Slashdot Mirror
British Village Requests Removal From GPS Maps
longacre writes "The tiny village of Barrow Gurney, England, has asked GPS map publisher Tele Atlas to remove them from the company's maps. The reason: truck drivers using GPS navigation devices are being directed to drive through the town despite the roads being too narrow for sidewalks, which has led to numerous accidents. At the root of the problem lies the fact that the navigation maps used by trucks are the same as those used by passenger cars, and they don't contain data on road width or no-truck zones. Tele Atlas says they will release truck-appropriate databases at some point, but until then they advise local governments to make use of a technology dating back to the Romans: road signs."
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These aren't the roads you're looking for.
"Time is nothing; timing is everything."
Cut him some slack, he probably just had some Decepticon ass to kick.
Sounds like a great opportunity for the law enforcement officers of Barrow Gurney to make some money issuing fines.
They will take notice of a sign that says "Maximum clearance" though. :)
I like muppets.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=436983
I would expect idiots to ignore them, because the computer voice must be obeyed.
I could see truckers ignoring them, especially if a GPS or map is advising them to take a different route. At least some of them are going to assume that the sign is wrong. Adding that feature to the software should be a priority.
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell"
Aldous Huxley
Big, giant speed bumps. Doesn't generate much revenue, but it will send a very effective message.
What?
Put up road signs. Next, enforce the laws with lengthy traffic stops for trucks and strict fines. If one causes an accident anyway, feel free to throw them in jail pending local laws and the installation of signs detailing the laws.
...for local people.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
...basically, by misdirecting trucks via GPS, the machines now have a way to kill us.
If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
I think in jolly ole England those Maximum Clearance" sign are marked "Max. Headroom". How many times have truck drivers, in England they are called lorry drivers, ignore all of those signs. Here are some image of what happens if someone ignores those signs: http://www.dhsdiecast.com/content/gallery/index.cfm?gallery_photo_id=3770 http://www.dhsdiecast.com/content/gallery/index.cfm?gallery_photo_id=228 There are many others you can search the internet for. I know there are many other villages in Europe that are in the similar condition in which the roads are too narrow for anything except a Morris Mini or smaller.
they will need to find another solution. such as a no trucks sign and a cop with a bad attitude to hand out the tickets.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
1. Post sign at entrance to turn off that says "trucks over X lbs subject to 500 fine"
2. Station police officer 100 yards past sign.
3. Profit!
The cake is a pie
Barrow Gurney, instead of trying to do away with this new source of traffic, adapt! Enjoy the opportunity of having all these truck divers going through your locality to develop your economy and move on to the next level!
Everyone knows a truck driver craves fornication with women. Have whores! Put some money into turning an old farm in dereliction into a brothel and import truckloads of east European prostitutes! Then build your economy around this, build hotels, fast-food restaurants, gynaecology clinics, and soon enough you'll be the city every European truck driver wants to stop in!
You just got troll'd!
The request is totally unreasonable, information is not easily contained. A lot of roads are designated for non-truck use, if trucks don't obey signs, ticket the trucks, drivers, and companies they belong to. There's no need to create new laws and rules for such a simple thing.
This being slashdot, I'm expecting lots of people to post either agreeing that a few road signs are all that's needed, or some sort of opposite position, like hide the signs behind bushes and then ticket the hell out of the truckers.
The real problem is, for every trucker that actually is clueless and 'innocently' relies totally on the GPS info, there's another one who has heard the road is too narrow and difficult for trucks, but will try it anyway, and then claim he never heard any other driver say differently. The ones that will lie like hell about having foreknowledge are also the ones who will claim they made the decision to go that way based only on GPS info, and they assumed the GPS wouldn't mislead them. They may well claim that their dispatcher didn't say anything either, to shield their firm from potential liability, and try to make it look like the gadjet is the real source of the whole problem.
Now what happens if the truck didn't just clip a historic building or two (Which are pence a dozen in the UK), but, e.g., ran over a kid?
This is really about the difference in UK and US law. In the US, there are plenty of precedents that let the child's parents sue the trucker's firm, the GPS maker, or whomever has the deepest pockets. In the UK, there's much less ability to extend liability to someone only peripherally involved. A tangled mess of a case, with lots of arguments about just who is responsible for what percentage of total damages, tends to result in much more modest settlements there. One thing both locations share is that all too often average people tend to assume a computer based system doesn't make mistakes.
This means the town may be playing it smart - take away the GPS info, and the driver has to justify his decision based on paper maps, talking with the corporate dispatcher, or some other source of info, and if that's not a computer, the driver can't weasel out of much by claiming he assumed the source of info was infallible.
Who is John Cabal?
Trucks have gotten really bad up here in around Vancouver, Canada. Especially late at night. They pay no attention to street lights, they simply blow their horn and if your lucky you get out of the way. My father wasn't so lucky a few years back. The driver didn't even deny that he ran the red, just said he didn't see my dad. Actually my father was lucky as he wasn't seriously hurt, although that was the end of that van. Everyone I know has a story about how "they almost got killed by a big truck".
Seriously, who are you? Wikipedia?
Its fairly near to me and I agree with the residents...
It is a death trap and its not just lorries, its tourists who are getting from the west country to bristol. Its a great shortcut between two major roads, but it was not designed for the amount of traffic that gps sends through. They have seen MAJOR increases in traffic since gps became popular.
The roads are built like they are for horse and cart. They wind up and down and they are very narrow with no pavement, people do die there.
Big trucks have some horrendous blind spots, even with all the mirrors. We're (past tense now) taught to clear the lane first. But, in city traffic, things like that and following distance go out the window because everyone is in a contest to see who can be the biggest asshole. And, there is always things like road hypnosis and plain old not paying attention.
Sometimes the "No Trucks" signs get ignored because the delivery location only accessable from that route. But, yeah, I've seen plenty of drivers ignore "No Trucks" signs either because they can't turn around, don't know the road, or are just impatient. I obeyed the signs except in the first condition. The most memerable one I encountered was when a driver hauling doubles wiped out a bunch of utility lines and poles trying to drive down a little country road.
But, keep in mind, just like there are bad drivers in cars, their are bad drivers in trucks. Most know how to handle themselves, even if they sometimes have to get a little pushy, but not all.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
This article's timing is very interesting given all the talk about 'superlorries' in the uk press this week. The 'superlorry' is a 60-tonne vehicles, that will fit 60% more goods than the current big trucks in the UK. The government is considering allowing them in the UK, and according to BBC this morning they are currently on test at some small airport. The haulage companies say if approved they will only operate on motorways, but groups are already concerted about these trucks going through small towns, much like this story. Here is an article from the Times: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2943573.ece
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
Additional signs aren't required - driving inappropriately close to other vehicles or pedestrians, which these truck drivers must be doing, is driving without due care and attention and comes with 3-9 penalty points so a truck driver who cops a couple of these is going to find himself cleaning trucks rather than driving them. Claiming there were no signs warning of narrow roads is likely to solicit a response of "are you registered blind" from any judge and the response to "satnav made me do it" doesn't bear thinking about. Thinking you can leg it off back to the other side of the channel isn't always going to work now as there are reciprocal arrangements with some countries.
Local councils have very close ties with the local constabulary so it's easy for them to request a clampdown.
Make a bypass! Problem solved!
What? There's a house in the way? You say it's owned by Arthur Dent?
I'll get the byzantine paper trail started, go tell Prosser to fire up the bulldozer.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
To me, it sounds like a rare instance of authorities caring more about safety than money. Unfortunately, your attitude seems to be more common - to the point that some communities (*cough*Union City, CA*cough) have been caught deliberately and illegally causing unsafe situations in order to increase revenue from traffic violations.
Have you ever *been* in Britain? There's places where the roads are narrow because the centuries-old buildings were put in when the road had to be wide enough to accomodate cows. If they say the roads are too narrow for sidewalks, I'd assume there's literally no escape on the sides.
Actually I am a lab rat in an elaborate plot to take over the world.
Why arent' the roads big enough for sidewalks?
Because there might be houses or lots of private property in the way?
There's lots of old towns with roads so narrow that just a single car can pass; horses weren't that fat when those were built.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=+Barrow+Gurney&hl=en&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=13&om=1
Don't taze me, good buddy! 10-4
Good. Cheap. Fast. Pick Two.
Just put up a sign saying "Toll Road for Trucks: XX $" and watch how truckers do a quick reverse and disappear forever.
How the heck you you expect the police to fill their tase quota without picking off a trucker or two? Sheesh people these days.
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I say." - Marshall McLuhan
Here's what else can happen if you ignore those signs:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/djpaultimberman/maxHeadroom2.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWdgAMYjYSs
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
It doesn't matter if you design the thing to block and be hit by a truck reasonably safely and not serve any other function.
At the entry roads to the village put up barriers that will block vehicles above a certain height. Most trucks are taller than normal vehicles that would fit.
Or set up a chicane designed to block vehicles which won't make it through the village.
Then put up a big traffic sign with red circle and a red slash across it with a symbol of a truck inside the circle - "No trucks". This is so you can justify the fines etc to drivers that ignore it and hit the barriers/chicane.
It's better to have the trucks stuck outside the village than inside the village - damage to stuff that's designed to take the damage, easier to clean up the mess, doesn't affect village as much, etc.
If you're lucky you might be able to place the barriers where it's much easier to tow the trucks away.
Don't be silly. We shoot and bludgeon our truckers here.
Don't be such a pansy.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It isn't capitalised. An articulated lorry is exactly the same thing you would call a semi-trailer rig. A big-arsed steel thing with a stopping time of a fortnight and 18 wheels which really doesn't care whether you call it a truck or a lorry when some bastard pushes you in front of it. Funny thing is, most drivers call the tractor a truck when it's without its trailer. The mad sods even race the things. (WARNING: Flash video embedded right there in the front page)
Resistance is futile. Reactance buggers it up.
Glad your father came out of the ordeal alright. I've met a few Canadian truckers. They tend to be rather unpleasant (unlike most of the other Canadians I've known over the years).
Some of the interstates (and a lot of cities, for that matter) here in the US aren't any better. I have far too many stories of almost being run off the road by long haul truckers that either aren't paying any attention to the road or are literally falling asleep at the wheel. It's crazy.
Then there was the night that I almost got run off the bridge over the Mississippi river while driving into St Louis by a crazy guy driving a FedEx truck. Must have been a *really* urgent package delivery.
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Hmm, not always... reminds me of a story. A truck driver underestimated the height of his trailer and promptly got stuck under a bridge. As a huge traffic jam swelled up behind, the truck driver and sheriff walked around the truck, rubbing their chins. The driver tried reversing, but got only tyre spin and fould smelling smoke. It was really stuck.
A motorist walked up and introduced himself as; "John Cooper, I helped design this bridge, maybe I can help".
Much walking around, chin rubbing and head scratching ensued, amidst the spiraling honking and abuse.
"I think we're going to have to bring in hydraulic lifts and raise the bridge slightly" Said John Cooper.
"Ungh, my boss ain't gonna like that" Said the truck driver.
Just then, a kid, riding by on his bike stopped, dismounted, took of his cap (this was before compulsory bicycle helmets), looked up and down and said...
"Why don't you let some air out of the tyres?"
I heard that as a Bill Engvall routine.
Cop pulls up and asks "Ya get yer truck stuck?"
Trucker: "Nosir, I was delivering this overpass and I ran outta gas!"
if the answer isn't violence, neither is your silence / freedom of expression doesn't make it alright
Etak before they were bought by Teleatlas. There was a number of ways to downgrade a road so that the route choices avoided it. There were cases when our company sent mappers into urban areas where they felt there lives were in danger and we never really did anything about it. Problem was (in my opinion of course) that we had icons to establish an area was rich and didn't want random traffic but no icon to say the area was dangerous (from a mapping point of view the same icon would would have worked) and we were afraid of the appearance of racism or classism or whatever.
I know! The British truck drivers are the worst! They are all driving on the wrong side of the road! /ducks
actually, bludgeoning the the British set piece, our pigs don't have guns or tasers, but we do give them extremely vicious steel truncheons instead of the wooden and plastic ones everyone else uses.
What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
Union City is nothing new. In High School physics we had a project to time yellow lights in town along with speed limit and distance of the intersection, compared to deceleration (braking) of the average car.
I would say about half of the lights the class examined had a "no win zone" where it was impossible to either make it through the intersection (w/o speeding) or brake in time if the light turned yellow. This was in 1994.
I'm not sure if it's greed on the part of governments or just simple incompetence. Probably a bit of both.
Vote Libertarian
...or they could just fix the map data. Have you ever asked a software vendor to add a feature or fix a minor bug?Except of course that it isn't. A more accurate, if less mnemonic mnemonic, would be "A pint is a pound in the US and exactly nowhere else."
Outside of the states, we know that "A pint of pure water weighs a pound and a quarter." Because, you know, a proper pint is 20 fl oz. Not sure why you Americans have such funny little pints.
What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht
I was thinking more of fire engines and buses. When they fitted chicanes to some of the streets in Aberdeen, they lasted about a month before complaints from residents, the bus company, and the fire brigade got them removed.
A set of tyres is relatively cheap, compared to the problem of extracting a wedged truck. I have actually seen this done, incidentally.
Tele Atlas have a complete monopoly on GPS maps, why the $£%@ cant they be FORCED to put height and weight limits on their maps by the government, on pain of having their rights to sell removed.
Its not only me, I know a load of drivers who have e-mailed tomtom and the like over the last 7 years, asking for the ability to enter the fact that I am in a vehicle 40ft long and 16 foot high and 8 foot six wide on the screen and not be sent down 7 foot wide roads with 9 foot six high bridges.
We dont do it for fun. You try reversing it when you come to the restriction.
As for the arseholes who suggest fines:
(a) For most drivers the company pays, and a lot of the rest are based in east Europe, and would not pay anyway.
(b) No driver would go there if he knew how to avoid the problem. Its not about saving money or time, its about lack of info on the alternatives - how do we know the other road is better if its not shown as better?
Teleatlas could fix the problem but won't. regulation is needed.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
There's already a solution to the fire engine problem.
In theory, every £1 collected through fines = 1 less £ collected through taxes. There's absolutely nothing wrong with making rulebreakers pay the costs associated with their offenses (total damage cost + reasonable enforcement cost + reasonable deterrent cost), as opposed to the general taxpayers.
The problem is that this never happens. Whenever there is a budget surplus, it is never, ever, ever, translated to reduced taxes. Instead, the money is immediately started to get channeled through cover programs (Personal Development programs, Outreach programs, Social Networking programs), until it is sufficiently laundered, and inevitably ends up in the pockets of those politicians for their booze & party expenses which then they write off, as grandparent noted. Then, politicians claim the credit for "improved social standing" at their next election, all while the taxpayer still has to pay every single penny of the real expenses, and cheer for the politician while laying the blame squarely on the rank-and-file cops when wondering why they aren't doing their jobs well in any capacity except those of taking their money.
Indeed.
My commute home takes me over a bridge which is 1.8 metres wide. Last night the traffic was queueing back half a mile from the bridge. I cycled past the queue to find a bunch of polis trying to deal with a truck and trailer that were too wide for the bridge and too big to turn in the road.
I thought as I watched them, 'ah, another victory for Tom Tom!'
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
One solution could be to petition the government to upgrade the highway through town or build a ring road.
Another, considerably less friendly option, is to install one helluva hairpin turn in the main road. Easy enough for a passenger vehicle to navigate at playground speed, but impossible for a transport truck.
Maybe the ideal solution is to install a toll booth system. If a vehicle exceeds a certain weight (or physical dimension), they'll need to pay at the initial toll booth. Then, install a series of toll booths along the route with a police radar of some fashion. If the vehicle exceeds the posted speed limit, they need to pay another toll in order to proceed to the next segment.
In short order, one of two things will happen. The traffic will find an alternate route around the town, or the town will have earned enough money to build their own ring road.
The reason you don't understand the problem is that you have no history, and you have too much space.
My house was old when the United States Constitution was first drafted. Am I going to tear it down to make way for trucks? No. My village also doesn't have physical space for a ring road, without some major engineering - a bloody great bridge over the sea on one side, a tunnel or a massive cutting through the hills on the other. The solution isn't demolishing half the villages of Europe to make way for trucks, it's to ban the trucks from places they can't go. And, ideally, ban trucks of this size all together.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
> One solution could be to petition the government to upgrade the highway through town or build a ring road.
You've obviously never been to an English village before. You cannot 'upgrade the highway' in a village which has grade 2 listed buildings which are 9 feet apart. These buildings were built 200-300 years before the invention of the car. They are important historical buildings and are hardly going to be demolished just to put in a bigger road.
The put up physical barriers. At first I was rather confused when I saw these pillars and other barriers on different roads. And when I asked various people who live there, they often didn't know. But I guess it only takes one person to know to stop asking as I eventually got the answer. Roads that are too narrow in places for vehicles of larger sizes (those little 2/3s cars were usually okay everywhere) would likely cause problems if they were permitted.
No one reads road signs... well some people do, but the risk and frequency of that happening is too high.
The barrier method is both obvious and effective. The only reason it never occurred to me naturally is that we don't have those here in the US. The nearest thing similar in effect in my area are those pipe-grated things that are often found along country roads. Don't know what they are called, but they are used to keep live stock from walking out into the street. We also have various barrier devices similar to those of the Japanese, but they are used to protect buildings or obvious devices and structures, not block access to roads or weak bridges.
While I am the first to admit trucks do some stupid shit you four wheelers need to understand a few things.... 1.) It takes us a long damn time to get moving and almost as long to get stopped. 2.) Most of us get paid by the mile so unless we are moving we ain't making no money. 3.) 2/3rd's the length of our truck is a blind spot where WE CAN'T SEE YOU... With that said let me explain a few things. 1.) Late at night traffic lights are on a faster cycle than in the daytime. By the time we notice a light is yellow we usually do not have time to stop (safely) before it turns red. This is due to the 80,000 lb weight of our loaded trucks and we just can't stop that damn fast....period. If you four-wheelers would pay attention and watch to see if we are stopping before you pull out there wouldn't be a problem here....but if the light turns green, that means "go" and the hell with what might be happening around you. 2.) You four wheelers get in front of us, with no concept of how hard it is for us to slow down, and you just putt along, refusing to get out of the f'ing way. Then when we try to pass you stay right beside us (usually in the blind spot) and won't move, even if we have a turn signal on....well there comes a time when we just have to move on over. Our livelihood depends on rolling as many miles as possible in the 11 hours the DOT says we can drive and we need to be able to roll, not poke along behind some four wheeler with nothing better to do than PISS US OFF. 3.) There are signs on most trucks now that state "if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you". Well they should be changed to "if you can't see me in my mirrors, I can't see you". Just because you can see my mirrors doesn't mean I can see you. No matter how many mirrors you put on a 70' semi there is always a blind spot and you four wheelers will find it and ride in it all damn day long. Then call us un-professional when we don't see your dumb asses.
There once was a time when most trucks had TWO people in the cabin, the driver and the "bijrijder" (no idea what the english word his, but his job is to lend a hand). There also used to be "relaxed" schedules. Upon arrival the trucker would be directed to the kantine and be given real coffee and perhaps something to eat while his truck was loaded/unloaded.
Nowadays even trucks with frequent stops and for innercity work do NOT have a "bijrijder", an extra set of eyes, a person who can go out of the cabin and direct traffic, a person who keeps the driver awake and alert. The schedules are intense while the number of delays has only increased. Unless the loading/unloading is at a wharehouse the trucker now often has to help with the loading/unloading.
This all makes for drivers who are tired, overworked and in constant fear of their jobs being taken by whatever is the next low wage country where none of the rules apply.
All in pursuit of the almighty buck. Notice how especially trucks from companies like DHL and other delivery firms that are always pushing the limits drive incredibly unsafely. I know how the routine goes, deliver 100 packages and next day they give you 110. Deliver them, and you get 120. Traffic jam? Just work overtime, that is increasinly hard to get overtime PAY for. The odd thing is that if you look at maintenance records this practive is very bad as the trucks are pushed way too hard and this actually costs a lot of money. Plus the invevitable accidents really start to affect business.
But hey, the package has to be delivered NOW and for as little money as possible.
That is the reason many truckers are a danger on the road.
It is the same reason tech support (who are on orders to handle as many calls as possible) often just says "reboot/reinstall" and tries to hangup.
Want good service/behaviour? Stop squeezing the margins, introduce strict laws and make sure people ain't forced to push the limits just to make a living, because they won't always get it right and a rude tech support guy is bad enough but an asleep driver of a truck is another thing altogether.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Just to clarify things a little...
I've lived most of my life in the village next door to Barrow Gurney. It's barely a village, approximately 400 people... As for law enforcement, it's the local Women's Institute, frowning upon any anti-social behaviour and gossiping people to death.
I used to visit the abbattoir there regularly for fresh meat (braaaiinnns....) but since it shut down, there's no longer and point to visit. Should it disappear off the map, I'm not sure anyone else would mind (apparently including those who live there).
In regard to the actual situation in hand, I can confirm that it's a great shortcut for getting round the area "off-piste". The road section in the main part of Barrow Gurney is very, very wide and would fit several lorries in no problem. The only difficulty is that the rest of the village and all access to it is via narrow lanes (for you Americans read: tarmac'd footpaths) and can get a little hairy even in a car.
I was hoping for one of those horsedrawn ones, with those up-and-down pump handles and lots of brass. It would fit the 'Olde English Village' image too.
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
Problem with this is that it's primarily a farming community so tractors are always pottering around.
Something else I neglected to mention. I work for the Safety, Standard and Research section of the Highways Agency. Responsible for technology projects with regard to the major road network in England; part of the Department for Transport.
A project has been looked at and is undergoing further discussion (into whether it's DfT's, SatNav companies' or Haulage companies' responsibility) on a separate SatNav system specifically for haulage. I.e. a system that only uses roads with sufficient capacity for lorries. Should this come about it would solve this issue and many of other villages' issues.
"Why don't you let some air out of the tyres?"
This kid did not realize it was the top of the truck that was stuck, not the bottom!For minor offenses for which they don't arrest on the spot, there's no powers of extradition so the summons is quite useless. They'll have to wait until they're caught again in the country, so in nearly all cases the paperwork is far too much so they just ignore it.
They are planning to change the system to the continental deposit method, but only for foreign nationals.
And don't get me started on dog owners who use those ten-foot leashes and assume their mutts understand traffic
Actually, that would be a safe assumption to make. The mutts who don't understand traffic are not on leashes anymore...
I found a copy of the original correspondence between the village and the TeleAtlas:
Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
Just put up a sign saying "Toll Road for Trucks: XX $" and watch how truckers do a quick reverse and disappear forever.
Such a sign would be especially effective at discouraging British truck drivers who don't routinely keep American currency on hand.
Hell, they don't even look before they change lanes. I had one force me over a lane just the other day. They're crazy if they think truckers will just turn around and go another way if the road says "no trucks".
If you don't respect the trucks blind spots, then don't be surprised. Their blind spots are huge and because of this I give them wide berth or make sure I pass them quickly.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I live on a street that as a clearly posted sign that says trucks may not drive down it after 10PM. However, it's the primary city street connecting central Cambridge, MA (USA) to downtown Somerville, MA. These two cities have a lot of trucking between them, and many truckers simply ignore the signs, knowing that police don't patrol the street.
I'd really like it if GPS maps were more up-to-date with this info so that they could select the right path for a truck, but frankly until they do, it's the truckers' fault (they should not simply rely on the GPS to think for them).
Hell, we just had a semi hit an overpass on I-25. If they can't navigate US Interstates safely, how the hell will they handle rural roads?
I drank what? -- Socrates
This isn't Amsterdam... # is illegal in the UK.