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How PALS Help Secure Nuclear Weapons

Hugh Pickens writes "The BBC reported last week that until 1998 no code or dual key system was required to arm British nuclear weapons. Bombs were armed by inserting a bicycle lock key (video) into the arming switch and turning it 90 degrees. Permissive Action Links (PALs) were introduced in the 1960s in America to prevent a mad General or pilot launching a nuclear war on their own and to control nuclear weapons that were at least partially controlled by other nations but as late as 1974, when an armed quarrel broke out between two members of NATO, Greece and Turkey, the Secretary of Defense learned that many tactical nukes were still not equipped with PALS. It has been reported that PALs have been installed on Pakistan's nuclear weapons to disarm or disable their triggering mechanism if the wrong code is entered or if the bomb is tampered with in any manner."

136 comments

  1. Tin Foil Hat Time. by pwnies · · Score: 1

    This is one of those things that I'm glad I didn't know about at the time. Lest I run and hide in my basement with a tin foil hat on for the next undefined number of years.

    1. Re:Tin Foil Hat Time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is surprising how many people would rather not know, than know, and do something to fix things and not leave them to the incompetent idiots.

    2. Re:Tin Foil Hat Time. by zerkon · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm not entirely certain, but I don't *think* a tin foil hat is going to provide much protection.

      My two cents anyway

  2. Quite sensible by niceone · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's because British people are inherently sensible and would not start Armageddon without a jolly good reason. Unlike all you mad foreigners.

    1. Re:Quite sensible by heauxmeaux · · Score: 0, Funny

      There is no way you can classify a people who eat Spotted Dick, Bubble & Squeak and Mushy Peas as 'sensible'

      --
      Beat 'Em and Eat 'Em
    2. Re:Quite sensible by niceone · · Score: 2, Funny

      OMG +1 Insightful, could someone meta-meta-moderate that moderation +5 Funny?

    3. Re:Quite sensible by sseaman · · Score: 2, Informative

      I suspect it has less to do with fear of rogue generals illegally declaring war against other countries as it does with generals illegally declaring war against their own commander in chief. Surely no one understands better than Pervez Musharfaf that generals don't always voluntarily obey their President.

    4. Re:Quite sensible by rmadmin · · Score: 1

      You're still alive aren't you? ...

    5. Re:Quite sensible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    6. Re:Quite sensible by davetd02 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have clearly never watched Dr. Strangelove, Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb. The movie should be required viewing as an artifact of cold-war culture; even if its lessons aren't directly relevant today (we longer live in a world defined by two nuclear powers in an eternal standoff with a hair trigger) it captures the absurdity of the era very well. Plus, as a pure comedy, the movie has aged well.

    7. Re:Quite sensible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd consider this funny but for the fact I'm Irish... :P

    8. Re:Quite sensible by youthoftoday · · Score: 1

      That's not all! We've been known to eat and drink McDonald's, KFC, Coca-Cola...
      Crazy.

      --
      -1 not first post
    9. Re:Quite sensible by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      You have clearly never watched Dr. Strangelove, Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb.
      No, I think the Brits where quite sensible in Stranglove. It's the Americans that where out of whack:

      General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.

      Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Lord, Jack.

      General Jack D. Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?

      Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I... no, no. I don't, Jack.

      General Jack D. Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

      Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Uh, Jack, Jack, listen, tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first... become... well, develop this theory?

      General Jack D. Ripper: Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

      Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.

      General Jack D. Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.

      Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.

      General Jack D. Ripper: I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake.

      Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No.

      General Jack D. Ripper: But I... I do deny them my essence.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    10. Re:Quite sensible by caluml · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, no, it's quite true. We've had our Empire, and, to be honest, they're a lot of trouble. See India/Pakistan. You just end up blamed for everything. :)

    11. Re:Quite sensible by Duhavid · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you haven't already, watch "Fail Safe".

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    12. Re:Quite sensible by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      One can only hope that the Pakistanis were diligent enough to clone the same PALs system into the Reagan-fostered nuke technology they sold to Iran. It would be really scary if Iran didn't have access, didn't install, and didn't master the same level of advanced bicycle locking technology the United States seems to enjoy.

    13. Re:Quite sensible by sanman2 · · Score: 1

      But look at all the curry you got from us. That's more than Israel-Palestine gave you. Or Hong Kong. Or the Boers. Or the Canadians. Or the Irish.

      Wow, you guys certainly got around, didn't you?

    14. Re:Quite sensible by saratchandra · · Score: 1

      End up being blamed for everything? Let me put that in perspective. There was no proper planning for partition and transition of power and the British haste culminated in chaos, massacres and the ensuing conflict.

      Quoting from the reflections of one Christopher Beaumont, who played a central role in the partition of India in 1947: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6926464.stm)
      "The viceroy, Mountbatten, must take the blame - though not the sole blame - for the massacres in the Punjab in which between 500,000 to a million men, women and children perished," he writes.
      "The handover of power was done too quickly."
      Look here for more info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India#Perspectives )

    15. Re:Quite sensible by Peil · · Score: 0

      Yeah lets blame the British.

      I mean, the Indians only fought for independence for a couple of hundred years, it's not like they didn't have a rough idea that they might just give it to them.

      Yet again, non-white killing non-white and guess who gets the blame - take some responsibility for your own actions - or are you suggesting that those who actually did the killing are too stupid to be held responsible for their own actions - like overgrown children?

      Flame away, but frankly it's getting a bit tiring seeing everyone blaming others when it it differences in their own societies that have led to so much suffering.

    16. Re:Quite sensible by show+me+altoids · · Score: 0

      One incorrect use of "where" instead of "were" is a typo. Two on the same line is illiteracy.

      --
      I feel sorry for people that don't drink, because when they get up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel
    17. Re:Quite sensible by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      The sooner the US realises that Pakistan is a natural ally of Islamic fundamentalists and China much more than it is a natural ally of the west, the better.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    18. Re:Quite sensible by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Funny
      It's because British people are inherently sensible and would not start Armageddon without a jolly good reason.

      It therefore surprises me that the following countries are not radioactive holes in the ground:

      Croatia
      Portugal (in 2004 and 2006)
      Brazil
      Romania
      Argentina (1986 and 1998)
      Germany (too many bloody times to bear thinking about)

      We're exceptionally forbearing with the nukes, even when we do have a jolly good reason.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    19. Re:Quite sensible by PastaLover · · Score: 1

      I don't think the GP meant to say there was not a good reason for them being blamed. The problem btw was trying to run a world empire in the first place, not the particulars of the ways they went about it. (which could never ever have worked out for the good)

  3. Rumor had it... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Interesting
    that the PALs on quite a few US tactical nukes at the height of the Cold War were set to 0000 or something similar.

    -b.

    1. Re:Rumor had it... by darth_MALL · · Score: 2, Funny

      I have the same combination on my luggage!

    2. Re:Rumor had it... by ais523 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      According to Wikipedia, this is actually true, so I don't know why it was modded 'Funny', maybe because it's true and funny; Wikipedia gives http://www.cdi.org/blair/permissive-action-links.cfm as the source. The combination was actually 00000000, but that isn't really much safer. (They apparently changed this rule about 30 years ago, so you can't take advantage of it nowadays.)

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
    3. Re:Rumor had it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't really find parent that "Funny" - The general code really was 00000000 until 1977 (and probably still the same on individual devices, until much later).

      http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JQP/is_369/ai_n6142131
      http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=167
      http://www.cdi.org/blair/permissive-action-links.cfm

    4. Re:Rumor had it... by GroeFaZ · · Score: 2, Funny

      0 0 0 0? That's amazing! I've got the same combination on my luggage!

      --
      The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
    5. Re:Rumor had it... by ducomputergeek · · Score: 3, Informative
      On the minuteman ICBM's, one of the last launch procedures up until the late 1970's was to set the PAL's to 00000000.

      I've spoken to former Silo men and they've confirmed at this was the case and the reasoning behind it was to make sure that people did not forget the codes (al la in the heat of the moment they freeze and forget) or to prevent some beurcractic mix up and SILO 123 got SILO 456's PAL codes, etc..

      And apparently this was done on the quiet. Not that it was a big secret as much as they just didn't talk about it.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    6. Re:Rumor had it... by Solandri · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So does that mean the Pakistani nukes aren't secure even if they have PALs installed?

    7. Re:Rumor had it... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      your way off, it was 00000000!

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    8. Re:Rumor had it... by nsaspook · · Score: 1

      I was a lot less worried about pals being set to all zeros when I discovered the safe that held the Sealed Authentication System codes had a large hole covered up by a magnetic clip-board. The CMS http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/swos/ops/72-23.html guy somehow hozed the combo and didn't want to report it. Luckly it was only the outer safe that held the SIOP-ESI level material. The release codes where in a safe inside the first one that I had the combo to.

      --
      In GOD we trust, all others we monitor.
    9. Re:Rumor had it... by caluml · · Score: 1

      The combination was actually 00000000, but that isn't really much safer. It's just as likely to come from a random number generator, as, say, 81105912 or 14777321.
    10. Re:Rumor had it... by nyekulturniy · · Score: 1

      In the 1980s documentary Minute man, the PALs were L7L7L7. Of course, the Emergency Action Message needed to be verified first, so there are two levels of control. Three, counting the two-man rule, and four, counting the fact your buddy has a pistol and will shoot you if you try screwing with the weapons.

      --
      Nyekulturniy... Proudly confusing readers and editors since 1981!
    11. Re:Rumor had it... by FredThompson · · Score: 1

      You've watched War Games too much. The pistols were not to shoot the other guy. They were for defense in case someone managed to get downstairs and the blast doors weren't open. Far more than 4 critical stopping points, too. L7L7L7 was a common test setting in the trainers.

    12. Re:Rumor had it... by nyekulturniy · · Score: 1

      I only recounted the ones I recalled. Of course, I was Army. There we had fancy technical guides such as "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY," the finest bit of technical writing that ever existed.

      --
      Nyekulturniy... Proudly confusing readers and editors since 1981!
    13. Re:Rumor had it... by FredThompson · · Score: 1

      Minuteman II had 6 thumbwheels on the enable panel. The most common setting during a demonstration for visitors to the trainer was ENABLE. That's with the unclassified launch instructions which were a PR thing. ICBMs had far more stringent controls than theater weapons, though. Some of the Army's unclassified field manuals for tactical nukes were a joke, as if it would be possible to retrieve all the "friendlies" from the target area and go through multiple layers of command. ICBMS were very interconnected and no pistol would stop anybody bad enough to get into the complex and past the blast door. Pistols were the greatest threat to bored Missileer toes...

      -- second odd confirmation phrase I've had for this post: "deterred"

    14. Re:Rumor had it... by icebrain · · Score: 1

      There's also the darker supposition that they were intended as a sort of quick "suicide pill" for the crews that couldn't live with themselves after launching...

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    15. Re:Rumor had it... by FredThompson · · Score: 1

      That's possible, too. If you were in the situation of being given valid orders to launch ICBMs, though, you were arguably already as good as dead. Common discussions were wether or not a dead body consumed more oxygen than a live one, if the chains that held the escape hatch doors were so long that the door would kill the person who tried to open it, where the escape tunnel ended (under the helicopter landing pad?), if the sand inside it had calcified or if there was enough room in the capsule to hold all the sand. There were food and water supplies but how long could that last and would you want to live? I don't remember anyone saying they would feel guilty, more wondering if it would be possible to survive.

  4. Irony by SlipperHat · · Score: 1

    Just what PALS are for! Stopping you from doing the stupid things that can get you killed.

    1. Re:Irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my world, Pals are there to put up bail money after you do something stupid!

  5. A chance to tag something drstrangelove by antifoidulus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You still have to wonder if a determined(and clever) mad general still could set off armageddon though(a la Dr. Strangelove)

    1. Re:A chance to tag something drstrangelove by Znork · · Score: 1

      Oh, it's quite easy.

      Just get elected and armageddon away. Sanity is (obviously) not a required trait for holding the presidential office.

    2. Re:A chance to tag something drstrangelove by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps a review of Dr Strangelove is in order, though. Remember: it wasn't really the mad general that destroyed the world; his orders were recalled and only one bomb was dropped.

      What destroyed the world was the secret, automated, un-disable-able doomsday device.

    3. Re:A chance to tag something drstrangelove by Gerhardius · · Score: 1

      General Ripper "went as mad as a bloody march hare" sending the 843 Bomb Wing to attack the Soviet Union and that initiated the sequence of events that led to the end of life as they knew it. Would Ripper have made the decision if he had known about the Soviets "doomsday device?" Dr. Strangelove makes one of the most cogent points about deterrence when he says "[D]eterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy the fear to attack." The gut reaction of General Turgidson to the Soviet Ambassador's announcement of the doomsday machine is "what a load of commie bull" and I imagine that Ripper would have been as dismissive.

      Ultimately Ripper was the person who exceeded his authority and sent the bombers on their missions. When "the Leper Colony" (Picken's B-52) can't be recalled and ends up dropping a bomb it is still due to Ripper's abuse of command authority. The device would not have been triggered without the bomb that was dropped through Ripper's inappropriate use of Plan R.

      Could the Soviets have waited to arm the device until after the announcement or at least make it operational concurrent with the announcement? The Soviets had to get it operational and tested before any announcement was made. Saying something like "in 6 months we will have a doomsday machine" is an invitation to a preemptive strike. Saying you have it when it is not operational is risky because enemy intel may have correct information. Ideally, the enemy doesn't know about the Doomsday device until it is operational.

      The concept of a doomsday machine in the Strangelove universe was dismissed by the good doctor as "not a practical deterrent." Would this consideration have blinded US intel to Soviet development of such a device? Yes it is just a movie.

      What about the crew of the Leper Colony? Assuming they reach Weathership Tango Delta and survived to get home somehow would they be subject to court martial or decoration? Major Kong and the crew believed they were following a lawful order and had no procedure to confirm the order with a higher authority, at least in the case of Plan R. Plan R was a contingency based upon the possible lost of National Command Authority, or decapitation, and the orders assume that there is considerable damage to the C&C network.

      "the whole point of the doomsday machine is lost if you keep it a secret!"

  6. Sigh of relief by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Funny

    has been reported that PALs have been installed on Pakistan's nuclear weapons...


    I've always wondered. Given the state of Pakistan and all that, I can truely sleep better at night knowing this. I just hope we're not deluded into a false sense of security.
    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:Sigh of relief by plsuh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" -- "who watches the watchers?" In this context, "who holds the codes for the PALs?"

      The US has shared information on how to add PALs to a nuclear weapon to just about anyone who has a declared or undeclared nuclear weapon capability. It's in everyone's best interest that nuclear weapons be kept under solid negative control, to make the "mad general" or "stolen weapon" scenarios a little bit less scary. It does not mean that the US or any other nation holds the PAL codes to Pakistan's nuclear weapons; and I can certainly see why any Pakistani government would object to someone else holding the codes.

      The big problem is that there are large segments of the Pakistani military (particularly the Interservice Military Intelligence branch, according to reports) that are sympathetic to the radical Islamic factions and might hand over the PAL codes along with a weapon. Another "what if" is the scenario where a radical Islamic government comes to power that wants to provide a nuclear weapon to al-Qaeda and/or the Taliban as a matter of policy. If this is a legitimate government with support from the military then they will have access to the PAL codes. Under the geopolitical circumstances (particularly the tensions with India over Jammu and Kashmir), I would think that a Pakistani general would want the country's political leadership to be able to authorize release of nuclear weapons as a deterrent to India, regardless of whether or not the general was a supporter of radical Islam.

      Even if a general or group of generals managed to lose all of the current PAL codes, a legitimate government would be able to reconsitute the PALs with new codes in a matter of weeks to months. Under that scenario, the government might even decide to reconstitute the weapons without PALs to prevent a like-minded group of generals from cutting them off again. To my mind, this would be an even worse outcome.

      Unfortunately, to an outsider such as myself (and likely most of the rest of the world) the internal workings of Pakistan's political and military structure are opaque and Byzantine. I certainly don't claim to understand how all of the various factions and pressures are likely to play out. I can only speak to the obvious and confirmable -- but the actual outcomes are likely to depend most on the parts that I cannot observe or confirm. Along with a U.S. government that seems to base its decisions only on the obvious and substitutes jingoism and ideology for any hint of rational thought, this is a truly worrisome situation.

      I wouldn't breathe too deeply just yet.

      --Paul

  7. Bicycle lock key by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So, in other words, the British nukes could have been armed by anyone possessing a Bic pen.

  8. I know Slashdot is always late to the game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But this article was written in 2005. FTL

  9. wow, that's a sigh of relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As of 1998, I could sleep safely in the knowledge that throughout the ranks of government and civil service there is never any more than one megalomaniac who would happily cause hundreds of thousands to die(*) while riding his power trip.

    (*) I was going to make that into a link, but there were so many choices.

  10. Bicycle Lock? by grassy_knoll · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Have to wonder if they restricted pens in the area of the nukes, since it's so easy to pick a bicycle lock with one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hsM88Wx8QQ

    Probably not. Wouldn't be sporting to pick the lock and all, so no Brit would ever do that.

  11. The kind of thing.... by gilroy · · Score: 1

    ... an idiot would have on his luggage!

    12345 forever, baby!

    1. Re:The kind of thing.... by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 1

      Aha, but only an idiot would even have a lock, no matter the combination, on their luggage. TSA will happily shred open your cases with a knife if you lock them and they can't get in.

    2. Re:The kind of thing.... by arachnoprobe · · Score: 1
      12345? How random!

      Fibonacci is the way to go! 01123581321345589144233

    3. Re:The kind of thing.... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      TSA will happily shred open your cases with a knife if you lock them and they can't get in.

      There are "TSA approved" locks, that can be opened by their baggage invaders with a "master" key. (Whether such a thing is useful or not is an interesting question.)

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    4. Re:The kind of thing.... by spikedvodka · · Score: 1

      Logically, if a master key exists, you can't assume that only the "Good Guys" have said master key

      maybe I'll just start zip-tieing my luggage shut

      --
      I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
    5. Re:The kind of thing.... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Most people don't realize that one of the reasons why you need to be at the airport hours before you fly is so those guys can rummage through your stuff if they see anything interesting in the scanners.

      If there's no time for them to pick through all the locks your luggage goes "missing" or gets "delayed".

      The next time your bag gets delayed, go check to see if someone has opened it. Often you'll find that it has.

      I just assume that people can steal stuff in my bags (or steal the entire bag) and will do so.

      Unfortunately the stupid thing now is you can no longer hand carry a lot of stuff. That doesn't add any security at all in terms of "terrorism", and it reduces it by making it hard for you to keep your valuables safe.

      People now have trouble carrying their expensive moisturizers and creams. I sympathize with them as the very dry air in the plane really does damage skin.

      --
    6. Re:The kind of thing.... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Logically, if a master key exists, you can't assume that only the "Good Guys" have said master key

      You cannot prevent people from going into your suitcase. You can only make it harder. That is the entire point of locking your suitcase.

      The TSA-approved locks are just fine. It's just there to slow people down.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  12. Snake! by orionop · · Score: 1

    Colonel Campbell: You have to insert the three different PAL cards to disable Metal Gear, Snake. Snake: But I only have one card. Otacon: Its a temperature based mechanism, you have to insert the card at room temperature, and at a hot and a cold temperature. Snake: How does that help secure Metal Gear? Otacon: Don't you read slashdot? Newb...

  13. Yes Minister! by Hemogoblin · · Score: 4, Funny

    Jim Hacker: Prime Minister
    Sir Humphrey: Cabinet Secretary
    ---

    Sir Humphrey: "With Trident we could obliterate the whole of Eastern Europe."
    Jim Hacker: "I don't want to obliterate the whole of Eastern Europe."
    Sir Humphrey: "It's a deterrent."
    Jim Hacker: "It's a bluff. I probably wouldn't use it."
    Sir Humphrey: "Yes, but they don't know that you probably wouldn't."
    Jim Hacker: "They probably do."
    Sir Humphrey: "Yes, they probably know that you probably wouldn't. But they can't certainly know."
    Jim Hacker: "They probably certainly know that I probably wouldn't."
    Sir Humphrey: "Yes, but even though they probably certainly know that you probably wouldn't, they don't certainly know that, although you probably wouldn't, there is no probability that you certainly would."

    1. Re:Yes Minister! by ameline · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One of my favorite quotes on the need to know... (also Bernards longest sentence :-)

      Bernard: Apparently, the fact that you needed to know was not known at the time that the now known need to know was known, therefore those that needed to advise and inform the Home Secretary perhaps felt the information he needed as to whether to inform the highest authority of the known information was not yet known and therefore there was no authority for the authority to be informed because the need to know was not, at that time, known or needed.

      --
      Ian Ameline
  14. you have got to be joking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are we really relying on (essentially) a mod chip to protect civilized nations from rouge terrorist extremist that might one day take control of Pakistan's nukes? I've modded an XBox before and it is not that difficult to mod/unmod. Are we really so egotistical to believe that there are no engineers in Pakistan? If this is our protection, then we are all a screwdriver and soldering iron away from oblivion. This doesn't make me feel safer. In fact, because of this, I am sure alot less attention has been paid to these weapons because people do not understand how easily software can be bypassed.

    1. Re:you have got to be joking by argiedot · · Score: 1

      Absolutely! But while you're worried about the rouge terrorists, the bleu and vert terrorists are quietly getting away. And the mascara ones are really enjoying themselves.

    2. Re:you have got to be joking by wcrowe · · Score: 1

      ...rouge terrorist extremist... Overly-made-up transvestites, with bombs, was the first picture that popped into my head...

      --
      Proverbs 21:19
    3. Re:you have got to be joking by LingNoi · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      I don't see why we waste money on making even more.. England is spending 3.5 billion pounds on one submarine and 6 nukes. WHY!?

      Does this hit the news headlines? Nope. What does you may ask?

      How the government is wasting money on immigration support, the NHS, anything else actually useful to normal people... here's a cluestick, take the nuke money away. Problem solved!

      A nuclear submarine is the most useless thing to spend money on, even as a deterrent because England would NEVER nuke a country. Could you imagine if they did? The government would be hanged. The country would be attacked. The UN would probably just grumble, etc,etc.

    4. Re:you have got to be joking by the+linux+geek · · Score: 1

      You really don't know much about the principal of deterrants anyway. The idea is that if the UK (or whoever) or an allied country of theirs is attacked with nuclear weapons, then they can offer massive retaliation in kind. The UK has always been an important component of NATO. Thus, the need for nuclear weapons.

    5. Re:you have got to be joking by leathered · · Score: 1

      3.5 billion is small change compared to 25+ billion on propping up the Northern Rock.

      If you really want to see taxpayers' money being burned, go work in local government or the NHS. I've worked in the NHS for just six months now, which has been more than enough time to open my eyes to how this government is no different than Labour governments of old, tax and spend with little to show for it.

      --
      For all intensive porpoises your a bunch of rediculous loosers
    6. Re:you have got to be joking by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      If England threatened to bomb another country killing millions of innocent people the government would be out of office. Hence why it is useless even as a deterrent, meanwhile your enemy is laughing "Yeah sure, 'nuke' me".

      It's never going to happen, everyone knows it, so what's the point in producing weapons that can kill millions of people and effect everyone on the planet just so you can play who has a bigger penis.

    7. Re:you have got to be joking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One possible scenario is that Pakistan collapses into civil war, and a number of nuclear weapons fall into the hands of a military faction who happen to have a soft spot for radical Islam. If that were to happen, I have no doubt that the US, UK and Russia would soon have subs in the area, and China would be re-targeting a few missiles towards them. Hell, India would probably launch at the merest hint. We'd have to flatten Pakistan in that case. No one would be prepared to take the risk of an unstable militant faction holding real, armed, nuclear missiles.

    8. Re:you have got to be joking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      As a gamer, you are completely oblivious to your intrinsic disparity between what you think you understand, and how any complex system works. Do yourself a favor and RTFA! Then consider not playing video games for a year and focus on learning Ring algebra. Its the only cure.

    9. Re:you have got to be joking by bmsleight · · Score: 1

      The 3.5 billion is IMHO wasted money. The 25 billion is to secure mortgages, the Government should get at most of this back - bad comparison.

    10. Re:you have got to be joking by sherpajohn · · Score: 1

      ...rouge terrorist extremist...
      Overly-made-up transvestites, with bombs, was the first picture that popped into my head...


      Aye, Pricilla: Queen of the Glass Desert
      --

      Going on means going far
      Going far means returning
    11. Re:you have got to be joking by budgenator · · Score: 1

      In order for there to be a nuclear yield, everything that has to happen has to happen within a 100 nanosecond window, there is no way that anyone could reverse engineer it without have several to trial runs at make an nuclear explosion, which would kind of kill any surprise effect.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    12. Re:you have got to be joking by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      If England threatened to bomb another country killing millions of innocent people the government would be out of office.
      Huh? Blair didn't threaten - he did bomb another country, more than a million people have died so far, he was allowed to retire with "honour" and all the people who went along with his madness are still in office.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
  15. the PAL system was neutered by US generals by SuperBanana · · Score: 4, Informative

    Permissive Action Links (PALs) were introduced in the 1960s in America to prevent a mad General or pilot launching a nuclear war on their own

    Wow, that glosses over reality very nicely. The codes were all zeros until the 80's, because said generals refused to implement a system that would prevent them from "hitting back".

    He rightly insisted on Permissive Action Links for the US Strategic Air Command Minuteman missiles and bombs - so that they could only be armed and detonated by the the correct codes from the President or the rest of the chain of command. However, it turns out, that whilst McNamara was nominally in charge, that SAC decided to secretly order all the PAL codes to be set to eight zeros, so that there would not be any delays caused by communications problems during a nuclear war.

    (From http://yorkshire-ranter.blogspot.com/2006/03/how-not-to-write-about-uk-nuclear.html)

    What's hilarious is that there were extensive efforts to implement PAL securely; all sorts of tamper-proofing and obfuscation in the weapons to make it such that you'd have to have a fair bit of training to have any hope of setting one off. Roughly the equivalent of installing high-security deadbolts throughout your property, and leaving the key in the front door lock.

    1. Re:the PAL system was neutered by US generals by SnowZero · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Wow, that glosses over reality very nicely. The codes were all zeros until the 80's, because said generals refused to implement a system that would prevent them from "hitting back". The keys were all set by 1977, and the "all 0's" codes were only used on ICBMs stationed in the US by that time. It's worth noting that US ICBMs required dual-activated keys, so it was still secure against a single compromised person (but not two due to the bad codes). Bombs overseas had proper codes once they got PALs (which did take too long to deploy). So, while it took far too long to deploy proper security, lets at least get our facts right.

      There isn't a really good reason the British should take 21 years longer than the (already late) US to deploy PALs with proper codes, and over 40 years later to use a dual-key initiation. "Someone else was late doing it" is not an excuse, especially when you are twice as late.
    2. Re:the PAL system was neutered by US generals by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      That's because the "rogue insider" in the U.S. was never really the threat that PALs were designed to protect against. Or at least, they weren't the top priority. If you read the paper on PALs and the declassified memos that it links to, the real perceived threat were NATO allies.

      The reason PALs were developed was mostly for forward-deployed weapons, particularly those in the hands of other armed forces besides the U.S.'s. The idea was to keep the Greeks from nuking the Turks, or vice versa, using U.S.-supplied nuclear weapons. (Interestingly, France in the early 60s was also thought to be a loose cannon.) Also, it was to keep weapons in parts of Eastern Europe that would probably be overrun by the Soviets during an invasion from being able to be turned around and used against the West.

      Nuclear weapons in silos in North Dakota, where the only access was (theoretically) by very carefully vetted personnel, probably benefited the least from PALs, and it's not surprising that the military saw them more as an impediment there. On forward-deployed weapons, you could get the military to buy into such a system, because it means that you can be more aggressive in handing them out and positioning them; in the U.S., from the military perspective, they're just one more thing to have to worry about going wrong when you have 10 minutes to get the missiles in the air before you get vaporized.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    3. Re:the PAL system was neutered by US generals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the UK due to our location and proximity to Russia, we had "The 4 minute warning", I don't know about you, but if I had 4 minutes to retaliate, I wouldn't want to be fumbling around with codes.

    4. Re:the PAL system was neutered by US generals by olman · · Score: 1

      Friend, I hate to break it to you, but there's this newfangled invention called submarine. More specifically, nuclear powered submarines (that can theoretically stay underwater for months) with ballistic nuclear missiles.

      In other words, UK and US have same reaction time to russian nuclear strike or "not enough" .. Any Mutually Assured Destruction deal would be in practice be carried out by whatever C^3 survives the first strike.

      Even better, 1st strike would probably be delivered by shipping containers..

    5. Re:the PAL system was neutered by US generals by olman · · Score: 1

      It's worth noting that US ICBMs required dual-activated keys, so it was still secure against a single compromised person (but not two due to the bad codes).

      Well, that, or you would take a spoon/fork from cafe, twist it 90 degrees, tie string to it and hey presto, you would have hi-tech nuclear bomb-launching device. After you shot the guy on the other desk in the neck, that is.

  16. Pakistan DOES NOT have PALS by d2_m_viant · · Score: 3, Informative
    There's conflicting information about whether the Pakistani's have PALS. According to a recent article in the New York Times, the Pakistani's do not have it:

    In the end, despite past federal aid to France and Russia on delicate points of nuclear security, the administration decided that it could not share the system with the Pakistanis because of legal restrictions.
    And furthermore:

    In addition, the Pakistanis were suspicious that any American-made technology in their warheads could include a secret "kill switch," enabling the Americans to turn off their weapons.
    Likewise with Clinton:

    While many nuclear experts in the federal government favored offering the PALS system because they considered Pakistan's arsenal among the world's most vulnerable to terrorist groups, some administration officials feared that sharing the technology would teach Pakistan too much about American weaponry. The same concern kept the Clinton administration from sharing the technology with China in the early 1990s.
    1. Re:Pakistan DOES NOT have PALS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does not matter, Pakistan's weapons are stored as separate, geographically disbursed components. PALs would do nothing in this case.

  17. If you REALLY want to be safe by HalAtWork · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    If you REALLY want to be safe, just don't have bombs. Sure, some other country can have some and threaten us with them, but they'll be the tyrants, not us, and I'm sure when their citizens see how their government acts, they will be scared of them and not trust them or be happy themselves. We just have to take that risk if we really believe in freedom, which includes believing in the freedom of others and not being a possible looming threat to others. People look at North Korea and react by thinking "OMG, that nut could nuke us at any time!", is that how we (as people, in any country) should want to be seen? When people go to war, it's not actually the citizens, most often it's an extremist (whether they be politician or vigilante or whatever), because war is an extreme "solution". It's not really a solution, it's just an end. An end to whatever argument to get it over with and to start the aftermath already. Having bombs on standby does not really help anyone, it just increases the chance of everyone killing each other.

    1. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

      Haven't ever been to North Korea, have you?

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    2. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by d2_m_viant · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What a bunch of nonsense. A county is threatening us with nuclear weapons, and our salvation rests in the fact that their citizenry isn't "happy" with their government? How the hell is that going to save American lives? You may be willing to stake your children's life on that, but I'm not.

      We just have to take that risk if we really believe in freedom
      No, we don't. Since when are "freedom" and "defending yourself" mutually exclusive terms? The most important figures in our country's history have been willing to fight and die for what they believed in, not the least of which was the notion of being free.

      Having bombs on standby does not really help anyone, it just increases the chance of everyone killing each other.
      Actually, quite the opposite, it dramatically decreases the chances that bombs will be used.
    3. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by flerchin · · Score: 1

      I assume you do not look at the French, or the British, and think, "OMG, those nuts could nuke us at any time!" Indeed, the South Koreans are more concerned about the total annihilation of Seoul via conventional artillery bombardment that Kim Jong Il could unleash any time he gets more cranky than usual. The fact is that unstable dictatorships, and whatever weapons they have, is the rational first concern of most Democracies.

      --
      --why?
    4. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that other (non-Western) governments give a rats ass about whether or not their citizens are "happy". Sure, if they aren't happy they might riot in the streets and require the army to suppress them. Happens a lot, I'd say. But still, the leaders aren't interested in happiness in the least.

      The problem with places like North Korea and Iran is the citizens can just cower in their basements because the leaders are going to do whatever they want and do not require and are not interested in permission from their citizens.

      Oh, and if there is any dissention at the top the folks in the minority generally end up with nice state funerals. Dissent doesn't last long under those terms.

    5. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "when their citizens see how their government acts, they will be scared of them and not trust them or be happy themselves. "

      STUPID! This is not kindergarden nor is it your polysci class. Grow up. The real world does NOT work that way merely because you wish it to.

      Neither will it save you from an enemy with nuclear weapons that only understands force and is only constrained by the threat of nuclear annihilation.

      Tell that to the victims of Tienamen Square. They were scared too. Did it save them? NO.

      Try using your brain - the enemy will not think the way you do, manners and being nice do not matter.

      And to the contrary the existence of nuclear weaponry is why the Europeans have not engaged in one of their continuing bloodbath wars for the last half century. The threat of nuclear annihilation by the Russians or Americans has stopped them cold in their tracks.

    6. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The North Koreans are just taking sensible precautions.

      America has just invaded a couple of countries close to them, is supplying weapons to other hostiles like Israel, and has made veiled threats about nuclear attack.

      If I ran North Korea, I'd be doing everything I could do defend my country and people against that kind of aggressor.

    7. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by KeensMustard · · Score: 1

      What a bunch of nonsense. A county is threatening us with nuclear weapons Moral of the story: shop locally.
    8. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, quite the opposite, it dramatically decreases the chances that bombs will be used

      Not really, proliferation of nuclear weapons will just make it more likely they'll be used. There's more than a few leaders today who'd have little restraint in using nukes if they had them, or put their populace at risk by developing nukes. So if you're a small country, you can secretly give a few suicide bombers the mission to "wipe Israel off the map". How does MAD apply if you don't know who nuked you?

    9. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by asuffield · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, some other country can have some and threaten us with them, but they'll be the tyrants, not us, and I'm sure when their citizens see how their government acts, they will be scared of them and not trust them or be happy themselves.


      One only has to look at the US in recent years to see that this, sadly, does not work. They invade foreign countries for their own power and profit, they force insane laws on other countries, and they are the only country ever to use nuclear weapons on civilian targets - and most of their citizens still somehow think that all this is a good idea.
    10. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by MrKaos · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Actually, quite the opposite, it dramatically decreases the chances that bombs will be used.
      Oh really? How so? Seems to be bombs want to be used as much as information wants to be free. And with the scope of an accidental launch triggering AT BEST a limited exchange (perhaps between pakistan and india) how is the M.A.D scenario even relevant anymore. Your saying with Pakistan now suspended from the commonwealth and under martial law, there is no scope for a terrorist organisation to seize control of ONE silo and see what they can do, what if they pitched one at the states and russia? Do you think that four minutes would be enough time for "dubya" to decide "oh - it's not really russia attacking us" at four o'clock in the morning - puuuuleeezz.

      The U.S is the only country to use a nuclear weapon in war, and in fact, invented the nuclear bomb. You lost the right to use the "defending yourself" argument a long time ago and what freedom are you defending? the right to choose pepsi over coke? Your "freedom" was lost once your countries participation in elections fell below 50% (and is now lower than 20%), your freedom is a manipulated at best and an illusion at worst.

      And the nerve of you to say "A county is threatening us with nuclear weapons" when right at this moment you are conducting an in-theatre nuclear war for the second time in Iraq with Depleted Uranium (D.U) munitions that make your own soldiers mysteriously sick. Clinton had the opportunity to disarm Russia in the '90's, all he had to do was put Yeltzin's drunken hand on a peice of paper.

      I don't blame the U.S citizen's because they have been manipulated by government and corporations that are no longer under the control of the people. If you want to defend freedom why don't you start encouraging people to vote. The scope for a weapons grade accident is something we have already been too close to. You may be willing to stake everyones children's life on that, but I'm not!

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    11. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And the nerve of you to say "A county is threatening us with nuclear weapons" when right at this moment you are conducting an in-theatre nuclear war for the second time in Iraq with Depleted Uranium (D.U) munitions that make your own soldiers mysteriously sick. Clinton had the opportunity to disarm Russia in the '90's, all he had to do was put Yeltzin's drunken hand on a peice of paper.


      DU is not a nuclear weapon any more than the guts of an X-ray machine, you fucking idiot. If we use nuclear weapons, you'll know it.
    12. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depleted uranium was used in kinetic energy weapons because it's really, really dense.

    13. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

      Sorry, meant South Korea I guess. Never wrote anything on the subject of war before, didn't know people would react this way!? Anyway whatever...

    14. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      s/"North Korea"/Iran/g

      There, FTFY.

    15. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe by MrKaos · · Score: 1
      Mr Anonymous Coward really standing up and making yourself counted eh. It takes courage to face reality.

      DU is not a nuclear weapon any more than the guts of an X-ray machine
      Only barely, and X-Ray machines don't spread radioactive isotopes when used,

      The Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities of the United Nations Human Rights Commission,[15] passed two motions[16] the first in 1996[17] and the second in 1997.[18] They listed weapons of mass destruction, or weapons with indiscriminate effect, or of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering and urged all states to curb the production and the spread of such weapons. Included in the list was weaponry containing depleted uranium.
      Depleted Uranium weapons are Weapons of mass destruction, it only exists because enriched Uranium exists. It's a nuclear weapon with a gradual deployment whose pyrophoric properties spread radioactivity into a food chain, accommodating bio-accumulation in the local population, a cancer war for decades.

      If we use nuclear weapons, you'll know it.
      How clever, I guess it's just convenient that D.U allows you to use up nuclear material without everyone knowing it then isn't it.
      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  18. Not secure by jihadist · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How do we secure them from our insane elected "leaders"? If George W decides that Iran really is the antichrist, he may send in some warheads to make them glow like Vegas. Vladimir Putin is currently putting Russia on nuclear alert because George W wants to built an anti-missile shield around Russia. We might as well let the things be secured by bicycle key at this rate!

    1. Re:Not secure by thrillseeker · · Score: 1

      Ah well, if Putin is looking out for us then we'll all be ok ... being that he's such a bastion of sanity, and all.

    2. Re:Not secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah well, if Putin is looking out for us then we'll all be ok ... being that he's such a bastion of sanity, and all

      Vladimir Putin is ruthless and power hungry, but definitely he's not a nutjob. More than anything he has proved himself to be thoroughly pragmatic and opportunistic, to the result of ending up a de facto dictator, but always with cold level-headed calculation. He draws on borderline megalomaniac rhetoric and plays the nationalist card a lot, but always to some specific end, always with a clearly defined purpose -- very much like a chess player (which he is good at). When a guy has a fairly high university education and no less than a black belt in Judo (which entails a bit of philosophy to pepper the wrestling), he's likely to be a fairly bright thinker, uinlike some arguably dimmer bulbs of the superpower president bunch. (This from a guy who lives in Finland -- you can believe we have reason to keep an eye open at Kremlin's direction in general and on Vladya in particular.)

  19. Here's a nice discussion on the topic by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1

    This chapter, from Security Engineering - The Book has a good overview of this.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  20. threats and safeties by drDugan · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Given that only 1 nation has ever used nuclear weapons in a wartime aggressive attack, most of what is going on with nuclear weapons is about threats, not about usage. "I'll use it if you do ..."

    When you're 30-100 times the size of your opponent, having a nice, methodical system of locks and approvals by which you decide and release your forces works fine. You can spare the bombs when you have 3000 and you spend 600 Billion a year on the military.

    When you're the little guy with a nuke or two, or like Pakistan with 8 tests, nuclear since 1998, and maybe 30-50 weapons - you need to have the threat that you'll use them very real. You need the idea that some mad general might fly off and send the nukes off a-bombing for the threat of using them to remain credible.

    1. Re:threats and safeties by BlueParrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really don't think the pakistani nukes are as much aimed at the US as they are against China / India. Lets face it, as mad as Bush might be, if you have a history of military conflict with a country next-doors and they are also building nukes, then that will probably be your main concern.

      In terms of deterring capability having 50 nukes and 3000 nukes is really not that much of a difference IF you can deliver them reliably. This is where the superpowers differ from the smaller nuclear weapon states. The US have a number of nuclear subs giving a second-strike capability. A country like Pakistan is much more vulnerable to a sudden surprise attack, which could theoretically leave them unable to retaliate.

    2. Re:threats and safeties by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      That doesn't make sense.

      If you're the Exalted and Supreme Leader of $PIPSQUEAK_NUCLEAR_NATION, you actually benefit from having PALs that prevent one of your generals from flying off the handle and glassing your neighbors: it makes you the only party worth negotiating with.

      PALs concentrate authority; they push the nuclear decision all the way up to the top of the hierarchy. That means the person at the top of the pyramid holds all the power.

      If you're a nuclear nation with an unstable chain of command and no PALs, suddenly those generals -- the guys who have actual physical control of the bombs -- are the ones who need to be negotiating with. The guy in the presidential palace is irrelevant if he can't control the weapons.

      The low-tech, human solution to PALs is to keep the nuclear weapons themselves controlled by extremely loyal parties, or at least guarded by them. E.g., you, Generalissimo Exalted Leader, send out a cadre of your very best brownshirts with automatic weapons, a grenade, and a cellphone, to sit on each of the weapons. If anyone comes in and tries to arm the bomb without them getting a call first, they shoot the people in question and set off the grenade. Thus you prevent your internal political enemies from making use of the bombs.

      Obviously, that's a less-optimal system than a cryptographic, tamper-resistant one, but it doesn't require anything more than a bunch of thoroughly brainwashed young men willing to die for your Exaltedness.

      Even in a chaotic political climate, the advantage of PALs (human or electronic, low- or high-tech) is obvious, at least if you're the top dog.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  21. Last I heard by omar.sahal · · Score: 0

    The British have to call the white house to launch, the system is inoperable otherwise. Our own systems developed in the 50s were to expensive for us to run, we could not compete with the superpowers of the day. We eventually gave the technology to the French, Ariane rockets come from this. Sorry no supporting documentation should be easy enough to verify.

  22. nukes in Turkey? by haaz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I thought the U.S. missiles in Turkey were removed as part of negotiation that ended the Cuban-Turkish Missile Crisis. I believe that was one of the terms Robert Kennedy worked out with the Soviets: we'll withdraw our missiles from your backyard if you'll withdraw your missiles from our backyard.

    Also, rumor has it the Soviet submarine K129 was hijacked by elite troops, and tried to launch a missile at Pearl Harbor. If this happened, and the sub did try to launch a missle, the missile's safety mechanisms caused it to self-destruct, taking the sub down to the bottom of the sea. There's a lot of rumor and conspiracy theory about it, but Project Jennifer seems to have been about recovering the sunken Soviet sub.

    --
    -- haaz.
    1. Re:nukes in Turkey? by jet_silver · · Score: 1

      Project Jennifer is also discussed in Blind Man's Bluff, which is mainly about John Craven. He appeared to be a slightly ditzy, slightly absurd little man who was always nattering about the law of the sea. The manganese nodule cover was carried out so brilliantly that there was a UN study undertaken to see what the economics were and which country ought to "share" in the "common treasure".

      I used to see the Glomar Explorer, off the south coast of Maui.

    2. Re:nukes in Turkey? by haaz · · Score: 1

      cool, thank you!

      --
      -- haaz.
  23. proof of insanity by fermion · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Here is the scenario. We generally want to be able to defend ourselves using what ever means necessary, but there are some means hat are so dangerous that we cannot actually let the normal chain of command control the use of such weapons. This inevitable means that such weapons become less reliable, less likely to be used, and less of a threat. Sure it is one thing to insure a weapon cannot be used against a friendly, but it is quite another to say that we must protect it from those who are fully authorized to use them. If you think about it, we don't even take that much care to insure friendly weapons do not fall into terrorist hands. If we have a weapon, don't keep it from being used. If we can't use it, then don't have, at least not in huge numbers. This does not even bring into account the reliability of certain components(not theoretical, but the actually reliability of manufactured items).

    Which is just to say that the US nuclear weapon program is one of the greatest examples of pork in history. The pork potion of the program was initiated in response to questionable analysis by the CIA, and lead to such events as the Iran-Contra drug running scandals. It is important to note that up to the point of the collapse of the Soviet Union, the CIA was reporting that Union was stable, strong, and an imminent threat. The 2.2 trillion 1980's dollar spent, along with an equal amount spent by the political successor of that administration, should be the envy of any tax and spend democrat, and has surely lead to a total deficit that will likely be at least 75% of GDP by the end of 2008.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  24. Re:If you REALLY want to be safe-ob car comparison by Naturalis+Philosopho · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty anti-nuke, but your argument just makes me think about being "dead right". It's like entering an intersection when you have the green but someone is running the red- you'll be in the right on the accident report, but you'll still be dead. That said, having the sheer number of warheads in existence that we have is just asking for the laws of probability to catch up to us with an accident. Let alone not using/sharing the PALs...

  25. Guy in the Video by phantomcircuit · · Score: 1

    Wait does the guy in the video arm that fucking bomb?

    1. Re:Guy in the Video by petes_PoV · · Score: 1
      Wait does the guy in the video arm that fucking bomb?

      No, it's a training "dummy" that was used by the RAF until they had them taken away in the 90's. Now the only nukes the brits have are in trident submarines, which they have to buy from the americans.

      --
      politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    2. Re:Guy in the Video by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      No, but he does steal your bike.

  26. CPE1704TKS by Zymergy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Come on! Someone else admit it.
    I can't be the ONLY geek and "WarGames" fan to have once used "CPE1704TKS" or "CPE-1704-TKS" as a password. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086567/goofs

  27. It's Simple by hyades1 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    The Brits don't need all that security stuff on their A-Bombs. They keep their madmen out of government and the armed forces. In America, they promote them.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  28. Obligatory Doctor Who... by D'Arque+Bishop · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Brigadier: [Describing the secret missile-sites information hidden in the safe of the cabinet minister] ...and naturally the only country that could be trusted with such a role was Great Britain.
    The Doctor: Well, naturally; I mean, the rest are all foreigners!

  29. Metal Gear Solid by samu0086 · · Score: 1

    MGS for PSX taught me all I need to know about the PALS authentication system and international terrorism. Campbell : I'm afraid so. At the very least, they've got their hands on a real nuclear warhead. Snake : Isn't there some kind of safety device to prevent this kind of terrorism? Campbell : Yes. Every missile and warhead in our arsenal is equipped with a PAL, which uses a discreet detonation code. Snake : PAL? Campbell : Permissive Action Link. A safety control system built into all nuclear weapons systems. But even so, we can't rest easy. Snake : Why not? Campbell : Because the DARPA Chief knows the detonation code. Snake : But even if they have a nuclear warhead, it must've been removed from its missile. All the missiles on these disposal sites are supposed to be dismantled. It's not that easy to get your hands on an ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missle). Campbell : That used to be true, but since the end of the Cold War you can get anything if you have enough money and the right connections.

    --
    Mild-mannered college student by day, DinoPark Tycoon by night.
  30. You are an idiot by LordZardoz · · Score: 1

    No sane leader threatens directly to use their nukes. At least not publicly.

    Nations with nuclear weapons generally have a policy that they will not use them except under 2 conditions.

    1) You invade us.
    2) You nuke us first.

    If everyone has nukes, and no one uses theirs first, then no one will use them at all.

    Nukes on a submarine are a deterrent as a 2nd strike option. Targeting a nuke silo is fairly easy. You just figure out where it is and aim for them first, and enemy cities second. Targeting a nuclear submarine (or one of Russia's nuke trains) that move around all the goddamn time and are pretty hard to spot is effectively impossible.

    END COMMUNICATION

    1. Re:You are an idiot by wosmo · · Score: 1

      Since we took them away from the RAF, the UK's nuclear fleet is our only nuclear capability. Considering even the French manage to bear four SSBN and an airlaunch capability, I think maintaining the Trident fleet is the least we can do. We really can't be shown up by the French .. And as to the actual article, the comment made to the BBC regarding trusting the navy is spot on. If you don't trust your Senior Officers with a nuclear arsenal, don't send them off to sea with 40-off warheads.

  31. A recent newspaper article claimed otherwise by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...that Pakistan's nukes do NOT have PALs installed.

    So somebody has got it wrong. Either they had them in 2003 or they didn't - or only some of them have it. The article I read said that Pakistan relied on separating the fissile material and the rest of the weapon components to keep them secure. And that Pakistan has not and will not reveal the location of their weapons to the US, fearing that the US would take them out if the US perceived they were at threat of being seized by Islamic militants in the country, leaving Pakistan defenseless against India's nuclear arsenal.

    I suspect the earlier article about PALs was propaganda intended to allay people's fears that Pakistan's nukes are inadequately controlled.

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
  32. No surprises... by bokmann · · Score: 1

    I mean, have you ever really looked at the mechanics of a vintage MG?

  33. Two compromised people by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 1

    The system needs to be secure against two compromised people. As an example of two compromised people getting together in the same room and pulling off something crazy, I have two words: Harris and Klebold.

    --
    That that is is that that that that is not is not.
  34. Paki nukes are disassembled by Werrismys · · Score: 1
    As I read it, the paki nukes are stored in parts in secret locations (because that country is right now in a turmoil). They do not have operational nukes ready but can assemble one quickly.

    But, this info comes from a Finnish newspaper, cannot remember which, and we have strict social-democratic and multicultural self-censorship in place, so it may be inaccurate.

    --
    'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
  35. Not Bicycle Locks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The actual keys (of which I have held one) are not bicycle lock keys, they merely share a similar outword appearence/size. The key is a heck of a lot more complex, as was the mechanism (and each key was unique). Furthermore, each weapon was guarded by groups of soldiers with very clear orders to shoot *anyone* who tried to gain access without the proper authorization. When tensions increased and aircraft were on alert (armed up on the flight line), the guards had orders to shoot at any aircraft attempting to take off with a live weapon, there was also a system of gates to prevent an aircraft from reaching the runway without the proper permits.

    Part of the reason we didn't use PALS was that we were in closer proximity to the USSR, with less warning. Our government was (and still is) less resilient to a suprise attack than say the US. One suprise strike on London could eliminate our civilian chain of command instantly, the lack of PALS meant our forces could react to such events faster.

    Fact is it worked, we also didn't have nuclear weapons going 'astray' back then either.

  36. Pals by dangitman · · Score: 1

    Plas don't let pals use nuclear weapons.

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
  37. Open Code Review by StickyWidget · · Score: 1
    If ever there was a place and time for an open code review between all nations, it would be the safety mechanisms protecting nuclear weapons from accidental triggering or malicious tampering.

    Imagine it, all the nuclear nations in the world get together and define the standard way to secure the complex weapons of destruction. The minimum amount a pin code has to have, the dual key system, all of it. Oh, and while they are talking, maybe we should talk about nuclear disarmament too.

    It's amazing, all this hubbub over open voting machines, and no-one knows how easy it is to brute force a nuke.

    ~Sticky
    /0000
    //0001
    /..//4242 KABOOM!

  38. Missiles by Sanat · · Score: 1

    I was 2nd in command of a three man Combat Targeting Team back in the 60's. Our mission was to enter the launch codes into the missile guidance section and to optically align the missile to true north.

    Our work of course caused us to carry classified information such as launch codes, war plans, etc. we had top secret crypto clearances for this work and while we were in the missile silo's actually performing our work we were protected by air police who would repel any intruders that might try to penetrate the missile site while it was open.

    We each carried a sidearm usually a .38 revolver and we worked with the two man concept that we knew the job and we would shoot the other if something unusual was taking place.

    To get into the missile site we had to authenticate with secret codes and one time the launch commander at the launch control facility mis-authenticated my team leader's code and so they sent out a strike team to apprehend us.

    We carried launch codes and so we forced to defend them by drawing our weapons and the strike team thought we were enemies impersonating Air Force personnel trying to illegally enter a missile silo and so we all had our weapons drawn and what stopped any more escalation was that the air policeman who had guard duty with us personally knew one guy from the strike team.

    Everyone there was doing what they were trained to do but the circumstances made things real hairy. I reflect sometimes on what might have happened if the two air police did not recognize each other.

    --
    And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
    1. Re:Missiles by DTemp · · Score: 1

      Great story, thanks for sharing.

  39. Israel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder. Are the nukes that the Israelis are not supposed to have equipped with PALS, or just a quick pushbutton switch so they can nuke Iran so much faster?

  40. Correction: Not between "two members of NATO" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The text is deeply misleading when it refers to an "armed struggle between two members of NATO" in 1974. The only armed conflict was between Turkey and Cyprus. Cyprus is an independent, sovereign nation, it's not part of Greece, and it's not part of NATO. The fact that the conflict was between Turkey and Greek-speaking Cypriots doesn't change that fact.

    In 1974 Greece was under a CIA-backed military Junta. They orchestrated a coup in Cyprus (with the knowledge and backing of the CIA) that deposed the left-leaning president and installed a nationalist puppet regime for a week. The coup leaders were rabidly anti-Communist and anti-Turkish Cypriot, and indiscriminately targetted communists and Turkish Cypriots. A week later, ostensibly under its obligation as a Guarantor Power and to protect the Turkish-speaking minority, Turkey invaded Cyprus. The coup leaders fled, the Greek officers leading the National Guard fled, the leaderless National Guard was crushed, Cyprus was partially occupied and partitioned, and the Greek Junta collapsed in confusion.

    It greatly benefit other countries, like the USA and the UK, to present the problem as being between Greece and Turkey, as that then gives the impression that Greek and Turkish diplomats could solve the problem by sitting down and talking about it. The BBC, which should know better, talks about "the disputed island of Cyprus". However, Greece has never had a territorial claim on Cyprus, and apart from a few loony right-wing Greek-Cypriot nutjobs, nobody in Cyprus wants that either.

    Whatever your position and view on the Cyprus conflict, Greece and Turkey were never fighting each other. Aided and abetted by loony nationalists in both communities, they simply fucked Cyprus one after the other.

    Disclaimer: I'm Greek Cypriot, but I have no love for Greece.

  41. For the last freaking time... by monktus · · Score: 1

    UK != England

    --
    Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel."
  42. Get your DRM off my missles! by Jeff+Carr · · Score: 1

    I don't know about you, but when I buy a nuke, I want to buy the actual nuke, not a "license" to launch one. I'm not willing to accept that mine might be disabled because the provider has gone out of business and it no longer accepts my license key.

    This is bullshit, and the whole reason I've been boycotting the nukes bing sold by the NNSA and their watchdogs.

    --
    The television will not be revolutionized.
  43. Dr. Strangelove... by TheBanzerfaust · · Score: 1

    You've got to love that 'Dr. Strangelove: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb' reference at http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html

    Hint: Last line...

    Types of PALs
    There have been a number of different types of PALs used over the years.

    Combination lock
            The earliest control mechanism was a three-digit combination lock. Later versions were four-digit locks designed to accommodate split-knowledge, where two different individuals could each have half the key. The combination lock can do different things. Some block the volume into which firing components must be inserted, others block electrical circuits, while still others prevent access to the fuzing and arming mechanisms.

    These locks were in use at least as recently as 1987. In 1981 -- almost 20 years after PALs were invented -- about half of the U.S. nuclear weapons in Europe were still protected by mechanical locks [SF87].
    CAT A
            CAT A PALs, intended for use on missiles, were electromechanical switches. The arming input was a 4-digit decimal number. (Some sources say it was a 5-digit number.) Crews used a portable electronic device that plugged into the weapon to arm it.
    CAT B
            The CAT B PAL, used on bombs, was similar in spirit to the CAT A, but used fewer wires. This permitted remote control of the PAL from an airplane cockpit. With the CAT B, it is also possible to check the code, relock the weapon, or rekey it. Later models of the CAT B included a limited-try feature, rekeying, and a code-controlled lock.
    CAT C
            The CAT C PAL accepts 6-digit keys. A limited-try feature disables the bomb if too many incorrect keys are entered. Most references omit the CAT C. It may just be a later model of the CAT B.
    CAT D
            The CAT D PAL accepts 6-digit keys. A given PAL can accept a number of different keys, permitting different groups of weapons to be unlocked with one transmission. Some keys are used for training; others are used to disarm the weapon or to disable it. One source [CAH84] suggests that PAL codes can also be used to vary the yield on some weapons. There are a number of selectable mechanisms to disable the bomb. In addition, there are "violent or nonviolent methods for destroying the warhead or making it irreparably nonfunctional" [C87c]. (One report, which I have not yet seen confirmed in the literature, is that the violent option involves a shaped charge which destroys the symmetry of the pit. It is thus no longer able to fission until it has been remachined -- and machining plutonium is non-trivial.) One reference suggests that there is a remote disable option on some PALs.
    CAT F
            The CAT F PAL appears to be similar to the CAT D, but it accepts a 12-digit key.

    The 1984 price for a CAT D PAL was $50,000 [CAH84].

    I haven't yet found anything about setting C.R.M.-114 discriminators to "FGD 135", let alone "OPE"...

  44. Dr. Strangelove by 32771 · · Score: 1

    The abreviated version. ...

    Lieutenant Colonel Jack D. Ripper: I would love to come Lionel but the string in my leg has gone ...

    Air Chief Marshal Lionel Mandrake: Come here Ripper, the Redcoats are comming! ...

    There, fixed that little issue.

    --
    Je me souviens.