Slashdot Mirror
New Nerve Gas Antidotes
SoyChemist writes "Scientists from Korea and the Czech Republic have discovered new drugs that can counteract the chemical overload caused by nerve gas. All of the experimental medications belong to a family of chemicals called oximes. Those molecules reactivate the enzyme that is damaged by the chemical weapons. Last year, the FDA approved the first combined atropine and oxime auto-injector for use by emergency personnel. Israel has been providing them to their citizens since the first Gulf War."
"Last year, the FDA approved the first combined atropine and oxime auto-injector for use by emergency personnel."
I don't know the history, but in 1987(and certainly earlier) the US military had this for the 'troops'. It was in 2 injectors, not one.
atropine and 2 pam chloride (a oxime)
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
Although I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Like you said - Pralidoxime and Atropine injectors are extremely old-school for the US military. Although I'm happy that there are new drugs for treating nerve gas poisoning, TFA makes it sound like the "new" drugs are still completely untested - only on petri dish models, if I read it correctly. So, while there is promise, there are no human or animal efficiency results yet, no toxicity tests - all kinds of things are needed to prove that these new molecules are appropriate to replace the old ones.
That's the thing about new drugs - they look wonderful and promising for a while in the lab, then you stick them in a monkey and his testicles melt or his hair falls out. Oops - back to the drawing board.
Anyway, I'm skeptical but hopeful. I've had biochem weapons training in the Army, and nerve gases are effing nasty. More power to providing more survivability...
So, will this work on participants in the OS Flame Wars? They seem to be acting like they were hit with nerve gas over at "Leopard As The New Vista right now. Maybe they just need some tranquilizers.
Pralidoxime has been used with Atropine for a long time it seems, Atropine lessening the effects of acetylcholine its self and Pralidoxime is sacrificed to reactivate acetylcholine esterase [which helps remove acetylcholine after it is done with its job]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralidoxime
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Yeah. I saw this in that "Rock" movie about a bazillion years ago where Sean Connery pretended he wasn't British and Nick Cage pretended he could act.
As an Israeli citizen I can assure you that the threat of chemical attack on Israeli civilian population is very real. All enemies of Israel posess chemical weapons and have repeatedly stated their willingness to use them against civilians.
Israel is as much to blame as anybody for the problems in the Middle East. Read up on some damn history that doesn't confine itself to Nazi death camps and the 1976 Olympics, just for a change!
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
The FDA isn't going to approve it without sufficient testing. Although there's no way they exposed a human to nerve gas and then used these drugs to see if it worked, there's no way that kind of test will EVER happen. The best they can do is what they've already done and that was sufficient to get it approved.
Also, these drugs don't need to be tested as thoroughly as other drugs that would be taken on a normal basis. For example, the Advil you buy at the store had better damn well be tested enough that you know what's going to happen when you take it, because you take it on a normal basis. But a drug to counteract a nerve toxin is only going to be taken if you've been exposed to the nerve toxin. At that point, it's either die from the nerve toxin or have at least some chance of survival by taking this new drug. If it kills you, you were going to die anyway, if it doesn't then you live.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
Troll in the dungeons!
But yeah, like the Israeli said, we Jews have this paranoid fixation on staying alive. The Israelis also have this thing for living in the rightful homeland of the Jewish people. When combined, you get the government giving civilians anti-nerve-gas tablets.
That's kind of an irrelevant argument, though. If these lands are so valuable as religious resources, then every single occupier of that land would have had to keep the surrounding countries at bay for the entire occupation. Since that is clearly not the case, given the long periods of relative peace prior WWI, I don't see how having "key cities" is in any way apropos to the conversation unless you are also arguing that Israel is in some way preventing foreign pilgrims from accessing these monuments.
As for the land claims, as I've mentioned, there has been quite a bit of time to reach a settlement on the majority of those claims. Are you saying that Israel has no fault in this and that it is purely a matter of the claimants not "burying the hatchet"?
I'm being serious here... In the case that I ever end up in a public space where it becomes obvious that a nerve gas has been released, (and there is no clear way of getting out ie. subway system, sports venue...) I would take off one of my socks and piss on it.
???????
This was commonly done in WWI during nerve gas attacks. With lack of gas masks, the best way to protect yourself was to breathe through a cloth soaked in ammonia. Piss being the easiest source of it.
The modern gases may be way more advanced than what was used in early 20th century, so my approach may come across as dumb, but if they find my dead body sucking on a piss stained sock, I won't care much. I'll be dead.
then you stick them in a monkey and his testicles melt or his hair falls out
Military members are statutorily barred from suing the government for injuries arising in the line of duty. See here.
Government contractors are also immune from products liability suits, so long as the product in question was designed according to military specifications. See here.
Things the recruiter doesn't tell you... Hopefully the government tests carefully before using!
"If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
Okay, here's today's English lesson.
Beg the question
This phrase is so misused that its incorrect meaning has almost become the primary meaning.
The incorrect meaning I am referring to is "which brings up the question..." This usage ignores the original meaning which was to point out a logical flaw in an argument where the arguer has tried to establish a point based on a proposition which is assumed.
The Israelis also have this thing for living in the rightful homeland of the Jewish people.
Doesn't that beg the question?
when I was flooding the Enrichment Center with a deadly neurotoxin.
I can show you, too. Just wait a moment while I warm up the neurotoxin emitters.
-- GLaDOS
Exactly - every doctor learned this back in medical school; atropine is a temporary fix (anti-cholinergic) and pralidoxime allows regeneration of AChesterase to some degree so your body can naturally remove it. It's a little bit of a juggling act, and needs monitoring for levels. Most (civilian) MDs see something like this with pesticide spray (farmer inadvertently sticks his hand in liquid "nerve gas" organophosphate bug spray, etc.) not chemical attacks, but we all get training in this (standard emergency medicine situation).
The new drug is also an oxime -- you can look at the compound and it "looks" like two pralidoxime molecules joined together with a short linking segment (compare this to this. The goal is potency -- I've never personally injected pralidoxime, but I understand its effects on regeneration are limited.
Interestingly enough, in the otherwise healthy individual atropine would "just" cause your heartrate to skyrocket. If I were Nick Cage in that scene, I would go ahead and inject it into a vein, not the heart. Intra-cardiac injection can be used, but only as a last, last resort (e.g. the person is about to go unconscious, they are the only ones who can deliver the medication, no IV to use / no way to reliably otherwise introduce the drug, etc. etc.) It makes for dramatic movie moments, though!
Slashdotter, ID #101. UIDs are in binary, right?
And of course if it kills your family gets to sue the drug company, even though you were going to die anyway. Win/win.
No, don't assume that I am condoning anything that Israel did or did not do, the issue is a little more complicated than "Israel doesn't communicate effectively enough". There are a good number of people in the area that view Israli occupation of religious sites to be repulsive to say the least regardless of how open the sites really are to pilgrimages.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
great now I know that when a terrorist throws a nerve gas bomb I can survive and watch how Jack Bauer kills all of the terrorists.
I remember way back when, drinking some belladonna tea to get the hallucinatory effects of atropine.. http://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=30718 My experience posted up on Erowid, gah it's scary stuff.
- Aetheral Research -
You know, 8 years ago, I would have agreed that this would never be tested, and I don't think the FDA will, but 8 years ago, I would not have believed that bringing someone to the edge of drowning to force a confession or get information would be something the US government would openly admit to either. If the government is openly admitting to basically the same kind of actions that were condemned as atrocities committed by the witch hunters of early America, I don't see how there would be much issue for them to perform chemical experiments on secret prison inmates.
I also think that the genie is out of the bottle, so if this line does get crossed, I don't think it will be limited to only one party or the other.
Sadly there's one bit of military equipment that desperately needed testing before being used in the line of duty, but didn't receive it: the current Commander-in-Chief.
The test subjects had all been subjected to abnormal levels of radiation, throwing off their ATC readings. If you had actually read the information contained in the public reports and... uh, been a doctor, you would have found that over half of the patients tested positive for antidepressants marketed in the United States. ZERO PERCENT of the patients NOT on the drugs tested positive for any of the "criminal" symptoms.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.
LOL @ my bot-check word being "receptor"
Hey man, you want a hit of this? This stuff'll melt the testicles off a monkey
The whole thing is a wonderful ball of insanity, as everybody thinks that their own interpretation of the Invisible Friend in the Sky wants them to occupy some particular patch of dirt.
If anyone's technically to blame for the problems in the Middle East, it's the Jews -- the ancient Jews, who were the first to invent the eternally-PMS'ing, cranky, smite-happy, horse-blinders-distributing warmongering Jehovah.
The world would be a much more peaceful place if the three Abrahamic religions vanished tomorrow.
The US Military has been using Atropine auto injectors since the 70's, but there's no requirement for FDA approval. There's also a auto injector of Pam-2 chloride to be used to neutralize the toxicity of the Atropine. The Atropine and Pam-2 chloride injectors are issued in a box of two each that each soldier/sailor/marine carries when at 'MOPP' level anticipating a chemical attack or training for such. Anyone whose been through basic training or who has trained with a combat related unit probably has fond memories of long hours spent in MOPP suites, gas masks, and practice with the fake injectors for training. The only difference I see with this new antidote is that's its FDA approved for civilian use. Mark
Now it's in one. That's what's new.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Here lies old YU, done in by the mob.
The gas didn't get him, though it would have done a good job.
Halfway down he slid his left sock,
but his piss was already released in his jock.
It's not about religion or about not forgetting the past. It really isn't. There is an ongoing situation that remains today. We have now a whole generation of displaced people who grew up in refugee camps. The palestinian people are embargoed with all entrances and exits controlled by Israeli forces. Their government ministers can't even visit another country without Israel's permission and trade and supplies have been blocked as a means of punishing the Palestinian people. When the Palestinian people elected by a clear majority a government that the Israeli's didn't approve of (Hamas), trade was blocked, international assets frozen and money withdrawn (the Palestinians are not allowed financial independence in much the same way that a person pinned in a wrestling match is not allowed to get an arm free). Israel even bombed a power station to ensure that electricity became more expensive and unreliable.
Israel now supports an alternative government that it does approve of which has tried, with partial success, to overthrow the one that was elected. The militia of this government has even been allowed abroad so that they can receive free training from the US or UK military (I forget which, I think US). Hamas was elected because they proved more trustworthy to the Palestinian people who were tired of the corruption of the previous government, had been heavily involved in preserving order, keeping schools and surgeries going. Hamas were the ones that got that British journalist released earlier this year. But Hamas are not liked by the Israeli and US governments. Hence the punishment of the Palestinian people for electing them.
The deputy leader of Hamas indicated that they would be willing to negotiate peace and accept the state of Israel. That is inconvenient to Israel as it doesn't really help them denounce the group as terrorist. But when a majority of a people elect a party, you can't really say that they're a terrorist group and that friction with them is terrorism. It is friction with a country, and to negotiate peace you have to engage with them, not install a government that will say what you want them to say and pretend that it's the will of the people.
Now what in all that depends on religious differences or past wrongs? The greatest trick of the Israeli government is to say that they are synonymous with the jewish people. That to be jewish is to support the Israeli government and that to condemn the Israeli government for its collective inhumanity is to be against the jewish people. That's a lie and it's one that Israel has used to great effect over the last forty years. There are many deeply religious people on all sides that would welcome peace and co-existence in a city that is holy to all of them. But power and money keep getting in the way.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Having had NBCDC training in the navy. I'm not sure I would want to survive the after effects of a nerve agent.
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." [taken from www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm]
"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." [http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html Preamble]
Doesn't sound like a peaceful government to me. How do you reckon that Hamas doesn't want to co-exist with a Jewish Israel state? Hamas is a _recognized_ terrorist organization due to its actions. Suicide bombing, declared jihad, and the obliteration of the Jewish state of Israel are the key points against Israel.
Furthermore, Hamas swayed Palestinian public opinion by promising social programs. All I've seen this government do in the last year is fight a civil war inside Gaza. How is increasing violence between Gaza refugees helping the Palestinians in that region?
As far as refugees, also consider that nearly 700k - 900k Jewish residents in Arab states were expelled out of Israel's surrounding neighbors. Compare this with the 750k displaced Moslem Arabs from the State of Israel. More Jews were displaced from their home in more countries and moved into Israel than Arabs had from Israel to neighboring countries. Many of these from countries that are not direct neighbors with Israel. The Middle East conflict is not entirely centered around countries sharing borders with Israel, and yet no one holds Yemen, Morocco, and other North African nations at fault for brutal state-sponsored discrimination of ethnic and religious peoples. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands]
Everyone enjoys throwing out facts about the displaced Moslem Arabs, but consider also the displaced Jewish residents abroad. Only then can your argument hold any ground.
Of course they will ! Why, they've got plenty of test subjects that can't sue if anything goes wrong.
Israel has the unfortunate problem of being an overly convienent scapegoat for its neighbor's internal problems. What better way to refocus the ire of your own people by pointing them to Israel. As such Israel has to take steps that others see as extreme or even ludicrous. No reasonable party would use nerve gas on a civilian population, right? Same as no reasonable party would bomb civilians with suicide/homicide bombers, right?
Read : When dealing with an unreasonable enemy you take steps that most sane people would consider unreasonable.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
You've obviously never been around a farm where ammonia tanks are kept. Hell, I probably fart more than 2ppm! A quick google check gives exposure limits of 25-300ppm depending on regulation authority and exposure type, and the LC50 for a mouse was over 5000ppm@1 hour!
I know a grizzled old farmer who could take a deep breath of fresh air, and without a mask or goggles, shut off a valve when some meth-head broke in and left one open. He'd done it multiple times. Granted, the guy is a complete badass, but still, ammonia is safe enough to use as a household cleaner (albeit not anhydrous).
You want real chemical weapons?
I was an EMT near the Umatilla Chemical Weapons depot, home of a lot of the USA's nastiest chemical weapons. Things that will kill in 100 mgs or less. (VX, GB etc, now being safely disposed of). We had the atropine injectors on standby for disasters, and given the deteriorating state of the bunkers and munitions, that's a good thing.
"Cheeze it!" - Bender
Right. The Mark I was two separate auto-injectors (2-pam chloride is somewhat more formally 2-pralidoxime chloride) Duodote is nice because it's in one package and it's now officially safe. Massachusetts, at least, allowed EMS to carry Mark I's to stick themselves and "fellow authorized emergency responders" with, and indeed gave them away for a while. The catch was that they don't have an especially long shelf life, so some private companies didn't bite because they would have been required to restock them at cost. It doesn't look like anything's going to change now.
A typical dose for atropine is 0.4 mg and is that very useful for colds and before surgery or dental work becuase it dries you up pretty good and ounces stuff isn't running down your throat; for nerve gas antidote that typical dose of atropine is 2.0 mg and it's not unusual for a second dose to be give 10 minutes later if the patients heart rate isn't at 120 and is very usful for keeping gallons of stuff from running down your thorat. We also classify nerve agent as reversable and irriversable i.e. a trversable agent is one where an antidote will reactivate the ACE denatured by the nerve gass, these oximes will only work with the reversables; if you get into something irreversable like VX the oximes are useless.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
We had a guy, he sort of the accident waiting to happen type, and he had gotten a hold of a live atropine autoinjector that was expred. In a NBC class he was intending to demonstrate the injector by activating it aganst a piece of cardboard; so what happened is he injected it through the cardboard and into his thumb and he's walking arround with the needle stuck in the bone! So we had to ship him off the the ER to get a tetanus shot, the needle pulled out and monitor him for fifty time the normal dose of atropine in his system. Years later I saw him again and he managed to cut the same thumb off to the first joint with a table saw.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Generally, nerve agents are not gasses they are liquids. The V series agents (i.e. VX) are persistent, non-volatile liquids meaning that they don't evaporate or produce vapors at a significant rate. The G series agents (i.e. GB aka sarin, which was used in the Tokyo subway attack) are also liquids. They are much more volatile and produce harmful vapors, but they are liquids at room temperature not gasses.
The problems with the movie is the auto injetors are normally injected IM into the v. Lateralis, 2 at 2 mg atropine each (and I did mean 2.0 not 0.2 mg) if the victim is symptomatic and the second problem is most military nerve agnets have a biological half-life of about two weeks (atropine is what about 6 hour?) and you can absorb LD-50 in about 18 seconds so your pretty shit-outa-luck with out a chem suit and protective mask. Also the agent like VX would persist in that enviroment for about a year.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
The Palestinians left at the urging of their "Arab Brothers" and when they did their "Brothers" stuck them in the refugee camps permantly for the PR value that sticking them in camps and blaming Isreal woulkd have. They could have became Isreali citizens way back when, and if they did instead of leaving, Isreal would be voting on makeing Islam the official religion today!
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Back in the 80's, I was working on a project where we modified rabbits to enable them to withstand sarin. The interesting part of that, was that it took 36 hours +- 2 hours before the rabbits reacted to our treatments. This will nullify that work.
Parent post gets modded 'insightful' instead of 'flamebait' or at the very least 'offtopic'? What's it got to do with nerve gas treatments?
I was trained as a NBC specialist for a swedish civil defence unit in the mid nineties and we had a comprehensive education about nerve agents and countermeasures. The Swedish armed forces and civil defence units had autoinjectors with atropine and a combination of enzymes. The enzymes were developed by the army and helped counteract the toxicity of the nerve agents. It was a single injector, not several as other countries use. Valium in low doses was also to be distributed when there was a danger of chemical attack, it has no effect on the nerve agents but supposedly reduced panic and would help you get the protective gear on faster, lol. I doubt that any really effective antidotes can be made to nerve agents. The lethal dose is so small even with the weakest ones like Tabun and Sarin and they are so fast acting.
Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.
As someone involved in this area of research I can assure you that oximes are not new, but are still being investigated as one of the only effective treatments.
An overview as to how they work.
The organophosphate (nerve agent) binds to acetylcholinesterase (nerves) and butyrlcholinesterase (blood) enzymes at first in a non-permanent fashion. Through a process called aging the binding becomes permanent. Oximes can stop the permanent bonding if given quickly enough.
Atropine and oximes are used by many countries as autoinjectors. Different countries use their favorite oxime. 2-PAM, and HI-6 are two examples.
All of this is out in the literature and has been for a long time.
Boy, To Girl: They may release nerve gas. I don't want to die...a virgin.
Girl: Oh, don't worry! I've got this antidote injector right here!
Boy: That's...that's just great.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Please change the title of this article to: New Nerve Gas Anecdotes
OBTW the OSHA and Army reg's require an annual testing respirators (Gas Masks) with an "irritant smoke" the civs use an smoke, but the Army uses CS, but there is no requirement to remove the mask in an irritating environment, other than a slightly sadistic tradition. I was in the NG and one year we were scheduled to use the gas-shack at Fort Custer, I had everything set up ready to go and was waiting for some troops, when the Marines began to arrive. I told the Marine Reserves NBC NCO, that we were scheduled but the more the merrier. The Marines road-marched 12 miles to the gas-shack with full rucksacks on a nice hot sweaty day went into the chamber that had about 3 times more CS in the air than I'd have used, and then started to do calisthenics in there. I'll tell you what, the guys that had a good seal had a GOOD seal, so I sent my guys through with the Marines, Muhahahaah. It amazed me how many people had a good seal and fit until they bent over or move a certain way.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Now what in all that depends on religious differences or past wrongs?
The fact that Israel had to be founded where it is. If the Jewish people wanted a homeland, there are plenty of places that aren't already occupied by crazies, but it *had* to be Jerusalem/Israel because of the religious implications. Note the name of the movement: they're not "Jewish nationalists", they're "Zionists", since it's important to have not just *any* homeland but to have *Zion*. We could have given them West Texas, for instance, which is pretty empty and has a climate roughly similar to Israel. But that won't do, since it's important to occupy the same patch of dirt as those people a long time ago who *first* got the idea of cutting off the end of your penis.
My comments aren't meant to condone the nasty things either the Israelis or Palestinians have done, but to point out that all the friction is at heart caused by religious desires.
Not every post has to be a reply to the original article.
Some posts can be replies to other posts. This is why we have this nifty "threaded" comment model, where posts can be replies to each other.
Neat, huh?
Well, I'd spotted that, thanks all the same for the sarcasm.
Not sure how that works with the 'offtopic' mod then?
I'm neither Jewish, nor pro or anti Jewish, by the way.
Just thought that this was a tech board primarily, not a soapbox for loonies.
(Althought I do love the humour!)
They also misrepresent the downsides of atropine use.
Basically organophosphates (including certain pesticides and all current generations of nerve gasses) work by disabling cholinesterase. When this enzyme is disabled, Ach builds up in nerve endings and never stops, hence the nerve essentially loses its off-switch. Eventually the muscles whcih support breathing seize up and/or paralyze from overstimulation, and the subject dies.
Atropine works by binding to the same receptors as ACH without activating them, hence turning off the nerves artificially. It is toxic, and the combination of the two together ought to have some interesting side effects (which interestingly have been known since ancient times-- there were certain Greek cults which used a combination of muscarine-producing mushrooms and belladonna in initiation rituals). At very least, the subject would be incapacitated for the duration of the poisoning.
However, if you can re-activate the cholinesterase directly, then the level of side effects from the poison go way down.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
But, how much do we know of whether China, Japan, Russia, and even the USA (at Aberdeen Proving Grounds/Georgia/name some not-really-heard-much-about-place in USA) DID test on live persons, maybe prisoners granted early release for participation?
If the FDA IS approving of them then viable results must have happened. As to whether "early release" is true, it could mean early release from "corporeal day-to-day existence". Can't have parolees blabbing that they got out early for accepting horrid injections with antidotes working just fine in minutes. That could reinvigorate then-USSR efforts to make even more irreversible chemical agents.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Yep, I remember that I too had to go thru the two-arms injection/cattle door, too. Simultaneous injections in each arm, almost like a hypo spray in Star Trek, IIRC...
Most of us got sick for a few days, up to a week or more for some. Cold-like symptoms, tho some felt like it was the flu. We were told it was to keep us all from becoming sick from one another as with 70-90 ppl in a given barracks all sorts of bugs/illnesses converge to further weaken those weak or sick upon arrival to boot camp.
Thing is, we never knew what REALLY was in those injections. But, I still have my hair, my balls and nothing seems mutated. Any lapses in memory might be from my own nutritional habits, or from messing around with paint chips on the walls as a kid. But, there COULD be some latent effects from my exposure to JP-5 we used for cleaning the UNREP span wires various equipment aboard ship. Imagine what Jet Engine technicians were/are exposed to. All those compounds into the skin, inhaled, absorbed into they eyes/mucous membranes...
yeesh...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Sigh.
The phrase isn't misused. In the absence of the rhetorical term called "begging the question," the words in the phrase "begs the question" are, in fact, equivalent to "raises [or asks for] the question."
It really has dual meaning: the meaning of the words themselves and the historical usage of the phrase in rhetorical circles.
Consider also, the phrase, "You're a dick." It could mean that the speaker is implying you're a member of the fraternity of people named, "Richard." It could also be a slang figure of speech calling you out as a pedantic jackass who wants to pretend s/he's superior to people by declaring one common use of a phrase as inferior to another common use of that phrase.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
I, for one, welcome our new nutless monkey overlords.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
-- Remember, we're not happy until you're not happy. -- Local FAA Inspector --
Why is this marked as flamebait? The US government has demonstrated that there really are no lines it's unwilling to cross.
Why would nerve-gas antidote testing be that much worse than the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, for instance?
Those jet injectors did suck. But at least it was only in boot camp that I had to deal with that.
Dunno 'bout the JP-5... It's also a mild laxative if it gets into the potable water supply because some grape nut somehow found a fitting adapter he shouldn't have had, didn't notice the blue pipe, and fate had the valve lineup just right. (Nothing that fast-cycling the reserve tanks and flushing with a bit extra calcium hypochlorite couldn't fix in a few days...) I'm still living, so it couldn't have been that bad...
But it's stuff like the dry cleaning solvents, PD-680 and some tetracloride something or other for removing oil & grease from things that bugged me. Didn't have too much of a smell, fumes could still get you a little woozy, and it could dry out the hands and make them itch a lot if gloves weren't handy (or more often the case too clumsy and ill-fitting to be practical under some senior chief's "get 'er done" timeframe.)
If they really did have such deadly weapons of mass destruction, why haven't they tried using them to kill lots of us who are their enemies? It's not as if they are afraid of dying or afraid of the IDF (remember all those homicide bombers before the security barrier went up?).
They are also not short of crazy people who would use them against us. So why no attacks?
They've got lots of missiles they keep sending into our country. So why haven't they put any deadly chems inside their missiles?
Obviously they don't have any such weapons. It's just the usual scare politics to frighten us to spend more of our taxes on defence industry which pays money to our corupt politicians to expand defence industry.
Ever read Irgun's charter? The highlight was the part where they said, "Political violence and terrorism" were "legitimate tools in the Jewish national struggle for the Land of Israel". Kind of radical, considering they were the second largest militia in the 48 war, and that their ministers served in high-ranking posts in Israeli government.
Seriously, every independence movement used terrorism, including ours. Get over yourself and get off your moral high ground. Keep in mind, Israel has killed far more innocent civilians than the Palestinians have. You might say "it's only because of the terrorists", or you can even say "they use human shields"(And by the way, my first cousin is in the Sayeret Egoz of the IDF, and he assures me that they use human shields too). Nevertheless, the fact remains: More people that are innocent have died because of Israel's actions than the Palestinians'. Yes, the intentions were different, but that is of little concern to the innocent man who was killed.
I'm not condemning Israel. I am just pointing out that your moral language is useless and inconsistent in this argument, and that Israel has no moral authority in this conflict.
"Furthermore, Hamas swayed Palestinian public opinion by promising social programs. All I've seen this government do in the last year is fight a civil war inside Gaza. How is increasing violence between Gaza refugees helping the Palestinians in that region?"
Don't you think that had anything to do with Israel's complete embargo into the country after their victory? The West Bank's GDP decreased by over 40% over the course of two months after Israel shut down all trade and aid. There was absolutely no money for new social programs, and a great deal of them had to be shut down.
"As far as refugees, also consider that nearly 700k - 900k Jewish residents in Arab states were expelled out of Israel's surrounding neighbors. Compare this with the 750k displaced Moslem Arabs from the State of Israel."
Two rights do not make a wrong. My parents were some of those Jews who were displaced(Morocco), but they had nothing to do with the forced expulsion of the Palestinians from their homes.
By the way, most of those countries, Morocco included, have granted an unlimited right of return to the Sephardi Jews. Is Israel prepared to do such a thing?
That is not true, at all. Look up Operation Dani, where the Arab cities of Ramle and Lydda were emptied. Let me quote Yitzhak Rabin, a former prime minister of Israel.
""What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities ... Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. ... Allon repeated the question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! ... 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring ... Psychologically, this was one of the most difficult actions we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 miles to the point where they met up with the legion. (Soldier of Peace, p. 140-141)"
New documents from Israel's state archives indicate that most of the Arabs were expelled from Israel, they did not run away. In fact, Israeli SHAI military intelligence documents from the time indicate that the words and actions of the "Arab brothers" were only responsible for 5% of the total exodus.
Please reread your history.
Could I have a source?
How many times has it been conquered in the last 500 years? And how many times in the period from 1500-1900?
point taken, but still you'd think that their "Arab Brothers" and fellow Muslims could have found better accommodations after all these years for them
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds