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Follow-up on EVE's Boot.ini Issue

Posted by Zonk on from the that-bootini-to-you dept.

Krinsath writes "CCP, publishers of Eve Online, have posted a Dev Blog detailing the circumstances leading up to the deletion of XP's boot.ini file, which was earlier discussed on Slashdot. The blog post has intimate details about how the mistake occurred (a new installer from their normal one), how they responded and what CCP has learned from it. While fairly dry, it is to the company's credit that they're being open about one of the more serious bugs to crop up in gaming's recent history."

169 comments

  1. I was affected by this... by kcbanner · · Score: 1, Interesting

    ...luckily I boot useing grub.

    --
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    1. Re:I was affected by this... by kami911 · · Score: 1

      Me too :o)

      --
      Favorite Office suite: http://ooop.sf.net/ Hungarian project: http://hun.sf.net/
    2. Re:I was affected by this... by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Note the comment that this only affected systems where XP/2000 was not on the first partition of the boot drive.

      This really only ever happens on systems that are dual booting, it would be extremely rare for it to happen on a normal Windows box, most of the systems that were negatively affected were probably ones that were dual-booting other OSes from which the problem could be fixed.

      It's just as much Windows' fault as CCP's if indeed Windows recovers fine when it's on the first partition on the hard drive but not otherwise. Every version of Windows I have used has been a whiny bitch when it comes to not being the only OS on a drive.

      For example, XP install discs will give up and bomb if there's another OS other than XP on the first partition in the first place. I had to completely reinstall Linux on my current machine because I didn't install XP first, and XP wouldn't install if Linux was already installed on the machine (at least not if Linux was on the first partition.)

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    3. Re:I was affected by this... by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      "This really only ever happens on systems that are dual booting, it would be extremely rare for it to happen on a normal Windows box..."

      They were "contacted by fewer than 215 users", seems like a lot for something is suppose to be "very rare", especially considering the patch was only live for less than 6 hours:
      "...released on Tranquility at 22:04 GMT on 5 December.... The faulty upgrade had been pulled from Tranquility a few hours after the problem was discovered, at around 03:40 GMT."

      Guess a lot of Eve players dual boot.

      My question is, why the rush? This was a graphics upgrade, made the game look nicer, why the "working very hard for many weeks prior to release, evenings and weekends...not enough time to test the graphics content upgrade thoroughly"? I could maybe understand if this fixed a bug, but they created a patch to make it look prettier and ended up screwing with the OS. Isn't this like trying to fix a paint-chip in a hurry and destroying the wall?

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    4. Re:I was affected by this... by kv9 · · Score: 1

      I could maybe understand if this fixed a bug, but they created a patch to make it look prettier and ended up screwing with the OS. Isn't this like trying to fix a paint-chip in a hurry and destroying the wall? it was a big release not just "prettier look". new engine, new content, etc. please see here for all the details. it just happens that the "prettier look" is packaged separately and only installable if your system supports it. everyone gets the bulk of the update.
      --
      Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
    5. Re:I was affected by this... by Luigi30 · · Score: 1

      215 of 200,000 users is below 1%, not exactly "a lot".

      --
      503 Sig Unavailable

      The Signature could not be accessed. Please try again later or contact the administrator
  2. That's actually a really straightforward response. by Silverlancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Now if only more businesses acted this way.

  3. Re:That's actually a really straightforward respon by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 4, Funny

    But they should delete greater percentages of XP...

  4. How is that even possible by AndrewBuck · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From the article...

    "Why doesn't Windows protect its system startup files? That's a good question, one that I have asked myself in these last few days and wish I knew the answer. But of course I'm not going to blame Microsoft for our mistake. Windows doesn't protect those files and therefore software developers must take care not to touch them. We should have been more careful."

    That is a good question. I am not an EVE player myself so I don't know if this update had to be run with admin privileges but it doesn't appear to be that way from the question and reply. If you are not running as admin then how is it even possible to remove a system file that is necessary to boot the system. Unlike the EVE representative making this statement I am going to blame Microsoft, it should not be the developers responsibility to make sure they don't break the OS, it is the OS developers responsibility to make sure that it cannot be broken without admin/system/root access.

    -Buck

    1. Re:How is that even possible by gQuigs · · Score: 1

      You have to be administrator to modify/delete/etc the boot.ini file. Most home users run windows with full admin, as that is the default, which you can blame on MS if you want.

    2. Re:How is that even possible by fat_mike · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      YES, THIS IS WINDOWS/BILL GATES FAULT!!!!!

      What is up with the whole Linux thing lately here. Anyhow...

      You'd think that they would have caught this during, I don't know, quality control, testing, beta's, simple common sense. This is a prime example of get it out the door or I won't get my bonus. The gaming industry is heading towards the shithole that every other entertainment industry eats from.

      Games have producers. Why the hell does a game need a producer?

      Oh, that's right...most game companies are owned by entertainment companies who saw "Video Game Industry Worth Billions" headlines.

      And what do we get, 800,000,000 first person shooters. Hell, GQ, Esquire have almost as many FPS ads as "insert magazine name here" does. Playboy even does a yearly spread on characters from games.

      The aliens will attack and a whole generation will think "Laser to the leg, fuck that I'll regenerate it and fuck that noob up"

    3. Re:How is that even possible by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Why the hell does a game need a producer?

      Uh, to produce it?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    4. Re:How is that even possible by AndrewBuck · · Score: 1

      I was mistaken in my assumption then. I read the bit about "Windows doesn't protect those files and therefore software developers must take care not to touch them." to mean that they were modifiable with user level access. I do agree though that it is ridiculous for people to run as admin all the time, this serves as a good example of why that is a bad idea.

      -Buck

    5. Re:How is that even possible by Osty · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is a good question. I am not an EVE player myself so I don't know if this update had to be run with admin privileges but it doesn't appear to be that way from the question and reply. If you are not running as admin then how is it even possible to remove a system file that is necessary to boot the system. Unlike the EVE representative making this statement I am going to blame Microsoft, it should not be the developers responsibility to make sure they don't break the OS, it is the OS developers responsibility to make sure that it cannot be broken without admin/system/root access.

      Two things to note:

      1. This was an XP problem. Technically it could've happened on Vista, but I haven't seen anything that said it did. As such, this falls into the same category of problems that Microsoft attempted to fix in Vista with UAC -- nearly everybody ran XP as admin, and many apps expected you to be running as admin.
      2. This was a problem with an installer/uninstaller. Since nearly everything on Windows installs into %programfiles% and that's a shared location, installers need admin access (installers that ask if you want to install for "Just this user" or "Everyone" are not going to install in %userprofile% if you choose "Just this user". They're just looking to see if the Start Menu shortcuts should go into "%appdata%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu" or "%allusersprofile%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu"). Vista will elevate your privleges when you try to run an installer (you'll get a UAC prompt), after which a misbehaving installer could screw up boot.ini. Regardless of operating systems, you almost always install applications as administrator. Yes, you can install apps in $HOME on *nix systems, but 9 times out of 10 you'll use sudo on the installer (sudo apt-get install foo). Therefore this is technically a bug that could happen on any OS. It's not difficult to imagine an application install that deletes your kernel image, for example.
      The real WTF here is that they have an important game file named "boot.ini". That's an exceedingly poor choice of filename. Think of it like having a game file called "autoexec.bat" or "vmlinuz" that actually has nothing to do with the DOS boot process or the Linux kernel. The only defense they give for that is "legacy".
    6. Re:How is that even possible by Perseid · · Score: 1

      That's one of the flaws in XP - chances are you can't get away with not being administrator. Some things won't install. A few things won't even run. Not being Admin will lead to an unpleasant experience.

    7. Re:How is that even possible by Bellum+Aeternus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I did patch EVE as a non-privileged user on my XP Pro system and the problem didn't happen to me. It does seem to be that since most people basically have to run as an administrative account to make XP "work", CCP was able to damage the OS as they did.

      This is a multi-part failure. One part Microsoft for making an OS that almost requires standard users to run a privileged account all the time to make basic applications work. One part CCP for developing software that damaged the underlying OS.

      My only hope is that either Microsoft begins developing software that not only protects users from the outside (they're still yet to do even this) as well as from themselves. They should take a page from Apple's book on how to do this; or Linux adoption picks up and we start seeing more of the applications I (and the bulk of business and home users) need being developed for it.

      --
      - I voted for Nintendo and against Bush
    8. Re:How is that even possible by jythie · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      Having worked on games with and without a producer.... yeah, they earn their paycheck (and this is coming from one of the software engineers)

    9. Re:How is that even possible by Doogie5526 · · Score: 1

      This could indeed happen on any system. I saw a Perl script in Linux just today that said ${directory}/file. The directory variable was empty and it tried to write to /file. Fortunately, it didn't have permissions to do anything damaging. Hopefully it would have been better written if it did run with those permissions.

      Didn't Quake have an autoexec.bat file as a startup script?

    10. Re:How is that even possible by mav[LAG] · · Score: 2, Funny

      Technically it could've happened on Vista, but I haven't seen anything that said it did.

      Well, that would require a group of people who have Vista installed.

      --
      --- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
    11. Re:How is that even possible by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      This would've happened on Vista just the same, if it weren't for the fact that Vista uses a newer bootloader that no longer uses the boot.ini file. As such, Vista was unaffected, but UAC wouldn't have prevented this problem if Vista still were using the boot.ini file.

    12. Re:How is that even possible by RulerOf · · Score: 5, Informative

      Didn't Quake have an autoexec.bat file as a startup script? Quake 3, and I assume for 2 and 1, contained a file called "autoexec.cfg." I always thought it was aptly named, being a DOS veteran myself, because it contains game configs like default keybindings (e.g. bind w +move) and such that actually allow you to control the game in the first place, and it's always called during game startup. Very similar in function to the file that it is named after.
      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    13. Re:How is that even possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh don't play that game. It is so tiresome. You know 99% of the users are running as admin because thats just what you do in windows.

    14. Re:How is that even possible by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Really? You think your average user would pay attention to that? They know they're installing software, and they trust the source - unless they know what boot.ini and that it really is a bad idea to delete, chances are they'll just hit "Allow". That's one of the fundamental flaws of UAC as security. If the user trusts the installer, they're going to hit allow. If the user doesn't trust the installer, they wouldn't have run it anyway. UAC is good for things that try to stealth-install, or do things behind the user's back, but it doesn't protect from buggy software (like this) or malicious software that tricks a user into running it (like trojans).

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    15. Re:How is that even possible by m4g02 · · Score: 1

      I don't understand your reply, he said UAC wouldn't stop it from happening but that Vista has a new boot system that no longer use a boot.ini file (changes are made with bootsect.exe). He is right and... I don't know what are you discussing. What's your point? You seem to be off-topic.

      --
      Sigs are for morons... Wait a minute...
    16. Re:How is that even possible by m4g02 · · Score: 1

      Technically it could've happened on Vista

      Wrong, Vista no longer use a boot.ini file, changes to the boot process can only be made by running bootsect.exe in a CMD window.

      --
      Sigs are for morons... Wait a minute...
    17. Re:How is that even possible by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you're right, I misread the wouldn't as would.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    18. Re:How is that even possible by DeeQ · · Score: 1

      First if they were not admins they wouldn't be able to install anything. So this would have never happened if they couldn't be admins. So you are basically saying no kid you can't play video games at all or do anything on your computer. If you were to argue a more sensible adult should regulate what gets installed it would make no difference. This was a video game that has worked for quite some time now and would be trusted. They adult would just log in and do it himself. Also Don't you need root privileges to install things in linux? Guess what happens when your running that installation, as admin, that was bugged and for some god awful reason it deletes your important files. Linux doesn't protect them either. It has nothing to do with the OS. It has everything to do with the programmers program.

    19. Re:How is that even possible by RonnyJ · · Score: 1

      The "legacy" defense they give is exceedingly weak, in fact non-existent.

      Windows 2000 was released in 1999, XP in 2001, both use boot.ini - yet they say they named it in 2001 but say the name is there because of "legacy"? This could have happened back in 2001, they couldn't have used the "legacy" excuse then. I'd sooner they said 'yeah, we gave a file a silly name, and didn't realise'.

    20. Re:How is that even possible by Deviate_X · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "how is it even possible to remove a system file that is necessary to boot the system. Unlike the EVE representative making this statement I am going to blame Microsoft,"

      The boot.ini file is actually protected. It is specifically marked as a System File, Read-Only and Hidden. This means that to modify the file you need to remove these attributes in a specific order first before you can modify or delete it, even if you are logged in as Administrator.

      The only way to prevent software from doing bad things to important system files not to store important system information in text files on the filesystem...

    21. Re:How is that even possible by WWWWolf · · Score: 1

      Quake 3, and I assume for 2 and 1, contained a file called "autoexec.cfg."

      Yup, Quake 1 and 2 have that file too (though it doesn't seem to be always present, unless created by the user - at least for me, it seems that the only game where it gets automatically created if it doesn't exist is Quake 1). It also seems to appear in Doom 3 and Quake 4, and I assume every game other game based on id engines.

    22. Re:How is that even possible by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Technically it couldn't have happened on Vista for other reasons - Vista does not use boot.ini at all to boot up apparently.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    23. Re:How is that even possible by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

      This could indeed happen on any system. I saw a Perl script in Linux just today that said ${directory}/file. The directory variable was empty and it tried to write to /file. Fortunately, it didn't have permissions to do anything damaging. Hopefully it would have been better written if it did run with those permissions.

      Didn't Quake have an autoexec.bat file as a startup script? It can't happen on some systems like OS X.

      There is no boot.ini -of course- but lets try deleting a system file necessary for booting

      Ilgaz:etc ilgaz$ rm rc.common
      override rw-r--r-- root/wheel for rc.common?

      That would happen.

      Applications doesn't even need to care what are in root or system init directories since they are in /Applications , actually they are Directories looking like Applications. They just care about their own .app directory in /Applications .

      Lets say they need to install/update a framework. Again, they will hit /Library/Frameworks , NOT /System/Library/Frameworks

      It is a OS design issue, a lot deeper thing than game vendor (random victim) can fix. I call them victim since this happened on many other titles in one way or other.

    24. Re:How is that even possible by Ornedan · · Score: 1

      No, you don't need root to install stuff in Linux. You can quite well install software under your home directory instead of the system directories. Which could of course put your data at risk, so if you suspect that a piece of software is bad or comes with a bad installer, you can create a dedicated user account for it.
      As for (commercial) games, UT2k4 was installable and runs quite OK without root having ever gotten involved in the process.

    25. Re:How is that even possible by doxology · · Score: 1

      I've actually had something like this happen on Linux. I was installing root (physics analysis software) from source, but I did something very wrong (like, didn't set the install path correctly or something, I'm not quite sure what happened, actually) and make install (as su) ended up deleting everything in /etc and putting in a few files belonging to root there. It ended up being a good reason to upgrade to Fedora 7 on that machine.

      --
      sigfault. core dumped.
    26. Re:How is that even possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically it could've happened on Vista, but I haven't seen anything that said it did. No, it couldn't. There is no boot.ini file in Vista, it was superceeded by BCDEdit.
    27. Re:How is that even possible by sa1lnr · · Score: 1

      All the default settings are in config.cfg iirc.

      Everytime I build a new rig I install QuakeII just to do a timedemo.

      My last one was 975fps at 1280 X 960, kinda beats the 83fps at 800 X 600
      I used to get with my old Voodoo2 card with the 3DNow optimised version
      on a K6-III 450 that I had when the game came out.

    28. Re:How is that even possible by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      This means that to modify the file you need to remove these attributes in a specific order first before you can modify or delete it,
      According to the windows API docs you only have to remove the "read only" attribute (which you end up with among other things for files copied direct from CD so it is not unreasonable for an install scripting tool to be pretty agressive about removing it) to use deletefile

      --
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    29. Re:How is that even possible by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Technically it could've happened on Vista Actually, it couldn't. Vista neither uses nor even has a boot.ini file (it's not even there in some legacy form). Vista's bootloader is rather more complex than ntldr, mostly (AFAIK) because it needs to be for BitLocker (Vista's full-drive encryption tool, which requires a separate boot partition since the entire system volume gets encrypted). This new bootloader also uses a different configuration store, and boot.ini has been removed entirely.
      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    30. Re:How is that even possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NT4 used boot.ini, and I'm pretty sure NT3.5 did as well. That means over a decade of use, which makes the legacy statement really mean "someone was an idiot a long time ago, and we were idiots still by never changing it - oops!

    31. Re:How is that even possible by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      This is a multi-part failure. One part Microsoft for making an OS that almost requires standard users to run a privileged account all the time to make basic applications work. One part CCP for developing software that damaged the underlying OS.

      Windows hasn't 'required' privileged accounts since ME. But everybody bitches about Vista trying to *enforce* not using a privileged account for everything.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    32. Re:How is that even possible by brkello · · Score: 1

      If a game installer (which probably would want root privileges) had used the same name as Linux's boot files and the installer screwed up and overwrote the file in /boot by mistake...the same thing would happen. This is their fault. Period.

      --
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  5. Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Animaether · · Score: 4, Informative

    what of the users who did lose valuable computer time due to this problem? The proverbial kid handing in their homework (or dissertation paper or whatever), for example. Apologizing and willing to pay for a third party tech support service (e.g. Geek Squad) is nice and all, but does that cover damages incurred? doubtful. Perhaps that EULA will finally get a test.

    As for the bug itself... the installer code is NSIS script; quite powerful, but you do need to know what you're doing. Especially with a command such as "Delete", I can't help but wonder who failed to RTFM (TFM reads, as they point out, that "Delete" requires a full path to be safe or else it expects the path to be root) and instead made an -assumption- on how it would work.

    Now, to their defense, NSIS is also a little inconsistent (RMDir needs /r to be recursive, but DeleteRegKey needs /ifempty to NOT be recursive; whatthe.) and I've wiped my entire root myself while developing an installer with it, although via a more complex bug.. NSIS simply doesn't have any built-in "you dumbass"-protection like most commercial installers.

    Although I think it's nice of them to say that they're not blaming Windows for their own mistake, I do honestly think that Windows should protect such vital files at all cost - including against Administrator level process (e.g. a prompt "you dumbass - are you sure?" will do).

    1. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 4, Informative

      what of the users who did lose valuable computer time due to this problem? The proverbial kid handing in their homework (or dissertation paper or whatever), for example. Apologizing and willing to pay for a third party tech support service (e.g. Geek Squad) is nice and all, but does that cover damages incurred? doubtful. Perhaps that EULA will finally get a test.

      Almost never will damages be covered. Come to think of it, I think in this case I can say "Damages will never be covered." You have to show value and proof of destruction of that value. Your homework being destroyed? Your dissertation being destroyed? While it may have a large amount of value to you, monetarily it has very little value.

    2. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by zippthorne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      what of the users who did lose valuable computer time due to this problem?


      That's a good point. And generates some good advice for future student/gamers: Do not install any new software of any kind a week or two before a paper is due*

      *at least, not without having some kind of back-up which can be read and worked on on another computer and which you regular test.

      TFM reads, as they point out, that "Delete" requires a full path to be safe or else it expects the path to be root


      That sounds like the the opposite of a good way for delete to fail.
      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 1

      Although I think it's nice of them to say that they're not blaming Windows for their own mistake, I do honestly think that Windows should protect such vital files at all cost - including against Administrator level process (e.g. a prompt "you dumbass - are you sure?" will do).

      Isn't the first thing most people do on Vista is turn off the Administrator "Are you sure?" prompts?

      (I know that personally I do not- I don't get them more than a half-dozen times a day, if that, so it's really not that big a deal.)
      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    4. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The proverbial kid handing in their homework (or dissertation paper or whatever), for example.

      The children! Won't somebody PLEASE think of the CHILDREN! *swoons*

    5. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Thomas+M+Hughes · · Score: 2, Informative

      Almost never will damages be covered. Come to think of it, I think in this case I can say "Damages will never be covered." You have to show value and proof of destruction of that value. Your homework being destroyed? Your dissertation being destroyed? While it may have a large amount of value to you, monetarily it has very little value. Lost homework is usually only about 1-3 weeks of lost work. Often less. Dissertations are a whole different beast.

      A lost dissertation has a lot more value than sentimental value. You've spent X years of your life working on it, with the clear expectation that you have a high probability of getting a PhD. Having a PhD means getting a job that pays better than the pay of a graduate student. If graduate student pay is $Y, and reasonable post-doctoral pay is $Z, and you lost X years of work due to the bug, the monetary value of a lost dissertation is X*(Z-Y). This is assuming the entire dissertation can be recreated again, which in some cases is not possible.

      As a PhD student in the social sciences, my graduate student pay is ~$15k on average. Starting PhD pay is ~$40k. It takes 7 years to get a PhD on average, but for realistic sake, lets say I've been working on my dissertation for 2.5 years (ignoring the time spent on comprehensive exams and coursework). Using these values in the formula above, I'd expect to lose $62,500 dollars if I had to start my dissertation from scratch. These values go much higher in the hard sciences, with little question.

      Knowing this, I've got backups of stuff, because I'm not an idiot. But were I to lose everything, it'd be really, really hard for you to claim that my loss was minimal in monetary terms, and only a large loss in personal sentimental value. If someone were to maliciously burn down my home, including a large portion of my notes and drafts for my dissertation, you better believe I'm going to claim monetary losses on those. I fail to see how it's any different if a corporation's negligence does similar damage.
    6. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Why weren't these people backing up their work (let alone definitely needing it when using an operating system well known for its bugs)?

    7. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Ost99 · · Score: 1

      Even though the bug deleted a file, it's not possible to lose data due to this bug.
      The only thing you stand to lose is a few minutes (or hours) of production time due to a non booting system.

      --
      ---- Sig. gone.
    8. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A dissertation being lost due to a program deleting one or more files shows some value: the value of the system administrator. Zero.
      It would be dumber to keep a dissertation on a single system with no backup, than to distribute a game with an installer that deletes a file.

    9. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by houghi · · Score: 1

      Well, the people who sufferd will have learned some valuable lessons:
      1) Do not install anything anymore once a system is running and you have critical data on it.
      2) Backup
      3) Be able to restore that backup

      To me it is comparable to changing a tire. If you are not able to do that, you should not even be given a driving licence.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    10. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      anon to bail on mod bits...

      what if in those few hours (if you're not familiar with Windows at all and don't have a boot or rescue disk, etc. etc.) you needed access to those files? Do you file away every new e-mail to an external drive ready to be taken to the nearest computer cafe in case your machine goes wonky? I doubt it.

    11. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      anon to bail on mod bits...

      I love these types of responses :) say 'kid' and "won't somebody think of the children!" responses abound. So just for you imbalanced people who think that any time kids are mentioned it's a "think of the children!" argument (despite that kids are more likely to play this thing, kids including ages all through to their late teens - not just the images of 6 year olds that such cries tend to conjure (I'd be a little worried if somebody let a 6 year old play EVE, but I'm sure that'll just get me more "won't somebody think of the children" respones XD), and some kid actually having lodged exactly such a complaint on their forums), here's a "think of the geriatrics!" argument.

      What about granny who wanted to mail her grandson who is deployed to Iraq and only has a small window to read the e-mail; and now can't? Won't somebody think of the geriatrics!? And the veterans-to-be, for that matter! Go troops, or something!

    12. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      anon to bail on mod bits...

      as mentioned in another post - it's not so much the point that you don't have access to the file forevermore.. clearly you can get access back to it. It's that for whatever amount of time between that cockup and your getting things back up and running - you do not have access to it. To some that may not be particularly important, to others it could very well be. And yes, I know, if your data/etc. is so important, one shouldn't be installing games on it anyway - right? :)

    13. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Its interesting to note that its impossible to do stuff like that accidentally under Linux. /boot/ is usually unmounted once its not needed and *nothing* should be touching anything in there anyway.

      Oh well. Thats what Windows users get for using a really bad file layout.

    14. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Stevecrox · · Score: 1

      You realise most people on Slashdot attack Vista for doing what you suggested.

    15. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by deathy_epl+ccs · · Score: 1

      what if in those few hours (if you're not familiar with Windows at all and don't have a boot or rescue disk, etc. etc.) you needed access to those files? Do you file away every new e-mail to an external drive ready to be taken to the nearest computer cafe in case your machine goes wonky? I doubt it.

      Do you expect to get paid by somebody every time your computer gets corrupted when you need to finish some vitally important work?

      Also, the window was incredibly thin in which it took them to catch it... they have a couple hundred thousand players, and approximately 200 players got hit by it (I'm rounding, I know the number is larger) which indicates that the response time had to have been pretty quick, since the players were undoubtedly waiting with baited breath to download the patch as soon as the servers came back online.

    16. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > "Delete" requires a full path to be safe or else it expects the path to be root

      But that's a completely braindead design by default. EVERY SANE PIECE OF SOFTWARE assumes CWD. For DELETE, of ALL operations, to ignore the EXPLICITLY-SET PATH and work on the ROOT makes this the fault of the installer for sheer unparalleled fuckheadedness (and that's a technical term).

      It would be like if "ls" were replaced by a "ls" that formatted the root partition unless you invoked it as

      "ls --do-not-format-root-please-pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top"

      I don't blame the EVE guys for this one. If every single line of every single program has to be vetted by every single person every single time they use it along with cross-referencing the complete documentation of Shakespeare, you might as well forget about ever getting anything done in software and retire to Montana.

    17. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I don't think I've seen any Linux distribution where /boot is unmounted after boot, and most of the newer ones tend to default to a single-partition layout. A better example would be something like the FreeBSD boot loader, where the multiboot code lives in the boot sector (512 bytes of really neat assembly code) and presents a menu for selecting the partition or disk to boot from. Even if the entire FreeBSD partition is nuked you can still boot into any other operating systems you might have installed.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    18. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Your dissertation being destroyed?
      If the crash of your computer means your "dissertation being destroyed", you may be too stupid for a PhD anyway. nothing.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      That's a good point. And generates some good advice for future student/gamers: Do not install any new software of any kind a week or two before a paper is due*


      Well, over at my university we have deadlines every second week or so... that advice would pretty much require you to not keep your system up to date with patches. This would be why I backup my entire /home directory to an external drive that isn't connected when I'm not making the backups, and keep copies of important papers on a USB key I carry with me. I guess if my house burns down I might lose the computer and the drive, but I'd still have the important stuff on the USB key, and quite frankly I think my university would consider my house burning down "exceptional circumstances".
    20. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is is that if something bad happens you seem to want compensation? This is life, something bad happens, that doesnt entitle you to reparations. The sooner you yanks learn this and stop suing everyone for everything the better.

    21. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by GryMor · · Score: 1

      Significantly more got hit than the 200 that contacted them. But as they said, most people could eventually fix it themselves or with help from friends, and in many cases where they needed help from friends, they had no means of contacting CCP until their computer was fixed. Three members of my (tiny) corp got hit with the problem, one needed some assistance fixing it and had no net access until he was instructed, over the phone, on how to fix his computer. Anecdotally, there were people whose tech support reformatted their drives to fix the problem, but I have no way of verifying that.

      --
      Realities just a bunch of bits.
    22. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vista does protect critical system files by locking out everyone (including "SYSTEM") and only allowing the new TrustedInstaller account access to the files - an admin has to go to some lengths to deletes such files. This is different to the UAC prompts most other people are referring to, so even if you were prompted and confimed the deletion it won't happen as you won't (even as admin) have sufficient permissions..

      Although having said that, this particular problem is a non-issue on Vista as there is no boot.ini file - the boot loader uses a different mechanism for this now.

    23. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by KillzoneNET · · Score: 1

      what of the users who did lose valuable computer time due to this problem?
      Well obviously, if anyone who puts valuable time into the use of their computer would be able to find out how to fix a problem on their own and any other problem they encounter in the future so as to not completely lose their valuable computer time.

      Its a different story however when said valuable computer time is dedicated to a space game on the internet...
    24. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do not install any new software of any kind a week or two before a paper is due* that's why i'm still using feisty fawn; exams are just round the corner :(
    25. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by petermgreen · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Data stored without backups is vulnerable to many things. Buggy software, viruses, hardware failure and so on. If you lose data as valuable as a phd thesis due to such a failure then IMO you who have been negligent.

      We don't expect hardware vendors to provide anything more than a replacement when thier products fail and I don't see why software should be any different.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    26. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fwiw, the dev blog post says the documentation says 'should' not 'requires' regarding DELETE. Granted this really doesn't count for an excuse, but it does imply they RTFM'd.

    27. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by LarsG · · Score: 3, Funny

      Do not install any new software of any kind a week or two before a paper is due

      ITYM "Don't install an addictive game before a paper is due."

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    28. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by cheesegoduk · · Score: 1

      Your dissertation being destroyed? If you don't have multiple backups of such an important piece of work(to you) in the first place, your just as retarded as the dev's who caused EvE's problem.

    29. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by tdknox · · Score: 1

      Gentoo by default will unmount /boot after booting if it is a separate partition. There may be other distro's that do this, but Gentoo I know from personal experience does.

      --
      Did you know that gullible is not in the dictionary?
    30. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by DeadChobi · · Score: 1

      There's a provision in the EULA that says basically that they aren't responsible for anything bad that happens to you as a result of using their software, and that it should not be used in any environment where a person's life or livelihood is at stake.

      In short, those people should have followed the EULA.

      --
      SRSLY.
    31. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by DeadChobi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I've found that EVE provides such a nuanced experience that it would be totally lost on anyone not older than 16. The game isn't the GAME, it's the little political games that we play within the rules of the game. For example, having Band of Brothers, the largest alliance in the game, put in an appearance when we're fighting a smaller alliance indicates that that smaller alliance is allied with BOB.

      There are more games to be played against other players than just fleet battles. You can fight alliances on the market by crashing it for their goods.

      --
      SRSLY.
    32. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by aesiamun · · Score: 1

      I wish you weren't anonymous for this...You were the first comment I really wanted to mod well and it I don't mod anonymous :(

    33. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by mrbooze · · Score: 1

      Also presumably in linux you wouldn't be running the game client update process as a user who even *could* touch the system boot environment even if it wanted to.

    34. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by the_fat_kid · · Score: 1

      ok, let me see if I understand this.
      You spend 2.5 years working on something that you think is worth $62,500.
      You keep only ONE copy of this. On your XP box, that you play games on. No back up. Not digital, not on paper, nothing?
      If this scenario plays out, you have learned at least one valuable lesson from your time in school.
      Many of us here on /. learned this lesson very early in life. Probably when a floppy disc went bad on our C64.
      Make back ups of thing that are valuable. Don't keep them in the same place as the original. Yes. that is work. Is it worth $62,500 and 2.5 years of your life?
      I think so.

      --
      -- Sig under construction...
    35. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by CCFreak2K · · Score: 1

      ...I do honestly think that Windows should protect such vital files at all cost - including against Administrator level process (e.g. a prompt "you dumbass - are you sure?" will do).
      You mean one of these?
      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
    36. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Runefox · · Score: 1

      Wha? You keep your dissertation in boot.ini? Clever.

      This deleted a single file, and even if it were to delete every file on your hard drive, you'd still have the option of recovery software. A delete without an overwrite is as simple as pie to recover, so if you've spent years on your dissertation, just spend the hour or so it'll take to get it back, if you haven't backed it up. Before you say it, yes, this is an installer, but if your installer flattened a hard drive before installing its software, you're looking at it failing before it gets to copy a file and your computer bombing fairly quickly, assuming that were actually possible. Assuming it only went for your dissertation, you're looking at something other than a programming error.

      Long story short:

      Disabling Windows != Hard Drive Gone.

      Hell, a Windows Repair or even a few keystrokes in the recovery console would fix this, hence the Geek Squad being dispatched. And hell, Windows falls back to C:\Windows on Partition 1 of Disk 1 if it doesn't find a boot.ini anywhere, so most people are in the clear, anyway (which is what they meant by "Windows recovering" after that on a single-partition system).

      --
      Screw the rules, I have green hair!
    37. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something like a dissertation should always be backed up remotely. ALWAYS. There is absolutely no excuse for doing otherwise.

      (Yes, I never followed that too closely either. But it would be my fault if I lost it all.)

    38. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I don't know what they do now, but about 15 year ago I did development for a company call FSC. We wrote insurance rating software. You know those adds that advertise they compare rates between different companies? That's the kind of application we wrote. Amazingly enough, we actually guaranteed that our software would produce the correct data. If the real cost was different than what our software quoted (and the error was not due to bad data being input) FSC paid the difference. This did mean that we had a tech support team that spent the majority of their time reviewing the data that the users input, and doing calculations by hand to prove the accuracy of the software.

      Of course, FSC was an anomaly. Since then, I have never seen a company stand behind their code.

    39. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if they don't have backups, then whose fault is it? btw, deleting boot.ini isn't going to result in lost data, just a lost system

    40. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by shannara256 · · Score: 1

      "Delete" requires a full path to be safe or else it expects the path to be root This seems like a bad design to me. Even aside from being inconsistent with the other file operations, which operate relative to a directory you set, if it requires a full path to be safe it should require a full path period. Assuming the root directory of a drive (which one? how does it decide?) is a bad decision for it to make.
    41. Re:Straightforward, sure.. but... | also, the bug by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      Although I think it's nice of them to say that they're not blaming Windows for their own mistake, I do honestly think that Windows should protect such vital files at all cost - including against Administrator level process (e.g. a prompt "you dumbass - are you sure?" will do).

      I disagree on this one. If I want to mess with my boot.ini or similar files as administrator, the operating system should not get in my way.
      This is not limited to Windows by the way, the default settings of certain other systems are also overly restrictive. But Ubuntu at least offers a howto on how to restore a classic root account on its website ;-)
      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
  6. So... by dangitman · · Score: 0

    Is it EVE, Eve, or EvE? The slashdot title, summary, and related links say three different things.

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
    1. Re:So... by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 1, Troll

      CCP write it as EVE on the website.

      --

      Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

    2. Re:So... by Cctoide · · Score: 1

      Additionally, people also say "EvE" because it's what it looks like on the logo, and "Eve" because, I assume, they're too lazy to capitalize the rest of the word.

      --
      "Let's face it, it's a good story. Accuracy would kill it."
    3. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I severely doubt anyone writes it as Eve because they're lazy. They (I, at least) write it as Eve because the name is Eve. It doesn't stand for anything, and the only reason it's capitalised is marketing bullshit. I object to marketing bullshit.

  7. It's nice when companies are honest by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If only more companies were so honest and straight forward when they cockup. It almost makes me feel like playing EVE again. CCP can consider themselves as being given a virtual karma bonus.

    Although I can't help but wonder if the "honesty is the best policy" choice was because of their handling of the last PR cockup.

    --

    Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

    1. Re:It's nice when companies are honest by soupforare · · Score: 1

      They're trying to make up for lost karma in the seemingly unending employee-player scandals.
      I'd probably give it another go, it's not really that bad for an online spreadshzzzzZZZZZZ

      --
      --- Do you believe in the day?
    2. Re:It's nice when companies are honest by discord5 · · Score: 1

      I'd probably give it another go, it's not really that bad for an online spreadshzzzzZZZZZZ

      Pvp is pretty awesome in Eve, but there are a lot of parts in the game that could really use some improvmezzzZZZZzzzzzZZZ

  8. Re:okay windows guys... by B3ryllium · · Score: 2, Funny

    I would, but I had a power outage that terminated my 4-week uptime. :)

    Worst part of it was, I was baking pecan butter tarts at the time. In an electric oven. They don't make UPSes for that.

  9. Lip service... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Don't believe everything you hear from profiteering companies.
    From CCP'S forums...

    http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=658000

    Cosmo Raata "quote"

    "Only question I have, is WHY THE F do you put up a phone# for someone in the US to call, ask them to leave a message and never call them back????!!! I needed assistance and ended up relying on help from someone else after waiting too long, as I had filed I needed and just couldn't wait for you. Kind of pathetic if you ask me. I was impressed that you'd offer to take calls, but you proved that it was only a fake gesture to cover your asses.

    P.S. You still haven't called (6 days later)."

  10. How long is too long? by DigitalReverend · · Score: 1

    He was one of 215 users that was affected, it's possible they didn't even know the cause. All you have if someone whining that they waited "too long". How long is too long? 15 minutes, 1 hour, 8 hours a day, multiple days? The user's post on that forum is very subjective and some people are just plain impatient.

    --
    I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
    1. Re:How long is too long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      6 days of waiting... That's too long.

    2. Re:How long is too long? by coolGuyZak · · Score: 1

      Further, who would admit they were wrong when they do get help? Online?

  11. Cancel or allow? by Rix · · Score: 1

    If you really want that sort of behaviour, why haven't you switched to Vista? That sort of behaviour is a big part of why hardly anyone is?

    1. Re:Cancel or allow? by Animaether · · Score: 1

      I have Vista running on one of my machines, as I need to be able to test on it.

      And no, I'm not referring to Vista's behavior of demanding Admin rights for a ton of things.. though I don't have a direct problem with that.. if somebody does, have them run as administrator.
      I'm only referring to popping up a big fat warning when you are (or something else is) about to do something to a critical system file where the change could very well leave the machine unbootable without a boot or rescue disc. As long as the machine can still boot on its own and load a smidgen of code that can restore whatever other system files - let an administrator play with those freely.. but files that completely prevent a bootup without external means should be very closely guarded.

    2. Re:Cancel or allow? by Daengbo · · Score: 1
      You mean like this?

      danielbo@danielbo-desktop:~$ sudo apt-get remove bash
      Reading package lists... Done
      Building dependency tree
      Reading state information... Done
      The following packages will be REMOVED:
      bash foomatic-db-engine foomatic-db-hpijs foomatic-filters ubuntu-desktop ubuntu-minimal
      WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed.
      This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!
      bash
      0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 6 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
      Need to get 0B of archives.
      After unpacking 8679kB disk space will be freed.
      You are about to do something potentially harmful.
      To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'
      ?]
      --
      Put identity in the browser.
    3. Re:Cancel or allow? by Animaether · · Score: 1

      Sure, why not? I think it's perfectly reasonably to warn not only the casual reader but even the administrators that what they're doing may not be the smartest thing in the world.

      A major complaint with Vista is that it tends to pop up the UAC dialog for a lot of things - so people tend to run into it several times per day (personally it's only several times per week but, again, it's just a devtest machine for me right now.. though during setup I still only hit it a few times; just that the times I hit it were perhaps questionable..).
      If the frequency was much reduced, the complaints would easily go away.

      The other part is that Windows users never really had to do any of this. Ask a Linux user how often they use sudo to automatically grant them the rights of another user; it's equivalent to a prompt except that you answered it pre-emptively: why yes, I would like to execute the following command with e.g. superuser privileges.

  12. Weak! by toadlife · · Score: 1

    The Operation Flashpoint dedicated server bug that deleted every file of the drive that it was installed on makes this one look weak.

    Wish I could find a link right now but I can't. It will quite a scene on the BI forums when that one came out.

    --
    I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    1. Re:Weak! by erdraug · · Score: 1

      That reminds me of those old Sierra installers for windows that deleted everything in the parent directory when the game was unistalled.

    2. Re:Weak! by Scoth · · Score: 1

      Also not quite as bad as the bug in one Firefox installer where if you installed it in c:\program files directly instead of c:\program files\Firefox, if you then uninstalled it it'd wipe out c:\program files

      Although I bet more than just Firefox's installer would do that.

  13. Re:That's actually a really straightforward respon by Ecuador · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah, if only more businesses did not test products enough before deployment, or read TFM when using delete commands...

    AND THEN they send GEEK SQUAD to "fix" your computer. Talk about adding insult to injury!

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
  14. Re:okay windows guys... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Hmm, too many humans rebelling again, eh Oracle?

  15. Only half the answer we need by Chuu · · Score: 1

    While it's nice to know the technical reasons for problem, it still does not answer why they failed to take note of this problem when it was originally reported and discussed on the beta server's message board two days before the expansion hit the live servers.

    It's in the eight post of this thread.

    1. Re:Only half the answer we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was mentioned somewhere in the EVE forums I believe, that their Windows XP setups are configured to have backups of critical system files; as such, when their own copies of Boot.ini were overwritten, Windows called upon the backup automatically, and booted as it normally would.

    2. Re:Only half the answer we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It was reported in a forum - why oh why would you report a bug such as this one in a forum the developers might or might not read instead of using the proper bug report tool is beyond me.

  16. Alright! by Cheezymadman · · Score: 4, Funny

    Finally, a benefit to Vista! Vista users like myself were 100% unaffected by this. It was awesome.

    --
    We're all going to die. i intend to deserve it.
    1. Re:Alright! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go walk in a ditch.

    2. Re:Alright! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I play via the Cedega *cider* client on Linux. Fortunately, as bastardized as Transgaming's fork of wine has become, it still doesn't require odious things like boot.ini. Technically, the Mac and Linux clients use classic mode (i.e. no updated graphics) they still get the Trinity client code. But then, I like playing my games in a sandbox where they and their typically hacked-for-performance and lower-quality code should not be allowed reach into my system and mangle its gentiles.

      Finally, a benefit to Vista! Vista users like myself were 100% unaffected by this. It was awesome.


      May people that were dual booting Vista and Windows XP discovered that if they were using the Vista boot loader they were unaffected. Even if they never booted into Vista again this worked. So much like other Microsoft software most the benefits came from not even running it.
    3. Re:Alright! by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Afaict the vista loader simply chainloads to NTLDR for XP and before.

      What those users with XP/Vista dual boots were probablly seeing is the same fallback that protected people with just a single XP install on the first partition.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    4. Re:Alright! by PlatyPaul · · Score: 1

      I just went to the trouble of deciphering your Geek Code. Good luck w/ improving your state-of-being :)

      --
      Misery loves company. Online misery loves unsuspecting random strangers.
  17. I cant help but wonder... by Nezer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have never been into MMOs. I just didn't get them. However, in the last week things have changed and it's due, in part, to this bug.

    You see, until this bug happened EVE was totally off my RADAR screen. When I read about the bug on /. last week I went to the companies website and found myself intrigued. Further discovery that they didn't charge $50 for the box on top of the monthly fee was also appealing. Further, I see client software for Macs and Linux. Intrigued I download the Mac client and create the trial account. Two days later I'm hooked and sending them my CC #.

    If it hadn't been for this bug, I probably would have never bought their product! They say that any publicity is good publicity and I think this is true. Sure the SNAFU was pretty bad yet the product was still compelling enough to buy it despite a pretty bad QA miss. This latest response from the company will only help further get their name out there and is truly an opportunity to make lemonade from lemons.

    1. Re:I cant help but wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're saying is, the worse your software is, the more people will be lining up to buy it? (insert microsoft joke here)

      I'm curious how you can be prompted to throw money at a company that just dropped the ball this severely in the QA department. Do you not like your computer?

      Plus, before harping on the virtues of CCP, I suggest you look around on /. for previous postings mentioning some of their practices.

    2. Re:I cant help but wonder... by the_humeister · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... if money was an issue, you should take a look at Guild Wars: pay for the game, but there's no monthly fee.

    3. Re:I cant help but wonder... by brkello · · Score: 1

      The game is fun at first. But after you start running the level 4 missions over and over again...and realize if you want to get deeper in to the game you have to give up your life...it gets boring fast (unfortunately).

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    4. Re:I cant help but wonder... by theMerovingian · · Score: 1


      I would advise reading up on EVE character creation before you get too far into it. I played for two months before I realized that my stats were crap and that I would never be any good with my current set-up (an Amarr with high charisma). The game is sneaky because it takes a long time to learn what the heck is going on. I was like 4 days from getting my first battleship before I realized what was up.

      Rather than paying $30 bucks to wait around while a new character learned stuff, I just cancelled it and went back to Diablo 2.

      --
      "If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
  18. boot.ini ? heh by l3v1 · · Score: 1

    Now if I could count how many hours of my life have I wasted because of disappeared boot.ini's, geez. Nice move, still.

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
  19. Re:okay windows guys... by m4g02 · · Score: 1

    I run Vista, so this would never happen to me as it no longer use a boot.ini file... But I do have to reboot quite often because the #$% thing keeps crashing for no reason :P

    --
    Sigs are for morons... Wait a minute...
  20. oh yes it is... by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

    When cloning my linux from old hd to new hd, I accidentally forgot to change the label name back for the root= entry in grub. and couldnt boot unless I fixed it with the repair CD console login.

    Its as fragile as boot.ini, though I personally have a few copies of it and /boot.copy /local/boot.old

    What linux needs is like the old VMS days of auto versioning, grub.conf;1 etc...

    If its a system core component config, then its smart to do it for that, HD space is plenty for text files.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    1. Re:oh yes it is... by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      a) You were moving partitions around, not installing a game patch. :P
      b) Why didnt you simply press 'e' at the grub screen? You can edit how it boots from its self.

    2. Re:oh yes it is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      e option in grub doesn't change the file, it only allows for a local change at the moment. You would still need to edit the file.

      And I take it you have never used LILO before?

      That syntax he quoted is LILO, which does NOT ofter a local change at the moment option like GRUB does.

  21. If somehow the boot.ini is deleted by zukinux · · Score: 0

    Just grub a linux-live-cd and install LILO/Grub/.. on MBR, then you would be able to select a partition on your booting process.

    What would we have done without Linux? Novel prize to Linus Torvalds.

    --
    Read and Comment at my BLOG
    !!!
  22. That was a very, very good analysis of the problem by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Informative

    Having violated /. policies and actually Read The Fine Article, it was a good analysis. I wish more people would write their bug reports this well, and explain how they're going to address the problem.

    I also wonder if they wouldn't benefit from a nice virtual environment system to do QA testing of new releases with? Capturing the full graphical behavior of an OS is difficult in virtual systems, due to the overhead of the virtualization itself, but it might be a lot cheaper than keeping a dozen different hardware configurations around.

  23. Package Management by Jessta · · Score: 1

    When is MS Windows going to get proper package management?
    These sort of problems are not something that should be occuring in a modern operating system.

    --
    ...and that is all I have to say about that.
    http://jessta.id.au
    1. Re:Package Management by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't have mattered. Unless your package manager runs as a special user who has carefully controlled privileges and you have some form of rôle-based access control this could still happen. A *NIX package can typically run pre- and post-install scripts (as root) and so it would be easy for the developer to accidentally do 'rm -rf boot' and have it delete the contents of the boot partition rather than the initialisation files for the package, since they forgot that the installer ran in the root directory rather than /opt/{package} (or wherever).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:Package Management by Jessta · · Score: 1

      I can't speak for other package managers but the gentoo package manager(emerge) runs the installer in a sandbox, it then copies the relevent files to the system while checking to see if they conflict with the files of any other package.
      An rm -rf in an install script will not do anything to the system.

      --
      ...and that is all I have to say about that.
      http://jessta.id.au
    3. Re:Package Management by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      How does this work with things like PostgreSQL, where the update procedure between major versions requires connecting to the live db, dumping the data and then restoring it, or for other packages where some configuration beyond simple modification of configuration files is required?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Package Management by WWWWolf · · Score: 1

      A *NIX package can typically run pre- and post-install scripts (as root) and so it would be easy for the developer to accidentally do 'rm -rf boot' and have it delete the contents of the boot partition rather than the initialisation files for the package, since they forgot that the installer ran in the root directory rather than /opt/{package} (or wherever).

      Yes, but at least in Debian, for most update tasks you don't have to manually add and remove files and directories; the package manager clears them up. If, when uninstalling package massive-timewaster, the package manager automatically removes the package's files from /usr/share/games/massive-timewaster and, if no files in that directory exist, the directory itself gets removed - BUT if there are files the user created, the directory is retained. It also won't overwrite another package's files, and will ask if it has to replace a config file that you have edited by hand (and a backup of the old version is retained if you choose to use the new version).

      I'm betting most *nix package managers would have easily caught a simple "messing with a file that belongs to another package" situation, which is what this boot.ini situation really boiled down to.

      However, for the sake of fair assessment, I have to say that at least in this GRUB package version I have at hand, dpkg doesn't seem to manage /boot/grub/menu.lst so theoretically another package could overwrite it. Well, at least GRUB will give you a prompt if it can't make heads or tails of the menu.lst. (I think. I could be wrong. =)

    5. Re:Package Management by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      I can't speak for other package managers but the gentoo package manager(emerge) runs the installer in a sandbox, it then copies the relevent files to the system while checking to see if they conflict with the files of any other package.
      An rm -rf in an install script will not do anything to the system.
      When compiling from the source with apt, apt-build will sandbox the 'installer' in question and generate a .deb package from that sandboxed environment. Then offer to install the .deb package it just created. Any conflicts will be indicated and handled as apt-get normally would.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    6. Re:Package Management by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      I suspect you are misinterpreting what the original poster meant by install script.

      On debian the upstreams installation script/target is typically only used to copy the files to a staging area during package build (though if you are lazy and build packages as root it can still do damage if it is buggy). But there are scripts that are part of the package which are run when the package is installed or removed to allow the package to update configuration and so on. If those scripts are buggy then they can definately trash systems.

      From a quick look it appears the situation on gentoo is similar but i'm no expert there.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  24. Not trying to troll but... by TheSeer2 · · Score: 1

    I reckon' they're only so open about it (even though there isn't much reason not to be, but all the first posts are praising them for some mystical transparency that is hardly unique) is to compensate for that whole staff-cheating scandal.

  25. Re:That's actually a really straightforward respon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now if only more businesses acted this way. But this thing made into every news site and people openly reported they can't boot into XP. It is nothing special to openly apologize and explain what really happened after it became public.
  26. I kept reading it as CCCP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Read it as CCCP and not CCP and everything becomes a whole lot clearer

  27. What can? by sid0 · · Score: 1

    but it doesn't protect from buggy software (like this) or malicious software that tricks a user into running it (like trojans).


    What can?
    1. Re:What can? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      User education, that's all. Or locking the machine down so tight that they can't install any software at all, or run anything that's not white-listed (but then, by who?). Kind of defeats the purpose of a general purpose computer though, if you ask me.

      --
      It's official. Most of you are morons.
    2. Re:What can? by sid0 · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm aware of it. It was somewhat of a rhetorical question. There's no patch for human stupidity (in this case, the developers').

      This is not a flaw in UAC, contrary to GGP.

    3. Re:What can? by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Well, a usable unprivileged account system can, to an extent. As discussed in other places in this story, Windows XP and below (not sure about Vista) expect users to be running as admin, and often fail to work properly if they don't. If they worked closer to the *nix model, then the impact of malicious/buggy software is, if not ameliorated completely, at least reduced.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  28. Can you imagine how this happened? by Daimanta · · Score: 2, Funny

    Programming guy 1: So we're finally done with coding everything.
    Programming guy 2: Yeah finally.
    *Programming guy 2 tries to make a joke*
    Pr. guy 2: Hey pr. guy 1, look at this
    Pr. guy 1: lol, you appended a del boot.ini
    Pr. guy 2: Well, I'm going to take a coffee break
    Pr. guy 1: Yeah, me too
    Pr. guy 2: Wait, lets put a sticky-note on the board that we're done
    Pr. guy 1: Sure
    *Pr. guy 2 puts sticky on the notice board*
    *both walk off*
    *manager walks in*
    *manager looks at the board*
    Clueless manager 1: Nice, the work is finally done.
    Cl. manager 1: Ahhh, I'm on a tight schedule. Lets send this file to the head programmer so he can compile everything.
    *Tries to click close*
    Cl. manager 1: What, changes have been made? Whatever, save.
    Cl. manager 1: Ok, open outlook. Send. Done. Wow, I know this will be a spectacular release.
    *Cl. manager walks of*

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
  29. Re:That was a very, very good analysis of the prob by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    the VM only give low end video cards that suck for game testing.

  30. New Trinity update patch notes.. by pizzutz · · Score: 1

    CCP is releasing their new update patch for Trinity next week. I don't think I've ever seen a software release patch notes that end with the disclaimer "Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch."

    --
    GE/CS/IT d- s: a- C++++$ UL+++ P-- L++++ E W+++$ N+ o? K- w---() !O M- V- PS+ PE(++) Y+ PGP+++(+) t+++ !5 X++> R- t
  31. Installer "technology" by kabdib · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm not aware of a single installer package on Windows that isn't a useless, complicated, badly-documented, bug-ridden piece of crap. The times when I've had to use (say) InstallShield, I've seriously thought about finding a new job. This stuff sucks *and* blows. (Don't get me started on USB support and BlueTooth. Oh my God. Don't even think about reading about that stuff: Once you crack open the docs and see the wavy tentacles, the squamous mouths, the eyes, the eyes, the eyes that . . . well, you'll never be quite the same again. T-tr-trust me on th-that).

    Remember the happy days of "just copy" installs, which worked great on MacOs in the 90s? Upgrade to a new system? Just copy your "apps" folder over.

    The question, "What kind of installer should our OS have?" is like asking, "Should we drink the red poison or the green one?" Just asking the question seals your doom.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is insufficiently documented.
    1. Re:Installer "technology" by jsfetzik · · Score: 1

      I build Windows installations about 6-8 times per year and deploy third party applications 'silently' 1-2 times per year and have to agree that most of the tools are complete garbage. This is mostly due to Microsofts completely f'd up, unfriendly and poorly documented Windows Installer. All the third party installers try to do tricks to work around the gaps in the Windows Installer, which ends up creating still more problems.

      The bigger question here is what the hell were they doing changing installation building tools only a couple of weeks before the biggest update they have done in years?!

      And yes I am an Eve player and yes I did end up with my boot.ini file deleted. Fortunately I hadn't yet rebooted when word of the problem got out and I was able to fix things.

  32. Bad screwup by the installer maker by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Having mixed, inconsistent addressing modes is a major design screw-up. And having a default of the "delete" command to delete somewere else than is intuitive, is completely unacceptable and the people responsible for it should be fired and striped of their qualification. These people are not engineers, but incompetent hacks.

    The right way to do it is that you can have inconsitencies, if a) there is a very good reason for it (here, there was none) and b) you make sure people notice. This can be done by making the command look different, e.g. "DeleteWithAbsolutePathOrRoot" or doing additional checking, like the delete command refusing to work if it is not given an absolute path. Of course documentation must also be correct, but the real screw-up is the command that looks just like the "file" command but works differently in an obviously potentially destructive fashion.

    I can really not blame CCP for being bitten by this. It is on a level of stupidity that you do not expect from a professional product, like a 3rd party installer. Also that Windows does not protect its boot.ini is pretty demented.

    The posting on the CCP blog, giving full technical details, but not involving into finger-pointing is also impressive. Dr. Thorsteinsson gives all the details and circumstances and explains what they are doing to prevent this in the future. I think this could not have been done better or more elegant.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Bad screwup by the installer maker by sydneyfong · · Score: 1

      It seems that they are using NSIS for their installer http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=389992&cid=21706528

      Since NSIS is open source, you may wish to help out a bit instead of trying to "fire" an open source developer (no idea how you'd do it)...

      As for inconsistencies... I can guarantee you'd find lots more inconsistent crap in Microsoft systems any day...

      --
      Don't quote me on this.
  33. MacOS installer is still like that by bigtrike · · Score: 1

    The vast majority of applications can be installed by dragging them into the Applications folder. Or they can be run from an archive. The magic required to do this on the OS level is pretty minimal.

    1. Re:MacOS installer is still like that by kabdib · · Score: 1

      That's incredibly good to hear (I haven't touched a Mac since I left Apple in the mid 90s).

      The thing about an "installer" is that you're already in trouble. You have to learn another language (looking at the knowledge base for InstallShield was a real eye-opener, things like "no longer crash when a case-statement expression is not constant" in like version 5 of the product), with no debugger and essentially no specified semantics, with buggy, inconsistent runtime support routines (such as the 'delete' landmine that the Eve folks were bit by), and that's all in preparation for loading up registry entries with gnarly, picky, badly documented values and arcane strings. It's an all-you-can-eat nightmare.

      The .NET folks seem to have their act together, to some extent; sensible search paths, just have the infrastructure installed and apps are likely to work. But it's still not totally wonderful.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced technology is insufficiently documented.
    2. Re:MacOS installer is still like that by grumbel · · Score: 1

      I would like to see some numbers on that. The majority of larger applications I know comes as Installer, Applications folder are mostly just for smaller stuff.

  34. ReCovery Disks? by fast+turtle · · Score: 1
    You do know that many system restore/recovery disks specifically warn you to backup your data before using because they wipe the drive and restore things to OEM Factory Defaults? How does this not cause data loss?

    Yes you can blame that on the OEM for not providing a proper full installation CD but by then it's already too damn late as the worst case scenario has already happend.

    Furthermore, by them being willing to reimburse for outside support (Geek Squad/Others) They've already admitted they f'scked up badly enough to be responsible, thus the EULA would not even come into play though if they were to argue it is still valid, the courts would probably rule that in this case "No It doesn't".

    --
    Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
  35. Re:That was a very, very good analysis of the prob by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    95%+ of bugs encountered in software like this will be graphics-card-specific.

    There are no solutions for running 3D accelerated apps (like EVE) in a VM that aren't still considered "beta/in testing" (like VMWare Fusion).

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  36. Arrrgg Fucking registries and the like! by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

    The first part of the problem is the bloody registry, the second part of the problem is the moron who decided to mix critical system configuration information with user space information, the third part of the problem is the lack of a programming philosophy of keep your own shit in your own space.

    I think the following design principles would go a long way to solving this problem:

    • Complete and total segregation of the system configuration from user space, programs may have READ ONLY access.
    • creation of a system services catalog where programs can discover what services are available
    • a distinct and separate disk space for libraries, eg: stay the fuck OUT of the system directory(s)
    • Keep all your own libraries that YOU build in your own user space area and stop scattering it all over the hard drive. This is what path statements and environment variables are for.
    • Eliminate the path searching function of LoadLibrary(), if you dont know where your fucking DLL is, to damn bad.
    --
    Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    1. Re:Arrrgg Fucking registries and the like! by greyphi · · Score: 1

      So the answer to all of the above steps is:
      Use a *nix system....

  37. Re:That's actually a really straightforward respon by ScotchForBreakfast · · Score: 1

    Thankfully more businesses don't hork up your OS so they don't have to act this way.

  38. Blame app developers, not Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft does not require admin rights to run programs. I'm one of those who zealously use normal "limited" user when I can
    Even some games run perfectly well under XP. Probably around 80% of games work perfectly fine under a limited user.

    Works fine:
    Sims 2
    Total war series
    Stardock downloadables
    THQ games (eg Company of Heroes)

    Needs Tweaks / relaxed file permissions
    Steam

    Does not work:
    Anything with Punkbuster (cod4, battlefield, etc)
    Most direct2drive.com games. (pay for and download legal copy).
    Many other download services.

    1. Re:Blame app developers, not Microsoft? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Does not work:
      Anything with Punkbuster (cod4, battlefield, etc)
      I'm not disagreeing, but have you tried ET:QW? It installs a PunkBuster service (two?) and so while installation requires admin access, playing the game may well not. (I've not tried it - I run as an admin and rely on my common sense to keep me out of trouble. So far, so good...)
      --
      It's official. Most of you are morons.
  39. Re:That was a very, very good analysis of the prob by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

    There are no solutions for running 3D accelerated apps (like EVE) in a VM that aren't still considered "beta/in testing" (like VMWare Fusion).
    Eve is written in the Python language, the binary itself is a virtual machine (not a standard Python runtime though).
    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  40. Good response by d_jedi · · Score: 1

    I was not affected by this issue, but I'm impressed by the explanation that really answered the question of "how the fuck could this happen" well..

    as a software developer, I can't say I wouldn't make the same mistake in the same circumstances..

    --
    I am the maverick of Slashdot
  41. Have you tried InnoSetup? by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

    We use it at my place of work and I find it a lot easier to understand than InnoSetup. Plus it is free to download. One major limitation is that it does not support Windows Installer, instead you get a "classic" setup.exe.
    Link: http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  42. Historical Problem by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

    I think this is a leftover from the days of Windows 3.x and 9x, which were NOT properly designed as professional, multitasking operating systems.

    Among other things, everybody was administrator. Which led to somewhat unhealthy design habits on the part of application developers, who often took the easy path of just dropping DLLs and such into the system directory. Including some of Microsoft's own developers, but I digress... ;-)

    Today, it seems that Microsoft has recognized the problem and tries to contain it. But the need to stay compatible to old applications still leads to weird workarounds and designs in Windows.
    On systems that were designed with multiuser support from the beginning (Unix/Linux just to give one example), point 1 and 4 of your list are implemented and it makes a big difference.

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  43. Ohhh. Intimate Details by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    The blog post has intimate details

    Intimate Details about Eve put Online. I can't wait!

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  44. History of problems? by trickster721 · · Score: 1

    I tried their demo a while back, moved the folder the installer created in my start menu, and when I uninstalled, it deleted all of my start menu shortcuts. I wasn't impressed.

  45. Are people still really running XP? by Gkyluig · · Score: 1

    People update their games but not their OS??? What a bunch of babies. It's like, "Oh no, the update crashed my Altair!"

  46. Lots of PCs have multiple partitions by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Note the comment that this only affected systems where XP/2000 was not on the first partition of the boot drive.


    And a lot of BRANDed machine (like DELLs for example) have a first hidden partition at the beginning of the disc containing various daignostic tools that can be accessed from the Bios boot menu.

    The main problem is that critical files such as boot.ini should be writeable by non-priviledged accounts. On linux, you can't overwrite anything /boot/grub unless you get root first. With Windows' broken design (can't really do anything useful on a computer unless your account is permanently set as "administrator") things like overwriting your boot.ini can happen.
    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Lots of PCs have multiple partitions by Dmala · · Score: 1

      The main problem is that critical files such as boot.ini should be writeable by non-priviledged accounts. On linux, you can't overwrite anything /boot/grub unless you get root first. With Windows' broken design (can't really do anything useful on a computer unless your account is permanently set as "administrator") things like overwriting your boot.ini can happen.

      Sad to say, one of the few genuine improvements in Vista is that this is no longer the case by default. Even with an "administrator" account, nothing runs with admin privileges unless you explicitly choose to do so. Of course this assumes that you haven't shut off UAC to use software from a vendor who can't/won't/hasn't gotten around to updating for UAC compatibility.

  47. Re: Backups by bateleur · · Score: 1

    Don't just copy to the data to some cheap CD either. Make sure you have at least one offsite backup (not hard to do - remote disk space is cheap) and at least one backup you maintain manually (so that a serious problem with your backup software cannot leave you unable to access your data).

  48. Re:That was a very, very good analysis of the prob by Raenex · · Score: 1

    Be sure to read this earlier Slashdot story as well, which covers a previous scandal involving employee cheating. That was followed by another scandal.

  49. Re:That was a very, very good analysis of the prob by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    Everything performance critical (i.e. the graphics engine) is written in C.

    Python is used for all of the non-performance-critical stuff though.

    Either way, it definately depends on 3D hardware acceleration, which can't be virtualized easily/reliably.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  50. Re:That's actually a really straightforward respon by brkello · · Score: 1

    ?? You want more companies to hire people who cheat the system and then when caught aren't fired? Eve is pretty messed up. Admitting they royally screwed up is nice...but I would like to have more companies not screw up than apologize after the fact.

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