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NASA Releases Cryptic Airline Safety Data

An anonymous reader writes "NASA released part of a controversial study about air traffic safety Monday. The space agency spent $11 million on a survey of airline pilots. Agency officials were so disturbed by the findings that they intended to destroy the information rather than release it. But at an October congressional hearing, NASA administrator Michael Griffin changed tack and said the agency would release its findings. The research shows that safety problems occur far more often than previously recognized. NASA has been criticized however for not providing 'documentation on how to use its data, nor did it provide keys to unlock the cryptic codes used in the dataset.'"

148 comments

  1. Oh no! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    This makes me afraid to fly with pilots on board. It would probably be safer if only computers flew the planes. There would also be no way to hijack a plane. I'm very scared.

    I think the airlines should lobby to make me safer by having no pilots on board, then the fares would go down too.

    I'm very afraid. Fire the pilots, or at least only have one on board. That would be safer.

    Getting rid of my rights to a fair trial would also make me feel safer.

    1. Re:Oh no! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Getting rid of my rights to a fair trial would also make me feel safer. You are absolutely right. Jury trials are overrated. Why would you want empty-headed 12 idiots deciding your fate? For that matter, even judges introduce random element to trials. I would feel much more comfortable being judged by a computer algorithm. At least then trials would be deterministic.
    2. Re:Oh no! by JackMeyhoff · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You trust software developers who cannot handle even checking null pointers to fly your plane? I sure don't from my experience in the software industry. I get nervous when I fly high tech, I am more and more a analogue kinda guy rather than techie nowdays for good reason.

      --
      http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm
    3. Re:Oh no! by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

      We all currently do. No human is flying planes these days. The pilots tell the computers what to do, but if the computer goes on one of those new airbuses that thing is coming down hard.

    4. Re:Oh no! by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Computers already fly airplanes. Press a few buttons and the whole flight and landing sequence goes on autopilot. However, autopilot only goes according to a flight plan. It does not know the position of other aircrafts in it's surroundings.

      The main issue in airline safety (in my opinion) is not a single pilot or airliner nor terrorists or passengers causing mayhem but it's miscommunication and over-stressed traffic controllers and too much traffic in specific airports (some airports have a plane take off and land every 3 seconds). If you then get a pilot that barely speaks English and/or doesn't know where to taxi or somebody misdirects them (or 2 traffic controllers specify the same lane at the same moment) then you get accidents. It's much better than car safety still because of the guidance, but if somebody ignores or doesn't understand the guidance then you're still SOL.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re:Oh no! by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      I would feel much more comfortable being judged by a computer algorithm. At least then trials would be deterministic. Should I cite examples of the trials of Roge Blake or Space Commander Travis of Blakes 7, the law system of The Cluster in the Lexx four-part miniseries Tales from a Parallel Universe (especially the trial of Thodin), the system of instant justice in the megacities of Judge Dredd, or the legal system of the Edo in Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Justice"? I can't decide!
      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  2. reminds me of the onion by gradedcheese · · Score: 5, Funny

    http://www.theonion.com/content/video/proposed_classified_bill_will

    Rep. John Haller (R-PA) introduces a bill that will allocate (classified) dollars over the next (classified) years to fight flesh-eating (classified).

    1. Re:reminds me of the onion by ScrewMaster · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      That was hilarious.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  3. Right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm going to print out the PDF and masturbate to it. If no-one knows how to interpret the data, I'll do it in a sexy way.

    1. Re:Right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      at a medium pace?

    2. Re:Right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      best comment so far!

    3. Re:Right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen you naked - there's nothing sexy about that!

    4. Re:Right! by cHiphead · · Score: 1

      I didn't see any comments about shampoo bottles...

      --

      This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    5. Re:Right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please be a chick.

  4. NASA's mission by Butisol · · Score: 3, Insightful

    NASA lost 2 of their 5 space-worthy shuttles. Are these really the people we should be listening to about safety?

    1. Re:NASA's mission by xSauronx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nah, theyre the people we should be listening to when they say something lacks it: they clearly have experience in that area.

      --
      By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. -- George Carlin
    2. Re:NASA's mission by bitrex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Richard Fenyman's report on the Challenger disaster stated that shuttle engineers on average believed that a catastrophic vehicle loss would occur once for every 100 flights - as they're on STS 127 now the Space Shuttle program is doing approximately par for the course. Space flight is orders of magnitude more risky than air transport, and while both disasters were caused by engineering flaws in the end it seems unfair to make such an apples to oranges comparison and say that NASA knows nothing about safety. Perhaps their management knows little about safety (they wildly overestimated the shuttle's reliability to the media, after all), but given the complexities involved it seems a miracle of engineering safety and otherwise that anyone comes back alive at all.

    3. Re:NASA's mission by tic!lock · · Score: 1

      Yes. The shuttle is the first "space truck" every built. Considering the complexity of the systems and problems and the fact that the whole program was underfunded pretty much from day one, it's amazing what they've accomplished and how few people we've lost. Now we need the funding and real cross-administration political will to do something even better, but we aren't going to get it anytime soon, because there are too many people who have little understanding of what it costs to explore a new frontier. A shame. It's a good thing many of our ancestors didn't seem to share that view.

    4. Re:NASA's mission by ChronosWS · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We need a motivation. In the past, this has almost always been for one of two reasons:
      1) Profit.
      2) Beat our competition to it so we don't look weak.

      Number 1 is a pretty hard sell at the moment because we don't really have a clue how to monetize space yet. Some rich people are beginning to take those risks for various reasons, and hopefully something will fall out of that. Don't expect people to be seriously considering bringing in trillion dollar asteroids to NEO to mine though.

      Number 2 hasn't been a motivation for a while. The few players in this arena who can field whole space programs themselves don't view each other as competitors, nor do they view failing to make it to the next milestone first as a defeat in any sense. If China proves out a full, impressive space program which looks like it might be a military or economic threat to the West, then perhaps we will see something. Until then, I wouldn't count on this as a motivator either.

      Straight risk-taking isn't really an option for governments right now either, especially Western ones, due to monetary concerns (like shoveling billions into various police actions.) This leaves us basically with billionaires that have a lot of time on their hands to bring down the cost so that governments, which ultimately are most likely to take those risks, will be able to justify the cost of doing so. So if you want to see space really done right, support those companies and persons who are working to make it cheap.

    5. Re:NASA's mission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure - they were meant to be destroyed!

      1. Build giant firework - say it cost billions.
      2. Destroy on take-off.
      3. Allocate funds elsewhere for 'secret' projects.
      4. Profit!

      Hmmm... I think I'm missing a step somewhere.

    6. Re:NASA's mission by tic!lock · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We need a motivation. In the past, this has almost always been for one of two reasons:
      1) Profit.
      2) Beat our competition to it so we don't look weak.


        Sometimes in the past groups of humans have done "crazy" things in the name of survival, as well. :)

        Number 1 is a pretty hard sell at the moment because we don't really have a clue how to monetize space yet. Some rich people are beginning to take those risks for various reasons, and hopefully something will fall out of that. Don't expect people to be seriously considering bringing in trillion dollar asteroids to NEO to mine though.

        For your first point, I'd say we already have monetized "space" - communications. The real problem is we don't have efficient and inexpensive high-volume launch systems that can handle cargo, crew, or both in significant amounts to do more than comm sats. This is a solvable problem however, without inventing new technologies.

        As to trillion dollar NEAs, why not? Many if not most of them are likely to be old comets without a lot of heavy metals, but if we could find one that had high concentrations of heavy metals, we're likely only talking about a 100-150m diameter rock. It might take a generation or two to bring it in, but we could do it with existing technology.

        If we had really good tracking abilities (radar installations spread along Earth's orbit and large arrays of multiple optic and radar scopes in orbit, which really wouldn't cost that much) there's no reason why we couldn't find one in an easy to alter orbit and bring it in. If we were successful it's not like it's going to go away, we'd have all the time we need to exploit it's resources. The experience in doing so, even with just automated or remote-controlled devices, would benefit everyone on the planet.

      Number 2 hasn't been a motivation for a while. The few players in this arena who can field whole space programs themselves don't view each other as competitors, nor do they view failing to make it to the next milestone first as a defeat in any sense. If China proves out a full, impressive space program which looks like it might be a military or economic threat to the West, then perhaps we will see something. Until then, I wouldn't count on this as a motivator either.

      Straight risk-taking isn't really an option for governments right now either, especially Western ones, due to monetary concerns (like shoveling billions into various police actions.) This leaves us basically with billionaires that have a lot of time on their hands to bring down the cost so that governments, which ultimately are most likely to take those risks, will be able to justify the cost of doing so. So if you want to see space really done right, support those companies and persons who are working to make it cheap.


        There I agree, with one caveat; if we ever do face an "immediate" impact threat without preparation, it's likely it's going to take government sized-monies to counter it, and their populations are going to demand that they do... so it's in the governments interest (if it has any) to make sure it can.* :)

        * assuming rational government policy, hah.

        Personally, I'd like to see Paul Allen fund a nice sized telescope array for searching for NEAs (and perhaps help keep Arecibo alive, as well)... I wrote to him about it but never received a response.

    7. Re:NASA's mission by Butisol · · Score: 5, Funny

      That has to be the stupidest comment I've ever posted to Slashdot... and I get a "5, Insightful." WTF?

    8. Re:NASA's mission by jo42 · · Score: 1

      Yes, the same people that are re-inventing the Apollo space capsule for the "next generation space craft". Sigh.

    9. Re:NASA's mission by Marcos+Eliziario · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That has to be the stupidest comment I've ever posted to Slashdot... and I get a "5, Insightful." WTF? Once I've posted a comment that said:
      "Mod me insightful, please"
      And mind what? got an instant 5+ insightful.
      --
      Your ad could be here!
    10. Re:NASA's mission by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Simple. NASA knows quite a bit about aviation safety. However, they're not responsible for it in any direct manner.

      This makes me fairly inclined to believe what they have to say -- they're in the unique position of being experts on the subject, but also relatively unbiased. If NASA releases an overwhelmingly positive or negative report about the state of the FAA, it's not going to considerably effect NASA no matter what the outcome. (Although, an accurate report outlining specific failures of the FAA could bolster NASA's reputation and credibility)

      Although NASA's had some serious management problems, I get the feeling that they know quite a bit about how aviation safety "should be" even if there might have been implementing it in the past. On a similar note, the two shuttles that were lost failed both times due to engineering failures, which isn't even relevant to the report at hand. If NASA lost a shuttle because it entered civilian airspace, and struck another aircraft, I'd question their credibility. However, as it is, they've done a pretty good job with regard to general aviation safety, and are an extremely qualified and unbiased body to do an external audit of the FAA.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    11. Re:NASA's mission by ryanov · · Score: 1

      You must be new here.

    12. Re:NASA's mission by twms2h · · Score: 1

      Yes, we should. They were able to get those ancient garbage cans fly to LEO and back for years without losing them and without killing many people. Try to do that yourself.

      Also, even if that were a valid argument: What does their ability to perform a survey, statistical analysis of the answers and interpretation of the data have to do with their supposed inability to send people to LEO safely?

    13. Re:NASA's mission by giorgist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In Engineering you never fire an Engineer that lived through a disaster that is his mistake. They just lesson cost them 1 billion dollars. You don't fire somebody after having lived through that lesson. He/She is gold. Making mistakes or living through exceptional disasters are invaluable. You do fire somebody if they repeat mistakes. G

    14. Re:NASA's mission by jacquesm · · Score: 1

      Just for one minute think about the space program you could have had for the cost of the Iraq war...

      Not to even think about all the tech spin-offs and basic industrial advances.

    15. Re:NASA's mission by ChronosWS · · Score: 1

      As to trillion dollar NEAs, why not? Many if not most of them are likely to be old comets without a lot of heavy metals, but if we could find one that had high concentrations of heavy metals, we're likely only talking about a 100-150m diameter rock. It might take a generation or two to bring it in, but we could do it with existing technology.

      When was the last time you saw anything in the space program really thought out and executed that had a payoff in a generation or two, as opposed to within the next 5 to 10 years? No one wants to take the risk right now, and that's my point. We have a very risk-averse government at the moment. An external influence will have to prove to them that the risks are low, or at least cheap. Neither is true presently.

      Also you can be guaranteed people would be afraid of moving a rock of any significance to NEO because they'd all expect Osama Bin Laden would find some way to make it come crashing down.

    16. Re:NASA's mission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NASA managed to prevent 3 of their 5 space shuttles not to fail (not to mention the vast majority of the NASA missions, which worked perfectly well). The space shuttle is probably one of the most complex machine ever been built by mankind. So are these really the people we should be listening to about safety? I think we should.

    17. Re:NASA's mission by Buran · · Score: 1

      So in other words you think that solving new problems by using solutions that are already known to work is stupid? Would you seriously walk up to your boss and say "No, we can't use that idea to fix this problem, because it's an old idea and not a new one, even though it's already known to work"? You'd deserve every blank confused stare you got.

      You don't fix problems by trying wacky new things that you have no confidence in. You do things that are tried and true.

      Oh, and by the way, did you ever consider that the shape is old but the rest is not?

      Typical -- armchair space program "experts" flapping their lips and showing how little they really know. Uninformed BS like this is EXACTLY WHY we get people screaming that the space program wastes a ton of money, blah blah blah blah fucking blah, when it gets 1/2 of 1% of the budget.

      Let's try not sending billions to DoD which has gotten caught paying for hookers on government-issued, taxpayer-funded credit cards.

      Right?

      RIGHT??

      HELLO, IS ANYONE LISTENING!?!??!

    18. Re:NASA's mission by Matey-O · · Score: 2, Funny

      You're not bending the stats correctly. Rather than saying you'll have one disaster per 100 flights, you should put it in terms of Million Miles Flown per incident.

      Then classify an incident as 'unintended disassembly'.

      --
      "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
    19. Re:NASA's mission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, tell that to the guy who cratered the Mars lander due to metric/imperial conversion errors

    20. Re:NASA's mission by tic!lock · · Score: 1

      When was the last time you saw anything in the space program really thought out and executed that had a payoff in a generation or two, as opposed to within the next 5 to 10 years?

        Well, Hubble has and did, and perhaps a few other programs. But your point is well made; and I don't think our government is ever going to become less risk-adverse. For most elected officials it's not about doing the best for the most people anymore. The CYA attitude has truly become a national icon. Our grandkids will start to pay the true price for that. :(

        Regarding your last comment: our government couldn't have successfully laid wild fears on it's population without retaliation unless our population was already so ignorant that those fears would be believed. (oh, wait...). Therefore it really doesn't matter anymore, does it... and perhaps that could be used in reverse: "*insert deadly terrorist/country here* is building a program to bring one of those asteroids down on your head, and we have to build our own program in order to stop them and place the asteroid somewhere where the people of earth are safe from it, blah, blah (and companies X and Y profit from it)..." *grin*

        When I was lots younger, our country landed two men on the moon. Granted the reasons for doing it weren't pure in any sense; but we still DID IT. I have a bad feeling that we're never going to do it again, even tho it's EASIER now. :(

        nice talking to you & don't stop dreaming about what could be :)

        tic!lock

    21. Re:NASA's mission by ChronosWS · · Score: 1

      Well, I think we will do it, it will just take much longer. In a sense the government has done its job - it did show that you CAN get to space and back safely. What happened though is that with the computer age, those who go to space found a way to go there without sending people. Most of us dreamers want to send humans, not robots, for various reasons - some technical, some romantic. But the business people know that most of the work at this point can still be done with automation and remote capabilities. We must be ever vigilant for those areas where people CAN contribute in space and ensure they don't get lost in the noise. It's an uphill battle.

      I am optimistic that ventures such as space tourism can help to open these frontiers. Again, if for no other reason than to commoditize space launches and operations.

    22. Re:NASA's mission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't expect people to be seriously considering bringing in trillion dollar asteroids to NEO to mine though.

      Which is a shame as it promises to be massively profitable, and I really don't see any major technical hurdles. As far as I can tell, we have the science to be able to do this today, the rest is just a matter of engineering. The main roadblock is that the initial investment, both to solve the engineering issues and to actually build the machines needed, is utterly huge. At the moment, the only organisations with access to the kind of capital needed to take on such a project are a few of the World's largest governments. I think even Bill Gates, with all his billions, would be hard pressed to finance a mining expedition to an NEA. Since governments aren't really interested in turning a profit themselves, none of them are going to fund such a project. The first company that has the resources and the balls to drag an NEA into orbit around the earth and start mining it is going to change the World's economy overnight, and turn themselves into the richest and most influential company on Earth at the same time.

      Straight risk-taking isn't really an option for governments right now either, especially Western ones, due to monetary concerns (like shoveling billions into various police actions.) This leaves us basically with billionaires that have a lot of time on their hands to bring down the cost so that governments, which ultimately are most likely to take those risks, will be able to justify the cost of doing so.

      I agree with you that the Governments that might actually have the resources to go Asteroid Mining are currently very unlikely to do so. However, even as the billionaires of the world bring the cost of space-based industries down, I don't see Governments getting involved themselves. One positive though, is that as the costs gradually come down and more of the engineering problems are solved, the investment required will eventually be within reach of some of the worlds big companies. If not one alone, then perhaps a consortium to share the risk. Either way it will be private industry, not governments, that eventually pioneer space-based industry.

  5. blame the media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think our retarded media has more to do with government secrecy then any conspiracy. I'm a pilot. None of this data is surprising, unexpected, or really, in any way new. However, the retards at fox news and CNN will spin this to sell add space instead of to show how safe aviation really is. As in ... Oh my GOD!!!! the airplanes were 4.8 miles apart instead of 5 miles. Panic!!!!!

    1. Re:blame the media by Oswald · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't worry, you won't be hearing about the 4.8's any more. The FAA has reclassified anything better than 90% of required separation as a Proximity Event instead of an Operational Error. Expect a major reduction in Operation Errors real soon.

    2. Re:blame the media by Buran · · Score: 1

      So... you're OK with a literal last-minute ("we'll release something by the end of the year"), half-assed (no info describing what the records mean), lame (I'm sure there's a lot missing from this report) effort that wasn't going to be out in the first place ("we don't want to hurt the profits of lazy airlines who don't give a shit about their customers that they just see as walking wallets")?

      Got it.

      Great. Do you fly an airline, and which one is it, so I can avoid them for life because now I know they hire pilots who don't care about very real concerns?

  6. On a wing and a prayer by T1girl · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Earlier characterizations from people who have seen the results said they would show that events like near collisions and runway interference occur far more frequently than previously recognized. Such information could not be gleaned from the 16,208 pages posted by NASA on its Web site, however, because of information that was edited out. "

    Your tax dollars at work.

    his reminds me of the time President Bush dismissed an EPA http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/03/tech/main510920.shtml? Bush dismisses global warming warning on global sarming as the work of the the bureaucracy.

    1. Re:On a wing and a prayer by mcrbids · · Score: 3, Funny

      his reminds me of the time President Bush dismissed an EPA http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/03/tech/main510920.shtml? [cbsnews.com] Bush dismisses global warming warning on global sarming as the work of the the bureaucracy.

      Oh yeah... that was so funny, I ... eh, eh, what was that you said?

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
  7. Woopteedoo by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

    The columns in the PDF document are:
    Flight Hours, Flight Legs, Career Hours, Aircraft 1, % Hours Aircraft 1, Aircraft 2, % Hours Aircraft 2, Aircraft 3, % Hours Aircraft 3, Aircraft 4, % Hours Aircraft 4, Aircraft 5, % Hours Aircraft 5, Aircraft 6, % Hours Aircraft 6.

    How this is useful safety information is left as an excersize for the reader.

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    1. Re:Woopteedoo by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Getting their data into 1NF is left as an exercise to the reader.

      THESE people launch the space shuttle? The reason they don't build a fifth one is because their inventory database has the columns:

      Name,SKU, QtyShuttle1, QtyShuttle2 , QtyShuttle3 , QtyShuttle4
      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:Woopteedoo by pla · · Score: 1

      The columns in the PDF document are:
      ...
      How this is useful safety information is left as an excersize for the reader


      Well, it doen't take a genius to draw a few conclusions. Looking at some "coincidences":

      We have 25360 two-column rows (745 +30/34 pages at 34/page) with no clear ordering. From the magnitude of the hours, I would suspect it has a base unit of at least one month, and probably more (due to the presence of a few high numbers such as 300 hours).

      We have 25308 "career hours" rows (744 +12/34 pages at 34/page), in increasing order from 3 to 80,000 with what looks like an inflection at around 25k; This most likely refers to flight-time of the pilot rather than the plane, as 80k would translate into 40 years of 250 8-hour days (I know pilots don't work standard business days, but as a rough approximation...).

      We also have 25360 twelve-column rows (745 +30/34 pages at 34/page) with no clear ordering. The % hours add up to 100, making this a breakdown of time spent in each plane type rather than a summary of miss-types (disappointing, I think we would all have preferred the latter).


      For the first set, hours divided by legs gives the time per leg, which we could use to come up with a pretty good estimate of the distances involved here (mostly long-haul, mostly nearby city-hopping, etc). However, I do notice a few anomalies in that interpretation, such as one row with 40 hours over one leg. That data set also contains a number of non-numeric values, however, so it may simply contain entry errors.

      For a first-to-third set comparison, at a rough glance, the number of planes seems to correlate (line-by-line) positively with the number of flight legs. More legs, more planes. This makes me suspect the sections match linewise, which would also suggest a similar match with the second section; As the second section has fewer rows, that would suggest that most pilots under consideration made only one entry, while a small number made two (or possibly more).

      The third section doesn't appear to relate to any sort of "incidents". Rather, it just documents the hours summarized in section one with a percent-wise breakdown.

      IF we presume that each record corresponds to a "near miss", we can then calculate a few summary statistics such as whether new or old pilots make more errors; a breakdown of incidents by plane type; whether flying one type of plane or a variety helps or hurts; and whether fatigue (too many flight hours) plays an important role or if "these things just happen" regardless of experience and fatigue.

      One additional bit of information that would help us interpret this, which we don't need NASA to tell us, just any pilot that particupated - What did they actually ask?

  8. 2500 pages of partial SQL in PDF - nice. by Gorobei · · Score: 2, Informative

    So, the first 1500 pages seem to be one or two columns of data on the pilots involved (# of flight hours?) The next 1000 pages are incident reports (planes 1 thru 6, but mostly 1 or 2 planes,) with so few columns you can't tell who, what, or when the incident occurred.

    Hey, NASA, thanks a lot.

    (oh, and if you're worried about people using a modified/hacked data set, publish a hash on your website.)

    1. Re:2500 pages of partial SQL in PDF - nice. by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 5, Informative

      -- you can't tell who, what, or when the incident occurred.

      That's part of the point. The data collection is ANONYMOUS. The goal is that pilots will report MORE if they know that their voluntary reporting of incidents that don't require FAA reports will stay anonymous. Stuff happens up there. Sometimes it's bad stuff that's nobody's fault. But a pilot is far more likely to call attention to a potentially bad situation that's nobody's fault if he knows that it won't come back and bite him.

      If you add the exact time and coordinates of every incident it wouldn't be hard to back-track and put names with each one. There are VERY detailed FAA records of who flew every flight leg in the country over the last few years. It's not hard to back-up anonymous data if you leave too many variables that can be referenced with outside data -- see what happened to Netflix/IMBD.

      If it takes anonymity to get better data, then let's get better data. I'd much rather have more anonymous pilots reporting close calls truthfully than have fewer pilots reporting data and trying to put a positive spin on it. You can make as many laws as you want requiring disclosure, but every single pilot in the known universe will always put a positive spin on things if he knows that his job (and his family) are on the line.

    2. Re:2500 pages of partial SQL in PDF - nice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Anonymity is essential.

      Which is why it would be a joke if NASA thinks releasing the data as a page formatted PDF file would make a speck of difference to keeping it anonymous. I sure hope that isn't the rationale for doing it this way.

    3. Re:2500 pages of partial SQL in PDF - nice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
      They collect phone numbers, names, addresses, date, time, and location of incident, and make and model of aircraft involved. They (claim to) remove the identifying information but there is no mention of removing the information about the incident itself. Indeed they should not, as this information is valuable. Much more important in encouraging pilots to submit reports is the fact that submitting a report on an incident, with some exceptions, makes the submitting pilot immune to any enforcement action related to that incident. Certainly they don't release this information publicly (and they are prohibited from giving it to the FAA), but they definitely collect it and store most of it.

      There are VERY detailed FAA records of who flew every flight leg in the country over the last few years.
      Not in the least. There are records of every flight for which a flight plan was filed, and detailed records of IFR flights, but there are thousands of flights a day (at least) in the US about which the FAA knows basically nothing. Many non-pilots may not know this but it is possible and perfectly legal to fly from the vast majority of American airports without either asking permission, contacting any kind of controlling agency, or indeed informing anyone else if your flight at all. I have personally made over one hundred flights in the last year and a half of which the FAA has absolutely no record whatsoever.

      If it takes anonymity to get better data, then let's get better data.
      It takes more than anonymity. I guarantee that if the ASRS system were merely anonymous that it wouldn't get a tenth of the submissions it actually gets. Hiding the identities of the reporters and giving them immunity from prosecution really helps people to submit reports, because not only is there no cost in doing so, but there is actually a great benefit.
  9. Not Your Job by alan_dershowitz · · Score: 4, Informative

    NASA begrudgingly released some results Monday from an $11.3 million federal air safety study it previously withheld from the public over concerns it would upset travelers and hurt airline profits. Hey NASA, it's not in your charter to protect airline profits. You know what IS in your charter?

    "[the agency shall] provide for the widest practicable and appropriate dissemination of information concerning its activities and the results thereof."
    1. Re:Not Your Job by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fortunately, since it was public knowledge that NASA was conducting the study, it was more difficult for certain factions within NASA or low-level political appointees to pull a Philip Cooney style "editing" of the results and conclusions. The truth must be told, no matter how bad it is or how much it hurts the airlines. Failure to release the full report because the average American might "draw the wrong conclusions" or become scared or "lose confidence" in the airlines is NOT an acceptable excuse to edit, quash, or destroy the report. The people have a right to know what risks they are taking when they fly, particularly when their tax dollars paid for the formal analysis of those risks by qualified scientists and other experts.

    2. Re:Not Your Job by Buran · · Score: 1

      Exactly why repeated FOIA requests must be filed, and if they try to hide behind excuses to not give us all the data, repeated lawsuits must be filed.

  10. An xls file would have been nice... by mikelieman · · Score: 2, Informative

    Of course, then people could see that the important columns are missing.

    --
    Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
    1. Re:An xls file would have been nice... by cnettel · · Score: 1

      Better up, they could right-click and unhide them!

  11. Summary: by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 5, Funny

    "OMG! WE ALL GUNNA DIE!" It further advises to:

    "Kiss your ass goodbye, because the proles don't want to spend the money to fix the antiquated system." I hope the translation is accurate, but my bureaucratese is a little rusty - much like the wings of the planes you people flew in during your holiday travels. :)
    --
    "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
    1. Re:Summary: by Ardeocalidus · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      What astounds me the most is not the findings released by NASA.

      It is the fact that your comment has already been noted by Google.

      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Kiss+your+ass+goodbye%2C+because+the+proles+don't+want+to+spend+the+money+to+fix+the+antiquated+system.%22

    2. Re:Summary: by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 1

      It is the fact that your comment has already been noted by Google. VINDICATION FOR MY PARANOIA!

      This is proof that my tinfoil hat, cell blocking paint, magic underwear and living in a basement are prudent methods of self-protection!

      People are out to get me! They're googling me and my words!
      --
      "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
  12. Space craft doesn't mean UFO.... Don your Tinfoil by GR8_GRM_RPR · · Score: 0

    Tin foil hats needed. The following codes have been heard from the Space Shuttle. Codes: Fire, Santa, object under observation, all have been used at one point or another. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0jpUPLqLhA

    --
    Have Tardis, will travel.
  13. Ask any pilot, more regulations != not safer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Assuming the actual non-cryptic survey is eventually released: The number to focus on is the rate of actual crashes. Unless this survey reveals a RECENT change for the worse, I would hate to see the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) take action. After all, if a similar driving survey was taken, I believe that many of us would have one "almost crash" nearly every time we go out on the road: Flying is by far the safest way to travel and nothing has changed.

    1. Re:Ask any pilot, more regulations != not safer by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      Absolutely, moreover, almost no driver is properly trained to handle extreme conditions and one of the very few who can (Hamilton, the genius F1 pilot) just got his driver license suspended by french policemen for reckless driving (or maybe they were bitter Alonso fans).

  14. Shouldn't be hard to extract data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Extracting the data does not require OCR. It's not images, it's a PDF of formatted text (ASCII?). You can copy and paste from it. I've never tried it, but I assume you could also automate extraction of the data into a more dynamic format, such as a database or spreadsheet.

  15. I have filed a NASA ASRA Report! by flyboy974 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am one of those anonymous pilots who has filed a NASA ASRA report. My report was not of coming close to hitting another aircraft. It was because of a violation of airspace (NASA's own Moffett Field) as a result of Air Traffic Controller mis-communication/hand off. While the pilot is ultimately responsible for communicating with ATC. This program was designed to be anonymous. It provided pilots with a way to discuss issues without having to be identified. This was designed to improve safety. I completely agree with this idea as it frees the pilot from having to come to call for reporting things that could be potentially hazardous or failures within the system. Unfortunately today, lawyers are always searching out new ways to prove negligence. Protecting pilots trying to help is even more important! In the aviation community, there is very little true negligence. Many husbands/spouses of pilots killed sue people after the pilot flew into a mountainside. Why? Because nobody knows why, and there could be many defendants (Airframe, engine, altimeter, radio navigation, radio communication, transponder, ATC (FAA/Government), Spark Plug manger, carberator, etc). Yes, they sue them all because if the jury thinks that any one person might possibly be responsible, it's millions. It's cheaper and/or a safer bet to sue than to buy life insurance it seems these days. I wouldn't mind if they released categoried data, ie, Phase: LANDING, Situation: NEAR MISS, Key 1: Distance, Value 1: 1500ft, etc... IE, you just say what happened, and nothing more. This is what the government really needs. I haven't reviewed all of the data, but, this is very reasonable in the light of trying to determine what is going wrong.

    1. Re:I have filed a NASA ASRA Report! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a doctor, and a comparable situation exists in the medical profession. The current legal climate makes it very hard to analyze system failures with an eye toward making the system safer. Too many people want to "punish" mistakes, with the natural consequence that mistakes get buried as much as possible. It would be better for everyone if the emphasis were on figuring out what allows mistakes to propagate, and fix the system so that errors can be detected and corrected at an earlier stage, before someone gets hurt.

    2. Re:I have filed a NASA ASRA Report! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you lack the reading comprehension skills to follow it then just shut the fuck up.

    3. Re:I have filed a NASA ASRA Report! by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Informative

      Punish, and also "profit by". There's an entire legal profession that centers around extracting payouts from the medical system, deserved or not.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    4. Re:I have filed a NASA ASRA Report! by berck · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with ASRA reports.

    5. Re:I have filed a NASA ASRA Report! by fotoguzzi · · Score: 1

      What? Are you a spark plug manger? Well? Are you?

      --
      Their they're doing there hair.
    6. Re:I have filed a NASA ASRA Report! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I've done forensics on a few cases, hence AC. In my experience a case has to be quite clear for a lawyer to spend time on it. So yes, it is profit for the lawyer, but there is no shortage of simple gross negligence cases to choose from. I've seen an ER physician who had been fired from one hospital for diluting a burn patient's fentanyl so he could use. He was suspected of being high again during a patient's death. This guy submitted a urine sample with a temperature of 80F. Amazingly the hospital considered it a valid sample. In another case, the radiation physicist used a 10mm collimator instead of a 5mm collimator to treat a non-lethal brain condition. The result was 8 times the necessary volume of brain tissue being necrotized. If you kill too much tissue at one time, the body can not recover, and you get what is essentially a run away necrotic condition. The patient took about two years to die from the treatment. To be sure, causality is hard to prove in these cases, but I know the hospitals will not change their ways unless it actually costs them when they are negligent.
      I've seen the same lawyers turn away far more cases than they take. It seems very rare for the medmal folks to just cave in and pay. Almost always you are looking at a jury trial because juries do not want to believe that Doctors make mistakes, much less that they are sometimes grossly negligent.
      From my point of view, the lawyers that are making the easy dirty money are the ones defending some of these doctors and hospitals.

    7. Re:I have filed a NASA ASRA Report! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      the hospitals will not change their ways unless it actually costs them when they are negligent.

      They also won't change their ways unless it DOESN'T cost them when they're NOT negligent. In my own experience, even in cases when neither the hospital nor the physician did anything to merit a malpractice accusation, the hospital will settle the case anyway, largely because their attorneys don't want to risk a jury trial (see below).

      I've seen the same lawyers turn away far more cases than they take. It seems very rare for the medmal folks to just cave in and pay. Almost always you are looking at a jury trial because juries do not want to believe that Doctors make mistakes, much less that they are sometimes grossly negligent.

      With all due respect, you must be practicing in the physician's Mecca. I can't think of a single place I've been to in the US where physicians weren't automatically suspected of not just gross negligence, but actively harming patients for fun and profit. Moreover, you must have some great jury selection criteria, since every case I've ever seen that has gone to trial has resulted in a massive finding against the physician and the hospital - again, usually when there WAS NO ERROR COMMITTED and everyone bent over backward to try and save the patient's life or head off whatever morbidity was at issue. Given that track record, the defense attorneys would have to be out of their minds to risk a jury trial, unless the physician walks on water or the patient is so obviously fishing for money that they hope the judge will toss the suit for lack of merit.

  16. Who's lying and how much? by DynaSoar · · Score: 1

    The summary doesn't match what the article says, and makes claims that appear nowhere else.

    The information "removed" was previously released. What's changed is that it now carries the caveat that it hasn't been peer reviewed. That's where they extract the facts and inject the "not properly vetted" in attempt to use the connotation to make it sound worse.

    One of the people in charge of designing and carrying out the project is complaining about the data handling. He's one of the people who created the data. The "what to do with it" is a singularly stoopid statement in this light.

    There's more, but it's even more nonsensical. I can't figure out how much of this is intentional poor writing/reporting, how much of it is unintentional poor writing/reporting, and how much of it misdirection hastily written because either something peripheral to the main topic has popped out as significant, or even something totally unrelated has come up and they want you to waste your time on this obsfucational press release.

    Something is going on that they're not talking about, because they're doing an awful lot of talking about nothing here, in such a way that you spend a lot of time trying to stop misunderstanding it. It shouldn't be this difficult, and didn't used to be. At the very least they're trying to make an issue out of the article, and sidling away from the content. But they're using unsupported statements for doing so. I don't think the content of the article itself or the implications are what they're concerned about. They'd either come out as say so clearly, or they'd disown it clearly.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  17. data analysis by Robbat2 · · Score: 1

    Formatting of data
    It's ~24600 rows (746 pages) of what must be pilot data.

    The first 746 pages are Flight Hours (A1), Flight Legs (A2), and would be how many of each the pilot has undertaken, in the last N years.

    The next 746 pages are Career Hours (A8), this is also sorted, so I think it was the key they used.

    The last 746 pages are percentage and plane-type breakdown per pilot.
    It mainly seems to be the larger jets, but there are a few interesting smaller, older aircraft, couple of fighters, and business jets.

    However, what is lacking from this data is actual accident report and statistics. We've only got pilot information here.

    --
    ICQ# : 30269588
    "I used to be an idealist, but I got mugged by reality."
  18. One can understand why not release the findings by magarity · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Reporters looking for a sensational story wouldn't hesitate a moment to put up banner headlines screaming about near misses if there's any chance the data can be taken out of context. 1,000 feet of seperation is perfectly safe for planes flying in different directions as long as the 1,000 feet is vertical and not horizontal. I just got home from driving on the interstate where it was a LOT scarier and dangerous to be tailgated at 75 mph by a huge pickup truck. But the hick in the thing would respond probably positively to a congresscritter calling for more regulations and whatnot because planes were missing each other by ONLY 1,000 FEET AT 500 MPH!! OMG!!
     
    As for the data, I thought it would be easy to import into a database but the dang files are not only PDF, there are several datasets in each giant PDF with column headers (titles) every page. They need to be broken apart into distinct tables' worth of data each and all the extra headers stripped. What a pain. I'll think about it.

    1. Re:One can understand why not release the findings by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "ONLY 1,000 FEET AT 500 MPH!! OMG!!"

      Open the blind when flying over the EU, sometimes you can see them wizz by close enough to feel the "wash", it's was quite an awsome sight the first time I saw it. What I find remarkable is that there are so few disasters.

      Regardless of the logic in the traffic comparison, being in a plane still makes me anxious enough that I can't sleep a wink, even on trips from Oz to the EU with an airline that has never lost a plane.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  19. TCAS Stats by xquark · · Score: 1

    Data relating to pilot competency is one thing, but if they were to reveal
    the statistics relating to near misses that were averted by the TCAS system
    (in some cases unbeknownst to the pilots themselves until they had landed)
    many more people would think twice or perhaps even thrice before boarding
    an aircraft.

    --
    Arash Partow's Philosophy: Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
    1. Re:TCAS Stats by ghjm · · Score: 1

      How could TCAS avert a collision without the pilots knowledge? First of all, as far as I know TCAS just gives audible/visual indications, and it's up to the pilots to pull the stick in the recommended direction. Even if the TCAS system is capable of autonomously commanding a control input, the pilots would immediately be aware of the change in heading, altitude, attitude etc ... unless you're prepared to believe that an airline pilot with thousands of hours experience would simply fail to notice when his airplane executed an uncommanded sharp turn.

      -Graham

    2. Re:TCAS Stats by xquark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are 3 phases to flight, ascent cruise and descent, from what I understand most of the silent events occur
      during the take-off and landing stages in both cases the secondary systems have to kick-in because either the
      pilot was pulling up too fast and as a result would have hit the tail on runway for take-off, or they were landing
      with an awkward angle.

      In both cases the system automatically kicks in and "attempts" to rectify the situation. The trouble is there is a
      calculation it does relating to a "projected" state of the aircraft and what kind of counter maneuvers have to be
      executed in order to get out of that state.

      If it decides the number or the sensitivity of the maneuvers is beyond what a human can do within the necessary
      time span it kicks-in and helps out - that fact is recorded on the CMU and on the blackbox most often than not its
      ignored by the FAA and the airlines. for the most part the bells and whistles occur when there is a possibility of
      a mid-air collision or if the aircraft is descending at a rate that not considered safe.

      As for cruise, when considering a 747 traveling in bad weather with flaky radar at about 850km/hr the distance traveled
      in 10secs is roughly 2.3km, in that 10seconds the pilots may be required to execute a series of very complex maneuvers,
      the unfortunate situation is when someone with years of experience freezes or makes the wrong decisions under pressure/stress,
      such human weaknesses make these systems a necessity.

      The point I wanted to make was that the TCAS data collected both in the US and Europe are not being used to better
      train/filter-out pilots.

      --
      Arash Partow's Philosophy: Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
    3. Re:TCAS Stats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TCAS II (mandated for commercial flight) is just a traffic awareness system, if it avoided the crash, the pilots would certianly know that they had an avionics box yelling at them which way to go ("Climb, Climb Now!").

      See, what TCAS II does is coordinate the aircraft maneuvers such that they perform the highest seperation maneuver. TCAS becomes active when a crash is immeninant, allowing the ATC to do thier job first because they have "reasoning" abilities.

      I am a flight simulator software engineer specializing in the avionics components which keep us safe from traffic, weather, and the dirt. My software simulations are in use at the highest level of commercial pilot training for the proper operation and usage of TCAS, weather radar, and ground proximity systems.

      There are couple of new avionics systems which are being slowly adopted which will result in inprovements in the areas which are currently recognized as highest risk. Honeywell's RAAS (http://www.egpws.com/) is just one of many products in current production.

  20. NASA funding depends on politics by shadowofwind · · Score: 1

    So NASA management is naturally heavily politicized, very often determining what information is publicized and what is suppressed. (I have worked at NASA.) It seems a lot more people understand this dynamic in regard to for-profit organizations than in regard to government and research interests.

  21. regulations can help by r00t · · Score: 1

    For example, we could prohibit airlines from screwing with sleep patterns. If a guy sleeps from 8 AM to 4 PM, you don't suddenly switch him over to sleeping from 4 PM to midnight. Well, you don't do that unless you are an airline or a hospital!

    1. Re:regulations can help by xSauronx · · Score: 1

      Or in law enforcement. I know a guy who worked with the local sheriff department for a few months and quit because the hours drove him nuts. 12 on, 12 off, then after a few days youd switch shifts. Meh.

      --
      By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. -- George Carlin
    2. Re:regulations can help by NoPantsJim · · Score: 1

      There are some regulations like that in both the airline industry and for air traffic controllers. The airlines bend over backwards to follow them even for mechanics and flight attendants, but air traffic controllers still get stuck with quick turn (8 hours off between shifts) and ironman (quick turn w/ 16 hours for the second shift) work schedules.

      I am planning to become an air traffic controller, so it bugs me that flight attendants have stricter rules for work schedules than I will.

  22. Information will be free anyway ... soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "NASA Administrator Michael Griffin told reporters the agency typically releases information in Adobe System's portable document format, known as pdf, which presents the information on formatted, printed pages."

    NASA releases LOADS of data in all sorts of relevant formats. Imagery is released in a bunch of mission-specific raw formats, you can download elevation data from most of the world in a large variety of formats, and so on. Formatted pages only? This is ridiculous. The only plausible reason for doing so is to make it more awkward for people to analyze the data further.

    And the worst symptom this is probably the case? If you look at the PDF files that have data tables, the PDF properties indicate the files were derived from Excel (.xls) files.

    "Griffin said NASA wanted to ensure that no one modified the survey results and circulated false data as NASA's research product."

    What? Has no one at NASA heard of MD5 checksums? Yeah, sure, they aren't perfect either, but they are going to be a whole lot more reliable than, say, a PDF file that someone could edit with far less effort.

    "He said even inexpensive optical character recognition software could convert the formatted reports. Such software can risk introducing errors in the data as it performs these conversions."

    They've made the possibility of error more likely by doing it this way.

    Whatever. A bit of pdftotxt, some perl scripts, and it will be released in easy-to-analyze, properly delimited format.

    I give it a week before some enterprising people transform the whole thing.

    Look, Griffin: either release it properly (so you can ensure the quality and integrity of the data yourself), or don't release it at all. Doing it halfway is a joke.

  23. Well duh by Token_Internet_Girl · · Score: 1

    NASA has been criticized however for not providing 'documentation on how to use its data Everyone knows an engineer can't write a ledgible manual. Otherwise, everyone's VCR would be set to the appropriate time.
    --
    Sure baby, I'll give you my phone number...in Hex
    1. Re:Well duh by jcgf · · Score: 1

      It's not the engineers. Engineers are required to take english classes for their degrees, while no one is required to study any engineering. I find it's most often the case that the engineer knows more about grammar than the english lit. person knows about electronics.

      On another note some people just grow tired of setting it after frequent power outages...

      I don't really have anything interesting to add to the discussion, I just wanted to ask for your phone number. Hex is just fine as long as you include the country and area codes ;)

    2. Re:Well duh by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Everyone knows an engineer can't write a ledgible manual.

      Apparently, you are one. An engineer, I mean.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  24. Not all the data by Evets · · Score: 2, Informative
    The dataset linked in the summary looks pretty useless and is really meant to:

    This file contains a portion of the actual or raw responses collected in Section A of the air carrier surveys to show the breadth and scope of the pilot community surveyed and the types of aircraft flown.


    More interesting data that was released is here: http://www.nasa.gov/news/reports/NAOMS_air_carrier_survey_data.html

    Although - these are really just answers to questions. I've spent some time going through the various links and I don't see anything that describes the questions that most of the columns relate to - although this file seems to contain the most information about the results. http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/207238main_NAOMS%20Reference%20Report_508.pdf
    1. Re:Not all the data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 207238main_NOAMS Reference Report 508.pdf does seem to contain the key that translates columns to questions. Look at App 11 and App 12 near the end of the document.

      For example, App 12 (General Aviation) seem to contain the questions for the general aviation survey. Section B would correspond to the B PDF.

      ER2-A question A "Commanded movements of speedbrakes" would be described by GER02AA - G=> General Aviation ER2=>ER02 etc...

      pdftotext -layout will turn the PDF to a text file in tabular form.

      Writing a perl script to convert the pages of data to CSV should not be that hard (empty responses make it a bit harder than converting spaces to commas)

  25. Re:Near Misses by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

    *crash*

    What happened, pilot?

    Oh, sorry control. WE nearly missed that other plane.

    --
    I drink to make other people interesting!
  26. Is a near miss proof of danger, or of safety? by CFD339 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Two aircraft close to within 4.5 miles of one another when the safety zone is 5 miles. It gets logged as a near miss. The planes divert because secondary safety systems send alerts to pilots and traffic controllers who take appropriate action.

    Is this proof that that the system is unsafe? Seems to me that something went wrong, safety systems kicked in, people took action as trained, and a problem was mitigated. So, the safety zone being 5 miles paid off. All went well. That's why we have a 5 mile safety zone and not a 4 mile one (or two, or whatever).

    Congratulations to the safety engineers, the pilots, and traffic controllers. Through their training, planning, and risk assessment the practices and procedures were in place to handle a mishap and not result in a tragedy.

    I recall the last few years of service of the Maine Yankee power plant not far from here. One day there was some kind of problem. Safety systems came in to play. The plant was shut down. Nobody was hurt. Nothing dangerous was released. All was well. Some people screamed at the danger of having the plant around. To me, this made no sense. I say the engineers and operators should have been celebrated for having built something that continued to be safe even as its lifespan was drawing to and end. All the safety systems still worked and everyone went home that night to their families.

    Does the system need overhaul? Surely it does. I happen to know a few people who work for the FAA. One is a controller and the other some kind of inspector who flies around a lot and is in charge of some things. I hear stories from them -- though nothing specific -- and I know the stress they're under. We all know the stories off the equipment in use in those towers being insanely antiquated.

    Still and all, these things only prove that to keep thing safe, we're losing efficiency. There is no evidence that we're sacrificing safety. Thousands of these massive things scream down runways at hundreds of miles and hour then leap into the sky propelled by unimaginable forces --all in close quarters to one another -- day in and day out. What a marvel of safety and a triumph of engineering.

    I'm looking forward to my next flights -- all but the stupid TSA part anyway.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:Is a near miss proof of danger, or of safety? by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      In reality, yes it's great that the safety systems work

      As a practical matter, the best way to keep people performing to standards is to treat every successful operation of the safety system as a failure of the human operators. It isn't objectively correct, more a psychological trick that reduces the tendency towards complacency.

    2. Re:Is a near miss proof of danger, or of safety? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Is this proof that that the system is unsafe? Seems to me that something went wrong, safety systems kicked in, people took action as trained, and a problem was mitigated.

      I recall the last few years of service of the Maine Yankee power plant not far from here. One day there was some kind of problem. Safety systems came in to play. The plant was shut down. Nobody was hurt. Nothing dangerous was released. All was well. Some people screamed at the danger of having the plant around.

      Ah, yes - since the safety systems functioned, there is obviously no problem.
       
        Wrong
       
      Safety systems are circuit breakers - if nothing is wrong, if there is no problem, then they don't get tripped. But when there is a problem, they trip to prevent something far worse from happening. If they trip, something has gone wrong - by definition.
    3. Re:Is a near miss proof of danger, or of safety? by NoPantsJim · · Score: 5, Informative

      The exact reason for the 5 mile radius has to do with the errors associated with radar and how far a plane can travel in the time it takes for the radar sweep to update. It's generally 3 mile radius/1000ft vertical near airports, 5 mile radius/1000ft vertical away from airports up to flight level 290, then 5 mile radius/2000ft vertical above that.

      but yes, you're correct, it's generally a system that 'fails well'.

  27. MOD DOWN - yet another minicity fuckwad by loraksus · · Score: 1

    Can someone start permabanning these idiots?

    --
    1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcfv gbhnjmk,l.;/
  28. I am an airline Pilot by occasional+user · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Back in the day (60s) NASA did a lot of safety work and one of the things that came out of it was the scientific analysis of fatigue. The whole set of transportation rules (trucks, trains, airplane) that deal with fatigue, such as limits on duty days came from this. They identified short and long-term fatigue. Now your airline pilot is certain to be safe from a fatigue standpoint, but your surgeon might be on his 49t hour awake, but that's for another discussion. Next they determined that pilots are so in fear of getting in trouble that they keep information about mistakes to themselves. "Hey!" someone wondered. Let's take this and use it as an incentive. So they came up with a program where if you screwed up, if you told them about what happened and your recommendation to keep it from happening again, they would give you immunity from getting in trouble. A flood of these reports started coming in (like the one from the previous poster yahoo who busted airspace and blames it on a controller). Now these are anonymous. The form that comes back is a receipt with your identifying info taken off of it. But...it's not hard to tell that an Airbus 319 heading from Denver to Chicago at 9:00 at night on November 30th belongs to...Frontier Airlines. And then the pilots can be identified through their flight time...and that's about as appealing to pilots as posting their medical records on line. The rabble-rousing reporters don't understand the program, the benefits or the rationale behind it. Publishing the data isn't going to make our airspace safer, it's going to ensure a drop in participation (I don't want to see my name in the headlines...especially if I am in an accident and an investigative reporter data mines the records to find the NASA reports I made, don't think it won't happen). Most of the reports are for altitude busts (you get in trouble if you cause a "deal", or a loss of separation with another airplane), mistakenly crossing a runway when not authorized or for getting your paperwork screwed up. Interestingly, one of the first articles to come out from this debate was about a flight crew who fell asleep on the way to Denver and reported it to NASA. No, they didn't get in trouble, but a reporter figured out that it was a Frontier flight (that's why I used the example) and it's no secret who was assigned to that flight, any Frontier employee could look up the records on the computer. Do you think those guys are going to ever file a report again? Both NASA and the NTSB do a good job making recommendations. The airlines and their hand-puppet, the FAA do a very good job of ignoring them.

    1. Re:I am an airline Pilot by occasional+user · · Score: 1

      How 'come everyone else can use paragraphs, but it took mine out? I'm not a run-on kinda guy.

    2. Re:I am an airline Pilot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      a-fucking-men. Slashdot geeks: We'll leave the computers to you, you leave the flying to pilots, eh?

      Dickheads. You're no better then the "soccer moms" you always go on about. So smug you know a bit about technology. But fucking useless outside of your field of expertise.

    3. Re:I am an airline Pilot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      If you post as "Plain Old Text", it'll convert line breaks. If you post as, say, "HTML Formatted", they will not be converted.

      (This is Plain Old Text.)

    4. Re:I am an airline Pilot by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      (you get in trouble if you cause a "deal", or a loss of separation with another airplane)

      Best. Euphemism. Ever.

      In other news, a woman sues McDonald's for the loss of low temperature to her legs.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  29. Let's snuff out needless rabble. by jbwolfe · · Score: 1

    Aviation has a long history of safety. It was a perilous profession in the early days, and hanger talk saved many live before "safety" became quantified. NASA safety reports served as a means to "save your ass" if you committed an error that might get you a violation if discovered but not reported. They weren't the first. The concept is that a mistake made by one is a mistake to be made by many. All you need do was fess up and you might get a mulligan- no harm no foul (with limitations- intentional acts are not protected.) The lesson learned will be taught to those who follow- free as in speech! This specific program has ended, and regardless of how badly everyone feels NASA has dealt with public dissemination of the data, I must point out that the program ensured anonymity and this is why it worked. They never intended this program to become a public conversation piece by those outside the community. Everyone take note here- no profession uses safety data as well as aviation. Whatever you do for a living, there are lessons to learn from this profession.

    --
    Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
  30. easy solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It would work, too, but you guys are just too chickenshit and prim and proper to do it. Girlymen, smart, but afraid of a little labor action, a fight! You refuse to stand up for yourselves because you are "professionals". Bullshit, no such thing, you either work for a living, or you don't. If you work for a living, you are a "professional", so get over that nonsense. If you skim and manipulate and middleman, you are a parasite for a living. If you sit on your ass, you are a leech. Work="professional".

        You write up a simple letter, signed by hundreds of thousands of doctors, counter stamped AMA and whatever other medical orgs want to chime in. You CC this to every congress person, judge and lawyer in the nation. Fancy it up but along these lines:

    "HI, we are the doctors, remember us? You know what? We've had it, we give the fuck up. You assholes have made our jobs near impossible. We spend more time on paperwork and in your courts then we do studying, learning new techniques or actually with patients. We think this sucks. From this date forward, you particular guys are on your own for healthcare, including your viagara prescriptions....everyone else can still come in, but not you, get it? If you fix things, we might consider going back and fixing you. Your call. c-ya later jerks!"

    Totally legal, too. You can't discriminate based on sex, race, ethnicity, etc, but it says nothing about job title. Nothing at all. Do it, within a week you'd see massive healthcare reform for the better. It's called a "job action", works a charm if you actually practice solidarity. What are they going to replace you with, larry from sales?

    1. Re:easy solution by jacquesm · · Score: 1

      It's such a pity you wrote that as an AC, but that's what reading at -1 is for... I'd love for you to be credited for your idea.

      Only one question why stop at doctors ? Lets *ALL* do this.

    2. Re:easy solution by jackbird · · Score: 1
      Totally legal, too.

      Unfortunately, not ethical.

    3. Re:easy solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on what level you're considering. Unethical to turn away the individual lawyer or congresscritter that comes by the office - on an individual basis, yes. On the other hand, if the resulting reforms improve the cost & performance of the medical proffession for millions, I'd say it would be unethical *not* to do it.

      Of course, I don't trust the AMA to wield that power, once they have a taste of it, any more then I trust the UAW, etc. with what they have.

  31. What's cryptic about the data? by Jason+Pollock · · Score: 1

    You have 3 tables,

    Table 1 (746 pages):
    Column A1 - Flight Hours (as labeled)
    Column A2 - Flight Legs (as labeled)

    Based on the values in the table, I'm guessing this covers a 5-6 month period. (based on my information of a max. 80 flight hours/month).

    Table 2 (746 pages):
    Column A8 - Career Hours (as labeled)

    Table 3 (746 pages):
    Acft 1
    Acft 2
    Acft 3
    Acft 4
    Acft 5
    Acft 6

    I think it's pretty obvious that "Acft" means aircraft. The document details the flight histories of the pilots in the response set, with 1 row per pilot. However, it does not provide any informaion on the reported incident rates seen by those pilots.

    Cryptic? Not really. Incomplete? Definitely.

  32. "how to use it?" by plasmacutter · · Score: 1
    it's DATA.

    how stupid are these people they need instructions on how to "use" it.

    Reminds me of these idiots who think economics has a "goal" of maximum efficiency.

    how to find your arse
    get both hands and a flashlight and start looking
    since you need instructions on how to use data it will probably take a long time
    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  33. Youre kidding right? by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    Number 1 is a pretty hard sell at the moment because we don't really have a clue how to monetize space yet.


    you're kidding right?
    people have run estimates on metallic asteroids and valued them in hundreds of trillions of dollars
    in a more near earth application there is already a very early form of space tourism.

    The issue is not that people don't know how to monetize space, its that nobody has the guts to start up and/or invest in something so long term with such large cash outlay.

    People who created the dutch east india corporation would be very disappointed in our generation.
    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    1. Re:Youre kidding right? by roguetrick · · Score: 1

      I agree, they'd be missing the slave trade.

      --
      -The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
    2. Re:Youre kidding right? by Marcos+Eliziario · · Score: 1

      s/guts/money/g

      There, fixed for you.

      --
      Your ad could be here!
  34. Actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually Ive heard on NPR that NASA read the data wrong, so wrong in fact that it appears (falsely)that the dangers are four times as bad. So even if they showed you how they did it , the end results would be grossly overstated.

  35. C'mon! Wake up people!. by wiresquire · · Score: 1

    .... nor did it provide keys to unlock the cryptic codes used in the dataset.'"

    It's because all the keys in the datasets identify different kinds of UFOs !!

    --

    So does Anonymous Coward have good karma?

  36. Probably appropriate by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

    nor did it provide keys to unlock the cryptic codes used in the dataset

    I'm going to print out the PDF and mastrbate to it Wow, so you figured out it was encrypted porn!
    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  37. Stuck Mic by Ignis+Flatus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    if you're interested in airline safety, there's a guy named "Stuck Mic" that posts a good bit on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=stuckmic best i remember, he's either an air traffic controller(or was), and some of the problems go all the way back to the illegal controller strike back during the Reagan Administration. seems there's been an effort under way ever since to replace controllers with an automated system, with the results being that more money goes into the automation effort than actually training and paying a sufficient number of people to do the job. fwiw, i don't have a dog in this fight, just found it interesting. i'm sure there's three sides to everything. they also have a website here: http://www.stuckmic.com/

    1. Re:Stuck Mic by NoPantsJim · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You're right, there are three sides to everything, here's my side. I should mention I am about to graduate from a college with a CTI program with the goal of being a controller.

      The odds that the FAA will ever get a fully automated system off the ground are essentially zero in my opinion. There are still airspace restructuring plans from decades ago that were canceled after running way over budget and missing every single deadline. The idea that the FAA will now leap from having equipment still branded with the Civil Aeronautics Board logo (like they do now) to a state of the art computer system is laughable.

      The current stated goal of the FAA is to progress to 'Free Flight' where essentially pilots pick their flight path rather than being assigned one by ATC. Controllers then only issue commands to pilots if there is a potential conflict. If I were to start my career in ATC tomorrow, I would sincerely be shocked if it were implemented before I retired.

      But then again, we could see another aluminum shower (mid-air collision) and that's been a pretty strong motivator in the past.

  38. that G-sey feeling by epine · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I once flew out of Chicago, early 1990s, 737 IIRC, where coming up off the runway the plane banked *hard* like I've never experienced before or after. It felt like a 30 degree bank, but it was probably more like 5 degrees, the human mind tends to exaggerate slopes so badly. The G force exceeded anything I've ever felt on a runway. At the crazy angle (I was on the down-wing side) the flight attendants strapped in beside the exit doors seemed like they were a floor or two above me. I was concentrating on keeping my head centered at the top of my neck, so I didn't orient myself to ground features. People gasped, but no-one vocalized. Not even a kick in the aft to lift out of Denver on a hot summer day would compare to G-force we were pulling. The plane seemed to also pitch nose upward and climb hard. It was smooth, forceful, and disorienting. I had visions of children tearing the wings off a fly. Those wings really are amazingly strong. Then the plane smoothly returned to level flight.

    Moments later, with no hesitation at all, the pilot came onto the intercom in the most baritone lounge-chair voice you can imagine:

    "I just had a chat with air traffic who told me they would feel a lot more comfortable if I banked to the right. I said to myself 'if they're more comfortable, then I'm more comfortable' so we did. Now we're all feeling very comfortable. It should be a smooth ride into Toronto, so relax and enjoy the in-flight service."

    No doubt we were bearing toward Baltimore as he spoke and air traffic was still busy determining how to turn him around again.

    I also wondered what additional service is required when they ping the G ball for 15 seconds like that. I just found a web page that states that the g-force limit of a 737 is unknown. Fortunately, the answer wasn't recovered from the flight recorder of the plane I was on that day.

    My father was once on a flight that dumped fuel over the ocean, circled back, and landed five minutes after takeoff. I've always suspected that incidents were more frequent than the airline industry wishes to publicize. I wonder if that smooth recovery speech is part of the pilot simulator training. I wonder if he was giving us that speech while the copilot was checking out the lights that indicate the wings are indeed still attached.

    1. Re:that G-sey feeling by vijayiyer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Aircraft certificated in the Normal category by the FAA are required to withstand at least +3.8g and -1.52g. What you felt was just a steep turn. Just because the airplane is normally maneuvered to keep passengers comfortable doesn't mean that it's not capable of a lot more. I doubt you were feeling much more than 1.4g (which is all you pull in a coordinated 45banked turn).

    2. Re:that G-sey feeling by AgentPaper · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I, too, experienced a similar event on a 757, flying American from DTW to ORD in 2004. We were flying a normal approach when we suddenly pulled up, poured on the power and executed what felt like a very severe turn - things came out of the overhead bins, and the "down" wing appeared to be pointing quite sharply at the ground. (As parent poster mentioned, it was probably only a 5-10 degree bank, but it was steep enough and executed quickly enough to toss briefcases and purses across the cabin, so take that as you will.)

      Once we leveled out and the passengers stopped making noise, the pilot came on the PA, just as cool as you please, and informed us that a flight taking off had intruded into our airspace from below. ATC ordered us to evade, the other plane missed, no harm no foul.

      I've been on a lot of flights, and seen a lot of interesting mid-air maneuvers, but that one stuck in my head mostly for the pilot's degree of nonchalance after the fact.

      --
      First rule of trauma: Bleeding always stops.
    3. Re:that G-sey feeling by Buran · · Score: 1

      I sure hope that other pilot got a talking-to for putting other people in danger, as stuff falling out of overhead bins can severely injure people.

      I wonder how pathetic those latches are if they open during a sharp turn? The bins should be latched securely enough to withstand any maneuver the aircraft is capable of within design spec. Clearly, someone got cheap.

    4. Re:that G-sey feeling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly, safety factors for aircraft are much lower than for automobiles, chairs, or chin-up bars: in the range of 1.5 (as opposed to 3-5); otherwise, the things would be too heavy to fly. They rely on rigourous maintainance, training, 'smart operation' and materials analysis for safety. One side effect, however, of the primarily aluminum construction is that is rather flexible for a metal: Those wings may snap off well before hitting double their intended loading, but you'll probably have an inkling it'll happen, as they'll be displacing well over 15' by then.

    5. Re:that G-sey feeling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30 degrees of bank would be normal for low speed maneuvering. On the 737 its actually 27.5, but heh, its 30.

      Its interesting that you mention Denver, many departures out of that airport involve an immediate turn (http://airnav.com/airport/KDEN). At 15 degrees nose up and 150 kts airspeed a full bank turn can feel pretty severe, but it is indeed quite routine.

    6. Re:that G-sey feeling by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      In more general terms, the G load in a coordinated turn is just the secant of the bank angle.

      rj

    7. Re:that G-sey feeling by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Funny

      ... the bank angle.

      The bank angle, of course, being the problem so many airlines are in financial trouble nowadays.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    8. Re:that G-sey feeling by fuego451 · · Score: 1

      My father was once on a flight that dumped fuel over the ocean, circled back, and landed five minutes after takeoff.

      Reminds me of a flight I was on in Australia at the end of my R&R from Vietnam. We left Sydney on a Flying Tiger Stretch 707 headed for Cam Ranh Bay with a fuel stop in Darwin. Over the Outback, we experienced an hydraulic failure involving a control surface; the rudder, as I recall. We land in Darwin with no problem, the plane is worked on for about nine hours and we take off around midnight for Cam Ranh.

      We're thirty minutes or so out of Darwin, over ocean of course, pilot comes on the intercom, "Well fellas, looks like we didn't get our problem fixed. Please extinguish your cigarettes and we'll be heading back to Darwin." As he is saying this I glance out the starboard window to see the outboard engine on fire which is immediately extinguished. Holy shit! All that time in the bush and I'm going to die here? We circle off the coast of Darwin for about thirty minuets dumping fuel and we catch glimpses of the airport runway which is lined with the flashing red lights of emergency vehicles. We finally make a safe landing.

      Another eight or nine hours of mechanical work and we take off for Cam Ranh and this time we make it, however, upon landing the gear catches fire and we are told to stay on the aircraft until the fire is extinguished; no inflatable escape shoots back then.

      I was happy to get back in the jungle.

    9. Re:that G-sey feeling by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      My father was once on a flight that dumped fuel over the ocean, circled back, and landed five minutes after takeoff.

      Airplanes have a maximum takeoff weight, and a maximum landing weight. They are not necessarily the same. If the plane is dumping fuel over the ocean, I deduce that it was probably a transoceanic flight. The plane had a long way to go and would want to carry as much fuel as possible. Someone could get sick, and the pilot would need to turn back to the airport. The landing gear can't hold the plane and all that fuel during that one hard bump when the wheels touch down (or the brakes can't absorb all that extra kinetic energy before the end of the runway), so the pilot dumps some weight before turning around.

      The only 'incident' that may have occurred on you're fathers flight is that a very important passenger got to the airport late. Dumping fuel is SOP for whatever reason makes economic sense to the airline controllers.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    10. Re:that G-sey feeling by MeanderingMind · · Score: 1

      I'd say it probably isn't the latches that are pathetic, but the passengers who jam clearly infeasible luggage into the bins.

      --
      Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
    11. Re:that G-sey feeling by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      For what it's worth, it probably didn't occur to the pilot that the turn was particularly steep. When you get your pilot certificate, or do your once-every-two-years flight review, one of the things you have to do is demonstrate steep turns, which means well over 45 degrees, in both directions, one after another. A 30 degree turn is pretty ho-hum.

      While the g-force limit of a 737 might be unknown, it has been designed and tested to exceed by at least 150% the stress/strain requirements for a transport-category aircraft, which as I recall are +3.8/-1.5 G's.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    12. Re:that G-sey feeling by Buran · · Score: 1

      And yet, the bin completely closed, or the flight wouldn't have taken off. Once the bin is closed there's no excuse for it to open until someone pushes the button. If the bins open in midair something must be done as that's a safety issue.

    13. Re:that G-sey feeling by MeanderingMind · · Score: 1

      If the bins open in midair [snip] that's a safety issue.


      Or comedy gold.
      --
      Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
  39. No one says we shouldn't log and investigate... by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    ...each incident where safety systems had to come in to play to figure out why, and what could have been done better. I just object to declaring the system unsafe while we do so.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:No one says we shouldn't log and investigate... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      My point was the meaning of the words "unsafe" isn't the same between an objective outside observer and people working inside the system.

      If you are in any critical job like flying an airliner, or operating a nuclear reactor, or driving a warship then you might overract to these "unsafe" events to help keep people focused and fight complaciency. As long as you don't confuse the two perspectives everything works out.

  40. wow, pretty tough words. Are you responsible by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    ..for anything with a human safety associated?

    I am. Nobody is saying that we should ignore even a single case where safety systems came in to play. All should be investigated and we should understand what, if anything, should be done differently.

    That said, humans make mistakes. Parts fail. Random chance bring strange circumstances together. I'm a firefighter, trained in hazmat, confined space rescue, extrication, rope rescue, ice water rescue, Rapid Intervention, and half a dozen other kinds of emergency response. I'm quite used to working both with multiple safety systems in place and occasionally in situations which simply cannot be made safe. Sometimes, I am responsible for the safety of the general public in places.

    Here's the thing - we have safety plans in place which overlap and provide wide margins whenever possible. We do this because stuff happens. You can't always predict or plan for which stuff will happen. Fires do not happen only in poorly maintained homes with inattentive owners. They can happen nearly anywhere, and at any time.

    When safety systems work, we don't see that as a sign of danger, we see it as a confirmation that the safety systems were necessary. We still review each incident to see what could or should have been done better -- but that doesn't mean we stop taking any action because we declare things as unsafe.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  41. Re:wow, pretty tough words. Are you responsible by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
    I was responsible for such systems as a submariner in the USN, as well as having studied safety issues as an interested (and experienced/knowledgeable) amateur.
     

    Nobody is saying that we should ignore even a single case where safety systems came in to play. All should be investigated and we should understand what, if anything, should be done differently.

    That's the exact opposite of what your original post strongly implies. An implication which you then repeat in the balance of this message.
     

    When safety systems work, we don't see that as a sign of danger, we see it as a confirmation that the safety systems were necessary.

    That attitude is what killed the astronauts on Challenger... The safety systems (the backup O-rings) held - so they continued to fly.
     
    When safety systems are called on to operate - something has failed. Period.
     
    Your attitude arises from the fact that your safety experience is in single discrete incidents and any safety issues are over in a few hours - the fire is out, the rescue completed, etc... It is entirely inappropriate to the domains (airlines, nuclear power) to which you attempt to apply it, which are not discrete events but rather are ongoing operation across years or decades.
  42. Re:wow, pretty tough words. Are you responsible by CFD339 · · Score: 2, Insightful


    Why is it that you can't see a difference between internally investigating and correcting something as a routine review process and publicly declaring an entire industry to be rife with major safety issues and destined for disaster?

    Clearly they are two different things.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  43. Yes and no. by jd · · Score: 1
    Yes, I concur that America is a hyper-litiguous society, suing everyone and everything in sight for no apparent reason. It is one of the most despised aspects of America, as far as other nations are concerned. Any notion of reasonableness has been abandoned, in favour of who can lynch who in the courts.

    No, I do not agree that that is justification for any kind of avoidance. Systems do not change by avoiding the abuses and failures within them. Systems change by confronting the flaws head-on and continuing to do so until the system has no alternative but to change. Individuals may lose - will lose - but since individuals will ultimately lose anyway as things stand (you're open to frivolous lawsuits, the same way medical practitioners are, and face higher costs and lower returns for exactly the same reasons). America exists on a bubbling stew of paranoia, delusion and get-rich-quick schemes. But, then, to be fair so do many other nations. However, bowing to the paranoia and delusions will not save you from them. Rather, you are feeding them by doing so.

    Am I suggesting the extremely high-risk tactic of pilots throwing themselves at the wolves until the wolves are so sickened by the carnage they cease to be wolves? Yes. It's the only way. There is no other, at least none that history has ever shown. And, yes, historically this technique has been used quite successfully in many cases where you had those who were afraid to have a voice.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  44. I love how pilots lie ... by unsigned+integer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    to those of us on the plane. One time, flying out of MSP, we pulled on the runway to takeoff, and then sharply pulled back off to the left. Since I was on the left side of the plane, I looked out the window. Low and behold, another large jet just about to land on us, coming in for a landing. Wow.

    The pilot comes on, and says some bullshit about weather ahead and we're going to wait a few more minutes. I wanted to yell out 'Someone nearly got us killed, you lying sack of crap!', but likely that would get me thrown off the plane.

    So whenever I hear the pilot come on, and tell some shit about weather or turbulence, or why the plane is delayed, I don't believe a word of it now. I think that's the part that pisses me off most, to know we're not being dealt with at an adult and honest level.

    1. Re:I love how pilots lie ... by tcolberg · · Score: 1

      Can all the people on the plane be expected to react in an adult manner if they were treated as such? I think that's expecting a bit much of the average American, especially when there's a hundred people sitting in a cramped metal tube.

    2. Re:I love how pilots lie ... by occasional+user · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, except that you're probably full of it. There probably was weather, there was a guy on final and they had him exit the runway.

      Tell me there sparky, how would a pilot know that an airplane is about to land on him from behind? The rear-view mirrors?

      And why would the guy get off the runway instead of just taking off?

      Per usual, you back-seat pilots are a pain in the ass.

      Let's say New York Center (ATC) has a thunderstorm right over one of the airways. So Center puts 20 mile separation between departure (read: "ATC delay, weather")

      Now a sparky like you comes up to the pilot and says, "Why are you lying about the weather? I just called my sister and it's clear in New York. You guys always lie!"

      Really, the story is, "You back-seat pilots are always dipshits. Go back and play with your portable GPS some more."

    3. Re:I love how pilots lie ... by unsigned+integer · · Score: 1

      "Tell me there sparky, how would a pilot know that an airplane is about to land on him from behind? The rear-view mirrors?"

      I'm assuming that tower/control would have said something like "Pull the fuck off, there's a plane right about to land on you". Or perhaps something nicer, but I'm guessing there would have been some *urgency* involved in the discussion, given how close it was.

      "And why would the guy get off the runway instead of just taking off?"

      I'm wondering if he could have even gotten up to speed or not, since the plane behind us was literally ~15 seconds behind. Certainly far closer than we should have been. Someone fucked up. Either the pilot, by pulling onto the runway, or the tower, for not paying attention to the birds they had coming in.

      What's your damage? Are you a pilot? Taking things you read on the internet personally? Let me know how that works out for you, "sparky".

  45. Re:wow, pretty tough words. Are you responsible by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

    The two are considerably different, they also are not the topic of discussion between us.

  46. That's a troll by LandruBek · · Score: 1

    It's not the engineers. Engineers are required to take english classes for their degrees, while no one is required to study any engineering.
    Sour grapes?
    --
    $META_SIG_JOKE
  47. Highway Safety? by Vast303 · · Score: 1

    I would love to see a similar type of report applied to cars and highways. Imagine how scary that would read. I see terrible drivers and conditions on the road everyday. I have always found it odd that the intense focus on safety in the aviation and aerospace industries aren't applied to road safety. I think road safety is something the society tends to ignore.

  48. Article is flamebait and (kind of) a dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I defy anyone to authoratatively back up the claim that NASA intended to destroy the results. The original data, yes, but not the results. They had always intended to keep it secret for the mentioned reason of hurting airline confidence, as well as because they promised those they surveyed the results would be fully anonymous.

    We discussed this survey a couple months ago when NASA denied the original FOI request for the survey to be released. That created a political backlash leading to Griffin having it released.

    That original story submission was likewise flawed because it also equated the perception of safety with actual safety. It also failed to recognize that general aviation was included in the survey, and from talking to several GA pilots, my understanding is close calls are more frequent in that field, which is much more loosely controlled. Also, a close call is not an accident, so while it may be a sign that changes need to be made, and sometiems are in serious cases, it does not statistically affect your safety.*

    The article seeks to create alarmism without a cause (shame, once again, on the Associated Press). The actual case is that while there is still some room for improvement (gee, humans are involved, big surprise there) in the air traffic control system in the US, it is incredibly safe.

    About 2% of Americans die in automobile accidents...ie, your odds are 1 in 50 of dying in a car. Based on the number of fatalities in the airline industry versus trips for the last 20 years, you would have to take a little over 100,000 flights (4 per day for 70 years) to equal that risk. That's about as many flights as most people take car trips. So flying is about as dangerous as driving per trip, but per hour or per mile it is far safer.


    * Relevant joke:
    A physicist, an engineer, and a statistician are all out hunting. They spot a deer and the physicist fires first, missing 1 meter to the right. The engineer takes the second shot, missing 1 meter to the left. Seeing this, the statistician jumps up in excitement and yells "we got him!"