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Techie Pay Approaches All-time High
Stony Stevenson sent in this ITNews story which opens, "Techies were paid nearly record-high hourly wages in the third quarter, according to a new report released Thursday by staffing firm Yoh. Based on data compiled from 75 Yoh field offices and 5,000 technology professionals contracted in short and long-term projects, pay increased an average of more than 5.5 percent for the quarter ended Sept. 30, compared to the same period last year."
McDonald's workers were also paid more than any other time in history. If you are going to a study like this without adjusting for ever-present inflation, then of course you will constantly see new records.
> Compared to the same months in 2006, hourly wages for techies in 2007 rose 6 percent in July, 4.64 percent in August, and 5.79 percent in September.
Compared to the value of the US dollar against every major currency in 2006, hourly wages for US-based techies are still down 5-10% year over year.
pay increased an average of more than 5.5 percent for the quarter ended Sept. 30, compared to the same period last year.
Yeah, but it's in American Dollars, so the amount actually decreased.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Oil and most other necessities are also at record highs.
In other news... by Tackhead (54550) Friend of a FriendFoe of a Friend on Thursday October 25, @08:27PM (#21122141)
/me shakes fist at Tackhead
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
The first IT bubble taught us one thing: what's a good idea and what's a bad idea. Now that we figured that out, a second wave of technology money is washing over the world, only this time it's slower, more calculated, and less dumb. With articles all over the place saying that kids aren't getting into IT anymore, salaries will keep going up for skilled tech-savvy individuals who can get the job done.
The experimentation is over folks, it's time to get some real work done, and get paid handsomely for it since we are NOT a dime a dozen.
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
This is a link to a news source in Australia. They then link to informationweek.com, who is in the US. But I've never heard of the company who runs the survey they are talking about, so I have no way to know who was surveyed about their wages.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Pay there is DROPPING about 5% a year-both in actual pay and in the amount of responsibility for the same pay. As (clueless) broadcasting groups buy more stations, they expect the existing tech. staff to assume the burden of the extra work-with no more pay or assistance. The pay used to work out to about $15K per station. Then it dropped to 12K. Now it's at about $9K, which means that the average radio broadcast engineer makes about $60K for servicing 7 stations. This many stations means that all he's doing is running around putting out fires all the time.
They may mean USA, or maybe they mean wages in India?
The hottest skills sound about right. But, if you don't have 5 years recent experience already, you can forget about those area: SAP, Project Management, database administrators.
-shameless plug-
Please feel free to view my research on IT wages, collected in the Denver area, go here:
http://it-careers.pbwiki.com/
And click on "IT Salary Survey"
It's hard to know what conclusions to draw from this sort of thing unless they have a very well thought out metric and collect it consistently from year to year. For instance, the US has been gradually moving away from long-term employment with a regular paycheck and benefits (such as a pension and paid vacation) and towards contracting with fewer benefits and stability. I would certainly expect these contractors to receive more cash per hour, but that isn't the whole picture.
The other problem with this comparison is that this is only looking at contractor pay, not full-time employee salaries. As full disclosure, I work for a firm that provides IT Staffing as one of its services. Yes, certain in-demand skill sets are getting big bucks. Where I work locally, there have been so many positions posted for various C programmers that we simply can't find anymore, and the ones who will move for a short term or mid-term project are asking and, by and large, getting ridiculous salaries.
But when we do full-time placements, I'm not seeing a big increase. Not only that, but the majority of positions we filled this year were full-time placements.
So I think saying they are at an all-time high needs to be qualified: for certain contractors, which are the jobs where companies like Yoh are most likely to be placing candidates.
Bill
People forget that each H1-B visa lasts for basically 7 years. And that the limits were wildly expanded during the dot-com boom. Starting in 2000, they went from 65,000 to 130,000. And this continued well after the dot-com bust had happened. It was only in 2004 that the limits went back down to 65,000.
Since this limit wasn't expanded this year (yet), that means lots of H1-Bs are starting to go home. This is why all of the visas that were issued in April were gobbled up in a single day. And none of this is something that you'll see in the mainstream press.
So a lot of H1-B's are going home this year. The local labor market WILL get tighter, and wages WILL rise.
If the limits aren't expanded this year, it's unlikely they'll be expanded next year either, as that's a major election year.
If Hillary Clinton is elected though (which seems likely), you can expect them to again be doubled, as she's been aggressively promoting their expansion, even on her current website.
So, expect wages to go up, while the H1-B's go home. And enjoy it while it lasts, as it won't last forever.
It's just more proof that H1-B's are all about cheap labor and not about a lack of talent.
If you look at "techie wages" adjusted for the increased price of real estate in places like Silicon Valley, and the lessening of the security of those wages, especially approaching middle age, then you see the real reason why mere propaganda isn't going to draw young people into tech fields ever again.
Seastead this.
Could be a result of less entry level salaries among the workforce. I know when I broke into the industry, I made probably 1/3rd of what I make today.
So a lot of H1-B's are going home this year. The local labor market WILL get tighter, and wages WILL rise.
But, but, but that's IMPOSSIBLE. Because H1-Bs are paid PREVAILAING WAGES and are only necessary because there is INSUFFICIENT LOCAL TALENT!
Maybe I should check back and see if I can get that contracting job back that I lost to the H1-B.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
That translated to an average hourly tech worker wage of US$31.80
What is that in CAD? a loonie or so an hour?
[alk]
Too bad inflation is at 18%, as measured by the increase in the money supply. 10-15% measured by price increases, if you include the stuff the FED likes to leave out, you know, like housing, fuel, college education, health care, unimportant stuff like that which the average techie doesn't spend much of his income on.
Duh, when you outsource the bottom 1/3rd (fictitious number) of the workforce, you're left with the top 2/3rds... I'm suprised it only raised by 5.5%.
XE says the US dollar is worth about 96.6 Canadian cents.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
Hmm, doesn't look like most people here have a strong rostral anterior cingulate and amygdala
give this some insightful mod points ... it hits the nail on the head
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
I'm a manager at a tech outfit, a fairly large one.
What we are looking for are high end techies, and the wage inflation is due to our desperation to get high end techies - programmers and network admins the like.
A newb trying to get into this field has absolutely NO CHANCE.
Go look at the job ads and see what they're looking for as far as experience is concerned. You can't even meet those requirements with internships.
The wages are rising because America's pool of experienced techies is drying up, and fast. There are few to no new tech 'masters' rising in America; they're all coming from Asia, because that is where all the newb jobs are.
Those H-1 visas are coming here to compete with rock bottom wages, too.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
If you're having that much difficulty staffing your positions, maybe you need to rethink the requirements. You don't need an all-star team to run a tech shop, you really just need one star and a gaggle of willing juniors.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I believe there is "insufficient local talent" because most of the applicants that I see look good on paper, but lack at least one critical skill for the job (programming and engineering positions).
If they have a CS or Engineering degree, it's a safe assumption that they can be trained. Invest in your employees, it'll pay off.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
It's just more proof that H1-B's are all about cheap labor and not about a lack of talent.
Uh, that's like saying: "It's just more proof that one is smaller than two, and not that two is larger than one."
It doesn't make sense. Simple supply and demand - when talent of a particular flavor is lacking, the price for that talent climbs. People who pay for that talent probably want to increase supply and reduce demand. Those who have that talent want to decrease supply and increase demand.
Econ 101. Come back when you are familiar with this concept...
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Bingo - How do you think that people get experience? The WoW fairy?
Eventually wages will rise to the point that american businesses realize something they should of been thinking about years ago - You need people of all skill levels. Apprentices are necessary.
Heck, I was shocked to see that the USAF is finally acknowledging that - they would ramp up tech school training, give huge bonuses to keep people in(and get them in), then proceed to force people out when they went over their requirements. Result: Fields were unbalanced, with either too many higher ups or too many juniors. Now they're finally accepting that while things might be a little more 'unbalanced' in the short term, plotting further into the future is a good thing. Because then they can adjust course with a tap instead of a sledge.
Businesses need to realize this as well - while you might loose 80% of your apprentices to other jobs, you should keep at least some of them. Provide the right benefits and treat them right, and you might keep over half of those you want - making the program worth it as you collect talent from the beginning.
I don't read AC A human right
I have worked at a couple of places ( San Diego, CA ),
where I have been part of the process of selecting candidates
for available positions. In my recollection, we had
sufficient qualified candidates for these positions, and
were always able to fill them. Now, there are lots of
candidates who look good on paper, and are not in
practice. No doubt. It is real work finding people,
they are not going to jump in your lap.
Could it be that your company was offering low wages,
and keeping talent away? Is there something about your
company other than wages that keeps good people away?
Sounds like you are ending up with a bunch of wonks.
Personally, I think the outsourcing and H1B programs
have some culpability of late in diminishing the
pool of good candidates. Money talks in most
societies, and people entering college are looking at
the long term prospects, and they are not seeing
a career in programming and engineering.
emt 377 emt 4
The actual data indicates that during 2001-2006 tech salaries grew at 1-2% (which is less than inflation), and during 2006-2007 they grew at at 5% (which is more than inflation).
An obvious hypothesis is that the techie market was in disarray following the dotcom meltdown, during which techies lost real (inflation-adjusted) income. But now the market has recovered, and techies are experiencing wage gains faster than inflation because of cyclic recovery and pent-up demand.
Note that techie salaries are still below their Y2001 levels in inflation-adjusted terms. But then again, techie salaries were probably abnormally high during that period.
None of this is really that surprising.
Well, when I look at the list of requirements posted by many companies, I become acutely aware that it would be an extreme statistical improbability that anyone could have had the exact duration and breadth of experience that they mandate. In fact, it almost seems that they are being deliberately over-qualifying the position in order to avoid hiring local talent. One almost expects one of the requirements to read "must hold engineering degree from little-known Indian university."
I'll not get into the postings I have seen for companies requiring expertise in a third party software system that perhaps 10 or 20 companies in the world use, or worse yet, ones that require proficiency in a software system that was developed IN-HOUSE and only ever used by a small subset of the people in that company!
As a Manager, if I were to find someone that had strong skills in even 2/3 of the job areas that the job would encompass, I would gladly hire them, because someone with the ability to master 3 or 4 technical areas would have no problem picking up the one or two more that would be needed for the job.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
agreed, though I live in Miami, FL, USA.
Wages here are always low because of the high rate of immigration. The Hispanics are willing to work for peanuts. I'm not.
They're using their grammar skills there.
The thing is, you're in a very narrow market. You're failing to find the people you need, possibly because their talents are already put to work elsewhere. Or perhaps you're simply over-discounting the ability of a good engineer to learn new domains. Nobody wants to know ACPI unless they have to, but that doesn't mean they can't spend time reading the specs and do a good job making things.
On the other hand, I've seen seminars on how to advertise for a position and meet "insufficient local talent" laws, because what they're really after is a small army of moderately trained, but more importantly, cheap programmers. One technique could be to require an unusual skill set, say something like, "Experience with: Python, Ruby on Rails, Apache and uClinux kernel programming".
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
The actual data indicates that during 2001-2006 tech salaries grew at 1-2% (which is less than inflation), and during 2006-2007 they grew at at 5% (which is more than inflation). ...
Note that techie salaries are still below their Y2001 levels in inflation-adjusted terms.
I'm making more money than ever before in my life, but still struggling with consumer debt, driving a nearly decade-old car, and living in a house that's valued on the tax roles far more that I could ever sell it for, and it needs extensive repairs which I cannot afford today. Yet, my salary today is about the same as what the bigshot corporate VPs made, who lived in gorgeous big brand new suburbia houses and drove a brand new Lexus each year, at my first programming job out of college in the early-mid 1990's. My standard of living today in 2007 is roughly identical to what I had in 2001. All that seems different is I'm older, working harder and pumping a larger volume of dollars thru the system to maintain a status quo that doesn't slide backwards at too quick a rate.
Out-of-pocket expenses that were once the domain of the employer are not only the employee's responsibility now, but they're also at an all-time high. Health insurance for yourself and your family? You have got to be kidding. Too bad I can't tolerate the cold, I'd move to Canada. Or maybe I should move to Mexico, get my Mexican citizenship, and then sneak back in. Then I'd have healthcare.
I fail to see how people can miss it either, fuel, home heating, electricity rates, medical expenses and insurance, etc, all up WAY more than 4,5 or 6 percent over the past year most places. Food in particular people should be prepped for some serious sticker shock at the grocery store and at restaurants after the conclusion of this fall's grains harvest, the US does *not* stockpile grain like it used to to keep prices up. We used to have years worth of reserve, now we have at best a few weeks tops. Weeks. We have no practical backup food supply now, and what is there will be driven by cutthroat mercenary commodities brokers. You will be paying closer to what food really costs "real soon now". The US has had defacto subsidized food for *generations*. Biofuel demand is kicking in, it isn't going away, and the era of cheap food is now officially over, and you won't ever see it again. Never. Fixating on just a few cheaper electronic gadgets and prices is not the whole economy, or even the bulk of where people spend their money. And just wait until the loony tunes end times Armageddon Israel firsters hit Iran, hoo boy howdy you are going to see some price increases once the straits of hormuz are full of flaming tankers and half the middle east has production facilities on fire. Sky is the limit then on prices, as oil goes, so goes the world economy, and we will be seeing between 100 and 200 a barrel prices rippling through the economy in a very short time frame. There is very little "spare" production capacity to make up for the oily triangle flows globally, most places are already maxed out and it takes a long time to get new rigs in place. Even if the middle east is not the US primary source for oil, what oil we do get is still based on global prices, and them boys will get what they ask for it once 50% is taken off the market within a few days. And it's coming. This is going to be an economic tsunami, and those that can read this security ocean's signs will take precautions in advance, because waiting for the surge to hit is not the time to head for higher and safer ground.
There are few to no new tech 'masters' rising in America; they're all coming from Asia
Asia pays Masters better than in America relative to 4 year degrees. The "status" of a masters over a 4-yr has more feet in Asia. Asian cultures on average are more status-oriented than in the US, I would have to say, such that a big title is compensated better there relatively speaking. Plus, the title gets them laid more. Nerds are shunned in the US from a social perspective.
Further, universities tend to be out-of-date with regard to much of technology. Knowing more about 10-year-old technology than a Bachelors is not much of a pay booster. The US depends more on cutting-edge technology because commodity concepts get offshored. Thus, getting your face in the field earlier may be more useful than pursuing bigger degrees here.
Table-ized A.I.
Er, I've seen this issue pop up somewhere else before, but the percentage of food consumed in the US that is imported is a small minority. According to Reuter's, only about 15% of the food supply was imported a year ago. This is up from bit less than 10% a decade ago, but not overwhelmingly so. Do remember there is quite a bit of protectionism over US agriculture.
Yeah, the dollar is going in the toilet, but we don't import everything.
-it means we're poorer because we transitioned from a manufacturing economy
to a service economy in the 80's (and now import everything).
-and then all those jobs were outsourced in the 90's.
and if you don't think we're poorer - don't take my word for it - when you index mean salary against inflation
(and this is without !energy! & !food!) - you see a decrease in wage rate. And that my friend, is an economic *fact*.
and incidentally a 5.5% raise, means 5.5% of *fiat* money. it means I have 5.5% more paper in my pocket - how much
paper is out in the market (or in this case ledger entries) {which have *nothing* to do with import/export), is the
real question -- and I'ld be willing to bet that more effective money has been introduced in the market through
shoddy loans, then that 5.5% increase pay indicates should exist.
Lastly, it was raised, 5.5% since what? 2006? come on now. compare it 2000 or 99 and then I might be impressed.
And give me a total number of people employed so I can judge relative wealth (e.g. area underneath the histogram)
in Hong Kong technician or so-called engineer's wages always like diving ... LOW! Today's the "management" got highest pay whatever their ability is, they can mess up a company, walk away a few weeks, and get a job elsewhere doing the same things again and again....I saw quite a number of US and Japan "engineer" did their projects like a mess ... amazing LOW quality! I wonder WHERE the guys who taught us these valuable knowledge and experience
It should be clear if you put the above clues together: us slipshod US techies are training for management.
Table-ized A.I.
In my experience, most of the time the problem is not experience in advanced skills: those can be taught anyway. The problem tends to be the very basics, which most people from my graduating college class had in 1999. Many of the applicants seem to be unable to show much curiosity in an interview, and state that their goal is to be running the department in a matter of 3 or 4 years.
When it's hard to find talent for entry level positions, I can't imagine what it can be to have to replace someone with 10 years of experience. 5 people out of school and prayer?
Since this limit wasn't expanded this year (yet), that means lots of H1-Bs are starting to go home. So a lot of H1-B's are going home this year. The local labor market WILL get tighter, and wages WILL rise.
H-1B extensions are not counted towards the quota. People are going back because there are more growth opportunities in India and getting a Green Card is simply taking too long these days. No one wants to work as a software engineer for 6-10 years anymore just to get a Green Card. In India you can become a senior manager in the same time.
Why is it so terrible to learn ONE new skill on the job? Do you only hire robots?
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
with your criticism. This guy is sharing his observations with us. The fact of the matter is that this guy is squeezed. He has no budget for ramping up or internships or anything like that. His business is cut to the bone so he must hire a team of proven sluggers to get things done now. It's not his fault, it's a symptom of what's happening in the economy.
If you think that flaming at him will solve any of the problems you mention, you are mistaken. You would do much better to find some way to understand his predicament and maybe try to help him to steer things in a more positive direction.
Maybe in Australia techs are well paid. I don't think they are here in the US.
I make less than I did 10 years ago and my cost of living is at least twice as much and the skill and experience required is far far more than what was required 10 years ago. My experience is that most companies these days are rather cheap when it comes to paying their geeks. I didn't even go for the high paying job offers I had back then - if I had, then I would have been making 6 or 7 times what I'm making now. To many wannabes came into the market and watered down the pay rate and made it harder to prove your skill as compared to the average jerk who got a degree but has little personal interest in geekdom. They can do what they were trained for but they don't have large amounts of extra knowledge that makes them exceptional.
I think geeks need to be more organized. Not as a union but as a trade organization of some kind. Not everyone can become a doctor or a lawyer - they have to pass certain exams and have a certain amount of real world experience. Certifications help but they are often more a test of test taking experience than at real world skills. We need something more organized and rigid. Also I think taking the exams should be affordable enough to be accessible to anyone while passing the exam should be hard enough to weed out the posers. Exams should focus on more than one area. It's not enough to be a network admin or a programmer - real geeks are network admins and programmers and system admins and much more. It should be a test to prove who is really up to the title of being a geek. It should cover history, theory, and practical skills on all levels.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I didn't get into this field because I wanted money. I got into it because I loved working on computers and I thought it would be a great way to make a living. Many people in the late 90's would tell me how much they hated computers and were only in it for the money. I hope that attitude doesn't come back. Last thing I want is to work with an overpaid incompetent tech that doesn't know what an inode is or a tech that thinks the Windows command line went away with W2k. I believe that the salaries stabilized over the last 7-10 years and the wages for people in the Computers field is fair for the employees and employers. I remember the salaries back in the late 90's it was easy to make anywhere between 100,000 to 200,000 a year and some employers would even throw in a BWM as your own company car. I believe the people who love their craft and stayed around after the bubble will gain all the financial benefits from sticking around and will still have the pleasure of working on computers. On the other hand Admins today are asked to do more with less and sacrifice more time for their employers. If the Admins are making more money today it's because they have earned it.
This distinction between paying for welfare from current income or from investment is often made, but is essentially irrelevant. The crucial question is how much of our national economic capacity should we allocate to non-productive members of society? Once you've decided on this, it doesn't much matter whether you achieve it through an entitlement to a portion of corporate profits (i.e. having bought shares) or an entitlement to a portion of wages (i.e. payroll and income taxes) .
I disagree with you on the point that we shouldn't have some form of welfare/social security. Social handouts, as you so eloquently stated, are meant to help a community and to prevent it from collapsing upon itself. Consider an event where a major corporation fires thousands of people for whatever reason. The community may not be able to reabsorb all those potential workers and those people may not have reserve funds to keep them or their families sheltered and fed. Now, if these people want to survive, they may not be above breaking the law. In which case, a handout can help many people through hard times. Sure, there may be leeches, but not everyone is going to have the same (bare minimum) standard of living and the cost of added stability should offset the risk of total anarchy. Perhaps our current incarnation of taxes, welfare, and social security suck, then they should be revised or replaced. I concede that I don't know how or if it is even possible to do such a thing. Otherwise, most of your points are pretty valid.
Small H-1B caps and become a tech worker, large H-1B caps and invest in software businesses (which is where the profit goes) nothing to see here, move along...
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
See this is why you don't work for family for free.
5.5% pay on gratis is still nothing.
Pineapples are evil ~!
Unfortunately for me, I'm paid in US dollars, but I have significant Canadian dollar expenses.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
How can you compare pay rate to a contract agency? For some things you do, you can get paid very high rates for. They will also rip you off in a heartbeat. I ended up getting out of my contract because it was actually cheaper to bring me on fulltime, than pay those guys.
But, on the other hand, their contracts are much better than other companys out there. We have some guys who truely are getting screwed. At least Yoh will give you a paid vacation and has a 401k plan. One other nice thing they did was, they would put in your contract that it wasn't required to work holidays (at least for the company I was at).
Oh yeah- even New Zealand is more interesting.
OSx86 FTW
First of all, this is not a matter of giving handouts. People are not widget-producing robots. Even your veterans might benefit from teaching an apprentice by gaining greater understanding of a topic or at least getting a break from their usual routine. Your team might benefit from having a younger person's energy, perspective, or generational/(sub-)cultural knowledge. Why is it that businesses are so quick to tout the advantages of racial diversity on a team, yet so daft as to see that such benefits clearly extend onto diversity of age and thought as well?
You see, at some point, investors and business managers are going to need to realize that their businesses MUST to look farther in the future than next financial quarter if they want to seriously compete in the next century, and that absolutely requires making investments into the generalized workforce. It's not a handout if you stand to gain some objectively benefit, now is it?
-Grym
The question "how much of our national economic capacity should we allocate to non-productive members of society?" is best answered by members of the society. "Society" is a term that refers to a specific social group. Typically, this group has a large say in the allocation of national economic capacity ;-)
>>Well, in how many fields could you expect to be paid high wages as an entry-level beginner, with little experience and no specialty?
I have actually done some research on it. As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as entry level Oracle DBA, or SAP whatever. Even if you're willing to work for minimum wage, even if you have certifications and/or a college degree.
I suspect that's the reason that those jobs pay so well - it would be nearly impossible to get started, especially with SAP. You can teach yourself ms-access, html, css, javascript, php, etc. you can even create projects to show you know what you are doing. You can always find some small business that needs some work - even if it doesn't pay well. But SAP? How do you learn that?
So my point is: if you're not already an Oracle DBA, or a SAP consultant, it doesn't do you any good to know how well those jobs pay. Either you already have years of recent, verifiable experience, or those jobs are not for you.
At least, that's the way the situation in Denver looks to me.
Ha! Was trying to be funny - making sense is a start. I recomment previewing ;-) Excuse: I'm at a course and shouldn't be typing this at all.
Rephrased, the people who have the money want to hang on to it, not use it so support people who smell...
Until the M3 figures were pulled by the Fed, the dollar was inflating at around 8-10% per year. It's speculated that has increased since to around 15%. The Pound is inflating at around 15% per year and the Euro by about 12%.
http://www.ecb.int/press/pr/stats/md/html/index.en.html
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/m4/current/
The CPI and RPI figures are there to keep the ignorant and stupid (That's you... Pick one) happy.
Currencies are becoming rapidly worthless, I recommend you avoid them.
Deleted
You sound like an academian. Here in the real world, in IT, it all comes down to x years of experince with y products. Employers, and academians, give lip service to all that stuff about communication skills, and critical thinking, etc. But, when it comes to actually hiring somebody, they want a long laundry list of experience with several specific products. Take a look at the job ads, if you don't believe me.
As far as income taxes go, that is correct. The reasoning behind saying that the poor pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes is that there are more taxes than just income. A major one is sales tax. Those with less income are more likely to spend a higher percentage of their paycheck, which increases the sales tax they pay. Money put in banks doesn't require the payment of sales tax, so the more you put in the bank, the less you spend in sales tax, as a percentage of income.
warning: This post is likely to contain gobs of dripping sarcasm. Consume at your own risk.
That has nothing to do with rich and poor though, that's the sense of entitlement that people have nowadays. I am going to be "rich" one day, simply because I live signifigantly beneath my means and save for investments in fields that I've studied. The fact that I started with less than nothing is the whole reason I do it. That is totally people listening to ads and TV talking about how they "deserve" stuff. The "poor" may be a little more susceptible to it because of escapism, but rich mofo's think they deserve more than they have as well. Hell my sense of wanting more than I have is the whole reason I work toward having more. I just don't get deluded into thinking "stuff right now" equals "rich". This is far more an issue with education than rich/poor.
The problem tends to be the very basics, which most people from my graduating college class had in 1999.
It sounds like you're in a hiring position. Does your business sponsor/support the local schools? It sounds like your business might benefit long term by lobbying/sponsoring the local schools to get them back to teaching the basics you see lacking instead of things like klingon language courses.
Many of the applicants seem to be unable to show much curiosity in an interview, and state that their goal is to be running the department in a matter of 3 or 4 years.
You should of course hire the best you can get - as for running the department, tell them they'd have to prove that they're the best available - IE they'll have to be hot stuff to meet that goal; they'll have to earn it.
When it's hard to find talent for entry level positions, I can't imagine what it can be to have to replace someone with 10 years of experience. 5 people out of school and prayer?
Ideally you'd do it much like the military does. They still think in terms of careers and progression. IE they KNOW they're going to loose that guy with 10 yrs of experience sometime(though 20 is the standard). So they try to avoid having anything dependant upon one person. Indeed, they have a career progression track*. People come in, bottom of the pack, moving up through the years by talent, drive, and sheer inertia. The 20 year senior enlisted retires - they promote somebody a step to replace him.
So in your 10 years of experience case - there should be a guy with 8 to take over, somebody with 6 to replace the guy, 4,2, and you hire somebody new out of college.
Does it still hurt? Yes - but it's planned for.
*I'm thinking enlisted
I don't read AC A human right
You will also find that the US deficit as a percent of GDP is lower than all of the other G7 countries except the UK and France (which is tied with us). Claiming that the dollar has been massively inflated to pay for the war in Iraq is hogwash. We have been paying for it by sale of public debt, not by printing money. M2 has been growing at about 6% a year. By comparison, it has been growing at 15.5% in the UK and 7.5% in Canada. The Eurozone M1 growth has been around 6.1%.
While I am really, really pissed off at having to pay for an unnecessary and incompetently fought war, we have a long way to go before the cost becomes an economic nightmare. Where the impact is being most felt is in the lost opportunity cost of road maintenance, healthcare for children, fully funding Social Security, and R&D of non-greenhouse gas producing power sources among other things.
Here is what the Fed stated about M3:
M3 does not appear to convey any additional information about economic activity that is not already embodied in M2 and has not played a role in the monetary policy process for many years. Consequently, the Board judged that the costs of collecting the underlying data and publishing M3 outweigh the benefits.
Yes, IAAE.
FreeSpeech.org
There was a time that there were true entry level jobs in customer service, or operations. I have a friend who started as an operator way back when, now he earns over $100K/year as a sysadmin. The guy is smart, but never even graduated high-school. But, as you said, those days are gone. Those entry level jobs have been offshored.
You can not get a decent job until you have experience, and with much of entry level gone, you can't get experience.
I hereby sentence you to 1 semester of remedial math or econ. Take your pick. ;)
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Silicon Valley.
I don't know anything about Casper. Casper the friendly ghost town?
Meaning, it's been higher. Why not report that in the headline? "Techie pay still less than previously" provides a lot less reason to lower techie pay...
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Mostly companies seem to go for people in college as interns- that way they can get them cheap and then hire them (as experienced) once they graduate. I don't know of anyone hiring graduates as interns. As far as a degree and no experience goes, it's pretty hard to find a job still.
You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
Last week h1-bs were driving down salaries. We are in a doomed industry!
Suddenly wages are at an all time high. Damn. This good news really sucks.
But.. wait for it... H1-bs are driving down low end salary! We are in a doomed industry!
New graduate wages are increasing. Damn.
http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/article/2442/good-news-for-computer-science-grads-sort-of
Well, We are STILL DOOMED! DOOOOOMED!!!!
Like hell it doesn't matter. One is a decision made voluntarily, the other is made (if made at all, I certainly don't get a say in how much FICA tax I pay) under the threat of force (garnishment, imprisonment, death in a shootout with government agents, etc).One is accepting that human beings are, in fact, human beings, and the other reduces them to the level of a meat cow.
Jesus is coming -- look busy!
Social Security and Medicare tax have a fixed rate, but stop at a certain amount paid in per year. Makes sense, I suppose, in that the payouts will be the same in the end (although, when you think about it, those paying higher levels of income tax really don't get anything extra for their money either).
Jesus is coming -- look busy!
If the dollar is inflating at 10% a year, and you're only getting a 5% per year raise (generous), your pay is decreasing 5% per year.
That means after 10 years, the American middle class is making 60% of what they were previously.
Add in the massive job cuts of companies and jobs moving to China and India and you have in a nutshell why the middle class in the US is doomed to extinction.
Is this a news report or a trailer for a motion picture?
..been in all the headlines lately, mortgages are sold upstream and in huge quantities to people outside the US. A lot of the housing market money gets offshored, and there's more of it in the financing than in the actual construction. So those homes are offshored in economic reality.
Once you get down to it, very few people actually "own" their home nowadays, except for some older retired folks and people still working in the upper middle class to rich zones, probably only 2% or so (that's a SWAG) of the homeowners there in the still working class.
Reading your website, I see that you're also stuck in Oklahoma City, that vibrantly thriving megopolis of the I.T. market.
Yes, but the ridiculous cost of living in the thriving IT areas is causing some companies to move to lower cost areas. So areas like Oklahoma City, which are big enough to have a decent infrastructure and talent base, but reasonable costs of living SHOULD benefit.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
IT recruiters are notorious for not knowing anything about technology. All they do is match key-words. Certainly they don't consider stuff like:"hmm, this guy has an aptitude for music, might make a good programmer."
IT recruiters is rarely done for the company that does the hireing. Often it's more like multi-level marketing. I'm working three contracts deep right now. A company doesn't want an outside recruiter to evaluate soft skills, instead they just hand the recruiter a long list of products knowledge that they want.
I also think there are just too many people trying to break in to IT today, and you can't count on an IT person staying very long, and you don't know when your own needs will change. Train somebody in SAP, then that person gets a better job else-where. Or, your company is purchased by another company that doesn't use SAP, or the entire department is getting offshored next year.
From my experience, friends and family, who are outside of the IT field, don't really understand what I do. I have this to be a major problem with the networking approach.
Also, available jobs often go right to the recruiters, nobody knows about them before that.
Networking services like linkedin are a joke.
So if job ads are not the right approach, what is?
Maybe it's because the jobs R flocking to Silicon Valley.
FICA is capped, I don't remember offhand but above a certain income level you don't pay in at all.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Looks like the got rich off the system and its (public) infrastructure.
I'd say that's something.
To say nothing of the fact that if we shifted enough of the tax burden to the lower classes to compensate for equalizing the rich/poor tax rate, those rich people would be the first against the wall in the inevitable revolution that would follow.
Preventing an uprising is probably in their best interest, and worth a few $ to them.
There's also that whole "marginal utility" thing, but whatever.
.."Neither is directly effected by external forces as both are entirely driven by local supply and demand."...HAHAHAHAHA! You need to go run that by some actual professional economists, then we'll talk.
cheap does not always mean bad. similarly expensive does not always mean good.
most the h1b's have not gone home after their visa has expired. they have gotten their green cards and are working here in US - yours truly included. A lot of them have and still going back because there is more interesting work being done overseas now.
what has happened is that the talentless and expensive workers ( US and non-US workers) who got into IT because it was good paying during the boom are no longer thankfully in the IT field as a result of all layoffs. they have moved to other more lucrative industries.
the people who are left are more experienced, skilled workers - H1B's , former H1B's and US workers included.
How is that different from any other job in the company?
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Let's start with China. They have large investments in our currency. So what? Why do you think you can't email the words "freedom" or "democracy" to China? Because of all the places on Earth where people live, the citizens of China know that their own national government is responsible for their problems. Not some local warlord or the dictator of the moment as in other countries where most citizens live in grinding poverty, but the Communist Party that has been in power since 1945. So, let the hyper-privileged Party Members try to tinker with our money supply. Money is a symbol, and the Chinese people would all prefer a green paper symbol of freedom than a 1 pound gold brick, if that brick was stamped with the likeness of Mao Tse-Tung, or any of their national rulers since. You're blowing smoke, nothing more.
1. Which main banker? What's your source? At the very least, credibility demands you post 1 URL to accompany such tall tales.
2. Why should a slashdot reader who is not a member of China's Communist Party or of Comintern think there's any problem when the Chinese "have no idea whatsoever how many dollars are being put into circulation"?
A more general comment on your various references to economics and crisis situations: in crisis situations the economic laws that prevail in times of stability are replaced fast enough to minimize the type of damages you're trying to portray as likely. I did not enjoy The Grapes of Wrath, but I'm told by people who lived through it that its portrayal of barter economics and the like is quite accurate. You should read it, both because it will teach you something about real people in economic crises and because I hope you find the experience as annoying as I did.
All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..
Couldn't say what the market has been like outside the city, though.
What you need is a little concept called attrition planning. So you have the one guy (or gal) with 10 years, well, were they working alone ? Barring exceptional circumstances, you should have a next-in-command ready to step up. It's never perfectly seamless, but if you've been flying high with the lone gunman for 10 years with no backup planning, you brought it onto yourself.
It is well worth it, more often than not, to have a bit of redundancy in your business. If that means paying an apprentice to shadow the only guy who knows X-task, then you do it before that guy leaves for a nicer job where he will be able to take a day off from time to time. Far better to pay an extra salary now, than lose a few months' worth of business because no one's there to do the job. HR is a heck of a lot more than just doing interviews and payroll.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
> those paying higher levels of income tax really don't get anything extra for their money either.
This isn't actually true. Figuring out how much people take out of the system, vs what they put in can be kind of tricky, but generally the richer you are the more government resources you use.
Obviously, the rich don't take out welfare. However, they do tend to spend more time in civil court. Additionally, the government is generally much more responsive to the needs of the wealthy than the poor. For instance, police tend to ignore crime in poor neighborhoods. If someone is murdered in a wealthy vs a poor neighborhood, it effects a lot whether any investigation or prosecution will happen. Generally the wealthy, who are potential campaign donors have their interests met by local, state, and federal politicians. Corporations in particular spend a lot of money on lobbiests to get special tax breaks and to have regulations changed to their benefit.
I'm generally in favor of lower taxes and a smaller government, but I have to admit that it's only fair that the wealthy pay for their larger stake in our society.