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Space Shifting DVDs to Cost Extra?
Depending on who you listen to Steve Jobs has supposedly been pitching the idea of selling "premium" DVDs that would include an extra fee for the privilege of transferring your legally-purchased DVD to a different device. "The courts have held that "space-shifting" your CDs to a portable music device is a fair use. So you can legally import your CD collection to your iPod, or any other device, without paying a penny. But Steve Jobs apparently wants to charge you $4 for the privilege of doing the same with your DVDs."
Are you trying to tell me that Steve Jobs wants to make money off of consumers?
Is this Steve Jobs wanting to charge you or the MPAA? I suspect the latter.
Luckily iTunes is not the only tool in town.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I tell you, I *might* be persuaded to pay that price if it was some sort of continuous license w/unlimited downloads. For example, if I could take a DVD from my current collection, get it so if I lose the file I can always re-download from Apple, and if they release an HD version I get it for free, then that might be worth $4. Otherwise, screw you, I'll rip the DVD myself.
While it may still be fair use to copy your DVD to another storage device, the trouble is the disk is normally encrypted. So if you live somewhere covered by the DMCA you may be entitled to move your movie to another format, but only if you have permission to circumvent the encryption for that purpose, hence Jobs can make $$$ selling you what is already yours.
I guess if you don't like it, you shouldn't blame Jobs who's trying to exploit a commercial opportunity, but rather contact your lawmaker and explain in layman's terms why this is messed up.
This might explain why there is a "Deauthorize Media" option in the Features menu of Leopard's DVD Player.
Seriously, aren't they just giving that thing away now? I guess Apple's push into the entertainment center hasn't been as strong as he'd hoped, so now it's time to poison the well by making the plastic disc industry suffer.
They really need to make up their mind. Either they're selling us a license to their content (in which case the media should be irrelevant) OR they should be charging us for a physical product, in which case we can do whatever we want with that product including turning it into something we can use in ways they didn't expect.
If I buy some boards and a nails from Home Depot, they don't get a piece of the action if I try to sell the cabinet I made.
I'm all for it, if they change the rules a bit:
Charge me the extra $3-4 and leave off ALL DRM. That includes that macrovision crap and all of it. Don't require special software or hardware. Just don't put the DRM in place.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
I really doubt that Jobs gives a crap about which way you view content, as long as Apple made the device your viewing it on. It's more likely a carrot to the studios to get them to let you watch normally purchased dvds on your *pod / *mac. I imagine that if it were up to him, and the rest of us, there wouldn't be any premium.
... I need to buy Slysoft's ripping software: http://www.slysoft.com/. Y'all can take your premium DVDs and shove it. I'd rather pay someone more for tools to protect my property than pay less in extortion money.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Who wants to tell them we've been doing this for years already?
MythDVD
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Jobs usually gets things right, but if this report is true Jobs is pursuing a nonstarter. He wants to make it easier for people to put their DVD collections in iTunes, but there are so many problems with this proposed solution it's doomed to failure. 1) Anyone who wants to time-shift their DVD collection already does it, albeit to the chagrin of the MPAA; 2) The MPAA would never go for any format that is devoid of some copy protection; 3) The MPAA doesn't want to strengthen Apple any more than it currently is; 4) This compromise would only really mean something if it were applied to HD-DVD and Blu-ray, which we know will never happen.
Part of the hardcore faithful who believed in Apple long before it was cool again to do so
Or you could pay someone to figure it all for you (Buy purchasing commercial software that has a nice GUI)
Or you could watch DvDs on your TV and not your iPod.
Which of these things is worth less than the $4 it takes to Steve Jobs every time? For most people I'm thinking option 3 will be the only one. A smaller group might opt for the commercial software that does the same thing. Very few people will make the effort to get it all set up with open source tools or to wait the length of time it takes to reencode all the mpeg files. I think that most people (who don't read slashdot) will be happy to pay Steve Jobs the $4. I think Steve knows that, too.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I know this might be a radical departure for Slashdot editors, but have you ever considered only linking to articles that have, I don't know, actual facts? Instead of rumor and innuendo to drive Apple bashing for Page Hits.
Also, did you hear that rumor about ScuttleMonkey? Supposedly he likes to have sex with washing machines. Apparently it's something he does quite a lot...
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
If I buy a CD, in my view as a customer, I'm buying that disc and therefore I can use its contents any way I choose which does not infringe upon the publisher's copyright. I don't see an EULA stuck on the front of the case, so I'm clearly not being licenced the non-exclusive transferrable right to listen to the disk in up to three (3) CD players or whatever. When I buy a DVD, I expect that I should be able to stick the contents on a portable video player that doesn't have a DVD drive. I don't want to pay again for the ability to play the same damn thing on a different device, be it through iTunes or as a premium on the disc. However all the usage restrictions (which pirates so effortlessly bypass) mean I have to go and download the show off bittorrent to do that. The result? I've just uploaded copies of the video to people who are just pirating the film. So all that's been achieved is that they've caused a legitimate customer to become a small-scale pirate. Sorry, this is a bit of a rant. I appear to have a head cold.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
Those black turtlenecks aren't free, you know!
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Apple is (apparently) offering to help. They would expect payment - natch. I still have about a hundred LPs. I have the right to record them on my Mac and turn them into AAC files. It's just an awful lot of work. If Apple sold the AAC files to me for $3 to $4 per LP, I would buy them immediately even though I legally don't need these files. (I spent 14.99 yesterday for a 320KBit MP3 download of two LPs that I own from the new Deutsche Grammophon shop).
Now with DVDs and Handbrake it is slightly different; i wouldn't pay $3 to $4 to save me the work of turning a DVD into h.264 format, but some people would. I would probably willingly pay some lesser amount. What people need to realize is that even though it is your right, it is still work.
It's more like a racket - they're suggesting they'll stop making it harder for you if you pay extra.
Lord, oh Lord, the Apple apologists are out in force. Surely Jesus Jobs would never do anything that would lower his saintly profile to less than those of Mother Teresa and Ghandi!
Get real folks. If Apple pulls another $4 out of your pocket of course they're taking a cut. What are we? School children?
And Poor Saint Jobs, forced by the big bad media companies into doing this? C'mon! Jobs sat down with them and together they cut a deal that will hopefully see both of them make bigger profits. It's highly unlikely that Jobs is giving away the farm with no benefit to Apple shareholders. To suggest otherwise is incredibly naïve.
Three Squirrels
But only if they change that retarded name - "Space-shifting"? Back in the day, we used to call it "moving files".
Apple makes some wonderful products, but people forget the company has a string of failures alongside its string of successes. Not that there's anything wrong with this, you have to fail to succeed, even if you're Steve Jobs, but iTunes video is best understood in the context of failure, IMHO.
There's just very little reason to buy video from Apple at this time. DVD players are overwhelmingly cheap, and DVDs are cheap and easy to buy OR RENT. Netflix, Blockbuster, Wal Mart, Target etc etc are all too happy to put DVDs in your hands. They are making loads of money on them, as are the studios, the only people not cashing in are the writers (see: WGA strike).
The primitive state of broadband means downloads are not pressuring the industry, there is piracy but it's just not like it was for music in the Napster days. At that time you could literally get virtually any song on your hard drive within a few minutes. For video, you need to figure out BitTorrent, then wait wait wait for the download. Or you need to set up iTunes and then wait wait wait for the download.
THEN you have to get your TV hooked up to your computer, and then tolerate visibly worse quality. This was not the case with MP3s, they sounded just as good as CDs to most people, despite the specs, and people already had headphones to plug in to their computers, or a miniplug to hook up to the stereo cost $5 at Radio Shack.
Amid this backdrop, Apple is trying to make a market for video downloads. But the effort is futile until broadband speeds get up closer to FTTP (fiber) levels. Even then, the studios probably won't hand Apple a new market to dominate like they did last time. Wired recently quoted one studio head who said he gave in to Jobs on iTunes because Jobs pointed out that Mac's 5 percent market share mitigated the risk -- if the studio's worst nightmares came true, the impact would still be minor. No one is going to be fooled this time around into thinking Jobs just wants to make an innocent little side service for Mac users. You can bet a Google or Netflix is going to get licensing parity (which did not happen with iTunes).
It's worse than that. Customers have the right to space-shift their DVDs. Because of css, many don't have the ability. Not only aren't the producers required to help the customers do that, it is illegal for anyone else to help them. Thanks DMCA.
Isn't the DRM the 'extra feature?' So, since it takes more effort to add the DRM, shouldn't THAT cost more? And then, shouldn't the person who wants the DRM (the content provider) then be the one to pay the bill?
Yes, customers have rights. Exercising them is up to the customer. I don't have to help them/you. If my help is desired, ask nicely. Payment would help.
Apple is (apparently) offering to help. They would expect payment - natch.
Generally I agree with you, although it's slightly more complicated than that because of the DMCA.
To use your 2nd amendment analogy (my thoughts on that subject being an entirely different story, but I'll go with it for the purposes of illustration), it would be like saying you have the right to bear arms, but then saying it's illegal to actually open the box that the weapon comes in because the copyright is owned by the box maker and they don't want you opening it. So then Apple comes in and says they have a legal box-opener that's sanctioned by the box maker, and only they can sell it to you.
That would be pretty ridiculous, right? You can buy the weapon, you can legally use it, but you have to buy the means to open the package separately from some third party? That's what's going on here.
I do agree completely that those offering a service should be compensated for it. I just bought an "MVI" DVD, for example, that includes the band in question's full audio CD, plus pre-ripped mp3's of the entire CD (and yes, real mp3's, on a Warner Music disc), plus 5 bonus tracks, plus about seven videos, plus extra junk like wallpaper, buddy icons, etc. I paid $2 extra over the standard audio CD for all that and I was happy to do it. I probably would have paid $2 extra just for the officially-ripped mp3's by themselves (only because I figure they've gotta have some better quality system to do it with than my LAME... although I'm probably wrong). Point being, it's an extra thing that I don't have to do, and I'm pretty tech savvy - I could do it myself pretty easily - but a lot of people couldn't, they don't even know how to import a CD in iTunes. So for them, they're paying for something that they wouldn't otherwise have at all.
But to pay for the right to do something that you otherwise should have anyway is the problem here.
This wouldn't be an issue or topic if people actually just did space-shifting or only made a copy a couple actual friends. The record companies tolerate that. But people started giving copies out to the whole world, while acting all innocent as claiming they just want to space-shift or archive is why prices have never dropped, why so much music is formula crap, and so on. People like to point to record companies and scream they are greedy, but they are reacting to what the public is doing to them. It's a vicious circle.
I would say all this has led to people wanting quantities of music and not quality music. In past when everyone paid for music you listened hard to who you were going to spend your money on. Record companies had to try their best to put out good music so get your money. Now a days people just want to say "I have 10,000 downloads of stuff". How much of that do you actually listen to versus just occupies space on a hard drive and is all that really stuff worth listening to??? I only bring this up because the war between the downloaders and RIAA has many bad side effects and a boatload of crap music is one of those side effects.
This proposal illustrates clearly one of the main points that opponents of DRM have long made against DRM and that is that DRM allows the creators or owners of the work thus protected to seize extra rights for themselves or even those rights which have classically belonged to the consumer (i.e. fair use). Of course, the reason for doing this is so that the creator or owner can SELL that "privilege" back to the consumer when in fact that "privilege" is a right which belongs to the consumer and cannot be sold back to them because it was theirs in the first place.
Now, it may be the case that through DRM they have made it difficult to exercise my rights without paying them (i.e. I have to break the DRM to enable my rights), but that brings up another problem with DRM and specifically the DMCA. It is unlawful (technically) to break the DRM (aka access protection mechanism) even if I break it for the purpose of re-enabling my rights to time or format shift or for fair use. As the law is currently written it is unlawful to break the DRM no matter what the intent and that is wrong. The DMCA needs to be changed so that safe harbors for breaking the access protection mechanism are created when the consumer is re-enabling RIGHTS that the creator or owner has seized improperly via DRM (aka the access protection mechanism).
The only mentions of Jobs or Apple in the NYT article are: "Disney, of which Steve Jobs is a director and large shareholder, sells movies through the iTunes Store, and the other major studios don't. The issue has been that the studios want to charge more money for downloads than Mr. Jobs thinks they are worth." and "Apple has relented and has agreed to a higher wholesale price for movies."
The following paragraph continues, "More interestingly perhaps, the studios are hoping to create "premium" versions of DVDs that include a copy of the movie that can easily be put on an iPod (and presumably a laptop with iTunes or an Apple TV). Fox has tried this already, with a version of "Die Hard 4 that includes a digital copy. Mr. Greenfield writes that this version costs $3 or $4 more than an ordinary DVD."
This paragraph doesn't refer to Jobs at all, but rather to a DVD that Fox released.
I'm missing the connection between Apple and Fox that Tim Lee's seeing. Can someone explain where this is hiding?
I heard the law says you have the right not to be punched. So if you pay me $4, I won't punch you. If you want me not to punch you again, it's another $4.
Extortion? What's that?
Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
Apple doesn't charge for ringtones, it collect royalties demanded by the RIAA. Apple's success makes it among the most sued companies on the planet. It can't violate RIAA demands and distribute RIAA content on a whim to entertain consumers. What other content companies are giving away ringtones?
Oh right, Verizon and Sprint and AT&T are selling them for $3 or more, and then delete them after a few months and make you pay again!
Apple charges users $1 to convert their purchased tracks into a custom made ringtone that Apple can't delete or expire. You are out of touch with reality. If you want free content, make it yourself, and then copy it onto your phone yourself. Nobody is forcing you to use commercial music and slick consumer products.
Apple's iTunes Ringtones and Complex World of Copyright Law
you need to read the NYTimes article that the Techdirt article is based on. This entire Slashdot article is based on a misrepresentation of an innocuous NYTimes article. Apple isn't the one trying to increase the prices of DVDs or media downloads, it's the studios trying to create more expensive DVD's to make >$15 downloads seem like a deal.
Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
This is probably the only way they can get the content providers to agree: Show them the money carrot. Make it legal for your customers to move movies to different media, and you'll get money. I think it's not so bad; everyone wins: