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Google Reader Begins Sharing Private Data

Felipe Hoffa writes "One week ago Google Reader's team decided to begin showing your private data to all your GMail contacts. No need to opt-in, no way to opt-out. Complaints haven't been answered. Some users share their problems, including one family who says they won't be able to enjoy this Christmas because of this 'feature.' Will Google start doing this with all their products? You can check a summary of complaints in my journal here or browse the whole thread in Google Groups."

313 comments

  1. Tempest in a Teapot by X · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm sorry, but I'm with Google on this one. I was using Reader for a while after it was activated before I noticed it. It shares exactly what I expect with exactly who I expect. I've been using it for about a week now and I haven't felt like there was any violation of privacy.

    --
    sigs are a waste of space
    1. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by jmccay · · Score: 2, Interesting

      FUD? Really? Seriously, this does point out a drawback with using online applications. You are trusting your data to a foreign entity that may not even reside in the country. Then you can split hairs by having the company in the country and the servers in a different country that has laws more to their liking. Nothing is to stop the company from publishing your data. If I were someone important, like a politician, I would not use yahoo or google email. To dangerous. I will stick to my plain old desktop readers thank you. I know where that data is stored and usually I can control the updates.

      --
      At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
    2. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by X · · Score: 4, Informative

      Dude, it is only sharing articles that you clicked on the "share" icon for, and only with your contacts. If you never click on the share icon, nobody sees anything.

      This isn't one of those international conglomerate conspiracy theories.

      --
      sigs are a waste of space
    3. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But he brings up a valid point. When ever you trust something to the whims of someone else, expect them to be the keeper of it, not you. There were plenty of people who shared with a few people under the assumption that only a few people saw it. When others in the contact list started seeing it, it created problems for them. Why? Because google at their whim change how something worked and people had the ability to access something though you that you didn't count on.

      And this goes with on line documents or anything. If they change the policy because of whatever and catch you off guard, your shit out of luck. BTW, if you were a closet homo, would you want you mom and dad to see that you were sharing Gay Marriage articles with your lovers? I mean this as minor as you might think, reaches far beyond simple arguments about who cares. It goes to exemplify why you shouldn't trust anything to another person or company that can make a number of changes without notifying you.

    4. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Danathar · · Score: 1

      Oh pulleeze. Nobody is forcing anybody to use google. When you choose a "service" run by somebody else you accept the risks involved. If you are concerned that it might change then don't use it. Build your own email server and everything else you want at home and stop whining.

      It's getting harder and harder to evaluate LEGITIMATE issues with google from the people that just like to complain because they are happy when they are complaining about something thats popular.

    5. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what everyone says, until uncle google adds another 'feature', and then another, and then another. Slowly, but surely, uncle google is all knowing and all seeing.

      Now be a good consumer and write your journal in google, so big brother can analyze your thought patterns.

      Google, it's double plus good!

    6. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh pulleeze. Nobody is forcing anybody to use google. When you choose a "service" run by somebody else you accept the risks involved. If you are concerned that it might change then don't use it. Build your own email server and everything else you want at home and stop whining.
      That is exactly the point. You cannot trust the other guy. You need to do it yourself. And it isn't that people are forced into using Google, it is that they were charmed into a false sense of security.

      It's getting harder and harder to evaluate LEGITIMATE issues with google from the people that just like to complain because they are happy when they are complaining about something thats popular.
      I wouldn't consider this a legitimate issue, I would think it was more of an annoyance. But it is still an issue because people do things they don't want others to know about. And when there was an expectation of privacy, even if it was minor, when that expectation gets removes, there needs to be adequate notice given and a means to get out. Even if it means not sharing anything at all.
    7. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      Then use your own RSS feed aggregator, with cookies disabled, through tor, through privoxy, using a hacked wireless connection, on an OpenBSD machine, in your faraday cage in your wooden shack.

      It's good to err on the side of paranoia when it comes to privacy, but when talking about Google things can get really over the top.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    8. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are concerned that it might change then don't use it

      Holy shit!!1! gravity might change! I better hide under my bed for the rest of my life!!1

      In the real world, most people manage to go through life without the kind of paranoia you're trying to infect everyone with. This would be much easier if everyone else played along with the reasonable expectations of people. (Here's a question: Is it that unreasonable for Alice to expect that the application function that Alice uses to share an item with Bob would share an item with Bob? Or better yet, just what problem is Google trying to solve with this solution?)

      As far as I can tell, the only reason Google is doing this is to force people to sign up for multiple accounts so that they can have a friends only account, a corporate account, a family account and so on, much like myspace and the rest of the "social networks".

    9. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by anilg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To add to that.. and to explain this issue better you need to see when and how the features were added.

      The 'sharing' feature was added earlier. It gave you a unique url that was a feed to your favorite items. It was 'public' but only you knew and could share that url to others. In a way that gave you privacy as you chose who saw things and who didn't. Google's own documentation said as much.

      Then came the Gtalk integration and suddenly everyone in your contact list is being subscribed to your 'private' feed. This is probably a small annoyance, but is still a breach of privacy.

      An exaggerated analogy, in slashdot terms.. /. gives you a unique url that can login automatically for you.. and /. FAQ says this is 'very insecure' but 'very convenient'. Since only you know this url, only you can login. Now imagine if /. went around broadcasting this url to all you friends..

      Google, IMHO, made a mistake. Don't blame malice when stupidity was the culprit. Now their 'ego' wont allow them to revert and that is sad.

      --
      http://dilemma.gulecha.org - My philospohical short film.
    10. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Speaking of stupidity, I find it difficult to feel sorry for anyone who assumed an open website would be protected against prying eyes simply because the URL wasn't published. If their documents were really that sensitive maybe they shouldn't have put them somewhere anyone with a web-browser could view.

      Waa waa. You're a moron. Congrats. Now your parents know you're into midgets fucking ponies.

    11. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One week ago Google Reader's team decided to begin showing your private data to all your GMail contacts. And when we say "private data," we mean data that you told Google to share with others. No need to opt-in, all you need to do is tell Google to share this with others. No way to opt-out, other than removing it from your shared data. Complaints haven't been answered, because Google engineers are still amazed that someone would complain about this. Some users share their problems, and then immediately claim that these problems were private data not meant to be shared. Including one family who says they won't be able to enjoy this Christmas because of this 'feature,' because they all "purchased" each other a copy of Google Reader and hoped none of the others would realize that Google gave it to you for free. Will Google start doing this with all their products? Will their user interfaces actually do what you instruct, or will they follow industry best practice of asking you to "Confirm or Deny" every choice five times.

    12. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Seumas · · Score: 1

      I was worried, until I read that the issue is "Google let's people who want to see your shared items, see your shared items, which are shared by clicking on the share button for that item".

      I mean, what is the issue here? This is like complaining that "when you don't click 'private' on del.icio.us bookmarks as you add them, then people can see them!".

      In my business, we classify this concern as "WORKS AS DESIGNED".

      Next!

    13. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Just because you aren't being forced to use a service doesn't mean you should accept any violation of your privacy or the goodwill use of your data.

      If we're going to have laws protecting the identity and data of people under 13, why not everyone over 13, too? Why should there not be some obligation to protect my identity, privacy and collection of data? Not an obligation built around "well, if we don't do it we might piss people off", but based on the same legal constraints that protect our credit card data, social security data and medical information?

      I'm not for over legislation of the internet as it should remain a free frontier for communication, innovation and ideas. Protecting people's expectation of privacy for certain information and data gathering does not stifle any of that.

    14. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      buttsniffer

    15. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the situation isn't a matter of I expect privacy as much as privacy was offered and accepted by a few.

      It is a different story when your expecting some privacy because the provider told you the conductions would allow privacy to the extent you where willing to accept. This isn't some paranoid tinfoil hat wearing situation. It is a You expect A and all the sudden your getting B situation. Where A is your privacy to some great extent.

      Do no evil turned into a fubar capable of changing someone's life. It this is a joke to you, then I am sorry about the state of Google and life in general. We shouldn't have to bury ourselves in a state of confusion just to get what we expect because of a company's representations.

    16. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Chrisje · · Score: 1

      All these people that are bitching and moaning about these "services" on "duh innernet" would be very wise to remember two things:

      1) Never look a gift-horse in the mouth.
      2) TANSTAAFL.

      If you want more control, you're going to have to pay. I pay 6 Euro's a month for web hosting / e-mail / domain registration and I've never been bothered to read RSS feeds. Having said that, I control my data. Anything that I even deem to sensitive for having on my hosted server is either on my local hard disk or I simply do not keep it at all. I don't have "business contacts" in my private mail sphere either. I have a business mail address for that. Which is also not "Free".

      Furthermore, with regards to that woman who posted the "boo-hoo, xmas broke down because of a political disagreement with mah brother" story... I have no words for that. If your collective conflict resolution skills are that poor, I'm not sure I would like to be in (or near) that family in the first place.

      Once I explained to my mother, a Christian woman who is steadfast in her principals, why the stories of Job, Sodom and Gomorrah and the exodus from Egypt were proof to me that if God were to exist, (s)he would be the moral peer of Adolf Hitler. She disagreed and asked me if I wanted another cup of coffee. My point is this... Just because views differ doesn't mean you can't coexist as adults.

      Then again, I would expect juveniles that don't to look gift horses in the mouth and expect Free Lunches (TM).

      In other news: Some schmuck got awarded 7 mio dollars, payable by the city of New York for having slipped in a pile of pigeon-poo which he had seen before stepping in it anyway. Just goes to show that all of y'all are a bit funny in the head.

    17. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by tedrlord · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is a problem, and it's simple and obvious if you look at it. Previously, you shared items, and your friends who knew the page could follow along. Now, you share items, and everyone who chat with or email you have that list right in front of them. Sure, your boss or mother in law could have previously searched around a while and probably found your shared list, but that violates social boundaries on their part, and you have reason to take issue with them for tracking your personal information online.

      Now, if they use Reader, they have a list right in front of them of all your interests, just like you have a list in front of you of theirs. If you're into BDSM, new earth creationism, or even (god help me) square dance, it takes a click for them to find out. If that was the original intent of the service, then it's your own damn fault, but beforehand Google put some effort into making it non-obvious to find your page if you didn't know where to look. You didn't have full security, but at least you had the "Why the hell were you tracking down all my personal information at 2am last night, you weirdo?" defense if they went that far.

      At first, I figured that Google entering into the social networking market was going to be a big move in their favor, and that they'd blow away the competition, but something like this makes me think that the "social" part is probably beyond their reach. I guess that's what you get when all their technology is designed by 20-somethings that live under their desks at the Googleplex.

      (An aside, I live within walking distance from Google, and when you go to the Safeway on Shoreline you can actually pick out all the Google-types. Skinny young guys traveling in twos or threes, talking slightly quietly and huddled together. The fact that more often than not they're wearing Google t-shirts helps.)

      --
      [insert witty quote here]
    18. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Dailao · · Score: 1
      Funny how when Microsoft pulls a stunt like this, everyone is at their throat. But if Google does it, it seems to be ok or not that bad.

      Did you ever consider that I might want to share an article with those two guys, but not with the other two, and certainly not with the rest of my 50 friend profiles ?

      Or did you consider that I might have a LOT shared with one guy for business reasons (so removing the shared data is not an option), yet also have profiles of competitors on my list (removing not an option either) that I certainly DON'T want to share the stuff with ?

      I mean, I don't even use that stuff (I distrust Google since they started getting bigger) and I can see a mile away that this feature is crap.

      share with someone != share with everybody
    19. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by SixArmedJesus · · Score: 1

      If your collective conflict resolution skills are that poor, I'm not sure I would like to be in (or near) that family in the first place.

      Well, here's the thing about that. Just because someone may or may not have great conflict resolution skills, it doesn't mean that they want to egg on that conflict in the first place. Not everyone wants to sit around and argue political points at the dinner table because they all have great conflict resolution skills. Granted some people start arguments for the hell of it, but there are a lot that would prefer to skip it altogether, if possible. Maybe some people have contacts in their GMail that are more argumentative than others that are now having to deal with conflicts with those people rather than just avoid it because it's not something that concerns them in the first place.

      --

      *slight crashing sound*
    20. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by nevali · · Score: 1

      That's fair enough, but Google is the biggest and most powerful search engine in the world: what do people use to find things that have been "hidden" by secret URLs (but no authentication) that haven't ever intentionally been published? Google, that's what.

      People have used Google to find stuff hidden this way for years, and anybody who's not a complete newbie (which isn't exactly Google Reader's demographic, after all) knows the folly of attempting to hide stuff behind secret URLs as a result. Then Google publishes feed items you've "shared" by way of a secret URL, and people wonder why it ends up non-private.

      Now, admittedly, Google didn't bother with waiting for people to find out what the URLs are on their own (not really much point to it; Reader doesn't support authenticated RSS feeds, so the items themselves are public in the first place), and goes ahead and shares them directly with your contact list. Yes, it's a bit naughty of them--there should be a preference for it, and a "You've just logged in for the first time since we added this feature" message, but it's not sharing private items, because they weren't ever private to begin with, they were just obscured.

    21. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Relationships are built on trust. Trust requires honesty. If you're hiding things from the people you're trying to have relationships with, your relationships likely suck. Try being open and honest and not having things to hide. It's refreshing.

    22. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by anilg · · Score: 1

      ..and anybody who's not a complete newbie (which isn't exactly Google Reader's demographic, after all).. Thats the whole point of contention actually.. reader is very newbie friendly and is probably used by them. All of your argument falls when you see that they were first told by google that the URL distribution is completely in their power and the users used it as such. Then suddenly, google makes it public.. without warning, without opt-out.

      FWIW, I'm otherwise a happy user of GReader..
      --
      http://dilemma.gulecha.org - My philospohical short film.
    23. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by ptolomei · · Score: 1

      don't share if you dont want to and use star/favorite/bookmark feature to mark your favorite feed. I love this feature!

    24. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by jaavaaguru · · Score: 1

      Seriously, this does point out a drawback with using online applications. You are trusting your data to a foreign entity that may not even reside in the country.


      If you required this article to point that out to you, hand over your geek passport now.
    25. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try being open and honest and not having things to hide. It's refreshing. Thanks, AC.

      Posting AC because, actually, no. That what people think is not identical to what people say - no matter what the relationship - is one of the most fundamental aspects of human psychology. It differentiates us from lower order mammals, who usually make their intentions very clear with body language / scent / etc readable by other members of the species.

      You can pretend that the "ideal human relationship" involves a mother and his gay son living in each other's minds in open bliss, but you'd have to invent a new species first.
    26. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny how when Microsoft pulls a stunt like this, everyone is at their throat. But if Google does it, it seems to be ok or not that bad.
      Ahh, lovely straw men like this is why I still read Slashdot comments. Thanks for the laugh pal, you've made my Christmas.

      Seriously, why do people believe crazy things like this? Here we are in the middle of a thread full of people whining about what Google's done, and yet Dailao is able to believe that the consensus is firmly on Google's side. Truly bizarre.
    27. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      BTW, if you were a closet homo, would you want you mom and dad to see that you were sharing Gay Marriage articles with your lovers?


      I'd be more worried about my lovers finding out I was sharing gay marriage articles with someone else.

    28. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      The crowning level of the stupidity is that, if you want to point others to a URL, you can always navigate to it, copy, and paste the URL into a appropriate medium, be it email, or a hardcopy document you physically hand to someone.
      The fact that people's diapers fill so quickly when convenience breeds perceived decreases in privacy remains fascinating.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    29. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by nevali · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find that most newbies don't actually know that Google does anything other that search--and mail at a stretch--let alone that there's this thing called feeds and that they're useful and that Google has a free service that lets them keep up to date with them. This is the same (rather enormous) class of people who type URLs into Google because they don't realise that's what the URL field in the browser is for.

      Mind you, it depends on what you class as a newbie, I suppose, but people who read feeds (via Google Reader or otherwise) would ordinarily be considered well out of "newbie" territory.

    30. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Either this summary is highly misleading, or I completely misunderstand the feature in question. The feature is a news (RSS) reader with a "share" button... Google shows articles you "share" to all your Gmail contacts.

      In what way is "shared" RSS articles "private information?" Moreover, in what way is ANY RSS feed "private information?" They're all publically-available, that's kind of the point of RSS.

      So does this headline boil down to: "Information you told Google to share actually got shared; retards complain?"

    31. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you shouldn't expect so much.

      The thing that I can't get over is that this was already public information. If I found your public feed and sent it to your friends and family, while you might be mad at me, no one would claim that it was a privacy violation.

      The only problem here is with bad software design. Generally speaking, features not essential to the operation of the software should be toggleable. "No, Google, I don't want to spam my friends with my latest shared feeds."

    32. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Sancho · · Score: 1

      It's a public page. In this case, share with someone = everyone in the world being able to see it. If you want to share it with just a few people, e-mail them the link to the damned item.

    33. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You know, I agree. But this wasn't as much of a privacy breach as it was a trust issue. I already don't trust others to do what I know to do so it isn't a big issue to me. But it remains an issue that needs addresses.

    34. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by sumdumass · · Score: 1
      I agree with having to pay for it. But there are some issues of representation that come into play. If your hosting company that you pay 6 Euro's a month for, all the sudden decided to mine your emails and sell that information to some ad company that would inject targeted ads in your correspondence or web pages, you would be upset too. Especially if those ads were from competitors. It might not even be a privacy issue as much as not what was represented to you when you took the service on. And they might say well, we made some changes and our 6 Euro a month plan has this now. You need the 24 Euro/month plan to avoid it. Of course you would probably do the 24/month thing or find another provider, but what about all the business going to your competitors and the damage done when all the sudden your clients think you are part of the company they left to be with you over. If there was no notice, not opt in or out, that could be a reality.

      Furthermore, with regards to that woman who posted the "boo-hoo, xmas broke down because of a political disagreement with mah brother" story... I have no words for that. If your collective conflict resolution skills are that poor, I'm not sure I would like to be in (or near) that family in the first place.
      Well, there is a little more to it then that. I agree they don't know how to get along but you have to look at it from their side. The one person thought that the stuff was being sent specifically to him intentionally by his sister (whoever). That caused the response that shouldn't have happened had they known this was something automatic and that they had no control over it.

      This changes it from a situation where you sat down with someone and stated your position. The initial reaction was probably not the best but the second reaction went in with the idea that he would have had to access someone's feed that was able see the stuff. Both sides saw some unannounced change as a personal attack that actually turned into a personal attack. And it appears that all the damage was done before it was known that malice wasn't present in the initial cause.

      In your scenario where you told your mom your beliefs about God and Hitler, She knew you weren't attempting to bash her for something she believed in. Now imagine how that would have played out if all the sudden she started seeing atheist rants about how god sucks, how anyone who believe in God is a fucking moron, everything you believe in is a lie and so on. Now imagine if this all came from you without your knowledge. Do you think she would ask you if you want some tea? Or would she talk to someone else in the family and possibly have it blown up before you got a chance to respond or even notice what was happening?

      I do think that the Christmas thing is inflated for effect though. It doesn't have to ruin anything.

      Then again, I would expect juveniles that don't to look gift horses in the mouth and expect Free Lunches (TM).

      In other news: Some schmuck got awarded 7 mio dollars, payable by the city of New York for having slipped in a pile of pigeon-poo which he had seen before stepping in it anyway. Just goes to show that all of y'all are a bit funny in the head.
      I'm right back with ya here. I don't disagree at all.
    35. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by reynmike · · Score: 1

      Agreed. To the original author, what about "Sharing" don't you understand? Google Reader clearly asks you what you want to Share. There's even a public RSS feed that is generated, so it's no big deal that your Gmail or GTalk friends can see it. Everyone can see it!

    36. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by symbolic · · Score: 1

      This same kind of thing happened with HushMail recently. They changed their process to make it more convenient for users, but failed to adequately notify them of the potential consequences. The motto should always be TRUST NO ONE. Companies can always change their policies, or sell some interest to another party with a completely different agenda. Then you could very well be screwed.

    37. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Sure. I totally agree.

      and about your sig, That's an interesting flick. I showed it to my banker and she was wanting to dispute it but in the end confirmed the majority of what it said. It makes you want to start a bank.

    38. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by symbolic · · Score: 1

      Saddest thing is that a significant part of the cost of money (interest) has been going into the pockets of a VERY small number of people...but for what? It's the most pervasive and long-lived pyramid scheme in the history of the modern world. The Federal Reserve is nothing more than a contemporary version of a troll on a bridge, extracting money in exchange for economic participation.

    39. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by parislemon · · Score: 1

      True enough on that point, but as I wrote about last week this still shows a complete and utter failure in meshing Google's contact management system with their newly implemented social features. Many of my contacts are not only not my friends, but people I'd rather not have on my contact list as they are only there after exchanging nasty emails with. Google definitely needs to rethink this.

      http://www.parislemon.com/2007/12/your-google-friends-may-or-may-not-be.html

    40. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      If you are concerned that it might change then don't use it. Build your own email server and everything else you want at home and stop whining. That's pretty much what got me interested into programming in the first place, because I want applications to do what I want them to do. Unfortunately most people don't know how to program, don't have the time, or don't have the aptitude. Also, most people are "sheeple" (as they say here)... and naively Trust large corporations to be responsible. People use the services of companies because these companies have some expertise that would be impractical for most people to obtain. And BTW, PRIVACY has been a major issue with the Internet and Internet services for quite some time (for those of us cognizant of the issue)... but often (tech-aware) people like you just call me paranoid before the worst comes to light.

      stop whining I didn't hear anybody whining but you.

      It's getting harder and harder to evaluate LEGITIMATE issues with google You use the word "LEGITIMATE" as if you understand what it means, but by doing so you sound both arrogant and ignorant (and Trollish as well).

    41. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      Relationships are built on trust. Trust requires honesty. If you're hiding things from the people you're trying to have relationships with, your relationships likely suck. Try being open and honest and not having things to hide. It's refreshing. I doubt whether the people who run Google really care. There may be some amount of Trust that is imposed on them through the Law or business economics, otherwise it's just empty rhetoric.

      Unfortunately people don't have the choice in choosing their parents or relatives. Much the same with the people you may have to work with. So no, relationships are not built on Trust, as your fantasy world presumes.
    42. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by skiman1979 · · Score: 1

      Of course if you were a politician, or a military commander, or a corporate CEO, or a secretary, janitor... or any user wanting to share information publicly, you wouldn't use a public email/reader service. I certainly wouldn't add my coworkers to my gmail contact list and then post articles publicly about our internal projects. That's what corporate email is for. If you want to share a "funny" email with a select group of friends, and hide it from others because they might be offended, isn't that what forwards are for? So far, I don't see much wrong with this feature. If you want to mark something as shared, it makes sense that it would be shared with everyone, at least everyone that you keep in contact with. Perhaps the one thing Google should do is remove the feature that automatically adds people that you email (or ones that email you) to your contact list. That way people don't have access to your public shares just because they sent you a spam email. Which, btw, don't you have to respond to them for them to be actually added?

      --
      Having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool.
    43. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by Wolfger · · Score: 1

      Yes. FUD. Really.
      Google Reader is only sharing items you specifically tell it to share, by clicking on a share icon, which Google Reader explicitly tells you makes the item publicly accessible.

      People complaining that they only want to share with certain people are lazy morons. The "Email" icon is directly to the right of the "Share" icon, and will allow them to do exactly what they want, which is to share an item with some friends, but not with everybody. If you don't want to share with the entire world, then the only reason to click on the "Share" icon is sheer laziness. "Oh, typing (a portion of) somebody's e-mail address is too much work!"

    44. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by jmccay · · Score: 1

      Nope. I didn't need that article to point it out, but there are people out there that did. Which is why I said it. They get lost in the euphoria of the latest thing without thinking about who is controlling the data. The shock and "outrage" about what Google did proves this point. There will always be someone who gets lost in the euphoric experience of the latest thing without caring about stuff like who controls your data. You know the "small details".

      --
      At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
    45. Re:Tempest in a Teapot by kalirion · · Score: 1

      You mean like if MSN Messenger suddenly started showing your IE Favorites to all your Windows Live contacts? I mean Favorites is just URLs, anyone can surf to them. Right?

  2. Ok right.... by Phil246 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ive just had a quick check.
    There is a shared items area in my google reader, however none of my feeds are listed in there.

    that is to say - they are not shared by default.
    Granted, the feature is there but its hardly invading my privacy without me having a say in what can and cannot be displayed - and by default for me nothing is.
    1. Re:Ok right.... by ironfrost · · Score: 5, Informative

      The summary is somewhat misleading - what people are complaining about is that items in the 'shared items' area are now shared with all your gmail contacts (which automatically includes anyone with a gmail account that you have sent an email to), rather than having to manually add contacts as before.

    2. Re:Ok right.... by JPriest · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And this would be fine if the feature was always this way, but if they are going to change the behavior of the feature to be public to anyone you have had contact with, they should at least give you some warning about it in advance.

      --
      Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
    3. Re:Ok right.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is that stupid fucking myminicity whore. No clicky.

    4. Re:Ok right.... by EvilMole · · Score: 1

      What part of "Shared" did you not previously understand?

    5. Re:Ok right.... by JPriest · · Score: 1
      It depends who you want to "share" with. You decided to "share" your house so that your girlfriend could use it, but as of right now the share permission you set on your house means all people you have communicated with now have the same access she does to it. Remember that homeless guy you emailed "No"?

      I see that your web page gives your name, bio, blog, the company you work for, your linkedin profile etc. This gives some insight on your position, but there are those of us out there that prefer to have some privacy and would prefer this be an individual choice rather than the choice of a 3rd party company. I am your basic Google fanboy, but I still believe they have an obligation to be responsible with peoples data.

      --
      Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
    6. Re:Ok right.... by ceedee99uk · · Score: 1

      From what I can see, RSS items you've shared via Google Reader are actually only accessible to GTalk or GChat contacts and NOT your 'regular' Gmail contacts.
      (And of course, the unwitting recipient needs to be using GReader themselves to be able to see it.)

      Get over it folks: if you want to limit the items you share, then get a blog and only invite friends with whom you're happy to 'sacrifice' your privacy!

    7. Re:Ok right.... by Sancho · · Score: 1

      But Google never said that sharing was limited to one person. In the real world, we can do things like that. On the Internet, it should be obvious that if there isn't an explicit way to limit access to a resource (through the use of a password, for example) then that resource isn't restricted.

    8. Re:Ok right.... by makomk · · Score: 1

      The thing is, that by default at least, whenever you e-mail somebody they're added to both your Gmail contacts and your Google Talk contacts. In fact, I'm not sure if there are even seperate contact lists for both. Possibly, both people need to be on each others' contacts lists for it to work, though.

    9. Re:Ok right.... by skiman1979 · · Score: 1

      As far as I'm concerned, it would seem this feature works as expected. If I want to share an interesting article with everyone publicly, I can "share" it. If I want to share it specifically with a group of people, I can forward it to them specifically.

      --
      Having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool.
  3. I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One week ago Google Reader's team decided to begin showing your private data to all your GMail contacts.
    I never "got" why people fell all over themselves about GMail and getting a GMail account. I've kept my own domain and use it for e-mail. Should my mail provider do something I don't like, I'd move my mail to another provider and update my MX record. (FYI: my mail provider, registrar, and ISP are 3 different companies.)
    --
    If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    1. Re:I never "got" GMail by MrAnnoyanceToYou · · Score: 1, Informative

      Because Google is the best company there has ever been at Internet marketing. It's just that simple.

    2. Re:I never "got" GMail by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I never "got" why people fell all over themselves about GMail and getting a GMail account. AJAX makes gmail easily one of the best user interfaces as far as webmail goes. Unlimited space, for all intents and purposes as an e-mail account goes. Free POP (and now IMAP) access. Solid spam filtering. The webmail interface is entirely searchable using Google's fast and easy search engine technology.

      In short, it's everything free e-mail providers like Yahoo and Hotmail promised, but never delivered on.
    3. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never "got" why people fell all over themselves about GMail and getting a GMail account. I've kept my own domain and use it for e-mail.

      So do I, but that's no barrier to understanding that most people don't have their own domain. The web hasn't been just geeks for a long time now.

      What GMail is is what Hotmail was: free email service that not locked to your temporary local provider or school. Hotmail got bought by Microsoft and became crap. GMail got it right, and was big enough to be as long-term as we can expect any company to be, and to be instantly recognizable & thus memorable when you say "email me at "joe6pack@gmail.com" - little or no writing down necessary. Quite unlike my domain, which requires me to hand out business cards to gloss over the conversational incovenience of spelling out a long addy.

      Which is all fricking obvious and I think you're just trolling to build up your juvenile sense of worth. But in case you really were curious, that's what it was about, and all there is to get.
    4. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Google is the best company there has ever been at Internet marketing.


      And that has... what to do exactly with GMail?


      1) Google makes GMail. (known)
      2) Google markets GMail. (from 1)
      3) Google markets things well. (given)
      4) GMail is marketed well. (2+3)

      Those inferences were pretty much direct.
    5. Re:I never "got" GMail by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      And what does this have to Google Reader exactly?

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    6. Re:I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 0, Troll

      AJAX makes gmail easily one of the best user interfaces as far as webmail goes.
      So it's got a slick UI. BFD. But even you qualified your own statement. I have an equally nice UI using the same IMAP client I've been using since before GMail existed. I don't "get" why anyone would give up desktop clients for webmail.

      Solid spam filtering.
      My IMAP client aslo has solid spam filtering.

      The webmail interface is entirely searchable using Google's fast and easy search engine technology.
      My IMAP client, while it may not offer Google's exact flavor of search technology, does a perfectly fine job of searching my mail. (Indexing and searching text isn't rocket science.)

      In short, it's everything free e-mail providers like Yahoo and Hotmail promised, but never delivered on.
      Well, OK: if you were using webmail before GMail, I can see why you'd switch to GMail. But to me, that still begs the question of: why were you using webmail in the first place?
      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    7. Re:I never "got" GMail by Schlemphfer · · Score: 2, Interesting
      >I never "got" why people fell all over themselves about GMail and getting a GMail account.

      Maybe you don't know how terrific GMail's feature set now is. It has been steadily improving, and some recent additions give it compelling advantages over your current setup.

      You said you own your own domain that you use for your email account. Did you know that you can now forward all your email to Gmail, enjoy the benefits of a superb spam filter, and then use either Gmail's excellent web interface or an IMAP client? Did you know that you can now use Google to have your default return address be your custom domain name, so nobody even knows your using GMail? Did you know that GMail offers unlimited filters, so that every time some clown decides to add you to his BCC "Ron Paul 2008" list, you can click the filter button and never, ever hear from him again?

      All of this is free. Like you I have my own domain -- but Gmail's excellent suite of services is too useful to miss out on.

      --
      I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
    8. Re:I never "got" GMail by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 1

      I've kept my own domain and use it for e-mail.


      good luck if for some reason your registrar has a hiccup and a squatter registers your domain... as things stand now I prefer having my email on yahoo/google than on a personal domain just for this reason.
      --
      -- the cake is a lie
    9. Re:I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      And what does this have to Google Reader exactly?
      The article summary specifically says, "... to begin showing your private data to all your GMail contacts." So if you use GMail and you have contacts (highly likely), then, according to the summary, all your private data are now visible to everybody on your GMail contact list.

      It's entirely possible that the Slashdot summary is wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    10. Re:I never "got" GMail by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      The summary was incorrect, it used your Google GTalk, or whatever it is called, contacts... not the same thing.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    11. Re:I never "got" GMail by KillerCow · · Score: 1

      I never "got" why people fell all over themselves about GMail and getting a GMail account.


      The right features (spam filtering, threaded views, storage, labels, and access from anywhere), a pleasant interface, ease of use, and it's free. I am not aware of any other mail app or service that can match GMail on all four.

      The "google is teh cool" cache also factors heavily into GMail's success.
    12. Re:I never "got" GMail by MntlChaos · · Score: 1

      Well there are multiple reasons to use webmail instead of a desktop client. One of the most convenient is that all my mail is very quickly accessible from any machine connected to the internet, without any setup of an IMAP client necessary. Also, it's search performance is actually faster than most thick clients I've used for e-mail. Finally, the freeness of the mail storage space it offers is nice.

      I used to use thunderbird to access my ISP's POP mail, but have now gone to strictly webmail for my e-mail needs. The specific reasons I switched are: search performance, mail-file management between reformatting and multiple machines, the lack of connection to an ISP for hosting, and the UI is actually nicer than any mail client I've used (this last one is a personal preference thing, though).

    13. Re:I never "got" GMail by KillerCow · · Score: 1

      Did you know that you can now use Google to have your default return address be your custom domain name, so nobody even knows your using GMail?


      Except that goolge will silently add a header to your email which contains the GMail address which it was sent from: "Sender:"

      Try sending an email to a hotmail address. It will say:
      From: sendingAddress@gmail.com on behalf of yourFromAddress@yourDomain

      It looks very unprofessional.
    14. Re:I never "got" GMail by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Well, OK: if you were using webmail before GMail, I can see why you'd switch to GMail. But to me, that still begs the question of: why were you using webmail in the first place? or IMAP. With GMail, you can have it both ways -- a webmail client and IMAP access.

      I use Thunderbird + IMAP with Gmail so that when I'm at home, I can read my mail on Thunderbird. But, when I'm away at work, I can access my GMail account over webmail.

      I get it both ways.
    15. Re:I never "got" GMail by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Labels are one of the most compelling aspects of Gmail.

      I can apply multiple labels to a single email, whereas with traditional email clients, I can merely file emails in a single mailbox, or I can make a copy in another mailbox.

      Having applied multiple labels, I can then search for the subset of emails that have a specific combination of labels. Good luck doing that with Thunderbird or any other traditional client.

      IMHO, the people who don't "get" Gmail, don't "get" the way labels work.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    16. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stupidity prevails!

    17. Re:I never "got" GMail by thebrieze · · Score: 1

      You could also use Google apps for your domain and get the best of both worlds.

    18. Re:I never "got" GMail by Daltin · · Score: 1

      Because at the time many of us we on our 25Mb Hotmail and Yahoo accounts, and bigger sounded better.

    19. Re:I never "got" GMail by JPriest · · Score: 1

      And all of that is offset by the fact that you still can't sort emails into folders.

      --
      Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
    20. Re:I never "got" GMail by MishgoDog · · Score: 1

      One word - Conversations.
      I presently have all my email go to my domain POP, my mobile phone's email address, and gmail. More and more I simply don't use my mail client (I've tried a bunch, am using Thunderbird now), and use gmail instead, and it's all down to conversations.
      Threading on these things is nowhere nearly as powerful as gmail's conversation tool (including sent mail, hiding past messages included in the email, and so on), and when you start having more than one reply each, it makes such a difference. When you have a group of friends who can email around 100+ emails in a single thread in a single day, it's impossible to live without.

      That and convenience - I check my email at work, at home, on my phone, on my laptop - yes, I could set aside a bunch of hosting space to archive all my emails and use squirrelmail and the like - but why not use gmail which is free, much slicker, and easier to use!

    21. Re:I never "got" GMail by value_added · · Score: 1

      Maybe you don't know how terrific GMail's feature set now is ...

      I'm happy that you're happy with Gmail, but it's worth pointing out that the features you've mentioned are fairly standard things many of have taken for granted for years.

      Relative to other webmail offerings, I'm sure Gmail stands head and shoulders above the rest. But webmail is still webmail. And a browser is still a browser. No amount of features or fun interface tricks are going to change those facts, or make the inherent limitations go away.

      Put another way, the rest of us don't need to or have any desire to wait for a steadily improving anything. We already have standards-based solutions that work, are transparent as they are feature complete, and I'll wager my last dollar will never be implemented in a browser, or provided via a webpage. And with respect to the subject of this article, we most definitely don't need to worry about what a third party is doing, or not doing.

    22. Re:I never "got" GMail by horatio · · Score: 1

      Well, OK: if you were using webmail before GMail, I can see why you'd switch to GMail. But to me, that still begs the question of: why were you using webmail in the first place? I understand your overall point. However, I wasn't using webmail before gmail. I hated hotmail/yahoo/etc and recognized how "generic" it was. I was using Pine, Eudora, and Thunderbird. I switched to web mail for a few reasons:

      • the slick UI (searching messages in a desktop/local client always required me to specify more parameters about the search than I wanted to) You say BFD, I say a well-designed client lets me get through my mail faster, or find an old message quickly.
      • the universal client - the web browser. Not every machine has Thunderbird installed, and even if it does, it means configuring (and keeping configured) the client.
      • No local cache means that I don't worry about checking my personal mail at work - since I use SSL to connect to gmail, and sometimes further route that link over SSH to an external system. Not
      • A local client has to be re-configured, and all the mail re-downloaded every time the system is re-built

      I like pine as a remote client, but it obviously has short-comings. Purists will try to revoke my geek card for saying that, and I spend a good part of my day in a terminal but last I used it Pine wasn't cutting it for things like attaching files (lives on a remote system) or downloading/viewing attachments (same reason). I'm getting kind of ticked with this crap Google is pulling. If I could find a web client I liked as much as their UI, I would install it on my mail host. I don't have the time, energy, or large org behind me to simply recreate their client for myself.
      --
      There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
    23. Re:I never "got" GMail by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      So it's got a slick UI. BFD. But even you qualified your own statement. I have an equally nice UI using the same IMAP client I've been using since before GMail existed.

      I think people are making the case that it's not equally nice -- that GMail is actually superior to desktop clients. I actually like IMAP, and I like being able to do my own PGP signing, but I haven't seen anyone beat GMail yet.

      My IMAP client, while it may not offer Google's exact flavor of search technology, does a perfectly fine job of searching my mail. (Indexing and searching text isn't rocket science.)

      Which is why you'd think someone else would've gotten it right. (See my sibling's mention of labels. You might know them as "tags".)

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    24. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's highly unlikely and could happen to anyone. However, there are standard practices here and I'd be surprised if a well known registrar would mess something up like that.

    25. Re:I never "got" GMail by synx · · Score: 1

      This comment is off base - your shared data is in fact now SHARED.

      Things that people cannot see:
      - what blogs you are subscribed to
      - what items you star
      - what you read or dont read

      etc

      In other words, when you share something, it is in fact shared.

    26. Re:I never "got" GMail by synx · · Score: 1

      The Gmail UI interface is one of the best I've seen. The threaded view is so efficient on the screen space and is a great way to read mail lists. It's also great at work too, since replies to old threads brings the whole thing to the top, so everyone on the list gets the whole history right there.

      I've used squirrelmail, and I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest that it is better than gmail's UI. The only potential negative is that gmail is not self-hosted.

      Just admit it - for your needs/desires you don't like webmail. That doesn't mean there are no benefits or positive things about webmail. If you admitted that you'd be less of an asshole.

    27. Re:I never "got" GMail by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Labels don't cut it for you? I actually prefer to be able to tag emails that have to do with more than one subject in more than one way.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    28. Re:I never "got" GMail by Schlemphfer · · Score: 1
      >Except that goolge will silently add a header to your email which contains the GMail address which it was sent from: "Sender:"

      No, Not "Sender." Actually all Google tacks on is "Return Path," in your email's full header, which is both an accurate and elegant approach to what's being done. Nobody with well-designed email software operating in default mode would ever see your email's return path.

      >Try sending an email to a hotmail address. It will say:
      >From: sendingAddress@gmail.com on behalf of yourFromAddress@yourDomain

      >It looks very unprofessional.

      Please don't take this as a flame, but I'm supposed to worry that Hotmail users might think I'm being unprofessional with my email handling?

      No other email service that I'm aware of does the behavior you describe. But then I guess you can count on Microsoft to purposely make an elegant service offered by their competitors appear clumsy once you are within Microsoft's ecosystem.

      --
      I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
    29. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      gmail reads all your email, adds that data to your profile, adds that to the doubleclick.net data, adds that to google-analytics data and all the other google owned company data ... searches perhaps ... They know **everything** about your life online. That's fine assuming you agree to it. Use implies agreement.

      I bet you never connected these dots or you simply don't care about privacy whether on-line or not. Eventually, google will buy VISA and connect your purchases with your online use. Then they will purchase Comcast and tag all your TV watching.

      Take a quick look at their privacy policy. Scary.

    30. Re:I never "got" GMail by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Here's the thing: You don't need to give up your desktop client. GMail supports IMAP -- best of both worlds. I do most of my mailing from Thunderbird, but that's not to say that the web interface doesn't come in handy.

      Google's spam filtering is much better for me than what Thunderbird does, even after years of training -- and with regard to your claim that your IMAP client does search just as well, I doubt it very much; I only know of two of them that have similarly comprehensive functionality (boolean logic, individual components of that search restricted to to/from/subject/whatever, etc).

      I used to pay for an IMAP-accessible account from SpamCOP. Still do, actually, since I haven't quite finished migrating off of it yet. However, GMail (or, rather, its Google Apps counterpart) offers more features and better spam filtering at a much better price (free, as opposed to $30/yr); why wouldn't I use it?

    31. Re:I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      You said you own your own domain that you use for your email account. Did you know that you can now forward all your email to Gmail, enjoy the benefits of a superb spam filter, and then use either Gmail's excellent web interface or an IMAP client?
      I already have a "superb spam filter." If were to use the same IMAP client I use now, well then there's no noticeable difference, so why bother?

      Did you know that you can now use Google to have your default return address be your custom domain name, so nobody even knows your using GMail?
      You say that like it's an innovation. My return address has been my own domain name for well over a decade.
      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    32. Re:I never "got" GMail by adolf · · Score: 1

      Folders, labels, whatever. They're so close to the same thing that it's almost not worth mentioning. The only functional difference that I can discern between the two is that a message may have more than one label, whereas folder-based systems typically only allow a message to exist in one place at one time.

      So. Don't like labels? Simply never assign more than label of them to a given message, and you'll be just as limited as you would be if it were using folders instead.

    33. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One week ago Google Reader's team decided to begin showing your private data to all your GMail contacts.
      I never "got" why people fell all over themselves about GMail and getting a GMail account. I've kept my own domain and use it for e-mail. Should my mail provider do something I don't like, I'd move my mail to another provider and update my MX record. (FYI: my mail provider, registrar, and ISP are 3 different companies.) The answer is that what you just mentioned is beyond the time and expertise of 99% of people.
    34. Re:I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      With GMail, you can have it both ways -- a webmail client and IMAP access.
      You can have it both ways now. IMAP is a relatively recent offering by GMail. That doesn't explain GMail's frenzied early adoption.
      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    35. Re:I never "got" GMail by adolf · · Score: 1

      Standards? Even without the webmail interface, Gmail is a win as an IMAP server.

      The spam filter alone is worth the price of admission; it catches more shit than anything else I've been able to cook up, after years of fucking with spamassassin/amavis/postfix. It also integrates nicely with IMAP; dropping things in the spam folder in Thunderbird automatically tags and learns the message as being spam.

      They also host my personal domain's mail for free.

      No complaints from me.

    36. Re:I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      I can apply multiple labels to a single email, whereas with traditional email clients, I can merely file emails in a single mailbox, or I can make a copy in another mailbox.
      Apple's Mail client has had "Smart Mailboxes" for years now. Any message that matches the criteria you choose appears in the Smart Mailbox. A single message can appear in any number of Smart Mailboxes so long as it matches their criteria.

      IMHO, the people who don't "get" Gmail, don't "get" the way labels work.
      I "get" labels just fine. IMHO, people who think labels are a GMail innovation haven't used Mail.
      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    37. Re:I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 0, Troll

      One of the most convenient is that all my mail is very quickly accessible from any machine connected to the internet, without any setup of an IMAP client necessary.
      If I'm out somewhere and I want to check e-mail, I have my pre-configured laptop with me. All I need is to find a WiFi hotspot. Here in San Francisco, they're all over the place. If I'm out somewhere and I don't have my laptop with me, well then I'm doing something interesting or fun and have no burning desire to stop what I'm doing to check e-mail anyway.
      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    38. Re:I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      When you have a group of friends who can email around 100+ emails in a single thread in a single day, it's impossible to live without.
      Most fortunately, I don't have that problem. You have to admit, that's quite a niche use-case.
      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    39. Re:I never "got" GMail by empaler · · Score: 1

      As someone else mentioned, you can use Google Apps for Your Domain. It's free up to 100 users, all with giant inboxes, POP and IMAP. And private area Google Docs - and Cal, Talk, etc.
      I use it extensively, as has my last two employers, plus a place I volunteer at. http://google.com/a/ is the place to start. My best piece of advice: copy and paste the MX settings if your transfer. There's almost a system to their URLs to follow and then you make errors. HTH, and Merry Christmas :)

    40. Re:I never "got" GMail by dal20402 · · Score: 1

      It's not just Apple Mail. Many clients have had this ability for a long time. Nevertheless, smart mailboxes aren't quite equivalent to arbitrary tagging.

      Nevertheless, I don't get the gmail religion either. The UI may be one of the best AJAX UIs out there, but it's still a web interface. Even a bad desktop client is more responsive and more pleasant to use given any sort of real-life internet connection (i.e. not the one a Google dev has at work).

      Web interfaces are setting back usability by several years.

    41. Re:I never "got" GMail by caerwyn · · Score: 1

      That's actually not true at all- the two capabilities are orthogonal to each other.

      Smart Mailboxes are, in effect, saved searches with result sets that are updated in real time. That is, they are automatic sortings based on intrinsic properties of the messages in the account.

      Labels, on the other hand, are user-applied attributes of a message rather than something intrinsic. They can therefor be used to create groupings that cannot be automatically created without actual semantic analysis of the content of the message.

      They're both very useful, but neither one actually provides the capabilities of the other- and, in fact, they'd work together beautifully. If the search capabilities of smart mailboxes could take labels into account, they could provide much more effective sorting.

      --
      The ringing of the division bell has begun... -PF
    42. Re:I never "got" GMail by Ross+Finlayson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree. Serious professionals do *not* use "@gmail.com" email addresses. Sorry, they just don't. Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com" etc.

      If you don't want to look like a noob, then don't use "@gmail.com" email addresses.

    43. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and if you don't want to look like a knob, don't fag out about what domain someone uses for their personal e-mail address. Idiot.

    44. Re:I never "got" GMail by Shag · · Score: 1

      Except that goolge will silently add a header to your email which contains the GMail address which it was sent from: "Sender:"


      No, Not "Sender." Actually all Google tacks on is "Return Path," in your email's full header, which is both an accurate and elegant approach to what's being done.

      Did you, oh, I dunno, actually look at headers from Gmail before posting this? I just did, and Gmail is putting in both Return-Path: and Sender: headers.

      Mind you, I agree that this is entirely appropriate behavior - but claiming it doesn't do it would be wrong. And no, I'm not looking at it in Hotmail, and my MUA doesn't display either of those headers by default (only in full-source view).
      --
      Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
    45. Re:I never "got" GMail by AySz88 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Serious professionals in the tech sector do *not* use "@gmail.com" email addresses. ...that's probably more accurate. I know of plenty of "professionals" in non-tech areas that use GMail, Hotmail, or even still AOL (gasp!). Plus, those who use GMail in the tech sector probably already know how to mask the fact that they use GMail, since you can use whatever domain name you want.
    46. Re:I never "got" GMail by Mauvaisours · · Score: 1

      I never "got" why people fell all over themselves about GMail
      I was like you, until I had to travel to places where internet access is NOT guarented to be good (namely China). My POP/IMAP accounts kept disconnecting because of timeout when retreiving mail. I now read my email through Gmail in these kind of places. I keep using claws for the rest of my email reading (read at home & work).
    47. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good for you. I don't own a laptop. Never have, can't afford one. Nor can I afford a phone that can run anything more complex than Arkanoid clones.

      So, if I want to check my email from anywhere but my house, it pretty much has to be by using webmail. As for, "but why would someone be using webmail in the first place?"

      Well, I had no choice. As a college student who works in a restaurant, I have never had an employer who gave me an email address. My university's email system is atrocious, and all your data is wiped upon graduation. I can't really set up my own server, since I can't afford any class of internet service that grants a static IP.

      So yeah, GMail was a beautiful thing for me; it beat the shit out of hotmail.

      If you have a reasonable suggestion for avoiding GMail in my situation, please, by all means.

      Otherwise, you might want to take into consideration that some people are (temporarily or otherwise) too damn poor to have their own desktop client solutions.

    48. Re:I never "got" GMail by Schlemphfer · · Score: 1
      OK, you're right and I blew it. I did look before, but confused the "from" field with the "sender" field.

      Anyway, the most important point is that apart from hotmail, it seems that every email service displays only your personal domain's email in your email's header, and not your gmail account (unless the recipient chooses to view full headers.)

      --
      I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
    49. Re:I never "got" GMail by hoover · · Score: 1

      As for pgp signing, you might want to check out the firegpg plugin for firefox if that happens to be your browser of choice.

      I too switched to gmail, after 15 years of using a console only client (first elm, then some pine, followed by mutt). I think my biggest arguments in its favour are the ability to access your email from anywhere, and of course the advanced search and labelling features gmail offers.

      The only downside left for me now that google has apparently implemented imap access is the fact that it's impossible to display or compose messages in a fixed with font without using HTML email.

      I have no idea why gmail seems unable to do that as it works ok in google groups, but it's only a minor gripe left with an otherwise excellent webmail system.

      --
      Ever wondered whats wrong with the world? http://www.ishmael.org/
    50. Re:I never "got" GMail by Simon+(S2) · · Score: 1

      You said you own your own domain that you use for your email account. Did you know that you can now forward all your email to Gmail

      If I do that I give up all my privacy to google.

      enjoy the benefits of a superb spam filter

      Setting up Spamassassin is not that hard.

      and then use either Gmail's excellent web interface or an IMAP client?

      I use roundcube webmail installed on my own box when I am on the road, and kmail on my laptop. And the most important thing: my mail is on MY server, and not on googles. AND I can access ALL my mail, not just my gmail account.

      Did you know that you can now use Google to have your default return address be your custom domain name, so nobody even knows your using GMail?

      I can set my headers to whatever I want.

      Did you know that GMail offers unlimited filters, so that every time some clown decides to add you to his BCC "Ron Paul 2008" list, you can click the filter button and never, ever hear from him again?

      procmail is better for sure. Sorry.

      All of this is free.

      I disagree. It's not free. You are paying with your private data.

      Like you I have my own domain -- but Gmail's excellent suite of services is too useful to miss out on.

      I am happy for you if it does the job for you, but please don't assume it is better than everything else.
      --
      I just don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.
    51. Re:I never "got" GMail by Kasis · · Score: 1

      This is why I never understood the Gmail phenomenon. The fact that it was "invite only" maybe had something to do with the appeal for certain people.

      I received the occasional invite (lets face it, who didn't?). However, it was fairly clear that Google would be using my emails to target advertising, make money and build information on me to further their own aims. Thanks, but I have access to various email accounts which are not part of the worlds largest data-mining operation.

    52. Re:I never "got" GMail by wdavies · · Score: 1

      So not true.

      I have a friends folder, and inside a couple of categories, US, UK, etc. Can;t be done with tags (I could create a friend.UK tag, but that is not really the same).

      The Google implementation is actually buggy. The tag gets applied to the THREAD. Not the message. Thus say you send out an invite, and want to tag incoming bounces as "ERROR" using a filter, it doesn't help, as all replies get shown with that tag.

      FYI, I'm not anti tagging, just anti fanboi-ism.

    53. Re:I never "got" GMail by antiseptic_poetry · · Score: 1

      My IMAP client, while it may not offer Google's exact flavor of search technology, does a perfectly fine job of searching my mail. (Indexing and searching text isn't rocket science.)

      So you can do a full body text search of 60,000+ emails in under 1 second using your IMAP client? If so cool, please let us know which program you use because that's amazing performance.

      For me being able to search my emails quickly is a killer feature, enough to make me switch away from a thick client. Also labels and conversations are such great features that i honestly couldn't live without them anymore. I assume you've used Gmail for a significant period and are basing your judgement around that experience?

    54. Re:I never "got" GMail by antiseptic_poetry · · Score: 1

      I have a friends folder, and inside a couple of categories, US, UK, etc. Can;t be done with tags (I could create a friend.UK tag, but that is not really the same).

      Just create 3 sets of labels: 'Friends', 'UK', 'US'. Every friend gets the 'Friends' label and either 'UK' or 'US' depending on where they're from. You can now search/view all friends or friends by region.

      How is that functionally different to having folders and subfolders?

    55. Re:I never "got" GMail by 1001011010110101 · · Score: 1

      Newsflash: webmail is quite practical for most people, that's why everyone and their brother have a couple of accounts on some provider or another (and many people on more than one). Don't you? Not even a hotmail account for MSN or Spam?

      Gmail had the best UI and gave 500-1000x the storage of the competition when it first started, that's why they got so big so soon.

    56. Re:I never "got" GMail by CRC'99 · · Score: 1

      All of this is free. Like you I have my own domain -- but Gmail's excellent suite of services is too useful to miss out on.


      Ahhh yes, Free*

      * You agree by using this service that Google Inc can and will store, index and data mine all email that you receive on a permanent basis and use the data for whatever we feel like. You won't have a say in this, you won't know what we do with this data, but we'll have all the dirt we ever need on you. forever.
      --
      Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
    57. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then install your own webmail server. Roundcube is a good alternative.

    58. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The stench of smug is overwhelming.

      Get over yourself dude - not a single thing about your domain management, registrar or mail setup is in any way unique or even interesting. You are not doing *anything* different than many, many other people.

    59. Re:I never "got" GMail by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      hat's why everyone and their brother have a couple of accounts on some provider or another (and many people on more than one). Don't you? Not even a hotmail account for MSN or Spam?
      No, I don't. Why do I want to check more than one personal account daily? I want all my e-mail in one place. As far as having "special" accounts: having my own domain, I can create new addresses at will, use them for a bit for some special purpose, then delete them.

      Gmail had the best UI and gave 500-1000x the storage of the competition when it first started, that's why they got so big so soon.
      The best UI for webmail. And I simply don't need that amount of storage. I actually delete e-mail I no longer need. Shocking perhaps, but true.
      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    60. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GMail contacts list and the GTalk contacts list are identical. Anyone you send email to -- even if it's only one time -- is automatically added to your GTalk contacts list. The summary was not incorrect.

    61. Re:I never "got" GMail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Well there are multiple reasons to use webmail instead of a desktop client. One of the most convenient is that all my mail is very quickly accessible from any machine connected to the internet, without any setup of an IMAP client necessary. Also, it's search performance is actually faster than most thick clients I've used for e-mail. Finally, the freeness of the mail storage space it offers is nice."

      I just leave on of my home machines on all the time, remote into it from work, and I've got my mail client, my web browser with all my bookmarks, all my files, hundreds of times more disk space than gmail will ever dole out, etc. I've even offered friends and families accounts on my box (its an easy way to gradually introduce them to linux) - but more and more of them are like me, and have their own domains, and also don't need "freemail".

      freemail is so last century - as are the excuses to use it. The "I can access it anywhere" rationale will die in a truly connected world, since you'll be able to access ALL your data on your home box from anywhere.

    62. Re:I never "got" GMail by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Really, lables are no different from folders. People just have a hard time changing the way they think about things. It's a universal human trait.

      Google's specific implementation of labels, however, leaves a little to be desired. For one thing, it would be nice if labels could be nested, or collapsed or hidden in some way. Having a long column of labels kinda sucks. In your example, I might never want to browse the UK label alone--I may only care about it in conjunction with the Friends label. If that's the case, I don't want to see UK on my list of labels on the left side of my browser screen. Nested labels would effectively allow this, but only showing the top level, and expanding it if you want to see more.

      It also wreaks havoc with IMAP folders. Google...mostly managed to work around this, but it's a hack.

    63. Re:I never "got" GMail by Alsee · · Score: 1

      "@gmail.com" email addresses... "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com" etc.

      As some of you may recall, the OLPC project is currently being sued under a patent from the national ministry IndustrialPropertyOfficesNigeria.

      It would be very sad joke if anyone ever suggested the official government offices were at located iponigeria@gmail.com... and of course suggesting iponigeria@hotmail.com would just be a very silly joke.... . . .

      Yeah... you know what's coming...
      They aren't.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    64. Re:I never "got" GMail by joto · · Score: 1

      So it's got a slick UI. BFD. But even you qualified your own statement. I have an equally nice UI using the same IMAP client I've been using since before GMail existed. I don't "get" why anyone would give up desktop clients for webmail.

      Eh, because I don't want to sit at my desktop to read email. Or because I don't want to lug around a laptop, simply to keep my mail in one place. Or because there's no such thing as a good standard email-client found anywhere, so I would have to lug around an installation CD if I wanted to read mail on somebody elses computer.

      Assuming you have a good enough webmail interface, the advantages of dropping the MUA should be pretty obvious. Gmail has a good enough webmail interface.

      My IMAP client aslo has solid spam filtering. My IMAP client, while it may not offer Google's exact flavor of search technology, does a perfectly fine job of searching my mail. (Indexing and searching text isn't rocket science.)

      I have no doubt your IMAP client is excellent. The trouble is that you need your IMAP client. All I need is a webbrowser. Another advantage I have is that I don't need to worry about a server, configuration, or any of that shit, google already does the work for me. I would be happy to pay a reasonable amount for someone to manage it for me (instead of advertizing financing it, as it is now), but mail just ain't important enough to pay for it with *my* time as well. Bothering with a vanity domain and all that shit, just doesn't sound that cool, when the end result is a solution that serves my needs slightly less than gmail, but still costs time and money.

      Well, OK: if you were using webmail before GMail, I can see why you'd switch to GMail. But to me, that still begs the question of: why were you using webmail in the first place?

      I use webmail for the same reason I use a mobile phone. It's more convenient to be able to read and write mail from anywhere, with the same convenient interface, just like it's more convenient with your phone in your pocket, than it is to constantly "borrow a phone" wherever you go. I have no more interest in running my own mail-server, than I have in running my own switchboard for my phone.

    65. Re:I never "got" GMail by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      As for pgp signing, you might want to check out the firegpg plugin for firefox if that happens to be your browser of choice.

      It doesn't, which is another reason not to like GMail. They are using browser detection, thus GMail will actually refuse to run normally in Konqueror unless I do user-agent spoofing. And when I do, almost everything works -- in GMail. Not absolutely everything, and certain other things (Calendars, Docs) don't really work at all.

      But, I do actually use it for my work email, and I agree, it's a damned good system. I just haven't found a compelling reason to use it at home, when I already have my own mailserver.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    66. Re:I never "got" GMail by MntlChaos · · Score: 1

      Well, that's an interesting idea, of everyone having a home server. It's certainly an alternative. However, it requires a computer to be on 24-7, which winds up being somewhat expensive. I've not deleted a single thing since starting to use my gmail account, and still have under a gig of data on it. It's more than enough storage for my e-mail.

    67. Re:I never "got" GMail by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Apple's Mail client has had "Smart Mailboxes" for years now. Any message that matches the criteria you choose appears in the Smart Mailbox. A single message can appear in any number of Smart Mailboxes so long as it matches their criteria.
      I think that you just proved my point that you don't "get" labels in Gmail. As other posters have pointed out, Smart Mailboxes are different to labels -- probably a combination of the two features would be very useful.
      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    68. Re:I never "got" GMail by skiman1979 · · Score: 1

      And all of that is offset by the fact that you still can't sort emails into folders.
      Just use labels instead. Same end result really. Of course you could then set up filters on incoming messages to assign labels to them and remove them from the inbox (remove the "inbox" label from them). That way your inbox is cleaner, and those emails from the Christmas 2006 party are in the "Christmas 2006 party" label. One thing labels have over folders is you can have multiple labels on a single message instead of having to create multiple copies of the message to store in different folders. Back when I was job searching, I had careerbuilder job alerts automatically show up under "Careerbuilder Alerts". Jobs I actually applied to kept that label, but also got the "Careerbuilder Applications" label.
      --
      Having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool.
  4. I don't get it by lb746 · · Score: 2, Informative

    This seems like they just added the same feature that make Del.icio.us such a popular sight. I can understand if this is sharing your pr0n folder with grandma, but if your using an RSS feed for that, than I'm just way behind the times I guess?

    Maybe someone with personal experience can help explain this better than the linked articles did. Did it automatically check all your previously stored items as being shared, or does it just default share everything?

    1. Re:I don't get it by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Okay. Let's say you're a pagan or a Wiccan or a Druid or something like that. Your fundamentalist Christian family, all of which have gmail accounts because you sent them invitations because you thought it was soo cool, has no idea of your alternative religious beliefs. You've subscribed to feeds from Witchvox.com and a number of similar sites.

      What Google essentially did just 'outed' you to them.

      Speaking as neopagan practitioner and priest (out of the closet), I can say that this situation would be not be unlikely at all.

    2. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your family is going to 'out' you because of your beliefs, why would you want to be 'in' with them anyway? Doesnt sound like much of a family.

    3. Re:I don't get it by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      If your family is going to 'out' you because of your beliefs, why would you want to be 'in' with them anyway? Doesnt sound like much of a family. Well, and that's exactly what I've counseled to plenty of my students and others who have sought my help in the past. Unfortunately, for some, this may not be much of an option. Some are dependent upon their families for financial support, for example. Others need to keep in contact with family members who are sympathetic to them, but the rest of the family may actively attempt to prevent contact because the pagan family member is a member of an 'evil Satanic cult' (despite having no belief in Satan, yada yada). There can be a lot of intriticate politics involved in being a pagan when your family won't support you in those beliefs, so Google outing these people in this way can be extremely painful for them.

    4. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      werd.

      So live in the shadows, pretend that your life isnt so offensive to those family members with the issue, and continue to mooch support off them that they would be unwilling to provide if they knew about your beliefs?

      Sounds like more trouble than its worth, but what do I know - I conform.

    5. Re:I don't get it by X · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For this scenario to play out, you'd have to click on "share" an article from these feeds. Free advice: if you are worried about privacy, don't click on things that say "share". If you do, you might want to unclick them quickly.

      --
      sigs are a waste of space
    6. Re:I don't get it by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Once, again, you're right. And once again, that's what I tell people who ask me. Unfortunately, not everyone will follow your advice.

    7. Re:I don't get it by loganrapp · · Score: 1
      You tell your family everything you've ever done? You expect your family to understand and accept every single thing you've ever done?


      Hell, brother, you won't even tell us your name!

    8. Re:I don't get it by Sxooter · · Score: 1

      Or what if you're into BDSM or Queening, or like to write Star Trek Slash fiction.

      Is it really a good idea that what was previously a semi-private url is now available to your parents, children, boss, coworkers, and business contacts?

      This change was not thought out, and the change was made without any warning.

      What if you live in Iran and are Gay, and are subscribed to feeds on the subject of your sexuality, and you'd shared that with one or two close gay friends.

      You go into work monday morning and everyone is looking at you like you're a freak, and on the way home you just disappear.

      It's possible. And no one at google thought to question this new behaviour...

      --

      --- It is not the things we do which we regret the most, but the things which we don't do.
    9. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seems like they just added the same feature that make Del.icio.us such a popular sight.

      Exactly. And that is the problem.

    10. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't know the 'G' in GMail stands for 'gay'?

      Remember, the standard international practice for labeling things that are gay is to prefix them with a 'G'. Sometimes the longer prefix, "goog" is used.
      This 'goog' is gay + the international symbol 'oo' for a pair of testicles, + gay again (i.e. two men sharing their balls).
      A 'googler' then is someone who is really into the balls of gay men. To 'google' is the act of being intimate with another man's balls.

      Once you understand this, you can see who uses 'GMail' and the things they say about it will all fit into place.

      It is natural that your gay friend in Iran is using GMail. He should just tell his GoogleGroup buddies to tone down, i.e. not google in public if they want to stay safe.

    11. Re:I don't get it by joto · · Score: 1

      I disagree. You may want to "share" these articles with your friends, even though you don't want to "share" them with your family. Which is exactly what many people did, they published their "private" URL containing their "shared" items to a select group of friends.

      Then google decided that anyone in you address book should be able to see your "private" URL. In other words, google unilaterally (and without warning) decided that everyone you've ever communicated with, using email, is now in your select group of "friends". This may include things like your pain-in-the-ass boss, the lawyer of someone who is running a case against you, or that you are running a case against, your conservative christian family, your stalking ex-boyfriend, or just about anyone else who may live in your contacts but should not read every article you find on teh intarweb to share with your real friends. While it's possible to blame the users for clicking on "share" in the first place, the decision by google was infinitely more stupid than that.

    12. Re:I don't get it by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Or worse, what if you're an atheist? Considering the only group more despised than atheists are "islamic terrorists", the last thing you'd want is your shared item for a Sam Harris or Dan Dennings talk for your friends to be viewed by a potential employer, date, business contact or even some family members.

      But rather than blame Google for this service (though I agree it's a lame way of handling the shared items), I'd suggest that people who are concerned with such things simply separate their accounts. For instance, I try not to use my google account (at least not my personal one) to communicate with business contacts so that I don't avoid any accidental sends to the wrong people... and frankly, simply because I don't want them knowing my private contact info.

      This is all really a non-issue. Behaves as reasonably expected, though perhaps still not in an ideal way.

    13. Re:I don't get it by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the other hand, just because I click on 'share', because I want to share something I found with my girlfriend and a couple of my buddies does not mean that I intended to share it with the guy I had a transaction with on ebay or the person I communicated with from Craigslist to sell them my used computer monitors or the person who emailed me to ask if I wanted to sell my domain name two years ago.

      If Google has any sense at all, they will re-engineer this function so that you have greater control over how your 'shared' items are actually shared.

    14. Re:I don't get it by jrieth50 · · Score: 1

      When I logged in to GoogleReader after they made these changes:

      a) I was informed that changes had been made

      b) I was asked if I wanted to clear my share folder to start from scratch now that I had been informed that anyone could view it.

      Is this not true for others?

    15. Re:I don't get it by Sancho · · Score: 1

      The fact athat you had to quote "private" in "private URL" speaks to the fact that you know that the URL isn't private. It's obfuscated, nothing more.

    16. Re:I don't get it by Sancho · · Score: 1

      It's true for others. People just didn't pay attention. Everyone clicks through warnings, thanks to Microsoft.

      Thanks, Microsoft. You just ruined my Christmas!

    17. Re:I don't get it by joto · · Score: 1

      And this speaks in googles favour how? Changing from bad security to deliberately sabotaging their customers security needs is now a good thing?

      While I agree that private URLs is not a good security mechanism, I would rather trust a private URL to remain private for a while, than any system based on giving more information based on whether someone is someones address book. Usually, if there's something I don't want someone to know, that person can be found in my address book. Very rarely do I worry about what somebody I don't even know who is, thinks about me.

    18. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Share with who though? You make it seem like the share feature added your feeds to Google's home page.

      From what I read it seems like when you clicked "share" Google gave you an obfuscated URL that was not searchable or index-able by anyone (including Google) that you sent to people who you wanted to "share with".

      Google decided to share that with everyone you talk to on gTalk on your behalf.

      Google is known for being secretive and "surprising" people with new features (iGoogle anyone?). This is all nice and dandy, and the "ooh shiney!" effect is great. But it also puts them in situations like this when the feature isn't fully thought out.

      People will forget, nothing to see here, move along..

  5. Maybe I'm missing something by hax0r_this · · Score: 3, Insightful

    but there seems to be a fairly obvious way to opt out. Its not sharing any of my private data, because I simply don't use the product.

    If you aren't willing to give Google what they want then why should Google give you anything?

    1. Re:Maybe I'm missing something by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Too true. I know every time I buy something on Amazon, I think "hey, if the person working for amazon takes my credit card information and sells it to some group of Nigerians to commit extensive bank fraud and destroy my credit and financial future in the process -- *I* am the idiot, because I gave Amazon my information".

  6. Web applications by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...more often than not are proprietary software. An open source desktop application would more than likely to have a thousand options for customisation so that all the users are pleased, (gnome applications excluded of course). If you are running proprietary software on your desktop or a proprietary web application then you use what you are given.

    1. Re:Web applications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "a thousand options for customisation so that all the users are pleased" This statement is fundamentally wrong. A thousand options guarantees that nobody is pleased. See "The Paradox of Choice" by Barry Schwartz.
      http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/93

  7. damned if you do, damned if you don't by larry+bagina · · Score: 1, Insightful

    at this point, anything google does is going to piss off someone. They need to keep growing to keep the suits happy, but the more they grow, the less I (and others) like them. Yahoo tried to be everything to everybody and failed it bigtime. Maybe if their search wasn't full of shit results they could look it up.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    1. Re:damned if you do, damned if you don't by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Google has not deviated from their intent to organize all existing information on the planet. Everything they've done has only further supported that mission. The possible exceptions being perhaps Blogspot which is less about organizing data than controlling the generation of it.

      The problem is that outside of their search and possibly email/calendar services, everything that they rollout is done in what feels like a less-than-beta, half-assed way.

    2. Re:damned if you do, damned if you don't by larry+bagina · · Score: 1
      google video/youtube?
      sketchup?
      google docs?
      google mail?
      google calendar?
      desktop gadgets?
      open social?
      orkut?


      It's a stretch to say those are intended to organize existing information. It's cool that they let their engineers work on side products, it's cool that they turn side projects into real projects. It's not cool that they're half assed and abandoned.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  8. A big mistake at a critical moment by Janos421 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's quite a surprising mistake from Google, particularly when the merge with Double-Click "brings greater focus on privacy". Even if they claim that they fix some problems and offer more control to users, they could have make these fix before launching the service... but it's a beta. That's what you risk when you use free beta services.

    Furthermore, it is a good example of privacy lack of consideration, and it offers a good argument to privacy defenders. In addition, it highlights the fact that every service offered per Google potentially involves privacy problems. In fact, like Google, I wouldn't have believed that GReader data were so sensitive. And once again, it proves that privacy matters only when you lost it.

    So far, we used anonymity to protect privacy, but in that case... proxies are useless. How can we protect privacy against such threats? One solution is to use obfuscation: generating noise (for instance, subscribing to additional RSS flows that we'll never read) in our profile so neither Google, nor our gmail contact can find out which are the RSS flows we are really reading. This assumes that the obfuscation mechanism let only the user know to which flows it really subscribed.

    I don't think such mechanism exists now for Greader, but I'm developing a FF plug-in (http://squigglesr.free.fr) to protect search privacy using obfuscation. Keywords are extracting from your favorite RSS flows (for example the one you subscribed in greader) to generate personalized queries. It's quite similar to TrackMeNot (which also use obfuscation), but I'm trying to make less noise but make it more coherent (a good comparison is trying to make lot of noise around what you say, or simply mix some coherent conversations).

    1. Re:A big mistake at a critical moment by Anxarcule · · Score: 3, Funny

      That sure wasn't blatant advertising or anything.

    2. Re:A big mistake at a critical moment by vrmlguy · · Score: 1

      WTF? Your comments doesn't seem to have any relation to the topic at hand, other than containing the words, "Google" and "privacy". I don't see why your getting any moderation other than "offtopic".

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
  9. Don't bring an internet to a pissing match by MrLint · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So I went looking for how this ruined x-mas for someone and found the link.

    It seems like to me that what started out as something that was shared turned into a pissing match between already barely tolerating each other family members. I fault this summary because intentional escalation of individuals is *not* the fault of google (or anyone other than the parties involved.

    1. Re:Don't bring an internet to a pissing match by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The problem was that it was shared with more people than intended. Imagine sending an e-mail using g-mail to one of your friends and finding that it was sent to your entire contact list, and you'll see where the problem is coming from.

    2. Re:Don't bring an internet to a pissing match by Felipe+Hoffa · · Score: 1

      I agree the summary should be clearer. At least it would had made the point stronger, but everything is detailed in the thread and in the extended summary of the thread.

      The problem starts the minute Google decides pushing information no one wanted pushed to people that never asked to receive it.

      Let's pick something "more public" to improve the example. Maybe you write a blog that not everyone will like. It might be public, but only people that go searching for it will find it and only when they decide to search for it. Even if they don't like it, they won't have to do anything to NOT read it again.

      What would happen if Google decides pushing it without your aproval to all your e-mail contacts? Then you would be crossing private space. You would be seen as invading personal space (other people in-boxes) without their explicit request. It would be really annoying, but Google just keeps pushing it without any mechanism to turn it off.

      So if you want to stop invading other people private space you can't continue doing things the way you used to. Google gives you 2 choices:

      - Stop publishing and delete all your content. In other words, "if you publish a blog we will start sending it to all your e-mail contacts... if you don't like this, delete everything".

      - Or, delete all your e-mail contacts!

      (and why should those two services even be related to each other?)

      So if you are the producer there are only two ways to stop this: Delete all your content, or delete all your contacts. There is no way to continue doing things as you used to. No opt-out.

      And if you are the receiver of these unwanted messages? You have to unsubscribe one by one of each "offering". If someone new starts producing content and you don't want to see it in your in-box, you'll have to react again, and again, and again to this "invassion". There is no mechanism for saying "please stop subscribing me to this 'service', I'm not interested". (And that would be very Beacon like, there you could unsubscribe for each company's posts, but you couldn't say "I don't want any unknown company in my profile in the future").

      So that's the problem, pushing unwanted content from unwilling pushers.

      If I have differences with someone I can pick not sending him content he won't agree. I have the choice to avoid conflicts and continue sharing with people that will enjoy my POV. Google took away that freedom, and the only choices they give me are deleting all content or all contacts. Not nice, really.

      There are more conflicts around this "feature", but does this make the ruined Christmas example clearer?

      Fh

      Ps: Again, in other words. There is no way to permanently opt-out of sending content (other than erasing everything) and no way to permanently opt-out of receiving it (you'll have to react each time Google decides to start pushing you a new feed).

    3. Re:Don't bring an internet to a pissing match by Viraptor · · Score: 1

      The problem starts the minute Google decides pushing information no one wanted pushed to people that never asked to receive it. And you never clicked "share" and you never confirmed "ok" on sharing when the feature was enabled?

      Even if they don't like it, they won't have to do anything to NOT read it again. Because clicking "manage friends" -> "hide" is so much of a problem.

      Google just keeps pushing it without any mechanism to turn it off. Apart from sharing a single tag for a group of people, turning off sharing, hiding feeds that you don't need, ...

      So if you are the producer there are only two ways to stop this: Delete all your content, or delete all your contacts. There is no way to continue doing things as you used to. No opt-out. 3 actually: delete contacts, stop sharing, or share only specified tags - each on different url - which don't get mixed up in general "shared items".

      Google took away that freedom, and the only choices they give me are deleting all content or all contacts. Not nice, really. You've written it 3'rd time already and it's still not true. Your "shared items" are shared with everyone. Your public tags are shared only through url.

      Ps: Again, in other words. There is no way to permanently opt-out of sending content (other than erasing everything) and no way to permanently opt-out of receiving it (you'll have to react each time Google decides to start pushing you a new feed). opt-out from sending shared: side menu -> manage friends -> "move or clear your shared items" -> move to tag; then make tag public. Easy? Yes.
      opt-out from receiving: that's really google's fault that there's no "on/off" switch for it. But you can still just ignore it / hide friends. It's not the end of the world.
    4. Re:Don't bring an internet to a pissing match by Felipe+Hoffa · · Score: 1


      Viraptor,

      I can see we both agree on facts, we just hold a different opinion on them. I'll stop using some words so we can find where we do agree. If you don't agree with any point, please tell me, as you sound smart (your blog confirms that) and I'm interested.

      First, it's not the end of the world. We both agree on this. But it could signal the start of a trend that leads to the end of Google as we know it (it could happen, it has happened to other giants before). They need trust, without it people want give them their data.

      For example, we can agree that there are a lot of angry people thanks to this feature. You can count them, so it is a fact. You can start with me if you want. For example, I wrote a couple of articles in a medium traffic spanish blog recommending Google Reader. Now I'll have to change it and write a new one. The underlying message will be "I'm sorry I recommended G.R., I don't trust them anymore, use this other product instead". You might disagree on my reasons for doing so, but I am not the only one that feels this way, and just because of this new feature. As Warren Buffett would say "If you lose money I will be understanding, but if you lose reputation I'll be ruthless". There is a lost of Google's reputation here, even if you don't think there should be.

      Let's continue with the instructions to stop the unwanted result of this feature avoided. Let's say I follow the instructions we both read and that you just repeated on your post. I'll delete all my previously shared content, I'll re-tag it, I'll change that tag to "public", I'll get a new feed url, I'll write all my friends I previously shared content with and tell them "please, you'll have to delete the old url and add this new one", they will all comply and then everything will work as it was working two weeks ago. It's a lot of effort, but you think it's reasonable, and I won't argue with that for now. But what would happen next?

      You see, I followed the instructions and marked a tag as "public". What will stop Google sharing that tag with all my e-mail contacts in the future? Because that's just what they did now. They took something I used one way and they started broadcasting it just because it said "shared". Why won't they use the same arguments for something that says "public"?

    5. Re:Don't bring an internet to a pissing match by Felipe+Hoffa · · Score: 1

      Typo: They need trust, without it people won't give them their data.

  10. Shared items are not private by cheebie · · Score: 5, Funny

    The laws of physics have begun exposing all of your private items to the world. In a stunning turn of events, it has been discovered that if you place things on your front lawn with a gigantic sign saying "Look at me!", people can freely see them.

    "This is outrageous", screamed Peter P Hysterical on the same forum where he documents every nanosecond of his life. "There's no opt out procedure, there's no whitelisting. It's just everyone looking at all the stuff I've decided to share."

    God, responding to inquiries said, "Look, if you don't want people to see your stuff, put it inside. I created walls for a reason."

    1. Re:Shared items are not private by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You do understand that telling one or two people something while it is "sharing" it with them, isn't the same thing as telling everyone that same thing right? And maybe the fact that so much of everything else is so public, that these few casually private pieces of life would mean more in this respect then an average joe not in the same position.

      The problem isn't that it was shared, it was who it was shared with changed and that meant things that you wouldn't tell you boss made it to him directly from you without any notice or any way to prevent it.

    2. Re:Shared items are not private by J.Dev.06 · · Score: 1

      "Your shared items are publicly accessible." From Google Reader's "Your shared items" page. This has been on the page for the shared items URL since day one. Just because the URL is slightly obfuscated, doesn't mean that you assume it's a private matter. Especially when you're being told in bold that it is a public matter!

    3. Re:Shared items are not private by MorpheousMarty · · Score: 1

      While I agree, what do you (and the rest of /.) think about the idea that once you share something on-line you can expect it to be available to everyone? I know that in the future I'm going to assume the stuff I share on Google is shared with everyone I have ever contacted through Google, and my gut is telling me that I should have always had this attitude. Maybe Google should just require to you accept your friends manually, just like everyone else (MySpace, Facebook, even MSN), and then, since we are already used to the idea that they will see everything we share, this won't be a problem. Google was foolish to share everything with all your contacts if your contacts are automatically generated. It's like you invited someone to your office for a chat but Google leaned on the intercom button.

    4. Re:Shared items are not private by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Maybe Google should just require to you accept your friends manually, just like everyone else (MySpace, Facebook, even MSN), and then, since we are already used to the idea that they will see everything we share, this won't be a problem.

      From the article, that's the way it used to work. Then Google decided to change it to share everything with everyone in your GMail contacts, with no warning that it was being changed. Surprise!
      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    5. Re:Shared items are not private by MorpheousMarty · · Score: 1

      The details are a little vague, but if I am not mistaken, you used to be able to decide who to share it with, they changed it so it is now shared with everyone. Even if that is not the case, Google adds people to your contact list without asking, that is not new but has always caused unintended consequences. .

    6. Re:Shared items are not private by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      "Share" and "sharing" are relative terms that is always put in context. If you have some candy and decide to share it, are you sharing it with just your family, friends, just the people around you or any sob walking down the street who passes by while you still have some? Even in the online world, You forward one email to a friend and share the contents or you forwards it to everyone, or you forward it to a select group of friends. Do you put what you want to share in a newsgroup that is passworded and only admit those who you want in, or it is open to anyone that can discover it? How about in a program, say something in like a Google app that gives you the appearance of only sharing it with certain people that you can control access from.

      Yes, if it wasn't for the fact that it used to be that way, You selected who got to see your stuff, unless they were somehow able to discover your feed another way; the switch to everyone in your address books, including the contacts Google adds automatically, this would be a non-issue. The switch changed the relativeness and context of sharing without a warning or input from the user at all. It is like going from sharing your candy with your siblings to everyone in the neighborhood while you were distracted or doing something else. While this might not be an issue if you planed on everyone having access to it, it might be when you didn't. Keeping in line with the candy, knowing that everyone would have access, you might put the candy bowl on the portch step compared to the living room coffee table. Why? because there are some things you might not want everyone to see in the house.

      I think that fits rather nicely, although analogies are rarely perfect. But I hope this raises the context to make it more understandable.

    7. Re:Shared items are not private by novakyu · · Score: 1

      If you want to share something with only a few people, encrypt it with their public key and email it to them (http://www.gnupg.org/). They will understand that it was meant only for them and not share it with others (nor will others, even if it were NSA, be able to find it out).

      Laws of gossip dictate that if more than 2 people know something, it will soon become a public knowledge. Live with it.

    8. Re:Shared items are not private by sholden · · Score: 1

      Way to miss the point.

      It isn't the data (i.e. the contents of the items in the feed) which are "private", it's the fact that you clearly had some interest in them in order to put them in a list of some sort.

      A teenager has a set of "friends", their school friends, their family, their church friends. previously they had shared a bunch of things with their school friends. Suddenly, it's all available to their family and church friends. So those two groups get a "hey look at what X is reading" message and a list of whatever the stuff was. There are many situations in which this is a bad thing (from the perspective of the teenager).

      And yes the school friends could have passed that information along to the original person's family and church friends, but that's an entirely different thing. They could also record a phone conversion and replay it in front of them (or just tell them what was said), which is entirely different from phone company deciding to include the family and church friends on the call...

    9. Re:Shared items are not private by novakyu · · Score: 1

      Meta data (like the fact that you showed interest in some other facts) is also data, just like set of sets is also a set.

      Your friend, just as you describe, could not only have passed on not only the information (probably an article or something) to other friends (let's call them "family"), but also the fact that *you* passed it on to him. After all, you made no effort to hide your own identity private when you shared that information, so why should your friend?

      Of course, some common sense and other obstacles may prevent that from happening, especially if it's as serious as keeping your sexual orientation to yourself and a close circle of friends, but the fact of the matter is, if any information (yes, the fact that you are interested in some piece of information is also information---about you) should really be private, you should treat it like it is: encrypt it.

      If you didn't take due diligence in keeping it private, you don't deserve privacy.

      P.S. Really, if you are going to live a double life, showing a part of yourself to your friends and not showing that same part to your family (enough that you are outraged if one part leaks into another) ... you should do a better job. Take up a pseudonym or something. Get a second account or something.

      P.S. BTW, way to bring in a bad analogy. It's illegal in most states to record a phone conversation without knowledge and permission (often for both parties), much less broadcasting it to everyone. It is, however, not illegal in most states to send a URL to other people (which is what essentially this "sharing" of Google Reader items is---the links were already public (no login required), and you knew it).

    10. Re:Shared items are not private by sholden · · Score: 1

      Did you intentionally miss the "just tell them what was said" part, or do you think that's illegal in most states too?

      I don't think Google has done anything illegal, they've done something with unexpected consequences. People thought that when they shared something with the people A, B, and C that it was only being shared with them. And yes person B could share it with other people, that's expected. What isn't expected is it being shared with people X, Y, and Z by google (ie. not by person A, or B, or C).

      The point isn't people trying to lead a double life, it's that they'd rather their exchange of porn sites with their friends now also be sent to their mother. They don't pretend to be different people, they just are just members of separate groups. They also don't expect complete privacy, if their mother wants to go searching she can probably find it all out - they just don't expect Google to take the initiative and put it on her reader screen.

    11. Re:Shared items are not private by novakyu · · Score: 1

      Let me just say ... you and I have a very different view on "double life".

      For me, if you couldn't tell your mother what you did with your friends or talked about with your friends, then you are living a double life. At least you are hiding enough aspects or life that the person you are at home is not the person you are at work or party.

      And, for me, if you are going to live that kind of life, the burden is on you to keep some sort of real barrier between the two sides of your life.

      But then again, that's me. You probably think everyone (including for-profit companies) should watch out for you lest you stumble ... even if you were a double agent. It's Google's fault for revealing what you shared with your contacts in CIA to your contacts in North Korea. You had absolutely no fault for not caring about your own privacy in the first place.

    12. Re:Shared items are not private by sholden · · Score: 1

      For me, if you couldn't tell your mother what you did with your friends or talked about with your friends, then you are living a double life. At least you are hiding enough aspects or life that the person you are at home is not the person you are at work or party.

      It's not that you couldn't tell, it's that you don't want to shove it down their throats, or you live a very open life and bore your friends and family senseless - depending on which way we take that. If you are using your RSS feed shares to exchange pornographic links with your friends, I can see why you mightn't want them to be force fed to your mother. Even though you have no problem with her knowing about them and you don't do anything to hide them. There's a difference between hiding something, and not wanting it forced down people's throats.

      I don't mind if my boss looks at my family photo album on the web. I don't really want it force fed to him though - mainly because it'd bore him to a coma which would make processing my pay problematic.

      You must also have some very limited career opportunities.

      I have a number of friends with whom I really can't discuss the details of my work day, since I'm not going to ask them to sign an NDA and they happen to be in a similar field. The company I work for sells a service to many clients - many of which are direct competitors (as in #1 and #2 in some niche that is famous for sending in the lawyers about IP issues on a shoot first basis), I'm sure not going to tell one what we are doing with the other. Does that mean I'm leading a double life? (obviously I'm not going to use google reader to send confidential material in the clear, I've drifted miles from the underlying story...)

      I have family with opposing political views, they know my views I know theirs. If I was using google reader to share political posts with like-minded friends I wouldn't want them turning up on the screen of those family members - not because I'm hiding (again they can take action and look and find with no issues) but because I don't want to pick an argument. Do you really tell everyone everything, even when they clearly aren't interested and you know it will cause distress.

      The athiest in the family will tell the religious Aunt that they don't believe in Jesus once and then both parties will probably just avoid the topic. Do you really believe that to not be leading a double life they would have to send all their anti-religious material that they are discussing with their friends to their Aunt.

      I guess "hiding" is the wrong word, it's being selective about what you force down other people's throats.

      You probably think everyone (including for-profit companies) should watch out for you lest you stumble

      No I don't, but thanks for the huge assumptive generalization.

  11. Misleading article by BlizzardandBlaze · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...No need to opt-in, no way to opt-out...

    Not exactly. According to Google:

    "You can hide items from any friend you don't want to see, and you can also opt out of sharing by removing all your shared items."

    1. Re:Misleading article by Snowmit · · Score: 1

      AND you can create "public" tags that are not auto shared.

      Friends from Google Talk are not auto-subscribed to your tags, but only to your shared items. (from here: http://www.google.com/support/reader/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=83000)

      --
      I have a lot of opinions about Cyborgs and Architects
    2. Re:Misleading article by Felipe+Hoffa · · Score: 1

      Removing everything doesn't sound like an opt-out mechanism, as not using the whole product wouldn't too. An opt-out mechanism should enable you to continue doing things as usual, instead of changing all your habits to adapt to an unwanted feature. Expanded point at another reply.

    3. Re:Misleading article by J1959 · · Score: 1

      Quoting text supposedly from Google isn't nearly has helpful as quoted text AND a link to the source web page.

  12. Yesterday.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  13. This would have been disastrous for me. by Satevis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm relieved that I don't use Reader. If I did, I would probably have been sharing atheist and NSFW articles with my spouse and some close friends. I work in politics, and if that stuff had gotten out to other people on my contact lists, my career would have been over. I don't trust Google anymore.

    1. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by mitchellsoft · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just like the rest of the politicians, huh? The only way you or your group can stay in "power" is to lie to the people. Keep the faith, I guess.

    2. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by mikesd81 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your spouse and close friends, I would think, would already know where you stand religiously and politically? God, oh sorry, knows my friends do.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    3. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I often read and send links to articles about religious stuff that doesn't reflect my beliefs. What if they know where you stand already and something like that made then doubt it? Everything in context is one thing. But you know as well as I do, if something suddenly appears outside your control, it is very difficult to keep it in context.

    4. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by mikesd81 · · Score: 1

      Well, personally I'm trying to always be educated. My friends would just assume I'm doing research. But if you have to be worried about what your friends think of what you're looking at and your beliefs, then you need new friends. At any given time I can look at an article about Oakland Raiders to Free Masons to Hitler to an article on a new protocol. I've frequently done long hour of insane research just to learn and never felt I had to justify it. Now of course it would get shady if you're looking at articles about drug production and such, but not about personal beliefs.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    5. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they will ask you about it.

      Bloody hell, if the fact that you read an article is going to upset them that much, then obviously they're not as close as you thought.

    6. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by Satevis · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For goodness' sake, didn't you people read what I wrote? My spouse and close friends know what I think of religion. It's the OTHER people on my contact list that I would be worried about. And, I don't lie about my non-faith. I just try not to insult people.

    7. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by EvilMole · · Score: 1

      Who were you sharing those items with before? Because you know that they all know your dirty little secret, and are likely to leak it?

    8. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by edwazere · · Score: 1

      Only try not to insult people if they promise to do the same.

      --
      -- You ain't seen me, right?
    9. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >For goodness' sake, didn't you people read what I wrote?

      You must be new here.

      This is Slashdot: Not only do we not read the articles, we don't read the summaries, and certainly don't read others' posts.

      At least, not before writing our own, while in eternal pursuit of the sacred First Post.

      Besides, its far more fun to respond to what we thought you wrote, than actually try to understand it.

    10. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a pretty funny doomsday scenario, but if you're actually using a public, free email system to communicate with political or otherwise influential contacts, you're an idiot. Might as well pass notes like back in grade school and hope noone reads them.

      I don't trust Google anymore.

      You can't trust anybody these days, at least not when it comes to internet activities. So don't. Too many people put too much information about themselves out there right into other people's hands without even giving a second thought as to what those people might do with it.

    11. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Man. Now I wish that I hadn't posted a comment in this thread, just so that I could mod you insightful.

    12. Re:This would have been disastrous for me. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The biggest misconception on the Internet is that someone doing something it doing it for the same reasons you might be. And lets be honest here. We aren't talking about friends who know you well, we are talking about anyone in your address book. So when the subordinate that the PHBs above you said to get rid of all the sudden finds out that you have been "educating yourself" about the free masons, Hitler and the KKK, he might put 2 and 2 together and claim you are a racist that hate "Black Jews" and that is why he was fired.

      That might not be a problem for you. But for some, it could be career ending as well as not true. Remember, the traditions way was to share with your friends, it changed to your business acquaintances and everyone else in your contact list. This isn't about people who know you and know better, it is about going from that kind of environment to one that it is entirely inappropriate for the content. And just because you don't have any contact like that in your address book, it doesn't mean that other wouldn't.

  14. A little more info by pembo13 · · Score: 3, Informative

    First of all, I had no idea what Google reader is: which already makes it a low privacy risk to me. So I did a google for Google Reader, and found this page: http://www.google.com/reader/view/#directory-welcome-page. I'm not sure if the message on the side was always there, but it clearly states that it shares the data with "friends". "friends" being people on your google talk list.

    I watched the video introduction about it, and it didn't seem to require personal data to use. Nor did the article summary say what the personal data that it was sharing is. So I'm going to guess it is sharing what ever it is that it is helping you get.

    What this says to me is that people are still working with the assumption that things online apps hosted by third-parties help them to get it still private. I don't trust my ISP, farless Google. My lack of trust however, doesn't prevent me from consuming their useful services.

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:A little more info by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Google Reader is an RSS aggregator. For quite some time now, it's had a sharing feature--that is, you can mark an RSS item as "shared." When you mark an item in this way, it appears on your Google Reader Share page. The share page looks like a blog page with all of the items you've shared (in their entirety--at least as far as the RSS summary goes.) Anyone who knows your unique URL can access your Google Reader Share page and see items you've decided to make public.

      The problem that some people have is that they made items public and gave the URL out to only a few people. They thought that because they used a public resource in this way (by minimizing who knew the user->url mapping), that they were maintaining their privacy. Then, when Google decided to effectively give the user->url mapping to anyone on your Google Talk list, these people felt betrayed.

      Everyone's also talking about GMail in all of this because Google Talk automatically updates your contacts list with any GMail account with whom you have corresponded using your own GMail address. If you use the same username for all of your Google applications, and so do many of your friends and family, this can mean that a large number of people now know your user->url mapping.

  15. Thanks by nobodymk2 · · Score: 1

    I just deleted all my gmail contacts to realize that I don't have anything in a shared folder. Thanks.






    Just kidding.

  16. I use Gtalk for workplace IM'ing by Malevolent+Tester · · Score: 2, Funny

    Does anyone know if it's possible to sign up to any of the job sites with Google Reader? Seems like a good way to drop a subtle hint to my boss.

    --
    If you haven't made a developer cry, you've wasted a day.
  17. They'll get over it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As with all features, there's going to be a bunch of people complaining about how it works, etc. After a while, the furor dies down, and new users come and actually like it.

    So yeah, a lot of people don't like our new feature, but they'll get over it.

  18. Yahoo?? by Locklin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    as things stand now I prefer having my email on yahoo/google than on a personal domain just for this reason.

    So you don't mind Yahoo pasting spam into your outgoing emails? Those little ads at the bottom of your emails from Yahoo (and msn) users are rather annoying. It's one thing to pay for the service by viewing ads, but it's another to pay for it by spamming non-users.

    --
    "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    1. Re:Yahoo?? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Those little ads at the bottom of your emails from Yahoo (and msn) users are rather annoying. Recently hotmail has been putting this line on outgoing messages:

      i'm is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a difference. Learn more

      Apparently "i'm" is some sort of charity-sounding thing. But to the average reader, it looks like the sender just typoed "I'm proud to present..."
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:Yahoo?? by dmizer · · Score: 1

      So you don't mind Yahoo pasting spam into your outgoing emails? Those little ads at the bottom of your emails from Yahoo (and msn) users are rather annoying. It's one thing to pay for the service by viewing ads, but it's another to pay for it by spamming non-users.
      That's easy to fix. Just use Thunderbird in tandem with the Webmail extension, set up your account so it uses your local SMTP server, and no more ads.
    3. Re:Yahoo?? by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 1

      So you don't mind Yahoo pasting spam into your outgoing emails?


      actually I pay for yahoo email (the fee is quite reasonable, and less than it would cost me to host a domain) so there is no spam in my outgoing emails.
      --
      -- the cake is a lie
  19. The issue is a change in semantics by ai2097 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As many readers have commented, this does not seem like such a big deal. Shared stuff being public? Who cares? Don't do it, ya morons! And so on.

    I don't use GMail, or Google's reader. However, from TFA and the complaints, it appears as though there was a service where you could aggregate and re-publish feeds through a link that was not (automatically) published anywhere. Google changed the semantics of this, to mean that these "shared" feeds are now automatically available to everyone in your contact list. This (rightfully) has pissed off many existing users, who have invested their time into a system that they must now abandon, because most people have the concept of "mixed company." You don't talk about certain topics in certain groups -- you might be fine making dirty jokes around your regular friends, for example, but you behave yourself when you're at a professional lunch.

    So, this is not a matter of not using it -- it's a matter of bait-and-switch. The rules got changed out from under the user's feet, and that leads to a feeling of betrayal in the case where embarrassing information gets leaked. Google gave the impression that you were just hanging out with your friends, and then let in your stuffy colleagues while you were in the middle of telling The Aristocrats Joke.

    1. Re:The issue is a change in semantics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't use GMail Why are you commenting on GMail then?
    2. Re:The issue is a change in semantics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the issue is apparent from the complaints, perhaps? Even if it weren't, last I checked, RTFA wasn't even a prerequisite to comment. ;)

    3. Re:The issue is a change in semantics by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      This is slashdot. Anybody can comment, even Anonymous Cowards like you.

    4. Re:The issue is a change in semantics by slashdaughter · · Score: 1

      Its a shame that the /. article is colored by hyperbole, because the nut of google's screwup here is worth paying attention to. Google Reader had an excellent "share" function prior to this new feature which encouraged users to provide friends/colleagues with an obfuscated URL or feed of any posts the user selected to share. The user was warned explicitly to only share that URL selectively if they wanted to keep their shares private.

      The new feature automatically took what users had previously been sharing selectively and broadcasted it to "friends" concocted from gmail contacts - where "friends" equates to anyone the user chatted with or exchanged x number of emails with. Many of these friends might include ex-employers, relatives, strangers from mailing lists, people you had flamewars with, or others whom you might not wish to share with. The only way to "un-friend" those people is to find and delete them in gmail (though often the share name doesn't match up) or delete all previously shared posts and discontinue sharing. For some "power users" of the old sharing regime this has created some awkward situations and necessitated a great deal of troubleshooting. Google's tone deaf response so far to legitimate user issues accounts for some of the anger and hyperbole in that thread.

      Google seems to be bootstrapping its existing services into a new social network by making broad assumptions about who your "friends" are and leaving users limited or oblique means of opting out.

      I suspect many users of gmail have no desire to be automatically enrolled in a new social network whose only opt-out involves abandoning the original service. If this Reader tempest is an indication of how Google plans to charge ahead in the social networking space, gmail users should start considering migrating to a new service.

      --
      "The U.S. Constitution - not perfect, but its better than what we have now"
    5. Re:The issue is a change in semantics by zota · · Score: 1

      There is more to it than semantics -- my feed of shared items automatically gets subscribed to my friends who use Google Reader, filling up their list of items to read.

      So to keep people from getting spammed with all my shares, I have to go to Settings -> Friends -> and click the "Hide" button next to each individual name. Why do I have to do this? Because creating a "Share" button next to each name was far too complicated an engineering challenge for a scrappy little company like Google?

      Google could have easily done it either way. But rather than give users the prior choice, they decided to treat Reader as if it were a sleazy Facebook app. Even worse, they led people to believe that it wasn't a sleazy Facebook app, and then one day... surprise! Personally I don't want my feed reader to start running around "biting chumps."

      From a privacy perspective, this is dumb but fairly minor. From the perspective of "respect for your users" or "good application design" or "not looking desperate" this is a really stupid move and a very bad sign of things to come.

  20. Shitty summary by xubu_caapn · · Score: 1

    This is such a bad summary. I have no idea what's going on from this summary.

    Others have called it misleading, but I wouldn't know, because I have no idea what it's talking about.

    --
    FYI: I don't know what you guys are talking about half the time.
  21. Google reader filtering this article??? by anatoxindustx · · Score: 1

    I decided to play around with Google reader because of this article. The first subscription I added was /. This article is not showing up in the subscriptions. I tried to force the refresh but still nothing. Maybe it will pop up in a few minutes.

    1. Re:Google reader filtering this article??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google Reader does exactly no filtering whatsoever.

    2. Re:Google reader filtering this article??? by WithLove · · Score: 1

      It's indeed there, posted 14 hours ago as of this posting.

  22. When even the original poster stops ReadingTFA by nick_davison · · Score: 3, Informative
    From the original poster:

    No need to opt-in, no way to opt-out. From the initial, very first comment in the thread they link to:

    You can hide items from any friend you don't want to see, and you can also opt out of sharing by removing all your shared items. Sure, it's a pain: having to disable all of your shared items if you don't, you know, want to share. But it's not exactly "no way to opt-out" when the very first thing they do is tell you how to.

    Now, had they been straight and called it for what it is, "You're auto opted in and the only way to opt out is a painful and destructive process that devalues other aspects." then that would be one thing. Blatantly misrepresenting to jump to the head of the wambulance queue - to the point where it's hard to believe it was anything other than deliberate - just devalues your point and loses you all credibility, even for your valid points.
    1. Re:When even the original poster stops ReadingTFA by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The no way to opt out wasn't the sharing. It was to opt out from sharing with just friends compared to everyone of your contacts. You see, your contacts might not be your friends and you might want to share to your friends but not all your contacts. Show when X turns into Y because of some arbitrary decisions, The opt out would be going back to X instead of option Z which is no sharing at all.

      The problem isn't really that they don't want to share, it is that they want to control who they share with.

    2. Re:When even the original poster stops ReadingTFA by Seumas · · Score: 1

      And what's next? By default, every time you compose an email with gmail, it is addressed to every single person you have ever communicated with via gmail and you must opt out individual recipients prior to sending your message?

    3. Re:When even the original poster stops ReadingTFA by Felipe+Hoffa · · Score: 1

      Yes, the summary isn't clear enough.

      But the "no opt-out" declaration is true: There is no way to turn off this feature and go back to your usual ways. And they turned it on without even asking you. If you shared with some friends and don't like to push your content to all your contacts you'll have to either delete all your shared stuff or delete all your e-mail contacts. That's no opt-out of this feature.

      And the receiver parties can't opt-out of this feature too. They'll have to opt-out of each new contact, but new contacts will keep on coming.

      And the interface is dangerous too. The "share" button is everywhere, it's too easy clicking it by mistake or by unawarely mis-typing the keyboard shortcut. You could even be seen as pushing some sick content without you even noticing it! Can you opt-out to prevent this happening? No.

      Fh

  23. Re:this is how it really began by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    chikety china, chinese chicken? you have?

  24. Isn't private data.. by cyberjock1980 · · Score: 1

    Isn't private data supposed to be... well.. private?

    I know, common sense need not apply here apparently.

    1. Re:Isn't private data.. by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Luckily, this data was made public by the Google Reader user when they clicked on the "Share" button.

  25. Why would you in the first place? by Duncan+Blackthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't know why anyone would store anything important or personally sensitive anywhere on the internet anyway, unless you store everything encrypted. I've had close friends of mine under standing orders for years running to never email me anything of a personally sensitive nature, or at least understand that if they do, transmitting it via the internet is completely insecure. I read more and more about "online apps" instead of local apps, and online data storage companies, and I have to roll my eyes because I have to assume that sooner or later someone, either criminals, the government, or the company itself, is going to go browsing through whatever you've got stored on their servers. Bottom line: You want privacy for your data? Store it locally, or better yet, offline.

    1. Re:Why would you in the first place? by gorbachev · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "I don't know why anyone would store anything important or personally sensitive anywhere on the internet anyway,"

      Because in this case the personally sensitive information is information about your interests and opinions that you may have selected to share only with a select few people, because you trust those people.

      However, Google has now decided to, without your express permission, share that same information with EVERYONE on your GMail contact list, which, I'm sure everyone knows, includes people who you may not even know.

      Now, imagine that you're a US Marine, who happens to be gay. You're using Google Reader to subscribe to a few RSS feeds about gay lifestyle. Your GMail contact list has many of your gay friends, and also many of your fellow marines, maybe including your superiors. You have chosen to share your gay lifestyle RSS feeds with your gay friends. However, since Dec 14th all your fellow Marines will also know about your gay lifestyle RSS feeds.

      I'm sure you're aware of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy? The Marine just lost his/her job.

      Just because someone dopehead at Google doesn't understand simple social networking concepts such as trust. It is a monumental screwup from Google's part.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
    2. Re:Why would you in the first place? by Duncan+Blackthorne · · Score: 1

      I get what you're saying, but it doesn't change what I said originally. I have a permanent account on Livejournal. About a year or so ago I stopped posting anything at all important about my life, and even then there are no entries that are publically accessible. I have no plans to ever post anything important or sensitive about myself there, ever, and I don't recommend to anybody that they do so either.

  26. headline should read... by pavera · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Google Reader begins sharing public data in a new way.

    These were not "private" feeds, they were publicly available URLs (although obfuscated).

    I'm not necessarily siding with Google on this one. I do think they should have thought this change of functionality out a little more, but the fact remains this data was already public. Comparing it to the Beacon scandal is not accurate at all.

  27. Re:this is how it really began by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    > Zonk restrained me on the living room floor while Hemos videotaped us. He used an elastrator to put a band around my sack.

    OK, you sick spamming fuck. That was still offtoppic and trollish, but I LOL'd. Modify the script to randomly pick a filthy story, use a database of common names to figure out which strings correspond to the names of characters in the stories, and let regular expressions do their magic.

  28. Uhh I don't get it... by nullhero · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Per Google Reader Group they are only sharing the information that you asked them to share. And only with those that you have used Google Talk. I share things in Google Reader because I want other people to know what I'm reading, and what I find interesting. No where is there any private data, unless you count the profile that you create, which you can limit the amount of data that you place on that.

    Google isn't sharing any private user data. If you don't want to share anything then don't click the share icon.

    --
    Save Pangaea!! Stop Continental Drift!!
    1. Re:Uhh I don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that I share certain information with some people and not others. Prior to this, I could chose to share only certain items with certain friends. Now, everything I've ever shared with anyone else is being published to everyone I know.

      It seems that Google assumes that everybody I know is a friend. In fact, most of the people I know are not friends; they are acquaintances, coworkers, former coworkers, ex-girlfriends, and even people who hate me.

      If Google had said that within a few days they would be releasing every crude joke and politically incorrect comment I ever shared with my wife to everybody I know, I would have stopped sharing everything.

      dom

    2. Re:Uhh I don't get it... by BokLM · · Score: 1

      Google isn't sharing any private user data

      It's not private data anymore, but it used to be before this change. That's why people are complaining.

  29. Labels are about it. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    You said you own your own domain that you use for your email account. Did you know that you can now forward all your email to Gmail, enjoy the benefits of a superb spam filter, and then use either Gmail's excellent web interface or an IMAP client?

    I carry a laptop everywhere, and I'm not willing to trust my email to someone's potentially keylogger-infested machine. Webmail buys me nothing except OS independence, and Thunderbird gives me that, if I cared.

    Did you know that you can now use Google to have your default return address be your custom domain name, so nobody even knows your using GMail?

    Doesn't change the from address. And if it did, that'd make me a bit more likely to be filtered, I'd bet.

    Did you know that GMail offers unlimited filters, so that every time some clown decides to add you to his BCC "Ron Paul 2008" list, you can click the filter button and never, ever hear from him again?

    I can do that anyway, though I usually tell people to stop adding me to these lists.

    But did you know that desktop clients not only have unlimited filters, but unlimited storage? It's true! All you have to do is buy more disk space if you ever come close to running out!

    All of this is free.

    I pay less than $10/year for a domain. Everything else is done by a server I have running in my house. I'd probably have this server anyway, just to play around with -- webhosting and such -- so Postfix is every bit as "free" to me as GMail. Moreso, because I don't have to put up with advertising. (Or spam -- my spamfilter is every bit as good as GMail's, as far as I can tell.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    1. Re:Labels are about it. by hab136 · · Score: 1
      I used to do about what you describe, except I had also set up Horde Imp webmail on my own server for those times I didn't have a laptop with me. After several botched upgrades (webmail, IMAP, OS level, you name it), then drive failures (hooray mirroring) and then finally a power supply failure, I got tired of maintaining the whole setup, and switched to Google Apps.

      Doesn't change the from address. And if it did, that'd make me a bit more likely to be filtered, I'd bet.

      With Google Apps (and similar offerings from Yahoo, etc) there is no @gmail.com address, just accounts at your custom domains. I had no trouble migrating from my Qmail+IMAP+SSL setup, and my mail is no more filtered than it used to be.

      You give up some control over your email - no more greylisting for me - but the convenience of someone else worrying about power, disks, backups, spam filtering, etc is too much to pass up for me, especially since it's free. If Google went bankrupt tomorrow, I don't even lose mail since it's already been downloaded through IMAP. In fact, I normally access my mail through my mail program or my phone (IMAP and SMTP over SSL); I almost never actually use the web interface except to create filters.
    2. Re:Labels are about it. by adolf · · Score: 1

      I pay less than $10/year for a domain. Everything else is done by a server I have running in my house.


      Is your time worth nothing?

      Yeah, I know. It's already set up and working. (I used to run Postfix at home, too.)

      So what happens when your house burns down, or your hard drive crashes? Sure, you've got (off-site) backups (right?), but even in the best scenario you'll still have half a day in fucking with finding/buying/assembling hardware, configuring a kernel for the new motherboard, restoring backups, and bootstrapping the system after the fire.

      Why make extra work for yourself?

    3. Re:Labels are about it. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Actually, this was setup when my time was worth nothing.

      In any case, I do enjoy spending the time, it keeps my admin skills sharp. And it actually isn't that much -- finding/buying/assembling hardware takes time, but "configuring a kernel for the new motherboard" is something I stopped doing the day I gave up Gentoo.

      I'd also have to spend this time anyway if anything were to happen to my desktop, which also runs Linux. And I'd also have this server anyway, whether or not I needed it for email.

      Anyway, my point was not that I wanted to do absolutely everything myself, but that Webmail, in particular, isn't incredibly useful to me. I have been considering getting a virtual host somewhere, so I don't have to worry about backups and such, but I still have almost as much control.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    4. Re:Labels are about it. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      With Google Apps (and similar offerings from Yahoo, etc) there is no @gmail.com address, just accounts at your custom domains.

      Yes, I know, we use that at work. And I admit, it is nice to not have to have even a part-time admin -- between that, a NAS, and Amazon's services (EC2, S3, etc), we basically have no IT costs -- occasionally a programmer might need to spend an hour on admin-related stuff.

      But I don't remember that being free. I wasn't the one who signed us up for it, but I imagine we must be paying something to have 25 gigs of storage per mailbox when everyone else has less than 5.

      the convenience of someone else worrying about power, disks, backups, spam filtering, etc

      Power is not really an issue -- the difference between one desktop and a desktop + server is not really significant.

      Disks only become an issue when one fails.

      Backups are an issue, and I actually don't have particularly good ones right now. I do have a plan for that, though.

      Spam filtering is completely a non-issue. I wrote a script, on the clock, for a company which was doing its own email. They never ended up using it, so I brought it home. It's really just a front-end for systems like Dspam and BogoFilter.

      And once you set up a good statistical filter, you don't really have to think about spam again. It always amazes me when I continue to see the old "Your idea will not work" form on Slashdot -- amusing as that is, it's also irrelevant now. Spam is a solved problem for me.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    5. Re:Labels are about it. by hab136 · · Score: 1

      But I don't remember that being free. I wasn't the one who signed us up for it, but I imagine we must be paying something to have 25 gigs of storage per mailbox when everyone else has less than 5.

      Google Apps has several levels of service and space. They do have a free option, since I've never paid them anything. I have 6 mb of space per account (same as regular Gmail).

      Power is not really an issue -- the difference between one desktop and a desktop + server is not really significant.

      Agreed, the cost is not an issue, I should have been more clear. Maintaining continuous power is an ongoing task (monitoring and testing UPSes, replacing batteries).

      Disks only become an issue when one fails.

      As mentioned, this has already happened to me. I don't feel like doing another recovery.

      Backups are an issue, and I actually don't have particularly good ones right now. I do have a plan for that, though.

      Disk failures are a matter of "when", not "if".

      All of these - power availability, hardware failure, backups - are solved problems, just as changing oil/brakes/etc on a car are solved. Knowing how to do something doesn't mean I actually want to do it.

      I don't change my own oil any more (even though I'm perfectly capable), and I don't spend time every week checking on my UPS, backups, and disk status. Let someone else do it.
    6. Re:Labels are about it. by vux984 · · Score: 1

      So what happens when your house burns down, or your hard drive crashes? Sure, you've got (off-site) backups (right?), but even in the best scenario you'll still have half a day in fucking with finding/buying/assembling hardware, configuring a kernel for the new motherboard, restoring backups, and bootstrapping the system after the fire.

      Why make extra work for yourself?


      So what happens when google gets bought out by/ merges with ... whomever... sony, time-warner, at&t... and suddenly the rules all start changing and the service starts getting worse?

      You can't move your @gmail address somewhere else. You can't get your email archves away from them. (Sure you can download a copy for you to use, but you can't take away their copies... so when they harvest it for marketing data to sell, or any of a 1000 other uses you are screwed.

      I can see contracting out your email management/storage/infrastructure to a 3rd party. I let my ISP provide me mail transport services too, after all. But its a reasonably decent contract -- with gmail the 'contract' amounts to "all your base are belong to us"... but you can use it for free (provided you look at our ads) ... until we change our minds... well.. what kind of idiot agrees to -that- kind of contract to host and manage their personal documents and communications records?

      People who don't value their privacy at all evidently, and somehow trust a mega-corporation to take care of them, when at the end of the day, google views gmail users the way a shepherd views sheep. You have to feed them to get their wool. But if they can get the same wool with cheaper feed they'll do it... if they can figure out a way to get the sheep to keep giving wool, and pay for their own feed by working in the salt mines in their free time, they'll do that too. Enjoy being a sheep. Baaaa... ;)

    7. Re:Labels are about it. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      I don't change my own oil any more (even though I'm perfectly capable), and I don't spend time every week checking on my UPS, backups, and disk status. Let someone else do it.

      Do you hire someone to come to your house and check on the status of your desktop machine? How do you back it up?

      Or have you actually migrated everything you do online?

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    8. Re:Labels are about it. by hab136 · · Score: 1

      Do you hire someone to come to your house and check on the status of your desktop machine? How do you back it up?

      I maintain my own desktop. You have to maintain your desktop whether or not you maintain a server so you can of course argue that the additional server maintenance is no big deal, but in my opinion desktop maintenance is considerably easier than server maintenance.

      Most desktop failures are immediately obvious, whereas server things like mail flow have to be checked on - you might have no new messages because nobody's emailed you, or because your mail server isn't delivering messages properly. If my desktop is powered off while I'm away for a week, no problem. If my server dies on my second day of vacation, that's a bad thing.

      For backups my desktop has mirrored drives, plus scheduled backups to an external drive. Also my phone has a copy of my email, contacts, etc.

      Or have you actually migrated everything you do online?

      Just about. Email, web, scheduling are all online, and I actually wind up accessing these on my phone more than my desktop.

      I still do my finances local, and the occasional document. Video games are local. Work is done on a work computer, which is maintained by the company.

      I realize that moving to "my crap is on the network" instead of "my crap in on my computer" is not for everyone, especially if one enjoys running a server. I used to, and so I did; now I don't.
    9. Re:Labels are about it. by adolf · · Score: 1

      Easy.

      I don't use a @gmail.com address.

      I just point my domain's MX records at Google's inbound SMTP servers. They handle mail for the entire domain. (www.google.com/a)

      If Gmail starts to suck, I'll just log into my domain registrar, point the MX records somewhere else, and move my mail over to the new host using IMAP. Just like I would with any other host.

      Any other concerns?

    10. Re:Labels are about it. by adolf · · Score: 1

      (I'll reply in advance.)

      Oh, yeah - that other concern. Privacy.

      There isn't anything in my mail which I would mind being shared in a demographic or advertisement-targeting sense, and there is no language in Google's TOS which says that they'll use it otherwise. (There's plenty of stuff which I'd rather never see in a courtroom, but then again nothing withstands a subpoena.)

      So what if they can find a way to make money by selling demographics based on the content of my mail? I use IMAP with Thunderbird, so I never see their targeted ads, yet they've got to make money somehow. Demographics harm me none.

      Now of course they include a clause saying they can can change those terms at their whim. But what provider, these days, does not include such verbiage? (Please be specific.)

      As long as the terms are subject to change, any provider (of anything) can decide at some point that they'll suddenly start doing something awful with your data.

      This being the case, I think I'll stick with the path of least resistance. I feel rather confident in saying that Gmail is no more evil than anything else in this context.

    11. Re:Labels are about it. by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Uh, yeah. That lets you take your new inbound mail somewhere else, which is a definite plus. It doesn't get anything they've already got off of their servers though. This was always the bigger issue.

      Have you read and agreed to these terms of service...? Because you've already violated them:

      **Customer may not publicly disclose the existence of this agreement or its contents without prior written approval from google.**

      Some of the other terms are fun too...

      Google on the other hand may tell any one it wants, publish it in lists, show screenshots of it, incorporate the customers brand marks in presentations, etc.

      Google can change the agreement any time it wants by updating this document. Customer is responsible for reading it regularly to keep abreast of any changes...

      Google shall own all rights, title, and interest, without limitation all IP rights... including but not limited to all technology, information, CONTENT....[caps mine]

      Google can remove any content it deems objectionable.

      Google will provide 'commercially reasonable efforts' to provide access to the service. -and-
      Google shall have the right to change, suspend or discontinue any aspect of the Service at any time, including hours of operation and availability of any Service feature, without notice and without liability.

      Which is to say, google will provide access to the service as long as it wants to and finds it profitable. If, one day, google changes its mind, the servers can go dark without any notice, and any data stored on the servers is google's, and we hope you made your own backups of anything you might want to keep because we have no obligation to give you any copies.

    12. Re:Labels are about it. by adolf · · Score: 1

      Yep.

      If there is a substantially less-evil provider (and, no, the local mom-n-pops don't count) out there, whose agreement includes NO language stating that the terms are subject to change at any time, then I'm still waiting to hear about it.

    13. Re:Labels are about it. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Most desktop failures are immediately obvious, whereas server things like mail flow have to be checked on

      I'd argue that both desktops and servers contain things that, while I admit I'm not monitoring as diligently, do have to be maintained. (Though not, as you said, on vacation.) For instance, you probably want to do some sort of SMART monitoring on both, and both could benefit from a UPS, so you'd want to monitor that. (At least, I'd much rather have something other than extremely high-pitched beeping when it goes off.)

      you might have no new messages because nobody's emailed you, or because your mail server isn't delivering messages properly.

      I rarely have no new messages, given there's almost always some notice from Slashdot. Oh, and spam. It doesn't show up in my inbox, but if my spam folder was completely empty, I'd know something's up.

      But you do make a good point.

      Just about. Email, web, scheduling are all online, and I actually wind up accessing these on my phone more than my desktop.

      Ah, I see. (Just so you know, that wasn't meant to be sarcastic -- I realize people can go completely online, it just doesn't seem common.)

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    14. Re:Labels are about it. by vux984 · · Score: 1

      If there is a substantially less-evil provider (and, no, the local mom-n-pops don't count) out there, whose agreement includes NO language stating that the terms are subject to change at any time, then I'm still waiting to hear about it.

      You'll pay for it of course, but you can have a personalized contract with set SLA levels, stating the terms, with pretty much any decent provider, even most of the big ones.

      And its not that hard to find a reasonable service that will at least agree to not ever use your data except to deliver / host it for you, and to give you written notice 30 days prior to a change in the terms of service.

    15. Re:Labels are about it. by adolf · · Score: 1

      You'll pay for it of course, but you can have a personalized contract with set SLA levels, stating the terms, with pretty much any decent provider, even most of the big ones.

      If I can't get a contract that promises not to change without having one written one up special, then the option may as well as not exist. E-mail will never be a substantial portion of my personal spending.

      And its not that hard to find a reasonable service that will at least agree to not ever use your data except to deliver / host it for you, and to give you written notice 30 days prior to a change in the terms of service.

      Uh-huh.

      Everyone keeps saying that. I've asked for specifics two times now, and all I get in return is this sort of postulate hand-waving. So I guess it doesn't exist.

      But nevermind that: If the they can always change the terms whenever they want, then what fucking difference does it make what the they are today?

      The point is, that with such language, all companies might as well all be equally evil. These contracts can all be summarized as: "We agree to handle your email, unless we change our minds. You agree to follow our rules, which we can create at a whim. Meanwhile, we'll be doing whatever the fuck else we want, although we might decide to let you know first."

      I'll stick with Google. Same evil clause, plus excellent pricing and good service.

    16. Re:Labels are about it. by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Everyone keeps saying that. I've asked for specifics two times now, and all I get in return is this sort of postulate hand-waving. So I guess it doesn't exist.

      Don't be an idiot. Maybe, just maybe, these sorts of companies aren't self-serve, sign yourself up over the internet, agree to the terms hosted on our website, and interact with our automated systems. We hope we never speak to you, like google. So when you want to 'prove to some annoying slashdotter they exist, its hard, because you can't point them to their terms of service, because they don't have one on the web...because its all in the SLA you agree to when you contract with them.

      Then again, even 'pure web based companies' like ync.net provide a promise of two-weeks notice prior to any changes to their terms, and a privacy policy that asserts essentially that your data is your data.

      I guess these companies don't exist, though.

      But nevermind that: If the they can always change the terms whenever they want, then what fucking difference does it make what the they are today?

      Its predominatly the ToS for anonymous automated web based systems, but its hardly the general rule. No "real" contract would EVER have language like that.

    17. Re:Labels are about it. by adolf · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to invest the time or the money in finding a local provider and negotiating a contract for the dozen or so personal emails I handle daily. It's just not going to happen.

      Besides, I don't need a human being to hold my hand while explaining to me the features and services offered by their fucking IMAP server, nor to do me the favor of "setting up my account". As you know, none of this is rocket science.

      I also don't want a human being to be there for me in tech support. I just want them to keep their side of things to working and communicate outwardly when stuff breaks, so that I don't need to call technical support just to tell them that their stuff is broken, which is the only reason I'd ever call them anyway.

      And I don't even want a human being to discuss billing problems with. In fact, I don't want a bill at all.

      So, I see no reason to pay for these warm bodies, as they have nothing to offer me.

      Some background: I'm also not a very big fan of welfare, I buy almost all of my computer-related stuff from largely human-less operations like Newegg, and I order pizza online instead of over the phone because I can usually save a couple of dollars by doing so.

      Even in matters that must involve a salesman, like buying a new range, I will negotiate away as much of his commission as possible and gladly walk away from a deal if I feel he's being paid too much for his disservice. I don't need nor want to be sold to; I need left the fuck alone while I select my appliance. All I need a salesman for is to say "Yes," "No," or "Sign here," none of which are acts worthy of a tall commission.

      I'd be perfectly happy if there were a credit card reader next to each appliance, instead of a bunch of bored salespeople hanging around like vultures. Slide the card through, and a little screen would ask what day you'd like it to be delivered.

      Current trends indicate that I am not alone in this mindset.

      I also firmly believe that any company professing to provide any manner of "Internet Service" ought to have a substantial amount of information about such service available on the Internet. Any company which, as we roll into 2008, has not yet figured out how to do this reeks completely of not fucking getting it, and deserves none of my money.

      But at least, there's finally some hope for your argument. "ync.net" == something other than hand-waving. That wasn't so hard, now was it?

      But even then, two weeks' notice is insufficient, IMO -- there's still potential for evil within the fact that the contract still can be changed without any discussion, and that through inaction a user will be bound by the new terms.

      Though it looks like a friendly enough company today, that can always change. It might even be headed south right now; I found this gem in ync's ToS:

      User is prohibited from soliciting any of ISP's users to become users of other competitive services. Aw, shucks. Now one can't even freely discuss different ISP/web hosts/colos/backup providers without being fired by one.

      Google also looks like a friendly enough company today, and if that ever changes, it will only take me a few minutes to switch the domain over to my Dreamhost account while I find it a more permanent home.

      Meanwhile, Google's own ToS says very plainly that my stuff will remain my stuff: Google does not own third party content used as part of the Service, including the content of communications appearing on the Service. Title, ownership rights, and Intellectual Property Rights in and to the content accessed through the Service are the property of the applicable content owner and may be protected by applicable copyright or other law. (Emphasis added.)

      I guess that I am still unconvinced that Google is substantially more evil than anything else out there within reason.

    18. Re:Labels are about it. by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to invest the time or the money in finding a local provider and negotiating a contract for the dozen or so personal emails I handle daily. It's just not going to happen.

      And here I thought all along we were talking about -business- email. And business documents. You know stuff where it might actually be important to you.

      But even then, two weeks' notice is insufficient, IMO -- there's still potential for evil within the fact that the contract still can be changed without any discussion, and that through inaction a user will be bound by the new terms.

      That's the nature of the beast. You claim you -want- a service where you never have to talk to anybody, that provides generic self-service.

      Then if they want to modify a term of the contract they've got to hold the whole thing up while they suddenly contact and "discuss" the change with you and every other customer they have? Its NOT going to happen.

      Either you get personalized service, or you get anonymous generic service. And if you opt for anonymous generic service, you're not going to be in a position to negotiate terms that are in your interest. To get a contract with terms that are actually favorable to YOU, where they can't change it on you at their whim, you'll need to be more involved with your service than 'click here to agree'. The best your going to get is 30 days notice by email. Its just that simple.

      You also spoke about how you'd like to live in a world where products had card readers so you can buy from them... but in the same sentence you spoke about negotiating away the salesreps comission...same thing... you can only do that when your actually given a salesrep. And don't tell me the card reader is going to always be selling at the best possible price. Because it won't be.

      Its the salesrep who will price match a competitor a particular item. Its the sales rep who'll bend more if your buying multiple items.

      But at least, there's finally some hope for your argument. "ync.net" == something other than hand-waving. That wasn't so hard, now was it?

      This is /. I -really- shouldn't have to use google for you.

      Google also looks like a friendly enough company today, and if that ever changes, it will only take me a few minutes to switch the domain over to my Dreamhost account while I find it a more permanent home.

      Yes. I realize that. However, you don't get to pull your data off their servers. That's theirs do with as they please... whether its harvest it, sell it, or turn it over to the government...except you say...

      Meanwhile, Google's own ToS says very plainly that my stuff will remain my stuff

      Which is worthless because they can change it at any time without notice. Its -your- responsibility to keep checking it to find out if anything has changed. Does it still say that? Better go check...

      I use google services too, for throwaway stuff, and as a backup, in case for whatever reason someone is unable to email me due to a downed router on the net or im in that 0.0001% where my service is down and I -need- to get something through... I also use their search, and I've even used 'docs' once when I needed to whip up a word doc on the road... but I wouldn't become dependant on it.

    19. Re:Labels are about it. by adolf · · Score: 1

      Either you get personalized service, or you get anonymous generic service. And if you opt for anonymous generic service, you're not going to be in a position to negotiate terms that are in your interest. To get a contract with terms that are actually favorable to YOU, where they can't change it on you at their whim, you'll need to be more involved with your service than 'click here to agree'. The best your going to get is 30 days notice by email. Its just that simple.

      Indeed, it is that simple.

      You must realize by now that the main point of all of this verbiage is that I'm simply attempting to convey that I'm perfectly happy with Google, and their terms of service. Their long history of not doing evil things provides strong reinforcement of the notion that they won't be doing evil things in the future.

      I mean: They might be bloody huge, at this point, but they've so far never acted even a little bit like Apple, Microsoft, or SCO.

      For these reasons, I feel rather comfortable with the fact that Google can change the terms at their whim, though I doubt that I would be with most other companies.

      This level of trust, in combination with my refusal to pay for people to needlessly exist, counts very positively toward Google's offering in my own opinion.

      I think the primary reason that we seem to disagree here is that you don't understand their terms of service, yourself.

      I'll refer back to an earlier posting provided by you:

      You said: Google on the other hand may tell any one it wants, publish it in lists, show screenshots of it, incorporate the customers brand marks in presentations, etc.

      They've retained for themselves a very limited right to my brand marks for announcements and publications, sure, but they'll never use it. It's for bragging rights: To publish a client list, or to proclaim that even $big_entity (as recognized by their logo) uses the service. And so what? If I had, say, IBM as a staple client of my own business, I'd sure want to use their logo in my promotional material, and I'd be kicking myself if I hadn't included such a clause in my initial agreement with them.

      As it stands, my own marks provide them with zero value. If it turns out that they might have value in the future (after I become insanely rich, or something), more power to 'em.

      You said: Google shall own all rights, title, and interest, without limitation all IP rights... including but not limited to all technology, information, CONTENT....

      To which I can only rebut by putting it into context:

      Google and its licensors shall own all right, title and interest, including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights (as defined below) relating to the Service (and any derivative works or enhancements thereof), including but not limited to, all software, technology, information, content, materials, guidelines, and documentation. Customer shall not acquire any right, title, or interest therein, except for the limited use rights expressly set forth in the Agreement. Any rights not expressly granted herein are deemed withheld. "Intellectual Property Rights" means any and all rights existing from time to time under patent law, copyright law, semiconductor chip protection law, moral rights law, trade secret law, trademark law, unfair competition law, publicity rights law, privacy rights law, and any and all other proprietary rights, and any and all applications, renewals, extensions and restorations thereof, now or hereafter in force and effect worldwide. Google does not own third party content used as part of the Service, including the content of communications appearing on the Service. Title, ownership rights, and Intellectual Property Rights in and to the content accessed through the Service are the property of the applicable content owner and may be protected by applicable copyright or other law. Customer agrees not to, or to allow others to: (i) adapt, translate, or modify the Software; (ii) decipher, decompil

  30. That's not Google's choice. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    While it may be smart to be honest and straightforward with people you're close to, it's no more Google's right to prevent that than it is their right to sell your personal info to spammers.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  31. "Share" used to be different. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    "Share", in this context, did not always imply sharing with the entire world.

    Yes, it perhaps wasn't the smartest choice by a lot of these people, but Google's actions, and specifically, their lack of a real response, is exactly the kind of "evil" they were trying to avoid becoming.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  32. Sadder... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm not trying to justify Google here, but...

    You're in politics, and porn and atheism are enough to end your career.

    Not your fault, I'm sure, but that is sad.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  33. It's not the feature... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...it's how it was rolled out. Things that were not shared have now become shared.

    If you actually work for Google, it sounds like your attitude is part of the problem.

    Yes, the feature is cool. Yes, people will get used to the new way things work. No, it still was not OK how you rolled it out.

    I mean, come on. You're fucking Google. You're supposed to be the best engineers in the world. So tell me, how hard would it be to have a "shared" option, and a third "publish" option which was off by default? And then to prompt people on their first login after introducing "publish" whether they wanted their stuff to be shared or published by default, and whether they wanted that change to affect all their shared stuff?

    That took me, what, ten seconds to think up, and less than a minute to type, and this isn't even my fastest keyboard.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  34. Mr. Hand was right by mcmonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful
    You are all on dope.

    You give Google your private data, while they keep it private.

    Are the folks at Google like the magical elves that come out at night and fix shoes? No, Google is a business. The folks who own Google do it for the money. You give Google your private data, and they mine the stuff out of it. There's nothing private about it. Your private data, after you give it to Google, isn't private any more.

    1. Re:Mr. Hand was right by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      not that this story has anything to do with private data

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    2. Re:Mr. Hand was right by BokLM · · Score: 1

      Your private data, after you give it to Google, isn't private any more.

      That's wrong. Or at least that's not what google says, and not what many people think. But if it becomes true, then I guess many people will leave google for an other provider that respects your privacy and does not share your private data with the world.

    3. Re:Mr. Hand was right by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Rather than leaving for another provider, it would be even better to stop trusting all the providers and to encrypt by default. The trick is overcoming inertia.

  35. Moderate the article by vikstar · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I want to be able to moderate articles. Especially ones like this.

    --
    The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
  36. Yowza, another kdawson turd by fluxrad · · Score: 2, Informative

    Funny, I actually didn't really care what /. editor posted which story until I read a couple of stinkers six months ago in which half the posters pointed out what a crappy editor kdawson was. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, then, to find this bit of FUD posted by the infamous editor as well.

    Seriously, the first link is to a self-referenced Slashdot Journal. The second link is to a google groups thread discussing how google shares with your friends data that you've opted to share with your friends!!!

    Seriously. This article is crap.

    --
    "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
    1. Re:Yowza, another kdawson turd by Myopic · · Score: 1

      +5, Insightful

      yeah, i've heard biatches about all the editors from time to time, but kdawson definitely has a different approval style than the other editors, and that difference is, imho, a bad difference.

    2. Re:Yowza, another kdawson turd by Felipe+Hoffa · · Score: 1

      Fluxrad, you have good /. karma so you should be able to see there are a lot of annoyed people with this feature.

      The problem is not that Reader shares content with your friends, it's that it pushes it to all your e-mail contacts. Even to people that had no way to access this information previously.

      And kdawson just had to pick the best content available at the moment. It wasn't only his opinion, as now /. has a "democratic" way to push up or down articles. Look at the Firehose.

      Fh

  37. Responsibility, Freedom, and Technology by HobophobE · · Score: 1

    You own your life. That is, the actions you take have repercussions, which you have to deal with.

    And that extends to the online world, too. My website, I know what I put on there could (theoretically :o) be read by someone and cause a reaction in my life. I choose to put a widget on it that any item I share in Google Reader is (up to the limit on the widget) displayed on my site. I take these things into account when I choose to put something on that site, when I choose to share an item in Google Reader. I choose to make my shared items public (mostly Slashdot stories anyway).

    But I do the same thing when I'm talking on the phone with someone, or interacting with them in person. I try to consider what I'm saying and how I'm saying it so that understanding is clear, so that information is easily acquired and assimilated.

    And guess what, I'm doing that right now too, here on Slashdot responding to the article.

    What is the big deal? There are some details I feel should be private and some of those details are protected by contract or law. The rest of them are at least plausibly available.

    You don't know my blood pressure, you don't know my weight (err, I don't even know my blood pressure and weight), but looking through someone's Slashdot comments you can probably learn some details about their life. Same with their website, etc.

    Ultimately it's what you're comfortable with. If you want to separate groups of friends or friends & family make another gmail account.

    But above all remember this: if you believe your behavior is reasonable, own it. Whatever the reaction of others, good or bad, it's your life. If your wife or husband, son or daughter, mother or father, boss or coworker, friend or enemy has an opinion they'll express it. It may be kind or harsh. At the end of the day you may suffer for being who you are, but that is always better than suffering for being who you aren't.

    And you shouldn't feel bad because others don't approve of you, like I said, as long as your behavior is reasonable.

    --

    -HobophobE
    Nothing laughs forever.
    1. Re:Responsibility, Freedom, and Technology by BokLM · · Score: 1

      Yes, we already know we can share public things, and there is nothing wrong about that, that's not the problem we're talking about here. The thing we're talking about here is when some data that used to be private become shared.

  38. wtf? by wandernotlost · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The headline and summary of this article are not only false, but probably illegal slander. In no way can the sharing of "shared" data be considered "sharing private data," whether or not some users fooled themselves into thinking it was private. If anything, this is a benevolent move on Google's part because it makes users more aware of the fact that data they are explicitly making public is, in fact, public.

    So fuck you, Slashdot, for lying to me and wasting my time.

  39. Tag request by Vexorian · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    journalplug

    --

    Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    1. Re:Tag request by Vexorian · · Score: 1

      The submitted article is literally a shameless journal plug, but my whining gets modded off topic, I think flamebait or overrated would do better, please learn to mod down posts correctly.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  40. TEH DUNT BE TEH EVIL!!!!11!!1! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    OMG, Y U H8 TEH GOOGEL? DEY DUNT BE TEH EVIL DERE MOTO EVEN BE TEH DUNT BE TEH EVEL!1!!

    Teh Googel is not teh MiKKKr0$$$l0th, so dey kant be teh evel!!!!

  41. When Google Strikes by RomulusNR · · Score: 1

    Gotta love the woman who insists her christmas was ruined because her brother saw her political opinions that he didn't approve of. Is it Google's fault that her and her family has serious respect and acceptance issues? I could have seen if, perhaps, a boss saw this sort of thing, but not one's own brother. You'd expect Bro already knew she was whatever she was, and wouldn't have been surprised by her shared posts. It's not like Google forced him to read her share list, either. If she was hiding her politics from her family... geez, whose fault is that exactly? If her family is so unaccepting, the question of "why spend christmas with them?" comes to mind.

    --
    Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
    1. Re:When Google Strikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of us have to tip-toe around family more than others. The thing to understand here isn't whether or not the brother discovered something about the woman that he finds disdainful, but rather that he went from actively not reading her feed to having her feed delivered to him.

      To her, it's information that was let loose. Yes, this is the risk associated with using internet apps, but that's besides the point. The point is that, to the brother, she practically threw it at him.

      Let's say a hypothetical homosexual actively does not read anti-homosexual hate speech. Then, all of a sudden, it comes his way unbidden. It doesn't much matter to him whether or not his mother sent it via an e-mail or was unintentionally sharing it via a feed. He could have gone forever without reading it but it was delivered right to him.

  42. Gmail's affinity index by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google is calculating your affinity towards certain individuals in your address book
    Data is here
    http://video.google.com/data/contacts
    Have to be logged into Google

  43. They differentiated private from non private by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you read the article (joke joke; please don't hit me :-) you would know that they were differentiating "private" links from public ones. The private ones were shared only with chosen people. What they have done now is to make all the "private" links public without warning. That's definitely bad. It's an excusable mistake possibly, but when they don't react immediately to complaints it becomes a serious problem. Many people who can't set up their own document and sharing mechanisms rely on services such as Google. These commercial shared services should be legally responsible for the effects of all their actions.

  44. seriously, grow the f**k up /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    so

    google will share your public shared list with people you know (and only with people you explicitly know, not "everyone", and only when you actively share it.)

    seriously, what the hell is the problem with this?

    you people need to grow up.

  45. Good Bye Google Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm quitting Gmail, notebook and my web history account. God knows what will happen when they share my private data with my future wife and kids. For others I do not really care.

  46. Sounds like fun for the whole family ;) by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Funny

    BTW, if you were a closet homo, would you want you mom and dad to see that you were sharing Gay Marriage articles with your lovers?


    Heh. This sounds like it could be fun, actually, and I'm not even gay. I'm almost tempted to finally get a GMail account and start sharing some gay stuff just to see if mom will try to give me advice about _that_ too.

    Hmm, actually, now I'm getting even better ideas. Do they have some feeds about, dunno, bestiality or such?
    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Sounds like fun for the whole family ;) by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      Heh. This sounds like it could be fun, actually, and I'm not even gay. I'm almost tempted to finally get a GMail account and start sharing some gay stuff just to see if mom will try to give me advice about _that_ too.

      Hmm, actually, now I'm getting even better ideas. Do they have some feeds about, dunno, bestiality or such? And if she did have good advice about that, how much SAN loss do you think you'd be in for?
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    2. Re:Sounds like fun for the whole family ;) by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      No, I have no feeds at all. But since your playing, I would like to remind you that your perspective employer could end up getting these feeds from you. It may help or hurt your chances of getting a job in the future. So tread lightly and make sure your aware of actions today being found tomorrow.

      Imagine what the prosecution would do with that when your drunken one night stand feels hurt because you won't dump your girlfriend and stay with her after she gave herself to you and claims date-rape or something. Then the prosecution finds bestiality and weird sex feeds associated with you and claims your a pervert that deserves conviction whether you innocent or guilty.

  47. what shit by pmsyyz · · Score: 1

    Stories like this are why I have virtually stopped reading slashdot.

    --
    Phillip
    1. Re:what shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dumbo. This has happened. My friends have seen what I do.

    2. Re:what shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh no, you friends have seen what you do.

      So? Maybe they weren't really your friends after all.

  48. Google Reader isn't secure anyway by nguy · · Score: 1

    Unlike other Google products, Google Reader doesn't work over SSL, so it's not secure to begin with.

    Google Reader has a nice user interface, but until that gets fixed, I'm not using it at all.

  49. No! by baboonlogic · · Score: 1

    I was sharing articles with my other gmail account and effectively using shared items as a tag... I am in trouble... If what the summary says is true this is bad form from Google...

    Crap! I gotta check what my contacts might have seen... :(

  50. Re:this is how it really began by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A--- Will not read again!

  51. No offense by Vacardo · · Score: 0

    But I call bullshit on this one. People can't be THAT dubious to be caught pants-down by this. I tried for 2 hours to get my partner and I connected together so I could share interesting articles with her, but gmail and reader wouldn't acknowledge the relationship.

  52. To respond to half the complaints here: by mporcheron · · Score: 1

    1. You can't remove shared items easily.
    Yes, you can. Settings -> Friends -> Clear Shared Items

    2. Your friends can see everything
    Only things you share, yes. But whats the point in "sharing" them if no one can see them?

    3. Your mom might see your shared items.
    Block your mom from doing so, Settings -> Friends -> Hide (Next to mom's name)

    4. You're affraid of Google Reader
    Well, export your subscriptions and use another product. Simple.

    1. Re:To respond to half the complaints here: by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 1

      And it's not all the contacts in Gmail, it's the ones you've chatted with - likely to be a much smaller number.

  53. Facebook is worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Facebook shares messages that you sent to a person with all of your mutual friends. That's what I call scary.

  54. Way off base by mike3k · · Score: 1

    You're way off base. First of all, You need to explicitly invite people as friends in reader. Second, only items you explicitly share are visible. When I share an item I've always assumed I was sharing it with everyone.

  55. An opportunity for Google by DaftShadow · · Score: 1

    This is an opportunity for a smart Google leader to step up and drive the way towards greater personal control. One of the things that plagues soooo many sites, social sites, wikis, etc etc etc, is the concept of "double-tier" information access: 1) Publicly visible, 2) Not.

    But life isn't like that, and there is no reason that users should be forced into those two simple camps.

    If Google stepped up and became one of the first major "social" sites to offer fine-grained privacy and sharing controls, it would find itself a very unique feature with a lot of potential customer draw.

    - DaftShadow

  56. Irrelevant info by l2718 · · Score: 1

    Please take a moment to brush up on your history before you make such un-informed posts. If you join right now they tell you what the current behaviour is: "share" means with all contacts. That's an acceptable behaviour. Nothing wrong with it, execapt that the "sharing" feature is not new, and before it had a different behaviour: the shared feeds appeared on a "secret" URL, and you had control over who could see the feeds. So, if you "shared" feeds before, and didn't notice the new announcement, suddenly a lot of people were told of your share -- people who you may have not wanted to know. That is a serious privacy concern.

    1. Re:Irrelevant info by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      Then we disagree that this is even a privacy concern. There's nothing secret about telling other people anything over the internet.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
  57. The definition of "friends" changed. by argent · · Score: 1

    According to the article the problem is not that the data was being shared with "friends", but Google changed the definition of "friends".

  58. Pretty bad if you were sharing items by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you weren't using the shared-items feature then it's no big deal. If you want to use it then they've broken it pretty badly my making the stupid assumption that everyone you've ever emailed is a close friend that you would show anything to.

    The people who are really screwed are the ones who were sharing things with a small group of close friends and suddenly had their private suggestions opened up to their relatives, cow-orkers, and creepy stalkers as well. The more people you got into Google, the worse it is, so they're pissing off their own best proponents.

  59. Probably the other way around by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    And if she did have good advice about that, how much SAN loss do you think you'd be in for?


    Eh, this is mom we're talking about. It's more the other way around. I'd worry about sanity loss if she _didn't_ offer some advice on a topic. Even if she has to google it before calling.
    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  60. How to target sharing to different contact groups by Oktember · · Score: 1

    Many people are overlooking the fact that you can share specific tags (and each of those shared tags will have its own URL and RSS feed). So, if you want to share stuff with just your family, tag the articles/feeds with a "family" tag, mark it shared and give them the URL. Likewise, do the same for work colleagues, friends, etc. You're not just stuck with one global shared feed for all your contacts and nothing else.

  61. Well, that's good for the defense too, then by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    Well, that's good for the defense too then. I can just see it. "Your honour, as you can clearly see from my list of topics and interests, I'm attracted to wooly farm animals and big sweaty guys who look like a gorilla. Miss Wossherface is, I would guess, a fine representative specimen of a human female, if you're into _that_ kind of thing, but she'd need wool and horns before I'd be _that_ interested in her. No offense, miss. I mean, seriously, does she look even remotely like anything in those photos? I can't see myself even trying too much persuasion on her, even if I were drunk out of my mind, much less something like date rape. Now if she had hooves and a tail... mmmm... where was I? Right. Plus, your honour, I would like it to be noted that I don't support rape even with animals. I like it all between consenting mammals, and I know which 'baah' means 'no.'" ;)

    Well, now seriously, it was a joke. And if I have to explain it, I guess it already failed to be funny.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Well, that's good for the defense too, then by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Then the judge would say, so, you can close your eyes and make believe you are with the ones you want. I do it every other night and twice on Saturdays.

      I know it was a joke, It was funny. It also would be funnier if you actually did it. That is why I said "But since your playing" before my remarks. Imagine the reaction of a god fearing mother who thinks she done something wrong in raising her son. But in the case you (or someone else) would actually do it, I wanted to warn you (whoever), jokes can come back to haunt you in very unsuspecting ways.

  62. Sounds like C++ by pablodiazgutierrez · · Score: 1

    Where your friends can see your privates.

  63. Whoops. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Just checked my normal Gmail account, it's up to 6.

    Still, my point stands. Why is it that our work accounts have 25 gigs, while my personal account has 6? Are we paying extra, or does Google simply give more space to people who've bothered to register a domain?

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  64. Frenemies by dogs4ar · · Score: 1

    I think what a lot of the "public data is public" folks are missing is that even when someone elects to "share" their information with someone else, that doesn't meant that they want that sharing of information to become public knowledge to everyone, for all time.

    Up until 12/14/07, the Google Reader had been a bit broken. It was difficult to share information with everyone in an individual's contact list. There were 3 user responses to this: 1. Stop using Reader until this was fixed. 2. Work around the problem, possibly coding something of your own. 3. Take advantage of this issue by selectively sharing with people you want, while not sharing with people you do not.

    Google's "fix" brought groups #1 and #2 into the fold, with the effect of alienating group #3. It turns out a lot of people were using this "bug" to keep some people not completely aware of what the account holder was doing. Now, it is all out in the open. The problem, for Google, is two-fold.

    First, they did not give adequate notice that this change was going to happen. They announced the change on a Friday night, then immediately implemented it. I am sure that some folks came to work Monday morning and were caught flat-footed by the change. Most of these folks (in camp 3, above) are steaming mad, and are burning up the forums.

    Second, they did not give users an option to "revert it back to the way it was". In fact, this has all the hallmarks of a permanent shift, although Google claims publicly that this "is still a very experimental feature". Somehow, I don't believe them. If it were very experimental, they would have switched it back to the original configuration after the 10th complaint hit the forum. It looks like what they really mean is "This is the way it's going to be from now on, so deal with it."

    Q: What part of shared don't you understand?

    A: If I were to "share" my hard drive across my LAN, wouldn't I feel a little uncomfortable if I saw the contents of my hard drive appear on a public forum, or in a public place? This is the same feeling Google Reader users are getting, I bet. Suddenly a word that they thought meant one thing (shared to a limited group of people in the contacts list) became a completely different concept (shared with everyone in contact list). Such a radical shift should not be implemented overnight, with virtually no user feedback. In fact, even after the feedback, it appears that Google is unwilling to revisit this issue.

    Q: Why should I be ashamed or embarrassed to share my information with all the folks in my contact list? I mean, what do I have to hide?

    A: Slashdot readers, in particular, should be knowledge regarding the privacy implications of this move. One concept that people have a hard time grasping is contextual privacy. I want to share a certain amount of information with some people (my love of WWII FPS games with my friends) while sharing other things with others (my knowledge of hedge fund movements with Wall Street people). With the new Google model, everyone is on equal footing. My carefully segregated contacts have been ruined, thanks to Google. Oh well, start again with another RSS reader, but the damage has already been done. Now, my Wall Street buddies know I like to play FPS games (I can of much more incriminating examples) and my reputation has been ruined.

    If someone doesn't sue Google, I would be surprised. They are a company based in Mountain View, CA. I am sure that there is at least one person in CA who feels "cheated" by Google. We Californians (yikes, gotta stop giving away personal information like that) are a litigious lot, and I'm sure someone is going to claim damages out of this whole thing. The title of my post explains why.

    In the Silicon Valley, there people who live by multiple allegiances, and there are people paid to figure out the allegiances of those subjects. If the Godfather taught me anything, it's "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies clos

  65. people are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ruined your christmas???

    HAHA

  66. Shared Responsibility by cavebison · · Score: 1

    This calls to mind Facebook's cute way of sending out invitations for your new Facebook page to _every_ contact in your Yahoo account. Completely counter-intuitive but very effective marketing.

    So, great marketing tool for Google in much the same way. But counter-intuitive, and I'd also say just as irresponsible to its users.

    I hope this is a lesson to people who use online sites to store private data. You cannot trust these companies to use your data in the way you would expect from a friend. Your friends are the people you know. Not the company who knows you know them..

  67. Yeah, don't show gmail.com! by saikou · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because every professional just _has_ to keep his own SMTP server with multiple redundant mail drops, back-up and web interface, simplified interface for WAP/mobile devices and a spam filter, right?

    Instead professionals should simply get Google Apps for their domain and have Google Mail work as "professional@thatismydomain.com". Duh :)

    1. Re:Yeah, don't show gmail.com! by JavaRob · · Score: 1

      Because every professional just _has_ to keep his own SMTP server with multiple redundant mail drops, back-up and web interface, simplified interface for WAP/mobile devices and a spam filter, right?

      Instead professionals should simply get Google Apps for their domain and have Google Mail work as "professional@thatismydomain.com". Duh :) There are plenty more options, you know....

      Check into basically *any* hosting package. If you're with a reputable company, you'll get the SMTP servers with multiple redundant mail drops, backup, web interface, spam filters, etc. just thrown in with the shared hosting for your simple 5 page website.

      It's not expensive (easily under $10/month.. you can go under $5, but with some cost in quality...), you don't need to manage your own server, and you don't have Google mining your email to decide which ads to show.

      If you're more paranoid (and have a bit of technical know-how) you can get a cheap virtual private server with root access, lock it down so even the hosting company can't get into it, and run your mail server there. A VPS puts you into the "over 20 bucks" a month range, though, and a decent chunk of time for setup the first time, so weigh that carefully.
  68. For my defence... by Janos421 · · Score: 1

    I agree that it sounds like an advertisement in the end, but I don't think it's off-topic. Clearly, the subject is related to privacy issues. What I wanted to point out, is that considering all integrated services of Google, anonymity is not anymore a solution to protect privacy. Clearly, you want to have access to all your services most of the time which is not possible when you use anonymity. Because all the services are linked, so, if you want to use one service anonymously, you can't use the other services (in this topic: you can't use Greader anonymously).

    This is very important I guess, because most of the time, proxy (which assures anonymity) is preferred to obfuscation tools (see the Bruce Schneier review of TrackMeNot). That's why I think obfuscation is becoming the most reliable solution to protect privacy, and in this case I'm sure that a solution using obfuscation would have been useful to protect Greader accounts.

  69. For everyone here that doesn't use GMail... by psydeshow · · Score: 1

    The big deal here is that Google considers anyone in your GMail _contacts_ list to be a _friend_.

    This includes former work associates, clients, people asking for software support, people you replied to via mailing lists, and anyone else who you happened to a) send an email to and b) uses GMail themselves.

    This is a gross violation of privacy, folks, even within the privacy-compromised Googleplex. Stop blaming the victims. I signed up for Reader last week and it felt creepy to see shared posts from people I used to work with.

  70. Best developer policy: never extend privileges... by MessyBlob · · Score: 1

    If someone puts data in an area with a defined permission or privilege, then caution is always advised when the permissions are changed.

    The Google policy should have been to introduce new levels of sharing, e.g. (a) private, (b) user-defined groups, (c) gmail networked, (d) gmail subscribers, (e) public. Looking at previous posts on this subject, it looks like Google's sharing feature was originally a (b) level, but has been elevated to (c). Google should have left everyone's data in (b), giving users the option to move shared items between new folders that may be assigned permission types (a) to (e).

    Analogy: You've just created a blog entry that only you and your friend can read. Your friend makes an off-hand comment, then you make the entry public. Your friend will feel betrayed by the change in privacy.

  71. my mistake by cjdkoh · · Score: 1

    Google, when you let me share certain items from a feed with the ENTIRE INTERNET, I somehow thought that nobody else would be able to see them. My mistake.

  72. Google At Their Whim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you read the Google Desktop EULA it's the same thing. You agree you install the software according to current terms and conditions but you also agree you agree to new conditions Google can and will introduce without notice. Swallow that one with a Gallon of Google.

    But this of course affects NO ONE I KNOW because none of us are SO FUCKING STUPID as to use a single Google service save for searches with cookies turned off.

    There's nothing to be concerned about because all you trend freaks went in with eyes open precisely as Google marketing predicted you would - precisely as other saddened bystanders predicted you would.

    You're so predictable. And so pathetic.