Slashdot Mirror
Phone Companies Refuse to Give Congress Data on Spy Program
JohNNy1+4 writes "Several US telephone communications firms are refusing to answer the questions of a congressional panel about spying on American citizens. The panel is making an inquiry into Bush administration tactics in the years since 2001, but has been stymied by the administration's claim that releasing that information would be illegal. As a result Verizon, AT&T, and Qwest have declined to answer the panel's queries. '"Our company essentially finds itself caught in the middle of an oversight dispute between the Congress and the executive relating to government surveillance activities," AT&T Inc. General Counsel Wayne Watts said in a letter to the House Energy and Commerce Committee that was released today by the panel.'"
I was just following orders!
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
If a congressional panel doesn't legally have jurisdiction on a matter like this, then companies can't be expected to legally comply. If Congress wants oversight -- and why shouldn't it have this oversight? -- they should legislate it as such. They have the power to legislate, and they should use it.
[ think ]
Isn't the US Constitution clear on the point of oversight, giving Congress the ability to investigate and even remove the president, but not the other way around?
Or is the US truly near its nadir and soon "el Presidente" will be running everything, unopposed.
Anyone else find it amusing that they'll give information on everyone else to the government, but not themselves? That game me a little, sad, chuckle
There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
Since when is it up to a subpoenaed third-party to make claims regarding oversight between branches of government? Find the fuckers in contempt of congress, and stop dragging this shit out already. We'll see how quick they start talking as they're frog-marched out by the Sergeant at Arms.
Stop and delay, stop and delay, eh, fellas?
The American government no longer matters. Welcome back to the Fuedal ages everyone! CEO's and boards are the land owners, lawyers are the knights. Get back to work you serfs.
Our lawyers are pretty sure we broke the law and complied with an illegal order. But they're also pretty sure that Congress doesn't have the balls to confront the White House about this. So, complain all you want, but we'll being skiing in hell before we testify before Congress about this.
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
Oh sure, now they stand up to a request from the government and refuse to fulfill it on the grounds that it would be "illegal". Maybe they should have given that response to the NSA instead of saving it for Congress.
The whole premise of this article is wrong.
The program REQUIRES that they go to court if an American is involved. Just because "I read this on 'so-and-so' website", doesn't make those "they're spying on Americans without court orders" true. If you're buying into that, you're an idiot for being a sheep not finding out the facts for yourself. Reminds me of people that go on protests organized by "ANSWER", but don't know who "ANSWER" really is. Useful idiots.
Arrest their CEOs for contempt. When the VPs fail to provide the data, arrest them too. Work on down the line.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
What is the purpose of pointing this out? Two wrongs to NOT make a right and if you do not hold someone accountable now, then when do you plan on doing it? I am SO sick of people calling out previous administrations for their illegal activities and using it as an excuse for the current administration. It just isn't logically acceptable.
1) There is a problem now, we know what it is.
2) We know how we can stop this problem.
3) We use the resources available to us to fix the problem.
I see no where in that logical step anything about looking for precedent. Am I wrong on something here or what?
Why yes I raped you, but telling that to the jury would just violate your privacy, so I won't. Ain't I a nice guy.
These companies violated the law, and now claim that confessing to that, violates the law?
I shot you in the head, but I won't take you to the hospital in a car because well, I don't have a driving license and I don't want to break the law.
The sooner this US goverment is taken down and replaced the better. I guess it is clear how republicans think, screw a girl IMPEACH, screw the nation, you are a hero!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Very simple....
Seems to me that if the law doesn't allow congress to pull their corperate charter for this, then the law needs to be fixed.
Loss of limited liability would either sink them or change their tune right quick.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
If the story is to be believed, the aides in question were not part of the federal government's spy agencies. There's quite a bit of difference between two dorks recording whatever cell communications float into range of their receiver and the CIA/FBI/NSA strong-arming the phone companies to let them listen in on every call, text-message, email, chat, etc... that happens in America.
Also, keep in mind that beyond whether the Bush administrations actions were legal, Congress is currently drafting a law which will delimit the scope and breadth of the CIA/NSA/FBI's powers to spy on communication that travels through American telephone providers. In order to make a sensible law, they need a full understanding of what wiretapping has occurred, what results it has achieved, and how the existing laws have been interpreted by the current agencies.
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
"If AT&T has nothing to hide, it has nothing to fear!"
Best. Touché. Ever.
Mod parent insightful, please!
The infamous "Clinton did it!" defense. In record time, too!
That they ignored the request of the Congress (the will of the people) and instead chose to hide behind the president and so called state secrets. Shame on them and their disrespect for our Republic. They apparently believe that the president will protect them from punishment for their criminal acts. Congress establishes the laws in this country and as representatives of the American people they have every right to make sure the laws are carried out as intended. What is it that the executive branch and these companies are up to that they are so scared of revealing to Congress? According to our president only the terrorists have something to hide from the government so by extension does hiding information from Congress make the president and these companies terrorists?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
The Phone Companies are letting the government use their equipment to spy on Americans. In Return they mega corporations will get support from certain members of congress and the executive for supposed "Pro Business" regulations. These "regulations" will cement these corporations and give them government supported monopolies and allow the Telecoms to govern and regulate themselves. In Essence, they have entered into an unholy alliance with the US government. Greed is enabling, Power is corupting. You are witnessing the Rise of Pure Fascism in the US.
The Democrats are hardly innocents, either. St Hillary was Democratic counsel to the Watergate Hearings when they tried to oust Nixon and was so fired up on getting an impeachment rammed through she couldn't see straight. Strange that when Bill came under the gun for perjury she was the first to cry 'Witch hunt'.
While I have no problems with politicians indulging in extramarital sex while in office, I do have a problem when they commit perjury about it. Perjury is a felony, plain and simple. Bill was under oath both times. He lied once. For perjury, once is enough. The impeachment trial was a sham, everybody knew the vote would come down along party lines, politics overriding the issue, which made any possible impeachment of Bush for unconstitutional powergrabs out of the question, the spin being 'We went after your boy, you're just wanting revenge'. A shocking display of American politics at its worst.
What I'd love to see, and I know it's just wishful thinking, is a few real candidates for this goaround. Ain't gonna happen, though. Real candidates haven't won an election since Ike.
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Since when is it up to a subpoenaed third-party to make claims regarding oversight between branches of government?
The Telcos are relaying the message from the Justice department. A better question: how can the State Secrets Privilege apply against Congress, a branch of the state?
The clever thing for the Telcos to do might be to try getting the Congress' questions in written form, along with the instruction from the Judiciary to shut up, then provide the answers in sealed escrow to the Judiciary, to hand over or not as appropriate. That way, they can get out of the way of the impending constitutional slugfest, and let the real partisans brawl it out. The Telcos just want to be left alone to make some dough.
Of course, that's not so much a tactic of law as of politics. But hey, there's not much difference.
As for Congress, aside from hinting that the above approach might be acceptable, I don't see there's anything clever or subtle left to try. I'd say it's long past time for the old Inherent Contempt rules to be dragged out.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Okay, I read it, and sweet christ - are you serious? You're pitting an alleged incident against one we know to have occurred? How much does one make Trolling for Dollars these days?
"While wiretapping is wrong. Both sides have done it."
When first I read "both sides" I thought there'd be an interesting link on Congressional wiretaps. This is, after all, on its face a conflict between the federal executive and Congress, so that is naturally the dichotomy that came to my mind when I read "both sides."
I'm saddened by the realization that I am probably part of a slim minority that did not reflexively break this down into a partisan issue.
Congress can file contempt charges against the telcos refusing formal requests, but those contempt charges have to be prosecuted by the Attorney General. Who is, of course, in Bush's pocket, chosen to protect illegal programs exactly like the one these telcos helped Bush violate. We don't even have an actual AG right now, but whoever is in the job will run interference against justice - obstruction of justice, but the bureaucratic kind that's even harder to get the Department of Justice to prosecute.
That logjam is one reason why Congress should have impeached Gonzales, the illegal wiretapping program's primary defender. Trying his impeachment would have given Congress power to force the telcos to turn over the evidence, without relying on the Justice Department whose head was on trial. In fact, it's still not too late to try Gonzales, even though he's out of office, as there is clear precedent in US law. William Belknap was impeached after he resigned (like Nixon, he resigned to escape impeachment).
Or, better yet, cut off the snake's head: impeach Cheney. Or cut out its forked tongue: impeach Bush.
Or leave it all to politics as usual, and leave the telcos and the next government with these same abusive powers. And watch the country continue to go down the drain, sacrificing both wealth and freedom on the altar to fruitless imperial power.
--
make install -not war
Firstly, you're insane or ignorant if you think the Watergate Hearings were some sort of witch hunt. I suggest you read some transcripts of the Nixon archive tapes before regurgitating that BS. Nixon decided to leave office when his OWN PARTY told him the game was over. I wish he still would have been criminally prosecuted for his REAL abuses of the Constitution.
Secondly, steering a Senate investigation into a President's extramarital affair is damned straight a witch hunt, especially in the context of the "Arkansas Group" and the BS Troopergate story. And, the Clinton impeachment vote wasn't along party lines. Even some Republicans weren't stupid enough to vote for it.
Third, Clinton didn't perjure himself. Go research the Clinton perjury myth.
But thanks for rehashing the same uninformed myths about our political history that reveal the widespread ignorance that gets us into debacles like Iraq.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Both sides of WHAT, exactly? Both sides of THE SAME SIDE? We haven't had a reasonable of the people, for the people, by the people government since the assassination of John F. Kennedy. I'd say it goes back even farther, to the creation of the Federal Reserve, and since we have had a standing army. But of course, to stick with ideals isn't realistic, right? We're SUPPOSED to allow a monstrous war criminal executive to impose it's will across the other two branches and lie to the American public without any repercussions.
It's almost as if the schools haven't been teaching anything, and nobody here has read the constitution.
Both parties are owned lock, stock, and barrel by corporations anyway, so arguing the "both sides" thing is a horrendous straw man. I don't think "both sides" of Dow and Exxon give two shits about the liberty of the American citizenry, the safety of our constitutional democracy, or the longevity of this country without a violent bloody revolution. I feel they assume that Fox news can blather more lies and the people will just continue taking Zoloft and buy it.
History has proven these theories wrong already though, and there are PLENTY of examples from the past besides Rome. If you (like me) were not informed about them in public school, maybe you should get yourself to the Library on your own time, and READ for a second.
I'll wait here, screaming in the vacuum with my +1 nobody gives a shit.
rhY
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.