Techie Pay Approaches All-time High

Stony Stevenson sent in this ITNews story which opens, "Techies were paid nearly record-high hourly wages in the third quarter, according to a new report released Thursday by staffing firm Yoh. Based on data compiled from 75 Yoh field offices and 5,000 technology professionals contracted in short and long-term projects, pay increased an average of more than 5.5 percent for the quarter ended Sept. 30, compared to the same period last year."

Comments

Well duh

[Reason58]

McDonald's workers were also paid more than any other time in history. If you are going to a study like this without adjusting for ever-present inflation, then of course you will constantly see new records.

Re:Well duh

[Opportunist]

Compared to what? Internationally or nationally? I don't know about the national inflation of the US, but when you compare the USD to other currencies from large markets, I'd say no, it didn't lose 5.5 percent of its value. It lost much more.

Re:Well duh

[Fallen Kell]

Has the dollar inflated 5.5% in the last year? Sounds unlikely to me, but IANAEconomist.. or even informed..

No just 9.4% against the British Pound
13.2% against the Canadian Dollar
11.1% against the Euro

Need I go on? A 5.5% raise is still a 4-7% DECREASE in buying power verses the world economy.

Re:Well duh

[Z34107]

Need I go on? A 5.5% raise is still a 4-7% DECREASE in buying power verses the world economy.

No it doesn't.

A 5.5% raise means you have 5.5% more money.

An 11.1% fall against the Euro means you have 11.1% less purchasing power when buying goods imported from Europe. You're not any "poorer" than they are.

It also means our goods are 11.1% less expensive for Europeans, which means more exports and lessened trade deficit.

Just because our currency lost value against another country's doesn't mean we're now "poorer" than they are.

Re:Well duh

[Anonymous Coward]

As your currency goes down, you are in fact more poor: Wealth, income and purchasing power are all lower on a globally defined basis. Your domestically defined purchasing power is indeed higher compared to other countries domestically defined purchasing power, but given the rather grotesque trade deficit you're carrying, net-net it means you're gonna pay more for stuff overall.

Granted, it also means that your assets (including labor) are cheaper on a global basis, and other countries will buy more of them when the bloodletting starts to end. But, you can't have it both ways. They will buy more of you and your stuff because, indeed, you are poorer.

Re:Well duh

[mrlibertarian]

An 11.1% fall against the Euro means you have 11.1% less purchasing power when buying goods imported from Europe.

Huh? Doesn't it mean dollar holders lose, in general, 11.1% of their purchasing power for any good that could be sold on the global market?

For example, imagine a world in which you could buy one gold ounce for 1000 dollars, or one gold ounce for 1000 euros. In that case, the exchange rate would probably be 1:1. If the exchange rate were to ever go to 2:1, everyone would instantly have an arbitrage opportunity: Sell 1 gold ounce for 1000 euros, exchange those euros for 2000 dollars, and buy 2 gold ounces, for a profit of 1 gold ounce. But market action like that would quickly drive the exchange ratio back to 1:1.

So, if the exchange ratio were to ever go to 2:1, we could reason that either 1) the new exchange ratio will be short lived or 2) we will see a general price increase of 100%, in terms of dollars, on goods that could be (but will not necessarily be) exchanged on the global market. You seem to be treating the exchange rate as though it is unrelated to domestic prices, but perhaps I don't understand your position.

Re:Well duh

[tyrione]

We have nearly a $1 Trillion trade deficit. We import more than we export. So yes, either our domestic goods aren't selling at advantageous prices/value or we indeed are seeing a Drop in Buying Power. The fact is, the cost of Goods and Services in the US for US only services exceeds the cost of living adjustment. With our trade deficit we aren't seeing inflation because most of the offset in corporations comes from the investments abroad these corporations have heavily invested within the past decade. Take a look at the 10-K of most Global Corporations that originate in the U.S. They've heavily invested OUTSIDE THE US.

Please Read: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/OurBiggestExportInflation.aspx

Article Excerpt:

A pain in the wallet

That's how a falling currency is supposed to work. A cheaper dollar encourages exports and discourages imports, leading to a gradual climb in the value of the dollar. Ultimately, a high U.S. trade deficit hits you and me right in the wallet. Here's how:

• When the U.S. is running a big trade deficit, our trading partners wind up holding a larger number of U.S. dollars every month. A trade deficit means we're importing more goods and services than we export, and we wind up exporting dollars in order to pay for the excess goods.
• As those dollars build up overseas, governments, companies and individuals recycle them by buying U.S. bonds and stocks and other assets.
• This increases the exposure of these overseas owners of dollars to the risks of the U.S. currency and U.S. asset markets. If the value of the dollar declines, their dollar-denominated investments will lose value as well.
• At some point, these overseas owners of U.S. dollars start to demand higher returns -- higher interest rates on Treasury bonds, for example -- to offset that currency risk.
• Some may sell off a portion of their dollars, producing exactly the kind of fall in the currency that they had worried about in the first place, which leads again to a demand for higher returns.
• The higher interest rates demanded by overseas dollar holders finally start to slow economic growth in the U.S. That slowdown, plus the higher prices consumers have to pay for imported goods because of the weak dollar, takes a painful bite out of family incomes. (Or it halves or eliminates the family income, if one or both family breadwinners get laid off because of the slowdown.)

Re:Well duh

[Anonymous Coward]

Real estate is down slightly over the last few months, but that's mostly hypothetical--they went so high that our return to sane lending standards has all but eliminated buyers from the market. It'll be some time before sellers resign themselves to accepting prices working class buyers can actually afford. Meanwhile, ARM payments are skyrocketing as the poorly-comprehended rate bumps kick in, and rents are up because so few can buy while foreclosures are turning "owners" back into renters.

Many people are paying more per month and/or settling for less housing, while few are paying less than they were recently.

In other news...

[Tackhead]

From TFA:
> Compared to the same months in 2006, hourly wages for techies in 2007 rose 6 percent in July, 4.64 percent in August, and 5.79 percent in September.

Compared to the value of the US dollar against every major currency in 2006, hourly wages for US-based techies are still down 5-10% year over year.

Re:In other news...

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Only if you are spending all of your US dollars on merchandise/services produced outside of the U.S.

Or at least most. If you're not spending more than 75% of your income on imports, then you either must live in one of the few places in the United States where Agriculture and manufacturing hasn't been utterly destroyed by imports, or you actually believe "Made in America" means something more than parts created in Mexico & China and shipped here for assembly.

I dare you to find a 100% made in America computer or car.

Or anything else requiring magnets, capacitors, and resistors (none of which are made in America anymore).

Heck- for that matter- I challenge you to find a US Soldier who isn't dependent upon part of his gear made someplace else than America.

For that reason, yes, the falling US dollar is about to make a 2008 $75,000/year paycheck feel like a 1995 $26,000/year paycheck. Good luck continuing to afford your education, for which you need to keep your techie job more than a couple of generations of languages and operating systems, on THAT.

Re:In other news...

[Bill Dog]

For that reason, yes, the falling US dollar is about to make a 2008 $75,000/year paycheck feel like a 1995 $26,000/year paycheck.

I made $28,000/year in 1995, and remember what it was like, and can assure you that unless your tastes and/or family has dramatically expanded with your salary, $75K currently affords a large amount of disposable income, and is nothing like the former circumstances.

the exchange rate

[User 956]

pay increased an average of more than 5.5 percent for the quarter ended Sept. 30, compared to the same period last year.

Yeah, but it's in American Dollars, so the amount actually decreased.

Re:the exchange rate

[Opportunist]

Indirectly, they do. Because resources become more expensive.

The USD is a global currency. Thus, you don't feel it as directly as another country when it goes down in inflation. But when some large market isn't affected by the same inflation, like China or even more so the EU, since their market is not as tightly tied to the US market as China's, you notice it with prices for resources going up, since they will more easily be able to afford those resources, and, well, supply and demand, their demand increases due to subjectively sinking prices. The price "increases" (for the EU it remains mostly stable, though, since the EUR gets stronger compared to the USD) to match this increased demand, which in turn means that resources become more expensive for the US.

So yes, in a very indirect way, the amount decreases. The amoung of everything. As it was mentioned already, the US production is highly dependent on imports. Imports of resources but also import of goods, both of which become more expensive due to a softer USD.

Unfortunately for American workers

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

Oil and most other necessities are also at record highs.

I'm in the wrong business...

[corychristison]

...translated to an average hourly tech worker wage of US$31.80.
Among the hottest skills being demanded right now by Yoh clients are Java and .Net developers, database administrators, SAP functional and technical consultants, and project managers, said Jim Lanzalotto, Yoh's VP of strategy and marketing. Last quarter, SAP consultants on average earned US$88.07 per hour, while Java developers earned US$50.89, per hour, according to Yoh's research.

read the subject

Re:I'm in the wrong business...

[Surt]

Garbagemen make a lot too. You have to pay people to get them to do painful tasks.

The new tech economy

[i_ate_god]

The first IT bubble taught us one thing: what's a good idea and what's a bad idea. Now that we figured that out, a second wave of technology money is washing over the world, only this time it's slower, more calculated, and less dumb. With articles all over the place saying that kids aren't getting into IT anymore, salaries will keep going up for skilled tech-savvy individuals who can get the job done.

The experimentation is over folks, it's time to get some real work done, and get paid handsomely for it since we are NOT a dime a dozen.

Re:The new tech economy

[19thNervousBreakdown]

I dunno, I've thought about it a million times, and when it comes down to it our only real skills are memorization, problem domain reduction, patience, discipline, and critical thought ... which boils fairly well down to critical thought. Once I come to that conclusion, I can't help but wonder if I even want to be so rare.

Re:The new tech economy

[pla]

our only real skills are memorization, problem domain reduction, patience, discipline, and critical thought

I would agree with that completely. Anyone who focuses on specific skills such as language-X or web-platform-Y just doesn't "get" it.

However, at least two of those "skills", critical thought and problem domain reduction (I like that term - Your own phrasing, or the newest buzzword for the same ol' idea?), not everyone has the capacity to learn.

Not a matter of dedication or intelligence, I've known plenty of dedicated, intelligent people who simply can't grasp the idea that my job consists of nothing more than reducing big, seemingly-intractable problems down to a set of small, easily-solved ones (much less do the same). No amount of education (or at least, no amount of time in our current education system) can remedy that.



Once I come to that conclusion, I can't help but wonder if I even want to be so rare.

Agreed completely... It often disturbs me how little critical thought most people put into everyday tasks. Even the absolutely basic "does this make sense in its own context" slips past unasked.

People fight over politics, without noticing that the elephants and asses do the same exact things. People fight over imaginary lines on a map. People fight over which fictional group of "warriors" will win at the stadium this week, as though it matters in some way. People beg the government to save them from a 0.001% chance of death at the hand of flashy "bad people", while daily facing almost the exact same risk of death or serious injury merely getting in their car and driving to work.

We, as a species, have problems.

Where?

[damn_registrars]

This is a link to a news source in Australia. They then link to informationweek.com, who is in the US. But I've never heard of the company who runs the survey they are talking about, so I have no way to know who was surveyed about their wages.

Except in Broadcast Engineering...

[Newer Guy]

Pay there is DROPPING about 5% a year-both in actual pay and in the amount of responsibility for the same pay. As (clueless) broadcasting groups buy more stations, they expect the existing tech. staff to assume the burden of the extra work-with no more pay or assistance. The pay used to work out to about $15K per station. Then it dropped to 12K. Now it's at about $9K, which means that the average radio broadcast engineer makes about $60K for servicing 7 stations. This many stations means that all he's doing is running around putting out fires all the time.

Re:Except in Broadcast Engineering...

[Nephilium]

Actually... I would say there's three things at play here...

1) We're techies... we like problem solving... especially interesting ones. Keep us fed with interesting problems, and we'll stay for a long time.
2) IT people (as a group), are generally bad at negotiating.
3) A standard fear of change... everyone has it. Especially when it comes to jobs and paychecks (unless they're going up).

And I worked for many years at small companies... working the 60+ hours. About two years ago, I was without a job, and got one at a faceless corporation. It's amazing, my stress level is lower, my pay is higher (by a significant amount), and my hours are generally less. The other IT people who I work with who started by interning for this company don't seem to understand how bad it can be... which amuses me...

Nephilium

I don't think they said USA wages

[walterbyrd]

They may mean USA, or maybe they mean wages in India?

The hottest skills sound about right. But, if you don't have 5 years recent experience already, you can forget about those area: SAP, Project Management, database administrators.

-shameless plug-
Please feel free to view my research on IT wages, collected in the Denver area, go here:

http://it-careers.pbwiki.com/

And click on "IT Salary Survey"

Re:I don't think they said USA wages

[tompaulco]

But, if you don't have 5 years recent experience already, you can forget about those area: SAP, Project Management, database administrators.
You're spang-on there. I used to be a hotshot datawarehouse architect billing $100/hour. Then 9/11 hit and I had to take $anyoldjob which did not even involve databases. Now, my database skills are 6 years old, and I haven't a prayer of getting hired for a datawarehouse position. Now, mind you, I had a natural aptitude for relation databases, and went from 0 to eclipsing my peers in less than a year, so obviously, I could learn it again in a matter of months, but that is not what employers want to hear.
So I am still doing $anyoldjob, which is a serious waste of my talent, and doesn't pay much to boot.

Hard to compare

[timeOday]

It's hard to know what conclusions to draw from this sort of thing unless they have a very well thought out metric and collect it consistently from year to year. For instance, the US has been gradually moving away from long-term employment with a regular paycheck and benefits (such as a pension and paid vacation) and towards contracting with fewer benefits and stability. I would certainly expect these contractors to receive more cash per hour, but that isn't the whole picture.

Contractor versus Full-Time

[Gybrwe666]

The other problem with this comparison is that this is only looking at contractor pay, not full-time employee salaries. As full disclosure, I work for a firm that provides IT Staffing as one of its services. Yes, certain in-demand skill sets are getting big bucks. Where I work locally, there have been so many positions posted for various C programmers that we simply can't find anymore, and the ones who will move for a short term or mid-term project are asking and, by and large, getting ridiculous salaries.

But when we do full-time placements, I'm not seeing a big increase. Not only that, but the majority of positions we filled this year were full-time placements.

So I think saying they are at an all-time high needs to be qualified: for certain contractors, which are the jobs where companies like Yoh are most likely to be placing candidates.

Bill

Well duh. The H1-B visa expansion is also expiring

[Anonymous Coward]

People forget that each H1-B visa lasts for basically 7 years. And that the limits were wildly expanded during the dot-com boom. Starting in 2000, they went from 65,000 to 130,000. And this continued well after the dot-com bust had happened. It was only in 2004 that the limits went back down to 65,000.

Since this limit wasn't expanded this year (yet), that means lots of H1-Bs are starting to go home. This is why all of the visas that were issued in April were gobbled up in a single day. And none of this is something that you'll see in the mainstream press.

So a lot of H1-B's are going home this year. The local labor market WILL get tighter, and wages WILL rise.

If the limits aren't expanded this year, it's unlikely they'll be expanded next year either, as that's a major election year.

If Hillary Clinton is elected though (which seems likely), you can expect them to again be doubled, as she's been aggressively promoting their expansion, even on her current website.

So, expect wages to go up, while the H1-B's go home. And enjoy it while it lasts, as it won't last forever.

It's just more proof that H1-B's are all about cheap labor and not about a lack of talent.

Not adjusted for real estate and security.

[Baldrson]

If you look at "techie wages" adjusted for the increased price of real estate in places like Silicon Valley, and the lessening of the security of those wages, especially approaching middle age, then you see the real reason why mere propaganda isn't going to draw young people into tech fields ever again.

CAD?

[loconet]

That translated to an average hourly tech worker wage of US$31.80

What is that in CAD? a loonie or so an hour?

Too bad that doesn't keep up with inflation.

[voisine]

Too bad inflation is at 18%, as measured by the increase in the money supply. 10-15% measured by price increases, if you include the stuff the FED likes to leave out, you know, like housing, fuel, college education, health care, unimportant stuff like that which the average techie doesn't spend much of his income on.

Re:Too bad that doesn't keep up with inflation.

[OakLEE]

Just to address a few specific claims.

Housing: Housing prices are not increasing? Did you see the losses all of the banks took this quarter? It's because of all of the people who defaulted on mortgages they could not afford to pay. Those people cannot afford to pay because they have no equity in their homes to refinance. They have no equity in their homes because property values have declined by as much as 15% in the last year in some parts of the country. Those houses they walked away from; they are now being repossessed and sold further depressing the housing market. This isn't inflationary at all. It's text book deflationary pressure, and based on the losses some these banks are taking I predict its going to result in a net decrease of at least $40-70 billion in the money supply of this country. This is only going to show in the form of these people decreasing their spending since they won't have that home equity line of credit to draw from.

Fuel: Sure oil is hitting $90 a barrel, but that's still below the inflation-adjusted all-time high of $100 that we saw in late 1970s. Source. And most of this recent spike is due to overblown concerns over Iran and speculators (i.e., people who are just buying oil because they think it is going up in price, not people who actually use it) who are going to start dumping oil in the next few months. I bet you oil is closer to $70 in January than it is to $100. (And as an aside, as someone who wants to encourage renewable energy, I want $100 oil because at this point solar, biodiesel, ethanol, geothermal, and a whole bunch of other alternative energy sources become economically profitable. That'll never happen until oil is legitimately scare though because OPEC will act to keep longterm prices below this point to avoid letting the genie out of the bottle. Source.

Health Care and Education: There are legitimate concerns with respect to inflation in these two areas as their cost increases are far and a way outstripping regular inflation.

The Loonie is worth more than a US Dollar

[MichaelCrawford]

Thanks to the war in Iraq - it's being funded by selling Treasury bonds.

XE says the US dollar is worth about 96.6 Canadian cents.

Brain region

[ConcreteJungle]

Hmm, doesn't look like most people here have a strong rostral anterior cingulate and amygdala

You're such a fool

[Travoltus]

I'm a manager at a tech outfit, a fairly large one.

What we are looking for are high end techies, and the wage inflation is due to our desperation to get high end techies - programmers and network admins the like.

A newb trying to get into this field has absolutely NO CHANCE.

Go look at the job ads and see what they're looking for as far as experience is concerned. You can't even meet those requirements with internships.

The wages are rising because America's pool of experienced techies is drying up, and fast. There are few to no new tech 'masters' rising in America; they're all coming from Asia, because that is where all the newb jobs are.

Those H-1 visas are coming here to compete with rock bottom wages, too.

Re:You're such a fool

[jollyreaper]

I'm a manager at a tech outfit, a fairly large one.

What we are looking for are high end techies, and the wage inflation is due to our desperation to get high end techies - programmers and network admins the like.

A newb trying to get into this field has absolutely NO CHANCE.

Go look at the job ads and see what they're looking for as far as experience is concerned. You can't even meet those requirements with internships. It's the Republican hyper-capitalist mentality. There's no sense of a 'commons' anymore. Anyone doing something for the community is seen as a sucker. Time was when companies saw a benefit from being good stewards. You gotta take on beginner technies in order to grow veteran techies. Gotta give them continuing education, too. "But wait, this guy might not work for me in five years! Fucking commies are screwing me!" No, he might not be. But someone else who got the same kind of leg-up will be. Don't worry, it's all good.

The best analogy I can think of would be to compare the economy to an ecology and these hyper-capitalists are the top predators, eating their fill of the best the land has to offer. They shit in a cave because they feel that letting their feces back into the life cycle is somehow ripping them off. Then when they end up with a barren, lifeless land and a cave full of shit, they'll say it's because of the liberals.

Honestly, you see this mentality everywhere. "Why the hell should I pay for public schooling when I don't have kids?" Because these will be the people taking care of you in your old age and paying your part for social security then. "Why should there be social services for the poor?" You might be in that position yourself one day. Also, giving options to the poor will help steer them towards productive pursuits instead of taking the easy way out and stealing your shit. But no, this idea of community and giving back is completely alien, beyond all understanding, ungrokable.

Re:You're such a fool

[jollyreaper]

Yes, because there are no Democrats in Big Business? Have you examined the resumes of our Democrat Representatives and Senators? Have you noticed that nearly every Presidential Candidate on the Democrat side rose to prominence via business? Pinning this on Republicans is stupid and cheapens your otherwise well thought out post. Well, I did neglect to mention the Republican wing of the Democratic Party. At this point, I don't know if there are many real Dems left in office. God knows, the Dem-controlled Congress couldn't agree to pass a non-binding resolution to declare kittens cute, let alone bring about any effective legislation.

Re:Well duh. The H1-B visa expansion is also expir

[billcopc]

If you're having that much difficulty staffing your positions, maybe you need to rethink the requirements. You don't need an all-star team to run a tech shop, you really just need one star and a gaggle of willing juniors.

Re:Well duh. The H1-B visa expansion is also expir

[Firethorn]

Bingo - How do you think that people get experience? The WoW fairy?

Eventually wages will rise to the point that american businesses realize something they should of been thinking about years ago - You need people of all skill levels. Apprentices are necessary.

Heck, I was shocked to see that the USAF is finally acknowledging that - they would ramp up tech school training, give huge bonuses to keep people in(and get them in), then proceed to force people out when they went over their requirements. Result: Fields were unbalanced, with either too many higher ups or too many juniors. Now they're finally accepting that while things might be a little more 'unbalanced' in the short term, plotting further into the future is a good thing. Because then they can adjust course with a tap instead of a sledge.

Businesses need to realize this as well - while you might loose 80% of your apprentices to other jobs, you should keep at least some of them. Provide the right benefits and treat them right, and you might keep over half of those you want - making the program worth it as you collect talent from the beginning.

Inflation etc

[cartman]

The actual data indicates that during 2001-2006 tech salaries grew at 1-2% (which is less than inflation), and during 2006-2007 they grew at at 5% (which is more than inflation).

An obvious hypothesis is that the techie market was in disarray following the dotcom meltdown, during which techies lost real (inflation-adjusted) income. But now the market has recovered, and techies are experiencing wage gains faster than inflation because of cyclic recovery and pent-up demand.

Note that techie salaries are still below their Y2001 levels in inflation-adjusted terms. But then again, techie salaries were probably abnormally high during that period.

None of this is really that surprising.

Oh really?

[pkcuff]

Out-of-pocket expenses that were once the domain of the employer are not only the employee's responsibility now, but they're also at an all-time high. Health insurance for yourself and your family? You have got to be kidding. Too bad I can't tolerate the cold, I'd move to Canada. Or maybe I should move to Mexico, get my Mexican citizenship, and then sneak back in. Then I'd have healthcare.

the Fed lies

[Anonymous Coward]

..they stopped publishing the most important aspects of money supply in the M3 stats. Different private orgs have attempted to reconstruct it, the ones I have seen both had the US running over 10% a year inflation,(12 really) significantly higher than the "official" stats they claim. Just pay attention to what you buy, you'll see it isn't a paltry 4 or 5 %. It's the main reason foreigners are doing the slow bailout from the dollar. The chinese were even blunter,in public,an "in your face" statement direct to the US, directly from one of their main bankers, he said they have no idea whatsoever how many dollars are being put into circulation, that any figures from the Fed are no longer trustworthy, so they stopped accumulating them as a reserve (they held at a trillion and change), and have shifted to other currencies and into tangibles in a big way (buying up long term energy and mineral contracts for example). They are being followed by any number of other nations and big private investors. It's in the biz headlines *daily*. These are clues.

I fail to see how people can miss it either, fuel, home heating, electricity rates, medical expenses and insurance, etc, all up WAY more than 4,5 or 6 percent over the past year most places. Food in particular people should be prepped for some serious sticker shock at the grocery store and at restaurants after the conclusion of this fall's grains harvest, the US does *not* stockpile grain like it used to to keep prices up. We used to have years worth of reserve, now we have at best a few weeks tops. Weeks. We have no practical backup food supply now, and what is there will be driven by cutthroat mercenary commodities brokers. You will be paying closer to what food really costs "real soon now". The US has had defacto subsidized food for *generations*. Biofuel demand is kicking in, it isn't going away, and the era of cheap food is now officially over, and you won't ever see it again. Never. Fixating on just a few cheaper electronic gadgets and prices is not the whole economy, or even the bulk of where people spend their money. And just wait until the loony tunes end times Armageddon Israel firsters hit Iran, hoo boy howdy you are going to see some price increases once the straits of hormuz are full of flaming tankers and half the middle east has production facilities on fire. Sky is the limit then on prices, as oil goes, so goes the world economy, and we will be seeing between 100 and 200 a barrel prices rippling through the economy in a very short time frame. There is very little "spare" production capacity to make up for the oily triangle flows globally, most places are already maxed out and it takes a long time to get new rigs in place. Even if the middle east is not the US primary source for oil, what oil we do get is still based on global prices, and them boys will get what they ask for it once 50% is taken off the market within a few days. And it's coming. This is going to be an economic tsunami, and those that can read this security ocean's signs will take precautions in advance, because waiting for the surge to hit is not the time to head for higher and safer ground.

Re:the Fed lies

[moderatorrater]

Insightful my ass. I used to work for the electric company, and then was a customer for them five years later. According to this AC, my electric bill should have been around 55% higher after 5 years, but my bill was strangely about the same (maybe up to 20% higher - maybe). Claiming that what China does is an indicator for the dollar is ridiculous considering the way they treat their own currency. When they let the value of the yuan fluctuate with the market, then you can use them as an indicator.

And then you start rambling about grain. I remember a couple years back that there was a grain scare, where they said the price was going to skyrocket and it never did. As for paying what food costs, I'm all for it, I would rather pay at the grocery store for my food than pay through my taxes to get cheaper food from our farmers and to also pay them to leave land fallow.

I also love the number of links you've put in your article and the complete lack of references. You read like someone saying that they've found a way to harvest free energy, or that you've disproved the theory of relativity - you throw out some terminology, make some up, confuse the hell out of people and then come to a conclusion.

Re:the Fed lies

[IamTheRealMike]

It's a fact that M3 is no longer published by the Fed. They claim it is "no longer useful" or something ridiculous like that, but the timing is rather suspicious - it's well known that the dollar has been massively inflated to pay for the war in Iraq (just look at the Federal budget deficit). The AC doesn't provide references it's true, but just Google "fed m3" to get the gory details. Then compare the reconstructed M3 for the US to other countries like UK or Switzerland. You'll find that the less allied to the US they are, in general, the more slowly their money supply increases. It's a bad trend.

Re:Not in my city

[Tablizer]

in Hong Kong technician or so-called engineer's wages always like diving ... LOW! Today's the "management" got highest pay whatever their ability is, they can mess up a company, walk away a few weeks, and get a job elsewhere doing the same things again and again....I saw quite a number of US and Japan "engineer" did their projects like a mess ... amazing LOW quality! I wonder WHERE the guys who taught us these valuable knowledge and experience

It should be clear if you put the above clues together: us slipshod US techies are training for management.

Re:Well duh. The H1-B visa expansion is also expir

[GBuddha]

Since this limit wasn't expanded this year (yet), that means lots of H1-Bs are starting to go home. So a lot of H1-B's are going home this year. The local labor market WILL get tighter, and wages WILL rise.
H-1B extensions are not counted towards the quota. People are going back because there are more growth opportunities in India and getting a Green Card is simply taking too long these days. No one wants to work as a software engineer for 6-10 years anymore just to get a Green Card. In India you can become a senior manager in the same time.

Double doh.

[MikeFM]

Maybe in Australia techs are well paid. I don't think they are here in the US.

I make less than I did 10 years ago and my cost of living is at least twice as much and the skill and experience required is far far more than what was required 10 years ago. My experience is that most companies these days are rather cheap when it comes to paying their geeks. I didn't even go for the high paying job offers I had back then - if I had, then I would have been making 6 or 7 times what I'm making now. To many wannabes came into the market and watered down the pay rate and made it harder to prove your skill as compared to the average jerk who got a degree but has little personal interest in geekdom. They can do what they were trained for but they don't have large amounts of extra knowledge that makes them exceptional.

I think geeks need to be more organized. Not as a union but as a trade organization of some kind. Not everyone can become a doctor or a lawyer - they have to pass certain exams and have a certain amount of real world experience. Certifications help but they are often more a test of test taking experience than at real world skills. We need something more organized and rigid. Also I think taking the exams should be affordable enough to be accessible to anyone while passing the exam should be hard enough to weed out the posers. Exams should focus on more than one area. It's not enough to be a network admin or a programmer - real geeks are network admins and programmers and system admins and much more. It should be a test to prove who is really up to the title of being a geek. It should cover history, theory, and practical skills on all levels.

Re:I think you are off base

[bjourne]

with your criticism. This guy is sharing his observations with us. The fact of the matter is that this guy is squeezed. He has no budget for ramping up or internships or anything like that. His business is cut to the bone so he must hire a team of proven sluggers to get things done now. It's not his fault, it's a symptom of what's happening in the economy.

This guy has managers that has managers and somewhere high up, someone has decided that training unproven talent is not cost-effective. It is kind of a tragedy of the commons problem. Engineering talent is a resource that every IT company must share, just taking from the talent pool is most cost-effective for each individual company, but means that the pool will dry up. Training talent is not a smart strategy because, as the GP said, no company should expect the trainee to remain in the company.

The corporations themselves choose that way. They erased the concept of loyalty between empolyee and employer. Loyalty is for suckers when everyone at any time can be fired for what ever reason. If the corporations want to maximize their profit, then the employees will do likewise, jumping ship at the first opportunity. It is a situation that is optimal for each individually, but sucks at the whole.

Re:Sure it means we're poorer

[Attila Dimedici]

-it means we're poorer because we transitioned from a manufacturing economy
to a service economy in the 80's (and now import everything).
-and then all those jobs were outsourced in the 90's.

and if you don't think we're poorer - don't take my word for it - when you index mean salary against inflation
(and this is without !energy! & !food!) - you see a decrease in wage rate. And that my friend, is an economic *fact*.

and incidentally a 5.5% raise, means 5.5% of *fiat* money. it means I have 5.5% more paper in my pocket - how much
paper is out in the market (or in this case ledger entries) {which have *nothing* to do with import/export), is the
real question -- and I'ld be willing to bet that more effective money has been introduced in the market through
shoddy loans, then that 5.5% increase pay indicates should exist.

Lastly, it was raised, 5.5% since what? 2006? come on now. compare it 2000 or 99 and then I might be impressed.
And give me a total number of people employed so I can judge relative wealth (e.g. area underneath the histogram)

Just last week they released a study that indicates that the "poor" in the US today have a higher standard of living then the "poor" in the US in the early '70s. By way of anecdotal evidence, I grew up the youngest in a large family. Today, I have a good friend who has a large family. My friend's career track resembles that of my father, his wife's career resembles that of my mother. His family is significantly better off than my family was when I was growing up.

Re:Sure it means we're poorer

[paulgrant]

Just last week they released a study that indicates that the "poor" in the US today have a higher standard of living then the "poor" in the US in the early '70s

-- which is why at minimum wage, you'ld have to work two jobs, and put your wife to work to support 1 or 2 kids. because the standard of living is higher. right.

do you hear yourself?

and all those uninsured people, they must not want insurance - its so much more fun to get cancer and try fighting it off while working that aforementioned two jobs.

but I guess if you have those two jobs, at least you're lucky - how many people are *truly* unemployed? wait, I can't tell anymore because the administration STOPPED INCLUDING PEOPLE WHO WERE CHRONICALLY UNEMPLOYED in the unemployment report. people say, like programmers after the disasters of 2000 and 2001 (or anything else that was outsourced).

Call me up, when *you* wake up.

You're either severely uninformed (or a republican). Sometimes I think those two are synonomous.

And no I'm not a democrat -- but I do think that screwing 40%-60% of your population on a regular basis is a
*really* bad idea for the health of a country.

And don't even get me started on the abuse of illegals, (h1-b, l1-b, or tn-1) visa or migratory workers (e.g. non-citizens)