyway. When I do get modded up it is largely due to the fact that I merely pointed out what others were already thinking, saving them the time of typing it themselves. But this begs the question: If enough other people were thinking the same thing and modded the comment insightful, then how insightful could it really have been?

      I know I am way, way off topic here. Maybe I'll get modded -1 OT. That would be a nice change of pace :)

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    8. Re:The real advantage IMO by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately most teachers use technology like Powerpoint presentations to increase the amount of rote memorization they can pound through in a given class. The ones who are trying to get you to think or to teach you concepts tend to talk to you instead.

      It doesn't HAVE to be that way, but it seems to happen more often than not.

    9. Re:The real advantage IMO by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

      I suspect that that sort of personalized schooling is possible for the wealthy.

      For the rest, we'll just have to wait for true Artificial Intelligence. It might be a while.

      Imagine that, a professor who literally IS a walking encyclopedia. /orbit

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    10. Re:The real advantage IMO by jollyreaper · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I suspect that that sort of personalized schooling is possible for the wealthy.

      For the rest, we'll just have to wait for true Artificial Intelligence. It might be a while.

      Imagine that, a professor who literally IS a walking encyclopedia. /orbit I was always blown away when reading about the biographies of the smarty smarts from history. You didn't typically get contributions to philosophy and the sciences from the poor because they didn't have the free time for any kind of productive recreational pursuits. They were lucky to have an hour for some beer before passing out before the next 12 hour workday. But these kids of the wealthy, they had the best minds of the day hired as tutors. You look at their accomplishments and think "Holy shit, they were geniuses beyond compare!" And then you look at the modern education system and think "hold on there, they were bright but just look at how inefficient our own education system is. Imagine if the kinds of resources thrown at the rich kids were thrown at one of the bright poor kids in class. Just imagine where he could be!"

      I wouldn't necessarily say that AI would have to be involved, we'd just have to seriously reconsider the way we structure learning in our society. The farmer's son learns at his side in the field. The cobbler's son learns at his side in the workshop. But with the industrial revolution, there was no time for taking kids to work along with dad -- maybe set them to work changing bobbins and losing fingers but that's it. For middle class jobs, junior isn't going to be working with his dad at the bank. But imagine if he were. I was taught math and reading at home before we ever encountered it in school. My dad was a mechanic by trade and it would have been quite interesting if I were able to work alongside him for part of the year, see how things are done. I have no aptitude for mechanics but it would have still been an interesting experience. Imagine if a very bright kid could be paired with a suitable mentor and take half his lessons that way. Yes, I know there were some drawbacks to apprenticeships historically but you can say the same thing about our compulsory education system, a mixed bag.
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    11. Re:The real advantage IMO by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      ". You didn't typically get contributions to philosophy and the sciences from the poor because they didn't have the free time for any kind of productive recreational pursuits. They were lucky to have an hour for some beer before passing out before the next 12 hour workday. But these kids of the wealthy, they had the best minds of the day hired as tutors. You look at their accomplishments and think "Holy shit, they were geniuses beyond compare!""
      I think you should read some more.
      What about Edison? He wasn't from the upper class.
      I think you will find that for the most part the upper class really contributed very little. What we would consider the middle class tended to be the ones that contributed the most to science, engineering, and just about every other pursuit. The upper classes tend to contribute very little but capital. Nope the children of the rich seem to be for the most part a huge waste of resources. They tend have no real motivation to do anything. As Andrew Carnegie was right, inherited wealth is a curse not a blessing.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    12. Re:The real advantage IMO by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      I think you should read some more.
      What about Edison? He wasn't from the upper class.
      I think you will find that for the most part the upper class really contributed very little. What we would consider the middle class tended to be the ones that contributed the most to science, engineering, and just about every other pursuit. The upper classes tend to contribute very little but capital. Nope the children of the rich seem to be for the most part a huge waste of resources. They tend have no real motivation to do anything. As Andrew Carnegie was right, inherited wealth is a curse not a blessing. I wasn't going to issue all the qualifying statements and make that post any longer but ok, fine, I will. You've probably got 100k George W's for every philosopher-noble. The waning days of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance saw the rise of merchant fortunes that rivaled those of the nobility and saw men of low means gain great wealth. Likewise, the Industrial Revolution raised clever men high on the strength of their invention.

      I'm no republican supporter of inheritance, I'm just saying it's damn hard to contribute much of value to the arts or science when you're worked half to death. The people I'm talking about were the ones who were able to put their greatest efforts into achievements of learning and scholarship, not worrying about bringing in the harvest. The wealth of their parents allowed for an education that was the best money could buy versus what we see in public education, the most mediocre compromise to be arrived at with the meager resources available.
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    13. Re:The real advantage IMO by BarlowBrad · · Score: 1

      At my school I found that the best teachers used class time to teach students how to interact with the information from required reading and with each other. Rote memorization was done (for the most part) on our own time, usually from books, because after the time spent in class we could determine what was most important and then study that for use in the future.

  10. Similar to... by kebes · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Note that this story is somewhat similar to a previous Slashdot item on "When 'Digital Natives' Go to the Library" (complete with the 'Digital Native' buzz-word that I have not seen used on other sites).

    This quote included in TFA is, I think, the best way to look at integrating new technologies with teaching:

    Good teachers are good with or without IT and students learn a great deal from them. Poor teachers are poor with or without IT and students learn little from them.
    It's a truism that's pretty obvious, but bears repeating. In my opinion, technology can only enhance the teaching/learning experience, since good teachers will have the wisdom to deploy it carefully. Less skilled teachers will deploy it poorly (e.g. using it as a gimmick instead of an useful tool), but then again those are precisely the teachers that would be wasting student's time with other tools (chalkboards, textbooks, etc.).

    This is not to say that there have not been "growing pains" with integrating technology into teaching. Certainly I've seen otherwise competent professors make mistakes with over-zealously deploying an immature teaching tool. But, overall, I think the unsurprising conclusion is that all these new technologies provide advantages to those who are smart enough to exploit them properly.

    My general view is that rather than try to integrate specific technologies (which then become gimmick-like), it's best to simply make generic resources available to students and teachers (e.g. computer labs, Wi-Fi, laptop loaner programs, site-wide software licenses, etc.). When resources are available, students will inherently gravitate towards using them in the most useful ways. For example, rather than explicitly integrating a particular piece of tech into a course (a particular software package, forcing students to use an online message board, etc.), my inclination would be to make a bunch of avenues for learning available, and see which ones the students inherently use.
  11. Less than half ever take laptops to class by wal9001 · · Score: 1

    Is it some kind of surprise that most people don't bring laptops to lectures? Text notes are easy to take, but god forbid your professor draws a diagram and you don't have a tablet. Also, considering how much willpower it takes me to sit at my computer for an hour without firing up Tetris, I can see that it might have a bad influence on my grades. If it's not going to help me learn more I see no reason to have it with me.

  12. Looks more like entertainment by Overzeetop · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was in the first class of engineers which my school required to have a computer. That was 20 years ago. I now live in that college town, and have occasional interaction with the engineering department and its students. (No, that's not what I meant - get your mind out of the gutter). They use computers for the same things I did - CAD, spreadsheets, term papers. They get more out of them through the internet as many professors put assignments, notes and samples on line. We didn't play too many games because there weren't many immersive ones, and we didn't surf because the internet did not exist then as it exists now. The web had not yet been created (by web, I mean HTML and browsers). We didn't chat, unless you count BBSs - which I don't. We didn't download music or videos - most PCs didn't have sound cards, video wasn't really possible on an 8086, and p0rn, even if it existed was not really a hot item at 320x240 (in a stunning 256 colors).

    It seems that most of the progress has been in added functionality (as in more built-in functions - 3D solid cad, more rows/cols) and speed of processing. Everything else seems to be more about entertainment, whether its games, connectivity, or casual information (surfing). Students can amass more crap via downloads, but if you never print it out or look at it on the screen page-by-page it's just as bad as a Kinkos-printed set of notes where you watch the comb spine slowly yellow over the years. Actually, I suppose its worse - without that yellow spine in the bookcase to remind you that you have it, you don't even remember that lecture note set exists, buried in some sub-folder in you document directory.

    IMHO very little has changed in 20 years on the teaching front. The critical component to education in the interactive ability of the teacher and student to work together. Web-enabled learning still tens to fall short, imho, and expanding class attendance through distance learning just reduces the opportunity to get everyone involved in the learning process.

    Wait...I take part of that back - email does make a difference. Quick questions can be answered efficiently in an asynchronous manner that wasn't possible in my day (yes, we had voicemail, but couldn't copy the whole class). Still, it doesn't really scream "new teaching methods are necessary," unless new teaching methods involves putting web blocking software in the routers to keep the kids from surfing in a boring lecture.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Looks more like entertainment by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      320x240 (in a stunning 256 colors)

      Basic high-colour VGA was 320x200 at 256 colours from a 16.7million colour choice. The 320x240 mode existed, but it was known as Mode-X and was hard to implement and required some hacks. So, our pr0n back in the day was 320x200 @ 8-bit... That said, I played 4 bit EGA strip poker... I'm pretty sure there was 2 bit CGA pr0n and monochrome pr0n. After all, there was even ASCII pr0n. Seen on the IBM mainframes at my dads work, but then that was probably EBCDIC pr0n ;-)

    2. Re:Looks more like entertainment by SpeedyBandito · · Score: 1

      I now live in that college town, and have occasional interaction with the engineering department and its students. (No, that's not what I meant - get your mind out of the gutter). Oh yeah baby, don't stop "interacting" with my "engineering department". Oooh, and don't forget the "students"!
    3. Re:Looks more like entertainment by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Busted. It's been a long time since I've thought much about that PS/2.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  13. Yeah by everphilski · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The only subject I have trouble seeing easily transferable to an electronic form without some form of tablet would be math and engineering subjects which require extensive equations. There is no good standard equation editor that can create and manipulate formulas nearly as fast as can be done by hand afaik. (Although LaTeX equations do look a whole lot better than by hand once you get all the symbols in the right place.)

    As an engineer I stuck to desktop computers, took notes on paper, until this year. I have a Ph.D., and my comittee consists of a colleague at work, my advisor at school, and me doing work at both work and school and home. So I broke down and I use it for research, but I still take paper notes. You just can't effectively do a free body diagram on a notebook...

    1. Re:Yeah by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      What about a Tablet PC? I'll bet you could use one in a normal laptop style, and then draw out the diagrams on the screen as needed...

    2. Re:Yeah by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      You just can't effectively do a free body diagram on a notebook...

      That's literally exactly why I got a Tablet PC (I'm a civil engineering student). It works about as well as paper, but would be a lot better if some purpose-built software existed (imagine drawing a free body and having the software straighten out your lines, or even analyze and draw the deformed shape for you!).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    3. Re:Yeah by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      GD and matlab for teh win!

      I convinced one of my teachers to wear a mic and train my speech software, in exchange I gave him paper copies of all his lectures.
      Also, in the same class a few of my mates and I made a morse code buzzer where the key was in the toe of a shoe and the buzzer was a (heavily) modified pager on vibrate. The collision detection was by human brain, but it worked very very well. We showed our prof (no one in my group needed to cheat to ace the class anyway) and he though it was so creative that we all got a full grade's worth of bonus.
      Found out later that the prof had previously shown a proof of concept roulette cheater that worked in a similar principle. pick an arbitrary point on the rim of the wheel, and tap your left toe every time the ball went round and your right foot every time 0 went round the other way. computer could predict with ~60% accuracy whether the result would be red or black.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    4. Re:Yeah by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      What is "GD?"

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:Yeah by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      PERL image manipulation library.
      ImageMagik would be another alternative perhaps?
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    6. Re:Yeah by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Wait a second, I think I just understood what you're saying. Are you trying to claim that MATLAB and an imaging library is equivalent to the stylus-driven CAD/analysis software I was proposing? I sure hope not, because that's not even slightly what I meant.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    7. Re:Yeah by everphilski · · Score: 1

      I played with one for a week. My mom got my dad a convertable notebook/tablet for Christmas two years ago and had me play with it for a week before hand (to get rid of the crapware, set up useful software, firewall, printers, etc.) Microsoft OneNote was pretty slick but it didn't really work for me.

      Part of it might be the fact that - as a grad student, and now a Ph.D. student - I'm selectively taking classes that are relevant to my day job. So I put my notes and related articles, homework and projects into binders and they sit on the shelf here at work where I can reference them easily. I know I could do it on the computer but its nice to be able to snag a binder and run to a coworkers cube to discuss something, and I don't see the point of writing it on the computer, then printing.

      Maybe when e-paper is more ubiquitious (and a lot cheaper) we will see it replace engineering pads or something :)

    8. Re:Yeah by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      Equivalent, no. Usable to straighten freehand drawings and perform basic computation in a classroom note taking capacity, sure.

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    9. Re:Yeah by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Really? How would one go about using GD or ImageMagick (or anything else, for that matter) to straighten freehand drawings quickly enough to keep up with the teacher when taking notes in class?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  14. Nothing to see, move along... by GoatRavisher · · Score: 1

    And I quote, "IT is not a good substitute for good teaching. Good teachers are good with or without IT and students learn a great deal from them. Poor teachers are poor with or without IT and students learn little from them."
    I wonder what kind of ROI universities get out on their IT projects. I visit a lot of universities and I regularly encounter empty computer labs, students ignoring lectures while listening to iPods, texting on mobile phones, and/or playing games on their laptop; lecture times cut short by the professor's lack of understanding of the basic operation of poorly implemented presentation technology.

    --
    Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
  15. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by everphilski · · Score: 1

    Chalk and blackboard? Pfft. My MAE623 professor uses **transparencies** :P (despite the fact that each room is equipped with an LCD projector, and there are several rooms equipped with digital blackboards ... he is old school and uses the overhead projector)

  16. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I prefer a lecture with chalk over a ramble with PowerPoint slides any day. Unfortunately, teaching with PowerPoint seems to be hip these days - which might not be so bad in itself, but it is when they don't know how to use it correctly. Quickly rushing over a few slides with equations written all over it does not help. Watching someone slowly write out each step on a chalkboard, and explain why they did it along the way, does wonders for your understanding.

  17. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

    I had a teacher who put a box outside the classroom with a sign that basically said "Put tamagoshi or gameboy here during the class, any tamagoshi or gameboy found inside the classroom will be hammered", of course, I was 7 then and no one had cellphone or PDA at that time.

  18. News? by NeoTerra · · Score: 1
    I'm not quite sure how this is a surprising result of study. Just about anyone that spends a fair amount of time at a college would be able to tell you this. I do agree with the article on one important matter:

    The epigraph to the report's sixth chapter, from a student's written comments, goes a long way toward summarizing what the authors say is the place of technology in the college setting today: "IT is not a good substitute for good teaching. Good teachers are good with or without IT and students learn a great deal from them. Poor teachers are poor with or without IT and students learn little from them."
    The rest of the article just seems to be obvious conclusions that doesn't require much study of anything.
  19. Technology & history by carandol · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm a mature student doing an undergraduate history degree at a UK university, and the lecturers say that historical research has been completely revolutionised in the last five years by the internet. As an example, take Early English Books Online (EEBO), which has scans and transcriptions of every book published in English between the invention of the printing press 1750. Instead of having to travel to obscure academic libraries to find rare books (or manage without them), I can read all the source material I need for my dissertation from home via a VPN connection to my university. With a tool like Zotero for Firefox I can download the books to my laptop and make notes all over them -- try doing that with a 17th century manuscript :-)

    1. Re:Technology & history by pintpusher · · Score: 1

      That's great example, but I have to note what is probably the key point in your comment -- "mature". I am embarking on a path to become a "mature" undergrad as well (I'm 37) and I'm excited to get to it. But when I was a younger undergrad (18-19 and again at 23) I just didn't have the focus, will, and self-discipline to stay engaged in my classes. I don't think I could have handled the major distractions that come with today's IT infrastructure. I would surely have washed out even quicker than I did.

      So there are really two side to the issue. On the one side, there are great technologies such as what you've mentioned, collaborative technologies for writers and researchers, ready availability of computational and compilers and languages for math and CS majors and so forth -- all really great applications of technology in education.
      On the other, you have kids playing games or IM'ing their buddies while in the back of a lecture hall. Or worse, working on their CS code while sitting in the back of an english lecture ;).

      --
      man, I feel like mold.
    2. Re:Technology & history by carandol · · Score: 1

      I think we have a lot less students taking laptops into lectures here than in the US -- possibly because hardware's more expensive here, so less students have laptops, and those who *do* have them in lectures are seen as showing off rather than being practical. But I do find it a bit worrying when I get email from other students; they all seem to write as though they're texting, and obviously don't consider spelling and punctuation a necessary part of communication. Maybe it isn't, since I can understand their emails, so maybe I'm just an old fogey, but I do hope their English is better when writing essays!

    3. Re:Technology & history by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      I can read all the source material I need for my dissertation from home via a VPN connection to my university.
      Equally, a student could just use google (or one of those essay-for-hire sites) and crib what someone else has written about them. I'm not implying that you would, of course.
      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    4. Re:Technology & history by carandol · · Score: 1

      Equally, a student could just use google (or one of those essay-for-hire sites) and crib what someone else has written about them. I'm not implying that you would, of course. Our university has recently started using plagiarism-detecting software(!), and sometimes asks us to hand in essays in electronic form for testing. And at least some of our seminar tutors are very sharp at spotting if students have actually done the set reading or just looked the subject up on Wikipedia.
    5. Re:Technology & history by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      There was a big debate about that a few months back, claiming it infringed the students' copyrights and all.

      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
  20. UK students by Wowsers · · Score: 1

    UK students today, if they can use MS-Word and can use a web browser, they can use a computer to an expert level. And there in lies the problem.

    We have little teaching of actual programming and use of a computer (setting up a simple network, installing and configure software), just how to use a word processor. Although, the state of dumbed down education today, you'd half expect exams in how to send a SMS (text) message on a mobile phone, or how to get the top score in Tetris on a phone.

    --
    Take Nobody's Word For It.
    1. Re:UK students by Orkie · · Score: 1

      Surely you can't really believe education is dumbed down? Maybe for the 'media science' (as some universities now call it) students but not for those who take more traditional, worthwhile subjects.

    2. Re:UK students by Wowsers · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I do believe education is being dumbed down for traditional HARD subjects... for full article read the URL, but there's a bit of it:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6038638.stm/

      The new GCSE science curriculum has been branded "sound bite science" which takes a back-to-front approach.

      Sir Richard Sykes, rector of Imperial College London, is among the scientists to attack the core qualification, in which pupils discuss topical issues.

      He warned a "dumbed down syllabus" may stop those who did not study chemistry, physics and biology individually from getting into good universities.

      The Department for Education said the new GCSEs did involve academic rigour.

      In recent years most pupils have studied a "combined science" double GCSE, rather than separate science subjects which are largely confined to grammar and independent schools.

      But from this September, most are taking a GCSE in "scientific literacy for the 21st Century" - covering issues including global warming and mobile phone technology.

      The expectation is they will also do an Additional Science GCSE - either "general", with a more factual basis, or "applied", with a more practical focus.

      Science is going to be relegated to the position of Latin and Greek and will only be taught in the independent schools Baroness Mary Warnock.

      However, Sir Richard told BBC News: "If you wish to have a dumbed-down syllabus for the general population that's fine. But for those who really want to go on and study a subject in depth, and particularly go to a good university like Imperial, then they'll never get there unless they study the individual subjects and take A-levels in these individual subjects."

      He believes the new GCSEs will make it harder for pupils from state schools to study science at top universities as science departments prefer more traditional courses.

      Or for dire situation on modern languages:
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/23/ngcse123.xml/
      --
      Take Nobody's Word For It.
    3. Re:UK students by Wowsers · · Score: 1

      Oops, remove last '/' from the end of the URL's if you visit them to make the URL's work.

      --
      Take Nobody's Word For It.
    4. Re:UK students by Orkie · · Score: 1

      Ah, you may be right about science - I didn't do that syllabus (so don't know a huge amount about it) but I do know one of the exams is multiple choice and many people get 100% in it. Lots of schools are switching to it for the very reason that it produces good results. The 'combined science' was purely combined in the qualification, nearly all schools treated physics, chemistry and biology as separate subjects regardless. Parts of that report seems a bit strange - mobile phone technology has been on the syllabus for a long time in the form of the EM spectrum (what else to they expect to teach people who aren't all that bright).

      I disagree with the idea that French is being made too easy however. I did GCSE French 2 years ago (yes, I'm a young whipper snapper) and while you can use a writing frame to some extent (though it isn't as much as the Telegraph article makes out), you are severely limited as to what grades you could get in doing so (I think it was a maximum of a D, which is basically worthless anyway and will clearly be dragged down even further in the other exams if the candidate needs to use a writing frame for one of the easiest parts of the qualification). To get an A or A*, you genuinely do need to do a lot of extra work, it can't be spoon-fed to you.

      Every year there are stories on the media about exams getting easier - don't believe it all. Some of it may be true, but as with most things, the newspapers like to only describe a relatively small part of a large, complicated topic and make that sample out to be representative of the whole thing, depending on what their biases are.

    5. Re:UK students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's rather interesting. At my University in the US, we have quite the opposite problem. A recently built pharmacy school is bringing in significant numbers of pre-pharm students, most of which wind up as Biology or Chemistry majors when they aren't accepted at the pharmacy school. The p-chem course this year has double the regular enrollment. Lower levels courses, especially those shared by chem/bio/pre-pharm, are literally exhausting available lab space.

  21. More hurt than good, really. by eepok · · Score: 1

    It's hard to say no to a new tech grant because new computers and the possibility of a "laptop for every child" can look so good in the Sunday paper, but the truth of the matter is that high technology (like PDAs, cellphones, computers, even graphing calculators at times) are so much more distracting than helpful that I, working in education AND being such a techy have to be the lone educated person in the room saying thing like, "No, it will only hurt the kids! Just upgrade the office computers and pay for computer/program/database training for the staff!"

    That said, the only "infiltration" is the exploitation of the technology so as to make goofing off that much easier and that much less detectable.

    I always get weird looks like, "What in the world do you know?" and I always have to reexplain that the kids know computers better than the administration would ever like to know and will find ways to communicate when they shouldn't or play/make games would they should be working.

    At BEST, I'd like to see a completely crippled tablet mini-pc that exists solely for taking notes and uploading those notes to personal webspace. There is so little that tech has to offer the student and so much harm to do to the class.

    Now, if you don't mind, I have to get back to writing a grant proposal for new flat screen televisions in the class room. /sigh

  22. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 1

    That's not always true. I've seen a lot of professors who were able to capture the students' attention, and actually have them learn the material quite well, with only a blackboard and a piece of chalk. I find it largely depends on the course. I find maths must be written by hand as the layout of the formula and notes on the page can be just as important as the information itself and trying to replicate this on a standard computer is simply too time consuming. But anything else I find tedious to do by hand.

    I've also seen a lot of professors with all this tricked out technology and completely fail at teaching, either by not getting the students interested, or completing failing at getting the point of the lecture across. So, while technology can help, especially if the professor understands it, I would say that the majority of professors who are bad, can't be helped by just throwing more technology at the problem. And professors who are already good, don't need high tech gadgets to teach. You're right, no amount of technology can make a bad teacher good, but it can make a good teacher better. Never think that someone is so good at something that they don't need to improve. Otherwise that person will find they do in fact become worse as those around them improve and eventually exceed them.
    --
    Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
  23. mixed feelings by Anne+Honime · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Having spent a lot of time in the education system, both in front and behind the desk, I have mixed feelings about all this IT craze. When I was a pupil back in the 80's, I had to brew my own text processor (cp/m computer, wordprocessor still to be invented...). Wonderful experience, I typed back home my (terrible) handwritten notes. I still don't think it helped me a bit learning my lessons, but it taught me about computers when it was still quite new and shinny. Coolness factor at the time, about zero. Being a nerd wasn't hype then.

    Reel forward : 20 years later, I'm teaching criminal law. Still a nerd, but mainly as a hobbyist. Still produce most of my work on computers, likes wikipedia (but know it's not a source of scholarly value), use fluently most parts of internet. Students in front of me are wired as much as they can lift. After letting them do as they please (we're at university, they should be grown up, FFS), I have to step in and forbid recording devices in my class room, read the riot act (throwing the lowest possible marks as if shot in burst with a M16) at those stupid enough to forget I too can google parts of their dissertation to find the true author, etc. Now, I don't even provide a powerpoint during the course, they f*ckin' have to listen to me and write things down with a pencil. If they don't like that, my door is always open and works both ways.

    Finally, my feeling is IT is very good for homework, library work, and anything research-related. But it's the worst ennemy of the student willing to truly learn. I know many will swear that it's helping them, but that's self delusion. I too had a friend before internet who used to swear sticking colored stars next to chapters heads was helping him. It failed. he should have read the actual contents instead of fuzzing around. So have done successful students for past centuries, so will they for centuries to come.

    Nothing replace hard personnal work. But there is still a place for IT : it's a considerable step forward for anonymity of dissertations, and it avoids students having low marks for the sole reason the teacher can't decipher them because they have a bad writing.

    1. Re:mixed feelings by qdaku · · Score: 1

      My favorite professors at university eschewed the use of most technology besides using powerpoint as a glorified slide projector --which was a bonus over the one guy who DID use a slide projector. He was 93 though and taught an amazing class in air photo analysis though, so I can't really blame him for being old fashioned.
      The other professors class was typically 25-30 slides of case history images. No words. You wrote like a madman and annotated photos with a zillion arrows. Proper notes were made off those later at home to make them legible down the road. I don't think I got as much out of any other class as that one. I run into him at conferences all the time and always thank him.
      Note-taking is a giant skill that seems to be disappearing. I've recently gotten into bits of teaching and I'm shocked at the note-taking and memory skills of the average 2nd year university student.
      All you need is a pad of a paper (graph paper is nice) and at least 1 pen. If you have more than one color it's a bonus, but not a necessity.

    2. Re:mixed feelings by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      When I was a pupil back in the 80's, I had to brew my own text processor (cp/m computer, wordprocessor still to be invented...).
      Ummm Wordstar which was the wordprocessor for cp/m hit 1.0 in 1978.
      I was high school student in the 80s and wrote some of my papers on WordPro on my C64 in 1983.
      You may have created your own but not because they where not available.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:mixed feelings by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      Ummm Wordstar which was the wordprocessor for cp/m hit 1.0 in 1978.

      That's true for 8080 and 8086 versions of CP/M, not for the CP/M 68K I was using. It would have needed a rewrite in C to work. Factor this plus the fact that I was in high school (as in living on parental grant) and that I needed a french version (with pesky letters like é à ç ê ...), you insensitive lucky boy.

      Just by digging google, I found this, and as it seems, at the time I was really out of luck. Alright, my words were a bit exagerated, but I vividly remember feeling really compelled to write the bloody thing myself.

      There was indeed the first french wordprocessor out, called textor if memory serves, but I don't think it was ported to my machine, and basicaly I was stuck with ED, the perfect editor, before I took matters into my own, 12 yo hands. I can't claim it was a world class success, but man, was I proud when my first pages got out of the printer !

    4. Re:mixed feelings by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Well you where very lucky to have a 68k back then. CP/M 68k was a rare beast.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:mixed feelings by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      Well you where very lucky to have a 68k back then. CP/M 68k was a rare beast.

      Thank to a storm, a lightning stroke the building where my father had his accountancy office. This created a power surge that melt down every appliances connected to the mains. But my soon-to-be-own computer had a magical device built into its PSU : a fuse. The insurance covered everything, my father told me I could peek a look at what might be put back in working order and keep it. I changed the melted fuse and the computer was (still is by the way) mine.

      Since then I never bought a new computer for myself. I look for them in trashes or dumpsters and bring them back to life again. I prefer by a long shot heavy duty machines, dilapidated shop workhorses and everything where iron and unix has a part to play over fancy multimedia centers and "playstations". As this uncommon occupation gave me some local popularity, I'm sometime given old computers before they're send to china for recycling. Got an alpha this way. I bought a couple of Sun (sparc and ultra) 2nd hand, though. Couldn't resist the urge.

    6. Re:mixed feelings by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      I have become fond of IBMs. They just always seemed to be better built than most other makes IMHO. Yea doing more with less is always a source of pride IMHO.
      Too bad that 68k didn't have Xeinx on it :)

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    7. Re:mixed feelings by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

      Got a complete classic lineup of those, from 8088 XT to pentium 166, through AT, 286, 386 PS/2, 486 tower server, a couple of thinkpads, etc.

      All extremely well built in my opinion, perhaps the PS/2s are a bit more frail, but the AT, oh, the AT... Case made with leftover of Abrhams M1 armor plates, disk platters moving the desk while spinning up...

  24. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by Lord_Frederick · · Score: 1

    The best use of technology I've been a part of was a college algebra teacher using the camera and projector to display problems as she worked them on her notepad. She used different colored markers and everything was faster because she wasn't spending time writing three-inch numbers on a whiteboard or constantly erasing.

    Now look at my calculus instructor that tries to use a combination of whiteboard, computer's TI-83 emulator and online resources. It all feels disjointed and awkward, especially when he's constantly walking back and forth to turn the room light on and off.

    One uses the technology that assists in teaching, the other seems like he's using technology for technology's sake.

  25. Building relevant categories ... by foobsr · · Score: 1

    From TFA: "...What they're doing when they're online is also changing somewhat, with the rise of Facebook and other social networking sites as the clearest trend this year (to 80.3 percent from 72.3 percent in 2006), along with streaming video and course management software, which 46.1 percent of respondents said they use several times a week or more (compared with 39.6 percent in 2006). ..."

    ... meanwhile, they probably do not learn to properly cluster only similar entities into umbrella categories.

    CC.

    --
    TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
  26. What a superb article by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm so glad that my eyes 'evolved' since my birth to allow me to read it on an LCD screen rather than the primitive CRT screens that my parents 'evolved' with. I guess my DNA got mangled about the same time that my fingers 'evolved' the ability to press little square buttons in order to produce this post.

    In other news, I'm still awaiting the mutation that will allow me to 'evolve' the ability to let pop science jargon slip by unchallenged. I pray to God every day that to reach in with with His Noodly Appendage and screw with my chromosomes.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:What a superb article by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

      I know it's fairly early in the game and all, for the information age and how it affects learning, living, evolution, etc..

      But I think of it like this:

      Which countries are advancing the quickest and have the strongest economies? Which countries have the highest quality of living?

      I think if you made that list, you'd see they were all countries on the leading edges of technology. It's correlation, not causation, but it's something to think about.

      Evolution can be more than just our DNA changing. Our technology is an extension of ourselves. I'd say it evolves. Quite fast, actually. Anyway, evolution is not just genetic.

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    2. Re:What a superb article by Your.Master · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because Evolution with a capital E often refers to the modern theory descended from Darwin's theory of natural selection and descent through modification, doesn't mean that evolution stopped being a perfectly legitimate term in unrelated scientific and lay contexts.

      There's nothing wrong here except for the fact that the article uses scare quotes around "evolution" where they are really unnecessary.

    3. Re:What a superb article by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Consise Counterpoint: yes it is.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  27. why so few "mass media" professors? by peter303 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The idea is fairly old - Thomas Edison the inventor of the phonograph and co-inventor of movie films proposed commercializing education by recording the most charismatic teachers and showing them at schools. This supposedly would solve two cost problems: first you stimulate students with the best teachers; second you reduce the number of [expensive] teachers by replicating their presententions. EVERY TIME a new form of media was invented since Edison someone has proposed the same arguments for commercializing education- to this day, now with Internet text messaging and videos. To a small degree the InterNet has facilitated grade-school charter school and college-trade schools. It cuts the cost of classrooms, but not the labor costs of interactive teachers. There must be something fundamental about the interative give-and-take of teachers and students thats resisted change int the 2500 years since Plato's Academy.

    1. Re:why so few "mass media" professors? by Overzeetop · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course this won't happen. You mentioned that teaching is an interactive process, but you forgot to add that the TIAA would require a payment of nearly the cost of a typical teacher to replay the recordings. Technology is about opportunity to increase revenue through efficiency, not about increasing efficiency for its own sake.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:why so few "mass media" professors? by oliphaunt · · Score: 1

      Please see Bar/Bri. Maybe there isn't enough demand in undergraduate education, because there are so many schools available- but in professional schools, there is certainly a market for charismatic profs to lead review seminars, especially for licensing exams.

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
  28. Who says you evolve with technology? by jollyreaper · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can point to several religious websites that will refute that very notion. I'm not sure if I find it ironic, tragic, or maddening that religionists will use the latest in multimedia technology, the product of the scientific method and research, to spread their anti-intellectual and anti-science message. And they would certainly take great umbrage at the use of the word "evolution" to describe the changes in their evangelism strategy. We're talking about using satellite and internet communications to promulgate the tribal superstitions of poor, ignorant goat-herders. Ugh! If we were still listening to you guys, you wouldn't have satellites and TV! You wouldn't even have PA systems!

    Oh, well. At least the Muslims have been known to use the technology to party. I've heard of sucka MC's but never mullah MC's.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  29. Paper and pencils by psychicsword · · Score: 1

    As a college student I have to say what the hell are these paper and pencils I keep hearing about. Is it supposed to be a form of laptop replacement?

  30. I post this from a laptop in a lecture. by Diordna · · Score: 1

    I'm currently sitting in a big lecture hall. Average physics (mechanics) class. Case Western Reserve University.

    There's a giant chalkboard in the front which the professor is writing on. There's a little desk off to the side that can send video to a projector. I think I learn the material better when he writes on the board, but sometimes a video demonstration is more convenient than trying to set up a complex demo (ie looking at a sequence of timed photos). He also provides the notes online, as well as all handouts. This is mostly to save paper, but it's still more convenient than paper, and even more accessible, since I can carry all my papers around in one book-sized object.

    Educational tech is good in moderation. I love not having to carry around 50 pieces of paper, but I wouldn't want to be taught via streaming video.

    (Of course, I guess it's very telling that I'm writing a post on /. during class, but then again, it keeps me awake for when he gets around to the important stuff and stops just repeating 'F=ma'.)

    1. Re:I post this from a laptop in a lecture. by iBod · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've just messaged your prof to tell him to throw a piece of chalk at you.

    2. Re:I post this from a laptop in a lecture. by carandol · · Score: 1

      Perhaps he'd stop repeating F=ma if you looked like you were paying attention :-)

    3. Re:I post this from a laptop in a lecture. by jhp64 · · Score: 1

      (Of course, I guess it's very telling that I'm writing a post on /. during class, but then again, it keeps me awake for when he gets around to the important stuff and stops just repeating 'F=ma'.)
      If it's a physics class, then repeating 'F=ma' is the important stuff.
      --
      This is the way Bi-Coloured Python-Rock-Snakes always talk.
  31. Dakota State University by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My university is an almost completely paperless campus. Every student, teacher, and administrator has a tablet pc. All homework, tests, notes, and whatever else you can think of is done with digital ink. It works amazingly well and considering how small and in-the-middle-of-nowhere it is I am surprised the large and progessive universities don't have systems like this already. http://www.dsu.edu/

    1. Re:Dakota State University by iBod · · Score: 1

      It sounds so unnecessary, and expensive.

      Could you explain the benefits of this tech-heavy approach in a learning environment?

      Personally, if I had to go back (too many years!) to the classroom, I think the tech would seriously get in my way.

      Also, reading back over paper notes and sketched diagrams seems to embed the information more firmly in my brain.

      Ok, maybe I'm an old fart, but give me paper and pen every time in a classroom, business meeting, or creative thinking moment.

  32. "The mind should be a factory, not a warehouse." by B1ackDragon · · Score: 1

    Thought I'd share a quote from one of my top five professors... see subject.

    --
    The snow doesn't give a soft white damn whom it touches. -- ee cummings
  33. Re:"The mind should be a factory, not a warehouse. by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

    That is an excellent way to put it. I may borrow that from time to time.

    --
    I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
  34. They haven't "Evolved"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they were "intelligently" designed that way...

    by corporate machines...

  35. If knowledge is all it's cracked up to be..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    then whatever method you use to put it over shouldn't matter a damn.

    Whether you use programmed sleep learning or sit in some olive groves with an Athenian philosopher, if knowledge is real then you'll learn it. If it's crap, then you won't.

    And, on the whole, I would rather be talking to Socrates than typing at a keyboard, even if the assembled knowledge of the world was available on the net.

  36. ob by Moderatbastard · · Score: 0

    As a student, let me say: tl;dr

    --
    1/3 of jokes get modded OT. If you get the joke, mod 1 in 3 insightful/interesting/underrated to restore karma balance.
  37. Not much by blueZ3 · · Score: 1

    As far as real differences on either end of the log.

    My mom's a professor at a college where they wholeheartedly embraced computer technology in the classroom right from when it first became viable (for non-comp-sci professors) and from my observations both as a student and in visiting her on campus, it hasn't really made a big difference.

    Those tenured old bores who droned on in endless lecture are now (mostly) reading PowerPoing presentations bullet-by-bullet. Engaging speakers who made connections with what students already know and what they will encounter after school are (mostly) just as effective. It's now possible to get the class syllabus on-line. Students who were meticulous about turning in assignments on time still are. The lazy ones who couldn't be bothered to look at a paper syllabus still don't. Those who took notes still do, albeit sometimes in a different way--the daydreamers are now playing Solitare.

    Setting aside the hype, what makes a student (or professor) successful hasn't changed in the last few hundred years, at least. It's possible that old Zog was droning on about mammoth hunts while Grum was showing his actual spear moves for fighting sabertooth tigers.

    I understand that there are those with poor organizational skills who feel there's been a great benefit to them, but I fail to see why they couldn't have had success using a paper planner.

    Much like books, or other teaching "technology", computers can only empower those who are already prepared for learning and teaching.

    --
    Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
  38. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've found that if a lecturer isn't very good he's going to get worse if you give him Powerpoint.

  39. at my college... by DragonTHC · · Score: 0

    There is a PC and Projector in every classroom. There's also a sound system, VCR/DVD, and document projector.

    That's every single classroom.

    A lot of professors choose not to use any of it though.

    I've had one professor use the document projector and DVD player. I've had one use the PC and sound system.
    My programming professor uses the PC and projector obviously.
    All the rest use markers on the whiteboard.

    I guess if the professor is old, they don't like technology.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
    1. Re:at my college... by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      I love me my technology, but nothing beats a simple whiteboard for on the fly discussion and brainstorming. It's cheap and it works and never bluescreens unless the blue marker explodes for some inadequately explored reason.

      Not EVERYTHING has to be made shiny and high tech. Voting is a good example.

      That's why we have whiteboards with digitizers all over the super doubleplus hightech place where I work.

      The projectors and other media are strictly for prepared presentations.

    2. Re:at my college... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The professor is there to help you learn. You read and investigate -- usually at the professor's direction -- and then the professor answers your questions and explains things that are often misunderstood. What use of the equipment would significantly help you learn the material?

      How would you like your professors to use the equipment?

    3. Re:at my college... by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

      Visual aids always help! And software presentations of the material in a dynamic and encompassing manner.

      The professors could provide these things for classroom instruction.

      --
      They're using their grammar skills there.
  40. I am a helluva long time student by heresyoftruth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am quite a bit older than most four year college students, but that's due to paying my own way, and stopping and starting related to money issues.

    I remember being one of the first in my classes to have a laptop to take notes on. I simply type faster, without thinking about it, than I can write notes. At first, it was seen as an anomaly. Now, it's almost normal. In the last quarter I went to, a year ago, a good third of the folks I went in with had laptops. There is also internet access. The best classes integrated online content, like access to notes and material with the lecture. It is amazing to get a PDF, or .doc that you can modify with your own notes.

    The worst had no online presence at all. I started with a computer science degree, and took the online presence for granted. Since I switched down to my "do you want fries with that" psych degree it's very hit and miss. I remember being in a 200 level psych class where the prof had no online presence, and stated he did not use email. A collective groan went up from the 200+ students.

    My husband, graduating this quarter with an accounting degree, and ready to take his CPA testing, actually had a professor last quarter outlaw laptops in the classroom. There was a quarter long argument between most of the class and the prof about it. The younger, normal aged, students were most frustrated with that. My husband, being an old fart, just switched over to paper notes, but said he really missed his laptop, and had forgotten how tedious paper could be.

    It is a testimony to my laptop use, in school, that my penmanship is not doctor grade illegible.

    --
    Nothing hides evidence like a stew. -Gus Pratt
  41. Should we get off your lawn now? by Joe+Tie. · · Score: 1

    I've always wondered when the next generational shift would become really apparent to me, and I think this is the moment when it's finally entered my field of vision. Half the comments on here sound almost exactly like my Grandparents when they talk about how evil the microwave is, or how we've lost an important part of life by getting a roomba. I'm even more shocked to find that anyone can go to school these days and 'not' find a large portion of the class taking notes on some kind of digital device.

    --
    Everything will be taken away from you.
  42. They... have... been... by davidsyes · · Score: 1

    Ass-imi-lated...

    Re-sistance... was fyu-tyle....

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  43. Real-time chat "classroom lecture backchannel" by Salamanders · · Score: 1

    Our masters program made use of a IRC channel to talk during some lectures, and it was completely a mixed bag. I could see that the professor would be suspicious of the typing and students looking at screens instead of them, but in some cases, having the TA on the backchannel was an excellent addition to the lecture, we could ask tangent questions and get the reply all without breaking the flow of the speaker. On team even did a visualization of the backchannel

  44. Novelty effect by edittard · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe if he stops using it it will go up even more.

    --
    At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
  45. notes on notebooks?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    More surprisingly, over half of laptop owners don't bring them to class at all

    Actually, i don't think it's surprising at all.

    Hand written notes are still the best because you can use all the paper-space how you want. write, delete, write over, change size of what you're writing... it's all because it's so flexible, adaptable.
    You don't have to follw formats, click 4 times to change size, search for an option to insert a graph or draw a cross, a line to make logic connections...

    Computers are better to keep everything in order, but order needs time!

    "well, but we have laptop with touchscreens!", yeah, 2kg compared to -maybe- 50gr of paper, you have to pay attention not to put too much pressure while writing, and pdas are still not that better, with a poor touch-recognition, and...
    you still have to rewrite it all!
    so why bother with uncomplete and not-flexible tech?

    i'll use pdas/notebooks to take notes when I won't have to worry the way I torture them, and when there'll be some kind of program that can translate my gerogliphics in a perfectly formatted document. Otherwise, i don't really see why anyone would take notes on them... you trow away battery power and flexibility...
  46. Paper still good! Me pound rock to make point! by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

    Nothing beats note taking on paper with one of those four color pens, which seem to be increasingly hard to find, sadly.

    Typing it all up into the computer later and adding diagrams (scanned or reconstructed in a drawing program) helps cement the info into your little neurons.

    Not everything has to be made high tech, and in some cases the high tech "solution" doesn't really solve anything and can cause more problems. *cough*voting*cough*

    Didn't they predict internet enabled refrigerators and coffee makers by now?

    Some try to paint it as a generational thing, but, no. It's just a case of some processes and technologies having matured to the point where there's really nothing wrong with them, and any gains to be had by throwing a computer at it are diminishing at best.

    Anyway, that's what labs are for. For any high tech/scientific degree, that's where the real learning happens.

    1. Re:Paper still good! Me pound rock to make point! by arodland · · Score: 1

      I type at 90+ AWPM (okay, that's perfect conditions... for note-taking we'll call it 70-80). I write at something like 10WPM if I want to be able to read it later on. Even the Graffiti input method (the original one, not the Jot abomination), while it doesn't compare to typing, is a good deal faster than writing on paper for me. So given that there aren't a whole lot of diagrams or anything, what would you suggest? :)

    2. Re:Paper still good! Me pound rock to make point! by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm coming from an engineering perspective. Half (sometimes more) of my old college notebooks are diagrams. Some pages are one big diagram. Although I found it useful even in general ed classes to create notes in flow charts and other arrangements that show underlying relationships.

  47. The Money Pit by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

    it hasn't really made a big difference.

    There's increasing numbers of studies that show just this now that the computers have been in place for a while. Computers can't fix the fundamental problems with the educational system. The "solutions" used to be throw more money at it!" That didn't work either as anyone in California can tell you. Now it's "Throw more computers at it!" or even "Throw more computers AND more money at it!"

    Those tenured old bores who droned on in endless lecture are now (mostly) reading PowerPoing presentations bullet-by-bullet.

    Ha! Same thing here in the corporate engineering world! I put my diagrams and text on separate slides and talk to the diagram. Seems to keep the audience awake. And I use a good old WOODEN pointer. None of that prissy LED pointer crap here. :) It's also useful to chuck like a spear at people carrying on their own meetings in the back, but I don't get much of that because I've become known for my accuracy.

  48. Habits by SpeedyGonz · · Score: 1

    Most of us were taught in school using pencil und paper.

    Maybe somebody from a future (present? past?) generation, educated solely using digital means, might find weird the concept of felling a tree just to scribble on it's processed corpse.

    Disclaimer: IANAGF (I am not a green ... fan)

  49. College 10 years ago by photomonkey · · Score: 1

    Even when I was in college about 10 years ago, there were a good many laptops, cellphones and PDAs in the classroom.

    I think professors could, for most classes, counter these trends with a sign on the door saying, "No non-life supporting electronic devices beyond this point. Violators expelled."

    I know that the American university (concept, not AU in DC) has become more of a daycare with ashtrays and STDs than a place of higher education for many, many students, but that doesn't mean that the universities have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

    --
    Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
  50. As a prof, I'll tell you... by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1
    It's not an even sweep across the student body. It's kind of bell curvish (I teach communication thoery, digital media, sound synthesis, stuff like that) in that some first years (freshmen in the USA) come in knowing more about ActionScript than I ever WANT to know. Some think the mouse is a microphone. MOST are somewhere in between - they've done email, surf the web a lot, know something about texting. Some have done some video editing in iMovie or MovieMaker. Some have done some music in GarageBand. Some have messed with Photoshop or done Powerpoint for a project in High School. they have familiarity with the tools, but are not expert or even very good at it, which is fine - it's what one expects from first years:

    some knowledge but not necessarily ultra-competent.

    I have noticed attention span reduction over the years, so to compensate, I change "what I'm doing" about every 20 minutes or so, and I put a lot more video and music in my Powerpoint presentations. I would RATHER use Keynote, but the Studenten use Office, and they out number me almost 200 to one....

    So, example:

    A class of second years (sophomores to the Americans...) all come chattering in to Communications Theory Class. I put up a slide with the class title and my name, while "Radio Prague" by OMD plays at increasingly loud volume... (no, it's not some drippy synthpop tune - it's a chopped up shortwave radio fanfare from Cold War era Czech Radio). They get the idea to shut up. This is followed by 15 minutes of lecture about philosophy which leads into a "follow the bouncing ball" rendition of Monty Python's "Bruce's Philosophy Song" (there's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya bout the raising of the wrist...) which had everyone laughing and many singing along. From there it was into some intro discussion of critical theory peppered with videos from Wonder Showzen, ancient TV commericals, and then we watched NETWORK form 1976. After that more discussion about the film and communications, etc. with a track by Rage Against the Machine.

    Basically, I have a very video and music driven lecture, because boring slides are boring, and artists have to get a solid point across simply and directly - so their work acts as a catalysing and intensifying agent. I could blather on for ages about problems with Corporate Ownership of media, or just show NETWORK, and get the same point across in a very convincing way... Still, lecturing is good for stuff that requires lecturing - sometimes you just have to explain it to people because they're just too stupid to get even a basic point. (Once I showed "BURN!" by Pontocorvo, and someone wrote that it showed how hard it is to control workers... nothing like completely missing the point...)

    Interestingly, I don't let people use laptops during class - if I do, experience shows me they're going to spend all their time in Facebook...

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  51. Real change by Duncan3 · · Score: 1

    They telecommute to class and outsource their homework?

    Other then that, if you're actually interested in learning something, it's still all the same hard work and effort.

    --
    - Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
  52. Devolution by Orig_Club_Soda · · Score: 1

    Between calculators and the internet students have no unplugged skills.

  53. Scott's question forgets that by museumpeace · · Score: 1

    there is such a thing as a grad student TA. People who are young enough to have essentially never been without internet, TM, cell phones and chatware and don't seem much troubled by using anything that is downloadable are now facing the students as well as sitting among them. The senior who got wireless and could google the answer to the prof's question using his laptop is going to know what's going on when, just a year later, he is handling a recitation section as a TA. It is probably a real relief to the stereotyped generation of superannuated "professors" Scott may be trying to conjure up in his choice of words

    Or from another vantage point: profs who kept stingy office hours are just sticking to formula if they update that behavior by ignoring email...nothing new here, move along. OK, now to go RTFA ;)

    --
    SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
  54. Only if you can prove students actually benefit by fantomas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The killer sentence is in the second paragraph

    "Most students (60.9 percent) believe it improves their learning."

    Most students also believe drinking 10 pints of beer and farting loudly is really funny and will improve their chances of getting laid....

    What the students believe and what is actually true may be two completely different things. I should imagine most professors will turn round and ask to see proof that the technology really does improve student learning before adopting a different teaching methodology.

    (disclaimer: I'm a university researcher working in technology and education)

  55. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by BarlowBrad · · Score: 1

    Exactly. The best professors are those who capture my attention and in doing so I find myself thinking through (both absorbing and analyzing) the information they are presenting. It doesn't matter if they have high tech or low tech presentations, but what is important is they get the information to the students so that they can both remember and use it in the future.

  56. I thought .... by PPH · · Score: 1
    ... this was an article on how students' right hands were evolving into a claw shape optimal for operating a mouse, or something like that.

    Never mind.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  57. There was an entire conference on this a week ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Complete with keynote from Google's Peter Norvig (available online) and others -- http://www.alt.ac.uk/altc2007/.

  58. PowerPoint sucks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to mindlessly parrot "PowerPoint sucks" until I sat down and thought about it.
    Then, I thought to myself, "What would be a better way of getting the point across?"
    Is your issue with the fancy animations that waste time? If so, then I agree that PowerPoint sucks in that respect. If it's with something else, I'd like to know as well, preferably with some alternate solution to PowerPoint.

    Thanks!

    -- An Anonymous Coward

    1. Re:PowerPoint sucks? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      PowerPoint doesn't suck (well, yes, it does, Keynote is WAY better). It's the way in which people use it.

      Doing research in an engineering department I've had to sit through a LOT of really bad PP presentations. But I've also seen a few really good ones, that I try and emulate.

      My first rule to myself is to use the slides as a visual aid. VISUAL aid. No words. Naturally it gets broken some, but as little as possible. I've seen too many presentations where the presenter is entirely superfluous... I can read the slides better than he can read them to me.

      Today I'm giving a lecture on a topic that's not visual at all, so that rule can't be followed. So I ditched the Keynote presentation and printed up notes. I'll use the white board for equations and simple figures. There's more opportunity for student interaction that way and it seems to be easier to pay attention.

    2. Re:PowerPoint sucks? by Fear+the+Clam · · Score: 1

      I think you've distilled the idea perfectly.

      In my own lectures I divide things into modules. Some modules are enhanced with a Keynote/PowerPoint presentation to illustrate the points, and some aren't, a work best with a chalkboard or just opening a text editor on screen and typing up ideas. It really depends on whether the module requires more of a lecture or a discussion format.

  59. Everything! by Hangin10 · · Score: 1

    Almost all the classes (all except math), have started using blackboard.com at my local community college (Harper College). A good portion of the teachers haven't yet come up with a good use for it besides posting homework assignments there instead of just writing it on the board or saying what to read at the end of the class when everyone's trying to filter out the door. Even worse, homework in my physics class is now 4 multiple choice questions posted online and she ("professor") never goes over them. The class time on Wed. is dedicated to practicing problems, but she won't even help. She just posts a PDF of the solutions on the online site. It ridiculous, at what point should I not have to pay for credit hours, eventually it might as well be $300 to send me a textbook (if that) and an account to the online site with solutions, plus a team of people that answer questions in a chat with a virtual MS-Paint OLE'd into the browser window.

  60. Re:Change along with technology required to be hea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I totally agree with you. Technology often doesn't enhance the abilities of the learner, but instead enhances the abilities of a good teacher. Let's use Walter Lewin's Lectures as an example.

    He doesn't need high tech gadgets to make his point. He uses 3 chalkboards and a demo that applies to the lecture each time, and I found it to be one of the most educational and fun classes I've ever taken. As a result, I think I remember it better than most of my other classes.

  61. The tools are only as good as their users.... by r_jensen11 · · Score: 1

    Like many people have pointed out, if a professor can't lecture without modern technology, odds are that he's going to do worse with a powerpoint presentation and a projector. I've seen it plenty. I have also seen excellent lecturers use powerpoint presentations properly and are much more organized as a result of them. No more overhead sheets sliding off the table and onto the floor, no more having to dig through piles of sheets to find something discussed at the beginning of lecture, etc.

    Likewise, the same argument also holds true for students. Some students are pretty good with using laptops for note-taking. I often wish I had some way that I could take notes without being bound to the size of the 8x11 sheets that I print the professors' ppt's off on to. However, the vast majority of students I see on laptops during lecture are doing at least one of the following:

    Checking their portfolio performance (I'm a finance major)
    Checking Facebook
    IM'ing
    email
    collegehumor
    random flash games

    While they're doing the above, I'm having to sit either next to them, in front of them, or behind them, and having to hear them tapping away at their keyboards all through lecture. It gets as annoying as having two people sitting right by you whispering during the whole lecture.

  62. Kansas? by laejoh · · Score: 0

    Did anyone check Kansas? I'm curious if students are evolving overthere as well.

    1. Re:Kansas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm an electrical engineer.

      But I hold the opinion, "If the new tool is not better than the old tool, don't waste time upgrading." That's why I still use pen and paper for most of my work. It's still a LOT easier to "thrash out" a diagram or a schematic using a scrap piece of paper, then to try to do the same thing on PowerPoint or some other graphical program.

      What matters is not HOW the information is transferred. It's WHAT the information says, whether it's in the form of a spoken lecture, or a printed textbook, or photocopied notes handed-out by the professor. Who needs a $2000 laptop, when a $5 pile of paper + pen can do the same job of storing the information for later retrieval.

      PLUG:

      I've learned more from listening to the Teaching Company's audio lectures, than I ever learned in Penn State lectures. Sure the Teaching Company's lectures are old technology (audiocassettes invented in the 1960s), in a less-than-ideal environment (driving down the I-95), but it's proven to be very, very effective for me personally. Why? Because the professors are the best-of-the-best.

      Good teaching == effective learning, regardless of the medium used.

  63. MACKENZIE MORGAN NAKED & PETRIFIED by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear Beautiful Mackenzie Morgan (an Actual Girl):

    I'd like to sneak up behind you and start fondling you violently and then as you struggle to try to escape I'll take a scientifically-proven magic petrification ray from my bag and zap you with it, and it would first disintegrate all your clothing, leaving you gloriously naked, then it would start the process of transforming your body into marble, inducing in you a massive magically-induced which would be captured eternally as your body is turned into solid stone from the feet up to the head gradually, freezing your final moan of ecstasy as you become a beautiful, cold lifeless statue, but with your mind still alive inside the statue, aware of everything that happens to you. I would put you in display in art museums so that everyone could admire your spectacular naked & petrified teen body, then I would put you on a pedestal in my apartment and admire you constantly, and climb up on the pedestal and make love to your stony form, getting my penis raw & red from the friction, and covering your beautiful hard marble skin with my spooge, my beloved naked-and-petrified queen.

    (NOTE: This is just a fantasy; I would not actually do this.)

    p.s. I like masturbating to your Blogspot picture