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HP & Staples Collude On $8,000/Gallon Ink?
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "HP and Staples are facing an anti-trust lawsuit over replacement printer cartridges. According to the lawsuit, HP paid Staples $100 million to refuse to stock competing ink cartridges. HP could make that back in short order when you consider that printer ink can cost $8,000 per gallon and certain printers deceive users to waste as much as 64% of their ink."
Prices of various liquids per mL:
http://eatliver.com/i.php?n=2648
As Jeremy Clarkson noted in Top Gear: the fact that oil companies extract oil, refine it, distribute it all for a few cents a liter is actually amazing. Gasoline is extremely cheap!
Just ask Canon about the failure of their Wifi printers - you could not buy them at *any* retail store (or even Dell, which carried the rest of Canon's lineup) because the printer did not enable the retailer to sell the $30 USB cables.
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I'm pretty sure that paying a retailer not to stock your competitors' products constitutes collusion and is a clear violation of antitrust laws. This is akin to Nike paying Wal*Mart $100 million not to stock Adidas shoes. The only thing that muddies the water a little bit is that 'compatible' inkjet cartridges violate the DMCA and probably several HP patents, and hence are illegal. Anyone know how this might affect the lawsuit?
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Not that I don't think that ink is severely overpriced but where did they come up with this number? Did they include the price of the cartridge that the ink comes in as well?
It is only a matter of time before someone offered inexpensive ink. It was obvious that HP was taking extreme measures to prevent someone from competing in that space.
This shows how important regulation of businesses we need to have. Too many people don't want to get involved in anything (government or otherwise). It is sad that the people who run these businesses feel they don't have to be accountable at all to anyone about how they run their business.
Can be refilled. Runs cartridges until they're dry. Built like a tank.
Wish they still made printers like that. I'd like something as robust but faster and higher resolution.
Go to Cartridge World, or even Walgreens now. They will refill your ink very cheaply. You need to print a couple of pages to get the ink to come out, but after that, it is as good as new.
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When the cartridges shipped with your printer only have 10% the capacity of a new one off the shelf, to force you to buy a new one (with it's far higher profit margin), THAT is what people should be jumping up & down about.
I'm a perfectionist but I'm trying to cut back.
...is printers that refuse to print a document when the level of one color of ink is low even if the document being printed doesn't use that color at all. I have an Epson that I like pretty much. It has individual cartridges for each color of ink but if, say, the cyan cartridge is empty, I can't print even if the page is nothing but black text. There's no real reason for it, it's strictly a software (or firmware) limitation put in by the manufacturer.
This ain't rocket surgery.
Since I run a small print shop for churches, we go through a ton of ink and toner, to the tune of about $3000 per week. We buy ALL our ink and toner is very large amounts (toner by the kilogram, ink by the half gallon). Refills are cheap. And yet, I don't think that retailers deciding together to not stock competitive products is "bad" collusion -- it's just how their market needs to work to be profitable.
Anyone can go online and buy cheap refilled cartridges that tend to work. If they're buying locally, it might be that they don't trust the Internet (stupid reason), or that they waited too long to stock up on ink (probably true). I yell at my folks constantly for paying $40 for one cartridge when I can get them a replacement for $3, but usually its due to the dreaded "Out of ink" message. Convenience can often times mean MONEY.
The manufacturers screwed up, big time. They didn't listen to the market, and they decided to give away the printer and hope to make it up on the ink. That's not how most markets work, not even the razor market now. Every item has to have a profit, or someone will find a way to sell your high markup goods cheaper. Many more people now are learning that the $49 inkjet has $49 cartridges OEM, or $12 cartridges aftermarket. The days of the $49 loss-leader are over (although I think you can probably make a profitable inkjet that sells at $35, with reduced features and a generic print driver).
I honestly don't think collusion is a big deal. I know it supposedly hurts consumers, but in the long run, competition DOES begin due to what seems like obvious price fixing. I recall the early days of computer RAM when you honestly had few resources for brands. Now we have dozens. When a few companies collude on RAM pricing, the competition generally fixes it. It may take a few years, but it happens, and the worst thing to happen to those colluding is that they lose market share or go out of business when consumers discover that they've gouged people.
Legal action is unnecessary. Let the market work. More laws and regulations will make it HARDER for new companies to enter the market.
If HP paying Staples $100 million to not carry competitors' products is collusion, shouldn't we consider the HD-DVD camp paying Paramount and Dreamworks $150 million to not release Blu-ray titles collusion?
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Mostly this is because most users are clueless and don't understand 3 things about inkjet printers:
1) Using plain (uncoated) paper is a bad idea. The paper dust gets in the print heads and clogs them.
2) If your printer has sat along time without being used, it probably has some dried ink stuck in the print nozzles. You need to clean the nozzles in order to get the best print results after it's sat for more than 2-3 days without being used. Even after cleaning, if image quality problems don't go away, you need to throw away the ink cart, no matter how much ink is in it.
3) Old ink carts (there's an expiry date on the box, usually) should be thrown away and not used.
Unfortunately, since they don't understand this, the printer mfr. puts chips in the carts to try to force the issue, when really the problem is user education.
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Haven't personally used an inkjet for about six years. Laser all the way. You can get colour networked laser for home use for about £300, with reasonable sized toners. I even have a Samsung that have a refillable combined toner/drum that's only on it's second actual toner/drum and has been refilled dozens and dozens of times from a £10 toner bottle. Perfect prints every time, used every single day.
The amount of time you need colour is pitiful, and for home use (business should not be using inkjet, no excuse) it's virtually all for photos - that's the only real time a laser can't cut it, when you want a small glossy. Then, taking your photos on a card down to the local supermarket works out much, much, much cheaper. My brother bought a load of second-hand HP Laserjet 4MV's on eBay - all ex-business, all done about 100,000 pages minimum, all still going strong five years later and toner is dirt cheap and easy to come by. This is a person who prints out 50 copies of 100-page brochures every week.
Why people continue to buy ink jets is beyond me. I paid only $350 for an HP Color Laserjet 2605dn a year ago, and my starter cartridges are still going strong. This printer has built-in duplexing, networking, web management, and is postscript so works flawlessly with any computer you'd like to use with it. Bonus: no worrying about ink cartriges drying up, or print heads clogging.
/. I'm not a subscriber, but I've had this account for several years, so according to the FAQ I should be able to tag articles.
Buy a laser printer. For pictures, have them developed at wal-mart for like $0.10 each.
BTW...HTH do I tag an article on
So how long will it be before somebody manufactures an industrial-grade inkjet printer with durable metal parts, which takes bulk ink (by flexible hoses, from litre bottles which can be hot-swapped) and incorporates PostScript Level 3 in hardware so absolutely no driver issues?
There's definitely a market for such a machine. I've been using a HP Business Inkjet, which is certainly semi-industrial and although not PS, uses a common driver; but it still takes ink cartridges (double-sized black cartridge, though) and a new set adds up to a hefty amount. A bulk-fed, metal-built printer would easily outlast the number of cartridges you could have bought for the same price.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
But then something happened at HP. A number of years later, I remember one of the top dogs in management declaring that they were taking the company in a new direction; that their old methods were being updated to reflect better business models. --This spin-doctored response came as when they were asked why their printers had begun to suck shit.
I today own an HP Laserjet 5L. It is a piece of crud. --It's output looks sharp, but it's a flimsy piece of junk which stopped working properly about a year after I'd bought it. It jams constantly and the toner cartridge seems to run out far more frequently. I'd tell HP to go to hell, but I think they may already be there.
-FL
The "cheapness" of oil is only a testament to the value of crude as a natural resource, not to the benevolent oil companies who do so much for so little. Future generations will look back enviously at how we got energy just by sticking a tap in the dirt and turning on the spigot.
The second article seems pretty stupid. It's about a study that makes two points:
Okay, the first point is reasonable, if obvious. But the second? Here's how the story is introduced (emphasis mine):
But, two paragraphs later, a clarification (again, emphasis mine):
Yes, I want my printer to warn me that it's low on ink before it runs dry. That way, I can check if I have a refill and if not, I have some time to go to the store and buy one. Are they really claiming that people throw away ink as soon as the printer reports it's running low?
From the summary, you might think that they actually ran printers until they stopped printing and then measured how much ink was left in the cartridge. But it seems they did no such thing. They simply measured how much warning the printers give you before running out of ink and then tried to confuse people by using "low on ink" and "out of ink" interchangeably.
Just we look back enviously on how those in the 1970's could just split an atom and have nearly limitless energy...
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
Here is a trick I discovered yesterday regarding my Epson Stylus C65. OK quality printer, but repeatedly refused to print, claiming that one of the cartridges were empty. Even more annoying, the darn thing refused to print B&W even when you ran low on e.g. RED. Stupid.
.. I am in Costa Rica, so do not tell me it is cheaper in Walgreens or whereever).
For a completely different reason I got an NSLU2 (cheap NAS storage box from Linksys), then put Linux on it, because I needed a low powered always on Asterisk. But hey, you can attach a USB hub to it (if you run Linux), and so I did, and started trying connecting devices.
I was also annoyed, that even though my windows machine was always on, from time to time my wife's printings failed from her MAC. Not really windows' problem, but naturally she always wants to print when I overload the machine, reboot it, or play a game that eats all the resources up.
So I started using the NSLU2 as a print server, after discovering, that there was a print server package for it (actually there is Samba, Cups and p910d ).
Yesterday my printer refused to print, and the ink button/light went on, (of course it occurs when I want to print something before leaving quickly). So I just went to Office depot and bought 1 of each cartridge ($60 for the 4, DAMN
Now when I came back I started checking which cartridge could be empty. Since I use a remote port, the ink monitoring software does not work. But also because of this, you can just ignore the lights, restart the printer, and keep printing.
Before, the epson software prohibited printing, now it cannot monitor the ink, so there is no restriction. Downside: no ink monitor, but remembering, that it is the tool that makes you throw out cartridges half full, I do not want it.
Also I only print B&W, so I really do not care if the Yellow is out.
Just my 2c.
Note: of course only tested this on the NSLU, but should be the same on any Linux, or maybe macs. Just try it with a print server first, maybe it is the same.
I worked on an HP account for almost 6 months (too long heh). HP, as a company, were great, they'll go to amazing lengths for the customer. However, because of that experience, I have not (since then) and will not support or recommend any liquid ink printer, no matter who the manufacturer is. Mark-up like you would NOT believe on those cartridges. It was explained to me something like this: If you have a barrel of oh, let's say INK, and you ship it across the border, that barrel of ink has a tariff applied to it. If you ship it back again, there's another tariff. Ship it across again, yet another tariff (aka markup on top of markup). Now, if that barrel of ink cost only pennies to begin with...and winds up costing hundreds...uh...hello...we're getting FLEECED here... The only time I'd ever recommend an inkjet is when the person or company is in a remote area, and absolutely requires the convenience. colour lasers are becoming affordable if colour is required. Heck even solid-ink printers are coming down now, and produce fantastic photos, AND the ink doesn't dry up or expire (HP had cartridges that could read the time and date from the connected computer, and would expire after 6 months I believe, regardless how much ink was remaining...not sure if they're still on the market). For Grandma, get her to take those digital pics to London Drugs or Costco, pretty well any place that develops film will take your CD of JPG's and print them on photo quality paper, with much higher quality materials than most consumer stuff, and for WAY cheaper than you can do it at home. It's just better economics. It's often cheaper to buy a new printer, with warranty and ink, than it is to replace every cartridge in that same printer. After going through 5 printers this way - I've given up. I will simply NOT support that economy anymore. Pissing money away just isn't my thing. But hey, I'm an oddball. With eyes wide open.
laser printers are far more cost effective than any inkjet. Even color lasers are coming down in price. Unless you do a lot of printing the cartridges will last a while.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Here's the one I own (in my print business):
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=180&modelid=15835
There also are smaller commercial-grade inkjets than this one, usually for up to "A3" (DIN) sizes (roughly 2xletter) with color management tools, mostly for media design businesses that want to print a color proof using color profiles of their offset print publishers to get a simulation of the final output before giving it to them for printing. Or, for anyone who wants to print very good photos up to A3 size and is unwilling to wait for a service provider or to rely on their color management - because often photo printers who serve the mass market have no or no good color management, knowing their customers don't have it or even know what this is anyway.
Bad news for HP and Staples. I mean seriously, the law has been around for 117 years!
15 U.S.C.A.
Title 15. Commerce and Trade
Section 1
Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal. Every person who shall make any contract or engage in any combination or conspiracy hereby declared to be illegal shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding $100,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $1,000,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding 10 years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court.
Section 2
Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding $100,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $1,000,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding 10 years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court.
...You _could_ be damaging your printer by doing this.
:P
:/
Full disclosure : I work for Staples (albeit an overseas division, not the USA/Corperate). Hence the reason I'm not logged in - I don't want this causing me problems at work. That said, I'm probably not high enough level for that anyway.
Inkjet printers (mostly) stop working when a cartridge is empty or near empty to stop air getting into the lines and heads. If air gets into them, remnants can dry up inside, effectively blocking the machine on that colour stream. The problem is more likely to occur on newer machines - the reason bieng that the higher resolutions available today require narrower heads that are easier to block.
The problem from the manufacturers point of view is that a customer won't care _why_ their printer has 'broken', they'll just care that it has. Result? Manufacturers rely on technological measures to try and prevent the end-user from damaging the machine in the first place.
This is also the reason that a machine will run a cleaning cycle every two or three days of it's own accord. People complain that it wastes ink - but it's the machine trying to protect itself.
Best advice I can give you if you're looking at printers is to consider your needs. Unless you're printing photos, or onto specialist papers regularly enough to an warrant an inkjet, a laser is almost always a better alternative in the long term. A laser based machine cannot print to textured paper (it will scar the imaging drums and leave marks/lines in subsequent prints), and you need to be careful when buying photo paper - inkjet papers normally aren't heat treated, and will collapse when they go through a laser printers fuser.
That said, laser printers are cheaper to run, lower maintenance (paper dust doesn't screw them up as badly), quieter, faster, and dont give bleedthrough on the cheap papers (ie, better prints).
If you have to stick with an inkjet, don't buy cheap because the cheap ones are always subsidised on the inks. Certain manufacturers don't chip the cartridges (allowing you to use refills without having to modify the firmware or software environment), and Brother go so far as to tell you how to refill their cartridges in the manual.
Integrated heads (Epson, Brother, Canon, and some newer HP printers) won't require recalibration when you change cartridges, and are less likely to give banding artifacts, but normally require a techician to replace if they go bad or reach the end of their service life.
Replaceable heads (Most Hp printers, Lexmark, and Canon (they have integrated heads that can be user-replaced when they wear out)) require calibration on change, and are generally less suited to high-quality photo prints and the likes, but if you're printing to very rough papers, or in high dust environments, or very infrequently, will be a lot less hassle than the integrated solutions.
Basically, use your head and you'll be fine.
Wow that was long.
this instance of Collusion is slowly ending...
...but in the meantime, they've made their money. In essence, the Lone Ranger rides in after the girl has already been run over by the train, and then chases down Snidely Whiplash (I'm blending kids' TV, so sue me) and tells him not to do that again or it might cost him. Markets work best where there is transparency, and this type of collusion is a blatant deception to the customer. As the parties involved have no incentive for competition, these types of deals will continue. Why argue over bread crumbs when we all can have a loaf?
Collusion is a VERY big deal, though maybe you don't think it affects you (though it does). Collusion is what allowed Enron to happen. If you allow it to go unpunished, it spreads. Why are CDs still so expensive after 20+ years? The media costs next to nothing, there's minimal problems with breakage, and shrinkage protection is substantially better due to inexpensive technology. Either we have collusion, or an example of the market taking an exceptionally long time to fix the problem. (Has it?)
Maybe it's not your life that's affected; you may have a decent paying job, but it does affect those at the bottom. In this case, it's printer ink, which is a small enough expense for most people. Imagine, however, if it was like this for everything. Imagine all the grocery stores in town decided to set minimum prices, and then used their influence on the zoning board to prevent other grocers from opening. Eventually the monopoly would probably be broken, but in the meantime, you've paid the price, and you will never get that money back from the market.
If you lose 15% of your retirement because one of the companies in your portfolio colluded with an auditor to pump up their stock by hiding losses and then got caught, the market will not give you a do-over. Many free market believers will mock your judgement, saying that you should have known; the purpose of collusion, however, is to keep you from knowing, and there is a reason that these types of business relationships are not publicized by the corporations involved. The market rewards profit, and bad behavior, if concealed well enough, is profitable.
Before this gets tagged "pinko commie bastard" I am simply saying that it is important to have regulated markets that operate in a transparent function because the market rewards what is profitable, not what is right. Sometimes, they work together, but sometimes they don't. Regulations lets investors have some security in knowing that they are not being fleeced; confidence is a pretty important thing to markets. We have rules for how large corporations can operate, and with very good reason, because there are certain things that the market does not sort out quickly enough for justice, and history is full of examples of these "minor road bumps in the market". If you're lucky they don't affect you, but there's plenty of people who they do affect.
I tend to stick my printers on a USB print server, all systems using it as TCP and one using it as remote USB to manage it occasionally (presently using a Hp Officejet Pro K550).
I liked the Canon 4500 (I think it's called Pixma or something) because it can also print CDs, but when I checked Linux compatibility it was poor. So I decided not to buy it.
HP support for Linux is very good, and until Canon gets a clue in the direction I'm afraid HP wins the deal - I use mostly Linux, a bit of Windows and I plan to buy a Macbook next year as well. There is no way I'll buy a printer that isn't properly supported under Linux..
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