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First Details of Windows 7 Emerge

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the scantilly-clad-screenshots dept.

Some small but significant details of the next major release of Windows have emerged via a presentation at the University of Illinois by Microsoft engineer Eric Traut. His presentation focuses on an internal project called "MinWin," designed to optimize the Windows kernel to a minimum footprint, and for which will be the basis for the Windows 7 kernel.

45 of 615 comments (clear)

  1. Rinse, Repeat by orkysoft · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So Microsoft tells something about the next version of Windows not long after the people have noticed that their current version isn't all that it's made up to be?

    --

    I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    1. Re:Rinse, Repeat by ozmanjusri · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Why is this modded troll?

      Microsoft are the kings of targeted vapourware.

      They spent most of the '90s poisoning the well for their competitors with this tactic. What makes you think they're not doing the same thing again?

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  2. Size matters by Skiron · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Windows kernel to a minimum footprint"

    It depends if you have size 24" feet (MS) or 8" feet like real normal OS's. No matter how big the foot, you can only reduce your footprint to the smallest size of the foot.

    So that, as far as I am concerned, is a nebulous comment intended to fool the press and others that still believe every MS 'press release' they spew out.

  3. Lesson in MS Counting by Prien715 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Apparently it goes:

    2, 3, 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7!

    No wonder kids have so much trouble at math....

    --
    -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    1. Re:Lesson in MS Counting by truthsearch · · Score: 5, Funny

      3 = 3 9x = 4 2k/xp = 5 vista = 6 7 = 7

      Nuff said.

      No, not really. That equation actually makes sense to you? Are you one of the Microsoft Excel developers?

      --
      Developers: We can use your help.
    2. Re:Lesson in MS Counting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, the proper lineage is:
      Windows NT 4, Windows 2000 (NT 5), Windows XP (NT 5.1), Vista (NT 6), 'Windows 7' (NT 7)

    3. Re:Lesson in MS Counting by jkrise · · Score: 5, Funny

      2, 3, 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7

      Oh... it's worse in Excel 2007;

      65533, 65534, 65535, 100000, 100000, 65538, 65539.. and so on!

      Maybe there's some nice pattern too?

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    4. Re:Lesson in MS Counting by magus_melchior · · Score: 4, Funny

      Apologies to fans of a certain British comedy group...

      "Me shalt thou not count, neither count thou 2, excepting that thou then proceed to 7. Vista is RIGHT OUT!"

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    5. Re:Lesson in MS Counting by suv4x4 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Apparently it goes:

      2, 3, 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7!

      I'm more curious what will Apple name their next major release, if ever.

      OSX, OSXI, OSXII, OSXIV...?

      Of course, once they reach 10.9, they have the option of pissing in the face of basic number representation and call the next version 10.10, then 10.11 ...

    6. Re:Lesson in MS Counting by hyeh · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually there are 2 Windows lines...

      MS-DOS Based
      1.x, 2.x (Windows/286, Windows/386), 3.x, 4.0 (95), 4.1 (98), 4.9 (Me)

      NT Based
      3.1, 3.5, 4.0, 5.0 (2000), 5.1 (XP), 6.0 (Vista), 7

    7. Re:Lesson in MS Counting by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Informative

      No! The Win9x line is dead. 2000, XP, 2003, and Vista are the Windows NT line.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    8. Re:Lesson in MS Counting by Daimanta · · Score: 4, Funny

      3 = 3 9x = 4 2k/xp = 5 vista = 6 7 = 7 9x = 4
      x = 4/9

      2k/xp = 5

      k = 1000

      2000 / xp = 5
      x = 4/9

      4500p = 5

      p = 1/900

      Windows == Solved!

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
  4. Good intentions by _merlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm sure Microsoft developers have good intentions and big dreams for Windows 7. I'm sure they did for Vista at the beginning of the project. But they'll have to cut corners, meet dates, add legacy support, and all the things a behemoth like Microsoft always thinks they have to do. For all their failings, you've gotta give Apple credit for having guts to change things - the Mac has gone through three CPU architectures, and two completely different operating system kernels.

    1. Re:Good intentions by mblase · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But they'll have to cut corners, meet dates, add legacy support, and all the things a behemoth like Microsoft always thinks they have to do.
      Legacy support is important to many business Windows customers; some of them are still using 16-years-old custom software that needs to run on whatever desktop OS their employees are running.
    2. Re:Good intentions by dhasenan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you can't handle it, port the application to a more recent version of Windows.

      If the application is sixteen years old, it should have system requirements that would be considered trivial by today's standards, so virtualization or emulation shouldn't cause as much of a performance hit. Instead, the application would perform as if it had been written today.

    3. Re:Good intentions by Kris_J · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, VMs can reduce overhead for IT. For each legacy app, build a VM image and then just deploy that image to any of the PCs that needs it. Much more reliable than trying to run it directly through some dodgy legacy support.

  5. I wonder... by larry+bagina · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I can't help but wonder if this is a reaction to OS X being used on iPhone and iTouch(mySelf). Maybe they're trying to consolidate windows/windows CE. Or maybe this is just another feature that will be cut in favor of demanding a DNA sample before allowing you to access the internet.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  6. Seems to coincide with patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This seems to coincide directly with some recent patents filed by Microsoft. It seems what they're truly after is an al-la-carte style OS where DRM is used to control the subscription of such "base OS" additions. Read more on the patent here, http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220060282899%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20060282899&RS=DN/20060282899

    Basically, you purchase the base-system and tack-on additional subscription based modules. My concerns are how the subscription model will function, the subscription pricing, and the potential for removal of prior features such as 3D acceleration on the 'base' system.

    It also appears that DRM will be used extensively in this model and will not be solely limited to music/video as previously thought.

    Honesty, and I'm not trolling here, but this looks pretty scary. This reminds me of driver-signing gone awry. I don't see the potential for open-source/free modules due to item #3. Arbitrary application, memory, CPU, and process limits are also concerning.

    The whole "add-on" 3D support as well as "don't limit my desktop to 5 open applications/processes" seems incredible. I imagine the base system will be usable to about 3% of the population and the subscription-based add-on modules may be pricey. I can't imagine a DRM style approach for 3D gaming/enthusiasts being acceptable. Imagine having to pay $20/mo for 3D + multiple core CPU + 2G RAM and the minute you stop paying all those modules expire and are no longer active until you resume payment; like Napster and other DRM based music models work.

    -evilghost

  7. Call me in 2012..... by edwardpickman · · Score: 4, Funny

    when its at least in beta.

    1. Re:Call me in 2012..... by istartedi · · Score: 4, Funny

      No thanks, I'll be waiting for Hurd to be production-ready.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  8. This time will be different! by Wylfing · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's going to have a database file system! It's going to be secure! No more rebooting! It will have a really good command line!

    --
    Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
  9. So what? by foo+fighter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The kernel hasn't been Windows's problem since NT 4.

    The real problem is the middle-management clusterfuck. The direct result of which is the bizarro world of Windows the platform and its zillion libraries and APIs that have subtle (and not so subtle, but probably undocumented) incompatibilities.

    Microsoft's own devs can't figure that shit out and they've been trying since XP. It has only become worse since they shoved all the digital restrictions management into the system.

    --
    obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
  10. ah! just in time by boxlight · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ah! news of a new version of windows -- just in time for the release of Leopard.


    looks like Mistersoftie is up to their old hype the vaporware tricks to dissuade buyers from going with attractive alternatives.

  11. Re:that sounds good but.. by falcon5768 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of Apples biggest wins with controlling the hardware AND the software is this very fact... they have phased out legacy equipment and software every so many years.

    --

    "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

  12. Windows 7 preview by Kurt+Gray · · Score: 5, Funny

    You turn on the computer. You are greeted by an angelic chime that gets progressively louder until your speakers shake. You attempt to adjust the volume but it only gets louder still. A full screen Window icon ripples across the screen then all goes black. The product activation screen prompts you to enter your activation keys, printed on 27 pages of holographic alloy glue to the inside of the aluminum DVD case. For the next 3 hours you enter the activation key, taking breaks to use the bathroom, eat, and make phone calls.

    After entering the correct activation keys, a dialog appears prompting you to select your social login profile group. You have no idea what that is so you click "Other Networks" The next dialog says "Connecting to networks..." for the next 5 minutes. A message apears saying "New Hardware Found" but it can't find the driver. Another popup appears "No networks found". Then your desktop appears. The wallpaper is stunning. The Internet Explorer icon appears to majestically float above the screen. You click it. A message appears warning you that the Internet can harm your computer, do you want to continue? You click "Yes". You are prompted to enter your administrator key. This key is on the sticker on the inside of your PC case. You shutdown the PC, get a screwdriver, open the case, write down the 18 digit administrator code, put the case back together and reboot.

    After rebooting, blocking your ears during the chime assault, and oggling the amazing wallpaper, ignoring the "live folders server not found" error, you try Internet Explorer again. You dutifully enter the administrator key. You are asked if you want to save this key to your "universal keyring" You click OK. You are warned that the universal keyring is encrypted and your sending encrypted information. You click OK. After 3 minutes you get an error saying "No key server found" ... and so on...

    You never do get to see the Internet. But the wallpaper is amazing.

  13. Re:that sounds good but.. by Space+cowboy · · Score: 5, Informative

    "has mac done this or is it just that the OS on a linux bas system is just plain faster"

    The implication that the Mac might have got rid of the BIOS (and hence gained speed) is tied to "a linux-based system is just plain faster". You could easily read that as suggesting the Mac is Linux-based.

    FWIW, the Mac doesn't use a BIOS, it uses EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) these days. And it's not Linux-based either.

    Simon.

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
  14. That's just sooo not gonna fly by melted · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Take it from a former Microserf - this "internal project" will be taken to the nearest corner and shot (and maybe also mutilated and spat on). When you have a huge turd of a codebase dating back 15 years in some places, the last thing you want to do is dramatically rehash it. Projects like this are DOA at Microsoft after the WinFS fiasco.

    1. Re:That's just sooo not gonna fly by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But Microsoft has soooooo much money. How can they not be able to do this?

      The thing that always amazes me about Windows is not how half-assed it is, but how half-assed it is given the amount of resources that Microsoft has to throw at the problem. You'd think that they'd have the money to fund tons of cool pieces of software to go with a Windows installation. I mean Windows Paint is a pathetic application that does almost nothing, a team of open source developers could better it in a week. But Microsoft doesn't improve it, or any of the utilities that come with Windows, nor does it ever add any really good or useful ones.

      That's just the start. Why didn't Microsoft implement some really awesome tools to assist with driver and hardware management? What they have is so basic! They have BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars and this is the best that they can do?

      Honestly, Windows XP isn't terrible as an operating system; if you stick to simple stuff and don't expect too much, it can serve you well. But in terms of bang-for-the-buck, it must be the worst piece of software *ever*. Because if it's the best that a company can do with more money than most countries, well that just says that the company in question is pathetic.

      With the amount of money they have, I would think they could afford to fund 10 separate teams in parallel, each developing the next generation of Windows from scratch, and pick the best of the 10 when they're done. And yet they can't even muster enough skill to produce *one* decent next-generation product? What a bunch of losers!

    2. Re:That's just sooo not gonna fly by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They aren't losers in the sense of making money, but they are losers in the sense of being poor engineers.

      No, I don't think the priority should be a new version of paint. You are completely missing the point. I am saying that with the resources Microsoft has, they should be able to produce a very, very good operating system, cutting edge and advanced in almost every way, and STILL have enough money left over to do things like update Paint. And after all that, still have $billions of dollars in the bank.

      If MS Windows came with a good image manipulation program, there still wouldn't be anything preventing you from buying a better one if you wanted to. And, if Microsoft didn't suck at writing operating systems so badly, it would be a very easy to set option to decide at install time what features you wanted and what you didn't.

      Are you saying that having NO choice is better than having SOME choice? Or that Microsoft's productivity *isn't* pathetic given their resources?

    3. Re:That's just sooo not gonna fly by fwarren · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If one woman can make a baby in 9 months, surely 9 women can make a baby in one month?

      Even if an organization is flat. And everybody had their shit together and really knew their code.

      2 people have 1 path of communication
      3 people have 3 paths of communication
      4 people have 6 paths of communication
      5 people have 10 paths of communication

      Every person you have that needs to be in the know, adds to the complexity of communicating. Soon there is so much overhead nothing gets done but trying to stay up to date.

      Every "group" at Microsoft has this problem. The vista start button had one programmer working on it. This programmer had a beta tester, meetings with his manager. The manager had meetings with the UI manager, who had to share and work with his staff about how the button looked. The mananger also met with the systems manager, because his team actually had to plug the "shutdown" button into the code that did the shutdown, or hibernate. When it was all said and done. The programmer would make a change, and it would have to go through like 9 or 13 other people before it could be Ok'ed.

      All we are talking about here is ONE LITTLE BUTTON on a menu.

      Parkinson's Law "Work Expands To Fill The Time Available To Complete It"

      Parkinson correctly predicted that the British Navy would have more Admirals one day than they had ships. Due to people being promoted to fill all available space.

      Microsoft is so big. It can't trim back down to being lean and mean. Everything is done to much by committee to get anything important of quality done in a timely matter.

      As someone once said "God so loved the world, that he did not send a committee"

      Microsoft is it's own biggest competitor (Windows 2000 and XP competing against Vista and 7)

      Microsoft is it's own biggest enemy (death by committee)

      --
      vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.
  15. Re:that sounds good but.. by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is essentially exactly the same as Windows Vista except instead of removing features as they get close to the deadline, they've started out with all the features already removed. When you don't meet your expectations, lower the expectations.

    --
    Qxe4
  16. Virtualised Legacy by Kenshin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Legacy support can easily be virtualised. That's how Apple managed the jump from OS9 to OSX (the "Classic" environment was launched on-demand), and that's how Windows 7 should be built.

    Sure, legacy apps will run marginally slower, but new apps will be free of the built-up cruft.

    --

    Does it make you happy you're so strange?

  17. Can it be like Star Trek? by CleverScreenName · · Score: 4, Funny

    Every odd Windows Version being good?

    1) Windows 3.1?
    2) Windows 95
    3) Windows 98
    4) Windows Me
    5) Windows XP
    6) Vista
    7) First Contact?

  18. The Microsoft secret to success by jmorris42 · · Score: 5, Informative

    > So Microsoft tells something about the next version of Windows not long after the people
    > have noticed that their current version isn't all that it's made up to be?

    Duh. They have been doing this same bait and switch for the life of the company.

    Step One. Release wonderous New Version! It is THE must have thing.

    Step Two. Everyone realizes it sucks but their money is already in Bill's pocket. And everyone realizes they have no choice but to adopt the new product anyway because of the three year hardware replacement cycle and the illegal (as certified by a US court) bundling agreements with the OEMs that continue to this day. Especially in the case of their OS but to a lesser extent with Office and the other crap they peddle.

    Step Three. Microsoft begins hinting about the upcoming new version. It will fix all of the (not quite admitted) problems with current version AND add exciting new must have features. And it is coming Really Soon.

    Step Four. Have their minions in the trade press obsess about Upcoming new version. All complaints about Current version are answered with "But Upcoming version will be out soon and will fix that problem." After a year or two make sure to begin writing reviews for competitors products by comparing them to features that Upcoming version will be shipping "Any day now". By this point EVERYONE must be lamenting how crappy the shipping version is to help generate the NEED to upgrade when the new version ships.

    Step Five. As the death march to release continues and feaures get cut, spin it as a good thing. (We are focusing on the needs of our customers, blah, blah.) Now that there is beta (anyone else would rate it pre-alpha but.....) code get the drumbeat ramping up in the press with lots of articles and screenshots. Will your hardware be compatible? Can life as you know it continue without the exciting new features? Etc, blah blah.

    Step Six. The product finally releases... See Step One.

    --
    Democrat delenda est
  19. Re:that sounds good but.. by McFadden · · Score: 5, Informative

    Linux != UNIX != OS X
    Actually, from next Friday... Leopard gets UNIX certification Mac OS X will be officially Unix.
  20. Re:that sounds good but.. by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Informative

    I used to have a program that analyzed the boot log file from a windows 98/ME machines and pointed to anything over a set time frame. It diplayed everything in the boot log but it let you filter it to specific times, failures and all that. Often the generic devices that used system memory and processing power took the most times to load. Taking the modem out and replacing the on board stuff with good full blown cards would decrease load times enormously.

    It is possible you had a sound card that just wasn't a full blown hardware sound and off loaded a bunch of stuff onto the system's processor and memory.

    Of course the different types of boot logs on NT machines didn't work so it cannot look at XPs boot logs. I haven't found anything like it for 2000/XP either. Which really sucks because often the boot log can show all sorts of problem areas that could lead to other glitches in the OS.

  21. OS X.X? by Chas · · Score: 4, Funny

    Where they trade out command line and GUI for a full emoticon-based interface.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  22. The operating system family tree by renegadesx · · Score: 5, Funny

    OSX was loosly based on NeXT. It's kernel is Darwin which is based on NetBSD.

    Linux is loosly based on Minix only ditching the microkernel design and got support as the GNU kernel (another microkernel) was going nowhere.

    Minix and BSD are based on UNIX, anyone can make a UNIX System III derivative for free as the code is public domain. Just most of the code is obsolete so you are better off making a BSD or Linux derivative (or Minix 3 if you want a microkernel)

    So if you look at a family tree, Minix and Linux are brothers while OSX and Linux are more like cousins

    Windows is the annoying friend that spunges off you for handouts and crashes on your couch

    --
    Make SELinux enforcing again!
  23. Re:Wrong family line by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Informative

    Consumer line:

    Windows 1.0
    Windows 2.0
    Windows 3.0
    Windows 3.1
    Windows 95 (v. 4.0)
    Windows 98 (v. 4.1)
    Windows ME (v. 4.9)
    Line killed off.

    Business line:

    Windows NT 3.5
    Windows NT 4.0
    Windows 2000 (v. 5.0)
    Windows XP (v. 5.1)
    Windows Vista (v. 6)
    Windows "7"

    There were no NT versions prior to 3.5 because the first NT was released after Windows 3.11, and Microsoft wanted their numbering to be consistent. NT 3.5 coexisted with Windows 3.x (and shared the same GUI design), NT 4.0 coexisted with Windows 4.x, and then MS killed off the "Consumer" Windows line, leaving the NT line to fill versions 5 and 6.

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
  24. Oh God... by andreyw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh God... I can't believe this actually made news. In. Such. A. Horribly. Skewed. Fashion. But this is /. You can watch the presentation HERE - http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/conference/2007/videos It was ONE of MANY presentations given as part of the ANNUAL UIUC ACM-hosted conference. Please actually watch the presentation and STFU. Please. All it shows is that Microsoft is working on fixing what it considers to be mistakes in the design of its NT system. That is it. It's work as part of Win7. It is _not_ Win7. Listen to the questions that students asked Eric about MinWin. Listen to the answers.

  25. Re:that sounds good but.. by InvalidError · · Score: 5, Informative

    What does a BIOS do? It does POST, lets the user customize some low-level system settings and puts the system in a known state before loading the OS's (boot-)loader.

    An x86-style legacy BIOS does the same fundamental things as an x86-style EFI BIOS, the only major differences being the BIOS APIs, how the boot process is structured and the fact that EFI is not backwards-compatible on its own. Other than that, a BIOS, by any other name, is still a BIOS. EFI simply has fewer kludges and ties to legacy x86 hardware.

    BTW, a few weeks ago, I read an article about some MoBo manufacturers considering adding 512MB-2GB of flash memory to boot an embedded Linux desktop from the BIOS for disk-less web-browsing and other stuff... a BIOS with embedded Linux does not seem that far-fetched, we only need 1GB firmware hubs to plug into Intel's chipsets and hope we will not need to flash our 1GB BIOS too often.

  26. Re:that sounds good but.. by miro+f · · Score: 5, Funny

    actually you'll find that conditional operators don't expand like that. The sentence is saying "the value of Linux != UNIX is not equal to OSX. In other words, (Linux != UNIX) != OSX or (true) != OSX.

    He is clearly attempting to say that UNIX is not true, whatever that means

    --
    being vague is almost as cool as doing that other thing...
  27. Re:I thought this headline was about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    USE="clippy" yay!

  28. Re:that sounds good but.. by Daengbo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just yesterday I was on some site (CNET, I think) and was going to flame someone who posted that "OSX is not LIKE Unix, it IS Unix." Sure, it has BSD wedged in there over Mach, I thought, but that's not Unix. It's POSIX compliant, but not Unix. It wasn't actually based on BSD.

    Then I went to check my facts. I found this visual history, and OSX was nowhere on there. Great, I thought. I just need one more link to cement my position. Then I found the Open Group's list, and damn, I was wrong again. OSX 10.5 is Unix 03. Sucks to be me.

    --
    Put identity in the browser.
  29. Nice try but you guys are all wrong by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Funny

    The numbering system has nothing to do with this. Microsoft named it "7" in order to announce that they are finally catching up to MacOS's revolutionary System 7, from 1991. I for one can't wait for Windows to finally get "Balloon Help"!