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Apple 10.4.11 Update Can Brick Macs With Boot Camp
g-san writes "Some Mac users are having problems with the latest 10.4.11 update, yours truly included. The problem seems to be caused by the presence of a Boot Camp partition and renders the Mac unable to reboot after the update fails. Note the Geniuses at the Apple stores are recommending a full disk wipe; but data can be recovered via Firewire." MacNN has a note up that if you fall victim to this "known issue" and need to reformat the disk, you can't reinstall Boot Camp because it is no longer available to OS X 10.4 Tiger users.
We have four or five people in a thread and it's news? Please. In addition, this is NOT A BRICKING. Bricking means it's completely inoperable. If you can reinstall, it's not bricked. Period. I also find it hard to believe that you can't archive & install if something goes wrong, or at least do the plain old install.
The term "brick" is being bandied about pretty loosely these days. It does not mean, "I had a problem, possibly even one of my own creation, that can only be cured by re-installation, and that annoys me and I think I can get some blog hits by griping about it."
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Previously only a beta version was available. When they released the final version it was included with 10.5. It would be nice if they kept the beta that worked on 10.4 available, but it is beta software and it is understandable if they don't want to deal with the support headaches. If they were shipping a real version for 10.4, then they'd have to test every new patch to OS X and see if it worked with bootcamp (which admittedly would have been nice).
So you can lose all your files during a copy, an upgrade will break your computer requiring a re-install of the OS...
...and Vista is the one we're supposed to give up on?
Microsoft and Vista a mess most people don't want to touch or deal with.
Apple and OS X becoming more and more of just another buggy OS and app vendor but with a huge markup on their prices.
Almost everyone I know want to move on to an open vendor neutral platform like Linux and yet...
* We still have to competing desktops that are only marginally different in how they fail to deliver a commercial grade user experience
* KDE klowns are still sitting around slapping each other on the back about naming everything with the idiotic K in front and doing a poor job of cloning Windows 2000
* Gnome still has Microsoft fanboys infesting open source desktops with Microsoft patent time bombs
* Open source/Linux developers still can't seem to grasp the most basic principals of font usage, UI element spacing and alignments, colour choice, and so on and instead are pointlessly trying to 'prove they are ahead' with inane 3D accelerated desktop effects no one wants
* A million sub 1.0 apps all of which do some things right and other things wrong but no single apps that actually get things people expect from commercial desktop software. And each of those open source apps depend on a hundred million crazily named library packages that are constantly getting updated.
The computing world WANTS to jump to Linux. They've been wanting to for years. They are waiting for you open source kids to finally grow up and get your shit together.
Not sure what the exact symptoms are, because no one in this thread seems to have actually experienced the issue. If its an issue where you turn the computer on, and all you get is the Apple logo and spinning gear, follow these directions:
If you have access to another Mac that is still working:
1. Put the 'broken' Mac in FireWire Disk Mode (reboot while holding down "T").
2. Attach via FireWire, the HD shows up on the desktop.
3. Download the 10.4.11 Combo update and re-install it on the "broken" Mac. Make sure its the "Combo" update. Get it by searching for "10.4.11 Combo" at apple.com/support
4. Reboot the "broken" Mac, it should just work now.
If you have a bootable external drive (always good for troubleshooting and recovery!), boot the "broken" Mac to the external drive and follow the above steps from 3.
Its actually really quick and easy to fix. Hope this helps.
If you can get it to work again via routine tasks (like reinstalling the OS on HDD) it is technically not a brick. A "bricked" Mac would almost always require you to send in the machine to the manufacturer to unbrick.
Never apply updates through Apple's automatic Software Update. Use Software Update as a reference to evaluate the state of your install. Use the disk image downloads from the software update page. Wait at least two weeks from the date the update is released while watching the discussion groups and mailing lists for "issues". As far as 'Boot Camp' is concerned, Parallels Workstation beats it 'hands down'. NQA. On a dual 'Dual Core' MacPro, Parallels is the fastest booting 'PeeCee' I've ever used. Bar none. If you have 'years' of personal data on your drive you should always 'image first, update later'. Expect 'Something Stupid'(TM) to happen no matter what you do.
Yeah if you're running a beta boot loader that you've hacked to prevent it from expiring (or intentionally set your system clock to a couple months ago) and you install an OS system update on it without waiting to see how it works on other people's hacked machines, then your system may not boot until you fix it. Why is the OS relevant in this case again?
I know I'll probably be modded down for this, but...
Don't mind the extra X. Alex
Sure, but one that only shows up if you're running expired beta software, so not really a priority for Apple.
Why doesn't Apple let Tiger users download Bootcamp? Smells like a "forced update".Umm, because it is a feature of their new OS and they want people to pay for new features. The only way this is different from all the other new features in 10.5 is that they offered a beta that worked on 10.4 and told you when you installed it that:
If someone installed an update and was still running the 10.5 beta instead of the real version and it broke something, would you complain that Apple was just trying to get money out of them by forcing them to buy the real version instead of testing and supporting the beta still?
Apple has insufficiently tested updates before and messed up and accidentally broken fixes with updates and deserve to be taken to task when that happens. They've been pretty good about getting right on the problem and issuing a new fix within a week or so. This, however, expired beta software, seems like a non-issue to me.
Moreso what is with the over use of the term 'bricked' lately. My understanding was that 'to brick a device' was to make it unusable ever again creating a possibly expensive paperweight. The last handful of stories using the term (mostly related to Apple) have all had undo solutions leaving the hardware in a working state. Did a miss a memo some where a long the way?
I ate your fish.
I agree that it does not render the MAc bricked, but I'd dispute that reinstalling an OS is routine. It might be simple, fast, easy etc.. but its not and shouldn't have to be routine.
It's in the same location as the proof of your assertions...
I'm running the same system described in the topic of this thread, I run Boot Camp, and I haven't any problems at all.
By the way, I can boot in 17 seconds from power on to open browser. If Microsoft could do that and have zero threat of virii, I'd be running MS operating systems. Heck, if Linux could run the software I use I'd use that. Too bad it doesn't, but hey, there it is.
- real hackers don't have sigs -
What?! I haven't seen anything about these users running a beta boot loader hacked to prevent it expiring, it only seems to be related to Boot Camp.
Why is the OS an issue? Well on non-Apple PCs booting into other OSes is taken for granted, and isn't expected to affect OS updates. Apparently on Macs booting into other OSes is an amazing new innovation called "Boot Camp", and an update to an OS causes the ability to dual boot to break, and requires you to reformat your entire hard disk.
Can you imagine if a Windows update made your computer unable to boot if you had it set up to dual-boot into Linux? Why do people rush to the defense of Apple when they completely fuck up and make a mockery of their cheesy "it just works" phrase?
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
No, I'm sorry, he had a point. An Apple approved McUpdate makes the system unusable until you reinstall the entire OS. Here's something from TFA Today, while working normally, I was "pinged" by Software Update that there were updates ready to install. I said "go ahead".
Halfway through, I received a message similar to "Software Update has encountered an unexpected issue, you must restart".
I selected restart. My machine will no longer boot (on the mac side), getting to the final (~100%) "blue line" on start up screen and than hanging.
I have tried many times (and also let it "think" for many hours) to no avail.
I just returned from the local Apple Store "Genius Bar" (a whole other story - not pleasant) where they tried to boot from CD, but the only option is to erase the entire drive and all data to do so. This guy was sitting there working and Steve Jobs sent him a message, "We Mcwent ahead and Mcdownloaded an Mcupdate. Would you Mclike to install it and reboot-in-tosh-X?" Of course, he's gonna say yes. Now all his stuff is gone. That novel he spent all those hours at Starbucks writing... gone. That Quicktime of his little girl's first steps... gone. All that porn! That glorious, beautiful PORN!!! GONE!!!! Why? Because he trusted Steve Jobs and Apple.
So, yeah, it's not officially bricked, but only a fanboi would argue the definition to someone who has just lost everything on their hard drive. If it were a Windows update that crashed a PC, this McFanBoi would be screaming about how much Windows and Bill Gates suck and how he's so happy he does not have to worry about stuff like that because he has a Mac.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Not news? Hell, it's news to me that you can't reinstall the McOS without formatting the drive!
All data is intact; otherwise you couldn't access it by Firewire Target Disk mode, or by booting from a CD. Something is simply screwing with the initial boot process.
Evidently, booting off a CD does not work. From TFA: I just returned from the local Apple Store "Genius Bar" (a whole other story - not pleasant) where they tried to boot from CD, but the only option is to erase the entire drive and all data to do so. As for Firewire Target Disk mode, you need another Mac to do that. "Do what? I have to spend another $8,000 for another Mac so I can get my data back that your update hosed?!!? Can't I just borrow one of the 500 you have sitting around here?" Apple claims (both in-store and on the phone) that they do not do data recovery nor do they know who does or how to do it. And what if you are not a bonified expert on Mac? I guess you could call one of those McGeniuses you see them speak so highly of on TV: Apparently, they claim there is no other option (they also do not see any issues at all with having a update that can cause this type of catastrophic failure without some sort of indication of the risks thereof - i.e, "please back up all of your data before installing this upgrade) I can't wait for the next commercial "Hi, I'm a PC."
"And I'm a Maaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-aaa.... "
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
How is a problem that can be fixed with a reinstall "bricking" a mac? Bricking is when you permanently ruin something! I agree the problem is bad but it isnt that bad!
http://watching-eyes.blogspot.com/
OK, how about we change the players: "Some XP users are having problems with the latest Windows Update, yours truly included. The problem seems to be caused by the presence of a Linux dual boot partition and renders the PC unable to reboot after the update fails. Note that Microsoft is recommending a full disk wipe; but data can be recovered via Firewire."
CNet has a note up that if you fall victim to this "known issue" and need to reformat the disk, you can't reinstall Linux because Microsoft has disallowed dual-booting with XP, so users must upgrade to Vista in order to dual-boot into Linux." Now is it "completely overblown"? Or would you in fact be trashing Microsoft for the next 6 months over this?
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
My eyes were first attracted to the word "bricked" only to realise that it was again not "bricked" but just someone aiming high with a sensationalist headline.
I feel that bricked = no longer functional with no redemption at all.. I.e your hardware might as well be a brick. The ability to extract your data and at worst having to then format the system and reinstall the OS is rather far from "bricking" and it's a pretty standard procedure in the event of a virus or OS-level corruption.
I have included a handy guide of examples of ways to brick your computer.
- Bring your computer swimming.
- Puncture your laptop battery and watch the fireworks, wait until computer is smoldering mess before extinguishing.
- Operate your machine in the near vicinity of high voltage Tesla coil.
- Drop your computer off some ridiculous glass walkway in the middle of the desert.
Right, and the next thing you'll be saying is that Linux is just a kernel. (j/k)
I use Gentoo and the last time I reinstalled it was when I got a new computer maybe 4 years ago.
:)
Still works flawless. Windows would be begging to be reinstalled by now.
I think the GP was trying to make a joke about the 24 hours plus install times for Gentoo.
Sure it takes long but once its done its absolutely fantastic.
Can you imagine if a Windows update made your computer unable to boot if you had it set up to dual-boot into Linux? Why do people rush to the defense of Apple when they completely f-BEEP-k up and make a mockery of their cheesy "it just works" phrase?
I'm with you on this one. (as I type away on my Mac-mini) I would be UTTERLY LIVID if a Windows update horked my grub bootloader, Apple deserves no less rage for this shenanigan. Apple, are you listening?
I have a problem with them dictating what I can and can't do with their stuff, especially when they'd previously indicated that I can do this. And no, I don't have boot camp. I don't care about boot camp. I have computers running Linux, Windows, and MacOS all throughout my house. (I'm a CTO / Software engineer, I have about a dozen computers in my house right now)
When you buy a product, ANY product, there's an implied agreement. I don't expect to run OSX on any old computer - it has to be an Apple; but in exchange for this limitation I expect drivers and such to be more or less a non-issue, which it pretty much always has been. (The latest OSX doesn't work on my ancient cherry 400 Mhz PPC iMac anymore... ugh) OSX is the most closed OS around - it's locked to specific hardware, there are no drivers that I can download anywhere, and it works how it works or I load in binary hacks that jeopordize the stability of the system.
Windows, on the other hand, is more open. In exchange for a bit of roughness around drivers and such, I get the opportunity to run it on anything X86. (Even newer Macs!) I don't get to modify the OS per se, but there are plenty of ports for drivers, software, etc. that extend, tweak, and refine the operations of the OS.
Linux is the most open. Everything is available to me, including sources. But I'm in the wild-wild west if I should do *anything* unusual. I can literally create my own Operating System from the ground up, line-by-line if I desire, with Linux. This degree of openness is really more than I can handle, so I make a subsequent deal with a distributor (in my case, Red Hat) to box-up the Operating System and provide a consistent experience so that I can rely on various things to be present, including drivers and such.
Counter-intuitively, the support structure for Linux is most like Macintosh - I have to make sure I have supported hardware, and if a particular piece of hardware hasn't been blessed by your particular distro, you have to resort to some weird hacks and custom-compiled software, but within that, management is a dream, and usually "just works".
For example, to load a CentOS/RedHat system from install to completely updated requires just a load, a single up2date (or yum -y update) command, and a single reboot. Raw hardware to fully updated in under an hour. MacOS is very similar. Windows takes 2 days of updates, driver downloads, and reboots. I can only use CentOS/Ubuntu with hardware on their HCL, unless I want to pull up the sleeves and spend an afternoon dickering. These qualities are much like MacOS.
From a management perspective, RedHat/Ubuntu == Apple.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
just that his attempts to spin this as 'not a big deal' are laughable...
How is it spin when it is true?
Read through the threads in response. There are something like seventeen different reasons why this is not a big deal:
1) If you just let it continue to boot (for a few hours) it will eventually work anyway.
2) Bootcamp being non-functional is an issue the guy would have to face someday anyway, since Bootcamp on Tiger is an expired beta. Anyone using it at all seriously should have a bootable backup of the drive at hand, as it will keep working indefinatley but you cannot reinstall bootcamp at this point (well, unless you are smart enough to set the date back - I guess that's 2.5!).
3) OS X reinstall does not require wiping the whole drive as many people have noted.
Those are three of the biggest ones...
Basically you are coming in and saying a guy with "Mac" in his name (indicating he probably owns a Mac) is incorrect in his assessment, a fact which you (probably not a Mac owner) are in less of a position to determine correctly than he is! Once again, where is the geek-related skills to determine the most likely source of correct knowledge on this issue?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yes, I'm quite sure the guy decided to lie to the whole internet, because it is utterly unthinkable that some kid making ten bucks an hour at an Apple Store in a mall somewhere would be wrong, or uninterested in helping.
The people at Genius Bars are not superheroes, they don't actually care about your problems, and the minute percentage of Mac users experiencing this problem does not warrant training every Apple Store employee everywhere.
Apple's a corporation, not your best friend. Learn not to be aghast when someone suggests they may be behaving as such.
REM Old programmers don't die. They just GOSUB without RETURN.
Even the software isn't up to snuff any more. I use iTunes on Vista and the thing still doesn't work properly after having something like 10 updates since Vista appeared. It still shows black screens, still chokes on MP4 video and still crashes randomly. Piece of crap that it is.
Actually, I'm not sure how that changes anything, but I thought I'd pull out the typical Slashbot response ahead of time. It is one of those cute catchphrases that people say to feel like they're a part of a group consensus, so they can't possibly be wrong.
Ah, the fall from Grace.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!