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Canadian Mint Claims Rights To Words "One Cent"

Posted by kdawson on from the nickling-and-diming dept.

knorthern knight writes "A weird intersection of copyright/trademark with politics is playing out in Canada. Short background: various Canadian cities and municipalities have launched a publicity/lobbying campaign seeking a fixed take from the GST (Goods and Services Tax, a national Canadian sales tax similar to European VAT). The amount sought is 1 cent for each dollar of the purchase price. This is summarized by the slogan 'One Cent of the GST NOW.' According to a press release, the Royal Canadian Mint (the federal agency that prints Canadian paper currency and stamps Canadian coins) has demanded from the City of Toronto $47,680 in royalties for use of the phrase 'one cent', and the image of the Canadian penny. $10,000 covers the use of the words 'one cent' in the campaign website address (www.onecentnow.ca) and email address (onecentnow@toronto.ca). An additional $10,000 is demanded for the use of these words in the campaign phone number (416-ONE-CENT). The remaining $27,680 covers the use of the image of the Canadian penny in printed materials such as pins and posters." Here's a National Post article on the brouhaha.

52 of 286 comments (clear)

  1. My two cents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oh shit...

    1. Re:My two cents by somersault · · Score: 4, Funny

      I hope 50 Cent doesn't try selling music in Canada, or he's screwed.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:My two cents by PinkPanther · · Score: 2, Informative

      I hope 50 Cent doesn't try selling music in Canada...

      When it comes to Canada, 50 Cent is already screwed

      --
      It's a simple matter of complex programming.
    3. Re:My two cents by trolltalk.com · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not a joke, but the mint will lose in court.

      1. There is NO copyright notice on ANY Canadian currency.
      2. Any copyright old enough to defeat a prior use claim will have expired
      3. Any copyright recent enough to be enforceable is defeated by prior use, not just in Canada, but other countries
      4. If they insist, we'll all just switch to Canadian Tire money. After all, eBay accepts it (Canadian Tire bought a bank - they're very heavy in the credit business).
      --
      Kevin Smith on Prince
    4. Re:My two cents by rs79 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      (This applies to Canada)

      You need to look up "official mark". Although handled through the trademark office an official mark has enhanced protection unter the law. Official marks can be granted for things you can't get a trademark for and the exact wording does not need to be registered. And this is a trademark issue that has nothing to do with copyright. The right to copy money falled under the criminal code. A case could be made for protection as an registered industrial design though.

      Having said that, according to the (govt) strategis database there are 123 hits for trademarks with "cent" in them.

      The questions are: is the likeness of the penny similar enough to warrent infringement. Courts so far seem to want things to be very very close. They could lose on that point. Is "one cent" protected? If it is it hasn't been enforced in the past, not that this matters a whole lot as far as an official mark is concerned.

      See
      1) http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/app/cipo/trademarks/search/tmSearch.do?language=eng

      2) 9(1)(n)(iii) of the Trade-marks Act

      This case could go either way. And they might or might not be reversed by a higher court. There is no federal court ruling on this and lower course have been inconsistant. It's a distractive strategy IMO to piss off the Toronto poeple.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    5. Re:My two cents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      50 Cent is known up there as 75 Cent

      You're about five years behind the times. These days, he's only about 49 cents

    6. Re:My two cents by evalhalla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) Under the Berne convention there is no need for copyright notices for works to be protected
      2) prior use / art applies to brevets, not to copyright
      3) as above
      4) well, that could work, but I don't see it as mattering in court

      I don't see the mint winning either, at least on the "one cent" phrase; they may have a point on the use of the image of the canadian penny, however.

    7. Re:My two cents by Run4yourlives · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Haven't been watching the currency markets lately have you?

    8. Re:My two cents by belmolis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Although there are 123 marks containing "cent", some of them are things like "nutracent", which does not contain the word "cent". Only one result comes up when I search for "one cent", and this is not actually a mark - it is an index term for a banknote design. In sum, I see no evidence that the mark "one cent" is owned by anyone, much less that "one cent" is an official mark of the Crown or of the Mint. Have I missed something?

      A second point is that registration of an official mark does not prevent the use of the same words in a generic sense, only as a competing mark. It is less than clear to me whether all of the uses to which "one cent" is being put in this campaign constitute use as marks.

  2. first we need to clarify by edittard · · Score: 4, Funny

    Is that one cent, or point zero one of a cent?

    --
    At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    1. Re:first we need to clarify by youthoftoday · · Score: 3, Funny

      Um, sir, can't you see they're the same thing? I see no problem there.

      --
      -1 not first post
  3. When will it end?! by Enoxice · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are some days I have to double check myself and make sure I'm not reading the Onion by mistake. Those days seem to be becoming larger in number.

    --
    Anyone else think the comments just weren't rendering right before they turned off ABP and saw ads?
    1. Re:When will it end?! by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 2, Funny
      Sorry, but I have trademarked the phrase 'Intellectual Property' for my new real estate firm which specializes in homes for professors. Please cease and desist usage on this forum.

      Sincerely

      Darl McBride

  4. Re:This is outrageous by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you think its bad, consider how much Curtis James Jackson III will end up paying ;)

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
  5. ummm by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I thought the Romans had the cent long before Canada.

    --
    The game.
    1. Re:ummm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      > I thought the Romans had the cent long before Canada.

      ummmm, no. They had the denarius. That's why British LSd money referred to their _penny_ as 1d -- d for denarius.

      And a _penny_ was not the same thing as a _cent_. There were 240 "old" pence in the pound.

      Those of us on {Dollars|Euros|Pesos|Rands|etc.}, and Cent(avo)s are using new fangled decimal money that came much later on.

    2. Re:ummm by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, but (odd bit of trivia), they did have the census, which measured someone's total wealth, and eventually morphed into Zins in German, their word for (bank) interest.

      --
      Apology to Ubuntu forum.
    3. Re:ummm by DarthVain · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think what they are referring to is that the Cent (I am guessing here) is probably based upon the Latin form for Centurion or Centurio (or however it is spelled), of which in a Roman Legion I believe had authority over about 100 soldiers, hence 100 Cents in a dollar or some such. Just as a Decurion (again not going to bother looking up real spelling), had authority over a squad of 10 (within the 100, etc..). While the Romans had military names for such things, Cent was probably just taken from the Latin for 100 things or some such.

    4. Re:ummm by Seraphim1982 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Fun fact of the day:

      A Roman Centurion who commanded a normal full-strength centuria generally had about 80 soldiers, not 100 as the name would suggest. The missing 20 men were non-combat servants or people with special skills.

    5. Re:ummm by DarthVain · · Score: 2, Informative

      This as nothing to do about "coins", other than that is the subject. (wow make sense of that sentence)

      Anyway this is about the Canadian Mint claiming copyright on the word "Cent". (Which as a Canadian I am embarrassed)

      I think the original post is eluding to the fact that the word "Cent" existed and has been in use long before the Canadian Mint came around (Nor is the Canadian Mint the only one to use it in Monetary terms).

      I can understand if a company wants to protect its brand name, as they may have spent a lot of money advertise that name and to promote their product over time, and if another is trying to profit off of that name. However the Canadian Mint's claim in my view is stupid. Is the USA (or whoever was first) going to try and sue us for using the word "Dollar". Not to mention that it is a government institution (corporate or not), makes this even more stupid (Particularly when targeting another branch of Government. Your all generally on the same team, play nice!).

  6. Parity with US$ has gone to their heads! by jcc · · Score: 5, Funny


    Loonies!

    1. Re:Parity with US$ has gone to their heads! by jonnythan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Uh..... Loons don't quack.

      I spend at least a week every year up on Squam Lake in New Hampshire. The place is riddled with loons. I hear them make all manner of spooky-ass sounds, but I've never heard one quack.

      They're not ducks. They're not even in the same order. They don't even look like ducks. Look at their bills.

  7. this could happen.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    ..only in America.

    1. Re:this could happen.. by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Technically, America is *two* continents. :-)

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
  8. Simple to fix... by renesch · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... change the tax to 'two cents', and forward all complaints to the 'Royal Canadian Mint'

    1. Re:Simple to fix... by DeepHurtn! · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, you misunderstand. The tax is already at 6%. The cities have long complained that they do not receive enough support from the federal government for infrastructure costs, so this publicity campaign is trying to put pressure on the federal gov't to dedicate part of the GST (1/6th of it) directly to the cities. Right now Ottawa gives money to the municipalities mostly on an ad hoc basis, whereas a cut of the GST would give cities a steady and dependable stream of income that would make it easier to invest in long-term infrastructure projects (Vancouver's Evergreen Skytrain line, I'm looking at you!).

  9. If they get through with this .... by aix+tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    .... Toronto should pay. .... In cash. .... In pennies.

    1. Re:If they get through with this .... by tgd · · Score: 4, Funny

      That makes a lot of cents.

    2. Re:If they get through with this .... by rustalot42684 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nope. You can't use more than 26 pennies in a single purchase. It's the LAW here.

    3. Re:If they get through with this .... by jeffasselin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, you can try, but no agency or store is forced to accept.

      --
      If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
    4. Re:If they get through with this .... by GeckoX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Close. If the seller will accept it you can pay with whatever you want. But the seller can refuse more than 26 pennies if they like. It's not illegal to show up with more though, you just take your chance of being refused service.

      --
      No Comment.
  10. Re:Southern Inspiration by Jaxoreth · · Score: 4, Funny

    Canadians can't stand for this. We have to stamp the crazy out now
    Why? Is it replacing the loony?
    --
    In general, it is safe and legal to kill your children. -- POSIX Programmer's Guide
  11. Yeah, that would show them by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is the mint, they deal with TONS of cents EACH AND EVERY DAY, you think 4.768.000 coins is going to scare them? They got machines for that. Oh and processing fees.

    If you have any kind of a decent bank, they just take your old jar of coins, empty it in a machine and a little later they got a nice total and the money sorted. if your bank charges you for this, you know you got a bad bank. Granted, it is getting harder to find a good bank, in my youth banks went out of their way to advertise bank accounts to small kids, allowing them to save coins and then deposit them in a savings account. Their way of getting future business I guess. Today if you show up with a ton of cash to put into their accounts so they can make amazing profits on it, they charge you a deposit fee. Ah progress.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Yeah, that would show them by aix+tom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think 21.646 tons of cash would scare them if they get it on one load at the same time.

      That's would be about 542 trucks if you use 40 tonners. The traffic jam alone would be impressive. ;-)

    2. Re:Yeah, that would show them by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You can't just pay in pennies.

      Amounts that are considered legal tender in Canada (which means they can't be refused):

      1. up to 25 pennies
      2. 1 dollar in nickels
      3. to dollars in dimes
      4. 40 quarters
      5. 20 dollars in loonies ($1 coin)
      6. 40 dollars in toonies *$2 coin)

      So no, they're not obligated to take a ton of pennies.

    3. Re:Yeah, that would show them by john83 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'd be more inclined to drop it to them from a great height.

      --
      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
  12. "One Cent" by kaszeta · · Score: 3, Informative
    I'm a little surprised that they assert that "one cent" is their phrase, since, unlike US coinage, they actually use numeric denominations on their coins. The Canadian penny actually says "1 cent" on it.

    Maybe the US Mint should insist they get paid instead...

    Oh, and the Royal Canadian Mint isn't a "Federal Agency". It's a Crown Corporation (status similar to the US Post Office).

    1. Re:"One Cent" by Ctrl-Z · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No.

      Although, as mentioned, the Royal Canadian Mint is a Crown corporation, not a government agency.

      --
      www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
    2. Re:"One Cent" by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Informative

      But they aren't claiming copyright, they're claiming trademark. And if you don't defend your trademark you lose it. So if they indeed to have it trademarked, and the government should be able to trademark certain things, so that not just anyone can set up shop and call themselves the department of defense, or something like that, then they have to protect the trademark, or they risk losing it.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:"One Cent" by jdgeorge · · Score: 2, Funny

      True enough. USA pennies have used the phrase "ONE CENT" for more than one hundred years. If Canada's mint wants to claim "ONE CENT" as their trademark, they'll have to duke it out at the highest court in the land.

      Take that, strong Canadian dollar!

  13. trademarks of common vocabulary by e**(i+pi)-1 · · Score: 3, Informative
    This fits well into other cases, where one has attempted to trademark common vocabulary:
    • "You have mail" AOL
    • "Hall of Fame" National Baseball Hall of Fame
    • "Entrepreneur" Entreprenour Media
    • "Windows" Microsoft (ruled generic 1993)
    • "Memory game" Ravensburger (a website I maintain was involved in that once)
    Tradmarking common vocabulary is as questionable as patenting common tasks. The problem is that it is often cheaper to pay off than go through a legal fight. And that encourages the litigators. The good thing is that such battles usually are PR desasters for the companies involved.
  14. Read the article first, it is not the phrase... by TomTraynor · · Score: 2, Informative
    It is not the phrase, it is the image of the penny itself. To quote the first sentence

    Demands from the Royal Canadian Mint that the city of Toronto pay for using pictures of a penny in its "One Cent" campaign
    It is only fair, if someone uses an image that you created wouldn't you want to control how it is used and get compensated for the use of your image?
    --
    Panic now, beat the rush!
  15. AHA! Aboot time! by db32 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Take that you smug little bastards! You sit up there all pointing and laughing at how insane the IP system has gotten in the US... HAH! Welcome to the new world, not so smug now eh? One Cent...holy crap... And its not even some profit mongering megacorp up there, its your freakin federal agency suing the city. On top of that the irony involved in the fact that the whole thing is about trying to get 'one cent' out of the tax, and the government response is to charge them for asking for it! Aaaahahahahahaa. Now maybe you won't be so damned smug when stupid shit happens here down south of you.

    --
    The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
  16. "A penny for your thoughts"... by PontifexPrimus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "A penny for your thoughts", quite literally. What's with this obsession with "intellectual property"? I have thought of many, many things. I have used these thoughts to create physical objects from raw maerials, to compose texts, to extend these notions and to combine them, to create new, previously un-thought thoughts. And it never occurred to me that I should pay the people that inspired those mental processes, nor did it occur to me to ask for remuneration for those thoughts I in turn shared with my environment. How can anyone claim ownership of a phrase, a collection of words, a simple idea like this and ask for rent?
    This is getting more and more absurd. If you can let people get away with the claim that they "own" the words "one cent", where can we expect them to stop? Is there any reason they could not claim that the word "one", as an essential part of that phrase, is also their property? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I'd really like to hear an argument that could apply to "one cent" but not to "one".

    --
    -- Language is a virus from outer space.
  17. Re:Southern Inspiration by dreamchaser · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The US certainly has a huge number of problems, but it still amazes me that not one thread can go by here without someone karma whoring by inserting a veiled or not so veiled reference that says 'It must be the United State's fault'.

    The US Mint has never done anything at all similar. Private companies have, but those are not a Government entity. Let's keep on topic and focus on Canada for once, ok?

  18. Government can claim copyright too? by noidentity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So governments can claim copyrights, trademarks, and get patents? I thought the point of these was for commercial enterprises in the market, which the government is not in (since it can grant itself a monopoly on anything it wants). What's their justification, that without the protection of copyright they wouldn't be able to make a profit...er... they already get taxes by law. They wouldn't be able to finance projects like coining (ha) the phrase "one cent"? I just don't get it.

  19. RCM != Paper Money by alexburke · · Score: 5, Informative

    the Royal Canadian Mint (the federal agency that prints Canadian paper currency and stamps Canadian coins)


    Nope. The Royal Canadian Mint stamps coins only. The Bank of Canada is responsible for paper money, the actual printing of which is performed by Canadian Bank Note Company, Limited and BA International Inc (formerly British American Banknote).
  20. obligatory rocky and bullwinkle by farker+haiku · · Score: 2, Funny

    Thanks Bullwinkle, a ruble for your troubles!

    No! Not one red cent!

    --
    Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
  21. Seriously by mdigiac1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am embarrassed to be Canadian. Clearly this is the first of many stupid things to happen. Next Up: Canadian Election. Do I vote for tweedle Dee or tweedle Dumb.

    --
    Windows on a mac is Windows under Supervision. - Frank Soltis(Chief Scientist/Designer of AS400)
  22. Re:No, it's one PER cent by Tridus · · Score: 2, Informative

    The tax in question (the GST) already exists as a 6% (formerly 7%) sales tax, all the money goes to the Federal Government.

    The goal of the campaign is to take 1/6th of the revenue from the tax and give it to Municipal governments. So they don't want a new tax, they want to shift what the existing tax pays for.

    --
    -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
  23. Decimal commas versus decimal points by hummassa · · Score: 2, Informative

    Using the USofAn/English style decimal POINTS:

    21,646 ton / 4,678,000 coins =
    21,646,000 kg / 4,678,000 coins
    ~~ 4.627 kg / coin

    (which would be a quite heavy penny IMHO)

    I suspect each Canadian penny weights 4.627 _g_ per coin, so it would be
    21.646 ton (21646 kg) per 4678000, ie, _ONE_ 40-tonner truck half-full of pennies.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
  24. Re:silly canadians by moderatorrater · · Score: 2, Funny

    Then some dumbass politian sues GOD, Do you actually realize how much shit that guy's responsible for?