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38% of Downloaders Paid For Radiohead Album

brajesh sends us to Comscore for a followup on the earlier discussion of Radiohead making $6-$10 million on their name-your-own-cost album "In Rainbows" — with the average price paid being between $5 and $8. Comscore analyzes the numbers: "During the first 29 days of October, 1.2 million people worldwide visited the 'In Rainbows' site, with a significant percentage of visitors ultimately downloading the album. The study showed that 38 percent of global downloaders of the album willingly paid to do so, with the remaining 62 percent choosing to pay nothing... Of those who were willing to pay, the largest percentage (17 percent) paid less than $4. However, a significant percentage (12 percent) were willing to pay between $8-$12, or approximately the cost to download a typical album via iTunes, and these consumers accounted for more than half (52 percent) of all sales in dollars."

109 of 562 comments (clear)

  1. So the big question is... by White+Flame · · Score: 5, Interesting

    did they make more or less profit than what they would have made with the standard sales method?

    1. Re:So the big question is... by Selfbain · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would imagine they only get 1-2 dollars per CD from a label so probably a lot more.

      --
      Well, it has never been successfully tested.
    2. Re:So the big question is... by grub · · Score: 5, Funny


      did they make more or less profit than what they would have made with the standard sales method?

      Standard sales method:(per $)
      $.53 to record company
      $.27 to record execs' Mercedes fund
      $.18 to record execs' cigar fund
      $.02 to Radiohead.

      New distribution method:(per $)
      $.01 to bandwidth costs
      $.99 to Radiohead

      meah I made that all up.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    3. Re:So the big question is... by Goffee71 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the point is they get 100% of the money from any sales and control over their work, rather than the few cents/yen/whatever they'd get from a record company... I paid a couple of quid for it because a) I don't know much Radiohead stuff but b) want more acts to release music this way... Sure you can only do this if you have a decent fan base, perhaps the next act will put a minimum £/$2 price on it to discourage the freeloaders/guarantee some income but its got to be better than rushing a record for release and for the label to screw you over and having to do all the marketing crap they demand... "Yeah I'm real excited to be here at Radio Alaska/Guam/Telford/Dresden..." When that time could be spent making more/better music.

      --
      If he's the Walrus then can I be a penguin please?
    4. Re:So the big question is... by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well six+ million dollars from a single album isn't too bad. Most bands probably make less then $2 per album so that would be three million albums sold.
      I have never heard anything by RadioHead. I almost want to download the a song or two and if I like them then pay for the album. The downside is I would be counted as both a no pay and as a pay.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:So the big question is... by TheLostSamurai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The downside is I would be counted as both a no pay and as a pay. Which points out another glaring problem with these statistics. How many people downloaded the album just to try it out then later decided it was worth a few bucks and went back to pay for it?
      --
      I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
    6. Re:So the big question is... by Richthofen80 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I mean, it might be the best way for RADIOHEAD to distribute their album, since they're already rich and can front the capital to self-distribute. They also got a ton of free publicity due to the novel business model. They also had a ton of existing fans who were waiting for this.

      But if you're the next great band, and no one knows who you are, you might want the label to push your product for you, while you focus on just making the music and touring.

      If it were really that simple, everyone would be doing it.

      --
      Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
    7. Re:So the big question is... by no_opinion · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here, check my math:
      38% of 1.2 million people pay $6 = $2.736 million.

      According to this article http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/search/google/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001017730, their last album sold over 900,000 copies in the US alone, so let's guess they did 1.5 million (which would be a pretty poor showing, internationally). At $2/album from the major that means that they'd get $3 million.

      So depending on whether the download cannibalized their CD sales this time around, they might come out slightly ahead.

    8. Re:So the big question is... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not the per-gb cost so much as the size of the pipe. I'll wager to distribute an album you're going to want a big pipe to handle a good many simultaneous connections of files that probably average 10-15mb each (I haven't gone there so I don't know precisely how it's distributed; one big MP3 or as individual songs). That's going to cost a lot more than $70 per month.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re:So the big question is... by AvitarX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "b) want more acts to release music this way."

      The problem is that once a lot (or eve a few more) people do it this way the I want more people to do this demographic is not guaranteed (works the same way with Linux games I imagine, the developers of cross platform games probably get a large (more than the 1-3% of users) Linux base, but because we want to encourage them (at least I know I've purchased over priced and old games for $30+ instead of the $10 bargin bin it would have been).

      Radiohead reaped massive publicity that noone the next person will get half as much of, and soon no publicity will come with it.

      That being said, magnatunes is awesome and has a lot of artists with name your price ($5 minimum) if you want to encourage more).

      I purchased the album at $9.00 (I wanted to do $8.00, but the fee got me). I have always believes $5-$10 was the correct price for an album, and when given the choice I figured I should do it. Magnatunes says their average sale is about $7.50 so my theory bears out to point.

      Magnatunes gives 50% to the artist, and keeps the rest for themself, which is a decent deal for both (magnatunes I assume incurs all costs). They also vet the bands so as a customer you aren't wading through shit to get the goodsm thewy also stream full tracks (my current amarok playlist is all streamed magnatunes.

      I am simply a happy magnatunes customer, not a employee BTW.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    10. Re:So the big question is... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Then it sounds like a band would want to hire a promoter. I don't see why a band should need to sign over their copyrights and/or lock themselves into a 10-year contract just to get some promotion services. It would make more sense to just hire a promotion company who works for a fixed cut of the proceeds, like the band's manager most likely does.

      Traditionally, a record label's value-add was as a gatekeeper with access to the cartel-like retail channels. Those channels are rapidly diminishing in importance as the world moves towards downloaded music. Artists won't have nearly as much reason to sign away all of their control just to be able to access the market.

    11. Re:So the big question is... by Richthofen80 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Its not just retail channels. Its MONEY. Producing an Album Costs MONEY. Lots of it. Record companies give the band access to studios and time with industry professionals who add polish and shine to the music.

      Record companies often PAY the band up front, so they can enjoy a comfortable standard of living while making an album. The record company amortizes income for the band instead of having them starve until they're uber-famous.

      Record companies have huge marketing efforts. They can make posters, promote with other cross channel media in order to educate the public about the product. This is the kind of stuff that's too expensive for a small band. You might argue that the internet is a great promo tool, but I'd argue that the internet is a self-reinforcing marketing tool... people who already know about the band use it more than people who don't... educating people who AREN'T fans is where traditional marketing excels. they tie the music and band to existing brands, events or items (like the super bowl halftime show, etc), so that people learn about the band.

      Record Companies provide big tour buses and relationships with web site designers and access to top-of-the-line instruments and equipment and get the band onto tours with bigger acts. This is all bigger than a promoter.

      --
      Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
    12. Re:So the big question is... by Myopic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have never heard anything by RadioHead

      OMG, dude, do yourself the favor. (It's Radiohead, by the way.) Radiohead is in my top three favorites, and most fans have them at number one. Their album Kid A is my favorite album of all time -- er, maybe second favorite. Try Kid A and Amnesiac to start. If you think those are the best albums ever, you are with me; if you think they are too experimental, then go back and try their earlier albums, OK Computer and Pablo Honey, which played to a wider audience (but weren't as capital-G Good).

      Also, they did have a couple big radio hits. You have probably heard Karma Police, which is a decent hit, but far from their best song.

      I'm a bad fan; I haven't heard Rainbows yet.

    13. Re:So the big question is... by FreelanceWizard · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, record companies advance the band up front, which isn't quite the same as paying them. The advance is paid out of the royalties of the album sales, so in essence, the record company is just giving them a loan. The record companies try to recoup 100% of all expenses out of royalties; this includes music videos, tours, production costs, many forms of advertising, and more. Even the band's producer is paid by the band out of a 100% recouped advance. About the only things that aren't 100% recoupable are actual pressing costs and distribution. Music publishing, you see, has very little to do with most other forms of publishing.

      I recommend Donald Passman's "All You Need To Know About the Music Business" for a good overview of what record companies actually do, what the average royalties per CD sold actually are, and how recoupable advances can drive popular bands into bankruptcy. You'll discover all sorts of fun tidbits, like the 20% breakage fee on royalties (a holdover from the days of vinyl that bands are stuck with now). No, I'm not shilling -- I've read it, and it's quite enlightening.

      To get back to the overriding question, the answer is almost assuredly yes. Radiohead most likely made more money off the download sales than they would have off a physical CD sale, since their royalties per CD are likely less than $3.

      --
      The Freelance Wizard
    14. Re:So the big question is... by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Its not just retail channels. Its MONEY. Producing an Album Costs MONEY. Lots of it.

      Back in the days of monster sound boards, specialized recording equipment, a special sound-tight room and all that crap, sure.

      Nowadays a somewhat-pro sound guy with a used Macintosh, the right software, and a small sound board, could do the whole shebang in a room lined with the appropriate sound-deadening material. Like a spare bedroom rigged for just that purpose.

      It's not too hard to rig up, and the biggest expenses would be the Mac and the software that runs on it. An enterprising guy could set aside some dough and time to set up his own in-home shop, producing a very decent product in the meanwhile.

      Or you could just check into a local studio, where the prices would be hella reasonable compared to some Sony/EMI/Whoever-owned studio.

      Marketing isn't this big cloudy mystery that most people peg it as. Get playtime and interviews on the local radio station (in many larger cities, yes they do exist and thrive, and are not owned by ClearChannel). Do charity gigs. Pass word around online through donated royalty-free play on streaming Internet radio*. Pass around (or hire some kids to pass around) some CD's at the local high school. Do free podcasts. Hire a local web marketer and a local promoter to get your name out. Open for semi-bigger acts when they come to town. Play at the local "Big Ass" music festival (Salt Lake City, Utah had one yearly with that name).

      I just described what many of the 50's, 60's and 70's bands did to get their names out, before the RIAA put a stranglehold on it all.

      If you're good and not too un-lucky, word gets out and you get better recognition. Sure, it takes a bit longer than the synthetic "stars" that an RIAA house will shovel out, but you have more fun in the long-run and you won't end up being sucked dry in the process.

      /P

      * Streaming radio? Hell yes! I've discovered more good, solid bands that way in the past four years, than through any other means.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    15. Re:So the big question is... by Threni · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > meah I made that all up.

      So did comScore;

      > the results of the study are based on data obtained from comScore's worldwide database of 2 million people who have provided comScore with explicit
      > permission to monitor their online behavior.

      How representative is comScore's list of monitored users of the sort of people who download Radiohead cds?

    16. Re:So the big question is... by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They can make posters, promote with other cross channel media in order to educate the public about the product.

      "Educate the public?!"

      Bah.

      You'd think that people didn't have a natural NEED or DRIVE to CONSUME, PERFORM and SHARE music. The record industry corrupts commercial radio with payola, flogs the same cruddy musicians with posters for years on end, sues Internet radio stations, sues online guitar tablature sites like Olga out of existence, sits on copyrights until the recordings are historical, installs rootkits on our PCs, and they charge everyone money for playing or performing any recordings.

      If the music industry put 1/10 of the effort that the film industry put into promotion, I don't think we'd have a problem.

      Top ways that new music has reached me since 1994:

      1. Piracy
      2. My local pub
      3. College Radio
      4. Word of mouth
      5. The film industry

      Aside from getting an album on a shelf in a CD store, they do NOTHING to promote music. In fact, they couldn't do more to repress music if they tried.

      Down with commercial radio, and down with the record industry.

    17. Re:So the big question is... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sorry but that's not true any more.

      Somehow, you can produce a record for $50k privately but it costs a million for the studio to do it.
      Some how you can make and distribute posters for $10k but it costs the studio's $500k to do it.

      The fact is that there is too much bloat in the radio industry. There is no real competition.

      You have people paying the studios 2 cents per download for vinyl record breakage.

      You have 10 people work two months to edit and produce a record from the finished music and it costs a million dollars for some reason.

      Music editing equipment USED to be expensive. Now, you can mix music on a PC that costs well under $10k.

      There is no reason that Radiohead now cannot get smaller bands to pay them to be their warmup band. Hold an audition, take $10k up front for being allowed to have a warmup tour. And you don't have to sell your copyrights and your musical soul. Businesses ruthlessly cut costs related to employees. It's time for musicians to ruthlessly cut costs related to the music industry.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    18. Re:So the big question is... by Knuckles · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    19. Re:So the big question is... by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Producing an Album Costs MONEY. Lots of it.

      Really? I'll haveto tell my friend that produced several albums that he owes someone LOTS OF MONEY. Because he did not spend it.

      He built a recording studio in his basement for less than $6700.00US. It's soundproof with double walls and isolation as well. A computer with a decent recording card and he can record 8 seperate audio channels at once. He rarely uses all 8. He produces HD audio records that sound at least 90,000 better than anything produced by event he best engineers that BMI or SONY has on staff.

      Over the last 6 albums he publish and sold he spent under $12,000.00 total. Less than $2000.00 per album.. that is incredibly insane dirt fricking cheap.

      Who do I need to call and have collect the Lots of money from him? He's scamming someone somehow by doing it himself like tens of thousands of artists do.

      Only those that believe the BS that the RIAA shovel believeit costs a lot of money to produce an album.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    20. Re:So the big question is... by jinxidoru · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bare in mind that the album has only been out for a short-time. I can't imagine that all of those 1.5 million purchases occurred in the same time-frame as we are looking at so far for this release. For example, I will probably go download the album but have not gotten around to doing so. Therefore, the $2.736 number will be increasing. And $2.736 is pretty close to $3.

    21. Re:So the big question is... by delong · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why would you? It's in a zip file. Let's stop trying to justify this. Over 60% were given the opportunity to pay for the music, at any price, and didn't. That puts the lie to the "oh, it's overcharged" argument. There's always lots of talk about "greedy corporations" here, but let's face it. Slashdotters are willing to take without compensating their favorite artists without blinking an eye. That's greed.

    22. Re:So the big question is... by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not much different than some other guy setting up his own small business venture, you know?
      That's true. Starting a business is exactly what it is. Like starting a business, joining a larger company is often a great way to secure your success. The thing that defines this is the incredible amount of risk associated with it. In any other business, it is completely possible to make your product/service superior to anything similar from any other outlet. That's not true with music. You will have to constantly compete with people sharing your music for free. It's exactly the same product, just for free. Obviously copyright law isn't enough to deter people from doing it and since you won't personally have the resources to defend your copyright, you will just have to take piracy in your stride, but it still eats significantly into your prospects for profit. If you're a hobbyist, sure. You can be content with making the music and sticking it on some website. If you're serious about profiting from music, the risk too high for most.

      I do have one bit to pick in your post, though... the RIAA won't guarantee you against failure. If your band (or enterprise, rather) goes 'splat', they'll certainly want to recover their money from you. If you fail, you're on your own when it comes to paying back all those fees (and the advance).
      Hmm. I was under the impression that the RIAA members would try to recover costs through producing other albums (perhaps with you taking a lesser role in the creative side of things). That's the point: they foot the bill if they happen to be wrong in assessing your talent. Otherwise, no-one would go to them, because they might as well take out a business loan.

      As for creativity perspective, sure - if you're wanting nothing more than to appeal to the mainstream. OTOH, aren't most bands and singers out to do something unique and memorable?
      Wrong and wrong. Bands/singers are out to do a variety of things. Some are out there just so they can say they created something unique and memorable. Some are out there trying to make something memorable (mainstream pop, I'm looking at you), some are out there trying to create something enjoyable, others are trying to create something profitable. The RIAA does NOT just produce "mainstream" music (in the musical sense, not in the popularity sense). They have a variety of genres and artists they produce. Of course, they will push hardest the most fashionable music, which will always have musical elements in common. Those elements are what define it as fashionable. However, that doesn't mean that the RIAA produces ONLY mainstream music. There are plenty of people out there (like you and me) to justify investing in other musical styles. They may not be marketed so aggressively, and they may not be so prolific, but they are there. That's one advantage of the RIAA over the at home, over the internet business model: the spectrum of produced music is skewed only by popularity (and therefore tastes), rather than the technical/financial limitations of the set-up, or the specific tastes of the internet-savvy demographic.
      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    23. Re:So the big question is... by JebusIsLord · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I haven't downloaded it yet, but I'm going to, and I don't plan on paying.

      Why?

      Because I'm gonna buy it on CD next year! I want a lossless copy and their constant-bitrate MP3s just don't cut it. Why should I pay for the album twice?

      I own hundreds of CDs, and I'm not going to pay. Do you think i'm especially unique? I think the REAL message will be delivered come 2008, when this free, 6 month old album goes PLATINUM.

      --
      Jeremy
    24. Re:So the big question is... by zentu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This doesn't even include the fact that Trent Reznor of Nine Nich Nails Fame gave them like $5000 for his copy. Just on the premise that he hates (with a passion) the RIAA and their current screw the artist model. Oh, and for those of you who think that the artists make more than that $1-2, that is actually on the high side. Marketing is usually part of their fees, and NIN picks up their packaging also.

    25. Re:So the big question is... by pintpusher · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm a hack musician and I've never understood this. There is no device I've ever seen that requires training to make a decent sound. All you do is fiddle with the thing until it makes a sound you like. That's the whole history of rock/pop music right there. A bunch of guys fiddling with equipment, saying "hey that's cool" and putting it down on tape. Hell, a lot of that fiddling involved guys with no clue wielding soldering irons, or flipping the tape over to run backwards, or kicking the box in just the right spot, or any number of other plain ugly hacks and we applaud a lot of that music today.

      Now, if you're trying to make a piece of equipment make *a particular* sound or replicate someone else's work, then yes, that needs training, practice and expertise. But then, that's not really creating, it's reproducing or mimicking and that's a different thing altogether.

      Having said all that, one must have a good ear, reasonable taste, and personal honesty (i.e. admit that it sucks) to make it work. If a person doesn't have at least some musical talent and creative drive, then it will just sound like crap. You're probably right, 80-90% of home recording enthusiasts have little to no understanding of compression, but that *doesn't* mean they can't tweak some knobs, listen to the results, and determine whether they like the sound or not.

      Pundits can agree about all sorts of things and that doesn't mean jack. That's why they're pundits instead of done-dits, or however you'd make "they actually get it done" rhyme with pundit. Pundits will probably also agree that a microphone in the wrong hands can do more harm than good. It's the same with any piece of equipment. The problem is the definition of "wrong hands". Who determines what "wrong hands" means? The technicians and pundits want to say the wrong hands are anyone else's hands. The reality is the "wrong hands" are hands attached to ears and brains that can't hear what sounds like crap. Often times these wrong hand overlap with the other wrong hands and you get shit like modern hit music.

      --
      man, I feel like mold.
    26. Re:So the big question is... by ketilwaa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And, hopefully others are like me, having paid 0, now listening to the album, and deciding to go back and pay the guys. Try before you buy is smart, and might not show up in stats before some time has passed.

    27. Re:So the big question is... by ketilwaa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You register as a customer even if you pay nothing. 1: Why would you register 2 times? 2: If you didn't register two times, I would guess the people running the stats would give numbers based on *users*, not indidividual downloads.

    28. Re:So the big question is... by babbling · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's a lie that the record companies are very happy to have circulated. They appreciate your efforts.

      Lily Allen became popular without the help of her record label. Instead, she used MySpace. Whilst she was signed to a label at the time, it was her own marketing via MySpace that made her successful.

      Bands can do their own marketing. The internet has provided them with more than just a distribution medium. Just as Lily Allen used MySpace, other bands can:
      - Post their music on social networks.
      - Make a website selling merchandise.
      - Use a cheap video camera and editing software to make a music video that they can put on YouTube.
      - Create a message board to build momentum among their fans.
      - Solicit Free Software projects (eg. Frets on Fire, StepMania) and attempt to get their tracks included as part of the standard package.
      - Create a mailing list to keep fans informed.
      - Buy some Google Ads.
      - Solicit donations from fans.

      The problem is that most small bands don't do all of this. They will figure it out in time, though.

    29. Re:So the big question is... by petrus4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Solution: copy recorded music to your heart's content. Bleed em dry.

      The only problem with that idea is that it won't work. The reason why is people like Jessica Simpson and Britney Spears. Sure, their music sucks, but they're much, much bigger stars than the Trent Reznors and Radioheads of the world, sadly.

      People like Britney don't need talent...any at all...to be able to make money for the machine. She didn't contribute anything other than her face and maybe her voice to her music; the rest was produced by other people. She didn't write lyrics, she didn't do any of it.

      As long as there are blondes available who, on seeing them, teenagers wish they could fuck, the RIAA and the people they really represent will continue making money...because that is the commodity that really makes them money, not music. It's a flesh trade.

    30. Re:So the big question is... by Durzel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The other big question is what proportion of the 38% paid because they wanted to make a statement (to the labels), paid because it was a unique and untested delivery method, paid more to skew the statistics/subsidise the non-payers, etc.

      I don't think too much can be taken from the statistics other than what you've already alluded to - i.e. that given the choice between paying nothing at all and paying *something* - a high percentage value the music and the effort that went into making it at $0.

      Kinda depressing really, but not altogether unsurprising.

  2. Unfair to music company execs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny


    I really don't think it's fair that Radiohead is just giving it away over the internet... Record companies put in a lot of hard work and effort to make a band successful, and I think it's really dishonest to just cut them out like that.

    Perhaps its time the government did something about it, before the record industry starts losing even more revenue and therefore jobs.

  3. Got radio head? by smittyoneeach · · Score: 3, Funny

    Got radio head?
    Listen, Fred:
    RF containment
    Could leave you dead
    Drop the insulation
    And broadcast, instead.
    Burma Shave

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  4. One thing they didn't account for by Aslan72 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One thing this didn't account for was advertising. A band that big probably had a huge advertising budget in their past that they no longer had to worry about because being the first ones out of the block, they caught a bit more press on the Internet. There were probably a number of new radiohead fans that were made because of this that will come back and buy future CDs. They might have taken a hit financially, but I think the payoff is going to be bigger in the long run.

    1. Re:One thing they didn't account for by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually you raise a good point on the advertising costs. If they did not spend much in terms of advertising, then their costs would be lower and it's possible that they ended up with similar or even more profits. Having an already established name would help, of course, along with the free publicity, but hey, that's savvy too. But yeah, no idea how that actually played out.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    2. Re:One thing they didn't account for by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Real hard to figure out WTF you were quoting or saying there, which of those words were yours, and what your point was.

      Anyway, with only 38% of downloads resulting in payment they still pulled in over $6 million. A "band with no name" wouldn't have to get anywhere near that amount to consider such an experiment a success.

      Note I said "downloads resulting in payment" not "people paying", since the former is accurate and the latter baselessly assumes one download per person. Especially for a no-name band, the "try before you buy" aspect would actually be an advantage; people reluctant to try out a new band could do so for free, and pay later if they liked it. That appeals to me anyway since I don't like "risking" my money on an album I may not like. The percentage of downloads that result in payment really isn't the important metric, then, it's the amount of money taken in.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  5. How does this compare... by Raineer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    After all is said and done, how does that compare to the standard take of the band's share? Typically $1-2 per album sold right? Sounds like they made out pretty well.

  6. it worked by Mutagenic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    at 6-10 mil this experiment work. Radiohead made more in album sales via download than they have on other albums. Plus this does not included what they will make in storefront sales.

    1. Re:it worked by swillden · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the real question as to whether "it worked" is how many of those bands have made it big.

      The reality of music in the Internet age will be that hardly any bands "make it big", but lots of bands make a living.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  7. The question being by Cheese_Grater · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How many of those were people who downloaded it, gave it a listen and then went back and paid for it after they decided it was worth some cash.

  8. Re:what is radiohead? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What is google? What is the slashdot search box, even? If you expect each story summary to give you a background on every term or group it includes, slashdot would be a pile of shit.

  9. A lot better than software by El+Lobo · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I am the developer of a quite succesful shareware program. The program can be downloaded for free AND without limitations or nag screen. Nothing. It just works and the users would pay if they want. The "official" price is 25 USD. Counting the the "phoning home" update feature unique hits and the money that came in, I calculate that only a 10-12% of the user pays for the program.

    Well, of course, it culd be that not all the users are keeping the program, they may be testing, etc... but I am counting the hits that the server register from the same address within a month... So the program has being used a month more or less....

    So judging by that, music consumers have a more happy pocket than software users.

    --
    It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
    1. Re:A lot better than software by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've paid for shareware I've used before, with prices up to $60-$70 or so. However, that top price was for a full-featured "best in class" development program (VideoReDo) or for a major customized database application (Living Cookbook). I wouldn't pay that much for a "utility" type of software as opposed to an "application" type of software. (I don't know what you sell.)

      It's possible that your customers feel that the program is worth something to them, but they just don't feel it's worth $25. Since you get so little money anyway, why don't you try letting people pay whatever they choose in the range of $15-$25, and see if it boosts your total income? Maybe you could add value to those who choose to pay $20 or more by giving them free updates, new features, support, etc.?

      And nag screens can bad (thanks for not having one!) but perhaps there's space on the menu bar to put in a text-only "donate and register" reminder? Can't hurt to remind people that they didn't pay anything for a utility they use all the time...

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    2. Re:A lot better than software by imbaczek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      10% is a freaking lot. If everybody I know paid for Total Commander, the guy that made it would probably be a space tourist by now. Twice.

    3. Re:A lot better than software by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why not be smart and increase your sales...

      $19.95 is closer to a point that people gladly pay up for than $25.00 $14.95 will get even more people ponying up for it.

      I buy lots of shareware, hell I buy the $14.95 stuff after only 5 minutes of playing with it all the time. If your point is to make money then price it so it is an easier sale.

      Try a "special xmas sale at that price for 1 week. see how many people jump on it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  10. what idiot wrote this? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the largest percentage (17 percent) paid less than $4
    If you are arbitrarily defining the range paid, it is completely meaningless to say "the largest percentage."

    For example, if I divide it in to two groups: those who paid less than $4 and those that paid more than $4, you could say that the largest percentage (83 percent) paid MORE than $4.

    Lies, damn lies.... and terrible journalism.
    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  11. Impressive by imstanny · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The varying statistics of user behavior (from the degrees of payment to none at all) make a strong point Against RIAA's studies, which are used to determine the size of the damages they wish to seek from defendants of illegal downloads.

  12. yes, and..... by User+956 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...And with all the free publicity, EMI (their old label) has decided to cash in-- selling their back catalog on a USB drive that retails for TWICE what the CD box set costs.

    That pretty much explains the music "industry" in a nutshell.

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:yes, and..... by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...And with all the free publicity, EMI (their old label) has decided to cash in-- selling their back catalog on a USB drive that retails for TWICE what the CD box set costs.

      To be fair, there is a small diff...

      That USB drive contains .wav files - that is, an uncompressed, unadultered, 'yes-you-can-tear-that-bitch-up-without-losing-signal' format.

      For someone doing mixes and modding, that's (almost) a godsend format. Not as good as the pure MOD files mind, but nice 2nd place to 'em.

      (of course, IIRC Trent Reznor gave a lot of his away in MOD formats --for free-- back in the day, so...)

      /P

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  13. go to drudgereport.com right now by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    drudgereport.com is a right-leaning website frequented by media execs

    you see the very first story linked as:

    "Most Fans Paid $0 for Radiohead Album..."

    (breitbart is a right-leaning media outlet as well)

    ps: right now being 4:15 pm, 11/06/2007

    what's funny is how a pro-file sharing website, like slashdot, can spin a positive out of the numbers, and an anti-file sharing website can spin a negative

    spin, spin, spin

    just my two cents: radiohead probably made more money off their album with this internet tip jar concept than if they signed with a label, considering how the companies nickel and dime artists to death. actually, radiohead has some clout, so maybe that's not 100% true. but rather, an unknown band would DEFINITELY make more money with free albums and an internet tip jar than signing with a label

    hopefully more and more bands will realize this, and a critical mass of hot young bands will coalesce such that one will consider doing business with the defunct music labels ever again

    then the RIAA attack dogs will sue up and coming artists to sign with the music labels? (half-joking, i wouldn't put it past them)

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:go to drudgereport.com right now by Anonymous+Custard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is that most small bands don't have the exposure that Radiohead does. "During the first 29 days of October, 1.2 million people worldwide visited the 'In Rainbows' site."

      Small bands sign with a label not just to get a loan, but also to get promotion services. Aside from giving you a loan and pressing your CD's, the company might:
        - contact all the radio stations where your music would fit and try to hype you up to get airplay
        - arrange for you to open for bigger touring bands also on the label
        - send out your CD to get reviewed by various magazines etc
        - use their network and connections to spread your name around

      You could do this all by yourself, but it's actually a lot of work, and many bands prefer to "focus on the music" (meaning they're not interested in the business aspects, just the music aspects of being a band... sadly it's the business aspects that make money - playing beautiful music on the street won't make money without the business aspect of putting down a hat for donations).

      Radiohead did this all themselves - the did the record company's job. They hired their own publicists directly, contracted with distributors (the website storefront developers, and whoever is manufacturing their box sets). They still had to promote their music using their own network of contacts, though their own name is already very popular. They're big enough that industry eyes were already on them, so they don't really need a record label to lend a hand by begging for magazines to review their new album.

      So what worked for Radiohead doesn't necessarily translate to smaller bands trying to break out onto the scene.

      Personally, I still think what new bands sacrifice for their record deals is by far not worth it, compared to just doing all that stuff themselves, especially early on in a band's career.

      In the end it's really all about the music. If the songs you write are really good, then even recording them by yourself will still produce desirable music. Then once you're making some money touring and selling your semi-pro quality CD after shows, you'll have more clout when arranging terms for your second album's national distribution with a major label. That's because now they need you more than you need them, and because you bring your own fan base you pose much less risk to the company than the average band.

      The mistake that many bands make is if you write really good music but let a label handle all the business starting early on - it's like selling your company's stock the day you open your doors, then watching the other investors get rich as your company gets popular and successful.

      But if the songs you write suck so much that no one goes to your concerts and no one buys your CDs after the show, then, when you sign a record deal, don't be surprised that the record company thinks it deserves a huge share, because after all you were bombing before they got involved, and you're more like a studio musician to them than a gotta-sign breakthrough band.

    2. Re:go to drudgereport.com right now by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you want to look at the numbers without spin, it's simple: Radiohead pulled in 6-10 million bucks.

      That's the bottom line, that's the number that matters, and without any spin it's clear that this is a good, positive number.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  14. More data needed. by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We'll only really know the full impact of this if/when other acts start doing it. I don't really like Radiohead, but I threw them $5 just for shaking things up in a good way. Still, it's obvious most people who bought this album were Radiohead fans. The real question is, how much further will this distribution model go if/when other major fanbases are given the same chance?

    1. Re:More data needed. by The_DoubleU · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I read an article about Trent Reznor co-producing the album of Saul Williams.
      I'm a big NIN fan but never heard of Saul Williams, still I bought the album without thinking. Just like I did for Radiohead, although I know their music.
      And Saul Williams is great!
      Best thing is, free downloads are 192 kbps. But if you pay 5$ you can choose between 192, 320 or flag!

      So people if you like NIN and hip-hop download Saul Williams!
      I really hope this is going to be a new way of doing music business.

      --
      What power has law where only money rules.
  15. Or... by rbarreira · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Either that or many people wanted to use this opportunity to make a point against the recording labels, and the results would be different if this became a standard practice.

    For some reason, I'm inclined towards the latter.

    --

    The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
  16. No surprises by Cally · · Score: 4, Insightful
    So things went pretty much as you'd have expected from reading the comments on a typical RIAA / music / copright story on Slashdot, six or seven years ago - say, when Napster happened. Back then, those of us who that a band could give away their material, and if they were any good, some significant fraction of the audience would willingly pay for it --enough to make it a viable approach -- were seen as loony swivel-eyed furry-toothed freetards, if I remember correctly.

    Hmmmm.

    Three cheers for Radiohead, at any rate.

    --
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
  17. Something to consider by sheph · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of those who did not pay anything, how many would have purchased the album if it had not been available for free download? Between that, and the minimal compensation from a standard record contract I'd call this endeavor a success. I also think that if this model took off there might be more of a social push to encourge cheapskates to support the bands they listen to.

    --
    I don't believe in karma, I just call it like I see it.
  18. also, multiple downloads by ODiV · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How many people downloaded and paid for it on one machine and then decided to download it to another (at work, on a laptop in a hotel, whatever)? There are several things online I end up downloading countless times because it's easier to get it off the net than it is to keep everything on me.

  19. Another possibility by rbarreira · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Either that, or many people wanted to use this opportunity to make a point against the recording labels, and the results would be different if this became a standard practice.

    For some reason, I'm inclined towards the latter.

    --

    The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
  20. ANTI pays 50% by MushMouth · · Score: 3, Informative

    ANTI records which has some pretty big names pays 50%, does promotion and distribution but doesn't cover recording costs.

  21. I Paid by ilovegeorgebush · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've been an avid Radiohead fan for years now, and when I saw this I was delighted someone had stepped up and realised the change in the state of the music industry. I paid 5 quid for it, and I did so to say "good idea, I'm willing to pay" and I don't regret one penny of it.

    Kudos to Radiohead, and I hope those fat cats at the RIAA and related Music Labels take heed.

  22. These numbers are meaningless by kasek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can spin the numbers any way you want...

    17% paid less than $4? Well, that means that of the 38% that paid, 21% paid more than $4. What does $4 have to do with anything at all? It is a completely arbitrary number.

    The numbers that would be important are:
    Of the 62% who paid nothing, how many of them would have bought the disc at retail at launch?
    Of the 38% who paid something, how many of them would have bought the disc at retail at launch? How much more / less did they pay than if they bought it at retail?

    Not to mention that they will still sell physical CDs, which they stand to make more money off of.

    1. Re:These numbers are meaningless by Volante3192 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And how many people actually cost Radiohead money by donating less than what the charge fee ended up being?

      One donation of $10 might cancel out 10 donations of $1...

      (Numbers pulled completely from ass, plus I can't remember if they put a minimum on that just to cover the fees)

  23. Was it just me? by minniger · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Or was the website strange enough that I was inherently unwilling to give them ANY of my personal info, let alone my CC number?

    I like the band, and I am willing to wade through any number of website disasters that reflect a given bands 'taste'. But when it comes to giving my money to someone I'd like something nice, normal and boring.

    But that's just me.

    1. Re:Was it just me? by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I was willing to pay $5.00 for the album, but in the end, I just left their web site and didn't download the album. The fact that I had to register (i.e, create a username) was simply annoying. I don't mind entering my CC info and address for a one-time payment, but that is all I'm willing to do to pay for the album. Past the purchase, I don't want to have any connection to the site. Even a Paypal option would have been nice.

  24. 15% after recoupment is better than average by sneakyimp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A lucky band might get a deal whereby they are paid 15% of revenues *after the record label recoups it investment*. Costs to be recouped can include nearly anything: secretaries, fat cat lunches, photography and printing costs, air conditioning, parking, coffee. You name it. Perhaps most importantly, the label has to shell out a pretty hefty percentage of revenues to the distributors and manufacturers whether they be a disc manufacturer or iTunes.

    My band had a record distributed through V2 records and I believe our tiny label was *supposed* to get paid about $2 per record. Despite selling a few thousand records, we never got paid a dime because they claimed they didn't recoup the cost of their sales department selling our record to Target, Best Buy, etc.

    I'll admit my band isn't as popular as radiohead, but let's do a little arithmetic. Suppose radiohead sells 1 million copies of their record at $20 a pop. That's $20 million dollars. Let's further suppose they get an extremely generous (nay unheard-of!) deal whereby they're paid 20% of gross after the label recoups their 'investments'. Let's suppose they get an amazing distribution deal that only siphons off 10% of gross revenues. Hell let's go crazy and assume that the record label doesn't expect to recoup anything and pays radiohead their percentage from the first record sold.

    20% of $20 million is $4 million

    take 10% of that and give it to iTunes and that leaves $3.6 million dollars

    I'd bet my right arm that radiohead have made out like bandits on this.

    For some interesting reading on the crooked record business, I would suggest Donald Passman's book All You Need to Know About the Music Business

    1. Re:15% after recoupment is better than average by swillden · · Score: 4, Informative

      My band had a record distributed through V2 records and I believe our tiny label was *supposed* to get paid about $2 per record. Despite selling a few thousand records, we never got paid a dime because they claimed they didn't recoup the cost of their sales department selling our record to Target, Best Buy, etc.

      I worked for Universal Music Group for a while, building a royalty calculation engine, and I can tell you that your experience is the norm. I got different numbers from different sources, but between 80% and 95% of albums never recoup, so the artists never see any money outside of their advance (if they got one). The ideal for the record companies is to keep it this way, so they can give the band as little in advances as they can get away with, and keep all of the rest.

      I would suggest Donald Passman's book All You Need to Know About the Music Business

      Seconded. Great book. It's actually the one that UMG execs handed me and told me to read for background information.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    2. Re:15% after recoupment is better than average by sneakyimp · · Score: 4, Informative

      I feel I should point out that V2 didn't give us an advance--not one penny. Our record label paid the entire cost of the recording and PAID them for distribution (somewhere around $10k I believe). There's no way they put $30,000 worth of effort into selling our record. Those people are crooks and always have been. Which is not to suggest that I think *you* are a crook - on the contrary. A very dear friend of mine used to work for Interscope and described to me how a certain nameless exec would ask for a print of EVERY PHOTO from a photo shoot just so he didn't have to browse them on a computer. Cost: $10,000. These companies are toast if they don't change. You don't need a million-dollar Neve board to record a record any more. You don't need a distribution company to reach your audience. It is with great pleasure that I watch the demise of this corrupt industry. Perhaps they will find some way to continue existing as providers of publicity.

    3. Re:15% after recoupment is better than average by swillden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Which is not to suggest that I think *you* are a crook - on the contrary.

      Oh, I felt quite good about it. The system I worked on would have increased the amount of money paid to artists, by implementing royalty calculations for several common contract clauses that the previous system couldn't handle. Whenever the labels write a contract they can't actually implement (which is very common), they choose to approximate it with a calculation that favors them. They don't bother to tell the artist that, of course, and the only way the artist finds out is by paying a team of auditors big bucks to go through all of the records and do the calculations themselves. Even then, the label just offers a "settlement", rather than actually paying up. The settlement is calculated to be just large enough that it's clearly not worthwhile for the artist to sue.

      I said "would have increased" because the system was never actually deployed. Oh, well, my employer took UMG's money at an extravagant hourly rate for six months, so it's a little less in their pockets. Some might argue "well, they're just going to pass it on to the fans or take it out of the artists", but they're already screwing the artists just as hard as they can, and they're already charging more than the market will actually bear for music (a couple of studies have shown that they could make more money by lowering the prices), so I'm pretty confident it came out of the coke & hookers budget.

      It is with great pleasure that I watch the demise of this corrupt industry.

      I agree wholeheartedly. All the more so after seeing how they operate in gory detail.

      Perhaps they will find some way to continue existing as providers of publicity.

      I hope it's other people who find a way to make a living providing publicity and arranging shows, but you're probably right.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  25. Re:what is radiohead? by Wavicle · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yeah, what is google?

    (types google into wikipedia)

    Ahh, I see!

    --
    Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
    Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
  26. Skued Numbers? by OVDoobie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I tried to buy the album from the US, my bank declined the charges. When I called them to find out why they said a lot of fraudulent charges come from that part of the world and would not allow me to buy the album. How many of the folks who didn't pay for it actually "couldn't" pay for it?

  27. Actually... by C10H14N2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It would appear the spread was:

    $0.00 : 62%
    $0.01-4 : 17%
    $4.01+ : 21%

    Why four bucks is some magic number to someone, who knows. If broken in to equally as arbitrary but halfway sensible thirds, I'm sure it would look something exciting like:

    $00.00-00.00 : 62%
    $00.01-05.00 : 12.6%
    $05.01-10.00 : 12.6%
    $10.01-15.00 : 12.6%

    But, that would make for a terribly boring PowerPoint presentation.

  28. Re:what is radiohead? by geoffrobinson · · Score: 5, Funny

    They were the band that laughed at Scott Tinnerman.

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
  29. And it could have made even more money! by ilikeyouanyways · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I view these results as a significant success for a new distribution model. But there are at least two things that make this experiment flawed and that limited how much money they've made off of In Rainbows:

    Site Usability The website where you buy/download the albums is REALLY hard to navigate and understand. They don't even make clear that you set your own price. Had I not known beforehand that you could set the price, I would've abandoned the site because it looked broken.

    Can't Purchase After Download If you download the album for free (like I did), but then decide you like it and want to pay for it, YOU CAN'T! Basically they let you have one download per email address. So unless you have another address handy to use the second time, you can't retroactively pay for your first download. That's just silly. Of course some of us want to decide whether we like it or not before handing over some cash, so this is a significant feature flaw.

    So given these two significant things were hampering sales of the album, I'm actually pretty optimistic about the model. The next artist that does this and gets the site experience right and supports a "delayed" purchase, will make even more.

  30. Overlap by Arthur+B. · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder what is the overlap between the percentages, I mean some people could not pay anything, decide they like the album then come back to the site and pay for the download.

    --
    \u262D = \u5350
  31. I persist in not caring by jfengel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's easy to sell things when you're already famous. That's what the record labels do: they make you famous. They put you in record stores and on the radio.

    So I don't really care who downloads the albums of famous people. There are plenty of brilliant bands out there who you've never heard of and won't download their albums even when they give them away (and they often do).

    Yeah, a bunch of famous people got in the newspaper and made a bunch of money off of it. Big deal.

  32. Re:FUD by Microlith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the music world hardly needs this and will conceivably will fair much better overall without it.


    So promotion is a bad thing? Oh wait, it's only bad when it's music -you- don't like.
  33. I downloaded it. by Erpo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, that could inflate the numbers of non-paying customers.

    I downloaded it for $0 too, and it didn't appeal to me at all. I wish I could "un-download" it, i.e. delete it from my hard disk and decrement their "$0 downloader" count.

  34. My Indie Band Tried this as an Experiment -Results by fyrie · · Score: 5, Interesting
    On October 18th my band put our new EP up on our website for free with a donate link.
    Here

    Results to Date
    70 downloads
    5 donations
    % of downloaders making a donation: 7%
    Smallest donation: $2
    Largest donation: $12
    Average donation: $6.80

    As a poster suggested to me in the last thread about Radiohead, I'm not going to quit my day job.

  35. Re:My Indie Band Tried this as an Experiment -Resu by Fireye · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's a big difference psychologically between:

    Putting up a free download link, and having a donate button
    OR
    Having an order form that explicitly lets you type in $0 for the purchase price.

    Your method will not work because the audience at large feels no obligation to to "donate". Radioheads makes you feel like you ought to pay something, even if it's minimal. Those 62% must feel really bad about now, unless they didn't like the music, in which case they probably appreciate Radiohead for not charging them.

  36. Which leads to a bigger question by Ogemaniac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How many people paid THIS TIME to prove a point to the RIAA...and will pay little or nothing next time, or the time after, or the time after that?

    Do you really think people will continue to pay $10 for something they can get for nothing? Neither do I. In the end, this incident is a gimmick with no sustainability.

    1. Re:Which leads to a bigger question by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Do you really think people will continue to pay $10 for something they can get for nothing? Neither do I. In the end, this incident is a gimmick with no sustainability.

      When you go out to dinner how much do you tip? 15%? 20%? Why pay that when you can get it for nothing? Is it out of guilt? For future service? Either of those motives work well enough in this case. And unlike the waiter they don't need everybody to do it. Just a reasonable portion.

      Comparing it to current sales and profits is not very meaningful. The industry is changing, and so is the profit model.

  37. Re:Only in gross by Some_Llama · · Score: 5, Informative

    "In this scenario, they're responsible for all the marketing, recording, and distribution costs. In the scenario where they're getting $2/album they don't have to foot any of those bills."

    Huh? Typical music contacts often give you a set amount of money for a record and then X$ per CD, they then charge you for marketing, recording and distribution. so often an artist will come out ahead only if they sell X number of CDs to make up for those charges.

  38. I think marketing/distribution was quite cheap by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think marketing/distribution was quite cheap for this one...

    --
    No sig today...
  39. Re:what is radiohead? by ReverendLoki · · Score: 5, Funny

    If every user expected every /. article to contain hyperlinks to define every little word larger than two syllables, the it would indeed be a pile of shit.

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  40. Re:My Indie Band Tried this as an Experiment -Resu by IorDMUX · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just a request, so that we can more clearly see the Slashdot crowd's impact... could you post an update to your stats in... oh... 12 hours?

    --
    >> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
  41. They still benefitted from the record industry... by HockeyPuck · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If Radiohead did not have record labels such as "XL, ATO, Parlophone and Capitol" marketing them or in essence providing seed funding/capital, would Radiohead have had the ability to make a name for themselves in today's internet era? My band gives away their music for free and do you think KROC in LA would tell the world that my band gives away our music for free? Nope. Radiohead was taking advantage of the marketing that had already been done (and yes they paid for it with the labels taking their cut of Radiohead's work).

    So how could you market your music? Mail CDs to the radio stations, doubt it. Battle of the Bands, local gigs, works fine but takes a while to build up a non-regional following, and even that might not lead to radio play. So you're still left with word of mouth.

    and this is where Radiohead cheated. Their word of mouth was spread via the mass media. I heard about it on not less than 3 radiostations. Radioheads "Can we get people to download something for free?" is not much different from a local ice cream shop offering a free scoop on their anniversary. Since the ice cream is free, I'll give it a try even if I normally don't eat ice cream in February. Sure I might return one day and purchase some on my own, or maybe i'll never go back there.

    While I envy Radiohead's experiment on downloading free music (or name your price), I think it would be far more interesting for a study to be done on the viability of the thousands of bands which do not already have an international following of giving away their music.

  42. Re:In other words, greater than 6 in 10 will steal by frp001 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Steal? How can it be stealing, given that the author allowed them to download the album for 0.
    Stating this, also is a broad generalisation : this proportion could be split up in many categories (thieves, curious about the music which did not like it afterall, curious about the process itself, etc...)

    It would indeed, be interesting to see the account per country.

    --
    May I use your sig please?
  43. Re:The Point by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, you absolutely must look at the total, because that's what ultimately matters: the bottom line.

    You can't go by the percentage because you don't know what they would mean in other contexts. All this says is that 12% of the total downloads came with a payment competitive with download services given the option of not paying at all. This says nothing about the number of downloads that would have been made at typical download service prices if there was no choice but to pay that price.

    How many fewer downloads would there have been if it was a mandatory payment? How many of these downloads were from people who would have never downloaded the album at typical prices? How many of these downloads were from people who were not willing to pay for an album they had never heard, but after downloading it for free decided it was worth their money and paid for it? How many were people who had already paid but were now downloading a second or third copy for work? How many were from people who would have paid typical prices for the album, but instead happily downloaded it for free?

    We don't know, and we can't know, because we have no way of converting the figures about downloads into figures about individuals. So how do you figure out how all these various factors turn out? If we can't put a number on each individual factor, can we at least find out how the add up together to give an overall picture? Yes. Yes we can. With total income.

    The most definite fact we have about this is that Radiohead pulled in a high-seven-figure gross in a short period of time.

    So however all these factors we're discussing about human behavior shook out, it resulted in a hefty pile of cash for Radiohead.

    Hard to say that doesn't look good. It would be nice to compare this to Radiohead's (not the record company's, but the band's) income from previous albums.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  44. Re:what is radiohead? by Dretep · · Score: 5, Funny

    It is receiving oral sex while relaxing and listening to the radio.

  45. But wait, there's more by DingerX · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Record companies often SCREW the bands on contract.

    Dude, producers, sound engineers, and all those folks don't all work for the record companies.

    Front money? How many record company contracts have you seen? And how much does a record company actually advance on royalties for anyone but a superstar?

    Marketing: yes, that's true. Of course, it's less true now than it was fifteen years ago. Fifteen years ago, there were record stores, and people actually listened to the radio. Well, they killed record stores, and nobody listens to music on the radio anymore anyway.

    Record companies are only now getting into the tour bus business, because that's the only part of the industry making money. That is not traditionally what record companies do. That's what band managers do, and for most recording artists, that's still what managers do.

    Top-of-the-line instruments? Dude, you mean like Nikes and stuff?

    So, no, I say your understanding of the music industry clashes with mine. But you do point the way forward: out of the hands of old "CD and lawsuit" companies and into the control of groups and individuals (within the current record companies, or outside them) with influence on the market as it currently is. And, with the internet, it currently is more segmented and more regional than it's been in a long time. Radio DJs are all but irrelevant; MTV? When was the last time they showed music? And yet the record companies still insist on making $2M videos? The current arbiters of music fashion and taste are those people who've been supporting recorded music since its advent, but have never been under the control of the music industry: your buddy who makes the mix tape, the club DJ, your little hoodrat friend who's been "saving it for the scene". The "industry leading" recording studios aren't worth it for most musicians: they can get a "good enough" job done in someone's house in the Meadowlands. The "music people" and their cocaine only harmed Rock-n-Roll to begin with.

    So no, the Reagan 80s were not a glory period for music. As the saying goes, I survived the 80s one time already...

  46. Re:In other words, greater than 6 in 10 will steal by amRadioHed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Don't forget about people who downloaded it for free to check it out then later payed for it. I'm curious how many of the free downloaders did that.

    --
    We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  47. Re:Who has listened to the album? by MtHuurne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, I really like the album. The songs are accessible enough to enjoy on the first listen, but detailed enough to still be interesting on the tenth listen. It's an album to listen as a whole: there is no megahit on this one, but no fillers either.

    You could download it for free, listen to it once and then pay whatever you think is a fair price. Or you could take a gamble and pay between $5 and $10 (there's 10 tracks). It's up to you.

  48. Re:Only in gross by Knuckles · · Score: 3, Informative

    You have no clue about the music business. Try again

    --
    "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
  49. Re:what is radiohead? by ReverendLoki · · Score: 5, Funny

    I considered putting a Democrat link instead of a Republican one, but ultimately decided against it. The Democrats could never get organized enough to form one pile. Therefore, I stand by my original post.

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  50. Re:Only in gross by swillden · · Score: 4, Informative

    In this scenario, they're responsible for all the marketing, recording, and distribution costs. In the scenario where they're getting $2/album they don't have to foot any of those bills.

    Nope. Many of those bills are recouped out of artist royalties. Marketing is usually split, often 50/50, recording is almost always 100% recoupable as are all other production costs (artwork, travel expenses, the time of the label personnel that were involved -- and some that weren't, etc.) and distribution costs are taken off the top before artist royalties are calculated. Distribution costs are also artificially boosted in various ways, to minimize the artist royalty.

    My favorite technique is "breakage". See, back in the day of shellac records (before vinyl!), records were very fragile and lots of them got broken during shipment. Rather than address the complexity and fraud opportunities of getting retailers to report how many records arrived broken, the labels just offered to take 10% (IIRC) off the top for "breakage". This discount was also applied when calculating artist royalties, obviously. When vinyl was introduced, this structure was retained, even though breakage almost completely disappeared. When 8-track tapes, cassette tapes and then CDs came on the market breakage simply didn't happen any more, but the structure was retained. Along the way, the labels renegotiated their contracts with retailers and removed the breakage discount on the -- quite reasonable -- grounds that it didn't happen any more and when it did the shippers were responsible. However, they *still* apply the breakage discount to artist royalties. Nice, huh?

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  51. Re:In other words, greater than 6 in 10 will steal by Original+Replica · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Rather than stealing I think this is a very interesting glimpse into a post-scarcity economy.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_scarcity
    The most interesting thing about this is that while 60% of the people paid nothing, the band still made more than they would have under the old method. Perhaps we could do this with the food we currently pay farmers not to grow, give away staples like rice and flour for "pay what you want".

    --
    We are all just people.
  52. Re:Only in gross by sjames · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's how with the RIAA style creative accounting a band can have a certified platinum album and never recieve a royalty check.

  53. Comparing Apples to Mangoes? by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 3, Informative

    TFA seems to be comparing Radiohead's model to iTunes and traditional record sales, which is a bit confusing. Given that it doesn't take sales of the disks into account, the only fair comparison would be strictly between Radiohead and iTunes/<your_favourite_provider_of_lossy_compressed_files>. On those terms I would be surprised if this new model isn't hugely more profitable for Radiohead and cheaper for consumers.

    If you take a different view of their model and consider the downloads to be predominantly promotional, they have more than paid for their promotional material before the actual product even ships. They have also made more than enough to pay for pressing upfront as well as any further promotion.

    While a lot of the recent publicity is generated by novelty, I think online busking is an excellent long term method of promoting quality recordings.

    The disc sets sell at 40 pounds each, from which they have to pay for pressing, printing, handling and shipping. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but I know locally 40 pounds (~$A90) would easily cover those costs for runs as small as 1000 and internationally they will probably sell a lot more than that. Radiohead has elimitated the risk of over-producing discs by offering a pre-order model and they don't have to give 98-99% to a record company.

    I don't think TFA can make sensible analysis until after the discs ship. It's definitely an interesting model.

    --
    I don't therefore I'm not.
  54. Re:Only in gross by meatspray · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But they saved on lawyers fees because they didn't try to chase down housewives and drag them through lengthy legal battles.

    Not to mention probably the best PR money can buy.

    Let's hope this raises the bar.

  55. You are still missing something by Ogemaniac · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These payments are anonymous. Tipping is not. I bet a lot of people wouldn't tip if they could do it without showing their face...and then, of course, restaurants would finally move away from our stupid tipping system itself.

    In anonymous situations, many people are jerks. How often does someone cut you off when driving? How often does someone barge in front of you in a line at a store or restaurant. What is the difference? Anonimity.

  56. Re:Only in gross by minniger · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The ever classic article from Courtney Love goes over the whole scheme:

    http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/

  57. oh really? by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Thom Yorke of radiohead produced much of his recent solo album on his laptop while riding around in a bus.

    --
    This space available.
  58. Re:In other words, greater than 6 in 10 will steal by SeanMon · · Score: 2, Informative

    I "purchased" twice (first for free, then I paid $8) but only downloaded once, figuring that they're probably paying for bandwidth.

    --
    "Scud Storm!" -- Jeremy of PurePwnage.com
  59. Re:In other words, greater than 6 in 10 will steal by presentt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not sure that would be a good idea. There is a critical difference between staple items like rice and flour, and goods like digital media. A person has no reason to take more than one copy of the digital media, but plenty of reasons to stockpile an exorbitant amount of the staple items (save for later, take more than they would ever use and sell it, etc). It's the same idea behind newspaper and soda vending machines--you can feasibly take as many newspapers out of the machine as you want once its open, but theres no reason to take more than one (unlike the soda, where if the machine just opened up instead of dispensing one it would be empty *real* soon).

    --
    I decided to stop stealing cynical quotes to use as a signature line.
  60. Re:Only in gross by Lord+Flipper · · Score: 5, Informative

    When vinyl was introduced, this structure was retained, even though breakage almost completely disappeared

    Whoa; Completely wrong.

    Did they 'break' when they were vinyl? No. BUT, I worked for major chains, pal, and the automatic returns system (accounting) was valid because an enormous number of records ended up as returns. You have no idea what you're talking about. Big stores usually had staff whose sole purpose was to validate returns. The main cause of the returns? Warpage. And the reason for that? Two things: Thinner LPs, with less actual vinyl, and the killer cause: The major labels never veered away from tight 'shrink-wrapping', which, in combination with the standard 60 LPs to a box in trucks with higher heat... equaled Warp City.

    On big number pressings, where sales were easily predicted at hundreds of thousands of units, the returns could hit 15-20% easily in Southern California, which makes the notion, that the "10% breakage" policy was an unnecessary artifact from the past, all the way wrong.

    I worked, briefly, all over Southern Cali, for WEA, doing Inventory, and part of it was dealing with returns. Did the labels mitigate some of the loss as part of overall contract strategy? Sure. But a mitigated LOSS, is still a LOSS. And trust me, when we shipped X number of units we wanted wholsale times X back. Nobody wanted to lose shit, mitigated or not. That's Business 101. Nice paranoid try, though.

    Sorry if I sound harsh. But I hate the way the labels have treated artists and the fans. I always have. But we can expose these people, and their methods by stating the facts and telling the truth. It's not valid to get the facts wrong in pursuit of any 'point' one is trying to make. I hated the 'returns' thing, back in the day, because it was simply more evidence of the cheap-assed cynical methods that were being employed and 'perfected' before, during and after my stint in that part of the biz, before I went back to 'just' being a working, touring musician.

  61. Another model by Dr.+Hellno · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I like what's happening here, but I agree with an earlier poster that this is more of a "fuck you" to the recording industry than a genuine indication of the viability of the model. It probably won't last. Artists need a way to ensure they get paid, while still embracing this whole consumer-friendly mentality. Here's how I think they can:

    The artist signs up with what I will call "The Company". They complete their musical work. They release a song or two, or snippets of all of them. These could be played through The Company's website, seeded via bittorrent and other p2p protocols, or made available on a client in a way similar to the existing itunes store feature which allows track previewing.

    The Company would use an algorithm - based on traffic to these various distribution channels, visits to the artist's myspace page, maybe even frequency of google searches if they'd be willing to make that data available -- to estimate consumer interest in the music. This would be used to determine a dollar amount that the public would likely pay for the music (a total, not an individual price).

    With this figure in hand, The Company would set up a webpage where donations could be pledged. Credit card information is given, but no payment is taken until the total money pledged reaches the previously determined figure for predicted revenue (which should probably be made public, but I don't really know). When the figure is reached, all amounts pledged are withdrawn from the pledgers' credit cards. At this point, the music is made available to everyone, through bittorrent, and perhaps the itunes-style client I already mentioned. Pledgers are notified, and perhaps receive priority downloads, but the music is available to everyone. It spreads on its own, and nobody gets sued. The Company takes an eensie weensie cut to cover bandwidth costs (I imagine this as a non-profit entity). A "tip jar" type of business model could then take over to collect the donations of any conscientious consumers, but I would hardly expect this to generate much revenue.

    It's not a very sophisticated plan, I suppose, but I've been mulling over it for a while and I just have to know what slashdot thinks. If some entity with enough resources, like google for example, really worked the idea over, I think there's potential.

    P.S. if the RIAA patents this tomorrow I'm going to go totally fucking banana fudge sundae.

  62. Recording companies are pretty "gross" too by WebCowboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In the scenario where they're getting $2/album they don't have to foot any of those bills.

    Reality is much more complicated than that, and in fact unless you're already a mega superstar you're not going to get a very nice deal.

    First off, $2 royalty per album is quite generous for an emerging artist signed on with a traditional record corporation. Second, the record execs hardly foot any of the bills at all--at least not directly. Promising artists are awarded "advances". Basically an advance is a loan of sorts--it provides money to spend putting together and promoting your first albums, when you aren't generating any revenue. When your album is released you commonly get severely reduced royalties...or none at all...until the record company has recovered its investment in you (the advance).

    Some other points to consider in terms of "new media" on the internet:

    * marketing requires a much lower monetary investment these days--time and creativity are more important

    * in order to get a deal with a record company you have to have a demo tape--generally you've already spent a lot of your own money on recording songs.

    * distribution over the internet is very low cost

    So, the costs to distribute an album online are much lower than the $10, $15 or more that is the difference between what the artist gets and what consumers pay for one copy of the album. It seems to me that Radiohead has done quite well here, getting revenue into the millions from one album sold on a name-your-price basis. This is just another sign that the business model of selling little plastic discs with songs made by artists held captive in a studio-system environment is obsolete and trying to make the same model work on the internet is futile. The commercial music industry is like the motion picture industry, except even more backwards, modeled after the way studios did business in the days of Gone With the Wind and Wizard of Oz. Because of that, it'll be quite a sea change that will make for very noisy lobbying.

    1. Re:Recording companies are pretty "gross" too by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      * marketing requires a much lower monetary investment these days--time and creativity are more important
      Afaict the radio is still where most people hear new music and the radio is dominated by the big labels.

      It seems to me that Radiohead has done quite well here, getting revenue into the millions from one album sold on a name-your-price basis.
      Radiohead have been through the major label system and come out the other end. Yes they have made a lot of money on this but only because they were already a well known band. When a band who has never had a record contract with a major manages this then I will be impressed. Until then this is just an insignificant stunt by one of the few bands with the staying power to go through the major label system and come out the other end.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register