Olin College — Re-Engineering Engineering

theodp writes "In its College Issue, the NYT Magazine profiles tuition-free Olin College, which is building a different breed of engineer, stressing creativity, teamwork, and entrepreneurship — and, in no small part, courage. But questions remain as to whether the industry is ready for the freethinking products of Olin, and vice versa. Few of the class of 2006 are going on to grad study in engineering or jobs in the field."

Comments

Re:horray!

[JoelKatz]

I guess they don't teach either counting or spelling at Olin.

Predicting short term failure and long term succes

[randalware]

Watch the graduates !

They will have trouble with the established firms set in their ways.

Thus they will be unemployed at a high rate.

And because of that they will start their own companies !

And Profit !

Hard facts first

[Gothmolly]

2 stories after the "why are no American kids going to grad school?" article, we have an article that explains how Engineering is teamwork, enthusiasm, and feeling good about yourself. Coincidence?

Re:Hard facts first

[Acrimonymous]

I'm more annoyed that it has extended to colleges. It used to be that public schools peddled this super-sensitive horseshit. Now kids are not only learning it in high school, they're having it reinforced throughout college.

I don't know whether to be ecstatic that my job is secure, or annoyed that my employees from now on will all be clueless idiots....

Re:Hard facts first

[Valar]

Are you suggesting that there's no teamwork in engineering?

Interesting facts:

Most airplanes are designed by one person.

Most computer chips are designed by one person.

Buildings, ditto.

Oh wait. Hmm.

Anyway, even if engineering specifically didn't require the ability to work in a team, modern life does. That's why companies exist in the first place-- you can make more money together than apart.

Re:Hard facts first

[Jarjarthejedi]

Yes but, last time I checked, someone who never learned proper aerodynamics isn't going to be designing an airplane, even with a bunch of them in a team.

Teamwork is nice, but it's more important that you know what you're doing. It's not too hard to learn at least the basics of teamwork while working on a large project, but it's extremely difficult to learn the basics of what you're doing while working on the same project.

Re:Hard facts first

[bigstrat2003]

I disagree. I think it's far easier to teach someone the technical stuff (although they should be expected to know that too), than to teach them how to not be an asshole. How many people with poor people skills have you worked with, who later turned it around? I know my total would be 0, and I suspect many others have had the same experience.

Re:Hard facts first

[bladesjester]

I hate to break it to you, but being comfortable with teamwork and having confidence in yourself and your abilities (as well as knowing when you don't have all of the information/experience that you need and when to defer to others who *do* have the requisite skills and experience) is not "super-sensitive" nor is it "horseshit".

In fact, they are very valuable skills and attributes to have. Not just in engineering, but in life.

Re:Hard facts first

[fermion]

From personal experience, the lack of engineers has more to do with the lack of jobs for the average person than the lack of graduates. I know many engineers, and the ones that are not working as engineers are not doing so because there were no interesting jobs available to them. Even those that are employed tend to have seen the companies reduce the overall job picture, even in oil companies.

To digress, when I was a kid, I really thought that I would be working in energy or space. But then I realized that the money for these technologies is practically non existent compared to old technologies, technologies that are not only have few interesting problems to solve,but are dying. For example, we can subsidize ethanol to the point that we have surpluses and possible food issues, but we can't find enough money for solar. Even when interesting problems do exist, like nuclear, it does not appear that nuclear is ever going to be self reliant industry, rather depending on the dole, and probably requiring another huge consumer bailout.

So I am one of the many that are not developing new technologies, which is really no problem as companies are finding the labor they need at the price that they want. All those thing the parent criticize are necessary. We need to work in teams, we are more likely to succeed if we believe we can succeed, and one is more likely to work hard if the job has some tangible benefit, either intrinsic in the work or extrinsic due to pay or the like.

Back to the point, what is annoying is all of this crying over lack of 'local' talent, and blaming students or schools or culture. It is fact supply and demand. If a firm can recruit worldwide and hire the top 5% of the world population for the same amount that they used to hire the top 15% of the US population, then that logically means that those in the US not in the 5%, but in the 15%, that used to have a job, will not. As I said, supply and demand. And if one goes to a school that does not have the course so that ones GPA is good enough to get into the few colleges that generates the top 5% of engineers, then what is the point. Engineers, unlike athletes, have analytical minds, and will not be so easily seduced with the 1 in 10,000 chance to make it.

Re:Hard facts first

[profplump]

I don't disagree per say, but how many people have you worked with that didn't have the necessary technical skills, but later turned it around? I know my total would be 0, and just like the assholes, sometimes they even drag otherwise useful people down with them.

Re:Hard facts first

[Ex-MislTech]

How many people with poor people skills have you worked with, who later turned it around? I know my total would be 0, and I suspect many others have had the same experience.

So true.

A-holes abound in all job fields, and lots of them got their jobs because of who they know,
vs. what they know. Butt kissing and nepotism play a big factor in some jobs in the US.

I imagine it occurs overseas as well.

I have seen ppl at companies here in the US who are totally unqualified for the job
that not even decent ppl to work just because those ppl go to the same church as
someone that does the hiring or is the supervisor.

"pathetic"

Re:Hard facts first

[p0tat03]

Who says the two are mutually exclusive? Besides, one has to create the foundation for a good engineer before proceeding to stuff all kinds of technical jargon into his head.

Re:Hard facts first

[Tomfrh]

http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/perse.html

Re:Hard facts first

[jcr]

Most airplanes are designed by one person.

Not quite. There are many more kit plane designs than half-billion-dollar airliner designs, but if you count up the number of aircraft rather than the number of types of aircraft, the majority are types that were designed by large teams.

-jcr

Re:Hard facts first

[mdarksbane]

Of course, I've never seen a college class that could turn an asshole into someone you would want to work with. The only thing that can even mitigate that is good leadership at the current position to keep the asshole in line.

Not that practicing teamwork skill isn't important - but aside from practice in general social manners, the only useful things I can see actually teaching someone are less teamwork and more leadership.

In my experience, the best teams of anything aren't a group of equals - they're a group of people who bought into their leader's ideas and worked to make it better. The old rule about "Design by Committee" exists for a reason.

Good products come from someone with a vision who put together a good team to go make it for him. They get better if the leader guy listens to new ideas occasionally, but he has to be leading or it just becomes disjointed.

Re:Hard facts first

[Watson Ladd]

I wonder if you have ever worked on a team with someone who is a complete and utter asshole. No matter how good they are at what they do, the effect it has on you being able to do your work more then cancels any gains from his work.

Re:Hard facts first

[Valar]

Yeah, that was my point. I guess my sarcasm didn't translate.

Re:Hard facts first

[nwbvt]

Are you suggesting that there is no mathematics or science or any of the other things this program has to forgo in order to have its students attend the happy feel good courses it describes?

The problem with engineers today isn't that they look at their shoes when talking so someone like they say in the article, thats a joke, not real life. In reality, many engineers are very outgoing people, and those that are not are perfectly capable of working with a team. Real engineers rarely fit the stereotype of the "socially awkward clock-puncher", so these guys are trying to fix a problem that really doesn't exist.

Re:Hard facts first

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I would rather work with an asshole who knew how to complete a task that a great guy that didn't. One of these options actually gets the task done.

Re:Hard facts first

[HornWumpus]

I wonder if you have ever worked on a team with someone who is a complete and utter incompetent? No matter how good a team player they are, the effect it has on you being able to do your work more then cancels any gains from his team work.

Having 'good enough' social skills is certainly important. But you should have gotten those in middle school. If you can't work in a group by the time you reach engineering school you are unlikely to gain anything from more feel good nonsense fed to you by teachers. Besides engineering school is hard enough without wasting time on 'warm fuzzies'. Some things just can't be taught in school. Not being an asshole is one of those.

What courses are they planning on dropping to make room for 'entrepreneur class'? Thermodynamics? Circuits? Statics? Differential Equations?

Mixing a strong does of Business school with Engineering will only diminish Engineering. Those that want can always double major (and pad their GPA with business courses).

Re:Hard facts first

[HornWumpus]

The foundation was created in grade and middle school.

That is the age at which it is possible to teach someone not to be an asshole. After that it's too late.

Re:Hard facts first

[Anonymous Coward]

they are valuable attributes, but some schools are teaching kids confidence at the expense of competence. I had to pull my son out of the public school system because of this. they are teaching math where the kids can get a high grade just by trying. The correct answer is not important just the effort. In this case we are graduating functional and technical idiots who feel good about themselves. Math and science are not the place to teach self esteem. I suppose you are okay with graduating engineers who don't know math but feel great about it.

Re:Hard facts first

[p0tat03]

Yes... Unfortunately the public school system sucks, and universities are left to do quite a bit of catch-up. My school is very internship oriented (all undergrad engineers must take 6 internships before being allowed to graduate), and it never ceases to amaze me the kind of stupid jerk-off things students do while at work. There's much work to be done yet on them.

Re:Hard facts first

[bigstrat2003]

It's true. I think that both technical and people skills are equally necessary to be a good member of a team. Lacking either means that the team suffers because of you. I just was saying that technical skills can be taught, whereas people skills are almost impossible to teach to adults.

Re:Hard facts first

[HornWumpus]

Stupid jerk-off things are just part of being that age. They will grow out of that (assuming they are still growing).

Asshole is forever. If someone is an asshole at 18 it is far too late. Shoot him/her. I blame the parents more then the schools (there are plenty of assholes coming out of prestigious private schools).

Re:Hard facts first

[PachmanP]

Well if taught properly, in theory, if given F=ma they could derive aerodynamics without being taught proper aero. It just means doing stuff that's already been done... I guess they also would need to have been taught all that eng math stuff though.

Re:Hard facts first

[bladesjester]

I suppose you are okay with graduating engineers who don't know math but feel great about it.

Apparently you missed where I said "knowing when you don't have all of the information/experience that you need and when to defer to others who *do* have the requisite skills and experience"

Part of the follow up to realizing that you don't have the information or skills that you need is to acquire them if you need to.

Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[toxic666]

I'm not that old, 43, but feel like an old timer in engineering. Son of a EE gone Chief Engineer and trained as a GeolE (1987).

Olin is not inventing a new kind of engineer, they are trying to bring back the engineers of my father's generation. But they can put out the finest people on earth and it won't matter. Bean counters run companies now and they don't like what a good engineer has to say. Horrible things like "we need money to develop this idea", "saving ten cents per item will not save you money in the long run when it breaks and you have to replace it" and the ever-popular "outsourcing production to the cheapest labor you can find is not a good idea because it takes a little bit of skill and QA/QC to build it right".

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[AaxelB]

I'm kinda the opposite of an old timer in engineering (a current undergrad), so maybe I can give a good opposing viewpoint.

Bean counters run companies now and they don't like what a good engineer has to say.

Olin College was my first choice when I was applying to colleges a few years back (alas, I got rejected) largely because the things they emphasize ("creativity, teamwork, and entrepreneurship") aren't geared to produce engineers that will simply serve the "bean counters" better. Note the emphasis they place on entrepreneurship. These "new" engineers are not supposed to take your standard entry-level engineering job, they're supposed to come up with brand new ideas and create new companies that will be founded on the same concepts that Olin was, thus actually chaging the role of engineers, not just how they're taught.

I think they think that long term change is easier to accomplish by changing the playing field rather than just training the players differently.

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[Kjella]

Having seen a little bit from both sides of the fence, it wouldn't hurt to see those "old school" engineers being asked questions like "ok, who wants this and how much are they willing to pay for it?" (answer: almost noone and almost nothing). Or "customers aren't willing to pay for a product that lasts 20 years, but they're willing to pay four times for a product that lasts five years. Would you rather ship the best possible product or the one we can make a living of?". Or "tell me why you think this indian engineer, who's probably in the top few percentiles of indians in general, can't do as good a job as you?".

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Would you rather ship the best possible product or the one we can make a living of?".

The best possible product that people will buy? There's such a thing as a reputation for quality.

Or "tell me why you think this indian engineer, who's probably in the top few percentiles of indians in general, can't do as good a job as you?"

He probably can. Good luck getting him for cheap.

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[toxic666]

Ahh, it's good to see some thought process going on out there. But an engineering degree does not an engineer make. My education began in earnest after I graduated and worked under experienced engineers in an entrepreneurial situation. It took two years in the field -- 1987 to 1989 -- before I was ready to play. I maintain contact with college profs and its a good two-way exchange. They have the theory and new ideas, I have the practical experience.

But to make new companies it takes experience and a business plan. Enter the bean counters. And the bean counters now control the playing field.

It can be done, and it still happens. But primarily, engineering is no longer respected. The engineer as innovator is underfunded and engineer as quality/safety voice is unheard.

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[The One and Only]

No, he means English singer-songwriter Peter Noone.

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[dwater]

LOL

Come *on* moderators! That's gotta be a "+5 funny".

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[pipingguy]

I'm a bit older, non-degreed and have 25 years experience in process plant design. What I often see is over-reliance on software. CAD especially seems to have caused a lot of problems (some companies do it right, but far too often it's worse than hand-made drawings).

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[br00tus]

they're supposed to come up with brand new ideas and create new companies that will be founded on the same concepts that Olin was

Manufacturing stuff that blows up (people)?

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[mmurphy000]

But to make new companies it takes experience and a business plan. Enter the bean counters. And the bean counters now control the playing field.

Speaking as a two-time — soon to be three-time — entrepreneur, there's a mix of internal and external factors at play here.

External factors, like America's sue-happy society and mountains of regulation, can't readily be addressed by any individual firm or college program. We can only hope that enough individual firms and college programs take root that, over time, society's attitudes can change and these problems will shrink.

Internally, though, engineering entrepreneurs can readily avoid bean counters (or attorneys) interfering with business operations...if the entrepreneurs are willing to set some limits. Some of those limits will be for the bean counters and attorneys: hire ones with the proper attitude, give them marching orders for how to best support an innovative firm in their roles, reward those who follow through, and fire the sorry asses of those who don't. Some of those limits will be for the entrepreneur itself, such as not taking on financing (e.g., venture capital) that come with un-controlled bean counters and attorneys attached. While that latter limitation will seem to some to be a show-stopper, understand that an engineering entrepreneur needs to not only engineer technical solutions to meet their vision, but also engineer business models and structures to meet that same vision. For an example, read The Great Game of Business and A Stake in the Outcome by Jack Stack and Bo Burlingham.

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[Hognoxious]

My education began in earnest after I graduated and worked under experienced engineers in an entrepreneurial situation. It took two years in the field -- 1987 to 1989 -- before I was ready to play.

I agree, you need to do your time in the trenches. If nothing else it gets your head out of the clouds. And if you're going to make mistakes - the raw material of experience - better to do them on someone else's expense rather than your own.

I think the goals are fine, but they'd work better as a postgrad (ideally post experience) program.

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[LionKimbro]

Honestly, it sounds like you've just given up.

Maybe you should apply to Olin.

Re:Quasi-Old Fart Observation

[toxic666]

Not given up, but realistic. When you go to several CFO's with a a six month ROI and get shot down because that's too long to wait, you get the idea. Most companies work that way, but not all. It's just tough to find the ones who think beyond the next quarter.

Good plan.

[Dragon By Proxy]

Now, let's see it at other levels of communication.

I, as a student of a public high school in America, take in more force-fed facts that are expected to be regurgitated, and get fewer and fewer chances to let my creative juices flow. Rather than writing that a person thinks something happened, I think someone could get more of a benefit out of writing about why it happened.

Perhaps that's why all forms of math are just so hard for me to wrap my head around; I know that things work, but I don't see why it's useful.

That aside, in a post-No-Child-Left-Educated world, would there be any creativity left to teach anything like this?

I'm not a teacher, nor am I always a realist, so I might just be thinking too optimistically about this. I guess it'd be best to just wait and see.

Re:Good plan.

[king-manic]

Now, let's see it at other levels of communication.

I, as a student of a public high school in America, take in more force-fed facts that are expected to be regurgitated, and get fewer and fewer chances to let my creative juices flow. Rather than writing that a person thinks something happened, I think someone could get more of a benefit out of writing about why it happened.

Perhaps that's why all forms of math are just so hard for me to wrap my head around; I know that things work, but I don't see why it's useful.

That aside, in a post-No-Child-Left-Educated world, would there be any creativity left to teach anything like this?

I'm not a teacher, nor am I always a realist, so I might just be thinking too optimistically about this. I guess it'd be best to just wait and see.

Well I don't think the problem is that school isn't "creative enough". It's that school is far too behind and dumbed down. If you think your getting forced fed facts now wait till university. They will give you the equivalent of an entire High school semester worth of material in any given week. They go over it in general and you fill in the rest through reading and study.

What I think the problem is, is that they gave you some notion that there is some mystical teaching method that will fill your heads with these facts instantly. That some "Dead poets society" type teaching methods exists to instantly make you a scholar. It doesn't. Any given child in most semi developed Asian country will be 2 grades ahead of you in math and he was just "force fed" that stuff. Actually almost any given kid in the west as well will be about 2 grades ahead of you in almost any subject except maybe English and (if your state has it) "civics". America set the bar really low when it come to education, even before dubya.

One of the key differences as well is culture. The Us has a very anti-intellectual culture. In every teen or kids show They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool. It's a rare breed that is smart and not a social misfit in American culture. While in Asian cultures doing well contributes to yoru social standing.

It's hard to really teach in such a culture. You need to really want to devour knowledge. No teacher, no matter how good, can be a substitute for a passion to learn and thats something that isn't imparted much these days. It's really up to your family to do that. So if you think force feeding knowledge is bad, well guy it never changes. You either take it upon yourself to learn why or you'll be left behind by the rest of the world.

Re:Good plan.

[dragoneye1589]

I semi-agree with you saying that you are force fed facts in university. The thing about it is, you aren't being forced to learn, its fully up to you, the informations there for you, but if you don't want it, good for you. Now I haven't had to learn a lot in one week yet (I'm only a first year engineering student), but at the speeds most high schools go at, learning that much should not be a problem. About not being "creative enough" I have been told by my professors, that they will teach us lots of facts, and make us use them, and at times we will feel like we can't have any creativity at all, but the creativity we hold on to will make us better engineers. Now one of the things that always bugged me about primary and secondary education is that they were lacking the creativity to figure out ways to challenge, or at least keep interested the students that found the material in classes excessively easy.

Re:Good plan.

[Rakishi]

Now one of the things that always bugged me about primary and secondary education is that they were lacking the creativity to figure out ways to challenge, or at least keep interested the students that found the material in classes excessively easy. That is mainly a problem of parents not the schools, in that there are ways around it even right now but few parents want to take the effort to do so for their children or actually force their little brats to learn something.

There are magnet schools, distance learning programs, grade skipping, taking classes at local college, taking classes from higher grades, learning on your own, moving to a district with better schools, sending kids to a district with better schools, summer programs, college level summer programs, after school programs, special private programs for gifted students (that will help deal with all these possibilities and provide financial help) and so on.

School administrators are more often than not petty small minded morons but that makes them relatively easy to manipulate. Sure it takes time and effort (for both the student and parents) but no one ever said being a parent is easy. Optimally it'd be nice if the school system helped more with such things but realistically it likely never will.

Re:Good plan.

[MightyYar]

I may not be popular for suggesting this, but in my experience high school was mostly a waste. College is where it's at. Get through high school any way you have to. Take classes with teachers that you get along with, get involved with activities that interest you, and get yourself into college - any college.

I will make one suggestion regarding homework, though... I was like you in high school... never did any homework, managed to do all right by acing tests. THIS WILL NOT GET YOU THROUGH COLLEGE, at least not an engineering degree. I had to learn how to learn in my sophomore year of college and it was not easy - I was on academic probation that year. My advice is to try to discipline yourself and take at least one interesting but hard class in high school where you need to develop study habits. If you never do homework for any other class, do it for that one and make it your goal to ace the class. This will save you from a disaster of a year like I had :)

Re:Good plan.

[JWW]

You need to really want to devour knowledge. No teacher, no matter how good, can be a substitute for a passion to learn and thats something that isn't imparted much these days.

I agree with you, but I'm seeing a much different problem with our schools. That problem is that the work they make students do is crap!!

My son has a passion for learning and will absorb facts and details, but what he's getting from school for homework make it appear that teachers have a passion for drilling and for useless time wasting assignments. This last week my son had an assignment in social studies that required him to do drawing pictures and coloring them. What the hell does that have to do with geography (what they're studying right now)? I just can't stand the type of busywork thats being assigned these days to keep kids working. This assignment had almost no value to my son, but took him over 6 hours this week to complete. Thats 6 hours wasted where he could have learned any number of things about many different topics (or had time to play creatively as a kid).

We're not just being touchy feely in our presenting of the material, the assignments have become meaningless busywork and not really learning.

Re:Good plan.

[nwbvt]

First, that has nothing to do with the No Child Left Behind Act, I can assure you public schools were like that well before Bush was ever president. Hell schools were probably like that before any Bush was president, though that would be from before my time. Many (especially here on /. where Bush isn't exactly seen in high regard (not sure how the reconcile the fact Ted Kennedy was the one who really pushed it through though)) like to blame all the woes of our education system on that act, but that belies the fact that virtually all of these problems have been in existence for a long, long time.

Second, like it or not, you have to learn how to regurgitate facts. That is what a lot of the world consists of. Doctors have to regurgitate facts concerning human anatomy. Lawyers have to regurgitate legal precedents. Engineers have to regurgitate laws of physics. Software developers have to regurgitate design patterns. And etc. I know its not as fun as doing creative things, but if it was they wouldn't have to teach it. Students would do it on their own (which incidentally is what you can do with all the creative things you want to do, do them on your own instead of spending all day playing video games and writing on /.).

And furthermore, being comfortable with all those facts you had to memorize is generally a prerequisite to doing the creative stuff (or at least doing it well). For instance you have to first have a good understanding of musical theory in order to write a great symphony. So just tough it out, you will get to the creative stuff eventually.

Re:Good plan.

[dragoneye1589]

I pretty much did everything I could, and I was still never challenged. I do blame some of the teachers actually, it even happened that I had to go in for a meeting with a teacher because I wasn't doing anything since I did all the work already. Some of the things I did include learning on my own, taking classes from a higher grade (which was actually a bad idea in hindsight due to the next reason), and moving schools especially to take a special program for gifted students (I ended up having to teach myself the course of the class I took a grade higher for two years). Now I believe that changing schools was the best decision I ever made, not because I was challenged, but I made way more friends, and in the second year of the special program I took I was with an awesome class where nearly everyone was friends with each other. I now hope that all those issues are behind me now that I'm in University.

Re:Good plan.

[Eli Gottlieb]

This has a lot to do with idiotic "concerned parents" who pass school-district wide rules such as "students of the X grade level must have Y hours of homework in Z subject every night". Teachers don't want to assign (and therefore, grade) that much crapwork, they have to.

Re:Good plan.

[Eli Gottlieb]

As a college freshman, I'd like to second the poster above.

Get through high school as quickly as you can, preferably as well as you can. Finishing early will save you precious time and make you a more attractive college admissions candidate.

Take pre-calculus (a wasted year of review) in community college or otherwise over the summer and go straight to calculus. You will thank yourself later, since not only will it make your applications look good, but every technical (since you're a Slashdotter) major in college requires Calculus 1 and 2 at least. Learn to write and speak well, because you never know what you can learn or what influence you can wield with a few well-placed words.

Then put your ass in college. If you have brains, talent, motivation and some street smarts you can make college the best time of your life. You don't have to find the most prestigious school or the best party school or the school with the best research department in your favorite subject or the cheapest school. You have to find the best compromise on these and all the other things you want in a school -- the best fit for you.

I have only one bit of hard-and-fast advice: avoid student loans at all costs. They are Satan himself embodied in a bureaucratic note! This is where studying hard in high school really pays off, as it can win you merit scholarships. Take these where you can find them, since they serve as a good indication of how well a school actually values its top-performing freshman and undergrads. Schools like MIT that can admit ten geniuses with the stroke of a pen don't actually bother to pay for those geniuses, preferring to spend their vast endowments on need-based grants, but even the top schools just below that level will award large enough sums to keep you out of debt if you have good grades and Board scores, especially if you know what you want to do.

Overall, you'll spend the next three years enduring the needless abuse we call high school, followed by one year (senior year) enduring every adult you know trying to poke and prod you so they can "recommend" (ie: decide in your best interests) a future for you. Don't allow that, and try to have your parents back you up. If they're good parents, they will understand that you have to go (literally go) where you think best rather than where your guidance counselor (probably of sub-human intelligence, if like most) thinks will enhance the high-school's reputation.

Above all, follow your gifts and your loves.

Misfits

[michaelmalak]

From TFA:

In some companies, he says, the freethinking products of Olin might have trouble fitting in. "Does industry want people like that? I think that's a very good question, but I think this goes beyond what industry wants," he said. "This is the right thing to do -- this is what industry needs. If the country had more people like this, we'd be in a much better situation."

Does Olin offer courses in:

• How to change Wall St. to stop looking only at the next quarter's results?
• How to deal with PHB's and bean counters?
• How to persuade the customer to fund your "freethinking" idea instead of the customer's idea?

If not, Olin is producing useless misfits. Oh, I agree that "misfit" is something "good" to be sought after in a certain sense -- creativity is what makes us human. But that's not what the economy needs in the post-Industrial Revolution world.

Re:Misfits

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, they do.

the article was quite clear on this: the school teaches students how to *solve problems*. if this premise is accurate, then yes: they offer courses that teach you how to deal with all the above regurgitated prerequisites- and most anything else they can throw at you. congratulations on completely missing the point of TFA.

Re:Predicting short term failure and long term suc

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Or they can start their own companies right away and get short term success, maybe even long term success. Engineers without some amount of business sense might be long term failures too, or even short term failures. It's all a gamble in many ways.

Re:horray!

[JustOK]

Its perfectly within tolerances based on the specifications.

Re:hmmm

[QuickFox]

I learned those things while I was supposed to be studdying It shows. Clearly you weren't studdying enough.

Paradigm!

[OverflowingBitBucket]

Oooh! Oooh! An exciting new paradigm. Is the world really ready for this exciting new paradigm yet. I bet it isn't!

Well, best of luck to them. My exciting new paradigm of sleeping in until midday every day hasn't caught on in the stoic and unchanging business world. They just haven't caught on to my forward and freethinking ways. But just you wait... my Slashdot story is coming soon!

Re:Paradigm!

[AaxelB]

Good job! You used "paradigm" correctly!

Re:Paradigm!

[OverflowingBitBucket]

Damn. What are the odds that the Olin College grads got mod points on the same day that the story went live...

Re:courage

[OverflowingBitBucket]

Courage always helped me build the best bridges!

It certainly allows you to cross the worst ones. ;)

Y-Combinator(Olin)

[univgeek]

Interesting :-).

Y-combinator seems to be generating 40 quickie get-big-or-die-trying companies a year. What I found interesting is that in a few years 'Alumnus of Y-combinator' is going to have a very good cachet associated with it - just as an MS from a good college does. There're going to be a bunch of successes and even those who don't succeed will have the associated aura. The guys who put themselves through Y-combinator are a self-selected bunch of motivated people, who might even have an above average chance of succeeding in life.

Olin students might have similar self-selected characteristics. And in a few years, the results of that experiment - with widespread Olin alumni support - are going to be worth watching.

Note, I'm in no way related to either. Just speculating on a correlation that I see.

Re:Y-Combinator(Olin)

[IamTheRealMike]

Not convinced about that myself. The Y-Combinator companies seem to be mostly cookie-cutter "let's take this well worn problem, and do it in Rails!" type ventures. Wake me up when one has a truly new idea, executes well, and gets big. Until then it's basically riding on Grahams name.

Re:Y-Combinator(Olin)

[Xeo2]

There's actually quite a bit of overlap, at least 8 Y Combinator founders have been Olin students.

A drop in a bucket ( a very empty bucket at that )

[ceallaigh]

Engineering based firms that hire Computer Science and Computer Engineering undergraduates are struggling to meet their recruitment goals today. Although coming up with new ways to shape the skills and experiences of engineering undergraduates is noble and necessary. It hardly helps with the overall lack of new students majoring in those subjects at university in the first place. This program is an interesting experiment at an elite school. But it hardly has any impact on the lack of students choosing this field.

The other problem I have with it is that the ideas espoused are not terribly new. At the University of Nebraska's School of Engineering students can enter the JD Edwards Honors program with an emphasis in Business.

http://jdedwards.unl.edu/

I tend to not hire CompSci or CompE students from this program because as entry level hires they have incredibly unrealistic expectations about their first job. They all want to transition to management right away before cutting their teeth on engineering design. So we tend to skip them over when we get resumes.

Sean

Re:Predicting short term failure and long term suc

[nxtr]

And Profit !

Perhaps this is the missing intermediate step in the underwear gnomes' formula?

Re:courage

[johncadengo]

Courage always helped me build the best bridges!

Coming from an AC, I guess courage is also the foundation your identity is built upon.

Re:Predicting short term failure and long term suc

[ILuvRamen]

It's just like programming. Every company is turbo-stupid in only taking interns and people with 5+ years of experience for any real programming job. So the fresh grads write their own software and a big company buys and and then they get hired.
I like engineering being like that too cuz then you get more inventions. It takes a company forever to invent something new with all the budgeting and paperwork and meetings and higher ups and blah blah blah. If engineers can't get hired, they just invent something and sell it and they do it waaaaaaaaay faster.

Few take engineering jobs

[Wansu]

  Few of the class of 2006 are going on to grad study in engineering or jobs in the field.

This is no surprise since engineering job opportunities for US citizens have been dwindling in 21st century.

Re:Few take engineering jobs

[RetiredMidn]

Few of the class of 2006 are going on to grad study in engineering or jobs in the field.

This may not be a bad thing. I would be a much happier engineer if there were more people in the marketing, sales, and product management roles who had a better background in engineering.

tuition-free?

[2Bits]

Someone please show me where on their web site it states that the education is tuition-free. All I can find is this: Cost and Financial Aid

You have to get the Olin Scholarship, which has the equivalent amount of the tuition. But it certainly does not say anyone admitted will be qualified. You certainly will have to go through the competitive qualification process, just like any other colleges?

If it's really tuition-free, I'll apply for a graduate engineering degree in a heart beat.

Re:tuition-free?

[lessthanjakejohn]

EVERY admitted student gets the full tuition Olin scholarship.

Re:tuition-free?

[VanWEric]

I'm one of the Olin Alumni (Class of '07).

Everyone who is admitted receives the scholarship. In fact, for 06 and 07s, room was included as well.

However, we do not offer graduate degrees. Olin is undergrad only.

Re:tuition-free?

[godofwar5000]

i applied there because it promised that i would pay no tuition. which is true in a sense. they "give" you $120,000 to cover the tuition. you still have to pay for room and board, books, and a computer, but the tuition is covered. they are also extremely selective. i was unable to get it because i didnt have Physics I or Calculus I coming out of high school.

Re:tuition-free?

[Bastard of Subhumani]

i applied there because it promised that i would pay no tuition. which is true in a sense. they "give" you $120,000 to cover the tuition. you still have to pay for room and board, books, and a computer

Sounds like it's not true in a sense as much as true; room, board and books are not tuition. Did you expect a pony too?

i was unable to get it because i didnt have Physics I or Calculus I

Given an example of your comprehension ability and writing style, I'm not sure that's what kept you out.

Re:tuition-free?

[godofwar5000]

i would have happily payed the 14k that they were asking for, i was just making the point that they make it seem like they are paying for everything. also, i was told, that because i didnt take Physics or Calculus in high school, that i would not even be put into consideration.

Re:courage

[Valar]

I think they probably mean the courage to try new things instead of sticking to the old tried and true methods. You know, like how progress gets made.

Former MIT faculty

[Ellen Spertus]

Several of the Olin faculty members are fantastic teachers who were denied tenure at MIT because (in my opinion) their devotion to teaching cut into their research, which is all that counts toward MIT tenure. (This includes my advisor, Lynn Stein.) I'd be proud to teach at Olin or to send my children (if I had any) there.

Re:Former MIT faculty

[jpmattia]

I was at MIT from 82 to 96 in various (mostly student) roles. I would say that this program merits a good look, simply based on the fact that they have one hell of a lineup on the faculty.

Re:Former MIT faculty

[belg4mit]

>which is all that counts toward MIT tenure
Besides being up to the department to decide where to place the emphasis, within the the limits of Institute policy,
this is an overly broad generalization. I only know of three tenure cases personally, and in at least one of them
teaching over research was most definitely not a problem. Nobody understands what the hell happened with the second,
and the third being the recent BE prof. is also a complex mess.

Disruption == Key

[DaftShadow]

One of the key ways that money is made is by disrupting the status quo. Take something that is good, and make it much better. Take something that is thought of as important, and replace it completely. Think of every great product that you know - the kind of products that changed everything how people live and work. The hammer, the wheel, the model-T, the plow, the longbow, the musket, the steam engine, the computer, automated mfg, the internet. Hell, even simple things, like the ipod. These creations have improved the possibilities of the human experience (except, maybe, the ipod ;). This is what Olin college is attempting to inspire.

Industry is floundering because it has stopped giving engineers and creative types the responsibility of actual creation. If we, as a society, wish to bring engineering and manufacturing back to our side of the world, we need colleges and programs like the ones that Olin is taking on. We need engineers who will develop & create beyond our expectations. This is important to the future success of America.

- DaftShadow

Re:Disruption == Key

[michaelmalak]

Regarding the Model T, for every Henry Ford we need a thousand assembly line workers. We would need a fundamental change in society to accommodate everyone being a Henry Ford. It would be good if we could change society in that way, and my point was that unless Olin is also teaching ways to transform society -- or at least interface with our dysfunctional society -- it is setting up its students for failure, or at least greater frustration than the rest of us.

Re:Disruption == Key

[DaftShadow]

If every engineer was a "Henry Ford", we could develop fully automated robotic production systems, on the cheap, that would completely do away with the need for line technicians. We would also be able to put huge amounts of brain power on challenges like solving cheap propulsion, cheap non-polluting energy, and full-bore space travel.

Making the claim that engineers need to be by-the-book, follow orders types, is quite disingenuous. They are like that right now, and look what is happening to our engineering/production/manufacturing industries!

The more engineers that we have who are smart, creative, entrepreneurial, and capable, the better off our entire society will be. Smart engineers can always learn to do 'dumb' engineering; it's a fair bit harder to go the other way.

- DaftShadow

Re:Disruption == Key

[bateleur]

There are two problems which exist in parallel.

Problem one is how best to train your smartest students.

Problem two is what happens to the line technicians when you automate their jobs. Because realistically they're not all going to be moving to research-level tasks. Most of them won't be anything like smart enough.

Re:Disruption == Key

[DaftShadow]

Problem two is what happens to the line technicians when you automate their jobs. Because realistically they're not all going to be moving to research-level tasks. Most of them won't be anything like smart enough.

A great point. I still don't have a complete answer to this yet, although I have some ideas that I can expand upon. I should note first that all the 'line technicians' in the USA account for only 2% of the job force. That being said, GEM consortium has research showing that entrepreneurial activity increases in areas of high unemployment, especially when there is a lot of other economic activity/wealth. Problem is the lag-time between unemployment and the eventual creation of new employment. This lag-time hurts, especially for those people who are unemployed.

I believe that we need to focus a lot of attention on retraining and cross-training of our blue-collar workforce. The economic benefits of whole-scale automation/robotics are obvious, but if these benefits arrive and 50% of our society is out of work or shifted to very low wage employment (conservative estimate, long term), consumer spending disappears pretty instantly and the whole balance shifts. So we need to put in place the capacities to help shift the vast majority of our workforce into the Services sector.

Second, I believe that we need to come up with a better way of sharing the profits of society. The gap between the haves and the have-nots is growing, and full-scale automation will only contribute to this. If we are unable to accomplish the workforce transition fairly quickly, and the economic gap shifts significantly enough, there will be mass resentment and quite probably insurrection. So we need to head this off by providing and preparing a fair system to keep the balance of society intact. With the possibilities of production capacity that a future society may hold, and the fact that the population is expected by many to begin leveling off, it seems quite likely that there is no reason an unemployed person 50-100 years from now cannot be as 'production-rich' as an average employed individual in today's society.

- DaftShadow

Re:Disruption == Key

[knewter]

Think you're falling prey to what Bryan Caplan calls the Make-Work bias (http://www.reason.com/news/show/122019.html). It's a few pages down, third heading. Anyway, the gist is that productivity isn't a zero-sum game. Better to have the robots doing the factory jobs, as it's thankless work with a high risk of injury. A good quote:

After technology throws people out of work, they have an incentive to find a new use for their talents. The Dallas Fed economist W. Michael Cox and the journalist Richard Alm illustrate this process in their 1999 book Myths of Rich and Poor, citing history's most striking example, the drastic decline in agricultural employment: "In 1800, it took nearly 95 of every 100 Americans to feed the country. In 1900, it took 40. Today, it takes just 3....The workers no longer needed on farms have been put to use providing new homes, furniture, clothing, computers, pharmaceuticals, appliances, medical assistance, movies, financial advice, video games, gourmet meals, and an almost dizzying array of other goods and services." DISCLAIMER: My dad runs a robotics engineering company. I was certainly raised to cheer when a machine could put thirty humans out of their job at the factory, because /everyone/ benefited (including those thirty) from reduced goods costs. Surely the localized discomfort of losing one's job is frustrating, but it's also important to realize when working for someone else that they have other concerns than you. If you're currently doing a job where a robot could realistically replace ten lower-pay employees, or three higher-pay employees, simply get out if this is a concern for you. That's the back of the napkin calculation that'll determine whether you're losing your job if your company's smart.

Re:Engineering Education

[Elbow Macaroni]

Yeah and they paid a lot of money for that education too. Colleges want people to know more and more filling everyone's head with lots of useless knowledge but what about the necessary knowledge? Do they do that?

Re:Engineering Education

[oxling]

Yes. I'm a sophomore (class of 2010) and my schedule would look familiar to any other engineering student. The courses mentioned in the article are in addition to other requirements you would expect, such as a slew of more specific engineering courses, math courses and science labs. All of the courses tend to be more project based, but we're still taught the right way to do things. I think the best example of how things are run is the Foundations of Business and Entrepreneurship class. Students form groups and launch their own businesses over the semester, but the professors also spend plenty of course time teaching accounting, how to write business plans, how to work with investors and so on. Many of the engineering courses work under a similar model.

Big Deal

[Kal42]

I went to my state school for engineering, and then stayed for my masters. It offered plenty of opportunities for creativity, and I added a business minor to accent the education. They can try all they want, but you can breed entrepreneurs. Your education is what you make of it. If it's an accredited engineering school, its still teaching all the same classes I took, so all they're doing is trying to force an entrepreneurial spirit on the kids. Good luck with that...I'll take my top 15 ranked engineering school at an in-state tuition. I'll make my own success, I don't need some professor trying to teach me how to be creative.

Re:A drop in a bucket ( a very empty bucket at tha

[what about]

You say

It hardly helps with the overall lack of new students majoring in those subjects at university in the first place

you also say

I tend to not hire CompSci or CompE students from this program because as entry level hires they have incredibly unrealistic expectations about their first job

To me it follows that what you want is cheap, submissive employees that just do what some "manager" told them

Really, why should somebody do engineering ?, do managment instead. You will know nothing about what you are managing (Dilber Principle) but at least you will be rewarded with a manager position and the associated money

True that

[Almahtar]

I just graduated in December and ran around applying at places for a while. I got some pretty decent job offers (73k + full medical, dental, vision, 18 days paid vacation + 7 paid holidays... etc), but in the end I ended up just working for myself. Bad idea? Probably. I have no business experience, just software engineering. Paying off in the short term? Not as much as one of those jobs would have. Sure, some of my clients are billing out at $75/hour, some at $65, some at $45, some at $30, but it's unpredictable who will need how much help when. However, for the first time in a long time I'm happy.

So I may be a long term failure or a long term success, who knows and who cares, but I have to say the freedom rocks. Can an engineer without much business sense make it with his own business? I guess I'll find out, but I like the fact that I'm at least trying. I can tuck my tail between my legs later if I have to. I get a strange feeling I won't have to.

Re:True that

[Hognoxious]

Sure, some of my clients are billing out at $75/hour, some at $65, some at $45, some at $30

Here's a bit of business advice - learn the difference between receivables and payables.

Re:True that

[Almahtar]

Good advice there. Yeah, it's also important to learn the difference between casual conversation (where you don't have to word everything correctly if people know what you mean anyway) and formal conversation (where technicalities are important).

Re:True that

[Hognoxious]

Casual conversation my arse, it was in writing on a public forum. Other advice would be to not use phrases you heard but don't know the meaning of - and not be such a twat when you do it and rightly get called. You were wrong - end of story. HTH.

Re:True that

[GeckoX]

Here's a bit of business advice: Don't be a dick. Potential customers don't like it.

You can be right, and you can be so right you're wrong.

Re:True that

[Almahtar]

Casual conversation my arse, it was in writing on a public forum. LOL - if you consider posting on /. a "formal" setting you are way too uptight, man.

Re:True that

[Hognoxious]

You think I consider mister I'm-paid-or-maybe-I'm-paying-or maybe-someone-else-is- paying-them-15-quid-an-hour a potential customer? Or you, for that matter? You can both go fuck each other.

Re:True that

[GeckoX]

Here's another freebie for you:

Everyone is a potential customer.

You were being a prick, you got called on it, suck it up and deal.

Re:fundamentals

[oxling]

All of those (including Biology) are required courses at Olin, actually.

Re:Predicting short term failure and long term suc

[psychicsword]

Humorous translation:
Step 1:Fail
Step 2:Start own company
Step 3:???
Step 4:Profit

Other schools are doing this too

[Cerlyn]

While I am not certain from this story what exactly Olin is doing, the general concept is not new. The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology's "ABET 2000" standard was intentionally designed to allow colleges to come up with programs similar to this. Instead of mandating you will must take "Calculus I, II, & III" like older ABET standards, much more finer requirements are required, which no mandate on which course provides the lecture. For example: I intended an ABET 2000 certified engineering program, and never had a dedicated course in statistics.

One example of another school using similar techniques is Rowan University's College of Engineering, which graduated their first engineering class in 2000. They base most of their Engineering Curriculum around a course called the "Engineering Clinic", where students work in small teams to generate real-world products and results. At the Junior & Senior levels, Rowan's clinic projects are usually sponsored by various companies, as well as local government agencies. The projects range from the mundane (build a flashlight) to the insane (conduct surveys and analyze the health of local major suspension bridges).

Unfortunately, it looks like Rowan's Engineering pages have been revamped by the central corporate webmasters, so there is no dedicated page for the clinic any more. But if you ever go there, Rowan's Engineering building (Rowan Hall) actually only has 6 dedicated classrooms - the rest of the 3 usable stories are all laboratory space.

(Note I am tad biased because I graduated from Rowan University's Engineering program. But if someone wants more information on it, feel free to reply with a message.)

Re:hmmm

[Almahtar]

It shows. Clearly you weren't studdying enuf. There, fixed that for ya.

learning to think differently

[david in brasil]

A couple of times a year, I pull up the following and read it, trying to realign my thinking process. I don't know who originally wrote it; I've had it for years. I apologize for the long post, but it's worth it. ++++++++++++++++++++ Some time ago I received a call from a colleague. He was about to give a student a zero for his answer to a physics question, while the student claimed a perfect score. The instructor and the student agreed to an impartial arbiter, and I was selected.I read the examination question: "SHOW HOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO DETERMINE THE HEIGHT OF A TALL BUILDING WITH THE AID OF A BAROMETER." The student had answered, "Take the barometer to the top of the building, attach a long rope to it,lower it to the street, and then bring it up, measuring the length of the rope. The length of the rope is the height of the building." The student really had a strong case for full credit since he had really answered the question completely and correctly! On the other hand, if full credit were given, it could well contribute to a high grade in his physics course and to certify competence in physics, but the answer did not confirm this. I suggested that the student have another try. I gave the student six minutes to answer the question with the warning that the answer should show some knowledge of physics. At the end of five minutes, he had not written anything. I asked if he wished to give up, but he said he had many answers to this problem; he was just thinking of the best one. I excused myself for interrupting him and asked him to please go on. In the next minute, he dashed off his answer which read: "Take the barometer to the top of the building and lean over the edge of the roof. Drop the barometer, timing its fall with a stopwatch.Then, using the formula x=0.5*a*t^^2, calculate the height of the building." At this point, I asked my colleague if he would give up. He conceded,and gave the student almost full credit. While leaving my colleague's office, I recalled that the student had said that he had other answers to the problem,so I asked him what they were. "Well," said the student, "there are many ways of getting the height of a tall building with the aid of a barometer. For example, you could take the barometer out on a sunny day and measure the height of the barometer, the length of its shadow, and the length of the shadow of the building,and by the use of simple proportion, determine the height of the building." "Fine," I said, "and others?" "Yes," said the student, "there is a very basic measurement method you will like. In this method, you take the barometer and begin to walk up the stairs. As you climb the stairs, you mark off the length of the barometer along the wall. You then count the number of marks, and this will give you the height of the building in barometer units." "A very direct method." "Of course. If you want a more sophisticated method, you can tie the barometer to the end of a string, swing it as a pendulum, and determine the value of g at the street level and at the top of the building. From the difference between the two values of g, the height of the building,in principle, can be calculated." "On this same tact, you could take the barometer to the top of the building,attach a long rope to it, lower it to just above the street, and then swing it as a pendulum. You could then calculate the height of the building by the period of the precession". "Finally," he concluded, "there are many other ways of solving the problem.Probably the best," he said, "is to take the barometer to the basement and knock on the superintendent's door. When the superintendent answers, you speak to him as follows: 'Mr. Superintendent, here is a fine barometer. If you will tell me the height of the building, I will give you this barometer." At this point, I asked the student if he really did not know the conventional answer to this question. He admitted that he did, but said that he was fed up with high school and college instructors trying to teach him how to think. The student was Neils Bohr.

Re:learning to think differently

[Afecks]

The student was Neils Bohr. Any relation to Niels Bohr? No, to be serious, that's just a legend and only recently have people started tacking Niels Bohr at the end, just to give the entire story a feeling of vindication.

http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/barometer.asp

Re:learning to think differently

[Bastard of Subhumani]

On the other hand one of the methods breaks the barometer, one of them runs a fair risk of doing so and one of them loses posession of it.

So if you asked the question to business or accounting majors, they'd probably ask who has financial responsibility for returning it safely to its rightful owner.

Re:learning to think differently

[yada21]

If you asked law students, they wouldn't even answer until you signed a 300 page dicalaimer ;-)

Re:learning to think differently

[DanielLee50]

Nice verification, gotta love that Internet.

I liked the story, I don't think it even needed a name attached to it to have value.

There was a time in high school art class where I refused to do a project because I did not feel that the teacher had a right to grade it using her opinion of what was or was not art or good art. She gave me an F which was enough to prevent my graduating. I ended up having to stay after school and do an art project where it was preagreed that it was not to be graded. I did graduate. Stubborn little shit I was.

Re:learning to think differently

[Stu22]

The question is how to use a barometer to measure the height of the building, not a barometer and a rope, not a barometer and a ruler, and not a barometer and a stopwatch. The superintendent one is the only successful answer.

Re:learning to think differently

[march]

Actually... The question is how to measure the height "WITH THE AID OF A BAROMETER". With "aid" being the operative word. All of the answers, even if they are not from Neils Bohr, satisfy that requirement.

Re:learning to think differently

[whereiswaldo]

I remember in grade 5 or so we were asked to complete a test which was supposed to indicate how gifted we were. There were pictures on each page and a series of questions below. At no time during the test did the questions state "based on the picture above" or "look at the picture above" so I completely ignored them. As a result the questions meant nothing and I did horribly. I realized later that the pictures were the source of the answers. Obvious to most, but to this day I take things very, very literally which is probably why I'm in software development and why I have a hard time understanding people or certain situations.

Re:learning to think differently

[Pacer]

For that matter, it doesn't say "with the aid of a barometer and a superintendent" either, but it doesn't say "with ONLY the aid of a barometer," so I'm going to give him a pass.

Re:learning to think differently

[DanielLee50]

"The point of school and college is to teach students how to think. The knowledge itself is arguably less than half the value of school".

I have never heard this put so clearly.

Somewhere around 3rd grade I did not want to go to school anymore as it was so boring. I was told I had to go. When I asked why I had to go the answer was "because". That did not work for me. I rebelled and had problems my entire time in the education system. If someone had just given me the answer above it would have helped tremendously.

I've known Olin Students for the Past Three Years

[CNothing]

And they are by far some of the most intelligent hands-on people I have ever met. Although I am in no way qualified to comment on their credentials and experience - I am a Junior at Babson College - most of the successful v.c./angel pitches that are done by groups of Babson students at any one of our yearly events events include students from Olin as part of the founding team.

Like I said, I am not qualified on their engineering talent. I do know that they only accept students who can demonstrate a committed dedication to engineering - from what I have heard, if you haven't built anything in your spare time you don't have a chance in hell of getting in. I also know that you can generally find a couple of Olin students at any one time testing one thing or another down by the lower athletic fields. To be honest, I was more under the impression that Olin's curriculum was more pragmatic than the Slashdot summery made out. Although Olin is dedicated to entrepreneurship, (Olin was started by a Babson alum with funds that originated with another Babson alum, on Babson's campus. Given that Babson is largely focused on entrepreneurship, this is pretty much a given.) their students all appear, at least, to have a solid grasp of mathematics, the sciences, and so on. They also haven't had any issues finding their graduates jobs over the past year. What all of this means - I don't know, I'm a Business major.

Re:Predicting short term failure and long term suc

[zotz]

"Or they can start their own companies right away and get short term success, maybe even long term success."

Not as engineers though right? I mean, engineers still need to work in the industry under a PE before they can sit for their PE license. (broad concept...) Well, I guess they could hire PEs and work under them while still being their boss in some way...

all the best,

drew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biOFnAlXrV8
UFO engineering there...

Re:courage

[b0s0z0ku]

Courage always helped me build the best bridges!

Well, it helped me tell someone higher up that the bridge he approved would collapse.

Re:Predicting short term failure and long term suc

[b0s0z0ku]

Well, I guess they could hire PEs and work under them while still being their boss in some way...

Yep, legal in all states to have a PE as one of the managing partners of the company and have non-PEs as the other managers. Not sure about just hiring PEs, but I'm sure that there are some who don't want to be arsed to deal with the business side of things, and would be perfectly happy as chief of engineering or something.

Besides, not all design work requires a PE. You just can't represent yourself as an engineer, work in fields that are legally controlled like building or highway design, or probably testify as an expert witness in court. This still leaves a lot of opportunity open.

-b.

Re:fundamentals

[Overzeetop]

Math, physics, and biology are not fundamentals of engineering. They are prerequisites. Olin may succeed if their graduates have all these extras along with a very sound technical course. Sadly, most colleges can't even graduate kids with all the technical they need. Many believe that a MS should be the minimum required, along with 4 years of experience, to be licensed as a Professional Engineer. (Which suggests that Olin, if they are suggesting engineers open their own firms immediately, care nothing about professional engineers - as you cannot get your PE right out of school) The body of knowledge for engineers has increased dramatically over the years, and in the practical engineering fields the body of knowledge is only the start of an education.

I'd suggest that Olin is for folks who are really business people who want to do something associated with engineering. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Re:fundamentals

[ErroneousFunk]

"Although this program seems to give the students warm and fuzzy feelings about engineering, it seems to miss out on the fundamentals of engineering itself. In order to know what is possible and why is grounded in know the basics of math, physics, chemistry, and (depending on the major) biology." I'm not going to list all the bio, physics, math, electronics, and engineering courses I've taken at Olin so far (as a sophomore), but when you say "warm and fuzzy feelings about engineering" I assume you're talking about our project-based courses. Rather than doing a page of physics problems a week, we look at a handful of open-ended, huge physics problems (Describe an orbiting satellite using Newton's law of gravitation.) and we come up with modeling equations, describe various implications of those equations, write computer simulations, analyze simulations, try simulations with a variety of scenarios (what if we want to steer our satellite? How can we make it stationary over the US?) build physical models (not of satellites perhaps, but there are plenty of problems we get that are great for model-building), write papers about our findings and do a formal presentation. We started with "this is a derivative" and ended the year with "this is a partial differential equation, we're going to show you some techniques to work with them, so you'll be prepared for PDEs when you take it in the next year or two." The electronics/systems class taught at the same time is equally amazing -- not for its "warm and fuzzy engineering" but for the fact that I learned SO FREAKING MUCH in such a short period of time while taking it. The NY Times article is crap; talk to some actual Olin students.

Re:Predicting short term failure and long term suc

[zotz]

"This still leaves a lot of opportunity open."

Sure. I wasn't hinting otherwise.

I graduated in 81 with a BS in ocean engineering. I sat for and obtained my Florida State Engineer Intern Certificate. (I seem to remember us calling it the EIT.)

I never did a lick of work in the field after that and ended up teaching myself what I needed to know to get by in the area of computers.

all the best,

drew

Depth

[ChrisMaple]

Engineering is difficult. A four year college education is just barely enough for an intelligent, hard-working student to learn enough in all the major areas of electrical engineering to not be a burden in his first year at work, unless his first job happily coincides with the areas he didn't miss. Time spent on humanities and foolishness like teamwork and courage training is time taken away from learning engineering skills.

Teamwork comes naturally and doen't have to be taught. On the job, your manager gives you part of a project to do and tells you who to talk with to interface with the rest of the project. That talking is where teamwork comes in; you get a glimpse of other portions of the project, and if you can see deficiencies in other places you discuss them (and vice-versa for others looking at your portion). No particular courage needed.

Re:Depth

[cdw38]

That type of thinking is foolish. I used to think the same way, but my eyes have only recently been opened. Eliminating humanities courses from an engineering curriculum basically eliminates creativity (in the broader sense). In order to develop a new product (or service or whatever), you have to understand people. Understand their needs, wants, desires - the way they interact socially, the way they spend money, why they spend money. You need to understand the general socio-economic trends that fuel these needs, wants, and desires. You aren't going to get any of that taking courses in microcontrollers or analog IC design. Kirchhoff's laws mean jackshit for that stuff.

So sure, if you want to always be just a meaningless pawn, fuck liberal arts courses. Take 4 EE courses every semester (also fuck your social life) and avoid being a burden your first year at work. Hell, you'll never be a burden to your managers and those above them (which you'll always have).

Not that I agree with exactly the methodology used by Olin (in fact, this hardly seems revolutionary), but it's a hell of a lot better than having a curriculum with no breadth outside of engineering.

Re:Depth

[servognome]

Teamwork comes naturally and doen't have to be taught. On the job, your manager gives you part of a project to do and tells you who to talk with to interface with the rest of the project. That talking is where teamwork comes in; you get a glimpse of other portions of the project, and if you can see deficiencies in other places you discuss them (and vice-versa for others looking at your portion). No particular courage needed.

Teamwork comes naturally, but you need experience. The biggest problem most fresh out of college workers have is they haven't had enough experiences in a team environment.

Teamwork isn't just about "lets hold hands and sing," the most important part of teamwork is handling conflict. Where new grads falter, is when they are in a meeting and somebody directly challenges them. Engineers are smart, they've probably gone through school and almost always been right; and in those situations where they have the wrong answer usually the teacher shows them what was incorrect. Rarely is a student in college put on the spot to defend their correct answer. In these situations its essential to have both a full understanding from a technical perspective, as well as the awareness of how to communicate and handle the social situation.

I've seen very intelligent engineers picked apart to the point of crying because they lacked the ability to clearly communicate and handle the social situation.

WPI started something similar in the 70's

[RetiredMidn]

Worcester Polytechnic Institute undertook a major restructuring of their undergraduate program in the early 70's, called "The WPI Plan", known on-campus as "The Plan". Broadly, the aim of The Plan was to produce engineers who were more aware of the impact of technology on society and vice versa. Key elements of The Plan when instituted:

A project-focused curriculum (I notice that project orientation was the first thing the NYT noted about Olin), including multi-term projects: a Major Qualifying Project in concentrating on your major and an Interactive Qualifying Project applying technology to human need.

A comprehensive examination in your major in lieu of narrowly-defined course requirements; a typical comp involved tackling a problem in your major area for a couple of days, submitting a solution, and facing a panel to defend your solution (and general competence in your major) orally.

A "humanities sufficiency" requirement that encouraged depth over a scattering of minimal course requirements.

A non-traditional grading system (Pass w/ Distinction, Pass, No Record) that encouraged risk-taking (and, unfortunately, over-subscribing to courses ;-) ).

As a transfer student, I was one of the last people who could choose to graduate under the traditional system, which I did because it took best advantage of my transferred credit. I did enjoy some of the benefits, including the ability to do an MQP-scale project for credit.

There were some initial problems and the Plan has been tweaked -- notably, some faculty observed that IQP's often took on a shallow variation on "an electronic crutch" -- but I found it a dynamic environment to learn in.

I've also had a chance to observe Olin from a distance (my daughter was recently an undergrad at Babson); only time will tell if the program is successful, but I welcome a new generation of mold-breakers who will think different (and differently).

Re:I've known Olin Students for the Past Three Yea

[robolemon]

Olin was started by a Babson alum with funds that originated with another Babson alum, on Babson's campus.

Actually, the funds came from the F. W. Olin Foundation, originally from funds left by Franklin W. Olin after his death. He got the money by starting the Olin Corporation which among other things owned Remington rifles and did a lot of chemical engineering. Olin himself was a Cornell graduate.

Correct:Predicting short term failure and long

[OldHawk777]

I agree, the present legacy S&D biz-model promotes trickle-down economics for intransigent Luddite-management that avoids innovation, risk ....

I think, this could be another element (like OSS, Open standards ...) used to structure a more enfranchising techno-equal global economic architecture that will gradually displace by (success or failure) meritocracy the present oligarchical feudal-serf corporate-economics/governance.

I can always hope.

Re:Correct:Predicting short term failure and long

[tehcyder]

I think, this could be another element (like OSS, Open standards ...) used to structure a more enfranchising techno-equal global economic architecture that will gradually displace by (success or failure) meritocracy the present oligarchical feudal-serf corporate-economics/governance.

If I could bear to read that sentence, I'd probably agree with you.

Re:I've known Olin Students for the Past Three Yea

[CNothing]

The idea for Olin College originated with the president of the F.W. Olin Foundation in the mid-90's, Lawrence W. Milas, who received his B.A. in Management from Babson College in 1958. Although Franklin W. Olin wasn't a Babson graduate, several members of the Olin family were (the Olin family, along with F.W. Olin foundation, has historically been one of Babson's largest donors).

Patience. Wait till 2009 or 2010 to evaluate

[bigpat]

Few of the class of 2006 are going on to grad study in engineering or jobs in the field. 2006? Good to keep tabs on graduates, but I think it will take more than a year to gauge the effectiveness of the program in serving its graduates. Maybe wait till 2009 or 2010 to evaluate the prospects of the Olin University Engineers.

I know the best and brightest are often encouraged to do stuff like Peace Corps after graduating. I wonder how many Olin Engineers are building bridges in developing countries and getting some hands on experience that way?

And graduating debt free means they aren't automatically enslaved 6 months after graduation... they can wait for marriage and a mortgage for that.

Re:Predicting short term failure and long term suc

[Xeo2]

Well, as a recent graduate of, I think I can safely call shenanigans on this post. It's definitely harder to get your foot in the door, but my classmates and I have all found we're more than well prepared enough when it comes to interviewing. Getting past the first hurdle of "I've never heard of this school" is much more difficult than actually getting a job. As far as "established" companies, I have friends working for Google, Raytheon, IDEO, Northop Grumman, Johnson&Johnson, iRobot, HP, and DEKA to name a few. There are also the ones in grad school at Stanford, Berkeley, Cornell, Columbia, Harvard and Oxford (again, to name a few).

Overall, I think we're doing ok for ourselves.

Re:College is more cost than gain now, on average

[belg4mit]

WTF are you smoking? There was no professional moving company involved. Students and alumni moved the cannon.
They just happened to have put in a modicum of effort to lend credence to their social engineering, while
working in a few subtle jokes. http://hacks.mit.edu/Hacks/by_year/2006/mitcannon/

For instance, the "moving company"'s name is "How & Ser." & is a ligature of et, latin for and. Read aloud,
How et Ser becomes Howitzer.

Re:A drop in a bucket ( a very empty bucket at tha

[ishmaelflood]

No, I think the point he was making was that to be an engineer you need to go through an apprenticeship, not jump straight into management type roles.

So he rightly said that when recruiting for engineering positions, he didn't tend to look at these schools.

By the way, when I started work as an engineer, it was as a Student Apprentice, and I did a lot of workshop, and assembly line, work, as part of it. I have the knuckles to prove it.

Only the humanities teach creativity?

[HornWumpus]

WTF are you smoking. Most humanities courses teach route repetition of the teachers views (they aren't called 'circle jerks' for nothing).

In Engineering courses you often create things that work (even if they are contrived). You learn the about the creative process as it applies to Engineers (trade offs, costs, scheduling etc etc).

Tell me again how learning to repeat the teachers opinions on literature, history etc etc are better at teaching creativity?

While we're at it explain how liberal arts education (typically completely devoid of non-remedial science or math) is well rounded while an Engineering education is not (though I took fully 30 units of liberal arts coursework, English, History, Econ).

I agree with the grandparent poster. Engineering is hard. There aren't enough hours in the school year. If you add more fluff courses something has to give.

Education should be lifelong. Most of the things you discuss are easily picked up by any interested Engineering program graduate.

All colleges must do like Olin

[technoextreme]

One example of another school using similar techniques is Rowan University [rowan.edu]'s College of Engineering [rowan.edu], which graduated their first engineering class in 2000. They base most of their Engineering Curriculum around a course called the "Engineering Clinic", where students work in small teams to generate real-world products and results. At the Junior & Senior levels, Rowan's clinic projects are usually sponsored by various companies, as well as local government agencies. The projects range from the mundane (build a flashlight) to the insane (conduct surveys and analyze the health of local major suspension bridges).

That's not really uncommon more than it is required for accreditation. I was talking to the dean of one of the engineering colleges at my school. His exact words were that they introduced the capstone before it became required for accreditation. So aparently everyone has a program similar to this because it's a required part of the curriculum.

Olin- a new kind of... what now?

[LunaML]

I toured there while looking for a place to do my undergrad. They only teach Mech-Eng, CE and EE. I'm a MatE by nature. I knew that at the time and didn't apply. Also their admission possess doesn't conclude until mid-May. That is a pain with other admissions schedules. I imagine it might be a good choice for a business major though.

Re:Olin- a new kind of... what now?

[dengineer]

Hey there,

I'm not sure when you visited Olin, but your post is inaccurate. I'm Class of '07, and I'm pretty sure that in the second or third year of the College's existence (i.e. the full Class of 2006 being enrolled) there was an option for a do-it-yourself style major (called "design your own" major).

For the record, the degrees we (Olin) are accredited for are: ECE (Electrical & Computer), ME, and E. Just to be technical, that last one isn't a 'General Engineering' degree but an 'Engineering' degree. The subtlety is beyond me. Given your stated interest in MatSci, I'd like to point out that at least three of my classmates graduated with E:Matsci degrees (that's Engineering with a concentration in Materials Science).

The admissions process does not conclude until May, though I believe it's earlier than May 15...I think the actual decisions are mailed around the 1st of May. As for why it takes that long, our admissions team spends a few months reading applications to narrow the pool down to 300 students or so (~75 will be admitted). Those 300 attend two "Candidates' weekends" where they are interviewed (in groups and individually), put into teams to create some kind of engineering project (tower - designed to be as tall as possible but collapse at 5lb of load, bridge - to combine span with load bearing, and aqueducts to move fluid), and given a chance to hang around campus and meet current students, faculty, and staff.

I'm also not sure why Olin would be a good choice for a Business Major. Not only is Olin more focused on entrepreneurship than on business (I personally think it should be a balance between the two), but the 'business' education opportunities at Olin mainly flow from classes taught jointly by Babson and Olin professors, or Babson courses. We wouldn't have needed a partnership with Babson for an M.S. in Technology Management (I believe that's the name) if we had adequate in-house business education.

Re:Olin- a new kind of... what now?

[joie1321]

Actually, May 1st is the deadline for accepting or denying admission to Olin. I think that it is a national deadline. Accepted students find out sometime in late March or Early April that they are accepted. These deadlines and dates are not so different from other schools. Though the application deadline is early this year (December 1st) and that is to give admissions more time and is probably related to our unusual admissions process. see for dates http://olin.edu/admission/applying_to_olin.asp and for comparison dates http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/deadlines/index.shtml

Well isn't that special...

[Stormy Dragon]

"Somebody who graduated from M.I.T. is probably a better formal engineer. They can probably recite better than I could. But I have other experience."

Yeah, and when your bridge is collapsing, 'other experience' isn't going to help hold it up.

Ford and Amish

[Hognoxious]

Everyone is a potential customer.

O RLY? Good luck on convincing Jack Daniels to orient their marketing towards Muslims.

You were being a prick, you got called on it

No I wasn't, you and your boyfriend were being pretentious knobends and you got called.